Sri Lanka
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Naseby
My Lords, first, I thank colleagues who wish to say something about Sri Lanka this afternoon. I appreciate that very much indeed. I would like to place on record the fact that the noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Sheikh, are in the sub-continent and send their apologies to the Committee for being unable to be here this afternoon.
As I think the Committee well knows, I have no interests to declare other than the fact that I have been interested in Sri Lanka for 50 years, since I first worked there for the Reckitt and Colman group in 1963. I had absolutely no political interests at all at that time. I have paid two key visits among many. One was in January 2009 at the height of the war, which seemed to me an appropriate time to go, if I may use that phrase, to see exactly what was happening. The second was earlier this year when the peace was firmly established.
This debate is about the LLRC, as I will call it in shorthand. It is not about the Supreme Court and what has happened there, although I will allude to that later in my contribution. A war lasting 30 years or thereabouts is a very long war. A number of colleagues in the House came through the Second World War, which lasted only five years. Change is inevitable when a war ends and Sri Lanka is no different from anywhere else in that respect. However, one thing was different in Sri Lanka. I remember the sheer joy of VE Day, as I am sure do others. Initially, there was a sense of sheer joy in Sri Lanka but it was very quickly clouded by allegations of war crimes and allegations that Sri Lanka had abused certain other international laws. My analysis leads me to the conclusion that one of the key reasons why this happened was that although the Tamil Tigers were defeated on the ground in Sri Lanka, the network that they had set up across the world was still intact, many of the senior operatives were still in place, certainly vast funding was still available, and the propaganda machine was alive and well in the sense that the propaganda was still being pumped out. That affected particularly the million or so members of the Tamil diaspora who had left because of the conflict. They were clearly leant on—we know this from the evidence gathered in many countries—and as a result western Governments understandably felt that they had to listen. Whether or not they felt that they had to act is another matter.
In my view, if today’s debate is to do any good, we need to look impartially at what has happened. The LLRC was set up on 15 May 2010, one year after the defeat of the Tigers and the end of the war. The very fact that it was set up deserves a tick as that was a good action. The more than 1,000 oral and more than 5,000 written submissions indicate that an awful lot of people responded to it. The key point is that the report was published in full, is extremely thorough and is based on the key principles of restorative justice rather than retributive justice. Those of us who know south and south-east Asia well will appreciate that it very much reflects the philosophy of the five principles of Buddhism and indeed the principles of Hinduism. People of real eminence in that society were appointed to the relevant body. Sri Lanka has been criticised for doing that and for not inviting international observers to participate. However, we chose to have “good eminent people” from our own Civil Service, and people from that sort of background, on our Chilcot commission. The report we are discussing was produced just over a year ago, whereas three years on we still do not have the Chilcot report and none of us really knows when it will come out.
The other people who were making noises at that time were the human rights groups, the International Crisis Group, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty. Sadly, each refused to give any evidence at all on the grounds that they did not like the make-up and, in their view, the independence of the eminent persons. I think that that is a great pity and shows non-objectivity on the behalf of those groups. I am astonished that Amnesty in Canada has now accepted funds from the LTTE. I find it quite extraordinary that a human rights group should receive funds from the LTTE. That is its right, I suppose, but it somewhat undermines its moral standing. Now those same three groups are chasing up the Sri Lankan Government and saying that they are acting far too slowly to implement the recommendations. And yet—I have done a little bit of research on this—all over the world there are quite a lot of investigations going on into former wars and dictatorships, and some of them are taking an extraordinary length of time. Some of them are taking 11, 12, or 15 years. To take two that we might know a bit more about, one is in Bangladesh, which is again in south Asia, which set up in 2011 an inquiry into what happened in the 1971 war of independence. That has not reported. And, dare I mention it having been PPS in Northern Ireland, the inquiry into Bloody Sunday has now gone on for 40 years and still remains totally unresolved.
So what has happened on the ground? That is by far and away the most important thing. First, when I got there in the end of March, all the way through to the middle of April, there was peace on the ground. There were no bombs; you can travel wherever you like in Sri Lanka, by day and by night, with no security checks. I spoke to a Tamil cook of a friend of mine—my friend is also Tamil—just outside Bentota. He had come down from Jaffna overnight, not requiring any special pass or anything; he booked a ticket in a bus station, got off at Colombo, changed buses, and came along the corridor through to Bentota. Asked by me whether he had had any problems, he said that he had no problems at all and that it was as easy as anything. So life for ordinary people in Sri Lanka is good at the moment. Plus, one has to say, British tourists have responded en masse—in fact, almost too readily in the sense that there is obviously a shortage of hotel accommodation, particularly in the east, where people want to go, and in the north, although they are trying hard to get on and build more hotels. So that is real positive benefit on the ground.
I went to Menik farm, where the 297,000 rescued from the war fled. First, I put on record that I saw the head of ICRC with no one else present and asked him whether ICRC was restricted from going into Menik farm. The answer was no. It is true that certain other UN bodies were restricted but, in my book—as one that has done a number of these types of events—ICRC, or the Red Cross, are the key people. Secondly, my wife is a qualified retired doctor and we looked at the reports on malnutrition to see whether there was malnutrition in those coming into the camp, and there was hardly any at all. I shall not go into the food dimension but I do have data on that. That place is now closed and those 297,000 are now all rehoused, which is pretty good in that time span: near enough 300,000 rehoused in a relatively short period. On top of that, a number of the Muslims, who were ethnically cleansed out of Jaffna by the Tamil Tigers, have also been rehoused.
