Social Mobility

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Lucy Powell]

That is another excellent point. My hon. Friend will know about that issue from her own constituency.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Lucy Powell]

Yes, but then I will have to make some progress.

[Rishi Sunak]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way, and I commend her for securing this debate on a topic I know she is passionate about, and about which she has spoken passionately in the past. She was just talking about access to higher education. Will she welcome the fact that access for working-class families is at an all-time high, with students from working-class backgrounds now 70% more likely to apply to university than 10 years ago? Indeed, that was one of the areas on which the Milburn report gave a green light when evaluating the Government’s progress.

[Lucy Powell]

I am happy to accept that point, which the report talks about more broadly, but challenges remain. There are some warning signs on the horizon and we should be careful that we do not end up taking a backward step in this important area.

The Social Mobility Commission has found that the generational divide is yawning. Over the past 20 years, poverty among pensioners has halved and their income today, on average, exceeds that of working adults. Meanwhile, young people’s earnings have fallen. That cannot continue. It is no wonder that we saw a huge upsurge of anger, activism and engagement from younger voters at the general election. The wealth and income divide has also become much wider over the past 20 years, with top pay increasing much faster than the incomes of lower earners. In 1998 the highest earners were paid 47 times that of the lowest. By 2015 the highest earners were paid 128 times more than the lowest. Gaps in wealth have also grown exponentially, with home ownership and house price inflation benefiting the lucky few who already own their home. It is not just about the economic price we pay for these failings; as a society, these divisions are causing unrest, anger and resentment. That is leading to political volatility and, arguably, the rise of populism.

Those are just some of the reasons why the social mobility agenda is so important. It needs to be not only at the heart of all Government policy, but a national mission for our country. Successive Prime Ministers—Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron and our current Prime Minister—have spoken a great deal about social mobility. Most recently, the current Prime Minister spoke about the “burning injustices” of our society. However, the Government’s approach, while making progress in some areas, has not matched the rhetoric and has been piecemeal and disconnected.

Let us look at what could be done about social mobility. There are many recommendations in the Social Mobility Commission report and from the Sutton Trust, Teach First and many others. Recommendations should not be limited to education policy—far from it. Every Budget, every Bill and every policy should be judged against whether it tackles inequalities and boosts social mobility for everybody, everywhere. There needs to be a single cross-departmental plan to deliver social mobility.

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[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

rose—

[Rishi Sunak]

rose—

[Paul Masterton]

Ladies first.

[Paul Masterton]

I would, but the Scottish Government have been in power for 10 years, and they seem only now to have decided to make education their priority. That has come a bit too late for many families and a lost generation of kids who have been in education under devolution.

[Rishi Sunak]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I welcome him to his place. I want to touch on his comments about technical and further education. I have campaigned in this House to ensure parity of esteem between those routes and higher education. He talked about filling out UCAS forms. I have talked to Ministers about the idea of having a UCAS for apprenticeships system, which Alan Milburn recommends in his report and which was included in the Government’s industrial strategy. Will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming that proposal, which could ensure parity of esteem and make it easier for young people to embrace a career outside university?

[Paul Masterton]

Absolutely. Just to be controversial, I commend the Scottish Government on the work they are seeking to do on apprenticeships. They have cottoned on to that major issue and are doing some good work on that front.

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[Mr Goodwill]

I disagree. As some of the primary school results that recently came out show, we are making real progress, certainly in key subjects such as maths and English. I am sure that we all welcome the tremendous impact that that will have on young people’s life chances.

[Rishi Sunak]

I could not resist intervening, as my hon. Friend mentioned North Yorkshire schools. As a North Yorkshire MP, he will be aware that the current funding formula disadvantages pupils in North Yorkshire to the tune of hundreds of pounds relative to similar pupils in other areas around the country. Will he urge the Secretary of State to continue her work to correct that unfairness in the funding formula and find a positive solution for students in his constituency, in my constituency and across the country?

[Mr Goodwill]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. When I was first elected, I visited a school in one of the most deprived areas of my constituency. The head, who had come from another part of the country, said, “If we were in the middle of Rotherham, Bradford or Hull, we would be getting about 30% more money because of the school funding formula.” People in North Yorkshire certainly look forward to that being addressed.

