Oral Answers to Questions
Marion Fellows Excerpts(7 months, 1 week ago)
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Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP)
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Laura Trott
The hon. Gentleman will know that the Bank of England is independent. The good news is that the OBR expects inflation rates to fall to near target in the very near future.
Marion Fellows
The Warm this Winter campaign has found that households will have to pay an additional £1.3 billion to help energy companies to cover bad energy debt. What assurance can the Minister give that the extra charge will be passed on to indebted customers to alleviate their debt burden, rather than it being allowed to just alleviate debt for energy companies?
Budget Resolutions
Marion Fellows Excerpts(9 months ago)
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Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
This Tory Government want to cut the benefits bill to fund tax cuts. They are going to target those who are economically inactive, which includes a large percentage of disabled people, causing them extreme fear and distress. Studies at Lancaster University show that when disabled people are forced into work, they generally gravitate towards the gig economy for flexibility. They are then poorly paid and unable to qualify even for derisory statutory sick pay. That forces them back into inadequate but better paid sickness benefits. Job coaches with minimal training are not the best people to assess work capability. They may be well meaning or they may be incentivised to get people into work, whether it is suitable or not. That is a fear I hear over and over again from disabled people and organisations.
The spring Budget is totally tone deaf and signals yet more Westminster austerity for public services that are already on the brink. Our public services simply cannot endure austerity 2.0. It is deeply concerning that the Tories and Labour seem indistinguishable from one another: Labour is using the same economic tropes that the Conservatives used back in 2010 to justify their damaging austerity programme. Experts also say that the tougher sanctions regime that was introduced has backfired, with more people receiving sickness and disability benefits as a result.
The OBR’s economic outlook report states that under current plans there will be a reduction in money spent per person on frontline services that disabled people are utterly reliant upon. Nothing the Chancellor announced last week can mitigate the damage caused by Westminster austerity, the infamous Tory mini-budget and Brexit, which has caused irreparable damage to the UK’s economy that both the Government and Labour refuse to acknowledge. A coalition of disabled people’s organisations, the Disability Poverty Campaign Group, announced that it was deeply concerned, and even angered, by the spring Budget—anger is an understandable emotion emanating from the disabled community, as they have been consistently failed. Their relentless calls for additional targeted support since the beginning of the cost of living crisis have been ignored. They are also having doubts about what will happen under a change of Government.
Carers were left similarly disappointed. Helen Walker, the CEO of Carers UK, said:
“A staggering 600 people a day are giving up work to care, many as a result of the lack of social care. The lack of long-term sustainable funding for social care is heaping ever more pressure onto families. It’s simply unacceptable. As well as being financially disastrous for families, employers end up shouldering extra cost”.
All the while, levels of poverty have increased, and financial hardship and debt have risen to record levels. The six-month grace period for the household support fund is not enough. It must be made permanent and therefore give Barnett consequentials to the devolved Governments across the UK. In last year’s spring Budget, the Government reiterated their promise for an energy social tariff. Aye, well, we are still waiting.
The implementation of a social energy tariff would lift tens of thousands of financially and physically vulnerable people out of poverty, giving some relief to the many disabled people who need energy-intensive equipment to manage their conditions. National Energy Action has shown the way towards its affordability, while the Data Communications Company has pointed out that much of the existing smart meter infrastructure could be used alongside DWP data to target the tariff at those most in need. It beggars belief that the Budget has ignored that, and I hope that my private Member’s Bill, the Social Energy Tariff Bill, will keep it at the forefront of the Government’s mind. I am not giving up on this fight.
How can the Government expect to boost growth and productivity when living standards drop and millions of householders across the country cannot heat their homes or feed themselves? The Chancellor had an opportunity to support households, businesses and the vital public sector, but he did not take it. He failed entirely to help the most vulnerable, and to encourage growth and therefore prosperity for those who need it most. In Scotland we treat people with disabilities with dignity, fairness and respect, which are totally lacking under the DWP regime. Westminster is not working for Scotland under the Tories, and it will not work for Scotland under a Tory-like Labour Government either. Scotland’s values are not reflected in Westminster, and 50% of its population agree with me that it is time for independence.
Oral Answers to Questions
Marion Fellows Excerpts(10 months, 1 week ago)
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Bim Afolami
I completely agree on the absolute need to drive mortgage rates down, which is why we are supporting the Bank of England’s independent remit to bring interest rates down. We are also ensuring that we do not do things to make inflation worse, such as adding £28 billion to Government borrowing, which would increase inflation.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
The rate for a two-year fixed mortgage remains more than double the level of December 2021. More than 900,000 borrowers are set to see their monthly payments rise by £500 or even £1,000 a month. Government Ministers are having to resign because of increasing mortgage payments. How does the Chancellor expect people in Scotland to cope with increased mortgage rates if his Ministers cannot?
Bim Afolami
I would say two things in response to the hon. Lady. First, the best thing we can do is to help people with the cost of living, not increase their taxes, as the SNP in Scotland proposes, and to maintain—[Interruption.] I will not get bored of saying this. Secondly, we maintain our support for the Bank of England driving inflation down. We have more than halved it. We will continue to do that, and interest rates will come right down.
BACKBENCH BUSINESS
Marion Fellows Excerpts(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of VAT on audiobooks.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Sharma. We are in the coolest place in Westminster, so let us see if we can stay in here; this is probably the only room with any decent air conditioning.
I will start by declaring an interest: as well as being a former disabilities Minister, I am also dyslexic. I was not diagnosed until I was in the military, when I was sent on a course and was told by an education officer that I was dyslexic. I thought that it was some kind of tropical disease. No one ever said to me at school when I had real struggles with English and maths, particularly reading, that I might have a learning difficulty. I was told by my headmaster that I was thick and I was not allowed to take my 11-plus exam—I would have failed it. But no one with dyslexia is thick; they just struggle sometimes with understanding words and mathematics. I also declare an interest in that I am a non-executive director of a law firm, even though, unlike the Minister, I am not legally trained.
