Gerald Howarth
Main Page: Gerald Howarth (Conservative - Aldershot)Department Debates - View all Gerald Howarth's debates with the Ministry of Defence
(10 years, 1 month ago)
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Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I, too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the magnificent work she has done in seeking to find a just solution to this problem. She mentions that the Gurkha pension scheme was available on the completion of 15 years of service. Am I right in thinking that at the same time the British Army pension scheme was available at 20 years of service, thereby giving the Gurkha soldier a significant time advantage over the rest of the British Army?
Jackie Doyle-Price
My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) is quite right, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) says from a sedentary position, it was in fact 22 years. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire goes to the heart of this: we are comparing apples and oranges when we try to compare Gurkha pensions with British service pensions. They are separate and different, so the key is not equality but fairness. That is the spirit in which our inquiry has been undertaken.
Clearly, there can be no retrospective change to terms and conditions of employment, but I ask that the Government look carefully at the adequacy of the Gurkha pension, particularly in relation to the Indian Gurkha pension and their additional benefits and the cost of living in Nepal. We want a commitment that that will continue to be held in review.
The all-party group was more concerned, however, about those Gurkha veterans who receive no pension. There are a good number of them. Some are veterans of the second world war who left long before the introduction of the Gurkha pension, and in addition some 7,000 veterans receive nothing as they did not complete 15 years of service. We are not satisfied that all those veterans are being treated fairly and we believe that they should be afforded the dignity and honour that service in the British Army should bring.
At the moment, these people are dependent on Gurkha welfare pensions of some £40 a month, administered by the Gurkha Welfare Trust. The all-party group believes that those who were made redundant or unfairly dismissed should have a formal entitlement to a pension, as should those who were medically retired. I note that the Government are in receipt of LIBOR money that is being used to fund services for our veterans, so we would ask that the Government consider making a generous endowment to the Gurkha Welfare Trust to enable it to support those veterans more effectively. We also want them to consider whether it is appropriate that those who were made redundant and were unable to serve 15 years through no choice of their own should be given some formal entitlement to a pension.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
I am delighted to take part in this debate. I join my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on the fantastic job she has done in dealing with a very sensitive, difficult and complex issue. She has carried out her duties with impeccable commitment and approached the issue with great interest and determination. As my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe said, it is important to point out that this was not in any sense an official inquiry, let alone a House of Commons inquiry or a Select Committee inquiry. It was a very ad hoc inquiry designed to try to see whether interested Members of Parliament could find a way through some of these thorny issues. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and agree with pretty much every word she said. I am grateful to her.
I see on the Labour Front Bench the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who is a great lady. I should like to put it on record that although she is alone, we know why that is. It is because at this difficult hour for our kingdom, her colleagues are doing what they should be doing, which is going to campaign in Scotland to persuade our friends in Scotland—our kith and kin—to remain part of this great United Kingdom, whose 300-year history we share and through which we have together contributed so much to the rest of the world. Lest anybody should think that Labour Members are not interested in this issue, let me say that we know that she is the representative of many of her colleagues and their opinions.
As both my hon. Friends said, the Gurkhas are held in very high regard across the United Kingdom. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock recognised, this issue is of particular interest and great concern for people in the constituency of Aldershot, which includes Farnborough.
I join others in placing on the record our gratitude for the service given by the Gurkha soldiers and their magnificent contribution to the British Army over nearly 200 years. I am honoured to represent the Queen’s Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment, which is based in Aldershot. There has long been a strong Gurkha presence in the garrison of Aldershot. Between 1971 and 2000, Queen Elizabeth barracks in Church Crookham—formerly in the Aldershot constituency but now, thanks to the growth in the population of the area, in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot)—served as the principal UK base for Gurkhas who were stationed in the United Kingdom.
