(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Gurkha pensions and terms of employment.
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for making time to debate the issue of Gurkha pensions and other issues. This is the first time in this Parliament that we have had the chance to consider Gurkha issues, in contrast to the attention they received in the previous Parliament. Last year, the all-party group on Gurkha welfare began an inquiry into the outstanding Gurkha grievances, with a particular focus on pensions. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) for their support during the inquiry. I pay tribute to Deepak Maskey and the Satyagraha committee, who have engaged with the inquiry with passion and professionalism and have been powerful advocates. They have engaged positively with the institutions of our democracy to make their case and I hope that these issues will now be considered in the spirit of mature dialogue, not least because they will feel that they are being heard and not ignored.
Before we complete our inquiry and submit our report to the Government before the end of the year, we wish to seek the views of the House on these matters. It is a shame that other issues going on in the kingdom might mean that one or two Members are not in the Chamber today, given the level of interest in this issue. It is particularly important that we consider these questions now, not least because the extension of the right to settlement has brought some of the outstanding issues to the fore.
The critical point is about the Gurkha pension and the case for equality. Today’s Gurkha soldiers join the British Army with the same arrangements as British soldiers, whereas those who served before 1997 did not. They claim that they are not being treated equally and that there are two classes of Gurkha veteran, whereas the Ministry of Defence states that it has honoured the terms and conditions under which the Gurkhas were recruited. Those positions are both correct, if diametrically opposed, and it is our challenge as parliamentarians to establish what is fair and what our obligations are to these men who served our country, particularly in view of the military covenant, which gives us obligations to all our Army veterans.
The basis on which the Gurkhas are recruited into the British Army is governed by the tripartite agreement with India and Nepal that established the Gurkhas as an integral part of the British Army, not as mercenaries. The agreement also enshrines parity for Gurkha soldiers with the pay code of the Indian army and states that on completion of service they would return to Nepal. At the time the tripartite agreement was agreed that was a reasonable assumption, but over time, as Britain’s global footprint changed, more Gurkha soldiers found themselves based in the UK. With limited opportunities to work in Nepal at the end of their service, they increasingly chose to settle here and Gurkha terms and conditions did not keep pace with that change. That is regrettable and has led us to where we are now.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and put on record the House’s view that she has been an amazing champion of the Gurkhas in all she has done. Although we owe a huge debt to them, does she agree that the inquiry she has led so ably on a cross-party basis and today’s debate are an opportunity for us properly to address the issues that are concerning us in the report?
Jackie Doyle-Price
Absolutely, and that is very much the spirit in which we have approached the inquiry. We have tried to understand the issues from a Gurkha perspective, but we want to hear from other Members about the wider perspective. Ultimately, we are talking about issues that will impact on the whole British Army and that will have a bearing on the future of the Gurkha regiment in the British Army, and I am sure we all wish to retain that, as we are soon to celebrate 200 years of Gurkha service and we hope to have more. We must also be conscious that we are the guardians of the taxpayers’ pound. Anything we do to address any grievances must bear all those principles in mind, and I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention.
Approximately 20,000 veterans are in receipt of Gurkha pensions. The Gurkha pension scheme was established in 1947 by royal warrant and is the oldest pension scheme in the armed forces. It should be noted that pensions for British service personnel were not introduced until 1975. The scheme was designed to give Gurkhas sufficient to live on in retirement in Nepal and was paid on completion of 15 years’ service from the point of exit. That is an important principle to bear in mind. The fact that it was established indicates a desire at the time to do right by Gurkha veterans as they retired to Nepal, recognising that on their return there would be limited employment opportunities. It was, dare I say, extremely consistent with our obligations under the military covenant.
The pensioners are today typically on incomes of about £223 a month. We are advised that that can purchase a good standard of living in Nepal, although for those who have settled in the UK it is clearly inadequate. It is those pensioners who believe they should be entitled to the same level of pension as British service personnel.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I, too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the magnificent work she has done in seeking to find a just solution to this problem. She mentions that the Gurkha pension scheme was available on the completion of 15 years of service. Am I right in thinking that at the same time the British Army pension scheme was available at 20 years of service, thereby giving the Gurkha soldier a significant time advantage over the rest of the British Army?
Jackie Doyle-Price
My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) is quite right, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) says from a sedentary position, it was in fact 22 years. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire goes to the heart of this: we are comparing apples and oranges when we try to compare Gurkha pensions with British service pensions. They are separate and different, so the key is not equality but fairness. That is the spirit in which our inquiry has been undertaken.
Clearly, there can be no retrospective change to terms and conditions of employment, but I ask that the Government look carefully at the adequacy of the Gurkha pension, particularly in relation to the Indian Gurkha pension and their additional benefits and the cost of living in Nepal. We want a commitment that that will continue to be held in review.
The all-party group was more concerned, however, about those Gurkha veterans who receive no pension. There are a good number of them. Some are veterans of the second world war who left long before the introduction of the Gurkha pension, and in addition some 7,000 veterans receive nothing as they did not complete 15 years of service. We are not satisfied that all those veterans are being treated fairly and we believe that they should be afforded the dignity and honour that service in the British Army should bring.
At the moment, these people are dependent on Gurkha welfare pensions of some £40 a month, administered by the Gurkha Welfare Trust. The all-party group believes that those who were made redundant or unfairly dismissed should have a formal entitlement to a pension, as should those who were medically retired. I note that the Government are in receipt of LIBOR money that is being used to fund services for our veterans, so we would ask that the Government consider making a generous endowment to the Gurkha Welfare Trust to enable it to support those veterans more effectively. We also want them to consider whether it is appropriate that those who were made redundant and were unable to serve 15 years through no choice of their own should be given some formal entitlement to a pension.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; if I catch your eye later, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will pay tribute to her for the work that she has done. I believe we were also told that some Gurkhas who are now resettled in this country would prefer to stay in Nepal if they had a pension that made it easier for them and their families to live there.
Jackie Doyle-Price
My hon. Friend makes exactly the point that brought those issues to the fore. The pension terms that we give the Gurkhas are generous for living in Nepal, but not for living here, and they now have the right of settlement. That has brought with it some financial incentives to come to this country. We need to look at that issue in a more mature manner, because there is an additional cost to the taxpayer and it is not necessarily good for the welfare of those people if they move here just because it is financially desirable to do so.
That brings me to the points that I really want to make. Gurkha pensioners receive an income, but if they move to the UK they have access to pension credit, housing benefit and all our public services. We think that the Government could achieve a revenue saving by spending more on Gurkha pensions, thereby saving on welfare bills. That could make the issue hugely complex, but it brings home one of the unintended consequences of extending the right to settlement.
One aspect that we think worth considering—it might be a solution—is whether Gurkhas should have been able to build up national insurance credits, which would have entitled them to a pension. Before 1997, Gurkha soldiers were denied that opportunity. However, Gurkhas were issued with a dummy national insurance number. Many have been surprised subsequently to learn that they have not built up their contributions. Had they been able to do so, they would have generated credits towards a UK state pension, which would have been exportable to Nepal and removed that financial incentive to come here. That would bear examination by the Government; at best it would be revenue-neutral, but it might generate a revenue saving.
We can show why it is financially lucrative for Gurkha veterans to move to the UK. We heard from one veteran who was medically retired after eight years’ service following serious injuries sustained in the Falklands war. He advised us that he received just £33 per month disablement pension, but on moving to the UK he can claim benefits far in excess of that. Furthermore, he receives free health care, as opposed to having had to pay for any health care he might have received in Nepal.
Most Gurkha migrants are in work and the impact of their settlement here is positive, but we are concerned for the elderly Gurkhas with no pension who are selling up all they have in Nepal with only the prospect of a life on benefits here, away from their friends and families. Naturally, many have congregated where there is a critical mass of retired Gurkhas, in particular in Aldershot. That is adding significantly to the burden on local services and is not conducive to the integration of that migrant community. It is not good for the reputation of the migrant Gurkhas elsewhere in the country who live quite cohesively and, indeed, are much valued and loved. I say that with reference to my constituency of Thurrock, where we have a good number of Gurkha families settled who are well established and much loved.