Demining is happening and I say a big thank you to the UK Government, both the former Labour Government and the coalition Government, for the money given to Halo, which is doing a good job on the ground. I spent a whole day with Halo: the team is very good and I thank DfID and, in particular, the Government. I make a plea that when that work is completed somebody does an analysis on Jaffna’s needs and, in particular, the hospital, which I went to look at in some depth. I would be very happy to prepare a draft paper if that was found to be helpful.
The rehabilitation of combatants has been excellent and there is a good case history. Eleven thousand of them have been rehabilitated, with 260 judicially mandated. Child soldiers, of whom there were 595, are all now back with their families. Land issues are being taken very seriously but are proving very difficult to resolve after 30 years. The situation is not unlike that in England, where if you own a bit of land for 12 years you have legal rights to it; I think that it is 10 years in Sri Lanka. The high-security zone, which I visited, is down to 40% of what it was. It has to remain because of the problems in Tamil Nadu. The country’s massive infrastructure, housing and official language policy are all working well. A great issue has been made of abductions. I have looked at the figures: in 2011 there were 239, with 226 now traced; in 2012 there were 225, with 207 now traced.
Lord Naseby
No, I have been speaking for 10 minutes. I am taking injury time. I am taking my time from the annunciator.
Lord Naseby
With great respect, Lord Deputy Chairman, if a time is up there, it is the time that I am speaking from. I cannot look down here.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
It is the time for the Chamber. I am sorry, but that is what that is showing.
Lord Naseby
With the permission of the Committee, I should like two minutes to wind up.
On the numbers killed, four reports have come out recently. One was produced by the UN Country Team, which was never published. My plea to Her Majesty's Government is to ask for that to be published. That indicated that 7,000 were killed. A satellite analysis by the Americans indicates that fewer than 2,000 were killed within the graves that can be found. The recent census by Tamil teachers, again, indicates that just over 7,000 were killed. There were not 40,000 killed.
The second problem that the Government of Sri Lanka face is the ever-present threat of the LTTE overseas and the propaganda that is put out. However, Sri Lanka is an excellent member of the Commonwealth. It helped the UK in its hour of need at the time of the Falklands. There are those who, I know, want to downgrade the conference, but what greater stimulus can there be to Sri Lanka today to move forward on the areas that still have to be dealt with than to hold this conference? After all, the CPA held its conference back in September, attended by 700 parliamentarians from 54 countries. That went extremely well, as are preparations for the forthcoming conference.
Here we are in the Moses Room. I suggest that we need the wisdom of Solomon and the patience of Job, and let us not forget Kipling’s remarks that,
“A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East”.
Mali
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the UK has regular and frequent discussions with the Algerian Government on the situation in Mali. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary discussed Mali and the Sahel when he met Algeria’s Foreign Minister, Mourad Medelci, in London on 21 November. The Prime Minister’s special representative for the Sahel, Stephen O’Brien, MP, visited Algiers from 6 to 8 December for further discussions on the situation in Mali. Alistair Burt, the FCO Minister for the Middle East and north Africa, also discussed the Sahel with the Algerian Minister for the Overseas Community, Dr Belkacem Sahli, on 29 November.
Lord Risby
My Lords, I declare an interest as the Prime Minister’s trade envoy for Algeria. Given the appalling humanitarian and security crisis in Mali, does my noble friend agree that if at all possible there should be a regional solution to this problem, whether it is done diplomatically or by military means, to resolve what is an increasingly tragic situation? Does my noble friend further agree that, as the bulk of the income obtained by these terrorist fanatics is from the drugs trade and kidnapping, the resolute attitude of the Algerian Government, which is simply not to pay ransoms, should be applauded and appreciated?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, there has to be a regional resolution to this problem. The northern borders of Mali are artificial lines drawn on maps in largely uninhabited areas and these groups clearly go across them with a great deal of ease. The Tuareg, one of the main sets of tribes involved in the conflict, live in southern Algeria, south-western Libya, northern Mali, and so on. Therefore, there has to be a regional solution. This cannot be resolved by one or two states alone.
Lord Chidgey
My Lords, what plans do the Government have to develop stability and security throughout a unitary Mali by advocating that the grievances of the Tuareg should be addressed en route to a democratic unified Mali and by providing succour to the probably 400,000 refugees expected to result from a proposed military intervention by ECOWAS forces?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the figures I have show that there is something approaching that number of displaced people—those who are internally displaced or who have moved across the borders already. Therefore, we already have a rather desperate situation. Reinstating a unified Mali is not entirely easy. Mali armed forces as they currently exist are small, weak and underequipped. Nevertheless, some of them are in effect in charge of the Government and have just replaced the Prime Minister.
The Earl of Sandwich
Does the Minister agree that there are considerable British interests in Mali, not least through the humanitarian organisations? Would it not be better to encourage and reinforce civil society and better governance in Mali itself rather than even contemplating armed intervention?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the noble Earl knows well that encouraging the growth of civil society is a slow and long-term business. We have a rather immediate crisis which, if I may remind noble Lords, is partly an unanticipated result of the collapse of the Gaddafi regime. Many of those who sparked off the current crisis were Tuareg soldiers in the Libyan army returning from Libya after the fall of Gaddafi with some very effective heavy weapons.