Together with my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), I had the pleasure of serving in the AFPS, which, for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the acronym, is the armed forces parliamentary scheme, not the armed forces pension scheme. We spent three days with 1st Battalion Royal Gurkha Rifles in Nanuki, Kenya, where they were conducting live firing training. It was altogether a fascinating experience. Not personally being an aficionado of curry, I found myself faced with something of a dilemma, which was that I either ate Gurkha curry or starved. In the circumstances, I decided to opt for the former rather than the latter, and I have to say that I found it very much better than I had expected. I did not take too close a look at how it was prepared, but it certainly tasted very good. When the soldiers had finished their live firing at the distant hill, they then had to go and put out the fire that they had made, which I understand they did with their bare feet. That is a message to the enemies of the United Kingdom—do not trifle with a Gurkha because they are tough.
I mentioned the long association that Aldershot has had with the Gurkhas. That has inevitably meant that a large proportion of the Nepalese who chose to reside in the United Kingdom following the recent settlement changes have overwhelmingly returned to Aldershot, the predominant place in Britain that they have memories of or an affiliation with. While that is understandable, it has placed enormous strain on local services and on the local area. The campaign launched by Joanna Lumley secured for Gurkhas who had served four years or more and had retired before 1 July 1997 the right to settle in the United Kingdom. That was granted by the previous Labour Government, entitling some 25,000 predominantly elderly ex-soldiers to enter the UK with their wives and dependants. It is important to understand that that involves upwards of 100,000 people. As a direct result, my constituency of Aldershot has seen a very significant change in its population. In 2011, Rushmoor borough council estimated that of the 90,000 citizens of Rushmoor, which is the local authority area covering Aldershot and Farnborough, up to 10,000 are Nepalese.
I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will recognise the huge challenge that that sudden and significant change has created in my constituency. The problem does not lie with the younger, recently retired ex-Gurkhas who speak good English and are very entrepreneurial; indeed, they are natural Conservatives. Many of them find work in the private security industry or start their own businesses. The problem arises with the older former Gurkhas—it is they who are presenting the challenges to my constituency. Generally unable to speak English, with virtually no job prospects, unfamiliar with our customs, and often with failing health, inevitably, because they are elderly, these new arrivals present a sad picture.
Major Tikendra Dewan, who is a good friend and chairman of the British Gurkha Welfare Society, which does a fantastic job in the constituency, has said:
“If you just take a ride around Aldershot, you can see so many Gurkhas just walking around like lost souls.”
Those words will certainly be echoed not only by my constituents but by any visitor to Aldershot. A visit to local surgeries—one GP practice has 3,000 Nepalese on its books—reveals waiting areas full of these elderly folk, as will a visit to the offices of Rushmoor borough council in Farnborough. This has been a tragic consequence of Miss Lumley’s campaign, which was based purely on emotion and not on the hard truths with which we politicians have to deal on a day-to-day basis. She and her campaign have done a major disservice to these elderly people and to the indigenous population, who have seen the character of Aldershot change massively. It is not fair on these elderly Nepalese and it is not fair on the locals, many of whom have also put their lives on the line for our country.
When I started to express concern about this matter, I received some disgusting e-mails from around the country asking how I could possibly say such things about the Gurkhas and saying how fantastic they are and how they put their lives on the line for their country. My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe made the same point, but thousands of my indigenous constituents have also put their lives on the line for the country. Aldershot is the home of the British Army and they are concerned about the way in which their town has changed. I cannot accept any extension to the right to settlement, which would only exacerbate an already serious problem.
Jackie Doyle-Price
This is an important issue and we need to make it clear to the community that people are being misled and encouraged to come to this country through false promises that they will be able to bring their families with them. Will my hon. Friend join me in condemning people such as immigration lawyers who continue to take money from these people to make appeals that will never be satisfied?
Sir Gerald Howarth
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for making a very important point. Research ought to be done into the activities of some of these middlemen, who undoubtedly are in it for the money. It is they who have benefited from visiting on these people a misery they do not deserve and from which they should have been spared. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.
In view of all the serious changes in my constituency, I had a meeting with the Prime Minister in 2011 to ask for further funding to enable the local authority and others to provide the badly needed additional support generated by the number of new Nepalese in the area. I managed to secure £1.5 million in total, which was provided by three Departments: the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office and the Department for International Development. Of that, about £1 million went to Rushmoor borough council.
