Gurkha Pensions

Jackie Doyle-Price Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Gurkha pensions and terms of employment.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for making time to debate the issue of Gurkha pensions and other issues. This is the first time in this Parliament that we have had the chance to consider Gurkha issues, in contrast to the attention they received in the previous Parliament. Last year, the all-party group on Gurkha welfare began an inquiry into the outstanding Gurkha grievances, with a particular focus on pensions. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) for their support during the inquiry. I pay tribute to Deepak Maskey and the Satyagraha committee, who have engaged with the inquiry with passion and professionalism and have been powerful advocates. They have engaged positively with the institutions of our democracy to make their case and I hope that these issues will now be considered in the spirit of mature dialogue, not least because they will feel that they are being heard and not ignored.

Before we complete our inquiry and submit our report to the Government before the end of the year, we wish to seek the views of the House on these matters. It is a shame that other issues going on in the kingdom might mean that one or two Members are not in the Chamber today, given the level of interest in this issue. It is particularly important that we consider these questions now, not least because the extension of the right to settlement has brought some of the outstanding issues to the fore.

The critical point is about the Gurkha pension and the case for equality. Today’s Gurkha soldiers join the British Army with the same arrangements as British soldiers, whereas those who served before 1997 did not. They claim that they are not being treated equally and that there are two classes of Gurkha veteran, whereas the Ministry of Defence states that it has honoured the terms and conditions under which the Gurkhas were recruited. Those positions are both correct, if diametrically opposed, and it is our challenge as parliamentarians to establish what is fair and what our obligations are to these men who served our country, particularly in view of the military covenant, which gives us obligations to all our Army veterans.

The basis on which the Gurkhas are recruited into the British Army is governed by the tripartite agreement with India and Nepal that established the Gurkhas as an integral part of the British Army, not as mercenaries. The agreement also enshrines parity for Gurkha soldiers with the pay code of the Indian army and states that on completion of service they would return to Nepal. At the time the tripartite agreement was agreed that was a reasonable assumption, but over time, as Britain’s global footprint changed, more Gurkha soldiers found themselves based in the UK. With limited opportunities to work in Nepal at the end of their service, they increasingly chose to settle here and Gurkha terms and conditions did not keep pace with that change. That is regrettable and has led us to where we are now.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and put on record the House’s view that she has been an amazing champion of the Gurkhas in all she has done. Although we owe a huge debt to them, does she agree that the inquiry she has led so ably on a cross-party basis and today’s debate are an opportunity for us properly to address the issues that are concerning us in the report?

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

Absolutely, and that is very much the spirit in which we have approached the inquiry. We have tried to understand the issues from a Gurkha perspective, but we want to hear from other Members about the wider perspective. Ultimately, we are talking about issues that will impact on the whole British Army and that will have a bearing on the future of the Gurkha regiment in the British Army, and I am sure we all wish to retain that, as we are soon to celebrate 200 years of Gurkha service and we hope to have more. We must also be conscious that we are the guardians of the taxpayers’ pound. Anything we do to address any grievances must bear all those principles in mind, and I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention.

Approximately 20,000 veterans are in receipt of Gurkha pensions. The Gurkha pension scheme was established in 1947 by royal warrant and is the oldest pension scheme in the armed forces. It should be noted that pensions for British service personnel were not introduced until 1975. The scheme was designed to give Gurkhas sufficient to live on in retirement in Nepal and was paid on completion of 15 years’ service from the point of exit. That is an important principle to bear in mind. The fact that it was established indicates a desire at the time to do right by Gurkha veterans as they retired to Nepal, recognising that on their return there would be limited employment opportunities. It was, dare I say, extremely consistent with our obligations under the military covenant.

The pensioners are today typically on incomes of about £223 a month. We are advised that that can purchase a good standard of living in Nepal, although for those who have settled in the UK it is clearly inadequate. It is those pensioners who believe they should be entitled to the same level of pension as British service personnel.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I, too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the magnificent work she has done in seeking to find a just solution to this problem. She mentions that the Gurkha pension scheme was available on the completion of 15 years of service. Am I right in thinking that at the same time the British Army pension scheme was available at 20 years of service, thereby giving the Gurkha soldier a significant time advantage over the rest of the British Army?

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

Twenty-two.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) is quite right, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) says from a sedentary position, it was in fact 22 years. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire goes to the heart of this: we are comparing apples and oranges when we try to compare Gurkha pensions with British service pensions. They are separate and different, so the key is not equality but fairness. That is the spirit in which our inquiry has been undertaken.

Clearly, there can be no retrospective change to terms and conditions of employment, but I ask that the Government look carefully at the adequacy of the Gurkha pension, particularly in relation to the Indian Gurkha pension and their additional benefits and the cost of living in Nepal. We want a commitment that that will continue to be held in review.

