Lord Pickles
Main Page: Lord Pickles (Conservative - Life peer)Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Lord Pickles Excerpts
The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 7.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 1 to 6, 8 to 24 and 26 to 40.
Mr Pickles
I agree with amendments 1 to 6, 8 to 24 and 26 to 40, but I ask the House to support the motion to disagree with Lords amendment 7.
I would like to thank the noble Lords for their well-informed debates since this Bill passed to the other place just before Christmas. Those debates brought about a number of positive changes, and we are happy to support a significant number of them. I recognise the constructive proposals put forward in particular by Baronesses Byford and Parminter and by Lords Jenkin of Roding, Tope, Shipley and Greaves on the Government Benches; by Lord Best and the Earl of Lytton from the Cross Benches; and, indeed, by Lord Berkeley on the Opposition Benches.
The amendments to clause 1 take into account the very poor performance of a small number of authorities in failing to meet statutory deadlines. They confirm that designation can be made only on the basis of inadequate performance in the determination of major applications and that the criteria of those designations must be laid before both Houses of Parliament before coming into force.
On report in this House, in response to arguments put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) as well as by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), the Government made a commitment to amendment 12 to exempt rural exception sites from the provisions of clause 6 on affordable housing. In addition, we have always said that we intend clause 6 to be a temporary measure to unblock existing stalled housing developments, and we were happy to introduce an amendment to ensure that the sun would set on it on 30 April 2016.
We have made clear that the Planning Inspectorate’s assessment of the viability of a particular scheme will be independent, and that any evidence on which inspectors rely in their discussions will be made public. We also support the amendments that will guarantee consistency with existing mayoral planning powers relating to applications that are of strategic importance in London.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I thank the Secretary of State for announcing an important measure that will deal with the mischief of many years during which people were unable to know what arguments developers were advancing for the delivery of less than the locally affordable housing limits. It will allow us to hold to account, publicly, developers as well as local authorities.
Mr Pickles
I agree. It will ensure that important information is provided where it should be provided, within the community.
Lords amendment 15, which amends clause 8, constitutes a direct response to points made with passion and persistence by Lady Parminter, and also by the English National Park Authorities Association, about the precise drafting of our proposal to accelerate the roll-out of superfast broadband coverage. The amendment will ensure that we retain important safeguards that will continue to protect our national parks and other protected areas.
I hope that the House will support Lords amendment 8, which will simplify the process of making local development orders; Lords amendment 16, which will reduce the period of grace for the registration of town and village greens from two years to one; Lords amendment 23, which will remove ambiguity from development consent orders; and Lords amendment 24, which will enable the Mayor of London to delegate his planning responsibilities.
Let me now deal with the important issue of permitted development rights for home owners. The proposal in question was not part of the Bill as introduced in the House of Commons. I overheard one of my right hon. Friends expressing a desire to vote against it and claiming to have voted against it persistently during all the Bill’s stages in the Commons, but I must point out that this is the first occasion on which it has been before us. It stems from an amendment tabled by Lords True, Tope and Lytton, and I know that it has engaged the interest of many Members of the House of Commons as well. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate the way in which the planning system strikes a balance between the rights of home owners to improve their homes and the right of the state to specify the improvements that they are allowed to make.
Let me now quote, with considerable approval, from a document which states:
“No one today would assert that property rights should be unrestricted but…those restrictions must always be justified and remain as limited as possible… many planners who have grown up with the view that the property owner is only one stakeholder among others. There are too many who act as if they believe that most people cannot be trusted to make decisions themselves without the superior advice and judgement of professionals. Some councillors, too long on planning committees, react to a restatement of the inherent rights of property by fearing loss of control! It is that word which is the key.
Too much planning has become development control… the time and trouble that has been spent on dealing with planning applications for extensions and additions, porches and garages…cannot be seriously said to have been cost-effective.”
