Gurkha Pensions

Roger Williams Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) is quite right, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) says from a sedentary position, it was in fact 22 years. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire goes to the heart of this: we are comparing apples and oranges when we try to compare Gurkha pensions with British service pensions. They are separate and different, so the key is not equality but fairness. That is the spirit in which our inquiry has been undertaken.

Clearly, there can be no retrospective change to terms and conditions of employment, but I ask that the Government look carefully at the adequacy of the Gurkha pension, particularly in relation to the Indian Gurkha pension and their additional benefits and the cost of living in Nepal. We want a commitment that that will continue to be held in review.

The all-party group was more concerned, however, about those Gurkha veterans who receive no pension. There are a good number of them. Some are veterans of the second world war who left long before the introduction of the Gurkha pension, and in addition some 7,000 veterans receive nothing as they did not complete 15 years of service. We are not satisfied that all those veterans are being treated fairly and we believe that they should be afforded the dignity and honour that service in the British Army should bring.

At the moment, these people are dependent on Gurkha welfare pensions of some £40 a month, administered by the Gurkha Welfare Trust. The all-party group believes that those who were made redundant or unfairly dismissed should have a formal entitlement to a pension, as should those who were medically retired. I note that the Government are in receipt of LIBOR money that is being used to fund services for our veterans, so we would ask that the Government consider making a generous endowment to the Gurkha Welfare Trust to enable it to support those veterans more effectively. We also want them to consider whether it is appropriate that those who were made redundant and were unable to serve 15 years through no choice of their own should be given some formal entitlement to a pension.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; if I catch your eye later, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will pay tribute to her for the work that she has done. I believe we were also told that some Gurkhas who are now resettled in this country would prefer to stay in Nepal if they had a pension that made it easier for them and their families to live there.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend makes exactly the point that brought those issues to the fore. The pension terms that we give the Gurkhas are generous for living in Nepal, but not for living here, and they now have the right of settlement. That has brought with it some financial incentives to come to this country. We need to look at that issue in a more mature manner, because there is an additional cost to the taxpayer and it is not necessarily good for the welfare of those people if they move here just because it is financially desirable to do so.

That brings me to the points that I really want to make. Gurkha pensioners receive an income, but if they move to the UK they have access to pension credit, housing benefit and all our public services. We think that the Government could achieve a revenue saving by spending more on Gurkha pensions, thereby saving on welfare bills. That could make the issue hugely complex, but it brings home one of the unintended consequences of extending the right to settlement.

One aspect that we think worth considering—it might be a solution—is whether Gurkhas should have been able to build up national insurance credits, which would have entitled them to a pension. Before 1997, Gurkha soldiers were denied that opportunity. However, Gurkhas were issued with a dummy national insurance number. Many have been surprised subsequently to learn that they have not built up their contributions. Had they been able to do so, they would have generated credits towards a UK state pension, which would have been exportable to Nepal and removed that financial incentive to come here. That would bear examination by the Government; at best it would be revenue-neutral, but it might generate a revenue saving.

We can show why it is financially lucrative for Gurkha veterans to move to the UK. We heard from one veteran who was medically retired after eight years’ service following serious injuries sustained in the Falklands war. He advised us that he received just £33 per month disablement pension, but on moving to the UK he can claim benefits far in excess of that. Furthermore, he receives free health care, as opposed to having had to pay for any health care he might have received in Nepal.

Most Gurkha migrants are in work and the impact of their settlement here is positive, but we are concerned for the elderly Gurkhas with no pension who are selling up all they have in Nepal with only the prospect of a life on benefits here, away from their friends and families. Naturally, many have congregated where there is a critical mass of retired Gurkhas, in particular in Aldershot. That is adding significantly to the burden on local services and is not conducive to the integration of that migrant community. It is not good for the reputation of the migrant Gurkhas elsewhere in the country who live quite cohesively and, indeed, are much valued and loved. I say that with reference to my constituency of Thurrock, where we have a good number of Gurkha families settled who are well established and much loved.

