Preparing Legislation for Parliament (Constitution Committee Report)

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Wednesday 12th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to contribute to this debate, particularly in relation to the second of these impressive reports, the Constitution Committee’s report on the delegation of powers. As chairman of your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee—a post I have had the honour to occupy since 2015—secondary legislation obviously holds a particular interest for me. As your Lordships can no doubt imagine, over recent months it has been the almost exclusive diet of my reading and has occupied much of my time.

Yesterday my committee published its second interim report, describing our work from April 2018 to April 2019. While it is too early for the Minister to comment on our findings, I hope the report has been of interest to your Lordships and has helped to inform today’s debate.

It will come as no surprise when I say that the past year has been a particularly demanding one for the SLSC. Over 1,000 instruments were laid during the period, compared with 659 in the previous 12 months. Nearly 690 were laid between October 2018 and March 2019, and 36% of the total during the first quarter of 2019—an unusually heavy workload. But this was anticipated, and arrangements were put in place to ensure that our capacity could meet the demand. In July 2018, as a result of the expected 800 or so Brexit instruments—a figure later revised downwards—and the extension of our remit to include the withdrawal Act sifting function, my committee was given the power to appoint sub-committees and to co-opt new members. That power was exercised in October 2018 when we formed two sub-committees. The noble Lord, Lord Cunningham of Felling, chaired one and I the other. We also co-opted an additional 11 members to the sub-committees and increased our staff complement. I am pleased to take this opportunity to thank the co-opted members for their invaluable contribution to the scrutiny work of the committee. We have now resumed sitting as one committee, albeit ready to return to two committees should the need arise.

In its report, published in November 2018, the Constitution Committee noted that the sifting procedure was “in its infancy” and that it was then,

“too early to assess its efficacy”.

To some extent that remains the case. However, we are beginning to take stock of how well it is working. I am sure that others, in and out of Parliament, will do the same. Meanwhile, it is notable that of the 228 siftable instruments—what we call proposed negative instruments —laid up to April 2019, the SLSC recommended that 41, some 18%, should be upgraded from the negative to the affirmative procedure. I am pleased to report to your Lordships that the Government accepted all our recommendations without exception.

Brexit has dominated our work, but it has also dominated the work of Parliament more generally. However, as the Constitution Committee’s report and my committee’s second interim report show, a number of issues concerning the use of secondary legislation are of more general significance. For example, the Constitution Committee comments on the nature of guidance published alongside legislation—my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay has just referred to this—deprecating its use to assist the interpretation of legislation or to fill what it calls “policy lacunae”. In our annual report at the end of the 2016-17 Session, we echoed this concern when we called for a clear distinction between guidance and secondary legislation, and for legislation to be sufficiently clear,

“to avoid the need for interpretative guidance”.

The Constitution Committee is also critical of skeleton Bills—also referred to by my noble and learned friend—a matter on which my committee commented in our response to the Strathclyde review in 2015 when we said we supported,

“those who caution against the use of skeleton bills and skeleton provision in bills”.

But the most fundamental issue in relation to the delegation of legislative power is the boundary between primary and secondary legislation. It is, as was amply demonstrated in the debates on the tax credits regulations and the subsequent Strathclyde review, at the very heart of the relationship between Parliament and the Government—between the legislature and the Executive.

The Constitution Committee expresses concern that the balance of power is tipping away from Parliament. It refers to how the boundary is “not always respected”, and that statutory instruments may be used,

“to give effect to significant policy decisions”.

Over the last year, my committee and the sub-committees have dealt with a number of instruments which may be classified as giving effect to significant policy decisions. They included, to name just a few, regulations about the teaching of relationships, sex and health education in schools, about which we received over 430 submissions from members of the public; universal credit regulations which involved the migration of about 3 million people on long-term benefits to universal credit; regulations changing the maximum stake for fixed-odds betting terminals from £100 to £2; and regulations to set up a stand-alone UK regulatory regime, REACH UK as it was called, for the regulation and control of chemicals. Most recently, following an evidence session with the Minister and submissions from interested organisations, we reported on regulations relating to the Government’s decision to cease operating a statutory adoption register.

Finally, I pay special tribute to the staff who have provided unfailing support to my committee and sub-committees and, as a result, a considerable benefit to your Lordships, despite the burden of an exceptional workload over the months. We are all truly grateful.