As I have mentioned before, many of these elderly Nepalese struggle with ill health. What people might not realise is that, as well as the significant increase in the number of elderly people requiring health care at local GP surgeries, there is a huge need for Nepali-to-English translators to help explain to the doctors the needs of their patients. One doctor asked me, “How can I deal with a female patient with gynaecological problems who speaks no English and whose 12-year-old son has to translate for her?” That is wrong. Of course, this has resulted in longer patient time, so the indigenous population are having to wait longer to see their general practitioner. These are practical problems that have presented themselves, and I hope the House will recognise that that is but one of a number of hidden extra costs.
Let me turn specifically to the issue of Gurkha pensions. Until 1 July 1997, the Brigade of Gurkhas was regarded as an overseas force and its home base was in the far east; prior to Hong Kong, it had been in Singapore and Malaysia. In accordance with the tripartite agreement of 1947 between the Government of Nepal, the Government of India and the British Government, commonality was provided with respect to key service conditions such as pay and pensions, irrespective of whether they were enlisted in British or Indian armies—it is, of course, important to remember that the bulk of Nepalese recruited to the flag went to the Indian army, not the British Army.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock has said, most would serve for 15 years, following which they would be paid an immediate pension designed to provide a comfortable living in Nepal, which is where they were expected to—and virtually always did—return. Furthermore, as young men they were clearly able to take up new careers upon leaving the Army. By contrast, their British counterparts had to serve 22 years before being eligible for a pension, which became payable only at the age of 60, rather than upon immediate retirement. Thus, the Gurkhas returned to Nepal often in possession of a pension more than 25 years before their British counterparts. Over the course of a retirement, most Gurkha soldiers will receive equivalent or better value than their British counterparts as a result of being paid their pensions so much earlier. Moreover, the Ministry of Defence contributes more than £1 million a year to the Gurkha Welfare Trust in Nepal, which enables the trust to use its funds to care for the needy.
Following the return of Hong Kong to China, the Brigade of Gurkhas had to leave, naturally, and, apart from those stationed in Brunei, where the Sultan himself funds the Gurkha battalion, they moved to the United Kingdom, together with their families, meaning that their children were brought up in English schools. Thus, from 2004, those with four years or more service became entitled to apply for settlement in the United Kingdom. By 2007, those serving in the British Army were paid exactly the same as their British counter- parts.
In 2009, in response to the Lumley campaign, the then Home Secretary announced a change in policy on Gurkha settlement rights for those who had retired before 1 July 1997 and had completed four years’ service. They would have the right to settle in the UK with their spouses and dependent children. However, it is important to remember that there had been an agreement among the parties to the discussions that there was no direct read-across to policy on pensions. The then Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, said that
“the question of equalising Gurkha pensions should not and need not be conflated with the debate about settlement”.—[Official Report, 21 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 1650.]
The then Minister for veterans, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—in order to embarrass him I will place on the record that we are very good friends; that should do his career some damage, and as he is not here I can freely say that—said in a written answer that the
“estimate of the capitalised cost of providing retired Gurkhas with Armed Forces Pension Scheme (AFPS) equivalent pension benefits for all pensionable service before 1 July 1997”—[Official Report, 8 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 789W.]
was a whopping £1.5 billion.
It is important to underline that these pension arrangements have withstood no less than three major legal challenges in the past nine years. The three judicial reviews found the pension arrangements for Gurkhas to be fair and reasonable.
There has been much debate and controversy over the decision to build the changes around the date of 1 July 1997. However, given that was the date the UK became the home base for the Gurkhas, together with changes to immigration rules, which were updated to 1 July 1997, there was an increasing probability that Gurkhas would seek to retire to the UK on discharge. Up until that point, it was accepted that Gurkhas would be recruited in Nepal as Nepalese citizens, serve as Nepalese citizens and be discharged as Nepalese citizens in Nepal. However, given the change in their home base from Hong Kong to the UK, that could no longer be fairly assumed to be the case.
In his judgment of 2008, Mr Justice Ouseley said:
“A line was drawn; that was in itself reasonable, and the particular dates chosen for its drawing are reasonable too. The difference reflects not age in reality but the number of years of service based in the Far East or in the UK. If there was indirect discrimination on the grounds of age of ‘other status’, it was justified and proportionate.”
