EU Membership: Economic Benefits

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Robert Neill]

I would not like to speculate as to the motives of those who, sometimes from genuine belief, but maybe sometimes from cynicism, want this country to leave the EU. The hon. Gentleman is right, however, that the issue was debated then. He and I can remember it—we both voted in that referendum, I suspect. Of course the EU needs reform, as everybody has said, but any businessperson will tell us, “You don’t walk away from a major market that you’re in just because it isn’t perfect; you stay in there, you negotiate your trade and you make the market work better for you.” That is basic common sense, and frankly I am amazed and mystified that some people who really ought to know better cannot get that.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Robert Neill]

I have been generous in giving way so far and I am conscious that others want to speak. I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me, because I know he will speak later.

Given the position that we have of that double success for the City of London, it would be a tragedy—a criminal thing, virtually—for this country to turn away. The financial services industry, as well as being a key UK asset and part of our national strategic interest, is not just about people in the City of London and those working in banks, insurance and offices. A successful financial services sector affects every family in this country. It affects every pension fund. It affects the pensions of millions of people, whatever their income situation or previous position in life. To put that at risk is not to damage just that industry, but to damage the whole population of this country. It damages the revenue stream, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) just said, that underpins our public services. I am sorry to have to say this to some of my friends who I know genuinely believe otherwise, but it will be a profoundly unpatriotic thing to leave the EU.

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[Tom Tugendhat]

I wish to make some progress.

People are understandably concerned that the factors that led them to put money into our businesses may not last. The interconnected market, the skills base and the global trading agreements are not as permanent as they once thought; they are not even as permanent as they looked a few days ago. The implications and the consequences for us are very severe. Some have begun to doubt us, but they are wrong. Britain is a powerful and growing economy, and despite the undoubted hiatus that would follow a Brexit, we will recover. Indeed, for the markets, we will once again become a safe haven, but only by comparison with our neighbours. The implication that the Europe Union could disintegrate is worrying.

Let us be under no illusion as to why the option to leave the EU is bad for Britain. It is not, as some have sadly claimed, because Britain is too small. It is not because we cannot survive in a globalised world—it is clear that we are better connected and better integrated with the global economy than many other nations. No, it is because we are the economic leaders of a continent of more than 500 million people who are crying out for that very leadership and the very reforms that we offer.

[Oliver Colvile]

Will my hon. Friend give way.

[Tom Tugendhat]

I will make a little progress if I may.

It is worth remembering that this House has shaped the leadership of Europe. We have already achieved two very significant reforms. First, Britain, under the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, steered the competing economies of Europe into a single market. She achieved that against pressure from many other member states. She did so to extend what Britain needed then and what it needs now: economic relationships that endure across the continent. The result was a huge boost to the economy. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood), who is no longer in his place, for what he did as a member of the Cabinet that took us into the single market. I also recognise the work of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who is also not in his place, as he helped us to achieve the lowest debt levels in a century.

Secondly, we have extended the boundaries of European co-operation to the borders of Russia. This may seem obvious now, but when I was growing up during the cold war, the challenge of uniting a continent seemed extraordinary. Now so obviously one nation and at peace with her neighbours, Germany was not always so, and many opposed the unity that was achieved. The inclusion of Estonia—I had the privilege of serving with Estonian troops in Afghanistan—Lithuania and Latvia shows what inclusion can achieve in the service of peace.

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[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I enter the debate with a certain amount of trepidation, especially after the powerful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat).

The reason I will be voting to remain is that, frankly, I do not trust the Germans and the French to run Europe without us there to keep a close eye on them. Over the last 16 years—as the parliamentary candidate for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport and, more recently, as its Member of Parliament—I have always sought to take a realistic Euro-view. I am not Euro-suicidal; we should make sure that this thing works for us and that we get as much as we can out of it. However, if there is a downturn in our economy, which appears likely should we come out, any action on the issue I have campaigned on for the last 16 years—the improvement of the railways and roads down to the south-west—will be put off for another 10 or 15 years, which would be a personal disaster.

The debate on our membership of the European Union is very similar to previous debates, such as those on the corn laws and imperial preference. Thank goodness our country eventually found a way through those issues, but it unfortunately had to get involved in a few world wars in the process. I am keen to ensure that that does not happen again, especially as my relatives have fought in every world war and probably every other war—we have been here for a long time.

Our job in Europe is to maintain the balance of power. That is utterly crucial. When we have walked away from Europe, we have had to pay with an enormous amount of blood and an enormous amount of treasure. I received a briefing the other day from one of the more renowned journalists in this country, who told me that America is now looking less at Europe—it sees Russia as a regional, rather than a world, issue—and that it is much more interested in the Pacific. If we come out of Europe, therefore, we will be Billy No Mates, and I do not want that to happen.

Earlier this year, during the recess, I spent a few days in Norway with the Royal Marines, seeing for myself some of the issues they have to deal with. I got involved in trying to build shelter, light a fire and kill a chicken—I did not do that—and it was all rather difficult. However, I also learned how important the Baltic states are for this country, and we must continue engaging in Europe because I am afraid that that issue is going to be very big. I would also add that the Americans are not interested in putting money into NATO; they are seeking to take it out, and the moment we decide to walk away from all of that, we will find ourselves having to spend more money.

[Tom Tugendhat]

Does my hon. Friend recognise that the Republican candidate for the United States presidency has declared NATO obsolete?

[Oliver Colvile]

Absolutely. I find that utterly stunning. That is why we want to remain.

Babcock, which runs the dockyard in my constituency and employs 5,000 people, has written a letter to The Times very firmly in support of remaining. I have a boat manufacturer that is very worried about what would happen should we come out, because it thinks that the French and the Greeks will seek to protect their own boat-building industries and that it will therefore have to pay a significant surcharge. We would end up seeing the university and students in my constituency very badly damaged. We have a global reputation for marine science engineering research, and I do not wish to jettison that.

The claimant count has come down to below 4% in an extremely deprived constituency. It is rather unique to have a Conservative Member of Parliament representing an inner-city seat that has an 11-year life expectancy difference between the northern and western parts and around Devonport. It is very important that we continue to be able to invest in changing these kinds of things.

The Prime Minister has done exactly the right thing in seeking to make sure that he got the best possible deal out of the Europeans. We have to remember that if by some chance it was decided that we should become much more integrated in the European Union, we would have another referendum. I hope that will horrify all Conservative Members, because we have had enough of all this.

This is about making sure that we have a strong position in Europe and that we deliver on the economy for the west country, but also that we do not get involved in any more world wars, or wars of any sort.

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[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

As part of Labour’s in campaign, I spoke to a woman on the phone last night. She was not sure how she was going to vote, and she did not know who to believe. She said that she just wanted the facts, so that is where I begin. We must be absolutely clear: globalisation is happening, and it is not going away. With democracy in eastern Europe and the opening up of China and India, capital, goods and people move freely across borders like never before, creating opportunities but also causing disruption. The globally connected economy means that problems in the American mortgage market can trigger a recession that spreads around the globe in hours.

That is the modern world. For us in Britain, each generation must answer this question: although we accept free trade because of the opportunities it offers, what rules are required to make the market fair? The global economy offers the UK huge potential. We have advanced service sectors, and our creative economy has boomed. Nowhere is that more obvious than in our capital, which is perhaps the most globalised city in the world, but go to Manchester or Liverpool and the story is the same.

We must be honest about globalisation. Although it creates opportunity for many, it causes others disruption and dislocation. Jobs are created, but jobs are also lost. Capital movement can grow the economy, but capital hiding—offshore and untaxed—hits our public services. How do we get maximum gains from this changing world, and how do we minimise the disadvantage? That is the real question to be answered by the EU referendum.

Amid all the misinformation in this debate, there is a deep dishonesty about the campaign to leave the European Union—or perhaps I should say the two campaigns, because there are two completely contradictory arguments up and running at the same time. On one hand, we are told that we must leave so that we can stop the disruptive effects of globalisation, close the borders, introduce protectionism and give British workers preferential treatment.

[Oliver Colvile]

Does the hon. Lady recognise that the Brexit campaign has also led people up to the top of the hill in relation to immigration and could be doing enormous damage to community relations?

[Alison McGovern]

I could not have put it better. Those who are feeling the sharp end of globalisation are presented with a particular suggestion about that as a solution, but as the hon. Gentleman says, it is nothing of the sort. It would sabotage the British economy, destroy even more jobs and reduce revenue for public services.