The all-party group was more concerned, however, about those Gurkha veterans who receive no pension. There are a good number of them. Some are veterans of the second world war who left long before the introduction of the Gurkha pension, and in addition some 7,000 veterans receive nothing as they did not complete 15 years of service. We are not satisfied that all those veterans are being treated fairly and we believe that they should be afforded the dignity and honour that service in the British Army should bring.

At the moment, these people are dependent on Gurkha welfare pensions of some £40 a month, administered by the Gurkha Welfare Trust. The all-party group believes that those who were made redundant or unfairly dismissed should have a formal entitlement to a pension, as should those who were medically retired. I note that the Government are in receipt of LIBOR money that is being used to fund services for our veterans, so we would ask that the Government consider making a generous endowment to the Gurkha Welfare Trust to enable it to support those veterans more effectively. We also want them to consider whether it is appropriate that those who were made redundant and were unable to serve 15 years through no choice of their own should be given some formal entitlement to a pension.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; if I catch your eye later, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will pay tribute to her for the work that she has done. I believe we were also told that some Gurkhas who are now resettled in this country would prefer to stay in Nepal if they had a pension that made it easier for them and their families to live there.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend makes exactly the point that brought those issues to the fore. The pension terms that we give the Gurkhas are generous for living in Nepal, but not for living here, and they now have the right of settlement. That has brought with it some financial incentives to come to this country. We need to look at that issue in a more mature manner, because there is an additional cost to the taxpayer and it is not necessarily good for the welfare of those people if they move here just because it is financially desirable to do so.

That brings me to the points that I really want to make. Gurkha pensioners receive an income, but if they move to the UK they have access to pension credit, housing benefit and all our public services. We think that the Government could achieve a revenue saving by spending more on Gurkha pensions, thereby saving on welfare bills. That could make the issue hugely complex, but it brings home one of the unintended consequences of extending the right to settlement.

One aspect that we think worth considering—it might be a solution—is whether Gurkhas should have been able to build up national insurance credits, which would have entitled them to a pension. Before 1997, Gurkha soldiers were denied that opportunity. However, Gurkhas were issued with a dummy national insurance number. Many have been surprised subsequently to learn that they have not built up their contributions. Had they been able to do so, they would have generated credits towards a UK state pension, which would have been exportable to Nepal and removed that financial incentive to come here. That would bear examination by the Government; at best it would be revenue-neutral, but it might generate a revenue saving.

We can show why it is financially lucrative for Gurkha veterans to move to the UK. We heard from one veteran who was medically retired after eight years’ service following serious injuries sustained in the Falklands war. He advised us that he received just £33 per month disablement pension, but on moving to the UK he can claim benefits far in excess of that. Furthermore, he receives free health care, as opposed to having had to pay for any health care he might have received in Nepal.

Most Gurkha migrants are in work and the impact of their settlement here is positive, but we are concerned for the elderly Gurkhas with no pension who are selling up all they have in Nepal with only the prospect of a life on benefits here, away from their friends and families. Naturally, many have congregated where there is a critical mass of retired Gurkhas, in particular in Aldershot. That is adding significantly to the burden on local services and is not conducive to the integration of that migrant community. It is not good for the reputation of the migrant Gurkhas elsewhere in the country who live quite cohesively and, indeed, are much valued and loved. I say that with reference to my constituency of Thurrock, where we have a good number of Gurkha families settled who are well established and much loved.

However, it is not good for elderly veterans to settle here just because they have no access to a pension. Many of them do not speak English and they have left their families behind. I am advised that there are 1,000 widows here who have come with the expectation of bringing their families in due course. That will not be possible. Other elderly Gurkhas live on benefits and send money back home, and some are persuaded of the view that with more and more Gurkhas settling, it is only a matter of time before the pension is equalised. They are being given false hope. For their welfare, we need to be quite clear with them by addressing all their grievances, one way or another.

Our report contains a number of recommendations on those issues and a number of others, including whether we are doing enough to provide health care facilities in Nepal for veterans. I hope that when we submit the report the Minister will engage with it constructively, as she has throughout our inquiry. I am sure she agrees that it is only right that we give appropriate challenge to how we are dealing with the issues surrounding our Gurkha veterans, to ensure that this Government and this country do right by people who have given service to our country.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

I pay tribute to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) and to the terrific work she has done leading the inquiry on Gurkha pensions and welfare, which has been a considerable piece of work. Hon. Members will know that all-party groups do not have the resources of Select Committees or formal Committees of the House; nor do they have huge secretariats and teams to support them, so holding such an inquiry is a considerable undertaking. I congratulate her on that.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend is being too generous. He generously made his office available to support me and I am very grateful for that.

[Damian Collins]

It is kind of my hon. Friend to mention that. I thank Daniel Kirkpatrick from my office, who worked on the inquiry.

Like my hon. Friend, I have served on Select Committees and on big inquiries that attracted a lot of attention from the outside world, but I have never attended hearings that attracted such a large audience from the public as did the Gurkha welfare inquiry hearings. Hundreds of members of the Gurkha community and veterans came to listen to the evidence sessions to make their point, which clearly showed the strong feeling in the Gurkha community that serious outstanding issues have to be considered.