Business of the House
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, 34 speakers have signed up for the European Union debate today. If Back-Bench contributions are kept to around seven minutes each, it would allow the Question for Short Debate to start at around 9 pm and for the House to rise at the target rising time of 10 pm.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
I am most disappointed by that statement. We are discussing some very important matters. To expect Members to confine their remarks to seven minutes and to expect the House to finish by 10 pm, when, since we had a relevant debate, we have had two Bills and the developments in the EU over the past six months at least, is, quite frankly, a disgrace. I was minded to oppose these matters being discussed, but I know that I would be defeated and would therefore be wasting the time of all those speakers, including myself, who wish to speak in the debate. Having made my view known, I assure the House that I will not abide by the seven-minute suggestion when I speak third-to-last tonight.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I recall many years ago interrupting the late Lord Shore as he got into his 26th minute in one debate. I trust the noble Lord will be more modest in his approach.
Civil Service: Permanent Secretaries
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they accept the advice of the Civil Service Commission that the final decision in the appointment of Permanent Secretaries should be made by a selection panel independent of ministers, to safeguard a non-political civil service.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, in view of some of the exaggerated comments in the press in the last few days, it is perhaps best if I quote the statement by the First Civil Service Commissioner earlier this week:
“We agree that Ministers should have significant influence on the appointment of senior civil servants with whom they work closely; and, as more senior jobs are opened up to competition, we have developed a more active role for Ministers in top appointments than is generally understood”.
In paragraph 8 of the accompanying explanatory note on Recruiting Permanent Secretaries: Ministerial Involvement, it says:
“Under the terms of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 the final decision whether or not to appoint the recommended candidate rests with the Prime Minister”.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I am sure that the House is grateful to the noble Lord for reading extracts, but he has been rather selective. The fact is, his right honourable friend Mr Maude is essentially bullying the Civil Service Commission and threatening new legislation in order to give Secretaries of State the power to appoint Permanent Secretaries. Why are the Government going down that route? Do they not accept that it puts the political neutrality of the Civil Service at peril?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we do not. I quote the right honourable Jack Straw, who said:
“I welcome his proposals for greater involvement by Secretaries of State in the appointment of their permanent secretaries”.
He went on to say,
“in each of the three permanent secretary appointments that I made”—
that is, Mr Straw—
“in the Home Office, the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Justice—I insisted that there was a shortlist of at least three candidates from which I should choose. There was not the least allegation that I had acted in a partisan or cronyist way”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/6/12; col. 749.]
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, when I was Secretary of State for Industry, I was faced with a retiring Permanent Secretary. I found the names produced for me by the authorities unacceptable but I had hugely admired a senior civil servant from another department. I arranged that he should be appointed. He was one of the most successful Permanent Secretaries in the Department of Industry. A Minister’s involvement in this is absolutely essential.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the relationship between a Minister and his or her Permanent Secretary is clearly key to the effective working of government. Some Members of this House will be old enough to remember the relationship between Dame Evelyn Sharp and Richard Crossman which was famously bitterly hostile. We do not want to go back to that sort of hostile arrangement again.
Baroness Prashar
My Lords, the explanatory note by the Civil Service Commission clearly states the appropriate involvement of Ministers in the appointment of Permanent Secretaries. It clearly indicates that it has not crossed the line that would in any way jeopardise the impartiality of our Civil Service. Does the Minister accept that the current Administration hold the Civil Service in trust for the next Administration and that nothing must be done to in any way jeopardise its impartiality? I was quite concerned to read the comments of Francis Maude when he said he was determined to increase the involvement of Ministers in appointments. In asking this question, I declare that I was a Civil Service Commissioner from 2000 to 2005 and had to resist similar efforts by the previous Administration.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Prime Minister in speaking to the Liaison Committee in July made clear that he holds very strongly to the Northcote-Trevelyan principles. But one has to modernise to some extent and going further into his speech I was interested by his talking about the gradual opening up of the question of accountability. We are talking about Civil Service accountability to Ministers but also ministerial and official accountability to Parliament. There are some interesting long-term issues here which we need to discuss further. To quote him again:
“I would like to see a gradual opening up of this accountability, with Ministers being given more discretion about permanent secretary appointments, and Select Committees being able to see more civil servants, particularly on implementation and major project issues. Those would be sensible reforms. Let’s do that and see how that works before taking another leap”.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, there was a brief discussion on Radio 4 this morning about whether we should follow the American precedent of fracking oil shale. Does the Minister agree that to follow the other American precedent of politicising the senior branches of the public service would seriously undermine the recommendations of the Northcote-Trevelyan report of 1853 for a permanent Civil Service which, I suggest, has done this country and Ministers a considerable benefit since then?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I entirely agree with that. I felt that Sue Cameron’s article in the Telegraph this morning, clearly based on some rather hostile briefing by, I suspect, retired civil servants, goes enormously over the top in suggesting that ambassadorships were about to be given to donors. We have after all in the past occasionally had political appointments to ambassadorships. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, was one and very successful. There was also Peter Jay and Christopher, Lord Soames. We have held to the principles of Northcote-Trevelyan on political impartiality and we will continue to do so.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, my noble friend has touched on the relationship of Ministers to Parliament. I wonder if he would just reinforce and reiterate the point that all Permanent Secretaries are answerable and accountable to Parliament for the whole of their departments, including of course the performance of the head and leadership of that department. Has he noted the suggestion that Secretaries of State might be subjected to confirmatory hearings by departmental Select Committees? Would he confirm that it is the Government’s view that, in this relationship, it is the Secretary of State to the department that is responsible to Parliament? So would it not be more appropriate for the Secretary of State on appointment to be subjected to a confirmatory hearing?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I will duck answering that question. The question of Civil Service accountability to Parliament is one of those issues now in play which does raise some very large and long-term issues and will need much further debate.
