EU Customs Union and Draft Withdrawal Agreement: Cost

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2018 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

There is a Budget next Monday, and it will be for the Chancellor to set out the spending settlement for Government Departments.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

Will the Minister advise the patients of the Golden Jubilee Hospital in Clydebank in my constituency how patient they have got to be to have medicine regulation while Recardio is taking out its health clinical trials for new heart medicines?

[John Glen]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very sensible point about the urgency of securing a deal across lots of areas of our country, including the health service, and that is what the Government are engaged in seeking to resolve.

Business of the House

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Thursday 11th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Paul Maynard]

It is a pleasure to encounter the hon. Gentleman again; I can only assume from how often I see him in the Chamber that he is doughty attendee at all Question Times, and he raises some important issues. He will be aware that our 25-year environment plan is forthcoming, and that is the obvious vehicle by which to ensure that we address many of the concerns he rightly raises.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

Tonight, Clydebank Asbestos Group is celebrating the opening of its new headquarters in West Dunbartonshire, where it will continue its work of 25 years to offer support to those suffering from and seeking compensation for asbestos-related conditions such as pleural plaques. Does the hon. Gentleman not only join me in congratulating the group, but agree that it is time the Government made time to debate whether those living with pleural plaques in England and Wales receive the same compensation as that given by the Holyrood Parliament in Scotland to those suffering from pleural plaques more than 10 years ago?

[Paul Maynard]

I very much support what the hon. Gentleman has to say and congratulate the local organisation that provides that support in his part of Scotland. I hear his case for a debate and urge him to consider an Adjournment debate on the issue to allow the Minister responsible to explain what we are doing here in England.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 19th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Kirsty Blackman]

The Scottish Government’s new starter rate of 19%, rather than 20%, for the first £2,000 that people earn is really positive. It is an incredibly progressive taxation measure, and it is something that the UK Government cannot claim; it is something that the Scottish Government are doing.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

If Conservative Members wish to debate the progressive taxation system introduced by the Scottish Government, maybe they should stand for the Scottish Parliament.

Economy and Jobs

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Thursday 29th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I am glad that, in this debate on the economy, we are mentioning the single market at last, but what about the digital single market in which we are building a future? The innovation required for small and medium-sized businesses will be thwarted if this Government withdraw us not only from the single market, but from the digital single market.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I understand that the digital single market has the potential to create massive revenues for the nations of the UK. It would be a travesty if we were not to remain a part of that.

We need a UK Government who will tackle gender inequality properly. We eagerly await the proposed legislation on this, and we will press the Government to ensure that it is incredibly robust. The Scottish National party has led the way on this: in Scotland, we have a gender-balanced Cabinet; and in Westminster, we have a gender-balanced leadership team. To overcome gender inequality, this Government must tackle the structural causes of discrimination that are so embedded in our culture.

--- Later in debate ---

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

I want to highlight four aspects of the Queen’s Speech that are particularly welcome. It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint); with my first point, I want to strike a consensual note and agree with her. We need to continue investment in the nation’s infrastructure. I was particularly pleased that the Queen’s Speech included a recommitment to legislate for the full network of HS2. To stop the project after part 1 would be a false economy. If we cannot move our people and goods around quickly, efficiently and safely, both within these isles and in order to connect with our key markets overseas, we will lose out to our competitors, who are investing heavily in infrastructure.

I agree that it is about not just investment in London and north-south investment, but east-west investment. My passion for east-west communications lies a little further south than the right hon. Lady’s. I want to see the early completion of the east-west rail line that will connect my constituency to Oxford and Cambridge and will form an important part of the nation’s rail infrastructure. That infrastructure will rebalance the economic growth around the country that we all want to see, and I welcome the Government’s commitment to that in the Queen’s Speech.

Related to that is my second point, which is about the welcome commitment to a modern industrial strategy. We had the White Paper before the general election and we must ensure that the UK is a world leader in fast-emerging new technologies. Of particular interest to me is the intelligent mobility market. The Transport Systems Catapult in my constituency forecasts that that market will be worth £90 billion by 2025, and we must ensure that we get a large slice of it if we are to maintain our competitive edge in the world.

That policy and many others like it link to a lot of other areas. We need to invest heavily in our skills agenda because we are not producing enough young people with the necessary skills. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman) said, that is the welcome second pillar of the industrial strategy.

The world of work is going to change. Many jobs that are currently done by people will be carried out by machines in the not-too-distant future. We urgently need to reskill our workforce to ensure that we can take advantage of new technologies and give people the jobs of the future. If we do not, we will face serious social challenges.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

If we retrofit new technology on old systems, we create a double problem for the future. How will the Government deal with that? Will they retrofit to the past, or will they look to places such as Estonia or Japan, which were building new and efficient systems nearly 50 years ago while we were living in the dark ages?

House of Lords Reform and Size of the House of Commons

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

On 14 January, I rose to introduce an Adjournment debate on this very issue, and I could easily reiterate the points that I articulated to the House then. Well, for the avoidance of doubt, I will and I will take great pleasure in it. All that has changed since we last discussed reform of the unelected, unaccountable House of Lords is that there are more of them—more party donors, more party hacks, less openness, less transparency, and more ermine.

At the same time, the reviews of the boundary commissions—yes, there is more than one—have sought to reduce further the number of elected Members to this House of Commons. While this House is reduced in number and relevance, the House of Lords, at its present velocity of expansion, will soon exceed the National People’s Congress of China. It has already exceeded the size of the European Parliament, which is directly elected by more than 400 million European citizens. It seems that we are taking back control and handing it on a plate to the barons and baronesses of the unelected upper Chamber. At least on the SNP Benches, we have spoken and will continue to speak with one voice. In our manifesto at the general election, we placed our proposal before the entire community of Scotland. “Abolish it”, we said and we won.

If we as Members are to work effectively and with electoral legitimacy—

[Michael Gove]

rose—

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

Forget it. The right hon. Gentleman can sit right down.

If we are to work with electoral legitimacy, Britain’s upper Chamber should resemble less the National People’s Congress of China and more the revising and advisory chamber of the people’s Parliament of a 21st century liberal democracy.

Let us turn now to the hope of many Members of this House—a hope that is shared by my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who should wear with pride his title of leading abolitionist—that any future reform of the upper Chamber should not only consider its size, but limit it and remove with haste its ability as an unelected and unaccountable Chamber to generate legislation [Interruption.] Members should listen; they might learn something. Once again, let me state that this is an affront to my constituents and an aberration at the heart of the British state.