House of Lords: Gender Equality

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Thursday 6th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, can I persuade the Minister to support my Private Member’s Bill, which arranges for hereditary peerages to go through the female line in certain circumstances?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I understand that my noble friend has been round this course before. He submitted a Bill in 2015-16, 2016-17 and again in the current Session. The main purpose appeared to be to revive and maintain peerages rather than to pursue female succession as an end in itself. The Bill received a Second Reading in the 2015-16 Session but did not in the 2016-17 or current Sessions.

Devolved Administrations

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Baroness raises a good point. The review I referred to is about intergovernmental relationships, not inter-parliamentary ones. If the parliaments want to take action independently of government to build up closer relationships, I see no reason why they should not.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend and Her Majesty’s Government take particular care in drafting the necessary secondary legislation for the Brexit process, while having particular regard to the Welsh Assembly, which made some complaints on this?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I recognise the particular role my noble friend has when it comes to statutory instruments, and I can give him that assurance.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

That the report be now received.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, may I say a few words?

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

The procedure is that we take this first. The question is “That this Report be now received”. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”, to the contrary “Not-Content”. The Contents have it.

Report received.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I apologise for confusing the procedure. I simply wanted to say a few words before we get to the Marshalled List. The plain fact is that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and I, who disagree over the Bill’s provisions, as is well understood, none the less agree on a number of important issues relating to this matter.

The noble Lord has on several occasions drawn attention to the very small number of Peers who vote or take part in hereditary Peer by-elections for the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, and I do not disagree with that curiosity. I therefore would not oppose the idea that all hereditary Peer by-elections be conducted on an all-House basis, as are those by-elections for officeholders at present. He has also drawn attention to the small number of female Peers—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister might help the House understand what is actually taking place.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

Yes, I read it too, and I remember saying it, so it is no good pointing and waving papers at me. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde has raised other points that were not mentioned in Committee and are worthy of debate and, on that basis, I support his amendment.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I will speak for only a few moments. I support the amendment and very much hope that it will become part of this Bill if it reaches the statute book, which, naturally, I hope it will not. Just a few moments ago, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, appeared to deploy what I believe he considers to be—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the noble Lord declare an interest so that those outside understand where he is coming from?

[Lord Trefgarne]

If it will satisfy the noble Lord, I am happy to declare that I am a hereditary Peer.

A few moments ago, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, described what he sees as the principal shortcomings of the by-elections—namely, that there are very few voters and candidates for the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats as compared with the Conservatives. I hope he therefore agrees that, if the Bill does not become law, voting in by-elections should be done on an all-House basis, which I shall very much support.

[Lord Grocott]

Can we dispose of this matter? One would think that lots of people would vote in a whole House election. I never take part in these things, but I am very happy to report that at the last whole House election earlier this year, 33% of this House took part in the ballot. I think that that is a sign of people voting with their feet—they know how silly the whole thing is. The percentage taking part has steadily declined since the 1999 Act.

[Lord Trefgarne]

No doubt, if there is another all-House by-election, the noble Lord will persuade them otherwise, particularly those in his own party. I will not detain your Lordships any longer unless any other noble Lord wishes to intervene. I simply repeat that I support the amendment proposed by my noble friend.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

5: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) In section 2, after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Standing Orders relating to the filling of vacancies must provide that any party or group specified in the Standing Orders need not take up its entitlement to fill any vacancy among the people excepted from section 1, and that in this event the vacancy will be allocated to one of the other parties or groups specified in the Standing Orders, by a method specified in the Standing Orders, for that party or group to fill.””

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, this amendment is largely self-explanatory but I believe it deals with some of the concerns that have been expressed. Any political party that does not wish to take part in the process of electing hereditary Peers would not have to do so if the amendment were agreed. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness]

I rise to support my noble friend’s amendment and to speak to Amendment 6, which is similar to that of my noble friend. My noble friend’s amendment asks that vacancies be spread to other parties. I do not believe that that should necessarily be the case and that, if it helps reduce the numbers in the House, a party need not take up a vacancy. When the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked us to declare an interest, I hoped that I might be able to misquote Shakespeare. Some are born with peerages; some have peerages thrust upon them, and some achieve peerages. The great advantage of being a hereditary Peer is that everybody knows why I got my peerage. The other two categories are still open to debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

I think that the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, were addressed to me rather than to my noble friend. I shall therefore detain your Lordships no longer. I beg to move.

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Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

6: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) In section 2, after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Standing Orders relating to the filling of vacancies must provide that any party or group specified in the Standing Orders need not take up its entitlement to fill any vacancy among the people excepted from section 1.””

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

7: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) For section 2(4) substitute—“(4) Standing Orders must make provision for filling vacancies among the people excepted from section 1 through a nomination and selection process run by the House of Lords Appointments Commission.””