On the other hand, there is the other set of leavers—the people who think the problem with the EU is, as we heard earlier, that it shuts us off from globalisation. They say we should leave Europe and face the world, embrace non-EU immigration and let the market rip. Even if we ignore the difficulty of facing the world when we have no trade deals, that is not an attractive option. It would mean even more churn in the British economy, even more losers from globalisation and an even greater sense of dislocation.

Those are therefore two bad options and a false choice for Britain, but there is one even bigger deceit: the lie that we can have both those things at once. That is not true, because people are either up for free trade and taking part in the world, working with others to make markets work, or they want to shut Britain off from the world. By allowing that confusion, the leave campaign is misleading people. This dishonesty, which is put across as plain speaking, is about telling low-paid workers that there is an easy remedy for their woes when, in reality, the medicine will only make the patient sicker.

I agree with the Brexit lot on one thing: it is time for plain speaking. The truth is that the world economy has globalised, which brings big opportunities but also brings disruption and loss to many people. We will solve that not by running a siege economy or letting the market rip, but by staying in the single market and taking advantage of the opportunities that will come in the next few decades as we properly integrate services and energy into that market, which is where we stand to benefit. Given that the EU is the market for 47% of our exports, we should help eurozone countries make the economic reforms they need so that they can buy more of our goods, not just leave them to fail.

As we know, co-operation is key to how we maximise our success and central to minimising the negative effects of globalisation. It is only through co-operation in the EU that we will make sure there is no race to the bottom on working conditions. For a low-paid worker, Brexit will mean worse conditions and worse career progression. For a higher-paid worker, Brexit will mean fewer opportunities, less trade, worse pay progression and higher taxes. For a pensioner, Brexit will mean less money to invest in the pensions system. Even pro- Brexit economists acknowledge that there will be a short-term hit.

I have talked about the long term, but let me take a moment to consider the short term. Brexit will mean a recession, as if we needed another recession after the horrors of 2008. Unlike in 2008, however, we would not have a Government willing to work with others around the world to solve the crisis; we would have a recession under the most right-wing Government in living memory, and we would have a closed economy that would make all of us, but especially those with the least, poorer.

This is the question on the ballot paper next week. It is a choice between prosperity in the EU and austerity out of it; between influence in the EU and irrelevance out of it; and between facing up to the modern world economy and making it work for Britain, and pretending that we can solve our problems by quitting, which we will not. Let us vote remain.

EU Membership (Audit of Costs and Benefits) Bill

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Friday 26th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Chope]

My right hon. Friend is a lawyer, so he knows that he is absolutely correct. The Bill was brought forward back in June and we did not know then what would happen. We did not know when we would get a referendum. Now we know that we are going to get a referendum so I will not ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading today. It has been overtaken by the welcome fact that we are getting our referendum on 23 June. I hope that when that happens, we will be able to have an objective assessment of the costs and benefits of our membership, although I must say that on the basis of recent events, I am rather concerned about whether there will be such an open and objective assessment by the Government. Still, I live in hope.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Is my hon. Friend proposing to withdraw the Bill or is he going to carry on with it?

[Mr Chope]

The answer to my hon. Friend is, as always, that I am going to wait and see what the Minister says in response to my Bill. I am not going to anticipate that. Discussing the Bill provides us with a chance to look at the various issues surrounding information, or lack of it, on the costs and benefits of our membership of the European Union.

Today, I am delighted that Lord Howard—Michael Howard, as he was when he was a Member of this House—has decided to join the leave campaign. I had the privilege of serving with him as a junior Minister for several years in the late 1980s so I know what a great supporter he is of the idea of Europe. What he has shown today by his decision, however, is that he is very much against us continuing to be members of a European Union that is increasingly out of touch with the needs of the people of Europe. That is a really important move, following so soon after the decision by Lord Owen to join the leave campaign.

As a further response to the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight), let me say that I tabled a parliamentary question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 1 June 2015. It said:

“To ask Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he will commission an independent audit of the economic costs and benefits of UK membership of the EU.”

Do you know what answer I got, Madam Deputy Speaker? I shall read it to the House. It said:

“The Government has a clear mandate to improve Britain’s relationship with the rest of the EU, and to reform the EU”—

I emphasise that point—

“so that it creates jobs and increases living standards for all its citizens. The Government will hold an in/out referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU by the end of 2017.”

What was the answer to the question—I hear you saying, Madam Deputy Speaker—about the economic costs and benefits of UK membership? There was no answer. Why was there no answer from the Treasury Minister? Why did the Treasury not want to answer the question? It knew that if it said “no”, it would be ridiculed; and it knew that it did not want such an audit, so it was not prepared to say yes.

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[Mr Chope]

Exactly, and if we did not include them we could be held to account by our constituents in this House for having let them down. At the moment we can just say, “Well, it’s beyond our control; we haven’t got any influence over this.”

[Oliver Colvile]

Will my hon. Friend just explain then how long he thinks that might take given the time it has taken to get to the position we are in at the moment?

[Mr Chope]

That is interesting. I was at a meeting the week before last with a group of people from the US Senate and Congress who were interested in the subject of TTIP. I was invited to take the chair of this gathering, and one of the first questions I asked was how many of these people thought TTIP was going to be resolved by the end of this year. The answer was zero.

What we were told when the Prime Minister launched this initiative in 2013 was that we would get this sorted out before the end of the Obama presidency; it is absolutely clear we are not going to get it sorted out before then. So I then asked the same gathering of people how many of them thought it would be sorted out by the end of next year. Again, nobody thought that. Basically, the message coming from these people who are very well connected on Capitol Hill was that TTIP is very much in the long grass as far as the US is concerned because of the difficulties being put in the negotiations by the European Union, which is trying to maintain the protectionism that is still espoused by so many members of the EU and that is not compatible with what the US wants. So in answer to my hon. Friend’s question about how long a resolution would take, my view is that we would get a bilateral trade agreement between the UK and the US one heck of a sight quicker than we are ever going to get a trade deal between the EU and the US.

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[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) for promoting the Bill. This is an interesting debate. I am not sure that anybody could rationally oppose the idea of an independent cost-benefit analysis run by independent people. If somebody, including the Minister, wishes to intervene on me and deny the rational basis of that argument, I would be interested to hear what they had to say.

We had a debate about Europe yesterday. I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker, because this is the third time this week I have wearied the House with my views: I spoke yesterday, I questioned the Prime Minister on Monday and I am also speaking today. However, this is such an important issue and, frankly, it is our job to be here, even on a Friday morning, to hold the Government to account. I make no apology for that.

You were present for some of yesterday’s debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I recommend that you read it in its entirety in Hansard, because some very interesting arguments were made. I knew that my hon. Friend was going to promote this Bill today, so I asked the Foreign Secretary directly why we could not have an independent cost-benefit analysis of our membership of the EU so that we could decide whether we should stay. He said that that would not be possible because there were so many uncertainties involved in what leaving the EU would amount to. That is an interesting point of view, but it has not stopped many groups—I will refer to them in a moment—feeling that it is possible to have, or at least possible to make a decent fist of having, an independent analysis of what the decision either to remain in or to leave the EU might mean.

It is extraordinary that, while the Government tell us, quite rightly, that this is the most important decision we will take in our lifetime, constituents are already writing to me, asking, “Please can we have all the arguments laid out?” Most people in this House know their views, but millions of people in the country want an informed debate and would welcome some independent analysis of what this most important decision would mean. Apparently, unless there is going to be an announcement today—I doubt that that is going to happen—we are not going to have an independent analysis.

The question we need to direct to the Minister, therefore, is whether the Government are going to produce their own analysis. He and the Prime Minister are completely honourable people—they would never, ever wish to deceive the British public—but they are arguing for a certain point of view. Therefore, civil servants produce documents that argue a certain case. As the Minister has indicated, the Government’s viewpoint is absolutely clear: under its rules, the civil service works according to Government policy. Government policy is that we remain in the EU, so civil servants will defend that policy and produce briefing papers, analysis and all the rest in terms of that policy. Of course, civil servants would not consciously lie or deceive in any way, but we want to know from the Minister exactly what analysis the Government intend to produce over the next four months, what form it will take and what will be the nature of its independence.

The question that I put to the Foreign Secretary was this. I said that during the years when we were in opposition, we accused Gordon Brown, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, of making assumptions before the Budget that were influenced—let us put it as gently as we can—by the direction in which he wanted to go. That is why we created the Office for Budget Responsibility, which is one of our foremost achievements, apparently. I agree that it is an achievement. The assumptions that lie behind the Budget are now in the hands of a genuinely independent body.

