Big Society

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jon Cruddas]

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me for literally one minute, I will come on to a couple of instances that are a hallmark of the previous Government’s record, which should be compared and contrasted with the collapse in infrastructure that will result from providing the big society on the ground.

The Government say little on fairness in talking about the big society. There is a strong correlation between levels of deprivation and levels of civic engagement, with more deprived areas less likely to participate in volunteering. Third sector organisations tend to be more dependent on public money in more deprived areas, and more deprived areas have tended to get a worse deal from the spending review. The cumulative result is likely to be that the infrastructure for delivering the big society will be hit hardest in deprived areas that are less able to deliver the big society vision. To my mind, where the Government’s big society reforms genuinely empower people and lead to a more responsible society, Labour should welcome them. Conversely, where their reforms do not empower people or lead to a more responsible society, Labour should oppose them.

Finally, I want to make a couple of points about Labour’s record. Between 2000-01 and 2007-08, the voluntary sector income grant grew by just over 40%, from £25 billion to £35.5 billion, of which individual giving accounted for more than 40%, and the voluntary sector work force grew by 124,000. Labour set up the Office of the Third Sector, and the current Leader of the Opposition was the country’s first ever Minister for the Third Sector. I think that we can argue that under Labour the third sector thrived. It appears that some define the big society as a national joke, but I have to say that I fear—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I call Rory Stewart.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Money) (No. 2)

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I gather that the Division bell did not go off in the Jubilee Room just now, and that some Members were not able to vote because they did not realise that the Division was happening

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I will ask Attendants to check the Division bells in the Jubilee Room. If they continue not to work, we will ensure that the Attendants call Divisions in the Jubilee Room separately, and I will clearly make allowances for that when I call for the Doors to be locked.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

Consideration of Lords amendments

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendment 31. If the House agrees to this amendment, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal.

Clause 1

Referendum on the alternative vote system

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 2.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to consider the following:

Lords amendments 3 to 7, 9 to 15, 18 and 21 to 26.

Lords amendment 27, and amendments (a) and (b) thereto.

Lords amendments 28 to 103.

Lords amendment 104, and amendment (a) thereto.

[Mr Harper]

It is no secret that the Bill has received extensive and lengthy debate both in this House and in the other place. It had eight days of debate in this House and the Lords Committee stage took place over the four months from November to February, taking 17 days and more than 110 hours. I think that, with one exception, it was the longest Committee stage of any Bill in my lifetime. I am glad that we finally now have the chance to consider the amendments made in the Lords.

The amendments in this first group encompass a range of changes that were made or accepted by the Government in the other place. I shall set out their effect and the Government’s overall approach briefly to make the best use of time available for debate. The Government have been consistently clear about the fact that we are prepared to make changes to the Bill where we believe they will make genuine improvements and will not undermine the key principles underpinning the Bill. Those principles are clear and we believe they are right. [Interruption.] Will the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) just calm down for a moment and let me proceed? The people should be given the chance to vote on the electoral system that is used to elect Members of Parliament and we should have a system for drawing up constituencies that better ensures that voters have an equal say wherever in the United Kingdom they live.

We have made changes to the Bill in response to points that were made in this House. On the referendum, we accepted changes to the wording of the question, and we also accepted amendments from the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform to clarify the regulation of spending by media outlets during the referendum campaign and to remove the power that has existed since the 1940s for a Minister to modify a boundary commission’s recommendations.

In the House of Lords, we accepted or made a number of amendments on both parts of the Bill. We accepted and made technically effective an amendment in part 1, which relates to the holding of the referendum, that would allow the date of the referendum to be moved if practical reasons made it impossible or impracticable to proceed on 5 May. We brought forward an amendment to part 2 on Report to change the consultation process, on the Boundary Commission’s recommendation, so that it includes public hearings. The hearings are intended to deal with the concern raised about the need for an oral element in the consultation process. We believe that they will provide an opportunity for the public and the parties to express their views, but in a way that will allow more effective engagement than the old, legalistic inquiry system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. There are about 11 minutes left, so brief speeches would be welcome.

[Mr Walker]

I will be extremely brief, because I come here naked, without a formal speech to give. All I would say in response to the two Front-Bench speeches that we have heard is that I think that the Lords did an absolutely magnificent job. The Bill has been rushed through this House in haste, and the Lords did exactly what they are meant to do, which is to act as a reforming and revising House. We will ignore some of their recommendations this evening at our peril.

The Prime Minister is not one for taking revenge against those who disagree with him, or perhaps delay his ambitions. I therefore disagreed with the shadow Minister when he quoted Sky News and said that the Prime Minister was gearing up great armies to swoop down on the House of Lords and duff them up a bit. However, I am concerned about the vague promises made by those on my side of the House about setting up a commission to review whether reducing the number of Members of Parliament to 600 is a good idea. This really should have been done by now, as part of the work of a far wider cross-party commission, bringing together all parts of the House to look at the proposals, because we are talking about fundamental constitutional reform. If such reform is to be successful, it will need to carry the support not just of Members of Parliament but of our constituents.

Our constituents will be concerned about what they are seeing, because in essence we propose to reduce the size of the House of Commons by roughly 10%. We do not propose to reduce the number of Ministers, and we are increasing the number of peers by 150. I am sure that some proposal or other will be made to address the question of the House of Lords—there might be a proposal for an elected upper House—but that could be kicked into the long grass and become a third-term aspiration for this coalition Government.

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[Mr Harper]

I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 16.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendment 19.