Those are the magnificent words of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), together with those of John Gummer, in the wonderful Quality of Life policy group report, published in 2007.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
I am sure my right hon. Friend agrees that the local government family is like the curate’s egg: good in parts, but bad as well. Does he agree, however, that the issues that he has raised would have been ventilated much more effectively had the consultation period been longer—along with the Cabinet Office guidelines—and had the Department itself arrived at a settled consensus in response after 16 weeks? Unfortunately, that has not happened.
Mr Pickles
I do not know about the curate’s egg, but I have always regarded local government as an omelette of happiness and consensus. I hope that by the time I sit down, I shall have spun together a dish that the hon. Gentleman can happily tuck into.
Mr Pickles
I will, of course, give way to the right hon. Gentleman on the matter of omelettes.
Paul Burstow
Can the Secretary of State explain why, even at this stage, it was not possible to provide an executive summary of the findings from the consultation? Why must the House wait until May to find out whether people are in favour of the proposal or against it?
Mr Pickles
Obviously we will provide the information when the regulations are laid. That is normal Government procedure.
Having poured praise on my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park—
Zac Goldsmith
I stand by the words that my right hon. Friend quoted so eloquently earlier. There are certainly ways in which we could simplify the planning system; I do not think anyone disputes that. However, given that 90% of applications are already successful, surely removing people’s right to object will simply guarantee that the remaining 10%—the most contentious, un-neighbourly, antisocial developments—proceed as well, causing unnecessary conflict between neighbours.
Mr Pickles
I think that it would be best for my hon. Friend to wait until the omelette has started to settle. He may care to cross-examine me further then.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
I do not know about omelettes, but the Secretary of State is making a very soft-boiled case for supporting the Government, and I am really trying hard. I do not know about him, but I hear complaints from many of my constituents, at my surgeries or through local councillors, that their neighbours have extended the remit of their planning permissions in terms of height, length or type. How many more complaints does he think will be made to us when planning permission is no longer required for a development that a neighbour would regard as completely unacceptable and antisocial?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We must have shorter interventions.
Mr Pickles
When I became Member of Parliament for Brentford and Ongar, my predecessor gave me a single file and two pieces of advice. The first was that when the sun rose I should always be found in my own bed, and the second was “Never, in any circumstances, become involved in planning.” Since then, I have been made a Planning Minister. My advice to my hon. Friend is not to become too heavily involved in disputes between neighbours.
Mr Pickles
If hon. Members will let me make a little progress, they will be able to hear what I am suggesting.
I believe that there is broad agreement on the need for greater flexibilities and freedoms for home owners. It is merely a question of detail, and that detail is contained in planning regulations—secondary legislation—which both Houses will be able to consider in due course, separately from the Bill. However, the Government cannot support Lords amendment 7, which seeks to use the sledgehammer of primary legislation to change the details of planning regulations. The amendment would introduce a wholly new principle allowing local planning authorities to view national householder permitted development rights as completely optional, which would constitute a significant extension of state power over private property rights. It is also unnecessary, because a mechanism for responding to exceptional concerns in particular areas already exists.
In 2008, the previous Government extended permitted development rights for home owners—from roof extensions to rear extensions. That did not result in neighbourhood wars; nor did it mean the end of local planning. We believe there is a case for further sensible, practical reforms. In those changes, article 4 powers were reformed, and they were amended in 2010 to give greater local discretion.
Mr Pickles
This is a normal administrative process. I will check with my ministerial colleagues, but I believe a London borough—Barking, I think—is currently putting out a consultation with regard to article 4 and betting shops in the area.
There is a misunderstanding here. Where this measure relates to a sole property, we would expect notice to be served, but where it is served generally to an area, the normal process by which we inform the public about planning applications, decisions and appeals would apply.
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
I agree that to permit a local authority to opt out entirely from permitted development measures would be draconian, but does my right hon. Friend accept that there are underlying concerns that article 4 directions may not operate as well in practice as in theory? Is he therefore prepared to consider what further steps might be taken by his Department and local authorities to refine the way in which the article 4 system works?