When I was Chair of the Public Accounts Committee during those years of Labour Government, the moment the Chancellor stood up and started his Budget speech, a messenger would deliver to me on the Back Benches a fat envelope containing all the assumptions on which the Budget was based. The trouble was that they were assumptions written by civil servants who were working towards Government policy—the policy of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown. That is why we created the Office for Budget Responsibility. The question that I put to the Foreign Secretary, which he did not answer and which I repeat to the Minister, is: if this is the most important decision that we are going to make, why can we not depute the OBR to produce an analysis?

My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch has suggested a different format. Because this is a private Member’s Bill, it is, as we know, for all sorts of reasons unlikely to become law, but he has at least raised the question. It is now incumbent on the Minister to answer my hon. Friend. I am sorry, but I think that my hon. Friend’s creation is unwieldy, calling as it does for us to find an equal number of people who are in favour of leaving and of remaining. There may be perfectly justifiable arguments for that, but the Government already have independent bodies, such as the OBR and the National Audit Office, which could do the work. The NAO, which is well respected, would perhaps not be expert at dealing with issues of sovereignty, but it could certainly deal with other issues mentioned by my hon. Friend such as “burden of regulation”,

“economy (including consideration of public expenditure and receipts”

and “competitiveness and ability”. The Government already have in their hand a body or bodies that would be capable of producing such an analysis.

It is deeply worrying that Ministers who have decided to campaign to leave the EU are denied any civil service briefing on the matter. They are immediately thrown into purdah this week, and yet Ministers who are campaigning to remain in the EU have the full benefit of the civil service, which can apparently for weeks churn out propaganda. I do not use that word in a derogatory sense; propaganda simply means putting one’s point of view forward. The situation seems to me to be fundamentally unfair. Surely, the British way of doing things, particularly in referendums, is that we are fair.

We had a vote on purdah in the autumn, and my hon. Friend and I got into a bit of trouble for voting in favour of it, but we thought it was important. We thought that once the referendum campaign started, the Government should not be able to use its machine—its civil service—to argue for a point of view, because that does not happen in a general election. Perhaps we will learn from the Minister today when that purdah will actually start. Obviously, the Government are not in purdah at the moment. Civil servants are fully briefing, and the whole machine is churning out papers all the time.

All this is important because the referendum is supposed to bring a degree of closure to this subject, is it not? To do so, it must be seen to be absolutely fair. It is very important that both sides of the arguments are properly aired. Speaking for myself, if the British people decide by 55% to 45%, or whatever the figures are, to remain in the EU—after all the arguments have been properly put, and the no and yes campaigns have spent broadly the same amount of money—I will just have to accept that point of view.

However, this is a very complex area and the whole nature of the Government’s case is that leaving is all too risky. I made this point yesterday, but it is an important one: we should bear in mind that the Government are not approaching the referendum campaign with the sense of a great visionary movement in favour of the EU. The Prime Minister is saying, “Look, I am as great a Eurosceptic as you are, but I’m sorry, it’s all too risky.” When he says it is all too risky, he presumably means the costs of leaving in terms of national security, which is mentioned in the Bill, and particularly the very detailed debate on our competitiveness, the decisions of European Council meetings and the rest of it.

I want to emphasise that I see no rational argument against the Government commissioning a genuinely independent cost-benefit analysis. As I said in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), our membership of the EU means paying a subscription of £10 billion a year in order to have a £70 billion a year deficit with the EU. Normally, when someone pays a subscription to a club, they do so to have a benefit: they are prepared to pay the cost because they get something back. Frankly, given that there is a deficit of £70 billion—I agree that it exists now and will almost certainly remain if we leave the EU, because of the strength of German engineering products or French food and drinks products and all the other reasons—that is quite a big subscription to pay for it.

We want an independent study. To go back to yesterday’s debate, the Minister for Europe said in his summing up, “I’ve sat through this debate, and those who want to leave the EU have not given any sense of their vision.” That is quite true, and it is incumbent on us—it could be done as part of such a study—to give the people and the House some sense of where we want to take the nation if we leave the EU. I accept that argument—the Minister for Europe kindly added that he said that “with the exception of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough”—and I tried to give an alternative vision yesterday.

Such alternative visions need to be tested. I just have a point of view—I believe it is reasonable, but other people may say it is a prejudice—but there is no point my standing up in the House of Commons and articulating my alternative vision if there is no independent analysis of it. That is surely what the British people want and demand. I am asking them on 23 June to take the risk of leaving, and they therefore have the right to come back to me to ask such questions.

If we left the EU, I believe it would be quite exciting—I represent a rural area—to reclaim control of the common agricultural policy. In that context, I recommend the speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), the former Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, to the Oxford farming conference. He made a detailed analysis of what leaving the EU would mean for farming policy. He made the point that although food and agriculture is a huge and massively important industry—it employs more than 3.5 million people and accounts for £85 billion of GNP—agriculture policy is entirely determined by the EU. On that, this House has very little, or virtually no, independence from the EU. He was putting forward his view and arguing that alternative subsidy arrangements could be made. For instance, he argued that we should broadly spend on subsidies what we are spending now, but create a different subsidy system. He argued that we could divert more agricultural subsidies away from lowland farming to hill farmers in difficult farming environments.

I have been trying to wrestle with an understanding of farming policy for the 30 years I have been in this place. It is immensely complex, but again we have had virtually no detailed debate or analysis to inform our farmers on how they should vote. This is desperately important to them. There are hundreds of farmers in my constituency and tens of thousands of farmers throughout the country who want an answer, because they, for better or for worse, depend on the subsidy system.

[Oliver Colvile]

Does my hon. Friend recognise that it is not only the farming industry but the fishing industry that needs to be taken into account?

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I will come to the fishing industry in a moment.

Farmers are genuinely worried. I suppose the Government have got quite an easy task. They can just say, “Don’t worry. You don’t like the present system. You’ve been complaining for years that it is regulatory and burdensome, and that for years you were paid by the EU to rip out hedges and now you’re paid to put them back. You have to spend all your time not out on the land but sitting in your office in your farmhouse dealing with farming subsidies. It’s regulatory, burdensome, late and difficult but,” I suppose the Government would argue, “at least you are supported.” There is an implication on the part of the Government that if we were to leave the EU, the subsidies would vanish.

The Vote Leave campaign is absolutely explicit about that. I am absolutely explicit about it and I give this pledge. One should be quite careful what one says on the Floor of the House of Commons, but if we leave the EU the level of subsidy to the farming community will remain exactly what it is now. That is a pledge. I cannot give a pledge on behalf of the Government, but I cannot believe that anybody would resile from that. We have no idea. We have no independent analysis. We have had no real attempt, apart from by a few right hon. and hon. Friends, at detailing how the subsidies would change.

My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) mentioned fishing, which is even more important. I referred to this subject yesterday. I think I was the only one to mention it. This was the great debate we had on Europe this week with the Foreign Secretary and the shadow Foreign Secretary: we were limited to very short speeches and I had time to say perhaps one sentence about fishing. There was no detailed analysis yesterday of what leaving the EU would mean for our fishing industry, yet it is of absolutely massive and crucial importance.

People forget that in the final days of the negotiations conducted by Mr Heath, way back in 1971, he was worried that the talks were stumbling. In the final days, he handed control of our fishing industry to the European Commission with disastrous results for the port of Grimsby, which is close to my constituency, and for our entire fishing industry. I would argue that if we left the EU, it would be extraordinarily exciting to reclaim control of our fishing fleets and fishing industry, given that we are an island and that we sit surrounded by some of the most productive fishing grounds in the world. Again, there has been virtually no intelligent, thorough and informed debate of how we could manufacture or create an alternative fishing policy.

[Oliver Colvile]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Of course. I give way to somebody with far greater expertise in this area than me.

[Oliver Colvile]

The Plymouth marine laboratories were set up—I think in 1870—and they analyse whether we are overfishing our seas. If my hon. Friend wants, he could come and talk to them, but most certainly he might want to give them a ring.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I would be delighted to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency. Perhaps I could sail there in my boat from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, where it is moored. But obviously we are deeply serious about this, because the last 30 years have been a traumatic experience for our fishermen. It is a matter of immense importance. Again, we need an independent audit.

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[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

This is the first time I have intervened in the European debate, and hon. Members can rest assured that one thing I will not be talking about is the future of the hedgehog, or le hérisson, as I think it is called in French.