[Mr Harper]

The amendment would give the Boundary Commission the discretion to propose constituencies within an extended 15% range of the UK electoral quota in the event that a commission considered that exceptional local ties or geographical circumstances made it necessary for a viable constituency. That means that the plus or minus 5% rule could be extended to plus or minus 7.5% in the exceptional circumstances set out in the amendment.

The Government believe that the principle of “one vote, one value”, so that there are votes of more equal weight across the country, is paramount. That is the fundamental principle underpinning the Bill. It is not an abstract concept, nor is it, as some of our opponents like to say, about a slavish adherence to arithmetic. It is right for electors across the UK to have an equal say not just in who will be their local representative, but in who will form the Government of the day. For votes to have equal weight in a single member constituency system, the constituencies must contain a broadly equal number of electors.

The existing legislation that determines how the boundaries are to be drawn—the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986—also has that principle at its heart. Indeed, in one sense it could be argued that it involves a tighter rule, because it suggests that the Boundary Commission should aim for exact numerical equality, but the rules in that Act are contradictory and compromise the principle of equality. We see the large variations in the sizes of constituencies at the moment, which is why the Government’s proposals set a clear range for the number of electors that a constituency may contain.

I have already said that absolute equality is not practicable. There are a small number of specific exceptions, which recognise the practicalities of genuinely challenging geography: those are the two provisions that we inserted into the Bill at the beginning. I will not dwell on the subject of the Isle of Wight now; we will have an opportunity to do so later. More generally, the Bill allows for constituencies to vary by 5% either side of the quota. On the basis of the register data for 2009, that is about 8,000 electors. Within that range, commissions can take account of local circumstances.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

My general approach is that we should always seek to take decisions ourselves, rather than leave them to judges to take for us, because we are elected. However, the history of English common law and the way in which it has developed is such that judges have, by the precedents they have set, elaborated on that law. We have sometimes then decided to incorporate those interpretations into statute law, so there has been a constant relationship between the two. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) is muttering about Scottish law, but I am being very careful because I know much less about Scottish law than I do about English law, which also applies in Wales, so I am going to the edge of my knowledge and not a step further.

The hon. Member for North East Somerset is right that we will need, at some point, to put into statute law the relationship between this Chamber and an elected second Chamber, as we will want to establish that more firmly. Perhaps, as has happened in every other constitution that has been written in the world, special provision will be made for changing the constitution itself. In Germany, there has to be a vote of a certain majority in both Houses both before and after a general election. That was enforced by us in the writing of the German constitution after the second world war. In Spain, changes have been made to the constitution since the death of Franco, but the Spanish, too, can proceed only if there is a significant majority within the Cortes and the Senate. In short, my answer to the hon. Gentleman is yes.

In essence, my argument regarding new clause 3 is that it is not necessary and that it could be problematic for a new Government, because they might not be able to get their way even on a manifesto commitment that had been clearly laid down. The real danger concerns the extension of parliamentary terms—something that has always worried people in relation to the freedoms and rights of the British people, or rather the people of the United Kingdom. That is already protected in the Parliament Act, which will stand until we revise all these measures. Parliament has been extended in the past. That happened during the second world war when extensions were agreed on an annual basis. I am not sure whether that was voted on every year, but the hon. Member for North East Somerset might know.

Let me move to the new clause of the hon. Member for Stone. I note that the hon. Member for North East Somerset said that we have a choice between Scylla and Charybdis—he being Scylla and the hon. Member for Stone being Charybdis. My uncertain memory of Homer is that Odysseus chose to surrender a few sailors to Scylla rather than a whole ship to the whirlpool that was Charybdis, but I am in favour of Charybdis this afternoon.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. We are now going to the end of my knowledge, and I think it would be very useful if we returned to new clause 5.

[Chris Bryant]

Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, although I am not sure that we really have got to the edge of your knowledge; I think your knowledge is boundless, and consequently I agree with you. [Interruption.] The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons, is talking about the pillars of Hercules, which is a rather fine pub I have sometimes frequented in—well, north London somewhere.

The new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Stone seems quite sensible, because we believe that section 2 has a series of elements that, as the Clerk of the House has pointed out, are problematic. We think that because the provision has been put into statute rather than included in the Standing Orders of the House, there is a real danger that elements could be questioned in the courts, and one would then have a dramatic constitutional crisis. Consequently, we understand that, as the hon. Gentleman said, those elements are there entirely to bind together the coalition. We understand why the coalition would want to maintain that element, but we certainly do not believe that a future Government should be bound by it.

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that no Parliament is bound by its predecessor and no Parliament can bind its successor. However, there is one sense in which it can delay its successor, because it makes it have to re-legislate if it wants to take away a part of statute law. It seems to me that since it is clear that this piece of constitutional—

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[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Deputy Prime Minister to have abused the Members of the House of Lords in the form that he chose?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

That is most certainly not a point of order for me. I am sure that there are other ways in which the hon. Gentleman can express his views, and I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister—like the Minister who is present—will be well aware of what has just been said. Please, Mr Harper, continue.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think that I drew a distinction between certain Members of the other place and the other place in general, about which I have no complaint.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset explained very clearly the effect of his new clause 3, and he was concerned about changes to clause 1 being made using powers in the Parliament Act 1911. It is already the case—this is a subject on which I agree with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—that the Parliament Act cannot be used to push through legislation that extends the life of Parliaments. One hon. Member—I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash)—pointed out that because of the Bill’s provisions allowing the Prime Minister to vary the date of an election by up to two months in an emergency, we cannot use the Parliament Act to push this legislation through against the wishes of the upper House. However, the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset would, as the hon. Member for Rhondda said, also prevent this House from reducing the length of a Parliament without the agreement of the other place. It does not seem desirable to put that provision in place.