However, it is not good for elderly veterans to settle here just because they have no access to a pension. Many of them do not speak English and they have left their families behind. I am advised that there are 1,000 widows here who have come with the expectation of bringing their families in due course. That will not be possible. Other elderly Gurkhas live on benefits and send money back home, and some are persuaded of the view that with more and more Gurkhas settling, it is only a matter of time before the pension is equalised. They are being given false hope. For their welfare, we need to be quite clear with them by addressing all their grievances, one way or another.
Our report contains a number of recommendations on those issues and a number of others, including whether we are doing enough to provide health care facilities in Nepal for veterans. I hope that when we submit the report the Minister will engage with it constructively, as she has throughout our inquiry. I am sure she agrees that it is only right that we give appropriate challenge to how we are dealing with the issues surrounding our Gurkha veterans, to ensure that this Government and this country do right by people who have given service to our country.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
I pay tribute to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) and to the terrific work she has done leading the inquiry on Gurkha pensions and welfare, which has been a considerable piece of work. Hon. Members will know that all-party groups do not have the resources of Select Committees or formal Committees of the House; nor do they have huge secretariats and teams to support them, so holding such an inquiry is a considerable undertaking. I congratulate her on that.
Jackie Doyle-Price
My hon. Friend is being too generous. He generously made his office available to support me and I am very grateful for that.
Damian Collins
It is kind of my hon. Friend to mention that. I thank Daniel Kirkpatrick from my office, who worked on the inquiry.
Like my hon. Friend, I have served on Select Committees and on big inquiries that attracted a lot of attention from the outside world, but I have never attended hearings that attracted such a large audience from the public as did the Gurkha welfare inquiry hearings. Hundreds of members of the Gurkha community and veterans came to listen to the evidence sessions to make their point, which clearly showed the strong feeling in the Gurkha community that serious outstanding issues have to be considered.
As Member of Parliament for Folkestone, I am proud to represent a significant Gurkha and Nepalese community. Shorncliffe barracks in Folkestone is the home barracks for the Royal Gurkha Rifles. We take an active interest in their work and they have conducted themselves with great distinction on numerous tours of duty in Afghanistan and service throughout the world for the British armed forces. We are extremely grateful for everything they have done. The Gurkhas clearly play a unique role in the British Army and we greatly benefit from that.
My hon. Friend set out clearly the issues that the inquiry covered, on Gurkha pensions and Gurkha welfare. I shall not repeat everything she said, but she hit on the most important aspect, which is that there needs to be fairness in the way we deal with those issues from the past. We are approaching the 200th anniversary of the start of this country’s cordial relationship with Nepal. This year, which marks the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war, is the right time to reflect on the service of the Gurkhas to the British armed forces, their service to this country and the amount we have benefited from that service. We should also consider what outstanding historical issues need to be resolved.
I supported the Gurkha campaign to give Gurkhas the right to live and settle in the United Kingdom. Service to this country through the armed forces should in itself be a means of qualifying for British citizenship; I see nothing wrong with that. Indeed, many people around the world who qualify for British citizenship do not have the track record of service to our country that Gurkha veterans have. If someone is prepared to fight and die in the cause of Great Britain and its allies, they should have the right to live here. That is what the Gurkhas now have.
My hon. Friend was right to focus on, in particular, the rights of the 7,000 or so ex-Gurkhas who qualify for no pension at all because they did not complete 15 years’ service. Many of them are veterans of conflicts. Many are veterans of the campaign in Malaya. When that ended, they returned to discover that they no longer had a role and they were made redundant from their post in the Army. As they did not qualify, they did not receive a pension. We should consider whether they should receive a pension, based on the number of years they served short of 15 years, as compensation for their service. We considered that matter in great depth during the inquiry.
A number of Gurkhas were dismissed from their post—many of them believe unfairly, particularly with respect to the incident in Hawaii, which the committee looked at. We ask the Ministry of Defence to look again at that incident to consider whether Gurkhas might have been dismissed unfairly, and therefore to consider whether they should qualify for some pension, based on the number of years they served. As my hon. Friend said, we should also consider the case of Gurkhas who qualify for no pension who were medically discharged from the armed forces through no fault of their own.
We cannot rewrite the terms and conditions of 30 or 40 years ago or more, and no one has alleged that the Ministry of Defence or the Government have in any way not honoured the letter of the commitments made to the Gurkhas at the time, but the question is whether the spirit of those commitments was fair and whether decisions were taken some years ago that would not be taken today—if Ministers were taking those decisions now, they would act differently and in a way that was fairer and that recognised the significant contribution that those Gurkhas made to our armed forces, even though they did not complete 15 years’ service. It is sad to see people who served in our armed forces with distinction but fell short of 15 years’ service living on a pittance and in poor conditions. We would not want that for any veterans of our armed forces, and we do not want it for the Gurkha community.
It is important to consider providing more support for the Gurkha Welfare Trust to support Gurkhas living independently in this country. The fines that the Government have levied on the banks as a result of the manipulation of the LIBOR rates could be used to support military charities. The Gurkha Welfare Trust would be an extremely deserving cause and using some of that money to support Gurkha veterans would be extremely appropriate. I ask the Government seriously to consider that as an opportunity to meet some of the funding commitments that the inquiry sets out. We live in extremely straitened times, and however much we would like to resolve some of these outstanding Gurkha issues, we cannot pretend that there are limitless funds with which to do so. It would perhaps therefore be appropriate to use some of the LIBOR fine money for that purpose.
Through the Department for International Development, we are able to support Nepal as a country, an ally and a friend. Any commitment we could give to making investments through the DFID budget to support welfare and health services in Nepal that provided equality of service and was attractive to ex-Gurkhas could encourage some of them to stay in the country or to return there. Many of them would like to do that, as they said during the course of the inquiry. That would be an appropriate use of resources that would further help to solve the problem.
Encouraging Gurkhas who want to return home to do so, and providing some of them with a decent standard of living through a fair pension that is linked to their years of service in the armed forces, is not only the right thing to do but could save the Treasury funds in the long run, because ex-Gurkhas might then no longer be as reliant on benefits as some of them inevitably have to be currently, as their own income is so low due to receiving so little support from their pension for the service that they gave.
When Her Majesty the Queen made her state visit to Ireland, she said in her speech at Dublin castle that looking back at the history of Anglo-Irish relations, there are some things one would do differently and some things that one would not have done at all. When we look back at our very long friendship with the Nepalese nation and the wonderful years of service that Gurkhas have given to our country, I think we will say that there are some incidences where we would have done certain things differently or perhaps not have done them at all. As my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock presents the report from the all-party group’s inquiry, and as we approach the Gurkhas’ 200th anniversary and commemorate the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war, this is the right time to consider some of those outstanding issues and settle some of those old grievances.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I am delighted to take part in this debate. I join my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on the fantastic job she has done in dealing with a very sensitive, difficult and complex issue. She has carried out her duties with impeccable commitment and approached the issue with great interest and determination. As my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe said, it is important to point out that this was not in any sense an official inquiry, let alone a House of Commons inquiry or a Select Committee inquiry. It was a very ad hoc inquiry designed to try to see whether interested Members of Parliament could find a way through some of these thorny issues. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and agree with pretty much every word she said. I am grateful to her.
I see on the Labour Front Bench the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who is a great lady. I should like to put it on record that although she is alone, we know why that is. It is because at this difficult hour for our kingdom, her colleagues are doing what they should be doing, which is going to campaign in Scotland to persuade our friends in Scotland—our kith and kin—to remain part of this great United Kingdom, whose 300-year history we share and through which we have together contributed so much to the rest of the world. Lest anybody should think that Labour Members are not interested in this issue, let me say that we know that she is the representative of many of her colleagues and their opinions.
As both my hon. Friends said, the Gurkhas are held in very high regard across the United Kingdom. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock recognised, this issue is of particular interest and great concern for people in the constituency of Aldershot, which includes Farnborough.
