Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(5)

Robin Walker Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Robin Walker)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the Report pursuant to section 3(5) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, which was laid before this House on Monday 14 October.

On 9 October, the Secretary of State published a report updating information on progress on Executive formation, transparency of political donations, higher education and a Derry university, presumption of non-prosecution, troubles prosecution guidance, and the abortion law review. It is the second report published on those issues in line with our obligations under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.

I believe that the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd), has raised some concerns with the Leader of the House about the availability of the report. I apologise for any confusion, but I can confirm that it was available online on gov.uk on 9 October. Copies of the report were also available from the Vote Office on 14 October, the first day on which the House sat following its publication.

Let me first take this opportunity to welcome the inclusion of the Bill on historical institutional abuse in the Queen’s Speech. I was personally very pleased to note its inclusion, having heard the poignant testimonies of victims and survivors shared by Members on both sides of the House. I look forward to working with colleagues across the House to ensure that the Bill is passed, so that we can begin to see redress for the victims of this awful legacy.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Minister will be aware that victims of historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland were very disappointed on Monday when the Bill to provide them with compensation did not feature in the Queen’s Speech itself, but was tucked away on page 113 of the background briefing notes. However, in fairness to the Minister, victims’ spirits will be lifted today by the First Reading of that essential Bill in the House of Lords. For the benefit of the victims, will the Minister outline the timetable for the completion of the legislation in the House of Lords and in this place?

[Mr Walker]

I think we can all welcome the fact that the Bill is being introduced and is moving forward. I am afraid that I do not have the full details of the timetable, but I will seek to consult colleagues in the Lords and, perhaps, write to the hon. Lady. I join her in paying tribute to the victims groups, about whom we have heard a great deal from Members throughout the House, and who have waited so patiently for redress and worked so constructively with those involved in the Hart inquiry, and with officials and politicians.

Let me now turn to the talks. The House should be in no doubt of the strength of our resolve to get Stormont back up and running. In the weeks since the first report was published, the Secretary of State has intensified his work with the Northern Ireland parties—particularly the two largest parties—to seek solutions to the remaining issues, which include rights, language and identity. He has continued to work closely with the Tánaiste, in accordance with the three-stranded approach, and the British and Irish Governments share the view that there remains an opportunity in the coming days to reach an accommodation. Indeed, the Secretary of State is not here in person to open the debate because he has decided to stay on in Northern Ireland tonight to continue to engage with the parties this evening.

The people of Northern Ireland have gone for more than 1,000 days without an Executive and Assembly, and I, along with colleagues throughout the House, do not want that stagnation to continue. Northern Ireland needs effective decision making, and its people deserve progress on key issues, including many that have been raised in the published reports.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

The last time there were official cross-party talks was in July. We are now literally five days away from the Bill becoming an Act, and the provisions on abortion and same-sex marriage being extended as equal rights to Northern Ireland. What could it possibly be in the next couple of days that has suddenly renewed the Government’s vigour and their desire to reopen the talks, and to offer the idea that the abortion law for the people in Northern Ireland could be suspended when there is a Brexit deal to be done? Will the Minister update us on what has happened to change things now, of all times?

[Mr Walker]

I do not accept that characterisation. The Government have always been clear that we want to see devolved Government restored and that this deadline set out in the Act of the 21st would be when legislation would have to be brought forward if the Executive were not in place. Of course it is right that we are engaging with the parties—as I suspect any Government of any colour would be doing—to try to restore the Executive and Assembly, and we should continue to do that right up to the deadline.

As the hon. Lady notes, the current period for Executive formation expires on Monday, 21 October, and in the event that the institutions have not been restored, we will be required to extend the Act by statutory instrument. On this, I want to be absolutely clear with the political parties in Northern Ireland: this would not be a good outcome. Northern Ireland needs political decision making. The Assembly has had over two and a half years to reach a compromise and get Stormont back up and running, and the people of Northern Ireland are sick and tired of continued delay.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I understand why the Secretary of State is not with us tonight, but can the Minister confirm that there is no part of this country of ours that will be more affected by either a deal on Brexit or, worse, no deal on Brexit? The Secretary of State committed to come to the House and give a clear indication of what powers he would need to take in the event of any outcome of Brexit. We have not yet seen this before the House. Can the Minister guarantee that at a very early stage we will see what legislation is necessary to ensure that we have an orderly exit with a deal and, even more importantly, without a deal?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Walker]

It is absolutely clear, and my Secretary of State has been clear, that in the event of no deal there would need to be further powers for Ministers to take action, but of course the hon. Gentleman will agree that we do not want to be in that situation. We want to have a deal, and I think we are all hopeful that in the coming days we might be able to have moved forward in debating that.