As well as increasing school quality, we are strengthening the teaching profession, opening up access to higher education, transforming technical education, delivering 3 million apprenticeship places and investing in careers education. Beyond that progress, the Department is delivering against its social mobility priorities in several specific ways. We are tackling geographic disadvantage by focusing efforts on supporting specific areas that face the greatest challenges and have the fewest opportunities. We are investing £72 million in 12 opportunity areas—social mobility “cold spots” where the Department is working with a range of local partners to break the link between a person’s background and their destination. Those areas face some of the most entrenched challenges, as described in the Social Mobility Commission’s index last year.

Our approach goes beyond what the Department for Education and central Government can do alone; it extends to local authorities, schools, academy sponsors, local and national businesses, local enterprise partnerships, further education colleges, universities and the voluntary sector. Through that process, we will not just build opportunity now but lay the foundations for future generations. I was in Oldham on Thursday, and I was particularly impressed by the ambition and motivation in that opportunity area. Indeed, I am no stranger to some of the challenges in such areas—one of them is in my constituency. Hon. Members will note that that opportunity area had already been designated when I took on my current role.

Tackling geographic disadvantage is important, but so is investing in the long-term capacity of the education system. We are absolutely clear that some of the biggest improvements in social mobility can be achieved by deploying high-quality teaching. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Manchester Central said in her opening remarks, we have more teachers in our schools than ever before. There are now more than 457,000 teachers in state-funded schools throughout England, which is 15,500 more than in 2010.

Oral Answers to Questions

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gibb]

Funding is increasing to £42 billion by the end of this spending review period. We are increasing the amount allocated for sparsity from £15 million under the current formula to £27 million. The hon. Gentleman talks about debt, but, since 2010, we have had to face the problem of tackling the historic budget deficit inherited from the last Labour Government because of their poor stewardship of the public finances. Tackling that debt and that deficit has enabled us to have a strong economy with growing employment and greater opportunities for young people when they leave school.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

9. What steps the Government are taking to encourage more 16 to 18-year-olds to take up apprenticeships.

[The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Robert Halfon)]

My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that, in 2015-16, 131,400 under-19 apprentices climbed up the ladder of opportunity to get the skills and jobs that they need for the future. We are investing millions in supporting providers and employers to employ apprentices. We also have the Get In Go Far campaign, which is working incredibly well, and we are investing £90 million in careers guidance, including in the Careers and Enterprise Company.

[Rishi Sunak]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that statement of progress. Does he agree that a UCAS system for apprenticeships could improve the status of apprenticeships, make it easier for businesses and students to connect with each other, and end the classroom divide between those applying to university and those applying for technical education?

[Robert Halfon]

I thank my hon. Friend for his work on the UCAS issue. He is absolutely right. We are looking very hard at this, and we announced it in our industrial strategy. We want to ensure that we give technical education students and apprentices clear information with a platform similar to UCAS. We are looking at how we can ensure that it works to help to address the skills deficit and to help the socially disadvantaged.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Thursday 17th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[John McDonnell]

I will give way in a moment. I can tell the House what happened to business investment forecasts—they were revised down again in this Parliament. None of this should be a surprise for the Chancellor, but it seems that it is. At the autumn statement, he said that he wanted a plan

“that actually produces better results than were forecast.” ”.—[Official Report, 25 November 2015; Vol. 602, c. 1385.]

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

rose—

[John McDonnell]

I will come back to the hon. Gentleman. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions said this last week about the autumn statement:

“If you can’t forecast more than two months, how in heaven’s name can you forecast the next four or five years.”

That is what we all want to know.

Oral Answers to Questions

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2016 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks) (Con)]

1. What steps he is taking to help small and medium-sized businesses become more competitive.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and President of the Board of Trade (Sajid Javid)]

Britain is one of the top 10 places in the world in which to start and run a business. We are boosting skills, boosting productivity, raising the quantity and quality of apprenticeships in England, cutting tax and regulations and building stronger trading links with emerging markets.

[Rishi Sunak]

My rural North Yorkshire constituency is home to many businesses with strong local roots but global aspirations. May I ask the Secretary of State what his Government are doing to help small and medium-sized companies become exporters?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is a distinguished entrepreneur and speaks with a great deal of experience, and I take what he says very seriously. I can reassure him that my Department is first in leading cross-Whitehall work on exports. UK Trade & Investment is one of those entities that connects UK businesses to export opportunities around the world. Indeed, the UK export hub is continuing to travel across the country, meeting first-time exporters face to face. It has already visited Yorkshire, and, indeed, it is in Yorkshire today.