Let me say at the outset that I would like this to be a genuine debate, because it is not an “us and them” situation. For people with visual impairment, or with dyslexia or another learning difficulty that prevents them from being able to read the written word as easily as most people, the subject of this debate is an anomaly that I hope we can try to resolve.
I know that there are discussions about the issue within Government; I think there were when I was a disabilities Minister back in the coalition Government, but it looked at the time as if it would be difficult to resolve. Campaign groups out there have said to me, “We should be able to take the Government to court” under the 2010 legislation, although of course the Government are exempt—under section 29. My speech might show that the Government should take note when it comes to other pieces of legislation, because the legislation as it is at the moment may well be technically illegal; I again cite the fact that I am a lay person and not a legal beagle.
According to the Publishers Association, in 2020 sales of audiobooks rose by 69%, which might have had a lot to do with covid. The Prime Minister, who at that time was the Chancellor, said on 11 March 2020:
“A world-class education will help the next generation thrive, and nothing could be more fundamental to that than reading. And yet digital publications are subject to VAT. That cannot be right. So today I am abolishing the reading tax.”—[Official Report, 11 March 2020; Vol. 673, c. 290.]
He was talking about e-books, but I do not think that anybody out there knows the difference between audiobooks and e-books. Actually, I think the Government made a genuine mistake. We have zero VAT rating on books and publications of all types—whether that be academic, fiction or non-fiction—and e-books are exempt. Why were a whole group of people, from many different backgrounds, thrilled for a minute or two by the announcement, only to realise, once they saw the small print, that they would still be excluded?
For many of our constituents, audio is their only communication with the outside world and their way of finding out what is going on. If someone uses audiobooks to read fiction or non-fiction, perhaps, as we all want to do, they want to get on in life. Audiobooks are part of that process—for training, learning and education. We are holding them back by having 20% VAT on every audiobook they purchase.
People with disabilities are already being penalised extensively; Scope has said they are £970 per month worse off—a figure I recognise from when I was the Minister. We give people with disabilities other benefits, but if someone is using audiobooks extensively, that 20% is a huge amount of their income or household income. We are not just talking about people who are visually impaired or who are dyslexic, like myself. My form of dyslexia is quite minimal, but I tend to memorise everything. As Members have probably noticed, I do not tend to read from a script; I get much too wooden when I try to. In my case, it is much better to memorise most of the points that I want to raise.
My question to the Minister is simple. I know she cares passionately about making equality fair, but the Equality Act 2010 as it stands does not quite hit the nail on the head or do what is says on the tin. Does it protect all people from discrimination? In other words, does it protect people who need to use audiobooks from discrimination, when they have to pay 20% to be able to read? The rest of the population who can read visual books do not have to pay that.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Is it not true that young people especially enjoy audiobooks and it is a real path for them into the joy of reading? Some will not be able to discover that joy because of the expense, but it is how many first access literature?
Sir Mike Penning
I agree, and I hope that is part of the problem that the Minister, as a Treasury Minister, will recognise. It is difficult to work out how we can ensure that people who are being discriminated against—as opposed to people who can read in general terms; I will return to that point—have the ability to access audiobooks, while protecting the Treasury from the cost burdens. That is probably where the biggest problem lies.
If we were just talking about people who are visually impaired—a group of people who, without being rude, can be quite easily identified—the Treasury could make those calculations quite quickly. But what about when we get into the realms of what I was just talking about—people with learning difficulties, one of which is dyslexia? A huge percentage of those people have not had a diagnosis. How do you capture them?
To the point made by the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows): how do we take into account people who are not natural readers? I do not want to get into a class situation, but I did not read many books when I was at school because I struggled to read, and I know people who were in school with me who were not dyslexic but who just did not read. We want people to expand their knowledge, education and view of the world as much as possible, so if someone can read—they are not visually impaired—but they want to use audiobooks, should that not be okay? I think the Treasury would turn around and say, “How do you find the costs?”
I agree with the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw, but I am just trying to play devil’s advocate. That is the only way we can do it. We do not know who uses e-books but they have been removed from VAT. All printed books and publications are exempt, but audiobooks are not. Even though it would be easier to define an exemption for a certain group of people—I vividly remember conversations about that when I was disabilities Minister—I do not think that would be fair, not least for the millions of people out there who are dyslexic but have never had a diagnosis; dyslexia covers a very large spectrum.
The Equality Act means that no one should be discriminated against because of their disability, sex or race—a whole list of things. Given that Parliament cannot be caught under the Act, I suspect that it might be disingenuous to tell outside bodies that they may discriminate. It would be saying, “We are not breaking the Equality Act, but we are telling you to do so.” Take an obvious example: a local authority that wanted to sell audiobooks would have to charge VAT—in a library, for instance—whereas there is no VAT on books. Parliament is telling an agency of Government—that is, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs—to charge VAT on audiobooks. If it did so without an Act of Parliament, that would be discriminatory, but because we are exempt under section 29, it is not.
Long before the word “Brexit,” I was pretty well known for being what used to be called a Eurosceptic. I wanted to leave the European Union and for this country to have its sovereignty. But if there are laws on our statute books, we should use them. Section 6(1) of the Human Rights Act 1998 states:
“It is unlawful for a public authority to act in a way which is incompatible with a Convention right.”
There are other Acts of Parliament on the statute book. I am sure that there are plenty of lawyers who would argue one way and plenty who would argue another, but morally and ethically it cannot be right that there is legislation on the statute book—the Human Rights Act, the Equality Act and other European Acts—that states that we should not discriminate, and yet we are still in a situation in which someone who wants to improve their life for whatever reason is, by no choice of their own, penalised by our tax system. I am sure that the Minister will probably say that this is very complicated, and I know what her brief will say, because it is not dissimilar to the briefs that were given to me when I was sitting in that very chair. But because something is difficult, it does not mean it is right to do nothing about it.