I join others in placing on the record our gratitude for the service given by the Gurkha soldiers and their magnificent contribution to the British Army over nearly 200 years. I am honoured to represent the Queen’s Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment, which is based in Aldershot. There has long been a strong Gurkha presence in the garrison of Aldershot. Between 1971 and 2000, Queen Elizabeth barracks in Church Crookham—formerly in the Aldershot constituency but now, thanks to the growth in the population of the area, in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot)—served as the principal UK base for Gurkhas who were stationed in the United Kingdom.
Together with my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), I had the pleasure of serving in the AFPS, which, for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the acronym, is the armed forces parliamentary scheme, not the armed forces pension scheme. We spent three days with 1st Battalion Royal Gurkha Rifles in Nanuki, Kenya, where they were conducting live firing training. It was altogether a fascinating experience. Not personally being an aficionado of curry, I found myself faced with something of a dilemma, which was that I either ate Gurkha curry or starved. In the circumstances, I decided to opt for the former rather than the latter, and I have to say that I found it very much better than I had expected. I did not take too close a look at how it was prepared, but it certainly tasted very good. When the soldiers had finished their live firing at the distant hill, they then had to go and put out the fire that they had made, which I understand they did with their bare feet. That is a message to the enemies of the United Kingdom—do not trifle with a Gurkha because they are tough.
I mentioned the long association that Aldershot has had with the Gurkhas. That has inevitably meant that a large proportion of the Nepalese who chose to reside in the United Kingdom following the recent settlement changes have overwhelmingly returned to Aldershot, the predominant place in Britain that they have memories of or an affiliation with. While that is understandable, it has placed enormous strain on local services and on the local area. The campaign launched by Joanna Lumley secured for Gurkhas who had served four years or more and had retired before 1 July 1997 the right to settle in the United Kingdom. That was granted by the previous Labour Government, entitling some 25,000 predominantly elderly ex-soldiers to enter the UK with their wives and dependants. It is important to understand that that involves upwards of 100,000 people. As a direct result, my constituency of Aldershot has seen a very significant change in its population. In 2011, Rushmoor borough council estimated that of the 90,000 citizens of Rushmoor, which is the local authority area covering Aldershot and Farnborough, up to 10,000 are Nepalese.
I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will recognise the huge challenge that that sudden and significant change has created in my constituency. The problem does not lie with the younger, recently retired ex-Gurkhas who speak good English and are very entrepreneurial; indeed, they are natural Conservatives. Many of them find work in the private security industry or start their own businesses. The problem arises with the older former Gurkhas—it is they who are presenting the challenges to my constituency. Generally unable to speak English, with virtually no job prospects, unfamiliar with our customs, and often with failing health, inevitably, because they are elderly, these new arrivals present a sad picture.
Major Tikendra Dewan, who is a good friend and chairman of the British Gurkha Welfare Society, which does a fantastic job in the constituency, has said:
“If you just take a ride around Aldershot, you can see so many Gurkhas just walking around like lost souls.”
Those words will certainly be echoed not only by my constituents but by any visitor to Aldershot. A visit to local surgeries—one GP practice has 3,000 Nepalese on its books—reveals waiting areas full of these elderly folk, as will a visit to the offices of Rushmoor borough council in Farnborough. This has been a tragic consequence of Miss Lumley’s campaign, which was based purely on emotion and not on the hard truths with which we politicians have to deal on a day-to-day basis. She and her campaign have done a major disservice to these elderly people and to the indigenous population, who have seen the character of Aldershot change massively. It is not fair on these elderly Nepalese and it is not fair on the locals, many of whom have also put their lives on the line for our country.
When I started to express concern about this matter, I received some disgusting e-mails from around the country asking how I could possibly say such things about the Gurkhas and saying how fantastic they are and how they put their lives on the line for their country. My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe made the same point, but thousands of my indigenous constituents have also put their lives on the line for the country. Aldershot is the home of the British Army and they are concerned about the way in which their town has changed. I cannot accept any extension to the right to settlement, which would only exacerbate an already serious problem.
Jackie Doyle-Price
This is an important issue and we need to make it clear to the community that people are being misled and encouraged to come to this country through false promises that they will be able to bring their families with them. Will my hon. Friend join me in condemning people such as immigration lawyers who continue to take money from these people to make appeals that will never be satisfied?
Sir Gerald Howarth
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for making a very important point. Research ought to be done into the activities of some of these middlemen, who undoubtedly are in it for the money. It is they who have benefited from visiting on these people a misery they do not deserve and from which they should have been spared. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.
In view of all the serious changes in my constituency, I had a meeting with the Prime Minister in 2011 to ask for further funding to enable the local authority and others to provide the badly needed additional support generated by the number of new Nepalese in the area. I managed to secure £1.5 million in total, which was provided by three Departments: the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office and the Department for International Development. Of that, about £1 million went to Rushmoor borough council.
As I have mentioned before, many of these elderly Nepalese struggle with ill health. What people might not realise is that, as well as the significant increase in the number of elderly people requiring health care at local GP surgeries, there is a huge need for Nepali-to-English translators to help explain to the doctors the needs of their patients. One doctor asked me, “How can I deal with a female patient with gynaecological problems who speaks no English and whose 12-year-old son has to translate for her?” That is wrong. Of course, this has resulted in longer patient time, so the indigenous population are having to wait longer to see their general practitioner. These are practical problems that have presented themselves, and I hope the House will recognise that that is but one of a number of hidden extra costs.
Let me turn specifically to the issue of Gurkha pensions. Until 1 July 1997, the Brigade of Gurkhas was regarded as an overseas force and its home base was in the far east; prior to Hong Kong, it had been in Singapore and Malaysia. In accordance with the tripartite agreement of 1947 between the Government of Nepal, the Government of India and the British Government, commonality was provided with respect to key service conditions such as pay and pensions, irrespective of whether they were enlisted in British or Indian armies—it is, of course, important to remember that the bulk of Nepalese recruited to the flag went to the Indian army, not the British Army.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock has said, most would serve for 15 years, following which they would be paid an immediate pension designed to provide a comfortable living in Nepal, which is where they were expected to—and virtually always did—return. Furthermore, as young men they were clearly able to take up new careers upon leaving the Army. By contrast, their British counterparts had to serve 22 years before being eligible for a pension, which became payable only at the age of 60, rather than upon immediate retirement. Thus, the Gurkhas returned to Nepal often in possession of a pension more than 25 years before their British counterparts. Over the course of a retirement, most Gurkha soldiers will receive equivalent or better value than their British counterparts as a result of being paid their pensions so much earlier. Moreover, the Ministry of Defence contributes more than £1 million a year to the Gurkha Welfare Trust in Nepal, which enables the trust to use its funds to care for the needy.
Following the return of Hong Kong to China, the Brigade of Gurkhas had to leave, naturally, and, apart from those stationed in Brunei, where the Sultan himself funds the Gurkha battalion, they moved to the United Kingdom, together with their families, meaning that their children were brought up in English schools. Thus, from 2004, those with four years or more service became entitled to apply for settlement in the United Kingdom. By 2007, those serving in the British Army were paid exactly the same as their British counter- parts.
In 2009, in response to the Lumley campaign, the then Home Secretary announced a change in policy on Gurkha settlement rights for those who had retired before 1 July 1997 and had completed four years’ service. They would have the right to settle in the UK with their spouses and dependent children. However, it is important to remember that there had been an agreement among the parties to the discussions that there was no direct read-across to policy on pensions. The then Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, said that
“the question of equalising Gurkha pensions should not and need not be conflated with the debate about settlement”.—[Official Report, 21 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 1650.]
The then Minister for veterans, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—in order to embarrass him I will place on the record that we are very good friends; that should do his career some damage, and as he is not here I can freely say that—said in a written answer that the
“estimate of the capitalised cost of providing retired Gurkhas with Armed Forces Pension Scheme (AFPS) equivalent pension benefits for all pensionable service before 1 July 1997”—[Official Report, 8 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 789W.]
was a whopping £1.5 billion.