I have previously likened the antics of the previous Government to a “Carry On” movie. Their antics had the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) cast as the arch-villain, Citizen Camembert, and the former Prime Minister as the good cop and leading man, the Black Fingernail. I do hope that the new cast of actors are less like the Duke de Pommefrites. That said, however, we may end up with Citizen Bidet, and we all know where that ends—down the cludgie.

I continue to believe, in this parliamentary term at least, that this aspiration will probably be a lost cause given that the hierarchy of the Conservative party—and even those punted to the Back Benches—has a long-term love affair with the upper Chamber. Over the previous Parliament, 200 unelected and unaccountable peers were added to the Lords. Even the new First Lord of the Treasury has appointed 16 new Members, 15 of whom are Tories.

Of the peerage, let me turn again, as I did on 14 January, to a certain cadre. I will be louder this time, because they did not seem to hear me the first time. I am talking about the archbishops and bishops of the established Church of England. Many have likened their position to that of the theocrats of the Islamic Republic of Iran. My direct challenge is this—

[Michael Gove]

rose—

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

No, sit down, son. I have told you once and I will not tell you again.

Those bishops and archbishops have no place in the governance of the nation of Scotland. They have no right to vote, if such a thing should occur, on the civic or legislative life of our nation. Let me make myself clear. It would be easy for me to vent frustration, but I shall make one call tonight, which is to abolish it. Listen to what the nation of Scotland said at the last general election: get rid of them.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Small Charitable Donations and Childcare Payments Bill

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jane Ellison]

Text messages can, as my hon. Friend knows, be gift aided, so we do not expect problems in that regard, but the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), will seek to respond more fully on those points at the end of the debate.

The final change proposed in the Bill is simplifying the rules on the top-ups that charities can receive on donations that they receive in their community buildings. Those rules were designed to ensure fairness and parity of treatment for charities structured in different ways. Without those rules, some charities are entitled to hundreds of thousands of pounds more than others simply because of differences in their historical structures. The gift aid small donations scheme is particularly well used by local churches. That was made clear by the Archbishops Council, which recently noted that in 2014 parishes could claim record levels of gift aid, with a significant part of the increase arising from the use of the gift aid small donations scheme. We want churches to continue to benefit from the valuable extra income provided by the small donations scheme, but it is important that the scheme continues to deliver the policy intention of providing fair and equal outcomes regardless of structure. The Bill will therefore address an anomaly in the original legislation.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I support the Bill, and I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation, but does she accept that the majority of charities, especially in my constituency, are small and rely solely for governance on volunteers? There has been a reduction in volunteer numbers across the United Kingdom. For many the Bill does not go far enough in promoting equal access to fundraising opportunities for charities that do not rely on staff.

[Jane Ellison]

Perhaps that is something that we can look at in more detail in Committee.

These are important simplifications. Throughout the consultation, we received supportive comments from charities, as demonstrated in the quote I gave earlier. There are always additional asks, and we would all want to be open to ideas about how we can further support charities. However, we think that the measures that we have introduced in the Bill are important next steps to make it easier for charities of all sizes.

Commonwealth War Graves Commission

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Westminster Hall

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) on securing this debate. I hope that my short contribution will go some way to meeting his objective of recognising the Commonwealth War Graves Commission’s valuable contribution to upholding the memory of those who died in the service of their country during the two world wars and other conflicts.

Appropriately commemorating those who died in service, the majority of whom were younger than most parliamentarians, is the least that we can do, and I pay tribute to the commission’s staff, who work so tirelessly in maintaining the cemeteries and memorials. The scale of their work, as everyone knows, is enormous, with memorials situated in more than 23,000 locations in 154 countries, commemorating more than 1.7 million members of the Commonwealth forces who died. It is testament to the expertise and professionalism of the staff that those memorials are kept in such good condition.

More than 1,275 sites are maintained by Commonwealth War Graves Commission staff in Scotland alone, and there are eight such cemeteries in my constituency of West Dunbartonshire to mark those from my community who died during conflict. The local community has a strong and deep link to those cemeteries and memorials, and it regularly pays tribute to the members who lost their lives, and to their families, either through official engagements or through personal moments of reflection.

The sheer numbers of those killed during the conflicts brings home the horrifying fact that every family would have been affected by loss and that every community would have lost generations. Such loss not only has a psychological impact; the physical loss of so many young people led to the decimation of local communities. Ensuring that the memorials are properly maintained not only is a mark of respect to the fallen but provides a lasting historical legacy for generations to come. It is only through providing future generations with a connection to the past and to the impact of war that we can hope that they will never experience the trauma of war.

When discussing the impact of war and how we can learn from the past, it is also fundamentally important to remember the civilians who lost their lives, as well as the service personnel who died on active duty. In this Parliament I was recently given the honour of marking the 75th anniversary of the Clydebank blitz and of commemorating the 528 people who lost their lives over two nights. It was the first time that the Clydebank blitz had been acknowledged in this place, and through such events future generations are given a more rounded education of where we have come from and where we are going.

We must always look to link the past with the present. I hope that this debate will go some way to raising awareness of the remit and dedication of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to provide a long-lasting legacy for the fallen. With that in mind, I welcome the commission’s work and its attempts to engage with local communities, thus ensuring that schools and community groups across these islands physically visit the memorials. Although that is important, I am impressed by the commission’s efforts to engage beyond the physical memorials by using new technology and applications on its website to educate children and to keep up with the new generation.

I pay tribute once more to the staff of the commission for their invaluable work. They are the guardians of the past, for which we should be eternally grateful.

Iraq Inquiry Report

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Thursday 14th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I am delighted to sum up on behalf of the Scottish National party. Before I do so, I commend those who secured the debate—crucially, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), and the hon. Members for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas).

Many of the Members on the SNP Benches, as the numbers indicate, see this as important issue. If not in all constituencies in the United Kingdom, it is so in Scotland, and for a specific reason. It was a real issue on the doorstep at the last election. I am mindful of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) who, in a hustings with her predecessor last year, asked the question, “Why did you vote for the Iraq war?” The answer was, “I didnae.” My hon. Friend took out an iPad and looked up Hansard. The rest is on YouTube to watch. It is embarrassing that that situation arose, when a Member of this House could not even remember whether they voted to go to war or not. It was a disgrace. Needless to say, that Member no longer sits in this House. Iraq has been a critical issue in Scottish politics over the past decade.