Mr Pickles
Absolutely, and that is why we are looking towards Lord Taylor’s advice in respect of tweaking the article 4 process. It has undergone a number of changes. It changed under the last Government in 2008, and we made a change in 2010, so article 4 is not set in concrete—it is not buried under a back patio.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
Does my right hon. Friend accept that one reason why no compensation has been paid under article 4 is that local authorities are frightened to issue article 4 directives under which they may have to pay compensation?
Mr Pickles
I have enjoyed campaigning with the hon. Gentleman on other issues, but I have to say he is being highly speculative here, as there is no real evidence of such a self-denying ordinance by local authorities.
Mr Pickles
I am about to use honeyed terms to try to placate my colleagues who have concerns, but before I get to that dramatic moment, I will give way again.
Mr Walker
I do not want to keep my right hon. Friend from reaching that dramatic moment because I should observe that my Whip said I was going to hear honeyed words and an outbreak of common sense from those on the Front Bench. Some might uncharitably call that a Government climbdown, but I would describe it as listening to the concerns of Back Benchers.
Mr Pickles
And before the honeyed words arrive, I can think of nobody more appropriate to give way to than the emollient Chairman of the Select Committee.
Mr Betts
I am still struggling with understanding why the Secretary of State is resisting amendment 7 and instead arguing in favour of article 4. He says the amendment’s scope is far too wide, but that article 4 is there to be used instead. Are there therefore certain circumstances in which authorities may want to opt out of permitted development rights under amendment 7, but would not be able to use article 4? If so, what are those circumstances?
Mr Pickles
Well, one might be concerned that this might be misrepresented as a money-raising exercise—a nice little earner—for local authorities, and that it would be in their financial interests for us to accept amendment 7. It is important that the British public—or the English public in this case—have confidence in the planning system.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
I would like a little more information. Will the Secretary of State give us his forecast of how many extra extensions we would get in the first year under his proposal, and how many might be lost with the amendment?
Mr Pickles
My right hon. Friend recognises that this represents a boost to industry. [Interruption.] I am sorry if the idea of helping local builders and do-it-yourselfers and people who earn their own living is regarded as unimportant.
Mr Pickles
I feel that, somehow, I am returning to confrontational type, and I must avoid that, so let me say the honeyed words, and then I will consider giving way to the hon. Lady.
Notwithstanding my comments on this amendment, I appreciate that there is the separate issue of the detail of the Government’s planned reforms to permitted development rights. I am grieved and distressed that Lords and Members—on both sides of the House—who I would normally look to for advice, guidance and support on planning issues have concerns, so we have listened to them. The Planning Minister and my other ministerial colleague, the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster), have met colleagues from this House to hear their views, and I believe that even at this late hour we can establish a broad consensus on these practical reforms. We will listen carefully to the debate this afternoon—this is, of course, the first opportunity the House has had to debate the matter—reflect on all the points raised and consider in detail the representations made in the consultation on the secondary legislation.
I can announce today that in the spirit of consensus we will introduce a revised approach to the contentious question of permitted development rights for home extensions when the Bill returns to the Lords. If we cannot persuade the other House, the issue will return to the Commons next week so that hon. Members can debate and vote further. Given the discussions I have had with colleagues who have concerns, I believe that the problem is eminently bridgeable. I would like the opportunity to build that bridge.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, and I think that most of us have listened carefully. May I suggest that the ideas put to the other House might, when they come back to this House, be more acceptable than the proposal in front of us?
Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)
I appreciate the seriousness with which the Secretary of State has considered the representations made by Back Benchers to him and his Planning Minister, which is shown by the fact that he is dealing with this group of amendments himself. I am grateful to him for that. However, will he forgive me if I am sceptical and want to wait to see his proposals? This question has caused a great deal of grief to my district council, Chiltern district council, and to many councils across the country and I am afraid that we will not believe what he says at that Dispatch Box until we see the proposals in black and white.
Mr Pickles
Of course, I am cut to the quick by my right hon. Friend’s remarks. She does not need to rely on my persuasion, however, because no matter what happens the issue will come back to this House for consideration.