Section 2 of the Parliament Act 1911, to which my hon. Friend’s new clause refers, sets out important rules about the relationship between this House and the other place. Those rules have been in place for some time, and the Government certainly do not intend to start changing that relationship. It is already the case that we cannot lengthen a Parliament, and given what I have said, we do not want to start changing the Parliament Act as my hon. Friend’s new clause would.

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[Mr Jenkin]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it not the case that if there was an attempt to table a wrecking amendment, the Clerks would rapidly describe it as out of order and it would not be selected for debate?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

All I can say is that all the amendments and new clauses have been chosen in the right and proper way.

[Mr Harper]

Exactly; it is a very cunning new clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone put his finger on the point that an amendment simply to take away clause 2 would have been a wrecking amendment. The power of revival is the cunning disguise in which the new clause is wrapped.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) described clause 2 as a fig leaf. I do not agree with that characterisation, but even if the House agreed with it, I am not sure that hon. Members would be as keen to remove the fig leaf as my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex appeared to be. [Interruption.] No, that is what he said. He said that it was a fig leaf and that he wanted to remove it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone seemed to establish a new doctrine in his speech. He seemed to be suggesting that all Acts of Parliament should lapse at the end of a Parliament, just in case the new Parliament is of a different complexion and its Members disagree. He said that the House should not bind its successors. It is perfectly true that the House cannot bind its successors, because each successive Parliament can repeal Acts; that is the normal way. However, it is not the normal procedure for all Acts to lapse at the end of a Parliament, just in case the new Parliament disagrees with them.

The Government hope, although they cannot bind their successors, that the public and future Parliaments will find the arrangements in the Bill acceptable and will keep them in place. Future Parliaments are, of course, at liberty to change them. However, we do not think that there should be what my hon. Friend the Member for Stone described as a sunset clause to remove the powers. If clause 2 were removed as he suggested, it would effectively give back the power to the Prime Minister to dissolve Parliament at will. We have argued throughout the passage of the Bill that that would be undesirable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Cash]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. If you wish to press your new clause, Mr Cash, you will have an opportunity to do so later, after we debate the next group, which starts with new clause 4.

New Clause 4

Prorogation of Parliament

‘(1) Parliament can only be prorogued in accordance with this section.

(2) If the House of Commons resolves that Parliament should be prorogued, Parliament shall be prorogued at that time, or by declaration of the Speaker.

(3) The Speaker of the House of Commons shall not make such a declaration unless the House of Commons has passed a resolution directing him to do so on or before a specified date and time.

(4) Where Parliament is prorogued under subsection (2) above, the Speaker may by declaration prorogue it to an earlier or later day.

(5) The Prorogation Act 1867 is repealed.’.—(Chris Bryant.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Chris Bryant]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 14, page 2, line 5, clause 2, at end insert—

‘(aa) certifying whether or not the motion specified a polling day for such an election, and if so, the day specified in that motion,’.

Amendment 15, page 2, line 24, after ‘be’, insert—

‘(a) the day specified in a motion as certified under subsection (1)(aa) above, or, if no date is specified, (b)’.

Amendment 8, page 2, line 29, clause 3, leave out ‘17th’ and insert ‘25th’.

Amendment 9, page 2, line 39, at end insert

‘within 15 working days of the polling day’.

Amendment 2, page 4, line 4, schedule, leave out ‘“or dissolve”’ and insert

‘“prorogue or dissolve Parliaments nor”’.

Amendment 3, page 4, line 6, at end insert—

‘Meeting of Parliament Act 1797 (c. 127)

2A The Meeting of Parliament Act 1797 is repealed.’.

Amendment 4, page 4, line 8, leave out

‘“or dissolved” where it occurs second’

and insert

‘“unless it should be sooner prorogued or dissolved by the Crown, anything in the Succession to the Crown Act 1707 in any way notwithstanding”.’.

[Chris Bryant]

I wish to speak to new clause 4 and some of the other amendments in the group, which stand in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, the shadow Lord Chancellor and myself.

One of the arguments that the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister, the Minister and the Deputy Leader of the House have advanced in favour of the Bill is that it surrenders a hefty part of the royal prerogative that has been enjoyed by the Prime Minister, in that the Prime Minister will no longer be able to cut and run. That is, the Prime Minister will no longer be able to determine the date of the general election or be free to run the constitution—and, in particular, the electoral timetable—according to party political advantage.

Those of us who have supported fixed-term Parliaments for some time, and who made many speeches about them before the last general election, agree that that is an important step to take. We support the idea of fixed-term Parliaments. We note that there have been several occasions in the past when Prime Ministers have been tempted to call general elections because they have had poll leads, and when they have cut and run. There have been other occasions when Prime Ministers have decided not to do so, because they were fearful of the electorate. We believe that it makes far more sense for local authorities, which have to administer elections, and for the Boundary Commission and the whole paraphernalia of electoral law to have the clarity that comes from knowing, in general, except for extraordinary circumstances, when the next general election will be.

However, one element of prerogative power that the Government are not surrendering is the prerogative power of Prorogation—I shall have to be careful with my syllables in the next section of my speech. As I am sure all hon. Members know, Prorogation is a rather abstruse element of the way in which we do our business. It is an irony that it is still true that Parliament can neither sit nor choose not to sit without the say-so of the Crown. I use the term “the Crown” because in theory it is the monarch who decides, but in practice it is the monarch in consultation with the Privy Council, which means, to all intents and purposes, the Government of the day, and therefore the Prime Minister. That is laid down in a series of different elements of our constitutional settlement, but in particular, in the power of Prorogation, which lies, fairly and squarely, solely with the Crown and the Prime Minister.

