Finance Bill

Lord Mann Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

The double taxation agreements are part of the international structure, but that is not the only element that determines whether the UK tax system is competitive. The point I am arguing is that our engagement and the leadership shown by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor represent the right way to go about changing how multinationals are taxed. I would consider, for example, what came out of the Lough Erne summit and, more broadly, measures to ensure that people pay the right amount of tax, as well as the dramatic progress that has been made including, on tax evasion, the exchange of information between Crown dependencies and overseas territories, and indeed the creation of a new international norm based on the American Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA. That is a big step forward, and we continue to take steps, leading the way in this multinational effort to give tax authorities new tools to deal with tax avoidance by providing more information about beneficial ownership. All those are steps that can help us to deal with tax avoidance and tax evasion. I hope they will be welcomed by all Members of the House.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

May I say how pleased I am to hear that the Minister is a converted Blairite these days? In extolling the virtues of what he has done with the overseas territories, he has ignored the fact that none of us, including Treasury officials, knows who owns what company and what company structures are there, and therefore what moneys are around. That includes some of the big banks and state-owned banks.

[Mr Gauke]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who brings me on neatly to the next issue, which is registration of ownership. New clause 12(2) asks for a review of the effects of

“a global standard for public registration of ownership of companies and trusts via a convention on tax transparency”.

At the recent Lough Erne summit, the G8 leaders all committed to work internationally to ensure that tax collectors and law enforcers can easily obtain information about who really owns companies. That represents real progress in the UK’s aim to secure a substantial change in international tax transparency. That is an important point and something that we have been pressing. We have agreement from the overseas territories to develop their plans to ensure that there is access to information on beneficial ownership.

[John Mann]

I thank the Minister for generously giving way. We do not even know in this country about thousands of companies based here because inadequate returns are made to Companies House, which has neither the wherewithal nor, it would appear, the desire to do anything about that. How on earth is anyone meant to get on top of structures abroad when we are not even on top of corporate structures in this country?

[Mr Gauke]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me into an area that I am very much looking forward to debating with him on Thursday afternoon. He has secured a debate on that very subject, so perhaps I shall keep some of my powder dry for that occasion. The point that I am making is that the Government are making substantial progress in this area and we also have an international agenda, ensuring that other countries move as well, so that there is much more information about beneficial ownership. That is not to say that the job is done and that there are not challenges that we face, but we have made a great deal of progress, particularly at the recent Lough Erne summit. That should be acknowledged.

Returning to new clause 12, the final element takes us back to an issue that we have debated previously, which is a requirement on the Government to assess how UK companies could report avoidance of tax in developing countries and how assistance could be offered in the recovery of that tax.

Under the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes—DOTAS—regime, UK companies are already obliged to report to HMRC their use of tax avoidance schemes carrying certain hallmarks. That applies to avoidance schemes that have an impact on developing countries, but only where UK taxes are affected.

The Opposition’s new clause 12 effectively suggests that Her Majesty’s Government should require UK companies to report their use of tax schemes, so that developing countries’ tax authorities can be notified of tax avoidance schemes, and that the Government should assist them in recovering any tax lost. It is unlikely that HMRC will have sufficient understanding of the details of developing countries’ tax systems to enable it to do that.

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[Nigel Mills]

I am not sure that we should use the term “UK-owned” as I am not sure that our friends in Jersey or Guernsey would appreciate that kind of description, although perhaps it is true in respect of the Crown. The hon. Lady is right that we should set an example of leadership, however, and try to ensure that the territories over which we have some influence have rules that comply with global standards. We heard some encouraging noises from the UK’s overseas territories when they agreed some issues with the Prime Minister before the G8 summit. Quite a few have taken pretty good steps in the direction of transparency by signing information exchange agreements, so we should not impugn them all with the same accusations, as some are clearly more a matter of concern than others.

Let me return to the proposal to require the publication of corporation tax returns. The requirements applying to UK company accounts include a requirement to publish a tax note that reconciles accounting profit with the tax charge and lists the key factors involved. It was intended to provide a summary of the tax return in some respects. If the tax charge is materially different from, say, 24% of the accounting profit, the reasons should be set out so that the user of the accounts can understand what is happening.