I declare an interest. My brother is a reservist and had a tour of duty in Iraq and two tours of duty in Afghanistan. When I used to write to him on the frontline, I knew day in, day out that I might never get a reply, so I share the concerns of many Members and those who represent military families of both officers and personnel. The report needs to be published, as promised. Families such as Rose Gentle and her family need answers.

Who, in any western democracy, would have believed that a four-letter word would have such a far-reaching and profound effect on domestic affairs and be so detrimental to our relations with other countries, as well as paralysing any hope of moving on and learning from past mistakes? It is a word deeply embedded in our psyche and conscience and it continues to overshadow our work in an increasingly unstable and fractured world. That word, of course, is “Iraq”.

In February 2003, together with more than 100,000 others, I marched through the great city of Glasgow, joined by another 1 million across the communities of these islands, to protest against an invasion of the sovereign nation of Iraq. I would never have imagined that I would be standing here to reiterate the same belief that led me to march then—a belief shared by Scottish National party members, predominantly those who elected us, that that invasion was the wrong choice and an immoral one.

Now, 13 years after our armed forces were led into that illegal invasion, and seven years after the establishment of the inquiry into the UK’s role, this Parliament and the communities of these islands are still waiting to learn of the true events of that catastrophic war which, as I said, has had profound consequences on our international relations and, critically, on the lives of our armed forces and on millions of lives across the globe.

During the debate I was looking up at the Public Gallery and I could see young and old, people of every generation and of every race and creed, and I thought to myself, “The consequences of that decision to go to war, on what I perceive as an illegal basis and a lie, will have profound consequences not just on those in the Public Gallery, but on the children being born now and the lives that they will lead in the future.”

Much has been made of using the Chilcot report, as stated in previous debates, as a mirror to reflect on the events leading up to the invasion and on the war itself. More importantly, the real opportunity is for the British Government to change what they are doing. In a speech on the Floor of the House last year, as has been mentioned, the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) stated that this is our Vietnam. I would go even further back, because this is another knot in the history of failed diplomatic choices by this political state. I consider Iraq to be a modern-day Khartoum, so we could go back even further and look at the situation we have faced in Sudan and Egypt over the many decades since. Iraq laid the ground for considerable misadventure in the years that lay ahead. I believe that we would be misguided to look at this report from the classic imperialistic viewpoint; the one that led us into Iraq in the first place.

Since being established, the Chilcot inquiry has had a stranglehold on British diplomatic and military policy, with everything being placed in limbo until the report is released. The longer we wait, the more unstable our position becomes. That has led successive British Governments to continue with the same failed philosophy without ever learning from their mistakes or looking at a different set of responses to the situation in which we now find ourselves. It would also be inexcusable for the British Government, led by the Conservative and Unionist party, to use its internal European war to delay publication. Frankly, it would be immoral.

Sadly, there does not seem to have been any willingness or vision from successive British Governments to change their knee-jerk and reactive diplomacy, according to which a situation requiring attention almost always ends up with a bombing campaign, which only adds fuel to an already inflammatory setting. In reality, we now have an inability to confront threats in a progressive manner due to the fear oozing from Chilcot. The Government are unable to learn their military and diplomatic limits, and that is undermining the UK’s diplomatic capabilities and reducing its ability to defend its economic and social interests.

The UK’s senior diplomats, as the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border mentioned last year, are reduced to a rump, often moved on very quickly in their tenure and often unable to communicate in local languages. Time and again in debates about Chilcot on the Floor of the House, the point is made that the policy of having a mass diplomatic service with ever dwindling expertise and reliance on local information undermines the idea that this place knows what is going on, and not only in Bagdad, but in Washington, as we clearly saw when a British Labour Prime Minister, and his Government, walked hand-in-hand with a Republican President of the United States and led our armed forces into war.

I am not often for quoting things, but I thought I would go back a wee bit and see if there was any expertise on how to use information in “The Art of War”, an ancient Chinese publication. The General notes that there are two goals for intelligence activities—I will quote only the first, Members will be glad to hear. He states:

“The first goal is to obtain accurate, timely information about the objectives, resources and activities of competitors.”

We failed in that basic military process because we relied on the services of others, while our other closest NATO allies in Europe looked to their own services and came to the discerned opinion that an invasion of Iraq would be wrong, with regard both to ability and to inability to extract ourselves from it. From that perspective, it looks like our diplomatic policy is based on Google Translate, due to the limited numbers of senior diplomats with second languages relevant to their placement and over-reliance on local translators and locally based staff.

From the Scottish National party Benches at least, the idea of “mission accomplished”, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Douglas Chapman), is both a fallacy and a myth perpetuated by successive British Governments hell bent on rewriting history. The maxim that victors write history cannot be applied here, because the war is not over.

Further to the point about the UK’s diplomatic efforts, failure to publish the Chilcot report would reduce the UK’s military leadership. With this House’s decision on Syria, for instance, it abdicates responsibility for bombing a country into submission, rather than dealing with the reality we now face: Assad, still ensconced. We knew that would happen, yet the Government have pursued a military programme that places in a perilous position not only the armed forces, but civilians. This policy failure is the price that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is paying for Iraq, and it is one for which the communities of these islands will pay for years to come. It is unforgivable.

Yet even when published, as surely it must be in the timeframe set out by the Prime Minister, the Chilcot report will not reflect the entire story. I am grateful that the hon. and gallant Members for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and for Gravesham (Mr Holloway) rose to address the House today, because they reflected some element of the lived experience of the military service personnel on the frontline. But Chilcot is more than just an examination of Government policy and the impact on international relations; it is a very real and personal goal for the families of those service personnel who lost their lives during the war. Those families have lived the Iraq war every day since the bombs were dropped, and every day that the evidence of the inquiry was gathered. We want closure.

I will bring my comments to an end, because I am conscious of the time. We, as parliamentarians and representatives of the communities that have sent us to this place, have a duty and a responsibility to ensure that decisions made about war and peace are open and transparent. We recognise that armed services personnel know that they might not come back, because that is the danger of being in the armed services—that is not the point. The point is that we do not wish them to go to a war that is illegal or a bad diplomatic choice for the country. How can we carry out this process if we are being denied the opportunity to read a report on a war that continues to impact on the security of this political state?