It is still true that there is no requirement that a Parliament sit—except, one could argue, in so far as the provisions in the Bill of Rights determine that no money can be granted to the Crown unless it is expressly granted by Parliament, and that Parliament therefore has to meet at least once a year to agree the estimates. Similarly, one could argue that the provisions relating to not being able to have a standing army mean that Parliament has to meet every five years. A provision also exists stating that we cannot be without a Parliament for more than three years. However, I would argue—as the Social Democratic party-Liberal alliance used to argue very forcefully—that Parliament should have a permanent existence, except during those brief moments when it is dissolved.

Of course we still support the idea of having annual Sessions of Parliament, and there needs to be a means of ending each parliamentary Session. We also need a means of dissolving Parliament before a general election. However, the amendments that we have tabled today would mean that the power to decide to sit and not to sit would lie solely in the hands of this House and not in the hands of the Government. Under the current provision, Dissolution is effected by royal proclamation under the Great Seal, and the proclamation of Dissolution sometimes follows Prorogation and sometimes follows an Adjournment. Our proposal is that that proclamation and the date on which Parliament would next sit following a general election should not be decided solely by the Prime Minister, and that they should be fixed in statute, as they are in nearly every other constitution in the world.

This is especially true if we are moving towards what are being called fixed-term Parliaments but are actually fixed general election dates. It is important that the House should always know when it is next going to sit following a general election. That is why we have tabled amendment 9, which proposes that Parliament should sit

“within 15 working days of the polling day”.

That would apply whether it is an early general election or one that takes place on a fixed date, such as May 2015—or, as we would argue, May 2014. We have used the term “working days” because that term has been used throughout the Bill. There is one tiny element in the Bill in which the Government refer simply to “days” rather than “working days”, but they refused to accept our argument on that, and our amendment to change the wording was defeated. None the less, I think that it is better to be consistent throughout the Bill in the terms that are used.

The power of Prorogation is important not only at the end of a Parliament when there is a Dissolution and a general election; it is important also at the end of a Session, in that every element of parliamentary business is suspended. There are no further sittings, and all Bills that have been commenced fall, except those that have expressly been permitted to be carried over to the next Session. As I understand it, the only other exception relates to impeachment proceedings, which are able to continue from one Session to the next.

The power to prorogue is therefore a substantial one that the Government retain. I would argue that this is particularly important in relation to this Bill because the Government could use the power inappropriately, if it were to remain solely in their hands, if there had been a vote of no confidence in them. Let us say that the Government had opposed the vote of no confidence but lost it. There is a provision in the Bill that, in the following fortnight, a new Government would have to pass a motion of confidence. However, a motion of confidence can be agreed in the House only if Parliament is sitting. If the Government had decided to prorogue Parliament, there would be no opportunity for a new one to be formed. I can perfectly easily see a set of circumstances in which a Government, having lost a vote of confidence, would want to make sure that no other Government can be formed and therefore prorogue Parliament expressly to prevent an alternative Government, thereby triggering a general election.

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[Chris Bryant]

I detect a bit of a difference of view between my hon. Friend and myself here. I hate to say this, but I am rather more with the Deputy Leader of the House on this issue. My hon. Friend is right in saying that if a proportional system were introduced, a succession of hung Parliaments would be more likely. Consensus would rule the day and coalition Governments would be formed on a fairly regular basis. That is not absolutely certain, as it has not happened in some countries that have proportional representation. However, the alternative vote, which I shall be voting for—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) shouts out, “Shame”, but it expressly points out in “Erskine May” that shouting “Shame” is unparliamentary. I would not want to excoriate him on that basis. I am not quite sure on which page it says that, but I am sure he will find it, if he looks for it. [Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. It is my job to cite that authority, not the job of the hon. Member.

Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In view of the tragic news from Zurich and the sounds of celebration being carried on the chill eastward winds from Russia, has any approach been made to you, Sir, or to your office to disseminate that sad information throughout the Palace?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

The country is suffering sub-zero temperatures, towns and villages are being cut off, some people are isolated, airports are being closed, and I was wondering what piece of news could depress me more. I was wondering also which Member could bring that news to me, and I am not surprised that it is Mr Pound.

I am sure the whole House wishes Russia well in holding the World cup and to send its thanks and gratitude to the presentation team of the United Kingdom, with His Royal Highness Prince William, the Prime Minister, David Beckham and others. They did as best as they possibly could, and we are all somewhat depressed that football is not yet coming home, but we look forward to the day when it does. This is clearly not a point of order for the House, though.

[Andrew Bridgen]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I point out to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) that if he were slightly more generous with taking interventions, there would not be the number of comments from a sedentary position to which he objects so vehemently.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

That sounds to me like a continuation of the debate.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. As is self-evident, a lot of Members wish to catch my eye in this debate. I have therefore decided to introduce an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. We will hear from the Front-Bench speakers next. They have agreed to show time restraint. The debate from the Back Benches will then resume.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

On a point of order, Mr Evans. At lunchtime today I was sitting in the Terrace cafeteria and, for the second time in a fortnight, I was unable to hear the Division bells at all. There was nothing to indicate that a vote was taking place. Can you facilitate Members’ ability to vote if they are sitting in that area, perhaps by asking the Badge Messengers to inform them that a vote is taking place while the problem is sorted out?

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Thank you for that point of order. I must say that I have taken a number of points of order in a similar vein since taking the Chair on 8 June, and this is clearly worrying for Members as well as irritating for the Chair. I will instruct that the matter be fully investigated, not just in the area that the hon. Lady has spoken about, but throughout the parliamentary estate. Clearly, it could affect the outcome of a vote. In the short term, I ask that, every time there is a Division today, a messenger goes particularly to that part of the House to ensure that Members are made aware that a Division is taking place.