One of my constituents, whose sight is failing—I will not in any way indicate who she is—is finding that her ability to work in commerce is being affected. She now relies almost completely on audiobooks, although there is also now software that will help people. She relies on audiobooks, and she does not want anybody to know that. She works from home and for her own reasons— I will not put words in her mouth—she wants to use audiobooks, because of her visual impairment. How can it be right that, if she needs an audiobook this week, she has to pay 20% on the product, but last month or last year, when she could read the publication, she did not have to pay that 20%?
Let us look at education for a second. This is where I deviate from the notes that people have helped me try to write—I will come back to some of it; people have been very supportive of me bringing this debate. Education books are quite rightly VAT-free, like all printed books. Audiobooks are not. The Minister will probably say that a lot of the VAT can be claimed back, but for individuals it cannot. If mum and dad, or grandpa and grandma, want to help their son, grandson or grand- daughter who is at a special needs school by buying them an audiobook, they cannot claim that VAT back, even if the organisation could. That child is being held back because the family perhaps do not have the money to buy the audiobook. For every five audiobooks they want to buy, one will be lost to VAT. We need taxes to pay for the schools that I have just alluded to, and for the education system, the health service and various other things. But for the public to have trust in our taxation system, it has to be fair and proportionate, and, in the public’s eye—because we are spending their money on their behalf—it has to be right and proper.
This has been going on for too long. It is worth reading the comments of the Prime Minister when he was the Chancellor:
“That cannot be right. So today I am abolishing the reading tax.”—[Official Report, 11 March 2020; Vol. 673, c. 290.]
That referred specifically to printed books and e-books. Why on earth did it not include audiobooks? I really do not understand.
I will not be able to mention all the relevant organisations, but I have particularly been helped by Scope and the Royal National Institute of Blind People. The House of Commons Library has been fantastically helpful. I did not want the debate to be about me saying, “You’re a nasty, horrible Government, because you are not doing this”. It is not about that. Governments have not addressed this issue since before the current Government came in.
Things get left out when you are in government, and you think, “I wish I had done that.” I am leaving this House whenever the next general election comes, and I do not want to leave with a few things still on my bucket list that I wish I had done more about, perhaps when I was the Minister. I wish I had kicked harder when I was the disabilities Minister, particularly against my Treasury colleagues, so I am going to kick now for people who are suffering this 20% tax through no fault of their own, which surely has to be morally and ethically wrong.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma, and as they say, “Follow that!” The previous contribution was a passionate and informed speech by someone who really understands the difficulties that the tax on audiobooks represents to some people. The right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning), whom I congratulate on securing the debate, might not be legally qualified, as he said, but he certainly knows what he is talking about. I followed his argument carefully, and I love the idea of him ticking something off his bucket list. Any kind of persuasion that can be used to get rid of the tax is well worth using.
One of the reasons why I enjoy Westminster Hall debates is that they tend to be less contentious. They tend to be a meeting of minds, with people who are interested coming together to try to solve a common problem, which is not something that too many of our constituents see too often.
I also want to thank a number of organisations, especially the RNIB. In my time in this place, I have also been involved in the Axe the Reading Tax campaign, which led to the abolition of the tax on e-books. It is an aberration—an unintended consequence—that there is still a tax on audiobooks. I love audiobooks. I am a voracious reader—not of anything mind-blowingly interesting, I must say, but it is a great way to relax—and I know that many other people, especially those with visual impairment, dyslexia or other conditions, get great joy out of losing themselves in a good book for a few hours on an afternoon like today. There is nothing nicer.
Audiobooks benefit younger people, including people studying. I have to confess—I may have to ask Hansard not to record this, although I know it will—that I cannot read Dickens. I can read lots of older authors who are considered fantastic—I love Hardy—but I cannot read Dickens. I was required to read a Dickens novel for an Open University course I was doing, and I thought, “I can’t do that,” but an audiobook was my answer. I love listening to someone reading Dickens to me, but I cannot read him myself, so there are sometimes good educational benefits. If people who struggle to read can access the literature in a different form, it may pique their interest in reading. We all know that everyone, especially young people—and especially nowadays—benefits from sitting down quietly and absorbing things in a way that does not involve playing video games and killing people online.
It is really important that people with visual impairment, dyslexia or other medical conditions that require them to read in a different way are not excluded. I listened very carefully to the right hon. Gentleman, and there are real issues in trying to circumnavigate who is eligible for some kind of exemption. That is why in this case—in many other cases too, but especially this one—I plead with the Minister to make it a universal exemption. In other words, people should not have to prove that they cannot access books in any other way. The tax should be gone, because accessing literature is important for everyone.
Sir Mike Penning
The hon. Lady is making a very important point that I probably did not express very well in my speech. Asking people to prove their disability may exclude a whole tranche of people. That sort of vetting would be so negative for so many people that they just would not do it. I agree completely that a general relaxation of VAT is the only way forward.
Marion Fellows
I totally agree, and the right hon. Gentleman expressed it much better than I was able to.
Reading has many mental health benefits, and there is a clear link between reading and improved wellbeing. Given that the cost of living crisis has led to soaring rates of stress, anxiety and depression, there are clear benefits to making audiobooks more affordable. Norway— I frequently refer to small, independent nations in other debates, although I do not do so on this occasion for any other reason—has scrapped VAT on audiobooks altogether.
The National Literacy Trust says that two in five audiobook listeners are children, and young people said that listening to an audiobook or podcast got them interested in reading books. Something that encourages children to read has to be good. Most children and young people who enjoy listening say that they also enjoy reading, compared with children who do not enjoy listening. Introducing children and young people to reading in a way that they find engaging and enjoyable is a vital means of improving literacy. I have grandchildren, and they love listening to stories on the BBC or through the fancy machine that I bought one of them for Christmas last year. It encourages them to think about books in a positive way. Many more children would benefit if there were no tax on audiobooks. Reducing VAT on audiobooks is essential to ensure that young people especially listen to books.