The Prime Minister must stay true to his word on a two-week clearance period so that the report can be published in the week beginning 2 May 2016. Any further delay will not be acceptable to those on the Scottish National party Benches or our constituents, and I am sure, as we have heard from hon. Members across the House today, that it will not be acceptable to them and to Parliament itself. Critically, it will not be acceptable to those who served the Crown abroad and to the families of those who lost their lives.

Scotch Whisky Industry

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Moon. I thank my very close hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara), who has a neighbouring constituency, for securing this debate.

I have a long association with whisky, and not just as a drinker. In 1992, I was elected to the then Clydebank District Council for ward 3, Mountblow. The district of Mountblow is home to one of Scotland’s most lowland malts and the only triple distilled whisky; it has been producing the uisge beatha for nearly 200 years. The Auchentoshan distillery is found in the foothills of the Kilpatricks, in the old Auchentoshan estate. I was honoured to represent the area in 1992, and I am delighted and honoured to do so in this House as we debate the impact of whisky on the economy. For the record, that is “whisky”, without an e—that is just a note for Hansard.

In recent times my constituency has mourned the passing of Littlemill, which was dismantled in 1997, although thankfully its production was taken up by the vibrant Loch Lomond distillery, which produces Captain Haddock’s favourite tipple in Hergé’s “Tintin”—a truly European product. Whisky is a global product that will not be assisted by Members who favour Brexit. Loch Lomond marks the boundary between the lowlands and highlands of Scotland and has been at the heart of whisky production for centuries. Sadly, at least nine distilleries around the loch have been lost over the years, leaving Loch Lomond distillery to maintain the proud local tradition at that end of my constituency.

Auchentoshan is a true urban whisky, with an economic and social reach across my entire constituency and beyond. As hon. Members have said, that reach includes bottling, marketing, tourism, sales, printing, malt production and glass production. Each year the distillery of Auchentoshan alone uses 2,500 tonnes of malt, 12.7 tonnes of yeast and 12 million gallons of Scotland’s finest water drawn from the Kilpatricks, with more than 1 million litres of pure alcohol. That is bottled as five expressions of Auchentoshan, including my personal favourite, American Wood. In addition, it has produced its exceptional eight limited editions.

Auchentoshan and Loch Lomond distilleries play their part in supporting national production with 40,000 jobs, of which 10,800 are directly in the industry, and supplying salaries worth £1.4 billion to UK workers. I call on the Minister and the Government to play their part in supporting them. The average-priced bottle of Scotch whisky is subject to 76% tax, and there is no doubt that that is bad for business, bad for the industry and bad for consumers. I am sure the Minister will at least agree that a 2% cut in duty on whisky in this year’s Budget would be a welcome relief to the economy and a win-win for everyone.

The case for that is self-evident. From 2015 to January 2016, following the 2% cut in last year’s Budget, duty receipts from spirits went up by £102 million compared with the same period the previous year. Spirits were the driver behind a £190 million increase in alcohol revenue, which was of huge benefit to the economy. The evidence is clear. The UK Government’s rate of 76% on Scotch whisky is the fourth highest rate in Europe, and UK consumers currently pay 25% of all European Union spirit duties—more than consumers in Spain, Italy and Poland combined. It seems that at least in this case, the only drawback to being part of the European Union is the UK Government’s self-made taxation rates on spirits. Although Scotch whisky enjoys widespread popularity, a further cut in duty would be a welcome move for a product that remains one of the most highly taxed in the world.

Investment in new distilleries and production at established sites is unprecedented. Those new distilleries need a home market that encourages growth and long-term investment. Support for the industry through a further cut in excise duty would help and support that.

One last challenge remains. Some whisky producers have a local GDP equal to that of small nations. That could and should be challenged through our Community Empowerment (Scotland) Bill. It is my hope that one day whisky production will act as a catalyst for local community ownership, with broader local production being in the hands of the communities of Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Damian Hinds)]

It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Moon. I congratulate the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) on securing this important debate. I have sometimes wondered what it is like to be at the Scottish National party conference, and I need wonder no longer. I commend all colleagues, from the SNP and from the Conservative and Labour parties, for being here for this debate. I welcome all the contributions, including from the SNP spokesman, the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Calum Kerr), fresh from his unexpected starring role at today’s Prime Minister’s questions—he was “Callum”. [Interruption.] I recall all his colleagues pointing at him. I also welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey), who as always made a thoughtful speech and some good points. During my remarks I will return to the points that have been raised.

This has been a good debate, which made me thirsty more than once, particularly when the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) was speaking—and that was just when she was describing the water. Even the most enthusiastic champions of the spirits industry would stop short of calling whisky a daily necessity. [Interruption.] I may stand corrected but, according to the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, just over half of UK adults, the equivalent of 26 million people, drink spirits. Aside from that, the whisky industry makes a hard and important economic contribution to the UK economy. Every second, whisky exports earn this country £125—we will not quibble over £125 or £135. Scotch is solely responsible for a quarter of all UK food and drink exports. With Scotch present in some 200 markets worldwide, there is a good case to be made for calling it our most widely consumed export. Leading markets for Scotch whisky exports include France, the US and Spain. In Spain, exports increased by nearly 8% in volume between January and June 2015.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

On sales, France is the largest consumer of Scotch whisky by volume. Does the Minister agree with SNP Members that a Brexit would be both fundamentally difficult for the Scotch Whisky Association and would limit its ability because further trade agreements would be required for that volume of sales to continue?

[Damian Hinds]

The hon. Gentleman anticipates some of my later points. If he will forgive me, I will delay my response until then.

One of my favourite whisky-related export stats comes from Japan. It will be a matter of equal sadness and joy to the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute that, scandalously, the best whisky of 2015 award was won by a Japanese brand but that Japan increased the volume of its imports of Scotch whisky by 23% between January and June 2015. Clearly the consumers of Japan have very good taste. We should also acknowledge the wider British spirits industry. I am pleased to say that the main trade association reported that 140 million bottles of British gin are exported to foreign markets, which works out as a 37% increase in five years.

It is also important to bear in mind the very positive effects that the Scotch whisky industry has on employment; many hon. Members have already alluded to those effects. The Scotch Whisky Association estimates that the industry already supports over 40,000 jobs, including—importantly—7,000 in the rural economy. Of course, distilleries remain a key source of jobs in the Scottish rural economy, and are strongly aligned with wider tourism activities. Also, as we have already heard this afternoon, every job in the Scotch whisky industry supports 2.7 further jobs in the broader economy, and some of that benefit is spread throughout the UK.