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 7th September 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

At end insert “but regrets that the bill has not been brought forward by the Government, in the light of its constitutional importance; and that the bill proposes piecemeal, rather than wholesale, reform of the membership of the House”.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a few moments. I am not opposed to House of Lords reform as a matter of principle. Indeed, back in 2012, when the Government introduced a reform Bill in the other place, I sat on the pre-legislative scrutiny committee and was not opposed to that in principle at all, but it did not get very far and failed in the House of Commons. Since then, here in your Lordships’ House, we have listened to the recommendations of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, to which I am not opposed either, but none of these considerations is taken into account in the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, which contravenes the undertakings given in 1999. Against that background, I beg to move the amendment.

[Lord Northbrook (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for having been unable to take part in Second Reading and the first day of Committee. I declare an interest as a hereditary Peer.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne that important constitutional legislation should be brought forward by the Government rather than by a Private Member’s Bill. In June 1999, my noble friend Lord Denham asked the following Question of the Lord Chancellor:

“Just suppose that that House goes on for a very long time and the party opposite get fed up with it. If it wanted to get rid of those 92 before stage two came, and it hit on the idea of getting rid of them by giving them all life peerages … I believe that it would be a breach of the Weatherill agreement. Does the noble and learned Lord agree?”


The Labour Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, said in reply that,

“I say quite clearly that … the position of the excepted Peers shall be addressed in phase two reform legislation”.—[Official Report, 22/6/1999; cols. 798-800.]

Nothing could be clearer than that. That is why I believe that this Bill indeed breaches the Weatherill agreement and the House of Lords Act 1999.

I remind the Committee of the importance of the Labour Lord Chancellor’s words in March 1999, when he said:

“The amendment reflects a compromise … between Privy Councillors on Privy Council terms and binding in honour on all those who have come to give it their assent”.—[Official Report, 30/3/1999; col. 207.]


As the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was Tony Blair’s Parliamentary Private Secretary at the time, he must have been well aware of this. To the hereditary peerage, it was a vital part of the 1999 Act and a condition for letting it have satisfactory progress through the House.

I cannot understand why this area of the House needs reform when the by-elections have produced such capable replacements for the 90 such as the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord De Mauley, the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, and the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, all of whom are or have been on the Front Bench of their respective parties. It would seem more urgent to reform the life Peers system, which the Burns report proposes. The hereditary Peers are a strong link with the past, a thread that goes back to the 14th century. Until relatively recently, in House of Lords terms, the House was entirely hereditary. By-elections provide a way into this House that is not dependent on prime ministerial patronage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

He has tried to improve the Bill, my Lords? All I can say is: it is the way he tells them. I hope the House will come to a conclusion on this now. If there is a Division I hope that all noble Lords who want progress will vote against it.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I have had a certain amount of support for the amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

11: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) In section 2, after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Standing Orders must provide that vacancies amongst the 90 excepted hereditary peers are filled by a method which ensures that the excepted hereditary peer is younger than the average age of members of the House of Lords at the time the vacancy occurs.””

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I have already covered much of the substance of this amendment. I beg to move.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, I should inform the Committee that if Amendment 11 is agreed to, I am unable to call Amendments 17 to 33A by reason of pre-emption.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Erroll]

I wish to say—very quickly, because we have just had a history lecture—that, under the Peerage Act 1963, hereditary Peeresses, Peers in their own right, could sit for the first time in the House of Lords. My mother was one of the 16 elected Scottish representative Peers to sit, and one of the first five hereditary Peeresses to sit in the House of Lords—so we did get a bit of female representation. The answer to the Wales question is that of course it was not a kingdom. The issue of the Scots Peers was around the merging of two kingdoms under a Scottish king.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, to refer to the point made in my noble friend Lord Northbrook’s amendment, the question of the Scottish Peers was of course addressed when what became the 1999 Act went through your Lordships’ House. As I recall, although it is now a long time ago, the Scottish Peers petitioned the House for exclusion from the provisions of the 1999 Act. They were represented by none other than the then Mr Richard Keen—now none other than my noble and learned friend Lord Keen of Elie himself. His petition did not succeed.

[Lord Snape]

Will the noble Lord answer the point I put to him and tell us the thinking behind his own amendment—otherwise we might think that he has tabled it somewhat mischievously?

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I have nothing to add to the remarks I made earlier.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

What does the noble Lord wish to do with his amendment?

[Lord Trefgarne]

I wish to test the opinion of the House.

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Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

12: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) In section 2, after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Standing Orders must provide that future vacancies must be filled using a method which ensures that over time excepted hereditary peers are elected on a basis which provides for the equitable representation of each country and region of the United Kingdom.””