The Court of Appeal upheld the January 2010 ruling, which comprehensively rejected the argument that Gurkha pension arrangements were irrational, unfair or discriminatory. However, the legal process continues and the judgment remains the subject of an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.
I have every sympathy with the British Gurkha Welfare Society. It is a vibrant organisation and is well led by my friend, Major Tikendra Dewan, but as a former Defence Minister and having considered the matter carefully, I cannot support this campaign. The guys at BGWS are doing a great job. They are entrepreneurial and have their own energy company—I hope to sign up to their energy provision—whose new office will be officially inaugurated by the new Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd). They also have a radio station. They are a great organisation. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock, however, I do not think that there can be a retrospective change, and I salute her for having the courage and honesty to say so. The Ministry of Defence does not have £1.5 billion to pay up. No doubt the Minister will nod.
Sir Gerald Howarth
For the sake of the record, the Minister has nodded. Such treatment would not be fair, as the Forces Pension Society has a number of other claims for the correction of past anomalies that the Ministry of Defence has consistently resisted. The Department has been subjected to no fewer than three legal challenges, all of which have been rejected, so it has neither been capricious nor discriminatory.
Those who took advantage of the right to settle here knew very well the terms on which the offer was made. If they were misled, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock suggested—and I think that she is right—that was not the fault of the British Government. Furthermore, although they receive no uplift in their pensions, they receive a range of benefits designed to help them, as she said. They also have access to the best free health care facilities and support from a range of organisations.
Of course, as my hon. Friend said, there is an argument that as such welfare benefit costs are themselves substantial, why not therefore just increase the pensions, because the overall cost to the British Government would not change? That may or may not be true, but it would undoubtedly be a magnet for further migration, and without a policy of dispersing new arrivals, the burden would unquestionably fall on Aldershot. If any measure is to be taken, perhaps our bloated overseas aid budget could come to the rescue and be used to provide new health facilities in Nepal. My hon. Friend’s idea of an endowment for the Gurkha Welfare Trust is a good one. She has come up with some very practical suggestions, for which I salute her.
I want to end on a positive note. The changes inflicted on my constituency have been massive, but thanks in part to the Prime Minister’s intervention, which resulted in the additional £1.5 million of funding, and in large measure to the unremitting efforts of Conservative Rushmoor borough council—so ably led by its leader, Councillor Peter Moyle, and by its remarkable chief executive, Andrew Lloyd—early problems have been addressed by a raft of initiatives aimed at securing social cohesion.
Although there were undoubtedly problems initially, particularly among the younger, newly arrived Nepalese—not, of course, those who served in the Army—we have seen Nepali groups and white groups playing football, and a fantastic effort has been made across Rushmoor to integrate; and it is working, and has done well. This is my plea: those who have come here are, of course, welcome and we will do what we can for them, but I cannot in all conscience stand in the way of my constituents, some of whom have chosen to leave Aldershot because they are distressed at how their town has changed, or do other than to stand up for them. However, the good news is that the initiatives taken have resulted in a much greater degree of social cohesion, and I hope that we will continue to move in that direction of travel.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I, too, thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing time on the Floor of the House to debate this important subject. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) for the extraordinary work she and her office did—and, I understand, that of my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins)—in organising the inquiry. The logistics of organising it were quite immense. I guess that more than 200 people attended some of the hearings. It was a magnificent sight to see serving and veteran Gurkhas in the Committee Rooms on the floor above the Chamber.
Many of the subjects addressed by the inquiry report have already been mentioned in hon. Members’ contributions, but what brings together many of our interests is that we have Gurkhas in our constituencies. In Brecon and Radnor, based around the old garrison town of Brecon, we have the Mandalay company of Gurkhas, which is a demonstration unit for the training of senior non-commissioned officers in the British Army. Much of the training takes place in Sennybridge or up on the Epynt ranges. The Gurkha soldiers act both as forces to be commanded by the senior NCOs, or as attack forces so that the senior NCOs can organise defences. The Gurkhas play a very valuable role in ensuring that our NCOs in the British Army are of the highest calibre and quality.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) mentioned the consequences of resettlement, and we certainly have some of the same consequences in Brecon, although not on the same scale. Seeing elderly Gurkhas walking around the streets of Brecon, unable to understand where they are or to communicate with the rest of the community, is quite distressing. The Gurkhas are in general very welcome in Brecon, and their children are certainly very welcome in our schools. If I may put it this way, Brecon and Radnorshire does not have a very ethnically diverse community, so having Gurkha children in school is a real advantage to our schoolchildren.