In the constituency of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute, Scotch whisky is definitely a traditional industry that remains a critical part of its heritage. A total of 14 distilleries are in operation in the constituency, including Bowmore, Ardbeg, Kilchoman, Glengyle, Springbank, Glen Scotia, Tobermory and Oban, and a few others that are less obviously uni-phonetical, so I hope that he will forgive me if I stop there. It goes without saying that we want to continue and wholeheartedly support this Great British success story.

Over recent weeks, I have had the opportunity to meet the hon. Gentleman and some of his colleagues who are sitting with him today in the all-party group on Scotch whisky, as well as representatives from the SWA, and the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, among others. I have taken on board the confidence that they have about the continued success of their industry, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are united in wanting to help the industry go from strength to strength.

Of course, it was precisely for that reason that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced in the Budget of March 2015 only the fourth duty cut in spirits history, the previous one having been in 1996. I strongly supported that decision. Since then, the trend in whisky production has been notable. Between 2014 and 2015, the volume of whisky cleared for sale in the UK increased by 2%. Increasing confidence from the Budget 2014 duty freeze, combined with demand for exports, has contributed to this significant turnaround from the decline in production that the industry had experienced between 2010 and 2014.

The encouraging news continues with the developing trend in small distilleries entering the market. From 2014, seven new whisky distilleries have opened, taking the total number of Scotch whisky distillers to 117. In addition, it is planned that a further 30 to 40 distilleries will enter the market in the coming years, which is a good thing for investment and jobs in Scotland.

I am pleased that the Scotch whisky industry remains dynamic. As has been mentioned, the £1.7 billion investment in its supply chain has helped to meet the demand from overseas markets, and supported jobs over the long term, which is particularly significant for our rural economies.

How can we as a Government continue to support the industry over the coming years? Hon. Members know that next week my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will deliver his Budget in the Chamber, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute and his colleagues know that it would clearly be wrong for me to anticipate that in any way whatsoever.

However, it is important to maintain our efforts in two particular areas. The first is the export market. Nine out of every 10 bottles of Scotch whisky sold are sold overseas, and I must remind hon. Members that, on that volume, no UK duty is paid. The hon. Member for Salford and Eccles rightly asked what export support could be given to continue the growth of this important industry. Through the efforts of UK Trade & Investment, we have seen some very strong success stories, all contributing to the 90% growth in exports that the Scotch whisky industry enjoyed between 2004 and 2014. Each second, 40 bottles of whisky are shipped overseas.

We have increased the budget and the remit of UKTI so that it can continue and even extend its promotion of British products worldwide and, importantly, negotiate with export markets for the right regulatory regime, to help people enjoy their dram wherever they may be in the world.

Distillers can now supply their product in countries including India, which can further open the door to other countries. Although Scotch whisky’s share of total spirits volume in India is only around 1%, the SWA expects that that would increase to 5% if there was full and fair market access. The UK supports a broad and ambitious free trade agreement with India. However, there are outstanding issues, including on spirits, that need to be addressed.

The Government are keen to restart negotiations on the free trade agreement and have made the case for that to the European Commission and in bilateral engagement with India. I am sure that most hon. Members here will agree that, as was mentioned earlier, in this endeavour we are better equipped as part of the world’s largest single market than we would be alone, even if my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole—and Saskatchewan—(Andrew Percy) may only agree with that comment for half the debate. He also reminded us of the importance and the number of other potential export growth markets around the world, including Canada.

Opening up more export markets is just one part of the Scotch whisky success story, and I hope that we see much more success in the coming years, as our expanded UKTI teams continue to make the case for Scotch whisky.

The second area that the Government can support is a little more nebulous, and the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Michelle Thomson) referred to it. I think of it as protecting and enhancing the quality mark of genuine Scotch provenance. Scotch whisky is clearly an iconic product for Scotland and the UK, but with iconic products comes the risk of poor-quality imitations. To protect the integrity and the high reputation of the brand of Scotch whisky worldwide, we launched the spirits verification scheme, which the hon. Member for Salford and Eccles mentioned. This scheme sets standards on production and labelling for producers to sign up to, helping to identify non-compliant products and counterfeits, and making sure that people who buy Scotch whisky get exactly that.

The geographical indication for Scotch whisky is now recognised in the laws of nearly 100 countries, including the whole of the European Union, which is another reason for there to be continued optimism in the industry and continued worldwide recognition for Scotch. But why limit consumers to what they recognise as Scotch whisky from the front of a bottle? The hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) mentioned the tourism opportunities, and that point was echoed by a number of other colleagues.

Producers are offering tours of their distilleries, opening up a whole new way to connect with thirsty tourists who are keen to understand the traditional side of their whisky—the pride and the passion that go into every bottle of Scotch. According to the SWA, collaborative efforts by the industry and VisitScotland have contributed to more than 1.5 million visits over the last year, with visitors spending more than £50 million at distilleries.

The other aspect of protecting and enhancing the brand of Scotch whisky is, of course, the health issue. Let me be clear about this—Scotch whisky, like all drinks, is perfectly capable of being enjoyed responsibly, and of course it is also capable of being misused. However, this Government firmly believe that the irresponsible actions of some should not be a barrier to the vast majority of people who enjoy a drink responsibly. That is why we will continue to combine efforts with the industry to raise awareness of the need for responsible drinking.

The Scotch Whisky Action Fund is an excellent example of what the industry can do. It is entering its third year of a five-year programme and is delivering £500,000 of funding to support community-based projects that are aimed at reducing alcohol-related harm in Scotland. I am confident that we will continue to strike the right balance between enabling responsible enjoyment of a traditional product, and dissuading irresponsible and harmful behaviour.

Let me turn very briefly to a couple of the other points that were made in the debate. It is not a new development that different countries choose to tax alcoholic beverages differently. Of course, countries choose their tax system, including the balance between direct and indirect taxes, to reflect their needs. When setting duty rates, the Government have to consider the wider fiscal picture. Total revenue from alcohol duty in 2015 was £10.7 billion, with revenue from spirits contributing around 30% of that. Just to give some perspective, £10.7 billion is the same as the entire budget for the Home Office.

I do not know of any EU country that has full duty equivalence among alcoholic drinks. In this country, of course, a typical serving of 25 ml of spirits has lower duty than other typical servings of drinks, for example a pint of beer or 175 ml of wine. As I have already said, the majority of Scotch does not have duty applied to it as it is for export. As I am sure hon. Members appreciate, any and all announcements on duty rates are made in the Budget.