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

The Minister will be aware of Baroness O’Loan’s call to re-engage with the Assembly and recall the Assembly, which my party fully supports, but will he accept and acknowledge tonight that there is one party that is holding back the formation of the Assembly again: Sinn Féin?

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Gentleman makes his point clearly. It is not for me to assign blame between parties; it is for me to call on all parties to ensure that not only an Assembly but a power-sharing Executive can be restored and say that agreement needs to be reached to achieve that.

As colleagues across the House are also aware, should no Executive be formed before the 21 October deadline set out in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, this Government are under a statutory duty to change the law in Northern Ireland on access to abortion services, to introduce same-sex marriage and opposite-sex civil partnerships, and to introduce a new victims payments scheme. While every effort is being made to restore an Executive, I must also take appropriate steps to ensure that the Government are able to meet our obligations should an Executive not be formed within the statutory deadline. That is why we launched an awareness campaign last week to ensure that people know how the potential changes to the law may affect them; further information will continue to be provided over the coming weeks if the duties come into effect.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (LD)]

rose—

[Mr Walker]

I am going to go into more detail on abortion but am happy to give way to the hon. Lady.

[Dr Wollaston]

As the Minister knows, Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom where women do not have access to safe abortion in the place where they live, and they are really looking forward to a change in the law. The Government have set out that they are talking to Church groups; can the Minister set out which women’s organisations the Government have been talking to in advance of this very important and much longed-for change in the law?

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. I can assure her that we have been engaging with a range of organisations, including human rights organisations, women’s organisations and campaigns—[Interruption.] I would perhaps have to write to her with more detail.

Turning to the issue of abortion, one has only to look at the passionate and sincere demonstrations in recent weeks on both sides of this issue to appreciate that it remains a highly sensitive matter in Northern Ireland. I understand that there are many people in Northern Ireland who may, as the hon. Lady says, welcome the change. There are also many who would not. I would prefer, as would the Government, that the Northern Ireland Assembly was considering reforms of Northern Ireland’s abortion law. This is, as I have noted, a highly sensitive devolved issue and as such it would be best addressed by Northern Ireland’s locally elected and locally accountable political representatives.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

The Minister has stated that he would prefer it if the Northern Ireland Executive dealt with this issue, and he seems very much to be focusing on abortion. Does he feel the same way about the same-sex marriage provisions?

[Mr Walker]

On both issues, it is clear that we will take action should the deadline be reached, but I think that both issues would be best addressed by the Northern Ireland Assembly taking responsibility itself and delivering on the requirements. I support the right to same-sex marriage and have voted for it consistently, but I would prefer that locally elected representatives were able to deliver it in the most suitable way, no doubt arguing about it passionately and with conviction on all sides.

[Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Can the Minister indicate what he feels might happen in March 2020, should the Assembly not be up and running?

[Mr Walker]

In March 2020, should the Assembly not be up and running, the regulations that we are required to bring forward under the Act would come into effect. I will go into more detail on those requirements in a moment.

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend clarify whether it is the re-formation of the Assembly or the re-formation of the Executive that is required according to the legislation that we passed in this place?

[Mr Walker]

I think it is both. The Executive will be required for the Assembly to be in place and to work effectively.

There can be a Northern Ireland solution to this issue, but for that to materialise Northern Ireland needs the Assembly and Executive back in the coming days. In the absence of a restored Assembly and Executive, the Secretary of State has taken steps to ensure that the Government are ready to fulfil their obligations. As part of the information campaign, my Department has worked closely with the Department of Health and Social Care and published guidance for healthcare professionals to provide clarity on the new state of the law and their duties and responsibilities. The guidance sets out changes in the law in this area, should they come into effect from 22 October 2019, until a new regulatory framework is in place by the end of March.

The immediate changes are the repeal of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in Northern Ireland, meaning that no criminal charges can be brought under that Act against women and girls who have an abortion or against qualified healthcare professionals or others who provide and assist in an abortion. There will also be a moratorium on current and future criminal investigations and prosecutions. The Government then have a duty to introduce a new legal framework to come into force from 31 March 2020. It is worth noting that, during this interim period from 22 October until the new legal framework comes into place on 31 March, other relevant laws relating to the termination of pregnancy will remain in place. That includes section 25(1) of the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945, which makes it a criminal offence for anyone to assist or wilfully act

“to destroy the life of a child then capable of being born alive”,

except where the purpose is to preserve the life of the mother in good faith.