The Gurkhas have been given the freedom of the borough of Brecon. Every year they march through Brecon in a wonderful ceremony, in which they bear arms—they are allowed to do so, having been given the freedom of the borough—and afterwards we are entertained by a display of dancing by Gurkha soldiers and children, which provides a real element of cohesion.
The more elderly Gurkhas who come to Brecon, without the ability to speak English, certainly have great difficulty in dealing with benefits and such issues, and that can be quite distressing. I have tried, although not with my hon. Friend’s success, to get extra funds for a support officer for the Gurkhas.
Sir Gerald Howarth
My hon. Friend is making a very important point. The £1.5 million that came to Rushmoor was not exclusively for Rushmoor. The council, particularly its chief executive, Andrew Lloyd, has done a huge amount of work to try to use some of the money to help other councils that are similarly affected. I cannot promise anything, but if my hon. Friend would like to write me a note, I will see what I can do.
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this incredibly important debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing it. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), who has been a champion of Gurkha welfare. The campaign she has run, both individually and as part of the all-party group, has been a master-class in getting an issue to the forefront of Ministers’ minds. She made a brilliant speech, and I will not repeat the points that she or other hon. Members have made in this interesting debate.
I pay tribute to the Gurkha veterans who live in my constituency. Mr Bhutia, Mr Rai, Mr Garong and Mr Thapa have been to see me several times to explain their concerns in detail. I pay tribute to Tashi Bhutia, whom I am proud to call a friend. He was the first Conservative Gurkha councillor, which makes the point mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth). He is standing again for the council in next year’s elections. He has made a valuable contribution to the community, not only as an elected politician, but as a local family man who represents the Gurkha community, and as a much-valued employee of BAE Rochester. He has integrated very well into the community—he and his family have lived in this country for more than 20 years—and acts as a major conduit between other members of the Gurkha community and elected politicians such as me.
The Gurkha community has a clear association with Kent and Medway. As my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) said—Hythe is my home town—many Gurkhas have settled in the area around the coastal barracks of Shorncliffe. It was right that the military parade before the unveiling of the Step Short memorial arch by His Royal Highness Prince Harry in Folkestone on 4 August—my hon. Friend was chairman of the committee—was led by the band of the Brigade of Gurkhas. That was incredibly appreciated by the local community throughout the county. It was well respected as a consequence.
Other hon. Members have made it clear that the Gurkhas have served this nation with great pride and loyalty. Many sacrificed their lives for our nation’s freedom and democracy. Nobody underestimates that. We all have sympathy with the fact that all they ask is to be valued equally to their British and Commonwealth counterparts. I hear hon. Members’ concerns about whether terms and conditions can be rewritten, but I think there is a gap that needs to be addressed, and I will come to that shortly.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe, I supported the Joanna Lumley campaign. I appreciate the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot—I am not in the same position, as a constituency MP, but people should respect his standing up for his wider constituency in outlining possible unintended consequences of the resettlement campaign. Nevertheless, I think it was the right campaign and the right outcome.
Sir Gerald Howarth
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being so understanding, because it is important that people realise that Aldershot is particularly affected. I must put it on the record, however, that many of my constituents feel extremely aggrieved that Joanna Lumley, having run that very emotional campaign, has been nowhere near Aldershot ever since, as far as I am aware.
Tracey Crouch
It is important that my hon. Friend does that, but the issue of resettlement was an emotional one; everybody in the nation got caught up in the campaign, one way or another. As my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) made clear, it was a good campaign at the time. It might have had unintended consequences, but goodness—if we thought only about the possible unintended consequences of what we do in the House and of campaigns we run, we would do nothing. It is fair to say, however, that the vast numbers forecast to flood into the UK did not appear, and many who came now live in poverty—an unfortunate and unforeseen consequence of the resettlement campaign.