The contribution of Scotch whisky to the UK economy is not least due to the tireless work of distillers who put in the hours and, in this case, the years to produce such a high-quality product. We want the industry to continue to succeed, both domestically and in ever widening markets overseas, promoting Scotland and the UK, and creating jobs and growth. Our programme for Government is based on creating long-term growth and security, and a successful and strong Scotch whisky industry is an integral part of that.

I thank the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute once again for bringing this important subject to Westminster Hall for debate today.

House of Lords Reform

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Martin John Docherty (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered House of Lords reform.

Not since 2011, when the then Deputy Prime Minister presented the case for reform, have Members of the House of Commons been offered the opportunity to debate and discuss the House of Lords on the Floor of this House. Therefore, before proceeding any further, I wish to extend my grateful thanks to the Backbench Business Committee, and to the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) especially, for agreeing to this debate and for some sage advice, which was critical, given my novice plea.

During the general election there were various mentions of House of Lords reform. Critically, the Conservative party limited its vision in its manifesto to addressing only the size of the House of Lords, for clearly size matters to the Tory party. At its present velocity of expansion, the House of Lords will soon exceed the National People’s Congress of China. It has already exceeded the size of the European Parliament, which is elected by over 400 million European citizens. Clearly, Parliament envy will soon see even this House displaced by the Prime Minister’s expansionary tactics.

I know that at the previous general election the British Labour party took a more pragmatic view. I give credit where credit is due by recognising the work the previous Labour Government did to limit the hereditary peerage, although that work was sullied by the cash for honours scandal uncovered by my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). I wonder where my Labour colleagues are today.

At least on these Benches we have spoken with one voice. At the general election the Scottish National party placed our proposal before the entire community of Scotland: “Abolish it!” If this Parliament is to work as an effective and legitimate legislature in the British state, its upper Chamber should resemble less the congress of a communist state and more the revising and advisory role of a Parliament of a 21st century liberal democracy.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about abolition, which is a theme I wish to speak about later. Does he agree that the power of patronage of Prime Ministers to appoint people they choose to the House of Lords is even more pernicious than having hereditary peers, who at least have the advantage of being independent?

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He need not worry, because I will get there.

Let us return to the hope of many Members of this House—a hope that is shared, in particular, by my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who cannot be here today—that any future reform of the upper Chamber should not only consider its size, but limit it and remove with haste its ability, as an unelected and unaccountable Chamber, to generate legislation. That is an affront to my constituents and an aberration at the heart of the British political system.

Only a few months ago the Government were keen to play down any reform agenda. Their latest antics have the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) as Citizen Camembert rather than Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Prime Minister playing the good cop and leading man as the Black Fingernail. This is indeed a farce, if not a “Carry On”.

While many Members across this Chamber would seek a long-term resolution of the undeniable illegitimacy of the upper Chamber in its present form, the Government tinker at the edges with the Strathclyde review, a botch job done in jig time for Christmas. Although the review offers a way forward, it seems to confuse the role of the House of Lords. Is it to be a mere stamper of Government policy, or is it a revising Chamber that tackles the Government on the tough subjects of the day? Critically, all options would offer an additional burden on the workings of this House and highlight the behemoth that is the Palace of Westminster. If the report were at least linked in some way or form to improvements in working practices such as electronic voting, which would allow us in this place to deliberate more robustly, in more depth, and with reduced recourse to statutory instruments, it would have been a slightly more useful document. For the record, however, I wish to commend Lord Strathclyde and all those involved for seeking to overcome the Government’s obstacles.

While the report is welcome, it highlights the Dickensian, if not medieval, machinations and dubious working practices of this Parliament. It accidentally shows the Alice in Wonderland antics of the so-called liberal democratic practices of the mother of Parliaments. If the review was worth the paper it was written on, it would be my hope, and that of my hon. Friends, that it would seek to uphold the nature of our polyarchy and at least promote its first pillar, namely that control over Government decisions about policy should at all times constitutionally be invested in elected officials—Members of this House elected by their constituents, from whom they derive their political mandate.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate and apologise for being unable to stay for the whole thing. He speaks about the legislative powers of Members of the House of Lords. Does he agree that even more pernicious and insidious is the soft power that is held by unelected Members? They can spend much time in all-party groups, have access to Ministers behind the scenes and all the other trappings that are not visible or even open to scrutiny through live coverage of the Chamber because they happen behind the scenes.

[Martin John Docherty]

I could not agree more. The way that operates within this Parliament is pernicious.

Sadly, I believe that in this Parliament, at least, the aspiration and will for change are a lost cause, given that in the previous Parliament alone the Prime Minister appointed 200 new unelected, unaccountable members of the peerage, and a further 45 in the short period in which my hon. Friends and I have been returned to this House. Appointees covering the great and the so-called good include, of course, large-scale donors to political parties and former bigwigs of county halls the length and breadth of the country.

Of the peerage, let me turn specifically to a certain cadre—the archbishops and bishops of the established Church of England. While much has been made of likening their position to that of the theocrats of the Islamic Republic of Iran, my direct challenge to them is this: they have no place in debating—or voting on, should it occur—the civic or religious life of Scotland. I draw Members’ attention to early-day motion 952, submitted by my own hand and signed by many of my hon. Friends from Scottish constituencies, which calls on the Lords Spiritual to desist in their well documented, historical interference in the affairs of the community of Scotland since the times of our late and noble King David. Their interference must end if this Parliament is truly to reflect the broad kirk of representation and communities of this political state.

Let us turn our gaze on the other members of the peerage of the realm. Yes, I will admit, through gritted teeth, that within their ermine-clad utopia there are a few souls who work hard. Yet, as exposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire in a debate in Westminster Hall only a year ago, we can see the limited work of so many who stipulate that their position is to stand for Scotland in the upper Chamber. The peerage has no constituency—we all recognise that—and yet they purport in that unelected Chamber to ensure that our constituents’ needs are met. One prime example is those peers who have given attendance and full participation a cursory glance and claim substantial sums of taxpayers’ money for the privilege of access to the Bishops’ Bar.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

May I ask the hon. Gentleman, and his colleagues, whether he would like to have a member of the SNP in the House of Lords? I think that would be good idea.

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for a good laugh, but the answer is no.