However, it is not good for elderly veterans to settle here just because they have no access to a pension. Many of them do not speak English and they have left their families behind. I am advised that there are 1,000 widows here who have come with the expectation of bringing their families in due course. That will not be possible. Other elderly Gurkhas live on benefits and send money back home, and some are persuaded of the view that with more and more Gurkhas settling, it is only a matter of time before the pension is equalised. They are being given false hope. For their welfare, we need to be quite clear with them by addressing all their grievances, one way or another.

Our report contains a number of recommendations on those issues and a number of others, including whether we are doing enough to provide health care facilities in Nepal for veterans. I hope that when we submit the report the Minister will engage with it constructively, as she has throughout our inquiry. I am sure she agrees that it is only right that we give appropriate challenge to how we are dealing with the issues surrounding our Gurkha veterans, to ensure that this Government and this country do right by people who have given service to our country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I, too, thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing time on the Floor of the House to debate this important subject. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) for the extraordinary work she and her office did—and, I understand, that of my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins)—in organising the inquiry. The logistics of organising it were quite immense. I guess that more than 200 people attended some of the hearings. It was a magnificent sight to see serving and veteran Gurkhas in the Committee Rooms on the floor above the Chamber.

Many of the subjects addressed by the inquiry report have already been mentioned in hon. Members’ contributions, but what brings together many of our interests is that we have Gurkhas in our constituencies. In Brecon and Radnor, based around the old garrison town of Brecon, we have the Mandalay company of Gurkhas, which is a demonstration unit for the training of senior non-commissioned officers in the British Army. Much of the training takes place in Sennybridge or up on the Epynt ranges. The Gurkha soldiers act both as forces to be commanded by the senior NCOs, or as attack forces so that the senior NCOs can organise defences. The Gurkhas play a very valuable role in ensuring that our NCOs in the British Army are of the highest calibre and quality.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) mentioned the consequences of resettlement, and we certainly have some of the same consequences in Brecon, although not on the same scale. Seeing elderly Gurkhas walking around the streets of Brecon, unable to understand where they are or to communicate with the rest of the community, is quite distressing. The Gurkhas are in general very welcome in Brecon, and their children are certainly very welcome in our schools. If I may put it this way, Brecon and Radnorshire does not have a very ethnically diverse community, so having Gurkha children in school is a real advantage to our schoolchildren.

The Gurkhas have been given the freedom of the borough of Brecon. Every year they march through Brecon in a wonderful ceremony, in which they bear arms—they are allowed to do so, having been given the freedom of the borough—and afterwards we are entertained by a display of dancing by Gurkha soldiers and children, which provides a real element of cohesion.

The more elderly Gurkhas who come to Brecon, without the ability to speak English, certainly have great difficulty in dealing with benefits and such issues, and that can be quite distressing. I have tried, although not with my hon. Friend’s success, to get extra funds for a support officer for the Gurkhas.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

My hon. Friend is making a very important point. The £1.5 million that came to Rushmoor was not exclusively for Rushmoor. The council, particularly its chief executive, Andrew Lloyd, has done a huge amount of work to try to use some of the money to help other councils that are similarly affected. I cannot promise anything, but if my hon. Friend would like to write me a note, I will see what I can do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams]

That is most helpful. I dare not mention the Barnett formula in this debate, but I was wondering whether such money might flow into Wales. I thank my hon. Friend for his very kind offer.

The major subject of the report was the equalisation of pensions. There is no point trying to skate around it: like other hon. Members, I find it very difficult to recommend a move towards equalising pensions, because it is very hard retrospectively to alter pension arrangements that were entered into voluntarily by people when they were recruited into the Gurkha regiments.

The report mentioned a number of difficult issues, which are obviously of real concern to Gurkha veterans, that I think the Government could do something about. If the veterans were funded by some of the LIBOR money that is meant to be used to support the work of the military covenant, that would be very well received by the Gurkhas. Let me run quickly through such issues.

[Damian Collins]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the inquiry highlighted a number of terms and conditions that seem extremely archaic? For example, it was not until the 1990s that Gurkhas were allowed to marry non-Gurkhas.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend is quite right. That is a point that I was going to come on to. Not only were Gurkhas not allowed to marry non-Gurkha women; if they did, they were discharged from the Army and, as a result, had no pension at all. That affects some of the Gurkha veterans that my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock mentioned.