As Member of Parliament for Folkestone, I am proud to represent a significant Gurkha and Nepalese community. Shorncliffe barracks in Folkestone is the home barracks for the Royal Gurkha Rifles. We take an active interest in their work and they have conducted themselves with great distinction on numerous tours of duty in Afghanistan and service throughout the world for the British armed forces. We are extremely grateful for everything they have done. The Gurkhas clearly play a unique role in the British Army and we greatly benefit from that.

My hon. Friend set out clearly the issues that the inquiry covered, on Gurkha pensions and Gurkha welfare. I shall not repeat everything she said, but she hit on the most important aspect, which is that there needs to be fairness in the way we deal with those issues from the past. We are approaching the 200th anniversary of the start of this country’s cordial relationship with Nepal. This year, which marks the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war, is the right time to reflect on the service of the Gurkhas to the British armed forces, their service to this country and the amount we have benefited from that service. We should also consider what outstanding historical issues need to be resolved.

I supported the Gurkha campaign to give Gurkhas the right to live and settle in the United Kingdom. Service to this country through the armed forces should in itself be a means of qualifying for British citizenship; I see nothing wrong with that. Indeed, many people around the world who qualify for British citizenship do not have the track record of service to our country that Gurkha veterans have. If someone is prepared to fight and die in the cause of Great Britain and its allies, they should have the right to live here. That is what the Gurkhas now have.

My hon. Friend was right to focus on, in particular, the rights of the 7,000 or so ex-Gurkhas who qualify for no pension at all because they did not complete 15 years’ service. Many of them are veterans of conflicts. Many are veterans of the campaign in Malaya. When that ended, they returned to discover that they no longer had a role and they were made redundant from their post in the Army. As they did not qualify, they did not receive a pension. We should consider whether they should receive a pension, based on the number of years they served short of 15 years, as compensation for their service. We considered that matter in great depth during the inquiry.

A number of Gurkhas were dismissed from their post—many of them believe unfairly, particularly with respect to the incident in Hawaii, which the committee looked at. We ask the Ministry of Defence to look again at that incident to consider whether Gurkhas might have been dismissed unfairly, and therefore to consider whether they should qualify for some pension, based on the number of years they served. As my hon. Friend said, we should also consider the case of Gurkhas who qualify for no pension who were medically discharged from the armed forces through no fault of their own.

We cannot rewrite the terms and conditions of 30 or 40 years ago or more, and no one has alleged that the Ministry of Defence or the Government have in any way not honoured the letter of the commitments made to the Gurkhas at the time, but the question is whether the spirit of those commitments was fair and whether decisions were taken some years ago that would not be taken today—if Ministers were taking those decisions now, they would act differently and in a way that was fairer and that recognised the significant contribution that those Gurkhas made to our armed forces, even though they did not complete 15 years’ service. It is sad to see people who served in our armed forces with distinction but fell short of 15 years’ service living on a pittance and in poor conditions. We would not want that for any veterans of our armed forces, and we do not want it for the Gurkha community.

It is important to consider providing more support for the Gurkha Welfare Trust to support Gurkhas living independently in this country. The fines that the Government have levied on the banks as a result of the manipulation of the LIBOR rates could be used to support military charities. The Gurkha Welfare Trust would be an extremely deserving cause and using some of that money to support Gurkha veterans would be extremely appropriate. I ask the Government seriously to consider that as an opportunity to meet some of the funding commitments that the inquiry sets out. We live in extremely straitened times, and however much we would like to resolve some of these outstanding Gurkha issues, we cannot pretend that there are limitless funds with which to do so. It would perhaps therefore be appropriate to use some of the LIBOR fine money for that purpose.

Through the Department for International Development, we are able to support Nepal as a country, an ally and a friend. Any commitment we could give to making investments through the DFID budget to support welfare and health services in Nepal that provided equality of service and was attractive to ex-Gurkhas could encourage some of them to stay in the country or to return there. Many of them would like to do that, as they said during the course of the inquiry. That would be an appropriate use of resources that would further help to solve the problem.

Encouraging Gurkhas who want to return home to do so, and providing some of them with a decent standard of living through a fair pension that is linked to their years of service in the armed forces, is not only the right thing to do but could save the Treasury funds in the long run, because ex-Gurkhas might then no longer be as reliant on benefits as some of them inevitably have to be currently, as their own income is so low due to receiving so little support from their pension for the service that they gave.