This is probably one of the biggest, most controversial issues we will deal with as a country, and I am acutely aware that a number of my hon. Friends take a completely different position from the one that I will espouse during my speech. I would also say that this issue—like the corn laws, free trade and imperial preference—is one of the big issues in British history. Of course, this, too, is a big trade issue, and we have to take that into account.

Over the last 15 years, as the parliamentary candidate for the Plymouth Sutton seat and, more recently, as the Member of Parliament for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, I have always sought to take a rather pragmatic attitude to what our relationship with Europe should be; I do not start from the basis of a set view of how we should proceed. I very much support what the Prime Minister has been able to do in the way of bringing back reform. The big issue of Europe kicked off when Jacques Delors said how important it was that the single market was not just about money but employment regulations and stuff like that too. I want the UK to be in Europe but not run by Europe. Now that the Prime Minister has finished his negotiations and presented his new plan for Europe, I have decided that I will vote to remain in the EU in the referendum on 23 June. I want to make it abundantly clear that I have exactly the same influence as every single one of my constituents or, for that matter, anybody in the whole of the United Kingdom. I have one vote, no more and no less.

To my mind, Britain’s role in Europe is to maintain the balance of power, and that is utterly crucial. Over the course of history, when we have walked away from Europe, we have had to go back in and sweep up the whole mess. We have invested time, money and blood in that relationship with Europe, and now is not the time for us to wash our hands of our allies and turn back.

[Mr Chope]

What does my hon. Friend think about the interventions this week by Lord Owen and Lord Howard, both of whom take a similar view to his but seem to have reached a different conclusion?

[Oliver Colvile]

Well, that is the whole business of politics, isn’t it? My hon. Friend is right to raise these issues, but ultimately this is about the future of our country within Europe and whether we are led back into having wars and things like that. I very much want to avoid that. Believe you me, my heart is for coming out, but my head says that it is not a clever thing to do.

Last week, during the recess, I spent a few days with the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy in Norway doing a survival course. We ended up building a shelter and a fire, and then we had to go and kill a chicken and eat it. Needless to say, I did not get too involved in the killing of the chicken, because I think I would have found that incredibly difficult. I heard at first hand the Norwegians’ real concerns, shared by the Baltic states, about the whole business of Russia potentially invading their country and coming through the north and the Arctic in order to do so. That made me very concerned as well. I therefore believe that our national security should not be weakened at a time of global insecurity.

[Philip Davies]

I am intrigued by my hon. Friend’s view that everything in the EU is about peace and harmony. Has he seen the rise of the far-right parties across the EU in recent years, including the largest party in France, and the record amounts of barbed wire going up around the EU? It does not strike many people as being about peace and harmony but quite the reverse in many cases.

[Oliver Colvile]

I fully agree with my hon. Friend that that issue must be looked at and taken into account, and I do, but I am talking about my personal view. This is about trying to make sure that we can maintain peace within Europe. I recognise, though, that other people have significantly different views—some even more extreme than his position might end up being. I have a great deal of time for my hon. Friend.

The EU is far from perfect, but this is not the time to throw away the good progress that the Prime Minister has made in reforming it. I am pleased that we have managed to secure an opt-out from being dragged into an ever closer union with the other 27 member states. In the previous Parliament, he managed to secure a deal that would bring the EU’s budget down for the very first time, and we should most certainly welcome that. I am, however, keen for further reform of the EU, including bringing UK fishing waters back under UK control, for which I will certainly continue to campaign. That would significantly improve the conservation of our fisheries, which I am very happy to support.

I believe that the Prime Minister’s deal will go a long way to restoring British sovereignty and reducing migration to the UK. On future immigration, if we are going to put up the shutters—we do need to control it—I am concerned about what would happen to my local Derriford hospital. If we found ourselves without any nurses from abroad, that would be a significant issue.

[Philip Davies]

Does my hon. Friend not understand that controlling immigration means that we would be able to allow into the country those we want to allow in and that we could keep out those we want to keep out? If we leave the EU and his hospital needs some nurses from abroad, there would be nothing to prevent us from allowing them to come here. We just would not have to accept everybody from the EU who wants to come here.

[Oliver Colvile]

My hon. Friend has a point, but it is important that we acknowledge that this country needs people to come here to do those jobs.

[Mr Chope]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Oliver Colvile]

I am afraid not.

Businesses in Plymouth rely on the UK’s deep links. My constituency has a global reputation for marine science and engineering research. Representatives from the Plymouth marine laboratory and from maritime organisations have told me that it is important that we continue to have links to Europe. University students in my constituency also want to be able to travel abroad. I am afraid that I have doubts about what the alternative would be if we were to leave.

Babcock, which runs the dockyard in my constituency, signed a letter to The Financial Times, saying that it is very important that we stay in. One of the big boat manufacturers in my constituency explained to me a couple of weeks ago how difficult it is to sell boats to south America. The company has to pay a 15% premium and it is very concerned about what would happen in France and Greece if we left. They would want to protect their own businesses and boat-building industries. That is another reason that I find it difficult to deal with this whole debate.

Britain has a proud history of playing its part in Europe, and I want it to continue to play an important role in reforming Europe while also promoting its interests worldwide. The terms Europhile and Eurosceptic are thrown about quite a bit, but I am neither. I am not Euro-suicidal but a Euro-realist, and that is why I will be voting to remain in the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pat Glass]

No, but I think it is worth saying. We have sat here for three hours, and we have heard Members talk for at least an hour about a Bill that they do not intend to take any further. As the Bill is about a cost-benefit analysis, perhaps we can have a cost-benefit analysis of this morning for the taxpayers of this country.

[Oliver Colvile]

My great grandfather was a rural vicar in Oxfordshire. He said that he did not mind his congregation looking at their watches; it was when they started shaking them that he became concerned. I feel that that is something we should take on board.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I assure you that I am beginning to look at my watch.

[Pat Glass]

That is helpful. As the hon. Gentleman has spoken about his great grandfather, I will talk about mine a little later. [Interruption.] Would the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) like to say something about my great grandfather? I will talk about him later, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to intervene then.

[Oliver Colvile]

I would like the hon. Lady to talk about her great grandfather.

[Pat Glass]

I will do so later.

We had a long debate on European affairs yesterday. I am sure we would all agree that it was an excellent debate, with many outstanding contributions. The debate has felt a little flat today, because we have returned to the usual suspects with the usual very narrow arguments. However, it gives me an opportunity to talk once again about the benefits of being a member of the European Union. I do not think—this is one of our criticisms of the Bill—that the benefits of being a member of the European Union can be narrowed down to simply an economic cost. The question is much bigger than that.

Labour, as hon. Members know, are united on this issue. We believe that Britain is stronger, safer and more prosperous as part of the European Union.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

If debating European affairs is your thing, Mr Deputy Speaker, you will have had a great week.

The starting gun to the core of what we are debating today began with the Prime Minister’s Bloomberg speech in January 2013. That was the first indication, by any Prime Minister, to say that he intended to take the opportunity to have a serious conversation with Europe; to say we are not content with our relationship with Europe, that we believe too many powers have been ceded to Brussels and that the EU is not transparent or competitive enough. That culminated in the Prime Minister last weekend debating with other Heads of State and Prime Ministers to establish the changes that he feels need to take place if Britain is to be justified in staying in the European Union.

The Prime Minister returned from those discussions on Saturday. On Monday, he made a statement, saying that his principal recommendation is to remain in the EU. He said, however, that it would not be for politicians but the people to decide on our long-term relationship with the EU. This generation gets to choose. As we now know, the referendum will take place on 23 June. If that was not enough, the issue was raised at Prime Minister’s questions, and there were the launches for the various in and out campaigns, with all their gusto and vim. Then, yesterday, we had a full day’s debate, in Government time, opened by the Foreign Secretary and closed by the Europe Minister. I agree about the repetition in some of our Europe debates—I remember many times just printing off my speech from my hard drive, with the bullet points ready to go, and coming here to give a similar exposé of my views on Europe—but, despite seeing the usual suspects committed to debating Europe, I think that today’s subject matter is different.

I disagree with the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass). Although it is clear that, should the Bill get anywhere, the date of the referendum would have to shift, I believe the debate is useful. Every time we have a debate, in the House or elsewhere, on Europe, more details emerge and more questions arise, and that is healthy. We saw it in the debates leading up to the Scottish and alternative vote referendums. That is important because these are difficult matters for us to get our heads around—there are questions to be raised and challenges to be made. In fact, new questions have been posed today, on both sides of the argument, and, if it helps, I will try to answer some of them.