We have an arrangement with the Sultan of Brunei, who runs a very light-touch taxation system. Our Gurkha soldiers, being based in Brunei, were not liable to tax, but the Ministry of Defence took some money off their pay in management fees. That was equivalent to a tax. The MOD could look at that again, because it was iniquitous. Gurkhas serving in this country were given dummy national insurance numbers, but they did not get the benefits that a national insurance number and paying national insurance in this country should generate.

Another issue is health care in Nepal. Although the pension of the Gurkhas in Nepal was increased to address that issue, they have to pay for their health care. As I understand it, Gurkhas in the Indian army do not have to pay for their health care. The Ministry of Defence could look at that issue as well.

During the evidence to the inquiry, there was criticism of the Gurkha Welfare Trust and its work in Nepal. I have talked to a constituent who was quite senior in the trust, but he said that he was out of touch with what was going on at the moment and referred me to somebody else. However, I have not had time to talk to that gentleman yet. The criticism was made that the funds of the Gurkha Welfare Trust were not used entirely for the benefit of Gurkha soldiers in Nepal and their families. A review of the work of the Gurkha Welfare Trust would perhaps not be inappropriate.

Gurkhas were encouraged to invest in Equitable Life to increase their pensions. I wonder whether the Gurkhas who did invest in Equitable Life have received the benefits that the Government have given to other people who invested in it to compensate them for their losses, especially if they were advised by the MOD or some other organisation to save through that route.

Once again, we come back to the main grievance of the Gurkha people, which is the equalisation of pensions. There are some quite young Gurkha retirees in Brecon who are in good employment, as the hon. Member for Aldershot described. They tell me that they were senior NCOs or warrant officers in the Gurkha regiment, but because only part of their service was after 1997, the pensions that they receive are a lot lower than the pensions of people who were in British regiments. They are really aggrieved about that, as one can understand. They put their lives on the line for this country, yet they are not getting the same rewards as many of their fellow soldiers.

It is difficult for the inquiry or the MOD to make a move at the moment because there is an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. As far as I am concerned, the matter is in limbo and it would be difficult for anybody to come to a conclusion. There is much in the report and the work that we have done that will be welcomed by the Gurkhas, but their great concern is that there will be no move to equalise pensions.

Defence Reform Bill

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 29th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

I appreciate and reciprocate that sentiment.

Let me now deal with the Lords amendments. They deal with all three elements of a Bill that introduces a new and significantly stronger regime for the management of single-source contracts, and makes important legislative changes that will enable us to modernise and make better use of our reserve forces. There is a great deal of support for those measures in all parts of the House, as was evident when we discussed all its previous stages here. The Bill also includes the measures that are needed to help an effective Government-owned contractor-operated organisation to manage defence equipment and support should a future Government decide to proceed with such an option. I shall return to that shortly.

These are all Government amendments, which were made following detailed consideration of the Bill both in this House and in the Lords. Although they deal with different parts of the Bill, they have a common theme: they either provide Parliament with further information relating to the implementation of defence policy, or strengthen parliamentary oversight of future legislation. That, I think, is right, and it reflects the Government’s commitment to ensuring that Parliament has a greater role in the scrutiny of the Executive. The amendments demonstrate that we have listened to the concerns that were raised about issues covered by the Bill, particularly in the other place, and that we have responded accordingly.

Lords amendment 6 fulfils a commitment given on Report in this House, on 20 November, to make it a statutory requirement to report annually on the state of the reserve forces, while Lords amendment 7 reflects the debate in the other place about parliamentary involvement in any future decision to proceed with a GoCo proposal requiring the provisions in part 1 of the Bill. The amendments will strengthen the parliamentary oversight of future defence plans, and I hope that they will be widely welcomed.

Lords amendments 1 to 5 relate to part 2, which concerns single-source procurement. They were made in response to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report on the Bill, which was published on 20 December last year. I am grateful to the Committee for its report, and for the excellent work that it does in ensuring that any proposed delegated powers are appropriate.