I want to ask the Minister a question—the RNIB asked me to ask her this, so I will. Has she evaluated the cost of extending the VAT exemption to those who are blind, partially sighted or have print disabilities? Has anything been done on that? As well as that question from the RNIB, I would like to ask a further question: how much would it cost to just remove the tax entirely?
I do not think I need to go on further because the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead covered this topic extremely effectively. I cannot find an argument against this, so I am going let the Opposition spokesperson speak and listen carefully to what the Minister has to say on this very important topic.
Cost of Living
Marion Fellows Excerpts(1 year, 7 months ago)
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Douglas Ross
Let me be clear. The sole Labour MP from Scotland is in the Chamber. There are six Scottish Conservative MPs and, in huge parts of Scotland, the Scottish Conservatives are the greatest challengers to the SNP. We proved it in 2017, we proved it in 2019 and we will prove it again in 2024.
I was also making the point about the biggest issue—[Interruption.] Well, Labour Members are speaking a lot. I am very interested in how they will vote today. I am not sure whether they will support the Government amendment or the SNP motion. Or will they do what they normally do: sit on the fence and not take a position? We will find out quite soon. [Interruption.] I am happy to give way to the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland Secretary. No? We will see how it goes at decision time.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Could I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that decision time happens in the Scottish Parliament? Maybe you are there more often than you are here.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. We have got to stop addressing people directly. The hon. Lady is very experienced and knows how she should address people. We cannot have these conversations going on down the far end of the Chamber.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
The cost of living crisis affects disabled people far more than it does the general population. I make no bones about repeating parts of the speech that I made this morning in Westminster Hall, because I think that they bear repetition. I have had numerous briefings from a variety of disability organisations telling me that this Government have continuously failed disabled people, their carers and their families; that they are tinkering around the edges of a cost of living crisis that is affecting millions of people across the UK; and that the impact of this crisis affects those with disabilities, their carers and their families even more seriously.
This morning, I opened my iPad and the first story that I read in the news was about a man stealing formula milk for his baby, because his wife and he could no longer continue to dilute the formula that they gave to their baby. I wish that this was an isolated incident but, as many here today will no doubt testify, this is not just a feckless couple who are doing it all wrong; this is real life in the UK today, and it is even worse for disabled households.
Scope’s recent “Disability Price Tag” report showed that in 2023, the cost of being disabled has risen to £975 per month for a disabled household. That figure includes disability benefits such as personal independence payment, which was designed to offset the additional costs associated with being disabled. It is a £300 per month increase on the 2016-17 figures, when the additional costs were £675. Scope has recently warned that the figure could increase to £1,122 per month if it is updated to accommodate the inflationary costs for the period 2022-23.
The bottom line is that this Government’s support for those with disabilities has been wholly inadequate throughout the cost of living crisis. Disability Rights UK has said that the cost of living payments that this Government have given “don’t touch the sides.”
Dr Whitford
The two welfare Acts in 2012 and 2016 really changed social security across the UK. Does my hon. Friend agree that one big failure was not to do cumulative impact assessments? What has been the impact on a disabled woman who is a lone parent with three children of being hit by changes to disability benefit, the two-child limit, the benefit cap and the benefit freeze?
Marion Fellows
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Government do not take into account real lived experiences and people with multiple differences, such as being a woman, being disabled and being a single parent. It just is not good enough.
Disabled people often face higher costs for their gas and electricity. Many disabled people say that they need more heating to stay warm—most of us here can recognise that—and others say that they have to use extra electricity to charge up items of assistive technology. My parliamentary assistant went to a drop-in session and came back to my office almost in tears, having spoken to a parent who requires three separate machines to keep their child alive overnight, but who could not afford to pay the associated electricity costs. Even with the cap that the Government have tried to put on electricity prices, the extra £150 does not help.
Disabled people have been suffering for years, and if we give someone a percentage of a very small amount, it is still a very small increase. According to the professional association for social work and social workers, 7 million people—almost half of those living in poverty in the UK—are either disabled or live with someone with a disability. The Trussell Trust says that half of those using food banks are disabled.
I know that the Government do make some effort—I congratulate the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, whom I spoke to this morning—but they do not get the bigger picture. When something like this cost of living crisis rears its ugly head, it drives the most vulnerable in our society into further debt and further difficulty. Something that I have not yet mentioned is that anyone with a food allergy or anyone who requires special food is in an even worse state during this cost of living crisis.
The SNP has consistently called on the Government to uplift universal credit—to increase it by £25 per week—and extend it to all means-tested legacy benefits. I refer to those people who went through the covid-19 pandemic and got no additional costs. That is just not right and we need to look at it. The Government need to do their job properly and actually help people.
The Scottish Government are trying to make things better. Our adult disability payment and the child payment, which has recently been doubled and will hopefully be increased even more, help families and disabled people much more than what is happening in the rest of the UK. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) has said, there is a cost to this, which is that folk like me pay more tax. I have yet to meet a constituent who tells me that they object to paying more tax to help folk less well off than themselves. It may just be that Motherwell and Wishaw is a beacon of light, but I do not think so. The Motherwell and Wishaw constituency is built on old mining communities—coal and steel communities—and the people there tend to know what it is like to be in poverty, but they also know that helping each other is the sign of a civilised society.
The health and disability White Paper raises the spectre of more disabled people facing sanctions. Can we really believe that, in the 21st century, we are going to sanction disabled people? They will have to move on to universal credit, and then not only will they not get what they are entitled to, but any increases will be barred under that punitive regime. This Government are also very bad at signposting. Let me cite as an example pension credit, the uptake of which has been disgraceful.