I agree that this place has not always been brilliant at understanding the EU at its heart. I recall writing a pamphlet in opposition entitled, “Upgrading UK Influence in the European Union”. I think there are only two copies left: the one I have in my hand, and the one proudly owned by my mother, who is the only other person I know who has definitely read it. I flicked through it to remind myself of my frustration that the country did not scrutinise enough of what was going on in Brussels—this was before 2010, when we were in opposition.

The pamphlet asked what Parliament could do to better understand what was happening in Brussels. We spend a lot of time in this place arguing and complaining about the results of legislation coming from Brussels, but how much time do we invest in understanding the mechanisms and processes in order that we might challenge or stop it coming through in the first place?

[Oliver Colvile]

Does my hon. Friend recognise that we also need to send good-quality civil servants to Europe to argue our case properly?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I would argue that the civil servants we send there are among the best in the world. It is a huge privilege and honour to work in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, although many of the civil servants in Brussels come from other Departments.

I must say, however, that we are granted 12% of the jobs in the EU, in the various Commission roles and so forth, but, of late, we have not taken them, because there are language exams to be taken, and the language school in the Foreign Office was closed down. There were important top jobs to be had, but because our civil servants could not pass the two language courses required—one at a higher level, one at a more subsidiary level—we could not fill the very roles that would have allowed us the necessary influence in the EU, in the bowels of Brussels, to change, affect and advance legislation.

I am pleased to say that we are changing that—the language school is back in place and able to train civil servants to the correct levels—but when I wrote the pamphlet, before the 2010 election, we were filling only 3% to 4% of those jobs, meaning that 8% of the jobs to which Britain was entitled were going to other countries. One is supposed to relinquish one’s passport—metaphorically—when one becomes a civil servant in the EU, but of course one remains British at heart, or Italian or French, or whatever it is. It was a waste of an opportunity to scrutinise, understand and affect what was going on in the EU. I am pleased to say that the civil service situation has changed, and that we are now far more immersed in Brussels.

Let us look at some of the big ticket items that have been agreed—I shall come on to them in more detail later, if I may—such as the trade deal with Korea or the patent agreement that protects any invention. You might have a small invention that you have pocketed away, Mr Deputy Speaker, and not yet told us about, but you can be assured that you will be able to present it and it will be protected right across the European Union. It was British civil servants who were able to pilot this measure through, and it provides an example of the sort of work they are doing.

To answer my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), our understanding of these matters is important. When I was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister for Europe, I remember organising cross-party visits for Members of Parliament to make the trip to Brussels so that they could learn about the EU, meet civil servants and understand how the European Parliament and various parts of the Commission work. Most of them were so delighted to get back on the Eurostar at the end of the day that they never wanted to see Brussels again, such was the scale of the bureaucracy. That highlights a challenge, but it perhaps also reflects the absence of a determination to say that we should be turning the situation around. We should not simply turn our backs on it and accept everything that happens; we should try to enhance British influence over what happens in Europe.

That is exactly what our Prime Minister has done in working with our allies and trying to effect change for the better. There are many countries, many Prime Ministers and many statesmen who agree with our free market liberal views on how the European Union should be conducted. They agree with us that it has become too politically empowered and not sufficiently transparent, and that although it is the largest single market in the world, it is becoming overburdened with red tape and bureaucracy. From a social perspective, furthermore, it is the most costly area in the world. Some 50% of social services in the world are found on our own doorstep in the European Union. That means that we are uncompetitive in comparison with other places in the longer term, which is exactly what the Prime Minister was trying to determine in his negotiations at the weekend. He explained what he returned with in his statement on Monday.

I am pleased that we have had yet another opportunity this week to debate these matters, and I am sure it will not be the last time. I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch for stepping in for our hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who was originally going to articulate his views on the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch has done so with the same gusto that he has always shown in previous debates on the European Union. It is a matter of record and knowledge that he is my parliamentary Dorset neighbour, and I look forward to him donning one of the amazing ties that the leave campaign is promoting and going on the campaign trail in Dorset in the run-up to 23 June.

We heard contributions from other Members, including from my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who articulated important questions about the merits of the European Union which need to be answered by those who want to remain in the EU. That is important for the public, many of whom are yet to make up their minds on the merits or otherwise of continuing our membership of the European Union.

The speech of the day was, I thought, given by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh)—not simply because of its length, but its quality as well. He made some erudite points, and I thought he was extremely honest about what the British nation might expect from the leave campaign when it comes to articulating what it would mean if we did leave. He was honest in raising some question marks over what might happen to the common fisheries policy and the common agricultural policy. Many people support these policies now, so it is important for them to understand the consequences of leaving. It was very honest of him to pose those questions, and the nation must hear the answers in a proper debate.

The “Project Fear” label has crept into the discussion many times. We want to win the arguments because people have decided on the merits—the whys and wherefores—of both sides, rather than because they were unclear about the position, or because one side had decided to scaremonger. What worries me is that this might descend into something like an American presidential election campaign, in which the negative overshadows the positives and the educated points of view.

My hon. Friend also raised a number of specific questions, and I shall come to those later.

I am pleased to say that that my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) managed to get hedgehogs into yet another debate, although he was not intending to talk about a subject for which he has become famous. He also made the point that this is one of the biggest debates that we will ever have, and that it is therefore right for us to devote time and energy to looking at all the details.

I am saddened that more Members have not taken the time to join us on a Friday. I do not know where the Scottish nationalists are, but at least the Labour Front Benchers have made it, and I am pleased about that. In any event, I am sure that Members will have further opportunities to debate these matters in due course.

As I said earlier, we had a full and wide-ranging debate on Europe yesterday, opened by the Foreign Secretary. One speech that was pivotal, and stood out, was the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas Soames). It was a powerful oration, not least because my right hon. Friend mentioned his grandfather. As Members will know, his grandfather, looking at the mess of Europe, was concerned about how countries could integrate to the point at which they were no longer independent but interdependent, and would therefore never go down the road towards war again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ellwood]

Let me come on to free trade, because those issues were raised in the debate and perhaps I can answer my hon. Friend’s point. The European Union is our main trading partner and, as has been said, that trade is worth more than £500 million a year. That is half our total trade in goods and services. However, we can still trade with the rest of the world as well, and the EU has free trade agreements with more than 50 countries—that is alongside the 28 countries in the single market. Around 45% of Britain’s exports are designed for the single market itself, while 56% go to the single market and to countries the EU has free trade deals with. [Interruption.] I will give way to somebody if they would like to give me a break so that I can clear my throat.

[Oliver Colvile]

Could not failing to go through the right procedures end up delaying our exit from the EU because the issue would need to go the various courts? It is a bit like when a planning application goes wrong and someone is not happy with the process.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am grateful for that intervention—from a number of angles—and my hon. Friend makes an important point.

We have dealt with the delays, so I will move on to TTIP’s impact on the health service, which hon. Members raised. Many hon. Members have received emails on this subject questioning what the situation is. I should make it clear that TTIP poses no threat to the NHS whatever. It cannot force the UK to privatise public services, and any suggestion to the contrary is irresponsible and, indeed, false. The Prime Minister, the European Commission and the US Government have made that clear. The NHS—indeed, public services—will not be privatised through the trade deal, nor will the deal open NHS services to further competition or make irreversible any decisions on the provision of NHS services that are taken by the UK Government. I hope that that makes the position clear in answer to the many emails many of us have had on this issue—in fact, there might even be a 38 Degrees campaign on this.

Overseas Territories Joint Ministerial Council

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[James Duddridge]

As it differs from territory to territory, I will struggle to give my hon. Friend an absolute date by which that will be done. I am reviewing what we are doing this year, and that is one checkpoint. Another checkpoint will be the end of February, which sits halfway between the beginning of the new year and the Prime Minister’s conference on corruption. I expect significant progress to be made during that time. A lot of that progress, however, will be what is committed rather than what is done. We will need to commit to a precise timescale. I think that timescale will vary quite significantly from territory to territory depending on how they hold their data—in paper or electronic format and whether that is in a central place—and whether they need to change legislation to bring all the information together once they have agreed in principle to do so.