Apprenticeships

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Nick Boles]

Obviously I meet English business, employers and colleges a great deal, but many of those employers are also employers elsewhere in the United Kingdom and want to be able to have integrated apprenticeship programmes, so it is extremely important—I give a commitment to the hon. Gentleman about this—that I work with the devolved Administrations to ensure that apprenticeship standards are recognised in all parts of the UK and that we learn from each other.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s clear passion for using apprenticeships to spread opportunity and to raise aspiration in our nation. Tomorrow I am attending an event hosted by the ancient company of fellmongers. Will he join me in commending the fellmongers for returning to their medieval roots and supporting the creation of dozens of local apprenticeships, thus helping Richmond to become one of the best-performing constituencies anywhere in the United Kingdom?

[Nick Boles]

One of the curious things about this job is that one discovers occupations that one has literally never heard of. I have to admit that I still do not know what a fellmonger is. I am sure that I will find out, and perhaps one day I can join an apprentice fellmonger and understand the trade that he has learned.

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[Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab)]

As part of my apprenticeship as an MP, I have just discovered that a fellmonger is a dealer in hides and skins. Is that right?

[Rishi Sunak]

indicated assent.

[Liz McInnes]

On to the serious stuff. The Minister said that deciding to take on an apprenticeship was a way of avoiding large student loans. Given that it is his Government who have imposed these large loans, would not another way of helping our young people to avoid them be for the Government to rethink replacing student maintenance grants with loans, or will he simply accuse me of shroud waving?

Oral Answers to Questions

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Nick Boles]

I certainly will, and I look forward to visiting Cornwall during national apprenticeship week to celebrate that. In my hon. Friend’s constituency there were 82.5% more apprenticeship starts in 2014-15 than in 2009-10, and I am sure he will be able to go on and double that.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

In my constituency I am working with UCAS to launch a “UCAS for apprenticeships” pilot. This new portal will make it easy for local small and medium-sized businesses to take on a school-leaver, and end the divide between those applying to university and those looking for an apprenticeship. Will my hon. Friend join me in supporting this exciting local initiative backing the aspirations of north Yorkshire’s young people?

[Nick Boles]

Many of the best policies are designed by Back-Bench Members and piloted in their constituencies, and I want to salute my hon. Friend for creating this scheme so soon after arriving in this place. We will watch it very carefully and look to see whether we can roll it out across the country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Simon Hart. Not here.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

T10. I welcome the Government’s ambition for 3 million apprenticeship starts in this Parliament—three times the number under the last Labour Administration. As the numbers rise, will the Minister ensure that those apprenticeships provide the high-quality skills that our young people deserve and our employers demand?

[Nick Boles]

Absolutely. There is no point having 3 million apprenticeships unless they are high quality and add to the skills of the people who take them up. That is why we are introducing new trailblazer standards, developed by employers: apprenticeships have to last at least a year and involve 20% formal off-the-job training. We are also introducing higher-level and degree apprenticeships.

Trade Union Bill (Third sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Doughty]

Q 261 Specifically on Cobra, in your view would it be a very small number of instances where it would ever be appropriate for that system to be brought into play?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: That is ultimately for Government to determine, but I see that there are often local disputes where Cobra would never need to get involved and manage that. The Government will make decisions as to when they need to activate that machinery.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Q 262 Thank you both for being here. I have a question for the deputy chief constable. I think you mentioned that your primary responsibilities are to keep the peace and uphold the law. Obviously there have been situations where that has not been the case on picket lines, and we heard evidence on Tuesday about that and talk of intimidation. I was looking around at how you deal with other organised protests, such as marches, and it says clearly on the Met police website:

“Organisers should try to give as much notice as possible”,

and provide the names and addresses of organisers. Given that, would it be a help or a hindrance for you to have the notice period in the Bill of two weeks and the identity of someone organising a protest? It seems pretty clear that it would be a help, rather than a hindrance, but I wanted to confirm which of those you think it would be.

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: Well, I think there are degrees of protest. If you look at protest across the country as a whole, there are some big, national-level protests, but almost on a day-to-day basis many smaller protests take place, too. We are certainly not notified of all of them, nor do I think it practical for police to be notified of them. Many protests are self-policed and are not ones that we would particularly need to get involved with.