My constituents tell me they want to live a life of dignity, not live on charity handouts from the Ministry of Defence and others, but unfortunately that is happening, and in many respects that is the nub of the issue. I congratulate the British Gurkha Welfare Society on its ongoing campaign. It is important to recognise that much progress has been made on the welfare of Gurkhas in the UK. We have mentioned the settlement rights, but much progress has also been made on visas and access to rehabilitation, as I have seen in my constituency with a horrifically injured Gurkha being cared for by the Royal British Legion Industries in Aylesford—a site that has been a rehabilitation centre since the beginning of the first world war. Progress has also been made regarding the financial support for those settling in the UK.
Furthermore, the Department for International Development has spent, and continues to spend, a lot of money supporting programmes to improve access to quality health services in Nepal. As was mentioned, the Nepal health sector programme provides £72 million on increasing access to those services, which, taken alongside the Government’s £1.5 million fund to help Gurkhas settle in the UK, represents an incredibly important financial investment.
I want to address the thorny issue of pensions. The British Gurkha Welfare Society states on its website that,
“Gurkhas receive a pension of only £2,150 per year with the many that relocate to the UK being reliant on pension tax credits and State benefits to survive. A pension of £5,000 per year would enable these veterans to live out their lives in comfort and without reliance on charity”.
My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock made that point incredibly well. If we address some of the gap between what they currently receive and what they should receive—not, I appreciate, as part of their terms and conditions, but perhaps in the spirit that my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe mentioned —ironically we could end up saving the state money, because it would reduce their reliance on state benefits.
That said, I recognise that this issue is before the European Court, so I would not encourage the Minister to make any further statement or commitment today, but we need to think about how and why people joined the British Army and how they have been treated since their service. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and others about the 7,000 Gurkhas who get nothing at all is one that we need to look at—and thoroughly. When the report from the inquiry is published, I am sure that that will be a key aspect of it.
Sir Gerald Howarth
It is kind of my hon. Friend to give way yet again. Yes, these are hard cases, but I was a shadow Minister for veterans and I was made acutely aware of the range of existing anomalies for British ex-service personnel, not least the post-retirement marriage issue. It is all very well to say that we must give way here, but there will be a real outcry from many other former service personnel who have also served our country and feel that they have a grievance. If this one is addressed before their grievances, my hon. Friend will get a few letters.
Tracey Crouch
I am glad to have given way to my hon. Friend, who raises an incredibly valid point. The Minister is aware that she has letters on her desk, awaiting signature, in reply to me on this very matter. I am not suggesting that one grievance should take priority over another; I am simply saying that this one must be addressed. There certainly is an anomaly; there is a gap, and it is only right and fair to have a look at it. The proposal by my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock on LIBOR is an excellent idea. If that can somehow help to reduce some of the burden and the gap, I think it would be the right way forward.
We should be—I think most of us generally are—very proud of how the nation views and respects our armed forces: both those serving now and those who have served. I do not believe that anyone thinks there should be any discrimination within that. The report from the inquiry will be essential. As many have pointed out, with the 200th anniversary coming up next year, now is the right time to address these outstanding issues. I look forward to reading the report. Once again, I congratulate all those involved. My interest in the issue is not just one of emotion. I want to represent my constituents who have fought and served this country abroad while serving within the Brigade of Gurkhas. I am proud to call many of them my friends, and I hope that we will be able to address this matter within acceptable time scales.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)
I thank the Backbench Business Committee for ensuring that the debate has come into this place. I also want to pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). It is important that I set the record straight regarding certain comments by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), of whom I make no criticism. There might have been a suggestion, given the note from my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock that he described, that she had been reluctant to take on this task, but that is not the case. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Gurkha welfare, she took on the task, with absolutely no support other than from fellow members of the group, knowing that it would be hugely complex and emotive. As has been mentioned, she has had support from my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and other members of his team.