I should be able to give my hon. Friend a better answer early next year once we have gone through the process. The timescales should be challenging not only in reaching agreement on what should be done but, as he says, in terms of what is done.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

As the Minister knows, the Chancellor announced in the March Budget that the waters around the Pitcairn Islands would be a marine protected area, something in which Plymouth Marine Laboratory, the university and the Marine Biological Association take a great deal of interest. Will my hon. Friend explain how this process is moving forward, so that other overseas territories are able to consider becoming marine conservations areas, too?

[James Duddridge]

Marine biodiversity around overseas territories is enormous. In fact, a large percentage of global biodiversity, on both land and sea, is in and around the overseas territories. The Pitcairn Islands provide a strong example of how a marine protection area can work. There are similar investigations on Ascension Island. We are working collaboratively with other territories to consider how this scheme might be extended. It was in the Conservative party manifesto to extend a blue belt across the overseas territories. In reality, I think that will mean a different type of solution for some islands, but this issue is discussed every time we meet and every time we meet we make further progress in protecting biodiversity.

Scotland and Malawi Relations

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Monday 30th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, or zikomo kwambiri and yewo chomene, as we would say in Chichewa and Tumbuka. I am very glad to have the opportunity to mark Scotland’s national day—the feast of St Andrew—with this debate on the enduring relationship between my country and the country known as the warm heart of Africa, the Republic of Malawi.

A number of distinguished guests are watching these proceedings, either from the Gallery or via the broadcast, including representatives from the Malawi high commission to the UK and the UK high commission to Malawi. You will be aware, Mr Speaker, that His Excellency the President Professor Peter Mutharika is also visiting the UK today, and I had the honour and pleasure of meeting him at a cross-party group meeting earlier. To all of them, I say: Kwa inu nonse a Malawi anzanga omwe mwabwera kuno, tikulandirani ndi manja awiri. You are all most welcome on this special occasion.

Earlier this month we marked the 10th anniversary of the formal co-operation agreement signed by the Governments of Malawi and Scotland in 2005, and in October the civil society network, the Scotland Malawi Partnership, held its 10th annual general meeting. Ten years of formal co-operation between the countries build on a legacy stretching back more than 150 years, to the time of Dr David Livingstone, who is rightly remembered for his opposition to the slave trade. His impact on Malawi is commemorated in the naming of its major commercial city, Blantyre, after his home town in Lanarkshire, the home of my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier). Indeed, it is difficult to go anywhere in either Scotland or Malawi and not meet people, communities or organisations that have connections to the two countries.

My own connections also began slightly more than 10 years ago, when I travelled with the now sadly missed Scottish Churches World Exchange programme to the northern capital of Mzuzu. As a boy from Scotland’s highland capital, Inverness, I thought that was very fitting. I made my home there for the next 12 months, along with some fellow volunteers, and we were warmly welcomed by the community of St Peter’s cathedral parish and the school where we were to teach.

As is often the experience of teachers, I probably learned far more from my students than they learned from me. Perhaps the most important thing I learned—or at least the experience confirmed this for me—is that no matter where in the world we go, people are the same. I taught kids who were eager to learn, and I taught kids who just wanted to be outside playing football. I met mothers and fathers who wanted nothing but the best for their children. I met priests and sisters of great faith, and I met others who had left their ministry. I met locals propping up bars late at night, drinking the local Kuche Kuche brew and putting the world to rights, and I met farmers, bakers, shopkeepers, starting their early morning shifts—although I hasten to add that they were not all walking together.

What was different was the context. Malawi is one of the poorest countries on earth: it ranks 174th out of 187 countries in the United Nations human development index. Life expectancy at birth is just 55 years, and half of the population live below the national poverty line, but all of those statistics represent improvements on the situation 10 years ago.

The difference between Scotland and Malawi lies not in the desire or the ability of the people to build a better life for themselves, but in the opportunities they have to do so. What stands in the way of those opportunities for people in Malawi is rarely the result of decisions taken in Malawi, but, rather, deep-rooted, structural causes that we in the west must take responsibility both for bringing about and for helping to bring to an end.

As we hold this debate today, world leaders are meeting in Paris for the climate change summit. Climate change is one of the biggest challenges facing people and the planet. It exacerbates the existing challenges of poverty, conflict, disease, resource depletion and population displacement.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on successfully securing this debate, and on his attendance when we met the President earlier today. Does he think that we in England also have a responsibility to make sure we are investing in Malawi? I know that part of the world incredibly well, and it is time we took a serious interest in it.

[Patrick Grady]

Yes, of course: the debate is on Scotland’s relations with Malawi, but we recognise that there are bonds of friendship across the UK. The President expressed a number of useful comments and insights to the cross-party group, including on the importance of investment and, indeed, on the need for an agreement at the Paris summit. Malawi has been affected by climate changes, as have so many countries in that part of the world.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Duddridge]

I have no hesitation in congratulating those pupils on their excellent work, and I would love to find out more if the hon. Lady has some time to tell me about that programme and the work done by that school.

[Oliver Colvile]

Is my hon. Friend also aware that Plymouth St Andrew’s has a very close relationship with Medic Malawi in Kasungu, and does an enormous amount to send people out to help them to develop their healthcare?

Burma

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Thursday 5th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[James Duddridge]

I would advise anyone thinking of travelling to look at the Foreign Office website for travel advice, particularly if they are going to places such as Burma where a significant event is happening on Sunday. Travel advice can change very quickly around the world. I spoke to consular staff yesterday on a number of issues, and I know that our consular support is some of the best in the world. The advice provided on the website is bang up to date and easily accessible; if things change on an hour-by-hour basis, that is the right place to look.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I, too, welcome my very good hon. Friend back to this place. I very much look forward to working with him on Zimbabwe, in which, as he knows, I have a very keen interest. As you may know, Mr Speaker, the Minister’s parents-in-law used to live in my constituency and one was a councillor in Plymouth.

On my way to work this morning, I heard on the radio that the military in Burma was suggesting that if Aung San Suu Kyi should end up winning this election, it would not allow her to become President. Will my hon. Friend comment on that? He may not have heard this news.

Oral Answers to Questions

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

The processes we are following are well established in international law. I commend the work of Federica Mogherini, the EU lead on this. In April, she brought together EU member states on the common security and defence policy operation that will ensure we are able to prevent the boats from leaving Libya in the first place.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

5. What assessment he has made of public support for holding a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU.

[Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

14. What assessment he has made of public support for holding a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU.

[Oliver Colvile]

I applaud the Government’s effort to reform the common fisheries policy, but may I urge my right hon. Friend to continue to reform the EU to help businesses further, including the fishing industry in my Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport constituency?

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course, we have already achieved some success in relation to the fishing industry, demonstrating that it is possible to change things in the UK’s interest within the EU. One of the key drivers of reform is the need for Europe to up its game to generate more economic growth to create the jobs and the prosperity that the continent needs, which will be good for all 28 member states, not just for Britain.

Britain in the World

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Monday 1st June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) and my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South (Mrs Drummond) on their speeches. Both the Clyde and Portsmouth have made a huge contribution to this country’s influence around the world and it is fitting that the hon. Members spoke in this debate.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Plymouth has an historic place in all this, too?

[Henry Smith]

Plymouth is indeed another great British city that has projected that image to the world. I just wish that my hon. Friend had intervened slightly more than a minute into my speech so that I would have been given a little bit of extra time.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) for focusing on the importance of the Commonwealth and the British overseas territories. It is very pleasing to see the flags of the British overseas territories flying in Parliament Square today and I am very proud to have been part of a Conservative-led Government in the last Parliament that put the overseas territories at the forefront of our policy. The Government will, I hope, continue to do so, whether that means ensuring that the people of Gibraltar or the Falkland Islands who wish to remain British have that right defended, or investing in infrastructure such as the new airstrip on St Helena.

This evening, I want to address some unfinished business with the overseas territories—that is, the future of the British Indian Ocean Territory. About a decade ago, many Chagos islanders came to Gatwick airport in the Crawley constituency and, I am pleased to say, settled in Crawley. Crawley now has the largest Chagossian community anywhere in the world. As the House will know, the Chagos islanders, British citizens, were exiled from their homeland in 1968 by Orders in Council and by royal prerogative. The decision did not come through Parliament. A great injustice was done at that time. Of course, we cannot turn back time but we can start to right those wrongs.

I am delighted that the last Government initiated a feasibility study into the resettlement of the British Indian Ocean Territory and I call on the Government to implement that study. There are a number of pilots for the possibility of the Chagos islanders returning. The Chagos islanders were removed from Diego Garcia and some of the outer islands, such as Salomon and Peros Banhos, to make way for a US airbase. That airbase is and has been important for the security of the democratic western world, both in the Soviet era and today with uncertainty in the middle east, but that should not preclude those islanders being able to return to their homeland should they so wish.