I am watching my time carefully, but I will briefly reflect on what the Prime Minister was doing today with the Farm to Fork summit at No. 10. That seems to me a lamentable effort to mitigate the disaster that has been Brexit for the economy and for the food supply chain. The Government were warned often during the Brexit debates, many of which I was able to attend.
It is not good enough. Scotland needs and wants to go back into the European Union. Many people in Scotland still believe that is the best way forward for this country and we want to follow the example of countries such as France that put blocks on prices to keep things cheaper for people during a cost of living crisis. This country is in a terrible state. Scotland is in a terrible state in terms of people suffering with the cost of living.
It is almost inconceivable that the Lib Dems and the Labour party are backing a hard Tory Brexit. They do not want to say how awful it has been for people right across the UK and what it has done for food prices—
Marion Fellows
I will leave it to the hon. Lady to correct me later, when she finds time.
Lastly, it is really important that this Government reflect on the fact that a society is judged on how it treats its most vulnerable people. On that measure, this Government are failing.
High Street Bank Closures and Banking Hubs
Marion Fellows Excerpts(1 year, 7 months ago)
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Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I think that I am about to reiterate a lot of what has already been said, but I think it is worth saying again. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) on securing this really important debate. Before I start, I should declare an interest: I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on post offices. I do not think that I technically have to declare that, but I do know a fair bit about post offices as a result.
Scotland has been hit harder by bank closures than anywhere else in the UK. Scotland is geographically bigger than any region of England or any other nation in the UK, and consequently it has a very spread-out population. Because of that spread, bank closures can be more damaging to us, which is why it is shocking that last year’s Scottish Affairs Committee report found that Scotland has also lost a greater share of bank branches than any other country in the UK. That is diminishing the ability of people to access cash and other banking services. Since 2015, 53% of Scotland’s bank branches have closed, which is the highest percentage loss of all the nations in the UK. In 2009, 56% of transactions were in cash, but today’s cash payments represent only 17% of transactions. Despite that drop, cash remains the second most frequently used form of payment, second only to debit cards.
Wendy Morton
We talk a lot about services and access to cash. Does the hon. Lady agree that for people who are on a fixed budget and for whom managing money is difficult, having cash makes that very tricky job just that little bit easier? They can see what they have in their purse, wallet or pocket in front of them. That is why I think—and I hope she agrees—that that is another reason why the banking service and access to cash and advice, particularly at a time of cost of living challenges, are even more important.
Marion Fellows
I absolutely agree with the right hon. Member. If someone is poor, they cannot afford to run up bank charges. They cannot afford to be overdrawn. I am old enough to remember my mother having pots of money—some was used for this, and some was used for that, but if it was not there, we could not spend it. It is a better way to keep oneself in the black altogether.
Before 2021, about six branches a month were closing in Scotland, but since 2021 that has increased to about eight a month. Post offices are also now closing: between 2011 and 2021, we lost 112 post offices to closure in Scotland alone.
Kirsten Oswald
My hon. Friend is making a really important point about both banks and post offices potentially being lost to communities. Does she agree that when banks close and abdicate their responsibility, their suggestion that post offices will simply take over their services is unfortunate and unacceptable? It is as if the banks think they are not at all accountable. That is not how we should address this.
Marion Fellows
Absolutely. Banks are allowed to say, “Well, it is okay if we close, because there is a post office nearby.” That will not always be the case, as more and more sub-postmasters struggle. I will come on to that later.
The head of policy at Age Concern Scotland has noted:
“These closures often hit older customers hardest, leaving them cut off from vital services and making it harder for them to manage their money...As we battle through this cost of living crisis it is more important than ever that older people can access their money as cash, for free, and use it whenever they need to.”
The number of cash machines that are closing is disgraceful. For example, in my local area in Lanarkshire we have lost nearly 100 cash machines in four years. In July 2018, Lanarkshire had 650 cash machines but that had fallen to 561 by last February. And the really important point is that the number of free-to-use ATMs in my area had dropped by 555 to 426. That means that the only ATMs that people can access are ones that charge them for taking out their own money; they are paying a poverty premium. That is ludicrous and it is really affecting people on a daily basis.
As I have said, for years banks have said, “It’s okay if we close our local banks, because there will always be post offices nearby.” However, as I have also already said, post office closures have picked away at their number, too. What will the Department do to protect network and community services that are run through post offices, especially in relation to people who cannot get to banks?
Given the different ways of running post offices, it is really difficult to tell how many sub-postmasters who have taken on banking to a great degree are now struggling. I do not know whether folk here are aware of this, but 70% of the members of the National Federation of SubPostmasters are only earning the national minimum wage, despite the good work that they do in providing post office services and now banking services. That figure came out before the cost of living crisis, so the situation will be even worse now.
It is also very difficult for Post Office Ltd to encourage people to take on post offices or sub-post offices because of the Horizon scandal. The other thing is that the Post Office lozenge—the sign that we are all very familiar with—goes outside a building and says, “Post Office”, but inside that particular building there might only be a drop and collect service for parcels. So, people think that there is a post office where there is not one.
On banking transactions, many Members have already said that many local businesses now use local sub-post offices to pay in takings in cash. That is important, because it keeps money in the local area and it really keeps some high streets going. However, last year new regulations to combat money laundering were introduced by the Financial Conduct Authority—actually, I have found it difficult to find out if it was entirely the fault of the FCA or UK Finance. Recently, it has been very difficult for local businesses. There are no banks, so they take their money to the post office, but a limit was imposed on how much each business could deposit.
I am very pleased to say that last month the FCA noticed that a more tailored approach should be taken by banks for cash deposits by business customers, on the basis of expected business customer activity. However, that also links back to the problem that sub-postmasters have, because they were losing money as customers could not deposit all of their takings and many customers then had to travel many miles to be able to deposit their money safely. I am hopeful that, when this issue is properly sorted out, a tailored approach will allow local business owners to go back in and carry out their business the way they did before.