We have heard some great speeches this afternoon. During the debate—I hope Members will forgive me—I was talking to the Solicitor-General, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), and we were trying to recall whether an all-party group had ever taken on such a task without the support of any charity or industry. This might be a bit of a first. I do not know; it does not matter. The point is that they have done it, and we look forward to the report.
I do not hesitate to tell the House that I agree with almost everything that my hon. Friend—as she now is, on this point—the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) said. She commented on the absence of Labour Members from the Chamber today; indeed, the same applies to my side of the Chamber to some extent. It is important for people to understand that that is not a reflection of any lack of interest in this important matter. Perhaps the public at large do not appreciate that Members of Parliament do not have to be in the Chamber to take a firm interest in a debate. They can watch it in their rooms, but in any event they will read it in Hansard, either electronically or on paper. I know that that will happen.
The biggest tribute that I want to pay today is to every member of the Gurkha community and, in particular, to all those who have served. They rightly deserve their reputation as being among the bravest and most fearless of soldiers. It was one of my great pleasures, honours and treats to go along to their regimental dinner earlier in the summer. I watched as they drilled and marched as the band played, and it was fabulous. I have never experienced anything like it. Those are perhaps the exterior things, the extra bits, but at the heart of the matter is their reputation for courage. It is often said that they are the most fearless of soldiers. Next year, the Gurkhas will celebrate 200 years of service to the Crown, and we look forward to the celebrations and commemorations. The United Kingdom—let us hope that it remains the United Kingdom—is proud of the Gurkhas, and we have always sought to meet the aspirations of successive generations of Gurkha soldiers and their families. I should like to put that into the context of the subject of the debate.
In 2009, our appreciation of the Gurkhas culminated in Parliament’s decision to permit Gurkhas discharged before 1 July 1997 to settle here in the United Kingdom. Many retired Gurkhas have since done so, and many have received vital welfare support and medical treatment as a result. However, as we have heard today, those settling here also became aware of differences between Gurkha terms and conditions and those of the rest of our armed forces. In particular, as many speakers have mentioned, they have highlighted the difference between a Gurkha pension pre-1997 and that of their British counterparts. Suffice it to say, these are complex issues, rooted in a set of unique historical and political circumstances, but context is all and I am grateful for the opportunity to set out the Government’s position. Of course we welcome the report and I assure hon. Members that it will be read and analysed, and all points will be considered. Most importantly, my door will be open to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and to other hon. Members who have served so well on her all-party group.
The Government’s view is that the Gurkha pension, established in 1947 by the tripartite agreement between the UK, Nepal and India, was fair for the time and did not disadvantage Gurkhas. There are three reasons why I say that. First, although the Gurkha pension was smaller, it was paid for a much longer period. Gurkhas received an immediate pension after 15 years’ service, typically in their early 30s. By contrast, British personnel who served less than 22 years prior to 1975 receive no pension. A calculation made in 2009 showed that a Gurkha rifleman who retired in 1994 will have received some £61,000 at 2009 prices by the age of 60—his British comparator will have received nothing at all.
Secondly, the Gurkha pension placed Gurkhas among Nepal’s highest earners as a result. Significantly, a retired Lieutenant—a Queen’s Gurkha officer—with 24 years of service receives a pension more generous than the salary of Nepal’s Prime Minister. Thirdly, over the years Gurkhas’ pensions evolved as they benefited from the flexibility built into their terms and conditions. That meant that we were able to enhance their pensions to suit changing circumstances. Initially, as we have heard, Gurkhas mainly served in the far east, but when they undertook temporary posting to the UK or other overseas locations they were entitled to a cost of living addition. From 1997, when Gurkhas were based in the UK, they received a universal addition regardless of where they then served. Since 2007 Gurkhas joining our armed forces have been placed on an equal footing with the rest of the Army.