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Bill to be considered tomorrow

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I now have to announce the results of the Division deferred from a previous day. In the Division on the Question relating to the Scottish Parliament, the Ayes were 317 and the Noes were 212, so the Ayes have it.

[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 33, page 1, line 22, leave out from ‘if’ to end of clause and add

‘on an address presented to Her Majesty by the House of Commons praying that a day be the polling day for an early parliamentary general election, Her Majesty appoints this day by proclamation to be the polling day for such an election.

(2) No motion shall be made for such an address except by the Prime Minister acting with the agreement of—

(a) the Leader of the Opposition; and

(b) each member of the House of Commons who at the time of the motion being made is the registered leader of a registered party that received more than 20 per cent. of the total votes cast at the previous parliamentary general election.

(3) An early parliamentary general election shall not otherwise take place.

(4) Subsection (1) applies for the purposes of the Timetable in rule 1 in Schedule 1 to the Representation of the People Act 1983.

(5) In this section—

“Leader of the Opposition” means the person who is the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons for the purposes of section 2 of the Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975;

“registered leader”, in relation to a party, means the person registered as that party’s leader in accordance with section 24 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000;

“registered party” means a party registered in a register of political parties maintained by the Electoral Commission in accordance with section 23 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.’.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 21, page 2, line 2, leave out ‘early’ and insert ‘immediate’.

Amendment 4, page 2, leave out lines 3 to 7.

Amendment 34, in clause 3, page 2, line 28, leave out ‘(6)’.

Amendment 35, in clause 4, page 3, line 15, leave out ‘(6)’.

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[Mr Straw]

It is the first time that I have ever been thanked for anything by a member of the Scottish National party. I hope that next April and May it says on every leaflet how deeply grateful the SNP is for the possibility and opportunity to serve in a Scottish Government and to enjoy all the rewards that have come its way from the money that the British people, of all parties, have provided.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had some rules. Could he have another rule, which is to speak to the amendments in the group?

[Mr Straw]

I am sorry that I digressed, Mr Evans.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tristram Hunt]

Is the hon. Gentleman as shocked as I am by the new constitutional principle that we are hearing from the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills—that the manifestos upon which individual Members of Parliament were elected no longer mean anything, because the coalition agreement somehow supersedes everything that they were elected to stand for?

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Order. That is not part of the amendments before us, so Mr Cash, could you restrict yourself to the amendments, please?

[Mr Cash]

What I am saying, Mr Evans, is that the clause is being introduced without a mandate, using Parliament and patronage to undermine Parliament itself, not only now but in future. The voters, who have reposed their trust in us as MPs, are being severely damaged by what is being done today. As for the future, to quote T. S. Eliot’s “Burnt Norton”:

“Time present and time past

Are both perhaps present in time future

And time future contained in time past.

If all time is eternally present

All time is unredeemable.”

So is this act of constitutional vandalism.

My amendment 4 is based on a simple point of principle, namely that a motion can be passed by a simple majority of one, as has been the case from time immemorial—from the very inception of our parliamentary process in what is sometimes described as the “mother of Parliaments”. That is now being changed in a manner that will seriously alter the method whereby a Government may fall.

The merits of the various amendments, such as amendment 33 and my amendment 4, may differ. However, mine, which has been supported—without my encouragement, I have to say—by the Leader of the Opposition and therefore by the Opposition themselves, has the merit of simplicity and maintaining the status quo. Why have I tabled this amendment? It is because I object to the new-fangled idea that an early election would result from a motion, perhaps proposed by the Opposition, any MP or even the Government themselves, that requires—this is contrary to all constitutional precedent and history since our Parliament first sat representing the electors of this country—the support of two thirds or more of those eligible to vote as Members of Parliament. In other words, we are talking about seats and not the persons present in the House of Commons. That is a profound and dangerous doctrine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

On a point of order, Mr Amess. Have you have received any indication from the Home Secretary that she might be coming to the House tonight to make a statement on whether she believes that police tactics outside the House are proportionate? Many hundreds of students and schoolchildren have been kettled for more than four hours and, according to the police, will be out there for several more hours in the freezing cold. Whatever one thinks about the student protest, holding people against their will for no reason is neither proportionate nor effective.

[The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess)]

The whole House has heard what the hon. Lady has said, particularly those on the Treasury Bench, but that is not a point of order.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I beg to move amendment 11, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘7 May 2015’ and insert ‘1 May 2014’.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 7, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2015’ and insert ‘2013’.

Amendment 8, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘fifth’ and insert ‘third’.

Amendment 12, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘fifth’ and insert ‘fourth’.

Amendment 32, page 1, line 9, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

‘(4) In determining the polling day for a parliamentary general election under subsection (3) above, no account shall be taken of any early parliamentary general election the polling day for which was appointed under section 2.’.

Amendment 13, page 1, line 13, leave out ‘“fifth” there were substituted “fourth”’ and insert ‘“fourth” there were substituted “third”’.

Amendment 9, page 1, line 13, leave out ‘fifth’ and insert ‘third’.

Amendment 10, page 1, line 13, leave out ‘“fourth”’ and insert ‘“second”’.

New clause 4—Devolved legislature elections—

‘(1) A devolved legislature election may not take place on the same day as a United Kingdom parliamentary general election.

(2) If a devolved legislature election is scheduled to take place on the same day as a United Kingdom parliamentary general election, then the date of the poll for the devolved legislature general election must vary by—

(a) not less than two months, and

(b) not more than twelve months and one week before or after the United Kingdom parliamentary general election date.