When Her Majesty the Queen made her state visit to Ireland, she said in her speech at Dublin castle that looking back at the history of Anglo-Irish relations, there are some things one would do differently and some things that one would not have done at all. When we look back at our very long friendship with the Nepalese nation and the wonderful years of service that Gurkhas have given to our country, I think we will say that there are some incidences where we would have done certain things differently or perhaps not have done them at all. As my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock presents the report from the all-party group’s inquiry, and as we approach the Gurkhas’ 200th anniversary and commemorate the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war, this is the right time to consider some of those outstanding issues and settle some of those old grievances.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I am delighted to take part in this debate. I join my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on the fantastic job she has done in dealing with a very sensitive, difficult and complex issue. She has carried out her duties with impeccable commitment and approached the issue with great interest and determination. As my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe said, it is important to point out that this was not in any sense an official inquiry, let alone a House of Commons inquiry or a Select Committee inquiry. It was a very ad hoc inquiry designed to try to see whether interested Members of Parliament could find a way through some of these thorny issues. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and agree with pretty much every word she said. I am grateful to her.

I see on the Labour Front Bench the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who is a great lady. I should like to put it on record that although she is alone, we know why that is. It is because at this difficult hour for our kingdom, her colleagues are doing what they should be doing, which is going to campaign in Scotland to persuade our friends in Scotland—our kith and kin—to remain part of this great United Kingdom, whose 300-year history we share and through which we have together contributed so much to the rest of the world. Lest anybody should think that Labour Members are not interested in this issue, let me say that we know that she is the representative of many of her colleagues and their opinions.

As both my hon. Friends said, the Gurkhas are held in very high regard across the United Kingdom. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock recognised, this issue is of particular interest and great concern for people in the constituency of Aldershot, which includes Farnborough.

I join others in placing on the record our gratitude for the service given by the Gurkha soldiers and their magnificent contribution to the British Army over nearly 200 years. I am honoured to represent the Queen’s Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment, which is based in Aldershot. There has long been a strong Gurkha presence in the garrison of Aldershot. Between 1971 and 2000, Queen Elizabeth barracks in Church Crookham—formerly in the Aldershot constituency but now, thanks to the growth in the population of the area, in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot)—served as the principal UK base for Gurkhas who were stationed in the United Kingdom.

Together with my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), I had the pleasure of serving in the AFPS, which, for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the acronym, is the armed forces parliamentary scheme, not the armed forces pension scheme. We spent three days with 1st Battalion Royal Gurkha Rifles in Nanuki, Kenya, where they were conducting live firing training. It was altogether a fascinating experience. Not personally being an aficionado of curry, I found myself faced with something of a dilemma, which was that I either ate Gurkha curry or starved. In the circumstances, I decided to opt for the former rather than the latter, and I have to say that I found it very much better than I had expected. I did not take too close a look at how it was prepared, but it certainly tasted very good. When the soldiers had finished their live firing at the distant hill, they then had to go and put out the fire that they had made, which I understand they did with their bare feet. That is a message to the enemies of the United Kingdom—do not trifle with a Gurkha because they are tough.

I mentioned the long association that Aldershot has had with the Gurkhas. That has inevitably meant that a large proportion of the Nepalese who chose to reside in the United Kingdom following the recent settlement changes have overwhelmingly returned to Aldershot, the predominant place in Britain that they have memories of or an affiliation with. While that is understandable, it has placed enormous strain on local services and on the local area. The campaign launched by Joanna Lumley secured for Gurkhas who had served four years or more and had retired before 1 July 1997 the right to settle in the United Kingdom. That was granted by the previous Labour Government, entitling some 25,000 predominantly elderly ex-soldiers to enter the UK with their wives and dependants. It is important to understand that that involves upwards of 100,000 people. As a direct result, my constituency of Aldershot has seen a very significant change in its population. In 2011, Rushmoor borough council estimated that of the 90,000 citizens of Rushmoor, which is the local authority area covering Aldershot and Farnborough, up to 10,000 are Nepalese.

I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will recognise the huge challenge that that sudden and significant change has created in my constituency. The problem does not lie with the younger, recently retired ex-Gurkhas who speak good English and are very entrepreneurial; indeed, they are natural Conservatives. Many of them find work in the private security industry or start their own businesses. The problem arises with the older former Gurkhas—it is they who are presenting the challenges to my constituency. Generally unable to speak English, with virtually no job prospects, unfamiliar with our customs, and often with failing health, inevitably, because they are elderly, these new arrivals present a sad picture.

Major Tikendra Dewan, who is a good friend and chairman of the British Gurkha Welfare Society, which does a fantastic job in the constituency, has said:

“If you just take a ride around Aldershot, you can see so many Gurkhas just walking around like lost souls.”

Those words will certainly be echoed not only by my constituents but by any visitor to Aldershot. A visit to local surgeries—one GP practice has 3,000 Nepalese on its books—reveals waiting areas full of these elderly folk, as will a visit to the offices of Rushmoor borough council in Farnborough. This has been a tragic consequence of Miss Lumley’s campaign, which was based purely on emotion and not on the hard truths with which we politicians have to deal on a day-to-day basis. She and her campaign have done a major disservice to these elderly people and to the indigenous population, who have seen the character of Aldershot change massively. It is not fair on these elderly Nepalese and it is not fair on the locals, many of whom have also put their lives on the line for our country.