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Caithness has spoken at some length to this matter. I beg to move.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees decided on a show of voices that Amendment 12 was disagreed.

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Tabled by

[Lord Trefgarne]

14: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) For section 2(4) substitute—“(4) Standing Orders must make provision for filling vacancies among the people excepted from section 1 through a nomination and selection process run by the House of Lords Appointments Commission.””

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I rise to move this amendment.

[Noble Lords]

It has already been debated.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I do not think it has been spoken to—certainly not by me.

[Lord Grocott]

Perhaps I may help the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, with the procedure, as he is fairly new to this place. This amendment was in a group that we discussed in March, when we dealt, I think, with 10 amendments in two hours. So far today, we have dealt with two amendments in one hour 40 minutes. At this rate, we will need about 10 more Fridays to complete this stage. I hope that the noble Lord acknowledges the appalling waste of precious time that is resulting from what he is doing. To now start moving an amendment that has already been part of a debated group is something that he should refrain from doing.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I do not wish to offend the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, or anyone else for that matter, so I shall not move the amendment.

Amendment 14 not moved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

I can help the noble Lord by telling the House about my ancestor. I am the second Lord Trefgarne and my father was the first. He was a Liberal and then later a Labour MP.

[Lord Colgrain (Con)]

My Lords, I would point out that I am the fourth who has been fortunate enough to be a representative in your Lordships’ House. I am also the most recent hereditary Peer to have been elected by the whole House: 803 of your Lordships were in a position to elect me, which makes me feel that my position is slightly more democratically representative than that of a large number of others.

I was hoping to say quite a lot of things today but I do not want to be accused of filibustering. Therefore, I will foreshorten my speech and just say three things that people have referred to me when it comes to what they find attractive about hereditaries.

The first is that we do not come from the other place with trappings of party tribalism and a sense of our own personal political importance. Secondly, in the main, we do not have experience of working for the public sector, so we have a more finely tuned sense of the anxieties and insecurities of the private sector and the self-employed. Lastly, we are not beneficiaries of political patronage, which has resulted in over 300 of your Lordships being ex-MPs, MEPs or representatives of regional Assemblies and county councils. That counts for a great deal in the eyes of the public and is not something that should be discounted.

If the hereditary principle is seen as anomalous in a present-day democracy, it is probably no more so in the eyes of many, and no more idiosyncratic, than the fact that this country has been ruled for centuries without a written constitution, and for many, tradition begets legitimacy. The time for any review of the election of hereditary Peers should therefore not be piecemeal, as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, proposes, but should be an integral part of the review by the noble Lord, Lord Burns. We should await the finalising of his report. If in the meanwhile there was a desire to change the current voting powers so that rather than being party specific, any hereditary should be elected by the whole House, that recommendation would have my unqualified support.

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[Lord Trefgarne]

A few weeks ago, I asked the Procedure Committee to consider changing the arrangements for by-elections so that in future they would be on an all-House basis and perhaps conducted in accordance with the so-called Carter convention. I have not yet heard the result of the committee’s consideration. I have heard it informally, at least, and I wonder whether I will hear it formally.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, one or two people in the House for whom I have great respect have suggested that we could solve the issue of absurd by-elections on a party basis—because in the case of Labour and the Lib Dems, we have only four hereditary Peers, so we get these idiotic procedures—where the whole House votes. I have two problems with that, one of which is insurmountable. The first is the turnout, as referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. He rightly said that turnout figures can be very high in party by-elections: in the Lib Dem by-election, I think that the turnout was 100%. There were three electors, all of whom voted, so that is a high percentage.

However, turnout figures are consistently very low—often less than 50%—when a turnout of the whole House is required. That is lower than the lowest turnout in any constituency in the country at the last general election, by way of a useless fact, mainly because I am sure that people like me think that the system is idiotic so do not bother. Certainly, the whole-House elections have a low turnout so the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, would be proposing a system with a low turnout.

The far more fundamental issue, which is why I hope that the House will reject this proposal, is that this does not nothing whatsoever about the spectacularly unrepresentative nature of the register of hereditary Peers. The question of who can vote is one thing—by all means, you can put forward a proposal for the whole House if you want to—but we would still face a choice restricted to the 211 people on the register, 210 of whom are men and among whom there are no members of ethnic minorities, for example. It is utterly absurd to proceed with by-elections, whatever the mechanism of election or the electorate, if the eligibility of the people to stand is so totally unrepresentative. I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, will withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne]

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, referred to the list of hereditary Peers who are qualified to stand in by-elections. That list has I think only one female. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore support my Private Member’s Bill to change the law of succession for peerages so that noble Baronesses can succeed in the normal way.