Real clarity is needed on banking hubs. I have visited the banking hub in Cambuslang, and one is to be opened quite near my constituency in Carluke, hopefully reasonably soon. The building in Cambuslang was fantastic. The way it works is that each bank that has signed up sends a representative to the banking hub once a week to give business advice. As many Members have pointed out, people go to banks not just to take out money; they need advice, help with filling in forms, and other things like that. Those things were being done in the hub. I spoke to many customers that day, and they were very happy with the service given. It was a pilot programme, and it is still unclear what effect it had on the local post office branch, so we have to bear that in mind. The NFSP is concerned about the fact that there is no third-party oversight of the banking hub recruitment process. It is not known how those who gained the right to run the banking hubs were selected. I have already written to LINK about that, and I am awaiting a response.
Consumers are able to access cash at a post office only if their bank has signed up to the banking framework agreement. Which? has raised concerns about the long-term viability of the agreement, as it is voluntary and there is a time limit on it—I think the last one to which banks signed up was for three years. Barclays bank originally did not sign up, which was quite a loss for its local customers. I am calling for access to cash at a post office to be placed on a firmer and more sustainable footing in areas where local cash needs are unmet. Can the Minister comment on that, and update us on where we are going?
Returning to the post office argument, if banking hubs have an impact on local post offices, then that is something that we have to be very careful about. Part of the difficulty is that the Treasury and the Department for Business and Trade are both involved, and there is not a great deal of communication between them. I know it is getting sightly better, but this Government have for many years almost had a silo mentality, in which one Department did not really know what the other was doing. That is to the detriment of people who have to use banks and post offices—if they are still there. I would really welcome the Minister’s comments on that.
I again thank the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills and all the other Members who have spoken. This is a real ongoing problem, and like my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald), I have stood here to speak on the subject innumerable times. I have come at this problem from different angles, and have tried to say something different each time, but hat is proving harder and harder. It is time that the Government got a real handle on the issue, and started to protect consumers more, as well as those who cannot use digital banking. That is not just older people, though many older people struggle with either bad broadband or the inability to handle new technology. We need a joined-up approach from the Government to ensure that people can still access banks, post offices and cash.
Co-operatives, Mutuals and Friendly Societies Bill (First sitting)
Marion Fellows ExcerptsWednesday 30th November 2022
(2 years ago)
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Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I am overawed by the experience of the other Members of this Committee. I welcome the questions that have been asked and I agree with the hon. Member for Preston that it is disappointing that not all of his ideas have been taken forward, and I put on the record our support for this Bill.
James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve on this Committee with you as Chair, Mr Mundell. I begin by thanking and warmly congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Preston on securing cross-party support for this important Bill.
Britain has a long tradition of fostering the principles of co-operation and mutual support. The histories of the Co-operative party and the Labour party in this country are closely entwined. That relationship was institutionalised in 1927, when the Co-operative party and the Labour party entered an electoral agreement to stand joint candidates in elections. Nearly a hundred years later, that agreement is going strong—as one of many Labour and Co-operative MPs, I can attest to that.
To this day, both parties continue to make the case for co-operatives and friendly and mutual societies. I have always been proud to work with the Co-operative party to promote the co-operative businesses that are leading the way in improving equality and productivity at work. As a shadow Treasury Minister, I am keenly aware of the role that co-operatives and mutuals play in trade sectors as diverse as agriculture, renewable energy, retrofitting, creative industries, manufacturing, distribution, wholesale, retail and financial services.
Those British businesses play such an important role in supporting working people across the country in gaining greater control over their lives. In the financial services sector for example, building societies provide people with a low-risk, member-focused banking alternative and research has shown that trust in building societies is consistently high. Building societies are also typically well capitalised, making the sector more resilient to financial shocks and better able to lend and plan for the long term.
At the same time, credit unions serve 1.9 million members and 2.1 million depositors across the UK. Currently, around £1.7 billion has gone out in loans to credit union members, providing a crucial lifeline to the most financially vulnerable in society and preventing people from turning to loan sharks and high-interest loans.
With the right support, the co-operative sector has the potential to provide solutions to many of the crises and challenges we face as a country, such as the cost of living crisis or climate change. But despite the distinctly British character and history of mutually and co-operatively owned companies, and the important role they play in promoting financial responsibility and resilience among their members, the sector’s needs have too often been ignored. The number of mutual credit unions has fallen by more than 20% since 2016. Ordinary families have paid the price, with many forced into the arms of unethical lenders. That will only get worse as the cost of living crisis deepens.
Unlike the United States and many other European countries, the UK is uniquely lacking in mutually or co-operatively owned regional banks, which could play a crucial role in providing the affordable credit that small and medium-sized businesses need to reach net zero. The growth of co-operatives in this country is being held back by a legislative and regulatory framework that is not designed for co-operative businesses. Given their unique structure, co-operatives, mutuals and friendly societies are often excluded from traditional investment methods.
Sadly, as we have heard, the sector is also under threat from demutualisation. There was celebration across the co-operative and labour movements last year when members voted to reject the controversial takeover of the insurer Liverpool Victoria by the private equity firm Bain Capital, yet demutualisation remains a real and present threat to the sector. That is why the provisions contained in the Bill are so important and will help to ensure that mutual capital is maintained for its intended purpose.
We welcome the Government’s support for the Bill, and we would like to use this opportunity to urge the Government to consider wider reform, such as giving co-operatives more freedom to issue perpetual capital to fund investment, to secure the future of this important sector. The Financial Services and Markets Bill, which is currently passing through the House, contains some welcome and long overdue provisions, such as enabling credit unions to offer a wider range of products, but if the Treasury wants to unlock the economic potential of the sector, it could go much further. That is why I hope that, alongside supporting this Bill, the Government will consider supporting the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) to the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which would give the regulators—the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority—an explicit remit to report on how they have considered specific business models, including mutuals and co-operatives, to ensure they are given parity of esteem with standard providers.