It is important to underline that these pension arrangements have withstood no less than three major legal challenges in the past nine years. The three judicial reviews found the pension arrangements for Gurkhas to be fair and reasonable.
There has been much debate and controversy over the decision to build the changes around the date of 1 July 1997. However, given that was the date the UK became the home base for the Gurkhas, together with changes to immigration rules, which were updated to 1 July 1997, there was an increasing probability that Gurkhas would seek to retire to the UK on discharge. Up until that point, it was accepted that Gurkhas would be recruited in Nepal as Nepalese citizens, serve as Nepalese citizens and be discharged as Nepalese citizens in Nepal. However, given the change in their home base from Hong Kong to the UK, that could no longer be fairly assumed to be the case.
In his judgment of 2008, Mr Justice Ouseley said:
“A line was drawn; that was in itself reasonable, and the particular dates chosen for its drawing are reasonable too. The difference reflects not age in reality but the number of years of service based in the Far East or in the UK. If there was indirect discrimination on the grounds of age of ‘other status’, it was justified and proportionate.”
The Court of Appeal upheld the January 2010 ruling, which comprehensively rejected the argument that Gurkha pension arrangements were irrational, unfair or discriminatory. However, the legal process continues and the judgment remains the subject of an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.
I have every sympathy with the British Gurkha Welfare Society. It is a vibrant organisation and is well led by my friend, Major Tikendra Dewan, but as a former Defence Minister and having considered the matter carefully, I cannot support this campaign. The guys at BGWS are doing a great job. They are entrepreneurial and have their own energy company—I hope to sign up to their energy provision—whose new office will be officially inaugurated by the new Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd). They also have a radio station. They are a great organisation. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock, however, I do not think that there can be a retrospective change, and I salute her for having the courage and honesty to say so. The Ministry of Defence does not have £1.5 billion to pay up. No doubt the Minister will nod.
Sir Gerald Howarth
For the sake of the record, the Minister has nodded. Such treatment would not be fair, as the Forces Pension Society has a number of other claims for the correction of past anomalies that the Ministry of Defence has consistently resisted. The Department has been subjected to no fewer than three legal challenges, all of which have been rejected, so it has neither been capricious nor discriminatory.
Those who took advantage of the right to settle here knew very well the terms on which the offer was made. If they were misled, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock suggested—and I think that she is right—that was not the fault of the British Government. Furthermore, although they receive no uplift in their pensions, they receive a range of benefits designed to help them, as she said. They also have access to the best free health care facilities and support from a range of organisations.
Of course, as my hon. Friend said, there is an argument that as such welfare benefit costs are themselves substantial, why not therefore just increase the pensions, because the overall cost to the British Government would not change? That may or may not be true, but it would undoubtedly be a magnet for further migration, and without a policy of dispersing new arrivals, the burden would unquestionably fall on Aldershot. If any measure is to be taken, perhaps our bloated overseas aid budget could come to the rescue and be used to provide new health facilities in Nepal. My hon. Friend’s idea of an endowment for the Gurkha Welfare Trust is a good one. She has come up with some very practical suggestions, for which I salute her.
I want to end on a positive note. The changes inflicted on my constituency have been massive, but thanks in part to the Prime Minister’s intervention, which resulted in the additional £1.5 million of funding, and in large measure to the unremitting efforts of Conservative Rushmoor borough council—so ably led by its leader, Councillor Peter Moyle, and by its remarkable chief executive, Andrew Lloyd—early problems have been addressed by a raft of initiatives aimed at securing social cohesion.
Although there were undoubtedly problems initially, particularly among the younger, newly arrived Nepalese—not, of course, those who served in the Army—we have seen Nepali groups and white groups playing football, and a fantastic effort has been made across Rushmoor to integrate; and it is working, and has done well. This is my plea: those who have come here are, of course, welcome and we will do what we can for them, but I cannot in all conscience stand in the way of my constituents, some of whom have chosen to leave Aldershot because they are distressed at how their town has changed, or do other than to stand up for them. However, the good news is that the initiatives taken have resulted in a much greater degree of social cohesion, and I hope that we will continue to move in that direction of travel.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I, too, thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing time on the Floor of the House to debate this important subject. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) for the extraordinary work she and her office did—and, I understand, that of my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins)—in organising the inquiry. The logistics of organising it were quite immense. I guess that more than 200 people attended some of the hearings. It was a magnificent sight to see serving and veteran Gurkhas in the Committee Rooms on the floor above the Chamber.
Many of the subjects addressed by the inquiry report have already been mentioned in hon. Members’ contributions, but what brings together many of our interests is that we have Gurkhas in our constituencies. In Brecon and Radnor, based around the old garrison town of Brecon, we have the Mandalay company of Gurkhas, which is a demonstration unit for the training of senior non-commissioned officers in the British Army. Much of the training takes place in Sennybridge or up on the Epynt ranges. The Gurkha soldiers act both as forces to be commanded by the senior NCOs, or as attack forces so that the senior NCOs can organise defences. The Gurkhas play a very valuable role in ensuring that our NCOs in the British Army are of the highest calibre and quality.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) mentioned the consequences of resettlement, and we certainly have some of the same consequences in Brecon, although not on the same scale. Seeing elderly Gurkhas walking around the streets of Brecon, unable to understand where they are or to communicate with the rest of the community, is quite distressing. The Gurkhas are in general very welcome in Brecon, and their children are certainly very welcome in our schools. If I may put it this way, Brecon and Radnorshire does not have a very ethnically diverse community, so having Gurkha children in school is a real advantage to our schoolchildren.
The Gurkhas have been given the freedom of the borough of Brecon. Every year they march through Brecon in a wonderful ceremony, in which they bear arms—they are allowed to do so, having been given the freedom of the borough—and afterwards we are entertained by a display of dancing by Gurkha soldiers and children, which provides a real element of cohesion.
The more elderly Gurkhas who come to Brecon, without the ability to speak English, certainly have great difficulty in dealing with benefits and such issues, and that can be quite distressing. I have tried, although not with my hon. Friend’s success, to get extra funds for a support officer for the Gurkhas.
Sir Gerald Howarth
My hon. Friend is making a very important point. The £1.5 million that came to Rushmoor was not exclusively for Rushmoor. The council, particularly its chief executive, Andrew Lloyd, has done a huge amount of work to try to use some of the money to help other councils that are similarly affected. I cannot promise anything, but if my hon. Friend would like to write me a note, I will see what I can do.
Roger Williams
That is most helpful. I dare not mention the Barnett formula in this debate, but I was wondering whether such money might flow into Wales. I thank my hon. Friend for his very kind offer.
The major subject of the report was the equalisation of pensions. There is no point trying to skate around it: like other hon. Members, I find it very difficult to recommend a move towards equalising pensions, because it is very hard retrospectively to alter pension arrangements that were entered into voluntarily by people when they were recruited into the Gurkha regiments.
The report mentioned a number of difficult issues, which are obviously of real concern to Gurkha veterans, that I think the Government could do something about. If the veterans were funded by some of the LIBOR money that is meant to be used to support the work of the military covenant, that would be very well received by the Gurkhas. Let me run quickly through such issues.
Damian Collins
Does my hon. Friend agree that the inquiry highlighted a number of terms and conditions that seem extremely archaic? For example, it was not until the 1990s that Gurkhas were allowed to marry non-Gurkhas.
Roger Williams
My hon. Friend is quite right. That is a point that I was going to come on to. Not only were Gurkhas not allowed to marry non-Gurkha women; if they did, they were discharged from the Army and, as a result, had no pension at all. That affects some of the Gurkha veterans that my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock mentioned.
We have an arrangement with the Sultan of Brunei, who runs a very light-touch taxation system. Our Gurkha soldiers, being based in Brunei, were not liable to tax, but the Ministry of Defence took some money off their pay in management fees. That was equivalent to a tax. The MOD could look at that again, because it was iniquitous. Gurkhas serving in this country were given dummy national insurance numbers, but they did not get the benefits that a national insurance number and paying national insurance in this country should generate.