[Lord Grocott]

How long does the noble Lord estimate it will be before the effect of his Bill will be parity between the sexes?

[Lord Trefgarne]

It is not in my hands at my age, I am afraid.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the point has been made about daughters inheriting titles. I would be in total support of my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s Bill. I would be very happy if eldest daughters were entitled to inherit. In fact, I supported the Bill at an earlier stage. It is that mischief that needs to be corrected, not the mischief that there are only males, except for one, on the waiting list to stand for a by-election.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said that if there were elections of the whole House only a small percentage of Peers would vote. If I remember rightly the figures that my noble friend Lord Trenchard gave earlier, I did a quick bit of maths and 50% of the House voted on the whole-House election. If that is considered to be a total waste of time because it is a small percentage, it is worth bearing in mind that the highest percentage of people who voted in the UK at a European parliamentary election is only 38%. Perhaps that is a very good reason why elections to that Parliament should be stopped. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I will bring it back at a later stage.

Hereditary Peers: By-elections

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am not sure who put the Equality Act 2010 on the statute book, but it does not extend to the hereditary peerage—that answers the first question. On the second, the House of Lords Reform Act went on to the statute book in 1999. The Labour Government had 11 years with substantial majorities in another place in which they could have addressed this anomaly. It is a little unfair to criticise this Government for not making it a priority.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, while there is room for more than one point of view as to the merits of the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, would it not be better to wait for the outcome of the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Burns, before we decide how to proceed in this matter? In the meantime, I agree with the suggestion that the by-elections should be made all-House by-elections, not narrowly defined ones as at present.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

As I said in response to an earlier question, the latter issue raised by my noble friend would be a matter for the House and does not require legislation. The Burns commission looked at this issue, but because it requires legislation did not directly address it. However, the Burns report did point out that, without action, the hereditaries would account for a growing proportion of a smaller House and that it would pre-empt the ability, particularly of my party but also of the Cross-Benchers, to nominate new Peers if spaces were occupied by the winners of hereditary by-elections.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Friday 23rd March 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

At end to insert “but regrets that the bill is proceeding notwithstanding that the recommendations set out in the report of the Lord Speaker’s committee on the size of the House have not yet been implemented.”

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, this is the second Bill that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has introduced on this matter. Neither has ever found favour with the Government, who have consistently said that they will not give time for the Bill in the other place—that is, if it manages to pass through your Lordships’ House. No new arguments have been made in favour of the Bill, although the debate on who should sit in the House has moved forward with the thoughtful contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, yet the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has not found it possible to adjust his Bill at all.

I should add that I have come here not to stop further debate on the Bill; I am here to play a part in the Committee stage, but I have put forward this amendment to ask the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, whether he might reconsider his Bill rather than continue with it today. It would be unfortunate to do so, as it would be better to continue by agreement and give the noble Lord the opportunity to think again. If he does not wish to reconsider, we will no doubt press on with the amendments tabled for the Committee stage.

To add to my point that we have discussed this Bill many times since the debate at Second Reading, we have had the report of the noble Lord, Lord Burns. His is an important contribution to the overall debate about who should sit in this House. As your Lordships may know, in the long term I am actually in favour of the rather unfashionable idea of electing our representatives to Parliament, but I know that many Members of your Lordships’ House profoundly disagree with that—some, no doubt, think that they are better themselves.

Be that as it may, there are many ways into this House. First, there is the traditional route. Since the start of the century there has been a massive increase in political patronage by party leaders. That is the most straightforward way to become a Member of your Lordships’ House. Next, we have what used to be called “the people’s Peers”, selected by a small but outstanding group of individuals chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar. Those selected make a useful contribution and sit on the Cross Benches. We also have the spiritual Peers—the Bishops and Archbishops—who grace our Benches and make such a difference to our debates.

We used to have the Law Lords, and I am sorry that they have gone, but there was an excellent suggestion in the Burns report that the Justices of the Supreme Court should be given seats in the Lords. If we ever had an 80% elected House, I would support the judges being part of the other 20%. Not only do they help to improve the quality of legislation but, as judges, they see very clearly some of the compromises that parliamentarians wrestle with every day and, ultimately, have to make. This better understanding of the legislative process is good for them as the most senior members of the judiciary and good for us as legislators as we hear their views.