Lord Soley
I find a lack of clarity in the Minister’s reply. What many of us are looking for, following the comments by Francis Maude, is a very clear statement that Ministers will not be able to override the normal negotiations that take place and insist on having the Permanent Secretary they want, because that politicises it. At the moment, disagreements are usually resolved by discussion between the Civil Service and the Minister. If we have a situation, which Francis Maude seems to want, of Ministers insisting on having their civil servant, then that politicises it. Certainly what I am looking for—and I think many other people are looking for—is a clear statement from a Government Minister that it is not going to happen.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Let me be as clear as I can. The panel is asked to interview those who have applied. It ranks those whom it considers to be above the line in terms of being appointable or not. The issue at stake is whether the Secretary of State, and behind him the Prime Minister and the head of the Civil Service, can change the order of those who are ranked above the line. I recall that, until two years ago, the Prime Minister was able to change the order of those recommended as Archbishop of Canterbury—and on occasion did so, as Margaret Thatcher once famously did. The suggestion that Secretaries of State should not be allowed to at least consider the ranking of those above the line and accepted as appointable by the panel is one that we should consider further.
Lord King of Bridgwater
I am not aware of any complaint from our side of the House about the selection that Mr Jack Straw made on a short list of three which he insisted on having, for which he perfectly properly said that he took final responsibility for his department. Are not those Permanent Secretaries, having been appointed, also entitled to expect that the person who makes the final decision stays in office for slightly more than one year? In the case of both the previous Government and the present Government, can we see a little bit more continuity in Ministers than we have had in recent years?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
The current Government have been doing their best to provide rather greater continuity, particularly in the Ministry of Defence, than the last Government. One has to recognise that this is a difficult relationship. A very good friend of mine who was a senior official under the last Government said to me that if you want to be a senior official with this sort of Government—and he was talking about the last Government—you need always to have in the back of your mind that you could move somewhere else. It is a delicate relationship. We hold to the principles of a permanent Civil Service, but there is unavoidable tension between a Permanent Secretary and a Secretary of State—just as there is in a company between the chief executive and the chairman.
Lobbyists: Register
Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
The consultation document Introducing a Statutory Register of Lobbyists was published earlier this year to gather evidence from experts in the field and members of the public. It asked a number of specific questions, the multiple answers to which are informing policy developments in this area.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
Well, my Lords, it does not sound like much action has been taken. Given that the coalition promised to regulate lobbying through a statutory register—in case the noble Lord needs reminding—can he tell us whether it is going to move on this or is it going to wait for the next big scandal before it does so?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we are certainly intending to move on this but as the noble Baroness will appreciate if she has looked through the replies to the consultation document and the companion report of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in the other place, there is a quite remarkable dissensus among respondents. The Government’s summary of replies to the consultation document remarks at one point, in effect, that a lot of those consulted regard themselves as a legitimate part of the political process but regard everyone else as lobbyists. That is part of the problem. The paid lobbyists are a small part of those with whom we are talking, and they wish charities, think tanks, trade unionists and others also to be included on any register of lobbyists.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the overriding objective must surely be greater transparency? In that regard, while we must obviously avoid excessive complexity because the information has to be accessible and digestible, does he agree that all we really need to know is who is lobbying who about what? The register only goes so far in that respect.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Government have moved some way towards greater transparency in terms of who members of the Government meet. I am amazed by the detail in which I have to account quarterly for who I have met over the previous three months, so at one end we are already being more transparent. Part of the origin of the proposals for a lobbying register during the previous Government was the question of how much money was being paid to these specialist lobbying companies to influence Government. That was the origin of the inquiry. For the first time in my life, I sympathised enormously with the evidence given by the TaxPayers’ Alliance to the inquiry in which it said a narrower definition would be rather better.
Lord Campbell-Savours
When the noble Lord fills in the form that he talks about within the department, does he draw a distinction between official and unofficial engagements and does he register them both?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
Yes, and we have discussed whether I should put down everyone I meet at a party conference. There comes a point where almost the entire political process becomes lobbying. For example, the secretariats of most all-party groups are supported by outside bodies. Are those lobbyists? Is that proper? Should we do away with them? One gets into very deep water quite early on in this field.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, would journalists in the press gallery, who are therefore registered journalists, be allowed also to be registered lobbyists? In other words, could they hold two occupations?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I have to admit that I do not know the answer to that question and will have to write to the noble Lord.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
Does my noble friend agree that if we restricted the activities of lobbyists and it resulted in fewer all-party groups, that would be a very good idea?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
There might be no more cakes and wine, I am afraid. Let us be clear: lobbying is an entirely legitimate part of the political process, which would be poorer if we did not have lobbying. The problem is that we have lobbying from professional companies, advocacy groups—many of which are also charities—the CBI, trade unions and others. It is a very complicated area to try to pin down to a single statutory register.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, when you get a company lobbying, would it be helpful if it were to register on whose behalf it was lobbying, so that when it writes to us, we know who it is lobbying for?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, that is the narrowest definition and where the Government started. The replies to the consultation have taken us much wider than many of us originally intended to be taken. Certainly, the concern—and I am very struck by this in the documents that I am looking at—and perception that there is undue lobbying is very much about large sums of money being paid to professional companies, very often by foreign Governments.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, on the question of all-party groups, does the Minister agree that if professional lobbyists insinuate themselves into all-party groups, that is a breach of the standards that we ought to expect, both as regards this House and the wider public? Although we have had several goes at cleaning this up, there is a lot still to be done.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I agree that we have to be very careful about all-party groups. It is a matter for both Houses as much as anything else. However, one might not want to say that Universities UK for example, which happens to assist the All-Party Group for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, is a lobbying company and should not be allowed to support that group. There is a gradation here; one has to think about what is proper and what is not.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, when the Minister writes to the noble Lord, Lord Martin, will he also place a copy in the Library?