(3) The appropriate authority shall make provision by order to vary the date of the devolved legislature general election, subject to agreement by the relevant devolved legislature.

(4) The following election to that devolved legislature will take place on the first Thursday in May in the fourth calendar year following the polling day for the previous election.

(5) A devolved legislature election is an election to the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly.’.

New clause 5—Varying of elections by the National Assembly for Wales—

‘(1) Section 4 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (“Power to vary date of ordinary general election”) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1) after “May”, insert “, subject to subsections (1A) and (1B)”.

(4) After subsection (1) insert—

“(1A) If the scheduled date for a National Assembly for Wales ordinary general election is the same date as for a United Kingdom parliamentary general election, the National Assembly of Wales general election must be held—

(a) not less than two months, and

(b) not more than twelve months and one week before or after the United Kingdom parliamentary general election.

(1B) The Secretary of State for Wales shall by order provide for the date of the poll of the National Assembly for Wales ordinary general election, with the agreement of the National Assembly for Wales, subject to subsection (1A).”.’.

Clause stand part.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I wish to speak also to amendments 12 and 13 in my name and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), the Leader of the Opposition and his hon. Friends, as well as new clauses 4 and 5. The amendments go to the crux of the Bill—the establishment of a specific period between elections and the date on which we hold the next UK parliamentary elections.

My party is in favour of fixed-term Parliaments, for many of the reasons outlined on Second Reading. A fixed-term Parliament removes a Prime Minister’s ability to seek the dissolution of Parliament for pure political gain, taking away that significant incumbency advantage—more of which later in my speech. It would end speculation about the timing of the next election and a near-obsession with opinion polls and psephologists about when an election might be called. It provides stability for the political programme, as we have found with the One Wales agreement in Wales, a four-year term, where parties understand what can and cannot be achieved within the required legislative time frame—even in our case where the byzantine workings of legislative competence orders have held up the progress of our law-making, denying us prompt action to solve our problems. By providing a settled timetable, fixed-term Parliaments provide a firm basis for electoral administration, taking away the shock of a snap election and giving a more generous timetable to ensure participation in the voting process.

However, I cannot understand the Government’s reasoning behind the insistence on a five-year legislative term, either in this parliamentary term or in the future. To be perfectly honest, there does not seem to be any reason. The Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government have consistently failed to provide a good reason why the next election should be held in May 2015, not in May 2014. On Second Reading, the Deputy Prime Minister, with bizarre Liberal Democrat logic, presumably taken from a “Focus” leaflet bar graph, claimed that a five-year Parliament would probably amount in practice to a legislative working term of four years. As many hon. Members will already know, the five-year maximum term was implemented in 1911, but even that was introduced with the expectation that the working parliamentary period would probably be four years—a period in which, as Lord Asquith said at the time, a Government had either the political mandate from the previous election or the unwillingness to commit to unpopular decisions ahead of the next election.

Four years—the length of time between elections for the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the London Assembly, the London mayoral elections and local authority, community and even parish council elections in all four parts of the UK—is quite clearly and obviously the norm for the electoral cycle in the nation states.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

The right hon. Lady knows that I am in full agreement with her. It was very important that those issues were discussed. It was a disgrace that the Secretary of State refused that request.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Order. We are moving on to Bills that have already passed through the House. Please can we focus on the amendments before us?

[Jonathan Edwards]

These changes will have a clear impact as electors find themselves not merely with the added burden of an extra piece of paper to complete, as they will in the clashing elections next May and the alternative vote referendum, but voting for different constituency locations. I am proud to serve on the Welsh Affairs Committee in my first term in Parliament. The Committee received evidence from a number of organisations on these potential problems, and reported on them in our first publication of this Session, entitled “'The implications for Wales of the Government’s proposals on constitutional reform”. We heard, for example, testimony from Lewis Baston, senior research fellow with Democratic Audit. He said that

“the elections for Westminster and the Assembly would be taking place on different systems on the same day, and more complicatedly on two sets of boundaries which will hardly ever correlate with each other.”

Philip Johnson told our Committee that the coincidence of elections could have “horrendous” consequences in 2015.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Williams]

The capacity of the Welsh media to respond has been severely hampered, whether we look at the position of Sianel Pedwar Cymru or the loss of pluralism—[Interruption.] It is S4C, the Welsh language media—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. A Member who is making an intervention cannot take an intervention.

[Mr Williams]

I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker.

My point is that the Welsh media are in a parlous state, so we cannot take for granted their capacity to respond to the UK media at election time.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Mann]

My hon. Friend mentions the cost and expense of MPs. With an independent body setting MPs’ salaries, has he considered the certainty that if the Bill proceeds into law, it will inevitably increase the salary of MPs? The argument will be put—and doubtless accepted—that there is more work per MP, and that there should therefore be a certain rate for the job. Therefore, this Bill will not cut pay; it will in fact increase the pay of MPs.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. We are now clearly straying from the amendments before us.

[Geraint Davies]

I am grateful for your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker. What we are talking about is the combination of polls and the confusion that this could cause. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) suggested in his intervention that combining the polls should require extra money. I completely agree with that, and was simply making the point that the Boundary Commission for Wales has already been given £1.9 million just for redrawing the boundaries, let alone for carrying out the work on the political machinery, which will be enormous. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) has simply made the point that those enormous costs will dwarf any prospective saving and that, in fact, there will probably be no saving at all.