The Committee recommended that the first set of single-source contract regulations should be debated and agreed by Parliament. It also recommended that certain of the regulations—namely those relating to the definition of a qualifying defence contract and to the penalty amounts applied under clause 32 of the Bill—should always be subject to the affirmative procedure. Those recommendations are reflected in Lords amendment 5, and Lords amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4 make the necessary consequential changes that arise from that amendment.

Lords amendment 6 would require reserve associations to report annually to the Secretary of State on the condition of the volunteer reserve forces, and for their reports to be laid before Parliament. The reports would include the associations’ assessment both of the capabilities of the reserve forces, and of the provision made in relation to the mental welfare of their members and former members. The amendment delivers on the commitment given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on Report in this House last November. Members will recall that we had a substantial debate at that stage, initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier)—it is good to see him in the Chamber—about the state of our reserve forces, and the need to report regularly to Parliament on the issue. The amendment enshrines in law the requirement to produce such a report.

Members may be interested to know that on 10 April I had the privilege of attending the West Midlands Reserve Forces and Cadets Association annual dinner. Their knowledge and enthusiasm for the reserves was palpable and I am glad we will have such expertise reporting to the Secretary of State on an annual basis as a result of this amendment.

At the dinner, Defence’s most senior reservist, Major General John Crackett, spoke eloquently and persuasively of the reservists’ contribution to our nation’s defence in the past century and the importance this Government have attached to revitalising and expanding the reserves during this century.

Last weekend’s helicopter crash, which unfortunately I have already had to refer to today, underscores the fact that, tragically, 31 reservists have paid the ultimate price in the service of their country since 2003.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I thank the Minister for paying tribute to the five men who were lost in the tragic helicopter accident over the weekend, in particular Lance Corporal Oliver Thomas who used to work for me. He is a fine example of the very talented young people we have in our reserves and the contribution they make to the British armed forces.

[Mr Dunne]

I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has joined us. Unfortunately, he missed my tribute to Lance Corporal Thomas. I pass my sympathies to him and his colleagues, and his family and friends, on this tragic loss.

Lords amendment 7 will provide Parliament with information on the options for reforming Defence Equipment and Support before any order commencing part 1 of the Bill can be made. As Members will recall, part 1 provides the legislation needed to enable any GoCo solution for reform of DE&S to work effectively. This option is not being pursued at present, and will not be taken forward in the near future, but we think it right that the necessary legislation remains on the statute book in case a future Government, of whatever colour, decide to go down that route.

This amendment follows a substantial debate in the other place about the level of parliamentary oversight required before any future Government could proceed with a GoCo for DE&S that would require the provisions in part 1. As a result of that debate, Lords amendment 7 would require the Secretary of State to publish a report on the options for carrying out the defence procurement activity being undertaken by DE&S before laying the draft affirmative order commencing part 1. The report would need to cover any arrangements for a GoCo and any other options that had been considered, including the option of the new DE&S that is currently being put in place. This information will ensure that Parliament can have an informed debate on the reform of DE&S before agreeing to bring part 1 into force.

The amendment to Lords amendment 7, tabled by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) —with whom I had the pleasure of serving on the Committee and who conducted herself with considerable distinction—would make it a requirement for a future Government to produce the report on the options for reforming DE&S at least 12 weeks before any order commencing part 1 is laid before Parliament. While on the surface this amendment might seem reasonable, I think it is unnecessary and would unduly constrain a future Government. Amendment 7 already places a statutory requirement on a future Government to produce a report and sets out what that report must contain—and it is most likely to take the form of a White Paper. To place such an obligation on a future Government is itself unusual, and we are aware of no other examples where a commencement order has such requirements attached to it. As such, it represents a major concession by the Government and demonstrates that we have listened carefully to the concerns expressed in the House of Lords.

We have therefore already gone a significant way towards ensuring that Parliament has detailed information to enable it to consider these matters, and there is no need to go further. Although I would expect any such report to be published in good time to enable Parliament to debate whether part 1 should be commenced, it is impossible at this point to predict the exact circumstances in which a decision to proceed with a GoCo might be made. Of course, if Opposition Members were to find themselves in government in the future—that is most unlikely in the immediate future—they could publish the report whenever they wish, but I think it is a step too far to put a legal time limit on the production of such a report; I simply do not think it is the sort of thing we should be setting out in legislation.