Lord Swinfen
My Lords, when we have a register of lobbyists, will it be illegal for those not on the register to lobby?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
There is a voluntary register of public relations companies, which was established in the wake of an earlier inquiry in 2009. However, one of the three bodies that joined that register has now left it. Even within the public relations industry, they disagree among themselves as to who exactly one should be regulating.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is nothing wrong whatever with people and organisations lobbying Members of Parliament and, indeed, lobbying Members of your Lordships’ House, much as though many Members of this House might prefer it not to happen? The important thing is absolute transparency and clear rules about the use of money.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I agree very strongly. We all need to defend the usefulness of representational groups, advocacy groups, think tanks and others in contributing to our information. We all get lots of e-mails from those groups as we approach legislation and other things. That is a desperately important part of the open, democratic political process—so long as we are sure that we know what is going on and that it is transparent.
Charities
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Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and draw attention to my charitable interests as listed in the register.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the report does suggest a worrying drop in giving. However, this is yet to be confirmed as a trend, and there is some debate within the sector about whether this is what charities are experiencing on the ground. The Government remain committed to taking action to ensure that Britain continues to be a generous country, in giving both money and time.
Baroness Pitkeathley
The Minister is right that there is some dispute about the figures, but I wonder whether he is familiar with the latest report by the Charities Aid Foundation that one in six charities think that they will have to close over the next year and that half are already using their reserves because of a fall in donations, cuts in public spending and much increased demand for their services. How do the Government think that this will impact on their vision of the voluntary sector and charities being a vital part of the delivery of public services and, indeed, on the Prime Minister’s hopes for the big society?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I have also seen that report and looked at it in some detail. It is interesting, incidentally, that as of September this year there were 2,000 more charities registered than there had been three years before so the trend has not, so far, been downwards, but it is worrying. From my experience of the charities sector, and I have visited a large number of additional charities since I took over this post, I am shaken by some that I meet in Yorkshire that are almost entirely dependent on public funds. That seems unwise. I strongly approve of those that raise some of their money through their own activities. The social enterprise model is very much part of what charities should be doing. The Government are doing a whole range of things to encourage the new generation to give more of their time and money. The National Citizen Service is one of them.
Baroness Barker
My Lords, given that the number of donations being given online and by text is increasing, does the Minister agree that charities are losing out, because gift aid is not yet fully digitised? Does he agree that it is imperative that the Government help charities to achieve a universal declaration of gift aid so that online giving can be much more beneficial than it is now?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I strongly agree with the noble Baroness. We are also looking at the difficulties of payroll giving. The Government want to encourage it. A small number of, by and large, large companies make that easy for their employees. We would like to see an expansion of payroll giving. The figures suggest that older people are now much more generous than the younger generation, and we do not entirely know the reasons. Again, that is not entirely fitting. I trust that all Members of this House are giving at least 10% of their income to charity.
Lord Grenfell
My Lords, I spent some years living in the United States. I was always struck there by the efficacy of the system that they have, in which where contributions to charities are fully deductible. The US Treasury seems to have worked out that the more that is given by individuals, the less the eventual burden on the taxpayers because they are taking up a lot of the strain from the taxpayers. This is not rocket science. Successive Governments here never seem to look at this as a serious proposition. Why not?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I do not entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. I have a relative in the United States who managed, by making donations of various sorts to his university library, to avoid paying almost any tax the previous year. One wants to encourage people to be generous. The Small Charitable Donations Bill, which we will be dealing with next week, is part of that. We need to consider how one asks for larger donations and makes them tax-beneficial. I remind people that legacies are also important, but a charity which I was talking to last week said that the problem with legacies is that people offer them to you, then stick around for many years.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, have the Government assessed whether the decline in charitable giving is connected to an increasing rise in the practice of charity mugging, commonly called chugging, where members of the public are approached by representatives, who may be working for agencies, to sign a direct debit? In particular why is it that if they are holding a cash tin they need a licence from the local authority, but if they make an approach for a direct debit they do not?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, dealt with chugging in his review of the Charities Act. We wish to encourage a broader base for giving among small donors. Chugging has been with us for some time. It is not a new phenomenon.