Zac Goldsmith
I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way and welcome his decision to rethink the policy, but given that Lord True’s amendment is modest, it is hard to know what further compromise the Government might accept. Will the Secretary of State provide greater clarity about what he is proposing before we are asked to vote?
Mr Pickles
Considering that I quoted a good page and a half from an excellent document that is, I hope, still in print, I am not entirely sure that the Dispatch Box is the right forum from which to attempt to negotiate the consensus I seek. My hon. Friend has absolutely nothing to lose. He will be involved in the discussions and we will seek to try to reach a sensible compromise. If he does not like it, he can go into the other Lobby and say that he was right all along.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I hope that my right hon. Friend will take this as a helpful intervention. When I was shadow floods Minister, I, in my humble capacity, and the environment, food and rural affairs team worked very closely with the local planning shadow team. We were very concerned about the flood implications of tarmacking over our drives and building extra conservatories. Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance today that that important aspect of the question has been considered?
Mr Pickles
I well remember wandering through the flooding in my hon. Friend’s constituency, complete with wellington boots, and I know that she takes an enormous interest in such matters. It is important to understand that these changes will in no way affect building regulations or the necessity to ensure flood prevention and to take sensible precautions.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
I appreciate the fact that the Secretary of State has come to the Chamber today and said that he is prepared to listen, as many of us have concerns. Like other Members, I want to know what is in his mind and what he is thinking. At this stage, I merely urge him to pick up on an adage used elsewhere: it is not all about size.
Mr Pickles
I am always glad to hear that it is not all about size; that is a comfort to me.
Mr Charles Walker
I thank my right hon. Friend for being most generous in giving way. In deciding what will happen next week, will he discuss his position and that of others with colleagues on the Back Benches so that we can reach consensus on what might be acceptable?
Mr Pickles
Absolutely. My hon. Friend the Planning Minister and my right hon. Friend the Minister—[Interruption.] The Minister from Bath, whose responsibilities are numerous. My hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend have already entered into extensive discussions and I believe, based on those discussions, that the problem is bridgeable.
Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
I think that the Secretary of State will recognise that the level of attendance in the House today for the consideration of Lords amendments shows how seriously many of us take the matter. To return to his earlier metaphor, he is a good egg and I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. He must not scramble the process, however, and I hope that he will return with substantive changes. Tinkering is not enough; we believe that the policy is seriously flawed.
Lyn Brown
I am genuinely grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, but had I heard his words from a Minister on my own side when I sat on the Government Benches, I would have thought that they were wriggle words—I would not have been persuaded. Will his ideas about what might be changed address concerns in my constituency about beds in sheds?
Mr Pickles
I cannot imagine any circumstances in which permitted development rights would allow beds in sheds. I politely remind the hon. Lady that this Government took decisive action on beds in sheds after years of neglect from Labour.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
I am really enjoying the Secretary of State’s performance this afternoon. I must say that the thought of consensus and the right hon. Gentleman does not spring to mind on many occasions. Will he put us, and particularly his Back Benchers, out of our misery and suggest what the great consensual position might be next week?
Mr Pickles
The solutions are available and my Back Benchers have come up with a number of ideas. It would be wholly wrong of me not to place on record my gratitude to the hon. Gentleman for his sterling work in exposing the waste under the previous Labour Government through a series of questions. We on this side are very grateful for all he has done and I certainly intend to put him up for a campaigning award.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
I came to the Chamber in the hope that the Secretary of State would give me some assurances that something dramatic would happen. I am not happy, however, about it being debated behind the scenes and not on the Floor of the House. The concerns of Members on both sides of the House are genuine and we feel these pressures intensely when we talk to our local councils.
Mr Pickles
As consensus goes, this is pretty damn dramatic. It is about as dramatic as consensus gets. I will certainly do my best to make my hon. Friend—and, more importantly, her constituents—happy and contented.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
I take on board the Secretary of State’s point that the LGA has not provided him with sufficient evidence, but will he accept as evidence the fact that many of us have been approached by our councils and their leaders, who have asked us to come along and support the amendment? The change is not one that councils want or one that they think that they can afford.