Another issue is health care in Nepal. Although the pension of the Gurkhas in Nepal was increased to address that issue, they have to pay for their health care. As I understand it, Gurkhas in the Indian army do not have to pay for their health care. The Ministry of Defence could look at that issue as well.
During the evidence to the inquiry, there was criticism of the Gurkha Welfare Trust and its work in Nepal. I have talked to a constituent who was quite senior in the trust, but he said that he was out of touch with what was going on at the moment and referred me to somebody else. However, I have not had time to talk to that gentleman yet. The criticism was made that the funds of the Gurkha Welfare Trust were not used entirely for the benefit of Gurkha soldiers in Nepal and their families. A review of the work of the Gurkha Welfare Trust would perhaps not be inappropriate.
Gurkhas were encouraged to invest in Equitable Life to increase their pensions. I wonder whether the Gurkhas who did invest in Equitable Life have received the benefits that the Government have given to other people who invested in it to compensate them for their losses, especially if they were advised by the MOD or some other organisation to save through that route.
Once again, we come back to the main grievance of the Gurkha people, which is the equalisation of pensions. There are some quite young Gurkha retirees in Brecon who are in good employment, as the hon. Member for Aldershot described. They tell me that they were senior NCOs or warrant officers in the Gurkha regiment, but because only part of their service was after 1997, the pensions that they receive are a lot lower than the pensions of people who were in British regiments. They are really aggrieved about that, as one can understand. They put their lives on the line for this country, yet they are not getting the same rewards as many of their fellow soldiers.
It is difficult for the inquiry or the MOD to make a move at the moment because there is an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. As far as I am concerned, the matter is in limbo and it would be difficult for anybody to come to a conclusion. There is much in the report and the work that we have done that will be welcomed by the Gurkhas, but their great concern is that there will be no move to equalise pensions.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and the other Members who made powerful speeches.
I am delighted to speak in this debate. I have taken a keen interest in the campaigns that have been undertaken by the Gurkhas for a number of years. I am pleased to hear that the inquiry is making good progress under the excellent stewardship of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). I look forward to reading the full report and recommendations very soon. I congratulate my hon. Friend and the Backbench Business Committee on holding this debate, which comes one year shy of the 200th anniversary of the Gurkhas first serving in the British Army.
Any mention of the Gurkhas would not be complete without paying tribute to their service and their bravery. From Sierra Leone to Kosovo, the Gurkhas have been a fixture of the British armed forces. Their skill and bravery have been widely praised again this afternoon. The Gurkhas have served in every major conflict in which Britain has been involved since the Falklands. If any group of people are deserving of this House’s time and attention, it is these brave soldiers and veterans.
Because of their history and record, the Gurkhas command widespread public support. There is a great strength of feeling that they should receive fair treatment from the Ministry of Defence and the British Government. The treatment of the Gurkhas should not have been reliant on a campaign led by Joanna Lumley, although her dedication and tireless zeal were admirable. This issue holds the attention of the wider public. That is certainly the case in my constituency, where there is a significant Nepalese community. It is estimated that between 1,500 and 2,000 Gurkhas live in the Reading area. It is not just the Nepalese community that feels strongly about the treatment of the Gurkhas: at the height of the campaign for residency in 2009, people from all backgrounds asked me to intervene and support the campaign. Perhaps with hindsight one can say that those people did not all fully understand the consequences of the changes that were made.
The Gurkhas in my local community are supported by a number of fantastically hard-working local charities, such as the Reading Ex-British Gurkha Association and the Gurkha veteran centre. Those organisations provide much needed practical support and a sense of community and friendship for Gurkhas.
I fear that I am personally responsible for some of the work load of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock on this issue. Indeed, this morning I received a handwritten note from her:
“Do hope you can join the debate on Thursday—you got me into this!”
I am afraid I plead guilty, although it was actually my constituent Gyanraj Rai, who was on hunger strike last year in Downing street. He is a friend and someone I campaigned alongside for years, so it was very distressing to see him literally fading away, and I wanted to stop him taking his life. With the support of my hon. Friend, I managed to broker a deal that led to the Gurkha welfare all-party group inquiry, which I hope will lead to a more congenial relationship between Gurkhas and the MOD in future.
I do not regret getting my hon. Friend into this. She has done an outstanding job so far and should have all our thanks and congratulations. However, I stand by the view I gave at the time that the tactic of hunger striking was misguided, and in a democracy that cannot be the way to conduct or resolve an honest debate. The Government are put in the invidious position that if they give in there will be a procession of other hunger strikers outside Downing street who think they will be successful. Even more importantly, it put huge strain on the local community, and even more so on the family of Gyanraj Rai. I remember when it was over that Mr Rai’s wife sought me out in the crowd, embraced me, broke down in tears and thanked me for helping to end the hunger strike. I think we both knew that he would have gone through to the bitter end. With the establishment of the inquiry, I am hopeful that a real discussion can be triggered about the Gurkhas’ wider grievances and concerns, not just pensions but health care, education and other issues that have affected the community.
Jackie Doyle-Price
Having been reminded of the events around the hunger strike, I wish to put it on the record—I would welcome my hon. Friend’s feedback on this—just how positive it has been to see all the Gurkha groups positively engage with the institutions of our democracy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) said, we had upwards of 200 Gurkhas at each of the meetings. Let us go ahead in the spirit of that mature dialogue.
Mr Wilson
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. From this point onwards it is important to keep that type of engagement going, and I hope to say a little more about that.
We are talking not just about pensions but about wider issues of health care, education and so on. I worry that in the past Governments did not truly listen to the Gurkha community, but as a consequence of my hon. Friend’s inquiry that cannot continue to be the case. I wish to draw the House’s attention to two parts of the evidence given to the inquiry that I feel are particularly noteworthy, and I hope Ministers will take time to respond to them comprehensively.
The first is the evidence given by my friend and constituent Gyanraj Rai. His description of poverty in Nepal was moving and should throw into sharp focus the importance of the subject under discussion. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) said, there is perhaps a bigger role for the Department for International Development in Nepal, with the UK giving more assistance to health services and education to veterans. Education and trade are ways we can build a better future for Nepal, but it will take time and a lot of effort. I hope we can reflect some of that in the report.
Mr Gray
My hon. Friend mentioned Nepal, and one point we have not touched on is the downside in Nepal of the Gurkhas being resettled in the United Kingdom, which is significant. I visited a number of DFID bases in Nepal and they do fantastic work, particularly in educating women in Nepal. We should pay tribute to DFID for the huge contribution that Britain makes to some of those efforts in that country.
Mr Wilson
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Some hon. Friends and colleagues from across the House are visiting Nepal, and it would be useful to get their feedback on what is happening on the ground. A lot of people have left Nepal to come to the UK, and one worries that there is a hollowing out of the community and society there because of that.
Gyanraj gave an account of his experience of what he described as a punitive approach to discipline, leading to some Gurkhas losing their pensions. If that has been the case, and evidence is provided for it, I hope that the Ministry of Defence will look into the matter carefully and respond accordingly.
I was also interested to read the Government’s response to the inquiry’s questions, which I felt for the first time put many of the Gurkhas’ questions properly on the record in one place. I thank the Ministers responsible for their work. I feel that many of their arguments are persuasive, especially with regard to the general principle of not having retrospective changes. However, more must be done to ensure that the community is engaged with the MOD’s reasoning, as that would encourage an improved relationship with parts of the Gurkha community.
I fear that the complexity of the pension issue is the greatest stumbling block we face, because whatever accommodation is reached is likely to cause further anomalies and exclude someone or some group. The situation with pre and post-1997 pensions is far from ideal, but we must ensure that any recommendations and changes do not make the situation worse. I await the final report with interest and hope that Ministers respond comprehensively in due course. I also hope the opinions of hon. Members that we have heard today are taken into account.
It is likely that we will be unable to deliver on every proposal or grievance that the inquiry hears, as doing so may incur an unsustainable financial cost. My hope is that the inquiry deals fairly with the long-standing Gurkha grievances. I hope it finds a way for more Gurkhas to remain in Nepal and to have a successful and fulfilled life there without feeling the financial pull of coming to the UK. I further hope that the bad feeling that has developed between the MOD and Gurkha representatives over many years can be cleared up, so that reasonable dialogue can take place in future.