Lord Best
My Lords, in terms of the giving of time through volunteering, as well as the giving of money, it is good news that the Government are supporting more volunteering for sports as part of the legacy from those wonderful games makers at the Olympics. Will that same support for volunteering be extended beyond just sporting activity to other kinds of volunteering, such as the work that the WRVS is currently doing in sending volunteers in to help people who are living alone and suffering from loneliness?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Government’s join in scheme is very much intended to take on the spirit of the Olympics and extend it to a whole range of other activities. I visited a National Citizen Service course this summer. I had been relatively sceptical about National Citizen Service until then, but I was completely bowled over by the young people who were taking the course who were learning how to go out, raise money, help people and develop schemes. I would like to see many more people have the opportunity to learn how they can contribute more actively to society. It was a bunch of people from one of the poorer areas of Bradford, and it was delightful to see that they were learning to give their time and were managing to raise money.
Baroness Uddin
My Lords, during the noble Lord’s wide-ranging visits to different areas and charitable organisations, what assessment has he made of the impact of the current economic crisis, particularly on BME women’s organisations, given the Government’s commitment to empowering women and those dealing with domestic violence and increased reports of forced marriages and honour-based violence?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, what happens to different charities depends partly on how heavily they depend on public funds and what their donor or social enterprise base is. I am aware of several charities in Yorkshire that deal particularly with women. Their current trajectory is very different depending on their funding base.
Public Services
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, this has been an excellent debate and I look forward to many more on this theme. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, enormously for the way he introduced this debate. This is a cross-party and cross-government issue in which we are attempting to go through a major cultural change in the way in which the state, centrally and locally, delivers services in partnership with the voluntary sector, rather than simply as a contractor of it, as a number of noble Lords have said.
I am interested that no noble Lord has cited the new report from Social Enterprise UK, which contains some sharp language which I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, would welcome, on the dangers of ending up, through outsourcing, with a private oligopoly of firms that are too big to fail and have a stranglehold on the outsourcing sector. The Government are aware of that, and a great deal of what we are now attempting to do is to make it easier for smaller enterprises and those which do not have the financial reserves and the skills to prepare complex contracts successfully to achieve a relationship with government. The Commissioning Academy is now getting under way, training central officials to simplify the contracting process between government and the voluntary sector, thus advertising small contracts available on government websites to make it easier to find out what is going on.
This is, of course, a long-term development and, in some ways, a revolutionary development. We are now admitting that we have a limited government and that we cannot provide for our society everything that is needed through the state itself.
At a meeting in Paris, I sat between one of my party colleagues in government and a senior French Minister. He was saying, “We share a similar set of problems. We in Britain are spending nearly 45% of our GDP on public services; but you are spending 55% of your GDP on public services”. I thought, “That is a very important gap”. Part of the problem that we all have—the previous Labour Government faced this—is that we have a public who resist paying higher taxes but want better services. That is a problem that is going to get worse in the next 10 to 20 years because our older population is growing. The possibilities of what one can provide in social care and healthcare are rising, so the pressures are intense. We have to find ways of providing a mix of state and voluntary services which can provide the quality that we need.
We hope that we are moving toward real partnership. Even there, I have to say that, as we are accounting for public money, and we are having to contract out public money, the question is how one achieves a balanced partnership where the state is paying and the Daily Mail is looking over the state’s shoulder to see whether it is spending the money properly. That is a relationship that we will have to learn about as we go on.
As we all know—I certainly remember from when I was a politician in Manchester—there is deep suspicion among large local authorities of the volunteer and the amateur. Only the full-time council employee could be trusted to do things. That is part of what we need to change. We also recognise that there is a deep problem in London. A lot of people in London—politicians, journalists and officials—do not really believe that people in Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds can be trusted to do things on their own. Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds are very large local authorities and, in their turn, do not trust some local enterprises which really understand what is happening in parts of Leeds or Bradford to begin to deliver the sort of public services which are needed.
As has been said by several participants in this debate, the voluntary sector is often best when it is small and local. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, spoke about those teams of local players, and I think that he meant personal relationships. That is fine, but it does not fit the model of state provision of services. We have to find ways around that. The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, and others talked about giving instructions to local government. If we believe in pursuing the localism agenda, we have to encourage local government rather than sending the sort of mass packs of instructions that Governments have tended to do over the past 25 years or more. We have to encourage them to go in for community budgeting—double devolution, which the previous Government and this one have also talked about. We have to recognise that our city local authorities —Birmingham is larger than several European Union member states—have to be encouraged to push things down from the local authority level to the communities below them.
This is a set of challenges for the voluntary sector as well. As the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, and others have said, a lot of social enterprises and charities do not have the skills needed to get into these large procurement exercises. The charities I have been involved in lacked accounting and legal skills. We have had to learn by packing the trustees and getting accountants and lawyers to provide their services pro bono. If you are going to be getting into contracting with the Government you need a certain level of contracting skills and that, again, is something which the Government are experimenting with as we try to simplify the contracting process.
Working relations with social entrepreneurs, as the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, knows well, are never going to be easy. The way in which states have to operate does not easily absorb the individualist—the entrepreneur—who wants to do things in an entirely different way. We have to live with that tension and we have to do our best to make it work. Although I recall with some amusement being told that various government departments have wanted to replicate in other cities in England what the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, has achieved in east London. They have worked on this but not quite found the right non-conformist Ministers to lead it. It is again part of the problem with the voluntary sector which requires determined individual leadership.
The Government are pursuing a partnership with the voluntary sector. We are learning as we go forward. We are experimenting, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said, with new forms of financial assistance and support. We are very conscious, for example, that in one or two cases social enterprises have failed in bidding for government contracts because they could not demonstrate that they had the financial reserves to guarantee that they would be able to carry out the contract through a particularly difficult period.