From 22 October, women resident in Northern Ireland can continue to access services in England and will now have all their travel and, where needed, accommodation costs met by the UK Government. Healthcare professionals will be able lawfully to refer patients to services in England by providing the details of the central booking service or directing them to information on gov.uk.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Does the Minister accept that offering women the opportunity to go abroad or to travel to have an abortion is not the same as enabling them to have one at home by recognising their rights under the conventions? Does he accept that simply to say, “We will not prosecute” is not enough?

[Mr Walker]

Broadly, yes—I do accept that, but I also accept that the legislation allowed for this interim period so that the right guidance could be put into place to ensure that when services become available they are operating under the right framework.

It is expected that access to abortion services will not be routinely available in Northern Ireland until the new legal framework is in place after March 2020. The guidance notes that, if healthcare professionals choose to offer an abortion service to women during the interim period within the bounds of the relevant law, they should do so in line with their professional competence and guidance from their professional body. The guidance also notes the state of play relating to conscientious objection and what to do in cases in which patients have purchased abortion pills online. We are continuing to work at pace to be ready to continue to take forward all the necessary work to be able to implement new regulations by 31 March 2020 if there is no restored Executive by the deadline. Make no mistake: we will change the law on these issues if there is no Executive within the deadline.

My Department is therefore preparing to launch a consultation on changes to the law, on access to abortion services, and on the scheme for a victims payment once the 21 October deadline passes.

[Stella Creasy]

The Act is exceptionally clear that it is solely the Executive being reformed, not the Assembly, that would be the trigger. It is also very clear that this is not dependent on the Assembly being in place post 22 October. For the avoidance of doubt, will the Minister tell the House whether the legislation that we passed in July this year will be amended by this Government if the Assembly is up and running after 22 October to give the Assembly the power to set these laws, or is he going to do what the Act, which this House passed overwhelmingly, asks him to do by March 2020?

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[Mr Walker]

I am slightly confused by the hon. Lady’s intervention, because I think I have been absolutely clear that we will do what the law requires in this respect. We are not intending to amend it. What I am saying, though, is that, if the Executive and Assembly were to be up and running before the deadline, those requirements would not apply. The requirements very specifically, as she said, require the Executive to be in place.

[Stella Creasy]

For the avoidance of doubt, the Act makes no mention of the role of the Assembly if it is reconstituted once the 21 October trigger passes. Will the Minister tell the House that he intends to amend the legislation that we passed in this House about the provision of regulation by March 2020 if the Assembly is back in place? Surely the Assembly Members need to know whether the Government are expecting them to step in if the Assembly is reconstituted, because that is not what the Act says.

[Mr Walker]

The Act is clear on the requirements on the Government to act in the event that the Executive have not been reconstituted.

[Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)]

For the purposes of clarity, it may be useful to note that termination of pregnancy and abortion is a devolved matter, so if the Assembly is restored that will rightly fall back to the Assembly. A devolved Assembly of the United Kingdom can amend or change the law regardless because these are devolved powers under the constitutional settlement of the United Kingdom. I am sure that the Minister agrees that legal clarity can be obtained on that issue if some Members remain confused or in doubt about it.

[Mr Walker]

Yes, I would agree with the hon. Lady and her intervention. I want to give other Members the chance to speak in this debate, so I will touch briefly on the other sections covered in the publication.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

Further to the previous discussion, the Minister will be aware that the UN said that the UK was effectively torturing the women of Northern Ireland by not enabling them to secure an abortion if they had a fatal foetal abnormality or were pregnant due to rape or incest. Will the Minister commit that that torture will be stopped by March 2020 at the latest?

[Mr Walker]

I have been absolutely clear that we will bring forward this legislation. Clearly, if the Executive were restored, it would be for them to take action on this matter, but we are talking about a matter of days. We are taking forward the necessary steps to ensure that we can put the regulations into place, as the hon. Lady says, by March 2020.

[Mrs Miller]

Will my hon. Friend give way one more time?

[Mr Walker]

I have taken many interventions on this issue, so if my right hon. Friend will forgive me, I will try to make some progress.