I will bring my comments to a close. [Hon. Members: “More!”] Hon. Members should not encourage me, because I might end up reading the whole of the Welsh Affairs Committee report.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Not a chance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

I will attempt to be reasonably concise. It is worth returning to the amendments, which are about the combination of polls, and reminding ourselves—and the literally dozens of people who I am sure are still watching on the BBC Parliament channel, after our deliberations so far—why we are discussing combining the referendum in the Bill with the Welsh Assembly, Northern Ireland Assembly, Scottish Parliament and local government elections.

The only reason we are doing that is down to one man, who has been completely invisible during our deliberations, namely the Deputy Prime Minister. The only reason we are discussing this issue is that the Deputy Prime Minister is convinced that his best chance of winning the referendum on the introduction of the alternative vote will be if it takes place on the same day as the elections to the devolved Assemblies and the local government elections. As the amendments in the group show, this is not a matter of finance, although that argument is sometimes put forward. It is nothing to do with that; rather, it is entirely to do with a belief that the alternative vote is more likely to be supported in a referendum if it is held on the same day as those other elections.

In that sense, this is one of the most surreal debates in which I have ever participated in the House of Commons, because the Deputy Prime Minister will not come here himself to make that point. Instead he sends along the Parliamentary Secretary, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who comes along to make the case, even though he does not himself believe that the alternative vote should be passed into law. In fact, this is the second time in one day that he has had to come forward to promote Liberal Democrat policy in the House. After the duffing up that he got in the Tea Room after the first time, I hope that he is a bit safer now.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. We are talking about the combination of polls, not the Deputy Prime Minister. I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman now directed himself to the amendments before us.

[Kevin Brennan]

Of course, Mr Deputy Speaker. The point that I was making was that the very reason for the amendments that are before us, about the combination of polls, is to do with the beliefs of one person, who has put up the Minister, as it were, to come along and defend those amendments.

A lot has been made of the potential confusion that could arise. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe), whom I commend for taking a lot of interest in these proceedings. I take her point about American elections; in fact, my wife is an American citizen and still votes in American elections. We get the very lengthy ballot papers that people receive through the post in California, and which do indeed combine polls on many different issues on one day. I am less disturbed by my constituents’ ability to distinguish between different issues on the same day than I am by the contempt that the Government have shown. I am disturbed by the contempt shown for the devolved Administrations by he who must not be named—I am not going to mention his name again, for fear of upsetting you, Mr Deputy Speaker—when, although he represents a party that claims to be a party of devolution, he completely ignores the wishes of the devolved Administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Mearns]

I’m getting there.

It is no wonder that—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I am also a little concerned that the hon. Gentleman is going wide of the subject of the combination of polls. Perhaps he could stick to the confusion that he spoke about earlier. This sounds a bit like a speech for a Third Reading debate.

[Ian Mearns]

Mr Deputy Speaker, the unfairness to which I want to address my remarks mainly relates to town and city dwellers. I am not for one moment implying that the people whom I speak of do not exist in the countryside; they do, of course, but not in anywhere near the same kind of numbers as in our towns and cities. The calculations that the Government have made in drawing up their criteria totally disregard the 3.5 million people who are not registered to vote or to take part in the referendum—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. Yet again, I think that the hon. Gentleman has not really paid due attention to the amendments before him. He is entering into a much wider debate. I ask him to look again at the subject of the combination of polls, please.

[Ian Mearns]

Not only will those people be unable to vote in the elections; they will also be unable to vote in the referendum on our voting system. There are many reasons why people will be unable to enfranchise themselves, and it is important to have regard for such people. Some might be in debt and trying to escape from their creditors. Others might be trying to avoid violent loan sharks. They will not be enfranchised to take part in a referendum because they are trying to escape from the people who are pursuing them. Some might be victims of domestic violence hiding from violent former partners—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can help me a little. Which amendment is he speaking to?

[Ian Mearns]

Mr Deputy Speaker, I am happy to return to this matter on Third Reading, but there are some important points about the Bill that need to be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

Yes, of course. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to confirm that. I will write to the hon. Member for Foyle, copy my reply to the hon. Member for Rhondda and place it in the Library for the benefit of all hon. Members. [Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. A number of private conversations are going on, and I am finding it difficult to listen to the Minister. If Members want to have a chat, will they please go outside the Chamber?

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I have just one further point. The hon. Member for Foyle also raised an issue about whether the language on the forms was clear enough about spoiled ballot papers. The form mentions the need to return all the spoiled papers, but that might leave some ambiguity, so I will reflect further on it. There are two things worth saying. We have an opportunity to deal with the issue, but the hon. Gentleman will know that at an earlier stage of our proceedings, the House agreed to an amendment that gave the Electoral Commission permission to make the forms—but not the ballot papers—more accessible for disabled people and easier for voters to understand. To be clear, if, after the Bill receives its Royal Assent, as I hope it does, any further issues are raised as to whether the forms are as clear as they could be, the Electoral Commission will have the power to make those changes to facilitate accessibility or make the forms easier to use.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 7, page 6, line 10, at end insert ‘, and

(c) the number of electors casting a vote in the referendum is equal to or greater than 40 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote.’.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 197, page 6, line 10, at end insert

‘, and

(c) the number of electors casting a vote in favour of the answer “Yes” is equal to or greater than 25 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote.’.

Amendment 8, page 6, line 12, after ‘“No”,’, insert

‘or if the number of electors casting a vote in the referendum is less than 40 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote,’.

Amendment 198, page 6, line 12, after ‘“No”’, insert

‘or if the number of electors casting a vote in favour of the answer “Yes” is fewer than 25 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote’.

[Mr Cash]

The question of threshold is the second most important issue after the question of whether we agree to this Bill on Second or Third Reading. We have Third Reading to come, and I admit to having voted with some enthusiasm against the Bill on Second Reading, as did a number of my colleagues. We did so because of our inherent objection to the principles that underlie it. I objected to the alternative vote in the wash-up, and I have no reservations about my objections to it. Indeed, I have consistently objected to variants of the proportional representation system ever since I entered the House.