Then there are the remaining hereditary Peers—92 Members of your Lordships’ House, or about 12% of the total—who are entitled to sit here by statute passed as recently as 1999. That legislation was, incidentally, agreed across the parties in both Houses as a useful compromise in passing what was then termed “modernisation” of our constitutional arrangements.

When we debated this Bill last year, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde explained the genesis of the current number of hereditary Peers and the by-elections tied to them—the so-called Weatherill amendment, which was passed in the House of Lords Act. The by-elections that we are discussing today were an integral part of that overall deal, which in part was designed to win over those Peers and MPs who did not favour a wholly appointed House and believed that in the longer term the only practical way forward was to have an elected second Chamber but accepted that that might take some time.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a question. He is presumably very proud to be a Member of this House, as we all are, but does he not accept that the amendment he has just referred to was supposed to last for a few months? As the Government are not going to legislate on House of Lords reform, the present arrangements will go on until at least 2021. Is he really proud of the fact that, by blocking this Bill and by blocking, as he did, the same provisions in my Bill in 2014, he is bringing the House into disrepute by sustaining for over 20 years a system which cannot be justified?

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I do not agree with that. I am in favour of House of Lords reform. Indeed, I would have supported the Bill introduced back in 2012, for a largely elected House, which of course did not even manage to get through the House of Commons.

However, the by-elections do serve a purpose, beyond helping the Government to get their Bill though Parliament in 1999. First, they are a strong link with the past—a golden thread that links us with the ancient Parliaments stretching back for generations. Secondly, they are a reminder that we have come from a House that was, only recently, entirely hereditary. Thirdly, and this is a point that I would like to expand upon, by-elections provide a different way into this House—a way which is not dependent upon prime ministerial patronage.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has often said that his Bill is not personal, yet his mocking tone, and the use of the word “laughable” in his recent article in the House magazine, creates a very different impression. In his article, the noble Lord mocked the Liberal Democrats who recently voted in a by-election for the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, to rejoin this House after a spell as an elected Member in the House of Commons. I was pleased to see the noble Viscount back in his place—he makes a valuable contribution to our debates. However, that is apparently not sufficient for the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. He described that by-election as “indefensible” and “laughable”.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, far be it from me to come to the defence of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, but I read the article. What he said was that having almost two and half times as many candidates as electors, and an electorate of only three, was laughable. He in no way impugned the authority or the contribution that the noble Viscount makes to this House.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I have already endorsed my admiration of the noble Viscount and continue to do so. I agree that there are some idiosyncrasies. That is why I have suggested that all hereditary Peer by-elections might be conducted as the one which we conduct for so-called officeholders, in which all noble Lords have a vote to select a new Member when a vacancy in that group occurs.

I do not have much more to say in favour of the propositions that I have made, but I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, will reflect again on the relevance of the by-elections in the context which I have described.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to everyone who has spoken, all of whom have spoken in favour of the Bill. We are simply debating an amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, that regrets the fact that the Bill will be considered in Committee. I need to remind the House, and maybe even the noble Lord, what he had to say about the timing of the consideration of my Bill when it had its Second Reading in September. He said that the Bill is “untimely”. The reason he gave was that the noble Lord, Lord Burns, was,

“chairing a Speaker’s Committee to examine the size of the House, which will … have a bearing”,—[Official Report, 8/9/17; col. 2155.]

on my Bill. He is now suggesting that we should not consider the Bill because not all the recommendations of the Burns committee have been met yet. I tend to get the feeling that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, would not be in favour of the Bill going into Committee whatever the circumstances of the Burns committee or any other. But he was absolutely right in one respect when he said that the Burns committee would have an effect on this Bill. It does indeed: it makes the case for it even more powerful.

I remind the House that the principal recommendation of the Burns committee, which has overwhelmingly found favour in all parts of this House, is that the House should reduce its size over time to 600 Members. One of the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne—I have to keep a straight face as I say this—suggests that we should delay any further consideration on the Bill until the House has been reduced to 600 Members. He is saying that the whole of the House can start reducing itself, apart from the 92 hereditary Peers. I hope, in the course of his response, he will explain the logic behind that argument, because it escapes me.

I am a chap of generally sunny disposition, but I am strained at the moment because I fear the tabled amendments do not try to improve the Bill, which is the point of Committee; they are designed to wreck the Bill and/or delay it indefinitely until some time in the future. Nothing has changed in the noble Lord’s approach, or that of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, come to that, since we last discussed the Bill, but lots of other things have changed, including the Burns report. The noble Lords have tabled a large number of amendments—I think they put their name to 57 on a two-clause Bill. There are 13 groups, so they have at least reduced the number of groups that were considered last time. Normally a two-clause Bill should be able to get through Committee in two and a half hours, which is roughly the time we will have to deal with it today. Their position will be tested on whether they agree to see the Bill through its Committee stage in the time left to it.