It is time to radically reform the rules governing the sector, to give greater flexibility and to allow mutuals and co-operative financial services to grow. The Labour party and the co-operative movement share a commitment to building a society in which power and wealth are shared fairly. That is why the Labour party and the Co-operative party have agreed an important ambition for government: we will double the size of the co-operative and mutual sector in the UK. We recognise that the Bill represents an important step toward achieving that aim, and we will be giving it our full support today.
The Growth Plan
Marion Fellows Excerpts(2 years, 2 months ago)
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Kwasi Kwarteng
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. By accelerating infrastructure projects, we can generate economic growth, generate achievement, enthuse the supply chain and get Britain moving again.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
The current Chancellor said in his statement:
“We want this country to be an entrepreneurial share-owning democracy.”
I extend an invitation to him to come to Motherwell town centre and Wishaw Cross, and try to explain this pie-in-the-sky ideology to folk in my constituency who are scared to go to sleep at night in case they cannot wake up and keep their houses the next day or feed their families. How does he think this ideology will help those constituents of mine?
Kwasi Kwarteng
It is not ideology; it is a practical focus on growing the economy, so we have a more prosperous country. That is what Governments should be doing. The socialism of the Opposition parties—I do not know whether the hon. Lady represents that—is not going to work.
Delivery of Public Services
Marion Fellows Excerpts(2 years, 5 months ago)
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Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to conclude the Back-Bench contributions to this debate. This Tory Government’s catastrophic Brexit and austerity agenda are fast pushing the UK economy into recession, as evidenced by the fact that the UK has the slowest growth of any G7 economy, according to the OECD. The chief economist at the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has been highly critical of the length of time it took the UK Government to act to help people with the additional financial pressures caused by inflation. She noted:
“Inflation continues to hit highs not seen since the early 1980s, heaping more pressure on millions of families who were already struggling…The support package announced last month shows the Chancellor is finally grasping the scale of the crisis. The continuing rise in food prices means the decision in April not to uprate benefits in line with inflation has left low-income households…facing a difficult”—
really difficult—three months until they receive their first payment in July.
It is extremely reckless and frustrating that the UK Government have decided to bring forward legislation that deliberately sets them on an entirely avoidable collision course with the EU. Risking a disastrous trade war in the middle of a cost of living crisis is unthinkable and indefensible. This news has been met with dismay by Scottish businesses, which stand to face months of uncertainty in a year with record increases in their input prices. Scotland has a direct interest in the Northern Ireland protocol, particularly with regard to trade and border control, yet despite repeated requests, the UK Government have shown absolutely no willingness to engage with the Scottish Government on those issues.
It is staggering that Labour and the Liberal Democrats remain committed to Brexit, even as it causes vast damage. Last week, the Resolution Foundation put out a report, “The Big Brexit: An assessment of the scale of change to come from Brexit”, which noted that the long-term aggregate impact of Brexit
“will be to reduce household incomes as a result of a weaker pound, and lower investment and trade.”
Scotland’s food and drink sector has borne the brunt of a hard Tory Brexit. In 2019, Scottish exports were growing consistently in all directions—to the rest of the UK, the EU and the rest of the world. We now know that Scotland’s total trade with the EU was 16% lower in 2021 than in 2019, and Scotland’s trade with non-EU countries fell by only 4% in the same period. An Office for National Statistics report found that Northern Ireland’s GDP grew by 1.4% from July to September 2021, compared with gains of only 0.9% and 0.6% in Scotland and England respectively. That may well be due to Northern Ireland having continued access to the single market.
Brexit is hindering the UK’s potential as a key 21st-century trader, and is actively disadvantaging UK producers and businesses. The UK’s new relationship with the EU implies an increase in trade costs of 10.8% for exports to the EU and 11% for imports from the EU, and those figures rise to more than 16% when accounting for the fact that the EU is likely to integrate further in future years. It is the SNP’s view that rejoining the EU at the earliest opportunity as an independent country represents the best future for Scotland. I am happy that more and more people in Scotland are coming round to that point of view.
Transport is being run into the ground, especially for people who travel by train or plane. There are vast queues at Dover, with people forced to wait in unsanitary conditions, due to Brexit delays and mitigating measures have been limited by the fact that the Transport Secretary—
Marion Fellows
No, I am not going to take interventions. I need to finish and allow the Front Benchers to fight it out.
With the UK Government’s failure to back a Bill from my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) to absolutely outlaw fire and rehire, they have shown that they actually have no time for this. They are encouraging this abhorrent practice—P&O being only one example—and we are now seeing this being carried out in other areas of the economy. Fire and rehire is a shame on this country and it is a stain on this Government.
I understand that I do not have much time so I want to move on briefly to talk about passports, or the lack of them, and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. We have heard consistent examples from across the Chamber today and I have many examples of issues with passports. The one sticking in my craw right now is that of a father who is terminally ill and cannot get a passport to go and visit his daughter. I cannot do anything about this because there are two days of queries, and I have to sit and wait before I can go down to the hub. I have been down at the hub many times, and I have nothing but admiration for those who work there, but they should not be there. There should be no necessity for such a hub, and we should get this whole business of passports sorted out. It was an accident waiting to happen—it did not just appear out of nowhere —and there should have been forward planning for this.
The DVLA has been a thorn in my side for many years. One of the biggest parts of that, which has had an impact recently, is the fact that many of my constituents are applying to have their licence returned, but are left unattended in the vocational doctors queue. It is not unusual; I have had numerous complaints about this from HGV drivers over the years. They are signed off as fit to go back to work, but there is a shortage of doctors at the DVLA to sort this out. That also needs to be sorted.