We all hope that the Public Services (Social Value) Act, which is just about to come into operation, will help a great deal although estimating and calculating social value and standing up to the Public Accounts Committee asking you whether your department did deliver social value may not entirely be an easy thing to do. I am also engaged through the Cabinet Office in Civil Service reform. Getting officials out of their offices and changing the ways they think about the sort of services they are delivering again is part of this whole process. The voluntary sector, in turn, also has to adjust.
I was fascinated to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, talk about a period of turbulence. In political science there is the phrase “creative destruction”. I fear that what she is suggesting is that some charities will fail to make the grade and others will come into greater prominence. However, when one looks at the figures of turnover in the number of charities registered with the Charities Commission one realises that this is a continuing process. Charities die; other charities come into effect.
The noble Lord, Lord Best, said something extremely interesting about housing associations. A couple of weeks ago a good friend of mine who has just retired from a big housing association was making almost exactly those points. Housing associations have the funds, the presence and the weight to be able to do a lot of things that smaller and more fragile bodies cannot. I think that is a model we all need to take on board. Housing associations can actually do broader things within the local communities of which they of course form a part.
We are learning as we go along. The Government and the voluntary sector know that this is a long journey. We will be publishing tomorrow a new document about making it easier for civil society organisations to do business with the state. I think it will address some of the issues that the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, raised in her speech. This is of course part of a process whereby we hope to be building a better and easier relationship with the voluntary sector. It would be much easier if the economy were growing at 2% to 3% a year but, in the circumstances where the economy is not growing, we all hope that in two or three years’ time that will be the case. Our aim should be a plurality of social enterprises, charities and others working with local government and with agencies of national government to deliver the quality of services which we need in an increasingly difficult environment, with an older and more diverse society. That society will be coping with a very large range of different challenges.
Georgia
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, following broadly free and fair parliamentary elections on 1 October, Georgia is now negotiating a tricky period, with a difficult cohabitation between the Government and the President. It is incumbent on all sides to work together to consolidate Georgia’s democratic progress. This message was delivered by my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe, David Lidington, on his recent visit to Georgia on 21 to 22 November.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
I thank the Minister for his reply, but does he agree that there are very worrying signs coming from Georgia? More than 20 members of the previous Government have been arrested, including many high-ranking officials, former Cabinet Ministers, the deputy mayor of Tbilisi and the chief of the defence staff. It may be that some of those are guilty of misconduct, but will the Government join with other members of the European Union to make it quite clear to the new Prime Minister that the due process of law must be followed in every case and that there should be no hint of what has already been termed political retribution against former members of the Government?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we are concerned about the number of political figures who have been arrested and we are following that situation very closely. The sentiments that the noble Lord suggested have been expressed by a number of foreign ambassadors and Foreign Ministers. There have been discussions with the Georgians in Brussels. Ivanishvili, the new Prime Minister, visited Brussels in the context of the NATO-Georgia council on 5 December. An active dialogue is therefore under way.
Lord Haworth
My Lords, Georgia is a sovereign, democratic and proud country, but is it not the case that recent events are staining its reputation for democratic development? Is not the Georgian Dream becoming the Georgian nightmare? Will the Minister comment on the cancellation of Prime Minister Ivanishvili’s visit to Washington? Some reports say that while his party is busy arresting and harassing opposition parliamentarians that should remain the case. Would he be welcome in this country while this situation continues?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, it is a little too early to be quite as definite as the noble Lord has been. This is a new Government who have been in office for, in effect, less than two months, and the Georgian Dream coalition is extremely diverse. It is led by the richest man in Georgia, who has very little previous political experience. It is finding its way. Georgia is the most democratic among the former CIS states. It is not by any means a perfect democracy, but one has to recognise that the elections were seen as being broadly free and fair, and there was a democratic change of Government. We have to cling to that and bring all the pressure we can to make sure that the new Government fulfil their full democratic obligations.
The Lord Bishop of Wakefield
My Lords, perhaps I may move the focus to Russo-Georgian relations. Prime Minister Ivanishvili made most of his millions in Russia and it is reported that he either has been, or is about to be meeting President Putin. Will the Minister comment on the Government’s informed understanding of how Russo-Georgian relations may alter or whether they will remain as they are?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we would welcome an improvement in relations between Russia and Georgia. The new Government have indeed attempted to open a new dialogue with the Russians, but so far, as far as I am informed, the Russians have not responded very favourably. The problems of Abkhazia and South Ossetia remain; Russia still does not accept the territorial integrity of Georgia. There is a long way to go, but in the context of the multinational Geneva talks in which Britain also plays a part, we would very much like a more positive dialogue between Russia and Georgia to take place.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I thank the noble Lord for those comments. The previous Government were not perfect. There is a very large prison population in Georgia and prison conditions were clearly awful. The current Government are not perfect either; media freedom is still very limited, but we have to do what we can to encourage a process of transition to full democracy, which is still under way.
Lord Dykes
Is my noble friend confident that the October 2010 constitutional measures will ensure greater accountability and duty by the president to avoid the Putin-Medvedev interchangeability that is such a feature of Russian politics?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, one of the worrying concerns has been that the Government have published a proposed series of cuts in the budget that would sharply cut the budget for the presidential administration. We are doing everything that we can, as are a number of other foreign Governments, to encourage a constructive cohabitation between the president and the current Government until the presidential elections next year.