I feel very strongly that it is important that the House has an opportunity to express its view on the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, to the Bill. He is asking us to delay it. My feeling is that the overwhelming view of Members of this House, on all sides—including, my guess is, a majority of the hereditaries, many of whom have come to me and said that they support the Bill, notably including the noble Countess, Lady Mar, who cannot be here today, who is the only woman among the 92 hereditaries—is that they want us to get on with the Bill. It might be that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, is right that he has a lot of support here, but I think it is something he would want to test so that he and I can both judge the strength of feeling there is on this piece of legislation. I hope the noble Lord will stand up now and seek the opinion of the House.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am grateful for the point of view of all noble Lords who have spoken, not many of whom have agreed with me, I fear. Be that as it may, I am clear that we now ought to proceed to Committee. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Some Lords objected to the request for leave to withdraw the amendment, so it was not granted.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 2, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
“(1) The House of Lords Act 1999 is amended as follows.”

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, this amendment is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Caithness. I do not intend to trouble your Lordships with any detailed explanation. It is all fairly obvious and I beg to move.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, this is the first opportunity I have to comment on what has recently taken place. If it is a question of trying to avoid the idea that this House is not—what should I say?—economical in the way it moves, the business of having a vote against the withdrawal is extraordinary. One of the consequences is that the two Tellers who voted for the Motion were doing so against their judgment. In my respectful submission to your Lordships, it does not do any good for the rationality of the processes of this House that that kind of thing should happen. I am here to acknowledge fully that it was not the leadership of the Opposition nor, I think, the Liberal Democrats who did that. It is undesirable and I hope we will now proceed rather smartly. I am entirely in favour of this Bill but I was not very happy with what happened at the beginning of these proceedings. That is the reason that I did not take part in the vote; I did not think that it should have happened.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, the noble Lord, of all people, should know that we will debate Amendment 33A when we reach it. If I start responding to amendments we have not even reached, we will go on even longer.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, when I moved Amendment 2 a little while ago, I should have said that I was speaking at the same time to Amendments 5, 24, 31, 35, 52, 53 and 59. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 2.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Trefgarne]

6: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
“(2) In section 2, after subsection (4) insert—“(4A) Standing Orders relating to the filling of vacancies must provide that any party or group specified in the Standing Orders need not take up its entitlement to fill any vacancy among the people excepted from section 1, and that in this event the vacancy will be allocated to one of the other parties or groups specified in the Standing Orders, by a method specified in the Standing Orders, for that party or group to fill.””

[Lord Trefgarne]

I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I shall speak to this group of amendments. I also resent the accusation that I have been using delaying tactics. After the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, intervened to accept my Amendment 1, I immediately sat down so that progress could be made.

The noble Lord has presented his arguments under two headings. The first is that he has this prejudice against hereditary Peers and their succession. This is part of Labour policy, I fully understand that, and I fear that there is also probably resentment at being out-argued by my noble friends Lord Cranborne and Lord Strathclyde in 1999. The Prime Minister at the time is not the first person to have been out-argued by a Cecil, and doubtless will not be the last. That is well known in history.

The second flank of the noble Lord’s argument is about the by-elections. He has made some very witty speeches and written witty articles on this subject. These amendments deal with the by-elections. I wish to address in particular Amendment 10 in this group. The noble Lord has pointed out, at Second Reading last year and before that, that some circumstances in which certain by-elections are conducted are not entirely compatible with modern thinking on how they should take place. He has a point. However, the point of these amendments is to retain the by-elections but give the noble Lord what he wants: namely, a change in how they are constituted.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness]

Well, some survived that too and doubtless some of us will survive this onslaught against us. My noble friend Lord Deben, the then Mr Gummer, also said what a good thing it was to have some hereditaries here because:

“A society is better run when, even if it is not entirely rational, power is spread a bit, with the opportunity for different people to make different comments about different things.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/11/99; col. 1173.]


All I am asking is that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, consider that we amend the way by-elections take place at the moment to make them for the whole House rather than just individual parties, and that we revisit this when, as I said earlier, there is greater implementation of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Burns.

[Lord Trefgarne]

In this short intervention I support the proposition to which I referred earlier that the by-elections should be conducted on an all-House basis.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

For the benefit of the public, will the noble Lord declare an interest?