I am struck by the fact that in a fortnight’s time we will celebrate the 800th anniversary of the signing of Magna Carta just a few miles upstream along the Thames. Article 39 states that no person should be imprisoned or exiled without due process, yet I fear that that is what has happened to the British citizens of the Chagos islands. Much has been said about why they should not be able to return, including much about the environmental reasons, and on the 22nd of this month the Supreme Court will determine a case on their right of return. I do not see any issue, however, with allowing subsistence living by a modest number of Chagos islanders back on Diego Garcia and some of the outer islands if possible. I am pleased that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development is in the Chamber because I believe that we can use some of that budget to facilitate the return of the Chagos islanders.

In this 800th year of Magna Carta I hope that the Government’s feasibility study on the right of return to the Chagos islands can finally be implemented so we can right a wrong of almost half a century.

Gibraltar

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Simmonds]

I understand my hon. Friend’s concern and that of her constituents, and she will not be surprised to hear that they are not unique in holding those views. There is genuine anger about both what has happened at the border and the incursion into British Gibraltar territorial waters. Obviously, as I said in my initial remarks, we constantly review whether the Royal Navy’s deployment in Gibraltar is adequate. She will be under no illusions about the fact that we are now reviewing that, but ultimately this has to be resolved through diplomatic and political mechanisms. It is in no one’s interest to escalate this conflict. We hope that implementation of the European Commission’s recommendations, as set out in its letter to the Spanish Government, and maintaining the firm stance that incursions into the waters are completely and utterly unacceptable will change behaviour.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to Gibraltar for its 300 years of gallantry, fortitude and loyalty to the British Crown? Is he willing to meet me and some of my constituents who have been campaigning for that great naval port to be granted the George Cross? Finally, if he ends up having to send the military to Gibraltar, will he ensure that he sends the Royal Marines to support the Royal Gibraltar Regiment? After all, it was they who secured it in the first place.

UK Relations with Gibraltar and Spain

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Jim Dobbin]

I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman’s comments. The all-party group has been to Gibraltar several times, and that is what people actually see in Gibraltar.

Also in August, the border restrictions again increased waiting times to three hours. The Prime Minister intervened and complained to Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy about the delays. The delays, however, continued to occur, for up to three hours. In August, the Spanish media said that Spanish Foreign Secretary Garcia-Margallo was considering a partnership with Argentina to take action through the United Nations against the UK and Gibraltar and possibly at the International Court of Justice. The border delays continued, for up to four hours, and the British Prime Minister suggested that the European Commission monitor the situation at the border—more of that later.

In mid-August, 35 Spanish fishing boats protested in Spanish water and entered British Gibraltar territorial water. That incident was policed by the Royal Gibraltar Police and the Guardia Civil, with, on that occasion, good co-operation between the two, and peace was maintained.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Gibraltar has been part of the United Kingdom—has come under the Crown—for the past 300 years, and will he join me in the campaign to see whether it might be awarded the George cross?

[Jim Dobbin]

Yes, I am well aware of that campaign, but Spain does not seem to be aware of the treaty of Utrecht. On the point about the George cross, that is a campaign that the hon. Gentleman and the other campaigners will want to pursue. I would suggest that they appreciate the sensitivity of that issue, because the George cross is associated with Malta at present. Therefore, perhaps that campaign should be at arm’s length and respectful of the difficult situation that the Government of Gibraltar are in.

Spanish Foreign Secretary Garcia-Margallo issued the Spanish legal position on Gibraltar in The Wall Street Journal, but without inclusion of the impact on the Gibraltar people or their wishes on self-determination. It was an extremely biased article.

On 27 August, the mayor of a Spanish town posted a mocked-up picture of Spain invading Gibraltar online—another very provocative act.

Gibraltar and the George Cross

Oliver Colvile Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for selecting me to have this debate on the possibility of the Crown awarding Gibraltar a George Cross to demonstrate that gallant naval port’s loyalty to Britain. The George Cross was created on 31 January 1941 by Her Majesty’s father, George VI. It has been awarded twice to a group of people, first to Malta in 1942 for its resistance following significant bombing by the Germans during the second world war, and more recently to the Royal Ulster Constabulary in 1999. I pay tribute to the armed forces that served in Northern Ireland during recent times. In both cases, the Crown recognised that those groups of people had shown real loyalty to the United Kingdom.

I am firmly behind the George Cross for Gibraltar campaign, which is organised by one of my constituents, Kevin Kellway. Kevin has had an illustrious campaigning career. When I first met him, he was campaigning for the restoration of the art deco Tinside pool on Plymouth Hoe, which is one of the jewels in our city’s crown. Before I arrived in Plymouth, Kevin was one of the leading lights in the campaign for Gibraltar to become part of the south-west region within the European Parliament. He organised a 30,000-strong petition in the 1990s to keep the Rock British.

Gibraltar’s connection with Devonport, in my constituency, is legendary, because both have a naval dockyard and naval base. Three hundred years ago this year, Gibraltar was ceded in perpetuity by the Spanish to the British Crown at the treaty of Utrecht in 1713 following the Spanish war of succession. It is now a British dependent territory and has withstood more than four sieges over the past three centuries. Throughout that time, it has remained loyal to the Crown.

The Spanish war of succession arose over the succession to the Spanish Crown following the death of the childless Charles II of Spain in November 1700. The two candidates for the throne—who, needless to say, were not up for election—were the French Prince Philip of Anjou, grandson of Louis XIV of France, and the Habsburg Archduke Charles of Austria. Louis XIV, the Spaniards who were loyal to Philip V and the Electorate of Bavaria supported Philip of Anjou. England, the Netherlands, Austria, Portugal, Savoy and some of the German states supported Charles in a grand alliance, because they were concerned that the unification of the Spanish and French Crowns might result in France dominating not only Europe but the Americas. That was before the American war of independence.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have written a George Cross citation, and I always thought that one of the criteria was that it had to be awarded for something that had happened post its foundation, so retrospective gallantry awards before the second world war would be difficult. I am in total favour, and a supporter of Gibraltar, but I wonder on what criteria a George Cross could be awarded since 1941-42.

[Oliver Colvile]

Gibraltar has an extremely distinguished historic position and loyalty, and I will come on to that during my speech.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The fact that Gibraltar has withstood four sieges, and that it has withstood military and economic threat since it became British, is a good reason for the country to be given the George Cross.

[Oliver Colvile]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his helpful intervention. I think that that is a fair point, and I will address it later in my speech.

Since the beginning of the war in 1701, the allies had been looking for a harbour in the Iberian peninsula from which to control the strait of Gibraltar and facilitate naval operations in the western Mediterranean. The key players in that campaign for Gibraltar were our own Royal Marines. I fear that I must declare an interest here. Not only is the British amphibious capability based in Devonport, and 3 Commando Brigade in Stonehouse—both in my constituency—but I am the vice-chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for the armed forces, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray), with special responsibility for the Royal Marines. Therefore, I see my role as the champion and ambassador for the Royal Marines in Parliament.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend gives me the opportunity to say in public something that I have often thought in private, namely that he does an outstandingly good job of chairing the Royal Marines group in Parliament, and I am extremely grateful to him for it.

[Oliver Colvile]

I thank my hon. Friend for that wonderful intervention. As hon. Members may know, Gibraltar is the battle honour of which the Royal Marines are most proud. Gibraltar appears on their berets, and they take a massive pride in that battle honour; indeed, it is the only one that they recognise. For me, that badge encapsulates the Royal Marines and their commando spirit.

Beneath the Rock of Gibraltar, the only landmark in the region, sits the densely populated city. It is home to more than 30,000 Gibraltarians, who in 1967 and 2002 rejected proposals for them to become part of Spain. It is a major economic motor in that part of southern Spain. In the 2002 referendum, 99% of Gibraltarians voted to remain British.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He quite rightly pays tribute to Gibraltar’s fantastic past glories, especially when it comes to military capability. He and I both have a great connection with Gibraltar through our south-west constituencies. It is worth mentioning that we are not talking just about the past, even though his campaign may be about the past. I want to put on the record how grateful we are that Gibraltar is of vital strategic value in the Mediterranean and for our forward operating base capabilities. Indeed, it recently played a role in Operation Ellamy.