When I started to express concern about this matter, I received some disgusting e-mails from around the country asking how I could possibly say such things about the Gurkhas and saying how fantastic they are and how they put their lives on the line for their country. My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe made the same point, but thousands of my indigenous constituents have also put their lives on the line for the country. Aldershot is the home of the British Army and they are concerned about the way in which their town has changed. I cannot accept any extension to the right to settlement, which would only exacerbate an already serious problem.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

This is an important issue and we need to make it clear to the community that people are being misled and encouraged to come to this country through false promises that they will be able to bring their families with them. Will my hon. Friend join me in condemning people such as immigration lawyers who continue to take money from these people to make appeals that will never be satisfied?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for making a very important point. Research ought to be done into the activities of some of these middlemen, who undoubtedly are in it for the money. It is they who have benefited from visiting on these people a misery they do not deserve and from which they should have been spared. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend.

In view of all the serious changes in my constituency, I had a meeting with the Prime Minister in 2011 to ask for further funding to enable the local authority and others to provide the badly needed additional support generated by the number of new Nepalese in the area. I managed to secure £1.5 million in total, which was provided by three Departments: the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office and the Department for International Development. Of that, about £1 million went to Rushmoor borough council.

As I have mentioned before, many of these elderly Nepalese struggle with ill health. What people might not realise is that, as well as the significant increase in the number of elderly people requiring health care at local GP surgeries, there is a huge need for Nepali-to-English translators to help explain to the doctors the needs of their patients. One doctor asked me, “How can I deal with a female patient with gynaecological problems who speaks no English and whose 12-year-old son has to translate for her?” That is wrong. Of course, this has resulted in longer patient time, so the indigenous population are having to wait longer to see their general practitioner. These are practical problems that have presented themselves, and I hope the House will recognise that that is but one of a number of hidden extra costs.

Let me turn specifically to the issue of Gurkha pensions. Until 1 July 1997, the Brigade of Gurkhas was regarded as an overseas force and its home base was in the far east; prior to Hong Kong, it had been in Singapore and Malaysia. In accordance with the tripartite agreement of 1947 between the Government of Nepal, the Government of India and the British Government, commonality was provided with respect to key service conditions such as pay and pensions, irrespective of whether they were enlisted in British or Indian armies—it is, of course, important to remember that the bulk of Nepalese recruited to the flag went to the Indian army, not the British Army.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock has said, most would serve for 15 years, following which they would be paid an immediate pension designed to provide a comfortable living in Nepal, which is where they were expected to—and virtually always did—return. Furthermore, as young men they were clearly able to take up new careers upon leaving the Army. By contrast, their British counterparts had to serve 22 years before being eligible for a pension, which became payable only at the age of 60, rather than upon immediate retirement. Thus, the Gurkhas returned to Nepal often in possession of a pension more than 25 years before their British counterparts. Over the course of a retirement, most Gurkha soldiers will receive equivalent or better value than their British counterparts as a result of being paid their pensions so much earlier. Moreover, the Ministry of Defence contributes more than £1 million a year to the Gurkha Welfare Trust in Nepal, which enables the trust to use its funds to care for the needy.

Following the return of Hong Kong to China, the Brigade of Gurkhas had to leave, naturally, and, apart from those stationed in Brunei, where the Sultan himself funds the Gurkha battalion, they moved to the United Kingdom, together with their families, meaning that their children were brought up in English schools. Thus, from 2004, those with four years or more service became entitled to apply for settlement in the United Kingdom. By 2007, those serving in the British Army were paid exactly the same as their British counter- parts.

In 2009, in response to the Lumley campaign, the then Home Secretary announced a change in policy on Gurkha settlement rights for those who had retired before 1 July 1997 and had completed four years’ service. They would have the right to settle in the UK with their spouses and dependent children. However, it is important to remember that there had been an agreement among the parties to the discussions that there was no direct read-across to policy on pensions. The then Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, said that

“the question of equalising Gurkha pensions should not and need not be conflated with the debate about settlement”.—[Official Report, 21 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 1650.]

The then Minister for veterans, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—in order to embarrass him I will place on the record that we are very good friends; that should do his career some damage, and as he is not here I can freely say that—said in a written answer that the

“estimate of the capitalised cost of providing retired Gurkhas with Armed Forces Pension Scheme (AFPS) equivalent pension benefits for all pensionable service before 1 July 1997”—[Official Report, 8 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 789W.]

was a whopping £1.5 billion.

It is important to underline that these pension arrangements have withstood no less than three major legal challenges in the past nine years. The three judicial reviews found the pension arrangements for Gurkhas to be fair and reasonable.

There has been much debate and controversy over the decision to build the changes around the date of 1 July 1997. However, given that was the date the UK became the home base for the Gurkhas, together with changes to immigration rules, which were updated to 1 July 1997, there was an increasing probability that Gurkhas would seek to retire to the UK on discharge. Up until that point, it was accepted that Gurkhas would be recruited in Nepal as Nepalese citizens, serve as Nepalese citizens and be discharged as Nepalese citizens in Nepal. However, given the change in their home base from Hong Kong to the UK, that could no longer be fairly assumed to be the case.