As per convention, I shall name no names, but I direct hon. Members to acquaint themselves with the debate held in Westminster Hall on this very day one year ago, where the record of the peerage is seen to be damning indeed.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is delivering a great deal of passion in his speech; it is just a pity that his passion is not shared by the public at large, or indeed, evidently, by Labour Members. What would he say to those who do not necessarily disagree with some of what he is saying but for whom, nevertheless, this is a low priority?

[Martin John Docherty]

Democracy is never a low priority in the Scottish National party. That is why the people and community of Scotland returned my hon. Friends in such numbers.

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is little democracy in the fact that those who have been rejected by the electorate can then find themselves along the corridor from us, making law?

[Martin John Docherty]

I could not disagree with my hon. Friend on that very important matter.

The upper Chamber and its shenanigans reflect more a debauched imperial Roman senate than a functioning democratic parliamentary Chamber, bowing and scraping in a place in which the modern world is seen as an inconvenience. Since my election to this House, I have visited the unelected, unaccountable Lords, where I took my place in the Members of the House of Commons’ balcony—a lofty vantage point across which to view the stoor and the oose of ages. It would seem that their lordships are followers of the Quentin Crisp school of housework. Like him, they firmly believe that after the first four years, the dirt doesnae get any worse. Four years of accumulating dust is nothing compared with the accumulation of centuries of privilege and unaccountability. It must end.

There are those who will see this as nothing other than Celtic hyperventilation against a conspiracy of anomalies, arrogance, absurdity, vanity and venality that poses as a pillar of the mother of Parliaments—and they may be right.

[Patrick Grady]

It is not simply a matter of vanity. In 2005, as I am sure Members are aware, the Scottish National party had a democratic vote at its conference never to accept seats in the House of Lords, confirming a convention that had been in place since the 1970s. At no point in the party’s history has it ever considered taking a position in the unelected Chamber.

[Martin John Docherty]

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. For as long as I am the Member for West Dunbartonshire and a member of the Scottish National party, that is what I will be sticking to—saying no to seats in the unelected, unaccountable House of Lords.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on what has so far been a very colourful speech. He has been very clear about the SNP’s position, but his partners in this House are Plaid Cymru, which does have Members in the other place.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

We do not have a separate jurisdiction.

[Martin John Docherty]

My very hon. Friend has given the answer from a sedentary position: Wales does not have a separate jurisdiction. That in itself is a disgrace and one of the main concerns for my hon. Friends in Plaid Cymru.

As I said, all this could be seen as pure Celtic hyperventilation about the unaccountability of the House of Lords, yet there are Members from beyond the Celtic fringe—although I wonder where they are today—who find the unelected and unaccountable nature of the House of Lords an affront to liberal democracy.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

May I inform the hon. Gentleman that there are some English people—I am English from generations back on all sides—who believe we should have one democratic Chamber, not an unelected Chamber full of place persons and hereditaries?

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do, of course, count Cornwall in the Celtic fringe.

Any debate that links the Government and Her Majesty’s Opposition to some of the most damning political consequences and incompetence, as highlighted in the last Parliament by my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, will fill even those Members—those hardy souls—with dread. Cash for honours sends a collective shiver down the spine of this House and, indeed, our parliamentary system. I seriously doubt that we have seen the last of it, not only in the upper Chamber but even here. The appointment process exposes beyond doubt the privileges of those Members of the House of Lords. In reality, there is no substitute for democracy and direct election.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

I am delighted to join the Chamber to hear my hon. Friend’s speech at such late notice. Does he agree not only that this debate is vital—it is a sheer disappointment that more Members are not here—but that it is incredibly perverse that we are about to reduce the number of democratically elected MPs in this Chamber from 650 to 600, at the same time as the House of Lords is ever increasing?

[Martin John Docherty]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his interjection. He raises an important point. I am grateful that the Front Benchers of Her Majesty’s Opposition are here, but where are the great reformers? Where are the Liberal Democrats, the great changers of the British constitution? They are in the House of Lords.

As to the future—I wish to address my hon. Friend’s question directly—one clear clarion call should go out to the British Labour party and the British Liberal party: no more appointments. Enough. Stop. Renew, here today, the commitment to reform—not piecemeal; not lacklustre; not fiddling while the parliamentary democracy of this political state is sullied by the illegitimacy of the House of Lords. Be clear. Be concise: no more Labour or Liberal peers. Call the Government’s bluff. Call the bluff of the unelected, unaccountable mire of cronies and warmehrs. Join us in demanding an end to privilege and patronage at the heart of Government.

There will be Members who will seek a resolution to this issue: unicameral or bicameral, one or two Chambers. I am open to persuasion about a bicameral system, although a unicameral system, as evidence from across the world shows, is no less a robust and decent system of parliamentary liberal democracy. If a bicameral system is to exist, here in this Parliament, then let it be fully elected. Let it be representative of the communities and nations of this political state. Let it reflect the lived experience of my constituents. While I am no Unionist, I believe in the sovereign will of the community of Scotland. If we should remain in this place, my constituents have been clear: change, and soon.

With a Prime Minster appointing more peers than Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair and all before, I doubt that change will come, and the consequences for Scotland and the Union are well known. When unelected and unaccountable peers of the realm can stipulate the governance of Scotland while the evidence and proposals from its elected Members of the House of Commons are thrown in the Thames, the case for the re-establishment of a sovereign, democratic and independent Scotland is made not by members of the Scottish National party, but by the very apogee of the British state. It would be easy—indeed, it is easy—for me to vent frustration at the pace of House of Lords reform, but that is not enough.

Today, just like every other day, I am wearing a tie, as deemed by convention in this House. The tie I am wearing today represents to me hope for a more equal and just society, in which the pupils of Bonhill Primary School in the mighty Vale of Leven—whose tie this is—should hope to live. That hope should be placed in a Parliament that reflects them and their peers, not a Parliament in which the oligarchs, cronies and chancers of an upper Chamber go about their business unelected and unaccountable. Let us be in no doubt that those pupils will place that hope closer to their experience and, indeed, to their need at home in Scotland. For sure they know,

A prince can mak a belted knight,

A marquis, duke, an’ a’ that;

But an honest man’s aboon his might,

Guid faith he mauna fa’ that!

For a’ that, an’ a’ that,

Their dignities, an’ a’ that,

The pith o’ sense, an’ pride o’ worth,

Are higher rank than a’ that.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Patricia Gibson]

Indeed, I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. I wish to add my disappointment at the fact that the Leader of the Opposition, who considers himself to have very left-wing credentials, has co-opted Members of the House of Lords into his shadow Cabinet. That is a travesty if ever there was one.