[Oliver Colvile]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and I welcome him back to the House of Commons after the rather difficult time that he had over the summer. He makes a fair point, which I hope to deal with. Gibraltar played a significant role prior to the battle of Trafalgar and during the Crimean war. Its strategic value increased with the opening of the Suez canal, because it lay on the sea routes between Britain and the British empire east of Suez. If Britain had not had control of those straits, we would not have been able to bottle up the French fleet in the Mediterranean during the Napoleonic wars. That would have allowed the French to come out from Toulon and run all over the Atlantic.

Gibraltar also played a major role during the second world war. The decision by the Spanish dictator Franco to remain neutral during the war, and Spain’s reluctance to allow the German army on to Spanish soil, stopped Hitler gaining control of the strategic naval port. Gibraltar has not only provided a naval base and dockyard for our Royal Navy to operate from, but has ensured that we have a Mediterranean base where ships and submarines can be repaired when out on operations.

I believe that by giving Gibraltar the George Cross, Britain will send a clear message that we want to thank the Gibraltarians for their loyalty and that we abide by the commitment that the Gibraltarians have shown in referendums to remaining a British overseas territory. Consistently, Spain has campaigned for the British Government to hand over sovereignty of the Rock. The current dispute over the fishing reef is yet another example of how the Spanish Government do not get the message. For some reason they think that if they carry on pushing they will get a result. I hope that nothing could be further from the truth.

It has always been said that Gibraltar will cease to be British only when the monkeys leave the Rock. The last time I was there was on national day last year, when I met a delightful former Miss World, and I assure you, Mr Crausby, that the monkeys were present in abundance. They stole fruit from my bedroom in the Rock hotel. I fully realise that the Government must consider proposals of this kind case by case. However, giving Gibraltar the George Cross would support its fortitude, loyalty and determination, and would emphasise the nature of the honour—an emphasis established by George VI himself. Anyone who wants to join me, the Friends of Gibraltar and Gibraltar’s Equality Rights group in the campaign for the George Cross can access the petition on http://dorcasmedia.com/gibraltar-petition or on the George Cross for Gibraltar Facebook page. In so doing they will be sending a very clear message: hands off our Rock!

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Simmonds]

My hon. Friend makes a good historical point. Of course, he will be aware of Gibraltar’s pivotal strategic role not only in the Napoleonic wars but in the second world war—despite serious attempts by the axis powers to take it.

The Chairman of the Equality Rights group in Gibraltar, Mr Alvarez, whom I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport knows, is leading the “Thumbs Up for Gibraltar” campaign, which was launched in Gibraltar in mid-August. The commendable and worthwhile overall aim of the campaign is to generate awareness and support for Gibraltar among the British public.

[Oliver Colvile]

My hon. Friend may know that I have also taken part, and had my photograph taken at the Royal Naval hospital in Stonehouse in my constituency, with my thumbs up. If the Minister would like to take the opportunity to do that at some stage, we should be delighted to have him on board.

[Mark Simmonds]

I am sure that my hon. Friend will know that I am a dedicated and passionate advocate of Gibraltar and the other overseas territories. I work closely with the Gibraltar Government and other overseas territories Governments, to increase co-operation between those territories and the UK, and to bring about more inward investment from the UK and more capacity building from the UK Government, to help them to cope with life in the 21st century. That is all set out in “The Overseas Territories”, the White Paper published in June 2012. A key part of that was to do with increasing public awareness of the territories, and I wish the “Thumbs Up” campaign, in all its various guises, well in its efforts to do that.

I should mention that Gibraltar is an active and energetic participant in the joint ministerial council. The council convenes every year, and the leaders of the overseas territories come together in London to discuss important issues. I hope and believe that Gibraltar will continue to play an important role in that.

Mr Alvarez wrote to the Prime Minister in mid-August setting out why he believes it would be appropriate for Gibraltar to receive the George Cross; particular stress is placed on historical arguments and Gibraltar’s strategic role in the second world war. The campaign also points out Gibraltar’s steadfast response to more recent events, such as those of the Franco era, and its role as a base for military operations in conflicts in the Gulf and the Falklands. Those events cover a long period. I recognise the hardship that the people of Gibraltar have suffered in wartime. They have experienced some very difficult times as a result of political pressure from Spain. The closure of the border from 1969 until its full re-opening in 1985 caused prolonged distress to thousands of people by separating families and friends. This summer the people of Gibraltar have again demonstrated their resolve in a period of heightened tensions. The strength of their spirit was once again reflected in the celebrations in Gibraltar on national day this year.

Perhaps it would be helpful for me to say a little about gallantry awards.

[Mark Simmonds]

My hon. Friend is right to put on the record the significant contribution of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment. I was not aware that members of the Regiment were coming this afternoon, but I hope that as many hon. Members as possible will attend to pay their respects in view of the significant contribution that has been made.

Furthermore, the Governor-designate of Gibraltar, Lieutenant-General Sir James Dutton, who takes up his appointment this year, is the former Commandant-General Royal Marines. He maintains those strong links between the UK and Gibraltar, because the Royal Marines’ historical links date back a significant way—to 1704, I believe—which further cements and exemplifies the importance of the UK-Gibraltar relationship.

Gallantry awards are usually made in recognition of specific acts of bravery by individuals in saving or attempting to save life. The George Cross, as hon. Members know, is the highest of the awards for civilian gallantry. The hallmark of the award is deliberate self-sacrificial heroism with the imminent prospect of death. Before anyone else points it out, however, although the George Cross is intended for acts by individuals, it has been awarded on a collective basis on two occasions: to Malta in 1942, and to the Royal Ulster Constabulary in 1999.

This debate is not about Malta or the RUC, but it is relevant to point out the circumstances in which they were awarded the George Cross, because that will help to explain why such an award is so rare. Malta was awarded the honour for the heroism and devotion of her people in the face of extraordinary danger. The island experienced one of the heaviest, most sustained and concentrated aerial bombardments in history. Axis forces flew some 3,000 bombing raids over two years. From 1 January to 24 July 1942, there was only one 24-hour period in which no bombs fell on Malta. In March and April 1942, the island received twice the bomb tonnage dropped on London during the blitz. The population were forced to live in tunnels and caves, where they suffered malnutrition and scabies, and 1,600 civilian lives were lost—a huge and significant sacrifice.

The RUC was honoured for its service as a bulwark against, and the main target of, a sustained and brutal terrorist campaign. The force suffered heavily in protecting both sides of the community from danger. By the time of the award in 1999, 302 officers had been killed in the line of duty and thousands more had been injured, many seriously.

I have noted carefully the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport has made regarding Gibraltar, as well as the contents of the letter sent to the Prime Minister. I hope that hon. Members understand that what I can say today about the success or otherwise of such a nomination is limited, and I understand that no formal application has yet been made. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has replied to Mr Alvarez’s letter to the Prime Minister with details of the criteria for gallantry awards, including the George Cross, and with guidance on how to submit a nomination. As part of any such nomination, the “Thumbs Up” campaign, Mr Alvarez and the others who are interested should put forward all the historical and contemporary evidence that they consider to be relevant in support of their case. All such information will be received.

There is a George Cross nomination committee. The form will initially be sent to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, which will discuss and consult throughout Government. Any conclusions and recommendations will then be sent to the Cabinet Office. Ultimately, the committee’s recommendations are referred to the Prime Minister, who forwards them to Her Majesty the Queen for final approval or otherwise.

[Oliver Colvile]

Will the Minister give some kind of time scale for the committee coming to a conclusion and making a decision? He might prefer to write to me and set it out later.

[Mark Simmonds]

It is difficult to set out a detailed time frame when no formal nomination has been received. To ensure against any misunderstanding, however, I am more than happy to write to my hon. Friend and place a copy of the letter in the House of Commons Library, so that all hon. Members can see the time scale for the process to reach a conclusion once a nomination has been received.

All reasonable cases for civilian gallantry awards are given serious and careful consideration by the George Cross committee. Its recommendations are referred to the Prime Minister. I urge my hon. Friend and other interested parties, who so passionately believe in their campaign, to expedite the application so that clarity can be given as soon as possible. Whatever the result of any deliberations and consultations, I hope that the huge positive significance of the UK relationship with Gibraltar—in terms of Gibraltarians being enthused by being an overseas territory of the UK and of the UK being enthused by the positive reaction of Gibraltar to the close ties—will continue in perpetuity. It will certainly continue, as long as this Government are in power, for as long as the Gibraltan people want to remain closely tied to and an overseas territory of the UK.