Alongside substantive updates on Executive formation in the abortion law review, reports were published on transparency of political donations, higher education and a Derry/Londonderry university, presumption of non-prosecution, and troubles prosecution guidance. The section of the report on transparency of political donations states:

“The regime in place for political donations and loans is specific to Northern Ireland and reflects circumstances that are unique to Northern Ireland parties and their donors. The current law maintains anonymity concerning most donations and loans made before 2017.

The legislative framework provides that greater transparency may be introduced in respect of donations or loans made after 1 January 2014, however, in considering the merits of doing so the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would wish to be satisfied that it creates no risk of intimidation.

The current legislative arrangements are based on broad consensus among the Northern Ireland parties and moves towards changing the law on donations before July 2017 will require a similar level of Northern Ireland consensus. There is a broader long-standing convention that changes to legislation directly affecting political parties are not made without wider discussion and consultation between parties and the Government.”

Higher education and a Derry university are a devolved matter, which once again underscores the importance of getting Stormont back up and running. The decision on the business case for Ulster University’s proposed Northern Ireland graduate-entry medical school for the Magee campus is, therefore, a matter for Northern Ireland Ministers in a restored Northern Ireland Executive. The Government remain open to considering the eligibility of contributing inclusive future funding towards the capital costs of the project. However, that, too, will be dependent on a restoration of the Executive.

On the presumption of non-prosecution, the report published on 4 September set out the current position on the investigation of troubles-related deaths and the steps being taken to develop an improved system for dealing with the legacy of the troubles. Since then there have been no significant updates on which to report.

Again, on troubles prosecution guidance, the report of 4 September set out the current position with regard to the relevant elements of policing and the justice system in Northern Ireland and the steps the Government are taking to improve the current system for investigating the past in Northern Ireland. Since then there have been no significant updates on which to report.

I hope I have made my position clear: I want to see Stormont back up and running. The Secretary of State is doing everything in his power to achieve that objective, and I hope the parties will do the same and commit to reaching an accommodation on restoring the institutions at the earliest opportunity.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I begin by asking the Minister to respond to this debate. Many important questions have been asked and will be asked in this debate, and he was not able to respond to the questions raised in our debate on the previous report.

[Mr Robin Walker]

I was timed out by other speeches in our previous debate but, if the Chair is happy to make time, I would be happy to provide a closing statement.

[Tony Lloyd]

That is important, because the House will address some substantive issues tonight and we need answers.

The Minister rightly said it is now over 1,000 days since the Stormont Assembly and the Stormont Executive last functioned, which is outrageous. It is almost unrecognisable in terms of modern democratic governance.

If not for other factors, I would be talking tonight about the failure of the political system to reform the education of our young people in Northern Ireland. I would be talking about the failure to reform the health service, and the fact that the Bengoa report is now receding dramatically in the rear-view mirror of life. That is, quite frankly, tragic because it is letting down patients, as the health service in Northern Ireland now sees increasing waiting lists and other things that are unacceptable.

Mental health provision in Northern Ireland is grossly inadequate. If there is one statistic that ought to frighten Members on both sides of the House, it is that more people have died since the troubles through suicide than died during the troubles—that figure is dramatic but true. It is immeasurably sad, and we ought to dwell on that. It is a failure of politicians of all stripes in Northern Ireland.

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[Mr Robin Walker]

We have heard thoughtful and at times vociferous contributions from Members in all parts of the House. It is clear that, while there are very disparate views on the issue of abortion, the House wants the Northern Ireland Executive to be restored in the shortest possible order. I think everyone who has spoken today has spoken in favour of that.

Let me, however, make clear to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) that the Government have no intention of amending the legislation. She spoke about the Executive and the Assembly. She was right to say that the legislation refers to the restoration of the Executive, and the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) was also right to say that an Assembly needs to be in place for the Executive to be restored. It is clear that if that happens on 21 October, the Government’s requirement under the Act to legislate on these matters will fall away, and it will be for the Assembly and the Executive to take matters forward. If it does not happen, the Government will act as they are required to do by the legislation. I hope that that gives the hon. Lady some reassurance following the concerns that she has raised.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Walker]

I am happy to give way to the hon. Lady, but I will not be able to give way many times, as there are a number of issues that I want to address.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

Although we did not gain much insight into the speech of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), I have just read a tweet from her alleging that there is some sort of conspiracy, that the Democratic Unionist party made an agreement with the Government, and that that is why this is not going to happen. Would the Minister like to take the opportunity to make categorically clear that that is not the case, that this is a sensitive subject that we all want to get right, given the mess that we are in because regulations are having to be made and there is not enough time in which to do that, and that we should all treat this issue with the utmost seriousness and without this type of nonsense?