The argument has been made by others, and it is the right argument, that all those who receive a pension are bound by the rules of the game. Those who did not serve the requisite period of time or who came to this country on a pre-1997 pension cannot expect their pension arrangements to change. I should add that it would be the same in the case of a British soldier. The legal principle that individuals receive benefits in accordance with the scheme rules is well founded. As we heard, retrospective changes are not good and cannot be right—as is the principle, upheld by successive Governments, that improvements to pensions schemes are not made retrospectively. There are many quotes on that from previous Ministers of State for the Armed Forces and Ministers in my position. All of them, whatever the colour of the Government, support that important principle.
However, decisions can be reviewed in circumstances where incorrect information was provided to individuals. We have heard about the ramifications of mixed marriage, which make for uncomfortable listening in our, happily, more enlightened age. I want to know more about any Gurkha who finds himself in that situation. I want to know the detail, to have those cases placed before me and to get those things sorted out. I find the fact that Gurkhas were given dummy national insurance numbers utterly bizarre, and my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General and I were debating it. It is almost as if money were obtained by some deception, in that people were paying in money but they have had no benefit from it. Again, I make no promises, but that cannot be right and we need to sort that out. My door is open and I want to have proper discussions about how we can do that.
That brings me back to the first speech in this excellent debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock spoke about fairness. This is about fairness, but it is also about having a mature dialogue. I listened with great care to the points that she so ably advanced, and to the points that were taken up by others. I will, if I may, respond to some of them now.
My hon. Friends the Members for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) and for Thurrock talked about the role of some sort of middleman. I always shy away from making adverse comments about lawyers, as I was a lawyer in a previous life. In all seriousness, I am concerned that there might be individuals who seek to exploit Gurkhas, or ex-Gurkhas, in Nepal. I will ask my officials both in the United Kingdom and in the embassy in Nepal to explore that matter so that we do all we can to ensure that that those who wish to come to the United Kingdom are not only fully and properly informed but not in any way exploited.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reading East made a point about the Department for International Development, which was taken up by others. Let me just say this: DFID has been investing in the health sector in Nepal for nearly 17 years; it has contributed more than £19.7 million to the rural water and sanitation programme of the Gurkha welfare scheme since 1989. In addition, its operational plan commits up to £331 million of UK official development assistance during the period of 2011 to 2015. The DFID Nepal programme now totals around £90 million to £100 million per annum. I hope that my hon. Friend finds that helpful and useful.
My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe gave a well crafted speech, which made some very good points. The great work of the Gurkha Welfare Trust was mentioned. It was suggested that a boost in LIBOR funds could be a way to solve some of these feelings of injustice and unfairness and, most importantly, these feelings that a need is not being met.
I am grateful to all Members for their comments, including my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). In relation to his point about funding, which my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot says has benefited his constituency, I am helpfully advised by my officials and by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General that that £1.5 million funding is available for Gurkhas in his constituency. I would be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire to talk about how we can ensure that his constituents benefit.
Joanna Lumley’s campaign has been mentioned. I am aware of the comments of my hon. Friends the Members for Aldershot and for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). Let me say this, if I may: Joanna Lumley’s campaign had the highest and most honourable of motives. It was welcomed and it was the right thing to do. None the less, I accept the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot, who said that there have been some unintended consequences.
Sir Gerald Howarth
It is important that the House understands that those consequences were not entirely unforeseen. At the time, I suggested that there were potential consequences by virtue of the fact that Aldershot has an historic association with the Gurkha community. I would not like it to be thought that somehow this has all suddenly come upon us without any warning.
Anna Soubry
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the comment, but I would counter it by saying that we are where we are. We have to deal with the reality of where we are and see whether we can make things considerably better for those who find themselves away from home, struggling to speak English and in the circumstances described, while ensuring that their welfare is an absolute priority. Those things must be done as we take these matters into consideration.
In conclusion, we believe that the terms and conditions of the Gurkhas were fair but, having said that, we also understand the concerns of those who, having fought for this country, settled here and subsequently found themselves in difficulty. That is why we are so grateful to all those who have participated in the inquiry and we look forward to the report’s conclusions. Its focus has been on resolving historical anomalies and that must be right.
Today’s Gurkhas, in terms of engagement, pay, allowances and pension matters, are regarded no differently from personnel in any other part of the Army. Again, I thank all who have taken part in the debate and in the inquiry and we look forward to the report.