What is the Prime Minister’s answer to these hard-working Government Departments? I do not know whether I can say this, Mr Deputy Speaker, but the word “arse” is a good Anglo-Saxon word. The Prime Minister has threatened to “privatise the arse” out of Government agencies—
Marion Fellows
Oh, right then: the Prime Minister has threatened to privatise a body part out of Government agencies, including the DVLA and the Passport Office as a result of the public facing lengthy waits for vital documents.
This Government have to go, this Prime Minister has to go, and when Scotland is an independent country in Europe, we will be much better off.
Bank Branch Closures
Marion Fellows Excerpts(2 years, 9 months ago)
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Ms Qaisar
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and what he is saying is important. Of course, when I was talking about older Members, I was not referring to him at all. [Laughter.] At that point, I will swiftly move on.
Throughout the course of the pandemic, we have witnessed the need for a more digitally connected society, both for work and socialising. Banking, however, is not excluded from that. While there has been a sharp increase in the uptake of digital banking, simultaneously we have also seen a mass exodus of banks from our high streets. This poses huge concerns for those who are not digitally literate, have no access to technology or are simply uncomfortable with the transition away from cash. An important point to remember is that where some of these people are not using digital wallets, online banking or digital banking it is through no fault of their own; they might have financial struggles that mean they are unable to get access to mobile data or wi-fi. That is hindering their access and we are not necessarily talking about people from an older age demographic. The 2019 Access to Cash final report found that more than 8 million people would struggle directly as a consequence of a cashless society. Cash is therefore essential to ensuring that vulnerable groups such as older people or low-income households, who often have limited access to digital banking, are not excluded.
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
As the granny of the House, I have to say that I have an electronic wallet on my phone. However, does my hon. Friend agree that it is about time the Government brought forward their access to cash Bill, which has been promised for quite a long time?
Ms Qaisar
I thank my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour for raising that important point. She has raised it on a number of occasions and I fully support her in all her comments.
While we are trying to become this more digitally inclusive and digitally literate society, there are projects going on in that regard. For example, in my constituency, a project funded by Connecting Scotland, a Scottish Government initiative, has been working alongside the community to help people to get online and into the digital age at Lorne Gardens retirement complex in Salsburgh. The project supplies elderly constituents with 200 digital devices and mi-fi boxes so that on Tuesday nights tenants can meet to share skills with an aim to building up relationships and increasing their confidence when using their devices. I am delighted that projects such as this are providing older constituents with vital digital skills that could be used for navigating online banking. However, this should not detract from the fact that many older people still ultimately prefer traditional methods of banking. The really important point about such projects is that they teach people transferable skills, because once they get online and are able to use digital banking, they can use those skills to navigate other websites—and maybe not become too addicted on online shopping.
Lucy Frazer
I am going to carry on because the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts, who secured the debate, made many points and I want to respond to them.
The Financial Conduct Authority has also set out its expectations of firms when deciding whether to reduce the number of their physical branches or the number of free-to-use ATMs. FCA guidance states that firms are expected to carefully consider the impact of a planned closure on their customers’ everyday banking and cash needs.
The hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Reading East (Matt Rodda) talked about the importance of going into a physical location for those such as the elderly and the disabled. As well as the innovations around mobile and online banking, there are alternative options to access everyday banking services via telephone banking and also, importantly, via the Post Office. The Post Office plays a significant role in servicing people’s everyday banking needs across the UK. The Post Office banking framework allows 99% of personal banking and 95% of business customers to deposit cheques, check their balance, and withdraw and deposit cash at the 11,500 Post Office branches right across the UK. As the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts pointed out, it is important that there is somewhere to take that cash, which is why the Post Office provides such an important service.
Lucy Frazer
I am going to come on now to the point the hon. Lady made about access to cash. Access to cash is one of the services that bank branches and post offices help to deliver, but the Government understand the importance of cash to the daily lives of millions of people across the UK, particularly vulnerable people, which is exactly why we have committed to legislate to protect access to cash.
Last year, the Government consulted on further proposals for new laws to make sure people need to travel only a reasonable distance to pay in or take out cash. The Government’s proposals are intended to support the continued use of cash in people’s daily lives and help enable local businesses to continue accepting cash by protecting deposit facilities. We are carefully considering the responses to the consultation as we develop legislation and will set out next steps in due course. Encouragingly, following the Government’s commitment to legislate, firms are working together through the Access to Cash Action Group to develop new initiatives to provide shared services.
I wish to touch on another way for people to access the banking system in person. The hon. Member for Reading East mentioned banking hubs. The introduction of shared banking hubs is an exciting development. Last year saw the successful pilot of the initiative, with two bank hubs offering counter services run by the Post Office and dedicated spaces for customers to see community bankers from their own bank. The findings of the pilot revealed that, as of October 2021, £4.65 million of cash had been deposited at the two pilot sites. Almost a quarter of local businesses said the pilots meant they no longer needed to close their shop to get or deposit cash. As a result, the two bank hubs have been extended until at least the spring of 2023.
Building on the experience gained in the pilots, last December the industry announced its intention to introduce five more Post Office bank hubs in Acton, Brixham, Angus, Knaresborough and Syston. The bank hubs are a commercial initiative, meaning it is for industry to play a key role in the provision of appropriate facilities for customers.
At the beginning of her speech, the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts talked about HSBC’s announcement of the closure of some banks. I reassure her that all the branches that are to close have a post office within 1.5 miles for everyday banking transactions.
Lucy Frazer
I am going to conclude because I fear I am running out of time.
The Government understand what is at stake here and are working hard to do right by communities up and down the country. Banking is changing in ways to which industry can and should respond but, as I have said, it is also right that the impact of branch closures on people and communities is understood, considered and, where possible, mitigated, so that everyone, whoever they are and wherever they live, continues to have access to the services they need.
Question put and agreed to.