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, there are arrangements for declaring interests set out in Standing Orders. I do not think that what the noble Lord proposes is required by Standing Orders. If he would like to arrange for the Standing Orders to be changed, that, of course, would be another matter.

As I was saying, I believe there is a powerful argument for running all by-elections on an all-House basis, as those for the so-called officeholders are at present. Also, the list of candidates for hereditary Peer by-elections has, I think, only one female on it. I have a Private Member’s Bill waiting in the list behind the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to change all that. I hope your Lordships will support it.

[The Earl of Erroll]

My Lords, this is all about the by-election process. If the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, would like to declare how he got here and what he did to get here, I would be very happy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shinkwin]

I do not accept that point, because if one looks at the appointments to this House, one can argue that if we were all to agree today that in future by-elections we would prioritise the election of disabled hereditaries, we could make quite significant progress on improving the composition.

I will close with the following point, on which I hope we can all agree. We recently marked the centenary of women aged 30 and above being given the vote. Would it not be wonderful if, to complement our commitment to reform from within through by-elections, we also gave our support to this country’s second woman Prime Minister should the majority of people whom she recommends that Her Majesty send to your Lordships’ House be women, with a significant proportion of them from BAME backgrounds? Both measures, taken together, would do more to strengthen the legitimacy of your Lordships’ House than any reduction in our numbers, important though that is. The retention of by-elections is therefore a crucial part of the organic process of reform from within. For that reason I support Amendment 25.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am grateful for all the contributions we have just heard, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 6 withdrawn.

Carillion

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Monday 15th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord asks a very good question—so good that I asked it myself when I met officials earlier today. It is a serious issue that there may be circumstances where Carillion has been paid but the money has not filtered down the supply chain. I have made inquiries about this. The priority of the official receiver is to maintain continuity of service and I gather that there is provision within the resources available to the receiver, in the circumstances that the noble Lord has just mentioned, for the payments that have not filtered through to be made, in order to ensure that continuity of service is provided.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I am aware that the Ministry of Defence had important business with Carillion. Can the Minister say how that will be affected?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government have been in touch with a range of government departments which have an interest, including the Ministry of Defence. The top priority is to make sure that the catering, cleaning and maintenance services provided by Carillion continue to run effectively, and I have been assured that the contingency planning carried out by the ministry means that there will be minimal impact on service personnel and their families as a result of what has happened today.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 8th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has said, this Bill is very similar, if not identical, to the one he introduced about a year ago, which eventually did not pass. I am afraid that my position on this Bill is very much the same as it was on the last one, so I apologise if what I now say is something of a repetition of what I said last year.

All this goes back to the House of Lords Act 1999. At that time, your Lordships’ House was some 1,200-strong: split roughly half and half between hereditary Peers and life Peers. The Bill of that year, as originally introduced, simply removed all hereditary Peers from your Lordships’ House without any qualification. That proposed Bill inevitably met serious opposition in your Lordships’ House. Indeed, given the political numbers of that time, doubtless the Opposition could have rejected the Bill outright. However, Lord Weatherill, assisted by Lord Cranborne—now the Marquess of Salisbury—and my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, was able to persuade the then Government that a deal needed to be done, which it was, to the effect that 92 hereditary Peers would remain, topped up as necessary through by-elections until such time as House of Lords reform was complete.

The then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, declared that agreement to be,

“binding in honour on those who gave their assent to it”.—[Official Report, 30/3/99; col. 205.]

Your Lordships may ask what was meant by “complete” House of Lords reform. I would say that the Bill introduced back in 2012 by the then coalition Government was indeed just that. Had that Bill reached the statute book, it would have been the end of the 1999 agreement. Unfortunately, that Bill did not pass through the other place and no further attempts of that nature have been made since.

There is now talk of further reform, for example along the lines proposed by my noble friends Lord Cormack and Lord Norton, which I would not necessarily oppose—not in principle, anyway. In addition to these ideas, as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has pointed out, the noble Lord, Lord Burns, is now chairing a Speaker’s Committee to examine the size of the House, which will surely have a bearing on the matter. I regret that that Committee does not include a hereditary Peer; but the noble Lord was good enough to agree that I and a couple of my hereditary colleagues could give evidence to his Committee, which we did. We look forward to his report.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, I have noticed that the most ardent defenders of the status quo are certain noble Lords whose hereditary peerages are of the least antiquity. Is that because they hope that the effluxion of time will clothe them as legislators in some flimsy legitimacy?

[Lord Trefgarne]

I would have to reflect on that question before I answered it.

My Lords, against the background I have described, I have to say that the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is inappropriate and untimely. I shall do my best to persuade your Lordships accordingly.