In his judgment of 2008, Mr Justice Ouseley said:

“A line was drawn; that was in itself reasonable, and the particular dates chosen for its drawing are reasonable too. The difference reflects not age in reality but the number of years of service based in the Far East or in the UK. If there was indirect discrimination on the grounds of age of ‘other status’, it was justified and proportionate.”

The Court of Appeal upheld the January 2010 ruling, which comprehensively rejected the argument that Gurkha pension arrangements were irrational, unfair or discriminatory. However, the legal process continues and the judgment remains the subject of an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.

I have every sympathy with the British Gurkha Welfare Society. It is a vibrant organisation and is well led by my friend, Major Tikendra Dewan, but as a former Defence Minister and having considered the matter carefully, I cannot support this campaign. The guys at BGWS are doing a great job. They are entrepreneurial and have their own energy company—I hope to sign up to their energy provision—whose new office will be officially inaugurated by the new Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd). They also have a radio station. They are a great organisation. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock, however, I do not think that there can be a retrospective change, and I salute her for having the courage and honesty to say so. The Ministry of Defence does not have £1.5 billion to pay up. No doubt the Minister will nod.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and the other Members who made powerful speeches.

I am delighted to speak in this debate. I have taken a keen interest in the campaigns that have been undertaken by the Gurkhas for a number of years. I am pleased to hear that the inquiry is making good progress under the excellent stewardship of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). I look forward to reading the full report and recommendations very soon. I congratulate my hon. Friend and the Backbench Business Committee on holding this debate, which comes one year shy of the 200th anniversary of the Gurkhas first serving in the British Army.

Any mention of the Gurkhas would not be complete without paying tribute to their service and their bravery. From Sierra Leone to Kosovo, the Gurkhas have been a fixture of the British armed forces. Their skill and bravery have been widely praised again this afternoon. The Gurkhas have served in every major conflict in which Britain has been involved since the Falklands. If any group of people are deserving of this House’s time and attention, it is these brave soldiers and veterans.

Because of their history and record, the Gurkhas command widespread public support. There is a great strength of feeling that they should receive fair treatment from the Ministry of Defence and the British Government. The treatment of the Gurkhas should not have been reliant on a campaign led by Joanna Lumley, although her dedication and tireless zeal were admirable. This issue holds the attention of the wider public. That is certainly the case in my constituency, where there is a significant Nepalese community. It is estimated that between 1,500 and 2,000 Gurkhas live in the Reading area. It is not just the Nepalese community that feels strongly about the treatment of the Gurkhas: at the height of the campaign for residency in 2009, people from all backgrounds asked me to intervene and support the campaign. Perhaps with hindsight one can say that those people did not all fully understand the consequences of the changes that were made.

The Gurkhas in my local community are supported by a number of fantastically hard-working local charities, such as the Reading Ex-British Gurkha Association and the Gurkha veteran centre. Those organisations provide much needed practical support and a sense of community and friendship for Gurkhas.

I fear that I am personally responsible for some of the work load of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock on this issue. Indeed, this morning I received a handwritten note from her:

“Do hope you can join the debate on Thursday—you got me into this!”

I am afraid I plead guilty, although it was actually my constituent Gyanraj Rai, who was on hunger strike last year in Downing street. He is a friend and someone I campaigned alongside for years, so it was very distressing to see him literally fading away, and I wanted to stop him taking his life. With the support of my hon. Friend, I managed to broker a deal that led to the Gurkha welfare all-party group inquiry, which I hope will lead to a more congenial relationship between Gurkhas and the MOD in future.

I do not regret getting my hon. Friend into this. She has done an outstanding job so far and should have all our thanks and congratulations. However, I stand by the view I gave at the time that the tactic of hunger striking was misguided, and in a democracy that cannot be the way to conduct or resolve an honest debate. The Government are put in the invidious position that if they give in there will be a procession of other hunger strikers outside Downing street who think they will be successful. Even more importantly, it put huge strain on the local community, and even more so on the family of Gyanraj Rai. I remember when it was over that Mr Rai’s wife sought me out in the crowd, embraced me, broke down in tears and thanked me for helping to end the hunger strike. I think we both knew that he would have gone through to the bitter end. With the establishment of the inquiry, I am hopeful that a real discussion can be triggered about the Gurkhas’ wider grievances and concerns, not just pensions but health care, education and other issues that have affected the community.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

Having been reminded of the events around the hunger strike, I wish to put it on the record—I would welcome my hon. Friend’s feedback on this—just how positive it has been to see all the Gurkha groups positively engage with the institutions of our democracy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) said, we had upwards of 200 Gurkhas at each of the meetings. Let us go ahead in the spirit of that mature dialogue.

[Mr Wilson]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. From this point onwards it is important to keep that type of engagement going, and I hope to say a little more about that.