I may have been a huge fan of the political novels of Anthony Trollope in my formative years, but I have no wish to live in the 19th century. Madam Deputy Speaker, if you will indulge me for just a moment, I feel that I must share some figures with the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) has shamed me into doing this, and marital relations would become strained if I did not mention the fact that the distinguished—certainly he is in my house—MSP for Cunninghame North unearthed some figures that showed that nearly 75% of appointments to the Lords are defeated, retired or deselected MPs or former advisers. After every election, we actually hear the stampede towards the ermine, from this place to that place. If this matter were not so serious, I would be laughing. We have hereditary peers and Church of England bishops—I have often wondered whether that means that God is an Englishman.

[Martin John Docherty]

Does my hon. Friend agree that if God were a Scotsman, he still would not want a place in the House of Lords?

[Patricia Gibson]

Absolutely. We have in the Lords cronies, party donors, party-placed men and women—although there are fewer women than men—failed politicians, and retired politicians who are looking for a wee hobby in 2016. Perhaps that was fitting in Anthony Trollope’s time, but, for the love of God—Madam Deputy Speaker, forgive me—let us get a grip. I bet that when we do get rid of this relic, just like the smoking ban we will wonder why it took so long and why we waited so long. No one on these Benches is saying that there are not some folk in the House of Lords who are well intentioned or who have much expertise and skill to offer their country’s legislative process. No one is even saying that we should not enter into a debate about the relative merits of a second Chamber to revise legislation. That is a debate that we could and should have in the future. What we are saying is that anyone who seeks to pontificate over, revise, introduce or influence legislation in our Parliament should be elected by the people whom they purport to serve. It is as simple as that.

I am almost embarrassed to repeat the numbers for China’s National People’s Congress—as I have now made comparisons with China and Iran, I can see that we are in good company with those beacons of democracy.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (John Penrose)]

I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin John Docherty) on securing this debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. I think he said that it was his beginners plea when he made his case, but he knocked any sense of being a beginner into a cocked hat with his speech. He hoped that we would forgive his tendency for Celtic hyperventilation—I think that was the phrase he used. He was also kind enough to mention that he counted Wales and certainly Cornwall as part of the Celtic fringe. I may not represent Cornwall but I have a Cornish name, so I am glad to hear that he would include me in that group. I will try not to hyperventilate either, and the hon. Gentleman made a powerful and good case.

We also had the opportunity to compare and contrast our debate with the previous debate on space policy, which contained many quotes from David Bowie. In this debate we had many quotes from Robbie Burns. I will leave Members here present and those reading Hansard later to come to their own conclusions about the relative merits of those two bards, one ancient, one modern. I suspect that they will both be clasped firmly to different people’s hearts during this debate.

Let me echo a point made by a number of colleagues during the debate and ask: where on earth are the Liberal Democrats? Where have they got to?

[Martin John Docherty]

The House of Lords!

[John Penrose]

Many of them are in the House of Lords. They are reduced to a small number of MPs, and none of them is here today. I regard that as a real tragedy because in the last Parliament, and in previous Parliaments, they—they have not been the only ones—were pressing the case for reform of the Lords and other constitutional reform. All of a sudden, when they are hugely over-represented in the House of Lords relative to their representation in this House, they are nowhere to be seen. They are Macavity’s cat when it comes to reform of the Lords and this debate. That is a tragedy, and people will draw their own conclusions about their relative levels of interest.

The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire encapsulated a series of criticisms about the Lords, which have been widely echoed by many Members. I will not go through them all in huge detail when summing up the debate, but broadly speaking he made the point in a variety of different ways that the level of democratic legitimacy in the House of Lords is incredibly low. The only group that are elected are the 92 hereditary peers, and they are elected from an electoral college.

There are other criticisms—that the House of Lords is very large, and the bishops and hereditaries should not be there—that buttress the central charge of a lack of legitimacy and democratic principle in the Lords as it is currently constituted. I agree and that is reflected in my personal voting record on the issue. The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) mentioned the series of votes on the issue in the 2005 Parliament. It was my first Parliament and I voted consistently for anything that would increase the level of democratic involvement in the House of Lords. In the 2010 Parliament, we had an incredibly long and drawn-out attempt to reform the House of Lords. I do not think that anyone could claim that there was not a determined attempt—probably the most determined attempt for several generations—to reform the House of Lords and to make it more democratically legitimate. I voted consistently throughout for those reforms, even though the form of election might not necessarily have been to everybody’s taste—even mine. They were a step in the right direction, however, or at least they would have been had they been passed. I cannot argue, therefore, either from a personal or Government point of view, that the central charge is not valid. That is why the Conservative party’s election manifesto said we remain committed in principle to reform. Our approach is not driven by an opposition to the central charge made by the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire and echoed by many other hon. Members today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin John Docherty]

I thank the Minister for participating in the debate, and I thank the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) for informing the House about how we can make progress in the reform of an upper Chamber. I should make it clear, however, that for me and for my fellow SNP Members, the mandate from the constituencies of Scotland is that the reform must begin with the abolition of an unelected, unaccountable peerage which can generate legislation in that other place.

I also thank the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts)—I managed to say that very quickly—my hon. Friends the Members for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mhairi Black), for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), and for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan), the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who is no longer in the Chamber, my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Steven Paterson), who I know is about to leave the Chamber to go home, and my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant). I especially thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman), who did much of the groundwork for the debate.

Let me now place before the Minister a couple of caveats on reform. The appointment of ex-Members of this place should be forbidden for a minimum of 10 years. It is abhorrent that those who are thrown out of public office by the electorate can be duly thrown into the upper Chamber. The 26 archbishops and bishops of the Church of England should be removed immediately and prevented from debating the legislation of the civic and religious life of Scotland.

[John Penrose]

Will the hon. Gentleman clarify his point about former MPs? Would he draw any distinction between those who were defeated and those who have retired?

[Martin John Docherty]

No.

Members of the House of Lords should be automatically forced to retire by the age of 80. Even members of the Roman Curia are forced to retire as cardinals of the Roman Church. Fundamental, real change requires abolition.

This is an issue in Scotland. It may not be seen as an issue in the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—and I know that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) would have been present if he could have been—but to us it is an issue of inequality that is at the heart of our liberal democracy. I reject the House of Lords, because my constituents told me to reject it—for they are nothing, at that other end of the Corridor, but a bunch of sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beasties, and their time is up.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered House of Lords reform,