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady is right to say that this is a sensitive matter, and we should all seek to get it right. Let me make clear that we will take the action that is required by the law, and that means that more guidance will be published. We have already published guidance for healthcare professionals—on 7 October—to confirm the new state of the law during the interim period and their responsibilities. The guidance was published on gov.uk and circulated via the royal medical colleges. It also contains information for healthcare professionals in Northern Ireland about the funded abortion services in England that are available to women from Northern Ireland under the existing UK Government scheme. The healthcare professionals will be able to refer women to the service if the requirements of the Act come into force on 22 October.

The hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) asked about information on service provision. It is already available, and more information will be made available as we move forward with the process. The hon. Gentleman also asked an important question about the Secretary of State returning to the House. I can confirm that, as and when any extension of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act was considered or as and when any other powers were sought, the Secretary of State would need to come to the House in order to deal with that.

[Maria Caulfield]

rose—

[Mr Walker]

I will give way, but this is probably the last time that I shall do so.

[Maria Caulfield]

When the issue of historical institutional abuse was raised during debate on the Bill that became the Act, the Secretary of State promised that there would be legislation, and it was mentioned in the Queen’s Speech. Has the Minister any idea of the date when that legislation will be introduced? It will affect thousands of people in Northern Ireland.

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As we heard from the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) at the beginning of the debate, the legislation is already proceeding in the House of Lords, but I have undertaken to write giving more details about the timetable, and I am happy to repeat that undertaking.

Concerns have been raised about supposed backstreet abortions. We should be very clear that repealing criminal offences specifically relating to procuring abortion does not repeal other relevant criminal laws that exist to protect individuals. Medical procedures are carefully regulated and have to be carried out, as has been noted, on regulated premises with appropriate quality and care oversight. The guidance we published should help to support that.

The repeal of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 means that women who take pills without prescription and medical supervision will be able to seek assistance and proper aftercare treatment without fear of prosecution. It will remain an offence under medicines legislation to sell or supply abortion pills online without a prescription. It is also an offence to carry out an abortion where the child is capable of being born alive except where it is necessary to save the woman’s life.

As I said in my opening remarks, we will enhance the travel scheme to enable more women to access services free of charge in England and Wales. The point was made that this is not an ideal situation—it is not a situation that anyone wants to persist—and that is why, in answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Belfast East, services will be available under the framework after March 2020, as required by the law. That is an issue we intend to address. I would say, however, that we believe that the net effect will be to reduce the number of women who might otherwise seek a termination without adequate and appropriate medical assistance; I think Members across the House will welcome that.

[Gavin Robinson]

rose—

[Mr Walker]

I will not be able to answer all the hon. Gentleman’s questions, but I undertake to write to him after this debate and to try to come back with more details on that front.

The hon. Gentleman also raised the important issue of veterans, and I am certainly happy to respond on that. We are clear that the current system for dealing with the past is not working well for anyone, and we want to see more progress on this issue. The Government remain fully committed to finding a solution for dealing with the legacy of the troubles that works for everyone, and that means a solution that meets the needs of victims and survivors, ensures that members of the armed forces and the police are treated fairly, and complies with the UK’s domestic and international legal obligations.

The Prime Minister has said he wants absolutely to protect the armed forces covenant and protect our veterans, and I absolutely support him in that, and my Secretary of State has undertaken to work with the new Office for Veterans’ Affairs to ensure that we can do that in the appropriate way.

As the report notes on the sensitive issue of abortion, if the duty comes into effect on 22 October, relevant criminal law will be repealed and a criminal moratorium will come into effect, but services are unlikely to be widely available given the policy and delivery considerations required in the following months to implement the new framework, and we are going to work at pace to ensure that the appropriate measures, including publication of further guidance and communications, are brought into effect. I absolutely commit to engaging with women’s groups in the process of the consultation period, and with the medical professionals at the forefront of this issue, making sure we get it absolutely right.

It is important that we move forward in a sensitive manner on these issues. It is clear that the time for the Executive to take this into their own hands and for the parties in Northern Ireland to shape this process is running out; only a matter of days are left for them to be able to step up and influence that process. I come back to a point that was made by the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald): greater challenges have been overcome in the past by the parties in Northern Ireland being prepared to work together. I would ask them to rise to that challenge, as the House has so clearly demanded today, and to ensure that we have an Executive in place in the shortest possible order.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the Report pursuant to section 3(5) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, which was laid before this House on Monday 14 October.