We are entering a crucial time for the Gurkhas and their grievances. It is important that we openly engage in sensible and honest dialogue on solutions. We owe the Gurkhas a serious, independent and honest report. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock will deliver just that.
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this incredibly important debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), who has been a champion of Gurkha welfare. The campaign she has run, both individually and as part of the all-party group, has been a master-class in getting an issue to the forefront of Ministers’ minds. She made a brilliant speech, and I will not repeat the points that she or other hon. Members have made in this interesting debate.
I pay tribute to the Gurkha veterans who live in my constituency. Mr Bhutia, Mr Rai, Mr Garong and Mr Thapa have been to see me several times to explain their concerns in detail. I pay tribute to Tashi Bhutia, whom I am proud to call a friend. He was the first Conservative Gurkha councillor, which makes the point mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth). He is standing again for the council in next year’s elections. He has made a valuable contribution to the community, not only as an elected politician, but as a local family man who represents the Gurkha community, and as a much-valued employee of BAE Rochester. He has integrated very well into the community—he and his family have lived in this country for more than 20 years—and acts as a major conduit between other members of the Gurkha community and elected politicians such as me.
The Gurkha community has a clear association with Kent and Medway. As my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) said—Hythe is my home town—many Gurkhas have settled in the area around the coastal barracks of Shorncliffe. It was right that the military parade before the unveiling of the Step Short memorial arch by His Royal Highness Prince Harry in Folkestone on 4 August—my hon. Friend was chairman of the committee—was led by the band of the Brigade of Gurkhas. That was incredibly appreciated by the local community throughout the county. It was well respected as a consequence.
Other hon. Members have made it clear that the Gurkhas have served this nation with great pride and loyalty. Many sacrificed their lives for our nation’s freedom and democracy. Nobody underestimates that. We all have sympathy with the fact that all they ask is to be valued equally to their British and Commonwealth counterparts. I hear hon. Members’ concerns about whether terms and conditions can be rewritten, but I think there is a gap that needs to be addressed, and I will come to that shortly.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe, I supported the Joanna Lumley campaign. I appreciate the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot—I am not in the same position, as a constituency MP, but people should respect his standing up for his wider constituency in outlining possible unintended consequences of the resettlement campaign. Nevertheless, I think it was the right campaign and the right outcome.
Sir Gerald Howarth
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being so understanding, because it is important that people realise that Aldershot is particularly affected. I must put it on the record, however, that many of my constituents feel extremely aggrieved that Joanna Lumley, having run that very emotional campaign, has been nowhere near Aldershot ever since, as far as I am aware.
Tracey Crouch
It is important that my hon. Friend does that, but the issue of resettlement was an emotional one; everybody in the nation got caught up in the campaign, one way or another. As my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) made clear, it was a good campaign at the time. It might have had unintended consequences, but goodness—if we thought only about the possible unintended consequences of what we do in the House and of campaigns we run, we would do nothing. It is fair to say, however, that the vast numbers forecast to flood into the UK did not appear, and many who came now live in poverty—an unfortunate and unforeseen consequence of the resettlement campaign.
My constituents tell me they want to live a life of dignity, not live on charity handouts from the Ministry of Defence and others, but unfortunately that is happening, and in many respects that is the nub of the issue. I congratulate the British Gurkha Welfare Society on its ongoing campaign. It is important to recognise that much progress has been made on the welfare of Gurkhas in the UK. We have mentioned the settlement rights, but much progress has also been made on visas and access to rehabilitation, as I have seen in my constituency with a horrifically injured Gurkha being cared for by the Royal British Legion Industries in Aylesford—a site that has been a rehabilitation centre since the beginning of the first world war. Progress has also been made regarding the financial support for those settling in the UK.
Furthermore, the Department for International Development has spent, and continues to spend, a lot of money supporting programmes to improve access to quality health services in Nepal. As was mentioned, the Nepal health sector programme provides £72 million on increasing access to those services, which, taken alongside the Government’s £1.5 million fund to help Gurkhas settle in the UK, represents an incredibly important financial investment.
I want to address the thorny issue of pensions. The British Gurkha Welfare Society states on its website that,
“Gurkhas receive a pension of only £2,150 per year with the many that relocate to the UK being reliant on pension tax credits and State benefits to survive. A pension of £5,000 per year would enable these veterans to live out their lives in comfort and without reliance on charity”.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock made that point incredibly well. If we address some of the gap between what they currently receive and what they should receive—not, I appreciate, as part of their terms and conditions, but perhaps in the spirit that my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe mentioned —ironically we could end up saving the state money, because it would reduce their reliance on state benefits.
That said, I recognise that this issue is before the European Court, so I would not encourage the Minister to make any further statement or commitment today, but we need to think about how and why people joined the British Army and how they have been treated since their service. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and others about the 7,000 Gurkhas who get nothing at all is one that we need to look at—and thoroughly. When the report from the inquiry is published, I am sure that that will be a key aspect of it.
Sir Gerald Howarth
It is kind of my hon. Friend to give way yet again. Yes, these are hard cases, but I was a shadow Minister for veterans and I was made acutely aware of the range of existing anomalies for British ex-service personnel, not least the post-retirement marriage issue. It is all very well to say that we must give way here, but there will be a real outcry from many other former service personnel who have also served our country and feel that they have a grievance. If this one is addressed before their grievances, my hon. Friend will get a few letters.
Tracey Crouch
I am glad to have given way to my hon. Friend, who raises an incredibly valid point. The Minister is aware that she has letters on her desk, awaiting signature, in reply to me on this very matter. I am not suggesting that one grievance should take priority over another; I am simply saying that this one must be addressed. There certainly is an anomaly; there is a gap, and it is only right and fair to have a look at it. The proposal by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock on LIBOR is an excellent idea. If that can somehow help to reduce some of the burden and the gap, I think it would be the right way forward.
We should be—I think most of us generally are—very proud of how the nation views and respects our armed forces: both those serving now and those who have served. I do not believe that anyone thinks there should be any discrimination within that. The report from the inquiry will be essential. As many have pointed out, with the 200th anniversary coming up next year, now is the right time to address these outstanding issues. I look forward to reading the report. Once again, I congratulate all those involved. My interest in the issue is not just one of emotion. I want to represent my constituents who have fought and served this country abroad while serving within the Brigade of Gurkhas. I am proud to call many of them my friends, and I hope that we will be able to address this matter within acceptable time scales.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
I would like to record my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee for its excellent work in facilitating debates such as this one today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on securing the debate on Gurkha pensions and terms of employment. The topic has been discussed at length here before but, as I would have expected, she gave an extremely thoughtful and well balanced speech. We have heard knowledgeable and passionate speeches from other Members, highlighting very specific concerns, including the issue of dismissals and Hawaii. I shall not get involved in those; I am sure the Minister will consider all those detailed and specific points.
I thank the hon. Member for Thurrock for the hard work that she and her colleagues do in the all-party group. Many people and organisations have given up their time—we have heard about the huge number of attendees—in connection with it. Having walked down the Committee corridor on a number of occasions when events were taking place, I know that the hon. Lady has had an interesting and, I suspect, at times quite difficult-to-manage task. She deserves the plaudits she was given, particularly from the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth); they were entirely justified.
Members will understand why so many colleagues have been absent from today’s debate, but the defence of the United Kingdom and the Union is a paramount concern. Scotland plays an important role in the overall defence of our realm. A yes vote, which would leave the Scots unable to respond to incidents, without intelligence cover and losing jobs is not, I think, something that any Member in the Chamber would want to see, so I am grateful to the hon. Member for Aldershot for his comments. As he said, many Members whose constituencies contain significant Gurkha and Nepalese communities have gone to fight for the Union today.