Certainly for the bigger scale protests—the ones that are likely to involve some element of policing—some advance notice to plan around that is necessary. Very often, our intelligence structures provide that information to us anyway to enable plans to be put in place. Some of that comes through organisers notifying us, and some of it comes from information and intelligence that we receive into policing.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 263 Am I right in thinking that it is helpful, then? The Metropolitan police ask for as much information as possible.

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: It is certainly helpful when plans need to be put in place, but I would say that not all protests are of that scale and not all protests on a day-to-day basis receive attention.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 264 I have a quick follow-up for Steve. When you were describing the picket lines that you have been involved in, you were saying that people were thoroughly enjoying themselves and having a jolly. Part of why we are all here, and the Bill is here, is to tackle the issue of strikes being held on low turnouts and out-of-date ballots that then inconvenience millions of people across the country. We have been hearing from union representatives that, for the most part, they understand that strikes are a last resort and are taken very seriously. Do you also agree with that? The description that you gave just a minute ago about people having a bit of a jolly and thoroughly enjoying themselves, while inconveniencing millions of people, seemed a bit out of kilter with what we have been hearing from others.

Steve White: The context in which I answered that question was in relation to whether picket lines were threatening. I was just giving the balance that in my experience that picket line was probably not one of the threatening ones. In terms of whether a strike should be called and what the level of turnout should be, that is quite simply not a matter for the police service. That is a matter for others; our primary concern is that the peace is kept and that things happen within the law.

I just want to pick up on your previous point to Charlie in relation to notification. It would be great if the police service had more than two weeks’ notice for every single resource requirement that we ever have, but we do not. We have to have resources in place to deal with the unexpected. That includes whether or not we have been notified of something. As Charlie said, that does not necessarily mean that we will have to be used or deployed.

[The Chair]

Okay. We have two minutes and two more questions. Jo Stevens and Seema Kennedy, just a brisk question from each of you, please.

Trade Union Bill (Fourth sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Doughty]

Q 341 Thank you, Sir Alan. Professor Ewing, we were talking about the certification officer. Recalling what you were saying, essentially you are worried that a Minister—a member of the Executive—will appoint an individual who is effectively police, judge, jury and executioner with some fairly wide-ranging powers.

Professor Ewing: Let me say, I hope it was not anything I said that led to the disturbance.

My concern with the Bill is, first, these very extensive powers of investigation, which could eventually lead to someone to being imprisoned for non-compliance. What would worry me is what would trigger that process. What triggers the process is the suggestion that the certification officer can take these steps where he thinks there is good reason to do so. Given the nature of the power that has been given to the certification officer, you would be looking for much a higher threshold before powers of that kind could be triggered.

That is the power of investigation, but there is also the power of adjudication, which has been greatly expanded under, I think, what is now schedule 2. The issue is that the certification officer can initiate a complaint, so in a sense he is the complainant. The certification officer as a complainant will bring his or her own witnesses, cross-examine his or her own witnesses and then make a decision in his or her own cause. They will then have a new power to impose a financial penalty.

That seems to me to be a violation of fundamental principles of natural justice, which apply in this case and I refer to in my written submission: fundamental principles of justice rehearsed by Lord Chief Justices as far back as the 1920s. It would certainly contravene the well-established principle of English and Scots law that no one should be a judge in his or her own cause. I think that provision needs to be looked at very carefully again.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Q 342 Thank you, Professor, for being here. I want to ask you about thresholds and that part of the Bill. I am obviously not a legal expert on rights, but I think what the threshold provision is trying to do is balance the right to strike—which certainly no one is saying should not exist—with the right of people to go about their ordinary business, send their kids to school, use the trains and tubes, gain access to hospitals and so on. That balancing seems moderate and reasonable. Do you think any weight should be given to the rights of people to go about their ordinary business? Do you agree with the general secretary of the Unite union who, you may have read, has said in principle that he can agree with the idea of thresholds and time-limiting ballots?

Professor Ewing: I do not want to intrude into these very sensitive debates. Whether or not it is moderate or reasonable, I would ask whether it is lawful. That would take me back to the ILO conventions that I referred to earlier—in particular, ILO convention 87—and there to the jurisprudence of the supervisory bodies that emphasise two points.

One is that we should be counting the votes of only those people who vote in strike ballots. If you do not vote, in a sense, you do not count for these purposes. Secondly, when we get to questions of thresholds, the ILO supervisory bodies have said, in a long line and expanding group of cases, that any threshold has to be reasonable. On the question of what is reasonable, what they have said so far is that a threshold of 50% of those eligible to vote is not reasonable. The Bill pitches that at a bit less—at 40%—and the question is, is 40% reasonable?