That principled objection has been adopted by Members throughout 150 years of our parliamentary democracy. Many, including Gladstone, Disraeli and even Lloyd George, have objected to the whole idea of undermining the first-past-the-post system. I am reminded of what Disraeli wrote in his novel “Coningsby”. At the time of the Reform Act and the repeal of the corn laws, he wrote in a brief chapter of just one-and-a-half pages:

“There was a great deal of shouting about Conservative principles, but the awkward question naturally arose—what are the principles we are supposed to conserve?”

I believe this Bill is inherently contrary to Conservative principles for the reasons I have given.

Indeed, I would go further and say that I fear that we have not really heard the full reality— the actualité—of what is going on here. Failure in that regard makes it all the more necessary to have a threshold, because if we do not tell the British people the entire truth, which Churchill said we had to do, I fear they will be misled in the referendum campaign. My belief that a threshold is necessary is based in part on the fact that at least that would enable a percentage of the population to be the determining factor as to whether or not the vote is valid.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Nigel Evans Excerpts

Monday 25th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment (a) to new clause 20, leave out subsection (1) and insert—

(1) Where the date of the poll for a local authority election in England is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together.’.

Amendment (b) to new clause 20, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

(4) Where the date of the poll for a Northern Ireland Assembly Election is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together.’.

Amendment (c) to new clause 20, in subsection (8), leave out from ‘“local referendum in England”’ to the second “Local Government Act 2000;”

Amendment (d) to new clause 20, in subsection (8), leave out from ‘“Northern Ireland local election”’ to “Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962”.

Government new schedule 2—Combination of polls: England.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 11, in sub-paragraph (1) leave out ‘15th’ and insert ‘28th’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 2, after paragraph 12, insert—

‘Absent voter application

12A An application under regulation 51(4)b of the Representation of the People (England and Wales) Regulations 2001, SI 2001/341, for an absent vote must state whether it is made for parliamentary elections, local government elections, referendums or all of them.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 2, leave out paragraph 15 and insert—

‘15 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The other ballot papers used for any relevant election shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (d) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

‘(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the relevant elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 18, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and (2) and insert—

(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to those used for other relevant elections taking place on the same day.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or relevant election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 27, in sub-paragraph (1), leave out

‘If the counting officer thinks fit, the same copy of the register of electors may’

and insert

‘Separate registers of electors must’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 27, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) to (4).

Amendment (i) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 40, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 2, after paragraph 43 insert—

‘Priority in counting of votes

43A Counting officers must give priority to the counting of ballots cast in—

(a) the respective elections to the Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales devolved administrations, and

(b) local council elections in each part of the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment (k) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (l) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (m) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (n) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (o) to new schedule 2, in Part 2, in the second column, in the entry relating to Regulation 71, leave out ‘eleventh’ and insert ‘fifteenth’.

Government new schedule 3—Combination of polls: Wales.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

"(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and the Assembly elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for the Assembly elections.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or Assembly election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 3, leave out paragraph 18 and insert—

“18 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The other ballot papers used for the Assembly elections shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 45, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 47, in sub-paragraph (1)(d), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, sub-paragraph (1), at the end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Government new schedule 4—Combination of polls: Scotland.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 4, paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the Scottish parliamentary election must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 4, paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for the Scottish parliamentary elections.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or parliamentary election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 4, leave out paragraph 18 and insert—

“18 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The ballot papers used for constituency or regional ballots shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 42, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 46, in sub-paragraph (1)(d), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (1) (a)insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (1)(b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Government new schedule 5—Combination of polls: Northern Ireland.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 5, leave out paragraph 12 and insert—

“12 (1) The Chief Electoral Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The ballot papers used for any relevant elections shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Electoral Officer.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 14, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the relevant elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (c ) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for other relevant elections taking place on the same day.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or relevant election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 31, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 32, in sub-paragraph (1)(c), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 33, at the end of sub-paragraph (1)(a), insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 33, at the end of sub-paragraph (1)(b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3)(a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 48, sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

[Chris Bryant]

On a point of order, Mr Evans. This is a large group of amendments, schedules and a new clause; indeed, it constitutes some 120 pages of the amendment paper. I need a little clarity about when we come to vote on amendments and about whether, if we were to agree to the new clause, it would then be possible to vote on amendments to the schedule later.

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman]

It is all dependent on how long this particular set of new clauses and schedules are talked to. Clearly, if we get to them before the knife is reached at 11 o’clock, they will be taken with the amendments, but that changes if we go beyond 11 o’clock.

[Mr Harper]

Encouragingly, the hon. Member for Rhondda took rather less time speaking to the previous new clause than he took last week. That may be a step forward and perhaps we may indeed—

--- Later in debate ---

[Margaret Curran]

This is not a nationalist point, and I hope that the coalition does not dismiss the feelings to which I have referred as the marginal voice of nationalism in Scotland. The view is widespread throughout Scotland, and mainstream parties such as mine also hold it. However, I am concerned that in response to the question from the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), the Minister seemed to imply that, because the Scottish Parliament does not have responsibility for the elections at the moment, it is not a key stakeholder in the ongoing discussions—

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Order. This intervention is longer than some of the speeches that I have made in this House—

[Margaret Curran]

rose—

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Please resume your seat.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Evans: I had got the hon. Lady’s point. I am not trying to minimise her concern, but I note that none of the devolved Parliaments or Assemblies has passed any formal motions or resolutions expressing that view to this House.