Electoral Registration Data Schemes (No. 2) Order 2012
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That the draft Orders and Regulations laid before the House on 30 October be approved.
Relevant documents: 10th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 27 November
Israel and Palestine: Balfour Declaration
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Baroness Tonge
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they marked the 95th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration; and what is their current assessment of the welfare of Israelis and Palestinians.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I should perhaps explain that the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, was taken unwell this morning and I am therefore standing in her stead at short notice. The British Government have not organised any events to mark the 95th anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. However, the Attorney-General and the British ambassador in Tel Aviv attended a dinner event on 12 November in Tel Aviv, organised by the Israel, British and the Commonwealth Association. We were deeply concerned about the welfare of both the Israelis and the Palestinians during the recent Gaza conflict. That violence only reinforces the need for urgent progress towards achieving a two-state solution to secure the long-term welfare and security of both Israelis and Palestinians.
Baroness Tonge
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware that the Palestinians feel totally betrayed by successive British Governments since the Balfour Declaration? By making our Government’s support for tomorrow’s United Nations bid conditional on Palestine not pursuing Israel through the International Criminal Court, are the Government not admitting that Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza and the West Bank and that they are seeking impunity for that country?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Government are concerned, as far as is possible in an extremely difficult situation, to restart the process towards negotiations on a two-state solution. We recognise that this is becoming increasingly difficult; the Foreign Secretary said in his Statement in the other place only a couple of hours ago that time is running out and if we do not manage to achieve a two-state solution within the next year or two, we may find ourselves looking at some very unpalatable alternatives. That is what the Government are fixed on.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, it is easy for supporters of Israel or the Palestinians to criticise the other side, so I will not trade missiles with the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge. Does not the noble Lord agree, however, that the important objective now is to look forward and bring the two sides to the negotiating table, and that efforts by the Palestinian Authority to gain recognition at the UN are more of a distraction than a help?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, it is very important to give some support to the Palestinian Authority. If Israeli illegal settlements continue to expand, the position of the Palestinian Authority will become impossible. Therefore, although we have done our best as a Government to dissuade the Palestinian Authority from taking this resolution to the UN General Assembly at this point, we understand why it feels it necessary to do so.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration makes this an appropriate moment to recall the understanding in Mr Balfour’s letter to Lord Rothschild that,
“nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”—
a tragic contrast to the continuing breach of Palestinian human rights caused by illegal settlements on the West Bank and by ethnic cleansing in east Jerusalem? Does the Minister also accept that, given the almost unanimous consensus to which he has himself referred, a two-state solution is the only way to resolve this long-running dispute in the interests of both Israel and Palestine? It is entirely logical and right that we should not only give unconditional support to the very modest Palestinian hopes for enhanced membership of the United Nations but encourage our friends and partners to do likewise. Finally, I understand that the Foreign Secretary made a Statement in the House of Commons this morning on this subject. I express some regret that it was not thought appropriate to repeat it here this afternoon.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I reread the Balfour Declaration before I came in and it is a masterpiece of diplomatic drafting. It is not entirely clear and has a number of deliberate ambiguities within it. Her Majesty’s Government are very concerned to bring pressure to bear on all those who have a stake in the negotiations, including the Governments of Israel and the United States, to exert all their efforts now to restart the negotiations. I stress again that time is not entirely with us. We wish to avoid a situation in which opinion in the US Congress, or perhaps right-wing opinion in Israel in an election campaign, might lead to a demand for retaliation for recognition of Palestinian statehood. We are therefore doing our best to promote the two sides being brought together rather than have them score points against each other.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, does the Minister not recognise that, in the interests of peace in the Middle East, Palestinians need to be supported in finding legitimate, non-violent alternatives to the rockets that have been raining in from Hamas on southern Israel? Does he not see that tomorrow’s seeking of some formal recognition falls into that category? Does he not recognise that, if we are not to see Palestinians sign up to a cause to die for, we have to give them hope to live for?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we entirely understand that. We have been in active discussion with the Palestinian Authority and with other Governments over the past week about the exact text of the resolution and we are continuing those discussions. If we gain from the Palestinians the assurances that we are looking for, we will be able to vote in favour of the resolution.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, the argument for a two-state solution is one with which we are in entire agreement and continue to be so. We have also urged, and continue to urge, both sides to behave with legality, because that is a precondition for any kind of stability in the region. However, does the Minister agree that, in order to change what is going on and achieve an enhanced status for the Palestinian people, support at this time would be a very valuable step? Does he also agree that it is extremely unlikely that it would set back any part of the peace process—an argument that has been advanced in this House and which, candidly, few of us understand?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we are providing very active support. My honourable friend Alistair Burt was in Gaza and the Middle East last week and we are providing a great deal of financial support both in Gaza and in the West Bank.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Given that the vote at the United Nations is merely symbolic and observer status, exactly like that of the Holy See—the Vatican—should not threaten anyone, will Her Majesty’s Government have conversations with the Americans to remind them of their obligations under the Oslo accords? One of three preconditions from Oslo was that the Americans had to engage positively and proactively in bringing out a two-stage solution.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, my noble friend knows the complexities of American politics as well as I do, and knows that the United States is in a very different position in terms of congressional politics from us in either of the two Houses here. We have actively to engage with the United States to get it to turn back and towards negotiating a peace process.