In determining whether 40% is reasonable or not, I think you have got to take into account the voting methods. The problem with the 40% threshold in the context of the legal framework within which it will be dropped is that it will be dropped into a very rigid system of voting. And if you are going to make an argument for thresholds, I think you have got to be a bit more relaxed about the way in which people go about voting. To have mandatory postal balloting is, I think, probably excessive, too rigid and does not apply elsewhere.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 343 Thank you for that. Just so that we are clear, I understand your concerns about the details on how voting works, but in principle you think that the idea of a threshold is fine.

Professor Ewing: No, no, you are putting words into my mouth. My starting point would be the principle of freedom of association. My starting point as a result is that it must be ultimately for trade unions to decide their own internal methods of governance and their own relationships with their members.

If we are going to intrude into that principle of freedom of association that we have subscribed to as a nation, there has to be some compelling reason to do so. That compelling reason has to be compatible with our international legal obligations, and I think there are serious doubts about whether the threshold we are about to introduce will be compatible with the requirements of ILO convention 87.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 344 In your opinion, but the ILO convention does accept the principle of a threshold.

Professor Ewing: Well, the ILO supervisory bodies have said that if you introduce a threshold, it has to be reasonable. What I am saying to you is that a 40% threshold in my view is too high in the context of the very rigid voting system we have in this country.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 345 I understand, but there is no opposition to the threshold in principle under the convention.

Professor Ewing: Well, the ILO bodies are very unclear. In a sense, they say, “If you have a threshold, it’s got to be reasonable,” but they also say, “You should only be counting people who vote.”

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

Q 346 Professor Ewing, in relation to the devolved Administrations, what impact will the Bill have on both their policies and criminal or civil law?

Professor Ewing: This is going to be a really difficult question in the months ahead. The issue here particularly for Scotland is the proposals on the check-off and the powers in relation to facility time—the duty on public bodies to publish facility time arrangements. I think there are two problems here. One is a question of whether these provisions fall within the reserved powers of the Westminster Parliament.

I am sure that a lot of people are taking advice—legal or otherwise—about this at the moment, but I am not sure if the check-off provisions would satisfy the requirement that they fall within the reserved powers of the Westminster legislature and there are lots of reasons why that might be the case. I would hope that the Scottish Parliament will have an opportunity to think about and comment on this question. But, at the end of the day, this is a sovereign legislature and you can push through whatever legislation you think appropriate, whether or not it is incompatible with the devolution settlement. I have doubts about whether all of this package will be compatible with the devolution settlement, but I have no doubt that you have the right to push it through, despite the incompatibility.

The problem that I think will come will not necessarily be a legal one. The problem will be a very severe political problem in the future. The problem will be if a Scottish public body decides, “We are not going to comply with this ban on the check-off,” or “We are not going to publish the facility time arrangements that we give to trade union representatives.” What will happen at that point? We are looking at the question of who will enforce those obligations against Scottish public bodies. Are we really saying that the Secretary of State for Scotland will bring a case against a major Scottish public authority to enforce those obligations? The Government are walking, almost blindfolded, into a major constitutional crisis around the Bill. That constitutional crisis could be as explosive for this Government as the poll tax was for the Thatcher Government in the late 1980s and early 1990s. This is a big, big problem, and I am not sure that people have really thought through the consequences.

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[The Chair]

Two Members want to ask questions. I am going to take them both together. If for any reason you wish to come back in the short period we have got left, I will allow that.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 373 I have a quick question for Mr Serwotka. I understood your points about online balloting. Just so I understand, do you support the principle of a threshold for strike action, so that when there is disruption to the public services that people depend on, they know it has been backed by a reasonable number of members involved?

Mark Serwotka: No, I do not. Unless the Government were to say that thresholds should apply to all referendums and all other comparable ballots, it singles out the trade unions. It means that people who do not vote are counted as no votes, which to my mind is completely unacceptable.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

This is a question for Dr Roach. The NASUWT organises across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Could you let Members know whether there is any significant difference in levels of industrial action in the four areas, where the governance is different?