The hon. Member for Thurrock set out some of the initial findings, and highlighted some of the key issues that had been raised with the all-party group. I am pleased that she sought to obtain this debate in order to listen to the views of Members, and—here I return to the fact that so many Members have not been able to participate in it because of their commitments elsewhere—I hope that she will pursue the issue. I hope that she will give all Members a copy of the report of the debate, and seek their views further to ensure that she has all bases covered. I am sure that others will want to read what has been said here today.
Members in all parts of the House recognise the enormous contribution made by the Gurkha soldiers to Britain. The Gurkhas are held in much public affection and esteem by the British public, and rightly so. They have represented and protected our nation gallantly for well over 100 years—indeed, as we heard from the hon. Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), for approaching 200 years. They fought alongside British troops before and during the first and second world wars, and continue that tradition in present-day operations. I was interested to hear what was said by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) about the Mandalay company’s involvement in training in his constituency. That, I think, illustrates just how important the Gurkhas are currently to the British armed services.
The last Government, appreciating the contribution and service of the Gurkhas, made a commitment to honour the Gurkha regiments, first by eliminating differences between their terms and conditions of service and those of their British counterparts, and later by delivering the first ever rights of settlement for Gurkhas, their spouses and their dependent children. We are proud of the work that we did in government in enhancing the lives of Gurkha soldiers and their families. I understand, however, that although there have been significant developments in recent years in relation to the pay and conditions of Gurkha soldiers and the extension of their right to settle in the UK, some outstanding grievances remain. We heard about a number of them during the debate, and of course we have also heard from Gurkhas and organisations that represent them, such as the Gurkha Welfare Trust.
Chief among those grievances is the issue relating to Gurkha pension arrangements for those who served prior to 1997. The last Government introduced a policy under which all who served after 1997 were able to transfer into the armed forces pension scheme and enjoy the same terms and conditions as their British equivalents. Of course, before 1997, Gurkha regiments were focused in the far east. Recruits came from Nepal, pay and other conditions reflected the terms available in the Indian army and it was assumed that Gurkhas would retire not in the UK, but in their home country of Nepal.
Following the transfer of the Brigade of Gurkhas to the United Kingdom in 1997, it seemed only right for the Gurkhas’ terms and conditions to be brought in line with those of British soldiers. As increasing numbers of Gurkhas were based here and began to put down roots in the UK, it became necessary to give them the right to settle with their families, a right that the last Government delivered. As for those who had served before 1997, and who were not part of the cohort of soldiers who moved with the base to the UK, it was still the expectation that they would settle in Nepal. They remained under the Gurkha pension scheme, which allows them to collect a pension after 15 years of service—far less than for a British soldier—and which provides them with an amount that can secure a good standard of living in Nepal.
I heard what the hon. Member for Thurrock said about the way in which that income is now spent, and what other Members said about the pressures on those living in Nepal. I shall be interested to read the evidence from the all-party review, particularly that relating to medical services. I am sure that the Minister will also be interested to read it when it is made public.
During a debate on this topic in 2009, my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) pointed out that the early payment of pensions for Gurkhas, after 15 years of service, actually means that most Gurkhas receive a significant pension before equivalent soldiers receive anything at all. A Gurkha soldier enrolled in the Gurkha pension scheme who enlisted at the age of 18 would have been able to retire at 33 and begin to collect his pension then. That has raised a number of issues; as I have said, I shall be interested to see the report. Members have posed further questions to the Minister today, including questions about the use of LIBOR funding and various other pots of money, and I am sure that she will give that some thought. I listened with interest, and I shall listen with great interest to the Minister’s response, although I suspect that she, like Opposition Members, will want to see the detail and consider it, because the devil is always in the detail when looking at such complex issues.
In contrast, those under the armed forces pension scheme 1975 cannot collect a pension until they are 60. By the time they reach 60 it is correct to say that the Gurkhas will receive lower monthly payments than their British counterparts, but they will have already benefited from 27 years of annual payments by that time, whereas the British soldier will have received none.
We should also remember, of course, that the Gurkha pension scheme cannot be separated from other pension schemes, including the current and previous schemes for our armed forces. It has been the policy of Governments across time that the terms and conditions of pension arrangements cannot be changed retrospectively after people leave public service. I know that a number of organisations are still seeking to make changes to the pension arrangements for those who served prior to 1997, and as Members have pointed out, there has been a series of legal challenges, to the High Court and Court of Appeal. The latter found, in relation to the pre-1997 pension arrangement, that the previous Government had acted fairly, especially given that the soldiers’ entire service was completed before the base was moved from Hong Kong, and at a time when the assumption and, importantly, the reality was retirement to a life in Nepal. We maintain that the policy introduced by the last Labour Government was reasonable, rational and lawful.
I should like to touch briefly on the emotional and complex issue of the changes sought to rules in relation to adult children. With regard to changes in the rules to allow adult children to settle in the UK, we must be clear that the UK Government’s policy has to be consistent and fair. What has been sought would not be in line with policy offered to other former servicemen from abroad and with wider UK immigration policy. This is a highly emotive area, but the Home Office has very clear rules about this, and those rules need to be acknowledged.
Jackie Doyle-Price
The hon. Lady is absolutely right that we must ensure that our application of our immigration laws is consistent. A number of Gurkhas are applying to get their families over on the basis of a right to family life, but ultimately anyone can apply under other visas—student visas or work visas—and does the hon. Lady agree that their adult families might use those routes, rather than the right to family life or any right that might arise from their veterans’ service?
Alison Seabeck
The hon. Lady makes an interesting point, although it would probably be better answered by a Home Office expert than me. This is complex, however. I have in my constituency a large number of Fijians who are based in Plymouth and in the Navy, and have a long-standing commitment. They could possibly equally argue that things need to be altered because of their degree and level of service. The rules must be clear, consistent and fair. If the hon. Lady’s report can give an indication that that would be the case, I am sure the Home Secretary would be interested to read it—and I, too, would be interested to read it—but at the moment, as the rules stand, there can be no specific exceptions.
This is not a day for tub-thumping party politics, but I make one small observation: the Gurkhas are being disproportionately affected by the Government’s handling of their proposed reform to the armed forces and the rationale behind the removal of 350 Gurkhas from service still needs some explanation—but I will go no further on that point in terms of the cuts to the regiments and the timing.
The welfare and well-being of our serving personnel and our veterans is a priority for this party, as I am sure it is for the Government parties. That is one reason why we pushed so hard to enshrine the principles of the armed forces covenant in law. It is also why we undertook to introduce equal pay and pension rights for Gurkhas and to provide them with the option to settle in the United Kingdom if they wished to.
We have heard from many hon. Members. The hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) highlighted his constituency links to the Nepalese community in a very positive way. The hon. Member for Aldershot spoke of the pressures of resettlement on local councils and health services. The hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) spoke of her constituent’s commitment to his community in being elected as a local councillor. None of us would want to suggest that the Gurkhas and other members of the Nepalese community are anything other than a positive benefit to the communities in which they settle, as long as the right support is in place for them. The Gurkhas play a vital role in our armed forces, and I hope that we can look forward to many more years of their dedicated, brave, committed and highly skilled service.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for ensuring that the debate has come into this place. I also want to pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). It is important that I set the record straight regarding certain comments by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), of whom I make no criticism. There might have been a suggestion, given the note from my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock that he described, that she had been reluctant to take on this task, but that is not the case. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Gurkha welfare, she took on the task, with absolutely no support other than from fellow members of the group, knowing that it would be hugely complex and emotive. As has been mentioned, she has had support from my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and other members of his team.
We have heard some great speeches this afternoon. During the debate—I hope Members will forgive me—I was talking to the Solicitor-General, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), and we were trying to recall whether an all-party group had ever taken on such a task without the support of any charity or industry. This might be a bit of a first. I do not know; it does not matter. The point is that they have done it, and we look forward to the report.
I do not hesitate to tell the House that I agree with almost everything that my hon. Friend—as she now is, on this point—the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) said. She commented on the absence of Labour Members from the Chamber today; indeed, the same applies to my side of the Chamber to some extent. It is important for people to understand that that is not a reflection of any lack of interest in this important matter. Perhaps the public at large do not appreciate that Members of Parliament do not have to be in the Chamber to take a firm interest in a debate. They can watch it in their rooms, but in any event they will read it in Hansard, either electronically or on paper. I know that that will happen.