No doubt the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View will argue that without such a time limit a future Government might try to rush through proceeding with a GoCo—that, of course, will be up to her if she is in this post in a future Government—but that fails to take into account the reality of how these decisions are made or indeed the recent history of the time it took to go through the commercial process in looking for a GoCo solution. The need for a robust commercial process will mean that any such decision will not be taken quickly and that there will be announcements and discussions at each stage along the way.

The last competition, for example, took nearly nine months from the issue of the contract notice in April 2013 until the receipt of detailed bids in November last year. That helps to convince me that Parliament will have ample opportunity to consider and debate any proposals to move to a GoCo well in advance of any order commencing part 1 and we should not be placing arbitrary time limits into statute just for the sake of it. Placing such a time constraint in the Bill may add to uncertainty around the commercial process. The Government will therefore be resisting the amendment to Lords amendment 7.

Oral Answers to Questions

Roger Williams Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

I am glad the hon. Lady asked me to comment on that. We are engaged across the supply chain in seeking to extract maximum efficiencies for the taxpayer from MOD procurement. I am engaged in SME conferences with the defence industry right across the country. Indeed, I intend to come to Plymouth in the not-too-distant future, and the hon. Lady may like to join me.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

5. What his future plans are for the defence estate in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Andrew Murrison)]

Wales is at the very heart of our defence effort and will continue to be so. HQ Wales infantry brigade in Brecon will convert to an adaptable force brigade HQ in situ, and redevelopment work will take place at St Athan. In addition, military training will continue at Sennybridge.

[Roger Williams]

I thank the Minister for that reply and I agree that facilities in Wales are essential for the training of our armed forces. The regimental museum based in Brecon, which is so important to veterans, has been assisted thanks to fundraising by a charity led by Mrs Dorcas Cresswell and Mrs Elaine Stephens. Will the Minister meet that charity to see whether ownership of the museum could be transferred to it so that it can better attract funds?

[Dr Murrison]

I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is supporting that because museums large and small are extraordinarily important. As he will know, the Ministry of Defence supports the National Army Museum at one end of the scale, but he is right to say that regimental museums at the other end are also vital. I hope that the good work he has described will continue. Out of interest, I would—of course—be more than happy to meet that charity, but as he will understand, I must be cautious about providing monetary support, which is probably better sourced elsewhere.

Oral Answers to Questions

Roger Williams Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Francois]

As I have already made plain to the House, I am confident that we can meet those targets, but taking nothing for granted, this Friday I am going down to the new Army recruiting centre at Upavon to see the recruiting process at work for myself. I think that I will be even more confident when I get back.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

T8. In drawing up plans for the return of military equipment from Afghanistan, what account has the Ministry of Defence taken of the equipment that the Afghan army will need to carry out its challenging duties in the future?

[Mr Robathan]

We have yet to decide on any gifting to the Afghan army, but obviously the Afghan army is our ally. We are proceeding on withdrawing equipment from Afghanistan as we withdraw numbers of personnel from the country, but we have yet to decide on anything about gifting.

Deployment to Mali

Roger Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I think that we have an absolute duty to intervene wherever there is a threat to Britain’s national security and the security of Britain’s interests around the world. This is exactly such a case. This is a well-judged, well-leveraged intervention that will deliver efficiently a result that is in Britain’s national interests.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I am sure that everyone welcomes the fact that Malian and French troops entered Timbuktu without resistance, preventing further damage to its people and fabric. Nevertheless, the city is in desperate need of support to rebuild its medical and educational facilities and its local economy. Will the Secretary of State ensure that British training and advice are given to Malian and African troops on how best to work with agencies to provide them with security and safety so that they can carry out their work?

[Mr Hammond]

My right hon. Friend the International Development Secretary is heavily engaged in activities in Mali. I suspect that many people in this country thought that Timbuktu was a mythical place until it popped up on their television screens three days ago. My hon. Friend talks about an urgent need to rebuild medical and educational facilities. This city has not been occupied by rebel forces for years; they were only there for a few days. However, he is right that there is an urgent need to provide development support to towns and cities in the north of Mali, where the level of economic development is very low. I know that that is a focus of my right hon. Friend the International Development Secretary.