We are talking not just about pensions but about wider issues of health care, education and so on. I worry that in the past Governments did not truly listen to the Gurkha community, but as a consequence of my hon. Friend’s inquiry that cannot continue to be the case. I wish to draw the House’s attention to two parts of the evidence given to the inquiry that I feel are particularly noteworthy, and I hope Ministers will take time to respond to them comprehensively.

The first is the evidence given by my friend and constituent Gyanraj Rai. His description of poverty in Nepal was moving and should throw into sharp focus the importance of the subject under discussion. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) said, there is perhaps a bigger role for the Department for International Development in Nepal, with the UK giving more assistance to health services and education to veterans. Education and trade are ways we can build a better future for Nepal, but it will take time and a lot of effort. I hope we can reflect some of that in the report.

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[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I would like to record my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee for its excellent work in facilitating debates such as this one today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) on securing the debate on Gurkha pensions and terms of employment. The topic has been discussed at length here before but, as I would have expected, she gave an extremely thoughtful and well balanced speech. We have heard knowledgeable and passionate speeches from other Members, highlighting very specific concerns, including the issue of dismissals and Hawaii. I shall not get involved in those; I am sure the Minister will consider all those detailed and specific points.

I thank the hon. Member for Thurrock for the hard work that she and her colleagues do in the all-party group. Many people and organisations have given up their time—we have heard about the huge number of attendees—in connection with it. Having walked down the Committee corridor on a number of occasions when events were taking place, I know that the hon. Lady has had an interesting and, I suspect, at times quite difficult-to-manage task. She deserves the plaudits she was given, particularly from the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth); they were entirely justified.

Members will understand why so many colleagues have been absent from today’s debate, but the defence of the United Kingdom and the Union is a paramount concern. Scotland plays an important role in the overall defence of our realm. A yes vote, which would leave the Scots unable to respond to incidents, without intelligence cover and losing jobs is not, I think, something that any Member in the Chamber would want to see, so I am grateful to the hon. Member for Aldershot for his comments. As he said, many Members whose constituencies contain significant Gurkha and Nepalese communities have gone to fight for the Union today.

The hon. Member for Thurrock set out some of the initial findings, and highlighted some of the key issues that had been raised with the all-party group. I am pleased that she sought to obtain this debate in order to listen to the views of Members, and—here I return to the fact that so many Members have not been able to participate in it because of their commitments elsewhere—I hope that she will pursue the issue. I hope that she will give all Members a copy of the report of the debate, and seek their views further to ensure that she has all bases covered. I am sure that others will want to read what has been said here today.

Members in all parts of the House recognise the enormous contribution made by the Gurkha soldiers to Britain. The Gurkhas are held in much public affection and esteem by the British public, and rightly so. They have represented and protected our nation gallantly for well over 100 years—indeed, as we heard from the hon. Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), for approaching 200 years. They fought alongside British troops before and during the first and second world wars, and continue that tradition in present-day operations. I was interested to hear what was said by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) about the Mandalay company’s involvement in training in his constituency. That, I think, illustrates just how important the Gurkhas are currently to the British armed services.

The last Government, appreciating the contribution and service of the Gurkhas, made a commitment to honour the Gurkha regiments, first by eliminating differences between their terms and conditions of service and those of their British counterparts, and later by delivering the first ever rights of settlement for Gurkhas, their spouses and their dependent children. We are proud of the work that we did in government in enhancing the lives of Gurkha soldiers and their families. I understand, however, that although there have been significant developments in recent years in relation to the pay and conditions of Gurkha soldiers and the extension of their right to settle in the UK, some outstanding grievances remain. We heard about a number of them during the debate, and of course we have also heard from Gurkhas and organisations that represent them, such as the Gurkha Welfare Trust.

Chief among those grievances is the issue relating to Gurkha pension arrangements for those who served prior to 1997. The last Government introduced a policy under which all who served after 1997 were able to transfer into the armed forces pension scheme and enjoy the same terms and conditions as their British equivalents. Of course, before 1997, Gurkha regiments were focused in the far east. Recruits came from Nepal, pay and other conditions reflected the terms available in the Indian army and it was assumed that Gurkhas would retire not in the UK, but in their home country of Nepal.

Following the transfer of the Brigade of Gurkhas to the United Kingdom in 1997, it seemed only right for the Gurkhas’ terms and conditions to be brought in line with those of British soldiers. As increasing numbers of Gurkhas were based here and began to put down roots in the UK, it became necessary to give them the right to settle with their families, a right that the last Government delivered. As for those who had served before 1997, and who were not part of the cohort of soldiers who moved with the base to the UK, it was still the expectation that they would settle in Nepal. They remained under the Gurkha pension scheme, which allows them to collect a pension after 15 years of service—far less than for a British soldier—and which provides them with an amount that can secure a good standard of living in Nepal.

I heard what the hon. Member for Thurrock said about the way in which that income is now spent, and what other Members said about the pressures on those living in Nepal. I shall be interested to read the evidence from the all-party review, particularly that relating to medical services. I am sure that the Minister will also be interested to read it when it is made public.