Mr Pickles
It has been noticeable that discussion in the Chamber is one-sided today. There is concern on the Government Benches and either complete indifference or partisan points from those on the Opposition Benches.
Mr Pickles
I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), but then I think that that must be it as others need to speak.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
I, too, would like more details about the direction of change. As most councils have extensive delegation powers, 90% of extensions go through smoothly. Why is this such a huge measure for those that need more detailed consideration for the sake of the neighbours and the whole neighbourhood?
Mr Pickles
I could not have put it better myself. I believe we can move together, arrive at a broad consensus and ensure that homeowners can see developments take place and that planning officers are not bogged down with unnecessary considerations. I welcome the important scrutiny of the Bill in the other place and the majority of the amendments proposed. In the light of the new commitment to reflect, I hope I have convinced the House that amendment 7 is unnecessary and that it should therefore not be accepted today.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
I welcome the Government’s decision to accept all but one of the amendments that were passed in the other place, in particular the sunset clause on section 106, the Secretary of State’s announcement today on the assessment of viability, the fact that at least some criteria will now be published for identifying so-called failing planning authorities, and the right hon. Gentleman’s agreement that when it comes to broadband development, the Secretary of State should have regard to the environment and the conservation of the natural beauty of our countryside.
That leaves the House with the one amendment on permitted development rights, and the very large attendance here today demonstrates the extent of concern. I listened extremely carefully to what the Secretary of State said. There have been many references to eggs in the course of the debate so far. One Member said that the Secretary of State was a good egg, but this particular egg is completely empty when it comes to the detailed proposal that he has in mind. What he said was not persuasive, not just to those on the Opposition Benches but I suspect to those on the Government Back Benches.
This is, in essence, a debate about how decisions should be taken on extensions to residential properties. It is a debate about, first, the process, and secondly, who should take those decisions. At the heart of the debate is a simple question: is it sensible for the Government to impose the change in permitted development rights on every single local planning authority in England? That is what we are debating. The Secretary of State tries to suggest that the proposal is about empowering people, but what he is trying to do is to take away the rights of neighbours to object to developments that they think will affect their rights and their amenity. That is why there is so much concern.
I think it is a centralist proposal that the right hon. Gentleman has advanced. I do not think that it will give the boost to the economy that is being claimed, because I do not think the back gardens of England should be made the victims of the failure of the Government’s economic policy.
Mrs Main
Regrettably, the only reason this proposal would have any economic benefit is that the scale of such developments would be so large that people would scramble to go and get the thing built before anybody could object to it. I am very unhappy about it. In 2005 we had the high hedges legislation, whereby anything over 2 metres was considered un-neighbourly, and now we are hearing proposals for something that is 4 metres high by 8 metres. This will potentially be extremely divisive in communities. I really feel that the Secretary of State could have offered us a little more today, although I know that he is in a very difficult place in this regard. I believe that in areas such as St Albans, particularly when we have no definitions of curtilage or gardens, this will be a very divisive and ruinous issue.
Mr Pickles
I think that I can offer the reassurances that colleagues are seeking. It is not a question of simply taking my word for it, regarding me as a good egg, or whatever. The simple truth is that this proposal has got to come back here to be discussed and voted on. I need the help and assistance of colleagues to ensure that the proposal is voted down. If we do not vote it down, we cannot arrive at a consensus. This would be a wholly unusual and strange process. It would take a sledgehammer to planning system, and that is wholly wrong. I believe that we can give the assurances that my hon. Friends seek, but we need some time to discuss this with right hon. and hon. Members, and then, whatever the outcome, it will come back here on 23 April; that is certain. I ask my hon. Friends to look most carefully at this issue, to support the Government, and, by so doing, to support the rights of property owners and local authorities.
Bob Blackman
There are two key concerns here: first, the rights of local authorities; and secondly—