The biggest tribute that I want to pay today is to every member of the Gurkha community and, in particular, to all those who have served. They rightly deserve their reputation as being among the bravest and most fearless of soldiers. It was one of my great pleasures, honours and treats to go along to their regimental dinner earlier in the summer. I watched as they drilled and marched as the band played, and it was fabulous. I have never experienced anything like it. Those are perhaps the exterior things, the extra bits, but at the heart of the matter is their reputation for courage. It is often said that they are the most fearless of soldiers. Next year, the Gurkhas will celebrate 200 years of service to the Crown, and we look forward to the celebrations and commemorations. The United Kingdom—let us hope that it remains the United Kingdom—is proud of the Gurkhas, and we have always sought to meet the aspirations of successive generations of Gurkha soldiers and their families. I should like to put that into the context of the subject of the debate.
In 2009, our appreciation of the Gurkhas culminated in Parliament’s decision to permit Gurkhas discharged before 1 July 1997 to settle here in the United Kingdom. Many retired Gurkhas have since done so, and many have received vital welfare support and medical treatment as a result. However, as we have heard today, those settling here also became aware of differences between Gurkha terms and conditions and those of the rest of our armed forces. In particular, as many speakers have mentioned, they have highlighted the difference between a Gurkha pension pre-1997 and that of their British counterparts. Suffice it to say, these are complex issues, rooted in a set of unique historical and political circumstances, but context is all and I am grateful for the opportunity to set out the Government’s position. Of course we welcome the report and I assure hon. Members that it will be read and analysed, and all points will be considered. Most importantly, my door will be open to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and to other hon. Members who have served so well on her all-party group.
The Government’s view is that the Gurkha pension, established in 1947 by the tripartite agreement between the UK, Nepal and India, was fair for the time and did not disadvantage Gurkhas. There are three reasons why I say that. First, although the Gurkha pension was smaller, it was paid for a much longer period. Gurkhas received an immediate pension after 15 years’ service, typically in their early 30s. By contrast, British personnel who served less than 22 years prior to 1975 receive no pension. A calculation made in 2009 showed that a Gurkha rifleman who retired in 1994 will have received some £61,000 at 2009 prices by the age of 60—his British comparator will have received nothing at all.
Secondly, the Gurkha pension placed Gurkhas among Nepal’s highest earners as a result. Significantly, a retired Lieutenant—a Queen’s Gurkha officer—with 24 years of service receives a pension more generous than the salary of Nepal’s Prime Minister. Thirdly, over the years Gurkhas’ pensions evolved as they benefited from the flexibility built into their terms and conditions. That meant that we were able to enhance their pensions to suit changing circumstances. Initially, as we have heard, Gurkhas mainly served in the far east, but when they undertook temporary posting to the UK or other overseas locations they were entitled to a cost of living addition. From 1997, when Gurkhas were based in the UK, they received a universal addition regardless of where they then served. Since 2007 Gurkhas joining our armed forces have been placed on an equal footing with the rest of the Army.
The argument has been made by others, and it is the right argument, that all those who receive a pension are bound by the rules of the game. Those who did not serve the requisite period of time or who came to this country on a pre-1997 pension cannot expect their pension arrangements to change. I should add that it would be the same in the case of a British soldier. The legal principle that individuals receive benefits in accordance with the scheme rules is well founded. As we heard, retrospective changes are not good and cannot be right—as is the principle, upheld by successive Governments, that improvements to pensions schemes are not made retrospectively. There are many quotes on that from previous Ministers of State for the Armed Forces and Ministers in my position. All of them, whatever the colour of the Government, support that important principle.
However, decisions can be reviewed in circumstances where incorrect information was provided to individuals. We have heard about the ramifications of mixed marriage, which make for uncomfortable listening in our, happily, more enlightened age. I want to know more about any Gurkha who finds himself in that situation. I want to know the detail, to have those cases placed before me and to get those things sorted out. I find the fact that Gurkhas were given dummy national insurance numbers utterly bizarre, and my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General and I were debating it. It is almost as if money were obtained by some deception, in that people were paying in money but they have had no benefit from it. Again, I make no promises, but that cannot be right and we need to sort that out. My door is open and I want to have proper discussions about how we can do that.
That brings me back to the first speech in this excellent debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock spoke about fairness. This is about fairness, but it is also about having a mature dialogue. I listened with great care to the points that she so ably advanced, and to the points that were taken up by others. I will, if I may, respond to some of them now.
My hon. Friends the Members for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) and for Thurrock talked about the role of some sort of middleman. I always shy away from making adverse comments about lawyers, as I was a lawyer in a previous life. In all seriousness, I am concerned that there might be individuals who seek to exploit Gurkhas, or ex-Gurkhas, in Nepal. I will ask my officials both in the United Kingdom and in the embassy in Nepal to explore that matter so that we do all we can to ensure that that those who wish to come to the United Kingdom are not only fully and properly informed but not in any way exploited.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reading East made a point about the Department for International Development, which was taken up by others. Let me just say this: DFID has been investing in the health sector in Nepal for nearly 17 years; it has contributed more than £19.7 million to the rural water and sanitation programme of the Gurkha welfare scheme since 1989. In addition, its operational plan commits up to £331 million of UK official development assistance during the period of 2011 to 2015. The DFID Nepal programme now totals around £90 million to £100 million per annum. I hope that my hon. Friend finds that helpful and useful.
My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe gave a well crafted speech, which made some very good points. The great work of the Gurkha Welfare Trust was mentioned. It was suggested that a boost in LIBOR funds could be a way to solve some of these feelings of injustice and unfairness and, most importantly, these feelings that a need is not being met.
I am grateful to all Members for their comments, including my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). In relation to his point about funding, which my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot says has benefited his constituency, I am helpfully advised by my officials and by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General that that £1.5 million funding is available for Gurkhas in his constituency. I would be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire to talk about how we can ensure that his constituents benefit.
Joanna Lumley’s campaign has been mentioned. I am aware of the comments of my hon. Friends the Members for Aldershot and for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). Let me say this, if I may: Joanna Lumley’s campaign had the highest and most honourable of motives. It was welcomed and it was the right thing to do. None the less, I accept the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot, who said that there have been some unintended consequences.
Sir Gerald Howarth
It is important that the House understands that those consequences were not entirely unforeseen. At the time, I suggested that there were potential consequences by virtue of the fact that Aldershot has an historic association with the Gurkha community. I would not like it to be thought that somehow this has all suddenly come upon us without any warning.
Anna Soubry
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the comment, but I would counter it by saying that we are where we are. We have to deal with the reality of where we are and see whether we can make things considerably better for those who find themselves away from home, struggling to speak English and in the circumstances described, while ensuring that their welfare is an absolute priority. Those things must be done as we take these matters into consideration.
In conclusion, we believe that the terms and conditions of the Gurkhas were fair but, having said that, we also understand the concerns of those who, having fought for this country, settled here and subsequently found themselves in difficulty. That is why we are so grateful to all those who have participated in the inquiry and we look forward to the report’s conclusions. Its focus has been on resolving historical anomalies and that must be right.
Today’s Gurkhas, in terms of engagement, pay, allowances and pension matters, are regarded no differently from personnel in any other part of the Army. Again, I thank all who have taken part in the debate and in the inquiry and we look forward to the report.
Jackie Doyle-Price
I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate. There is an immense amount of unanimity on the desire to do right by the Gurkhas but to do so within the rule of law. That is why it is so important that we do not make more anomalies as we address these problems.
We need to address the outcomes of poverty that we have talked about and we will do that by showing imagination and being practical. I welcome the Minister’s attitude. The relationship between Gurkha veterans and the Ministry of Defence in previous years has not been characterised by mature dialogue and I think there is fault on both sides for that. I will put myself in the position of being the glue that brings the Gurkhas to the negotiating table if the Minister promises to keep her door open, and she has given us that indication.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered Gurkha pensions and terms of employment.