Dr Roach: Yes, we do indeed organise right across the United Kingdom. There are very real differences in the industrial relations contexts in each of those jurisdictions. Our ability to engage in genuine dialogue with the Administrations in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales is, frankly, far superior to our ability to engage in genuine dialogue, with the view to resolving teachers’ very real concerns about their pay, pensions, working conditions and job security, in England. There are acute differences, but I would come back to the issue of the importance of the trade unions’ ability to represent the interests of their members. They ensure that their members’ working conditions are adequately protected through the use not only of strike action but of other means, including the intelligent use of action short of strike action. That has been an important mainstay of our strategy for protecting the interests of our members right across the UK.

Trade Union Bill (First sitting)

Rishi Sunak Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Ian Mearns]

Q 14 In the aftermath of this session, will you write to us to present us with the evidence you have to back up those statements?

Dr Adam Marshall: I would be very happy to look at what evidence is available. As I say, the statistics collected by National Statistics are not acceptable.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)]

Q 15 Thank you all very much for being here. I am sure that everyone here agrees that the intimidation of non-striking workers and illegal activity on picket lines is wrong and that it is concerning to read reports of that. What are your experiences of picketing from an employer perspective? What are your thoughts on the current status of the code of practice and the provisions in the Bill to put that on a statutory footing? Do you think it does enough to reduce the concerns that some of us might have about behaviour in this area?

John Cridland: The principal concern of business is where picketing action does not fit in with the code. Generally, I think the code works well. The Bill contains a sensible provision to bring legal recognition to the part of the code that it covers, and I think the major provision in the Bill that would impact on picketing is the requirement to have an official who is clearly responsible, and who the employer knows to be responsible, for the actions of the picket line, which is something that employers welcome. I think that is a relatively moderate change to the existing legislation. It builds on a code that has served us well.

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[The Chair]

I still have seven people who want to ask questions, so from now on we will have one question and one brisk answer, if you do not mind.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 59 Thank you, Sir Edward. I very much echo the comments in your submission that responsible trade unions are a force for good in the workplace and the community, so thank you for that.

I just want to return to the topic of the political levy. I was glad to hear that both of you, on your membership form, specifically provide members with the information to opt out. It turns out that that is not as common as you would think and many other unions do not do that. Given what you have said about the importance of transparency and the reason for you to have put that on the form, do you think that it is appropriate that other unions do not include that information?

John Hannett: Well, you are going to be speaking to other unions and they will give you their answer, but for me, it is right to do it, because I think that if I am going to recruit somebody into the union, I have a responsibility to tell them what they get for their money; I have a responsibility to tell them where their money is allocated. Our form is very clear, and we can certainly give you copies of the form. It is explicit that if you wish to drop out, you can. I think that is honest and the right thing to do. I think that is honest and the right thing to do.

[Jessica Morden]

Q 60 Can I ask Mr Hannett a specific question? You have run campaigns such as “Freedom From Fear”, which is about highlighting abuse against workers in retail and other such sectors. Can you tell the Committee how the measures in clause 11 might affect your ability to run such non-political campaigns?

John Hannett: I am sure that the Committee is aware that there are two separate funds. One is the political fund, which allows us to do political campaigns, so where there is a political link clearly we identify the campaigns as such. For instance, that one is linked politically; it is also linked industrially. On one level we engage with employers about providing good, safe environments for people to work in, but there is also a political impact when we want to campaign for new legislation to protect shop workers. Therefore, we need the resources to do that. We need the right balance, and the political levy and the combination of general and political funds enable us to do that. Without that kind of resource what you are doing is effectively making it harder for unions such as mine to campaign on such issues.

What is really important for me in the question though is the transparency. In a sense, when we go for that 10-year ballot we make it absolutely clear what we spend the money on and we also, of course, let the certification officer see clearly where we spend it. I suppose that unions such as mine and Roy’s are confused about why we are in this situation when we have had a highly successful model.

Roy Rickhuss: We also ran a fairly successful campaign around betting shops and against violence towards workers and staff in those shops, and I am pleased to say that it had all-party support. It was a successful campaign. It is questionable, and I do not know the answer at this stage, whether we would have been able to run those campaigns if they had been deemed to be political and the money had needed to come out of a political fund.

We also ran a fairly successful campaign on pensions when the last Labour Government was in power. We had a company in Cardiff that went into receivership—administration—and our members lost their pensions. We ended up taking the Labour Government to the European courts to establish the financial assistance scheme. Again, would we have been able to do that had we not had a political fund? That was about holding the Government to account in terms of protecting our members and their pensions, and we did it—and always will do it—irrespective of the colour of the Government. Whether it be Labour or Conservative, we will use our funds to protect our members’ best interests and that is what it is about for us.