During a debate on this topic in 2009, my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) pointed out that the early payment of pensions for Gurkhas, after 15 years of service, actually means that most Gurkhas receive a significant pension before equivalent soldiers receive anything at all. A Gurkha soldier enrolled in the Gurkha pension scheme who enlisted at the age of 18 would have been able to retire at 33 and begin to collect his pension then. That has raised a number of issues; as I have said, I shall be interested to see the report. Members have posed further questions to the Minister today, including questions about the use of LIBOR funding and various other pots of money, and I am sure that she will give that some thought. I listened with interest, and I shall listen with great interest to the Minister’s response, although I suspect that she, like Opposition Members, will want to see the detail and consider it, because the devil is always in the detail when looking at such complex issues.

In contrast, those under the armed forces pension scheme 1975 cannot collect a pension until they are 60. By the time they reach 60 it is correct to say that the Gurkhas will receive lower monthly payments than their British counterparts, but they will have already benefited from 27 years of annual payments by that time, whereas the British soldier will have received none.

We should also remember, of course, that the Gurkha pension scheme cannot be separated from other pension schemes, including the current and previous schemes for our armed forces. It has been the policy of Governments across time that the terms and conditions of pension arrangements cannot be changed retrospectively after people leave public service. I know that a number of organisations are still seeking to make changes to the pension arrangements for those who served prior to 1997, and as Members have pointed out, there has been a series of legal challenges, to the High Court and Court of Appeal. The latter found, in relation to the pre-1997 pension arrangement, that the previous Government had acted fairly, especially given that the soldiers’ entire service was completed before the base was moved from Hong Kong, and at a time when the assumption and, importantly, the reality was retirement to a life in Nepal. We maintain that the policy introduced by the last Labour Government was reasonable, rational and lawful.

I should like to touch briefly on the emotional and complex issue of the changes sought to rules in relation to adult children. With regard to changes in the rules to allow adult children to settle in the UK, we must be clear that the UK Government’s policy has to be consistent and fair. What has been sought would not be in line with policy offered to other former servicemen from abroad and with wider UK immigration policy. This is a highly emotive area, but the Home Office has very clear rules about this, and those rules need to be acknowledged.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right that we must ensure that our application of our immigration laws is consistent. A number of Gurkhas are applying to get their families over on the basis of a right to family life, but ultimately anyone can apply under other visas—student visas or work visas—and does the hon. Lady agree that their adult families might use those routes, rather than the right to family life or any right that might arise from their veterans’ service?

[Alison Seabeck]

The hon. Lady makes an interesting point, although it would probably be better answered by a Home Office expert than me. This is complex, however. I have in my constituency a large number of Fijians who are based in Plymouth and in the Navy, and have a long-standing commitment. They could possibly equally argue that things need to be altered because of their degree and level of service. The rules must be clear, consistent and fair. If the hon. Lady’s report can give an indication that that would be the case, I am sure the Home Secretary would be interested to read it—and I, too, would be interested to read it—but at the moment, as the rules stand, there can be no specific exceptions.

This is not a day for tub-thumping party politics, but I make one small observation: the Gurkhas are being disproportionately affected by the Government’s handling of their proposed reform to the armed forces and the rationale behind the removal of 350 Gurkhas from service still needs some explanation—but I will go no further on that point in terms of the cuts to the regiments and the timing.

The welfare and well-being of our serving personnel and our veterans is a priority for this party, as I am sure it is for the Government parties. That is one reason why we pushed so hard to enshrine the principles of the armed forces covenant in law. It is also why we undertook to introduce equal pay and pension rights for Gurkhas and to provide them with the option to settle in the United Kingdom if they wished to.

We have heard from many hon. Members. The hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) highlighted his constituency links to the Nepalese community in a very positive way. The hon. Member for Aldershot spoke of the pressures of resettlement on local councils and health services. The hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) spoke of her constituent’s commitment to his community in being elected as a local councillor. None of us would want to suggest that the Gurkhas and other members of the Nepalese community are anything other than a positive benefit to the communities in which they settle, as long as the right support is in place for them. The Gurkhas play a vital role in our armed forces, and I hope that we can look forward to many more years of their dedicated, brave, committed and highly skilled service.

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[Jackie Doyle-Price]

I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate. There is an immense amount of unanimity on the desire to do right by the Gurkhas but to do so within the rule of law. That is why it is so important that we do not make more anomalies as we address these problems.

We need to address the outcomes of poverty that we have talked about and we will do that by showing imagination and being practical. I welcome the Minister’s attitude. The relationship between Gurkha veterans and the Ministry of Defence in previous years has not been characterised by mature dialogue and I think there is fault on both sides for that. I will put myself in the position of being the glue that brings the Gurkhas to the negotiating table if the Minister promises to keep her door open, and she has given us that indication.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered Gurkha pensions and terms of employment.