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[The Chair]

We do not want any anti-Bulgaria comments.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 82 Thank you both for giving up your time today. I want to turn to the clauses about the transparency of political donations. Stephen, I noticed that in your submission you made the point that you do not think any other bodies are subject to similar provisions. I am not a lawyer, so perhaps you can help me, because my understanding from my business life is that the Companies Act 2006 requires the annual disclosure of political donations by companies and, further than that, requires active shareholder consent and a resolution to be passed, rather than an opt-out system, which is obviously a higher threshold than what we have today. I think you used the language “oppressive”. Would you consider the system of corporate donations we have today to be oppressive?

Stephen Cavalier: I would like to see a lot more transparency around corporate donations—things such as the Midlands Industrial Council, which is the major contributor to one of the political parties—and funds that are channelled through intermediaries into political parties. I would like to see shareholders having a real say in whether there are political donations. We have heard the point about the wider political implications of the political fund rules on broader campaigning. There is already complete transparency of the donations that are being made.

It is extraordinary to suggest that every trade union whose total donations exceed £2,000 per annum has to give details of every single individual donation, what it is used for and to which recipient on an annual return each year. That is an extraordinary intrusion of privacy on the individuals who make those donations. I do not see any equivalent provisions in relation to companies. I defer to you if there are such provisions.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 83 The difference would be that a company cannot just take money from shareholders, give it to political parties and ask shareholders to opt out; they have to acquire active shareholder consent. Unions today do not have to do that. Do you think that balance is right?

Stephen Cavalier: Well, that is not a correct characterisation of the situation. At the moment, unions have to ballot every 10 years for a political fund. You have heard from Mr Hannett already; 93% of USDAW members voted in favour. That is quite a common percentage among trade unions. Every single union must have a political fund ballot every 10 years. Every single member is legally required to have a notice when they join that gives them the opportunity to opt out of the political fund if they want to. Those provisions already exist.

The measure suggests that that should be changed, by the way, on the basis that within three months of the Bill becoming law, every single trade union member who pays the political fund will have to write in by post or by hand to opt in, with no opportunity to do so electronically. It completely fails to take into account that, as matters stand, unions are required by law to have a political fund rule adopted under their own constitutional provisions, which is approved by the certification officer. If you change the law in this way, every single union will need to change their rules, have those rules approved by the certification officer and get their members to sign up, which they simply cannot do within three months. To my mind, it is another example of a deliberate attempt to draft the legislation in such a way as it cannot be complied with by trade unions.

[Rishi Sunak]

Q 84 This is the basic issue of fairness—of people’s contributions being taken without their active consent at the time of membership. We heard in earlier evidence that some unions support that but it is very much not the widespread practice among all unions to provide that information to their members. If you support transparency, it is clear today that that transparency does not exist across the entire board.

Stephen Cavalier: It is a legal requirement to tell members that they have the right to opt out of the political fund. If they wish to, they do so.

[Chris Stephens]

Q 85 I have several questions. First, do you agree that there is a danger in introducing thresholds—the impact that it will have on some gender equality issues, for example? Shift changes impact workers trying to pursue equal pay issues and the like. Secondly, is there a new danger of public bodies having to reissue new, individual contracts on the basis of opportunities to check-off and those sorts of issues? Do you see any impact on the devolved Administrations given that your organisation has offices across the UK?

Stephen Cavalier: First, on the equality point, the TUC has already submitted evidence. There is a disproportionate impact of thresholds on women workers; it is absolutely clear that there is a discriminatory impact. On the question of check-off and facility time, we are also a large employer. We have check-off and facility time and we are pleased to do so. It is something that we have agreed with our workforce and it works very well for us. I very much endorse the comments made in a 2012 paper by called “Stop the Union-Bashing” by Robert Halfon MP, who says that Whitehall should not dictate to employers and that it should be a matter for employers to agree facility time. I commend that paper to the Committee. It is certainly right that employers should agree facility time and check-off. It is a matter for them.

There are serious issues here associated with the devolved Administrations. As I understand it, they have the right to determine these arrangements within their own spheres. This does cut across that, and it does so in a very negative way. It is very concerning that the impact assessment itself—in fact, I think the European convention assessment that the Government have produced says specifically that this removal of existing contractual arrangements and collective agreements may have retrospective effect. That is a serious potential breach of article 1, protocol 1 of the European convention.