I have probably read more sets of accounts than most Members of Parliament. I am not sure that the tax note takes the user any further, because it is so brief, because there are so many ways of merging entries, and because of the impact of deferred tax. The note was designed to deal with the absence of complete transparency in regard to corporate tax affairs, but I think we could achieve that much more effectively by requiring the publication of actual tax returns. That would not reveal too many commercially sensitive data; indeed, I think that far more information is required in a set of statutory accounts than would ever be required in a corporation tax return.

We would probably not be acting unilaterally, given the disclosures that are required by many other stock exchanges around the world. The disclosures required by, for example, the Securities and Exchange Commission for its listed corporations are well in excess of those required in the UK. I do not think that this simple step would put us out of line with the rest of the world. Given requirements to disclose the tax amounts, taxable profits, how they were arrived at, and the details of overseas transactions with related parties, including amounts and charges, I do not consider it particularly onerous for a company to be required to declare “We have paid royalties of £5 million to our US parent.” In fact, many sets of accounts include such declarations. There are measures that we could take as a UK regime that would not harm our standing in the world.

I think that if there is one action that will damage prospects for UK investment, it is allowing a series of large multinational investors to be dragged through the newspapers, hauled over the coals and accused of engaging in abusive tax practices, especially when they are innocent. We do not want a regime that allows information relating to selected people to be leaked. Let us enable that information to be clearly, generally and widely published so that everyone can see who is responsible for bad behaviour, rather than trying to attack those who are innocently taking advantage of reliefs that we have sensibly introduced.

Although I agree with the intention behind most of new clause 12, I do not think that it will work. I have proposed a way of ensuring that the information we need is in the public domain year after year without imposing an unacceptable burden on UK corporate taxpayers. Perhaps the Opposition will back that proposal, which I shall continue to advance whenever we debate an issue that we have probably already debated half a dozen times this year.

[John Mann]

It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills). I trust that Opposition Front Benchers were taking detailed notes, because the hon. Gentleman speaks common sense. It is no surprise that Ministers repeatedly ignore that common sense.

Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I am not volunteering to sit annually on the Finance Bill Committee. I was sadly not afforded the honour of participating this year, but the opportunity to participate in a debate on the Floor of the House could not be missed. I shall confine myself to expressing avid support for the excellent new clause 12 rather than straying into matters that would be better dealt with in the Backbench Business Committee’s debate on Thursday, in which I urge all Members to take part. I want to allow some of the adjuncts of matters raised in this debate—not least the issues of the role of Companies House, company structure and formation, and company records—to be discussed in appropriate detail, so that future Governments can be informed of what they should do, and the current coalition can be informed of what it has failed to do.

We know why the rhetoric from Government Front Benchers is as it is. They all now wish to become a bunch of pasty eaters and to be recognised in society and by the electorate for the way in which they are battling for the little man against the big multinationals. However, when it comes to the detail, the natural instincts of those on the Conservative Treasury Bench overwhelm the common sense of people such as the hon. Member for Amber Valley and other Back Benchers, who have pragmatic, practical, positive ideas that could be considered immediately. Some could be put into action.

What those Ministers fall back on is the perceived vested interest of the multinational. We have a charade, led by the Prime Minister and his sidekick the Chancellor —the Liberals are counted out of this; they are not important enough when it comes to economic matters—where the Government try to portray themselves as wishing to grab additional taxation. They have put up taxation such as VAT on the motorist, the consumer and the rest of society, so Conservative Front Benchers are a bunch of tax grabbers. Through the minimal changes that they are proposing and through the Prime Minister’s proposals to the G8, they wish to portray themselves as being the ones who are going to roll back against the multinationals.

[Kerry McCarthy]

My hon. Friend is, as ever, making a powerful case. We see the mismatch between the rhetoric and the action of the Government on other issues such as climate change; they claim to be the greenest Government ever, yet they do not implement measures such as the decarbonisation targets. Is he aware that, after the Prime Minister spoke at the G8 saying that he would tackle the tax issue, the Finance Bill Committee refused to consider amendments on the issue? Enough Food IF said:

“It seems like Treasury ministers haven’t got the memo. The government is saying one thing while doing another.”

Is that not exactly what is happening?

[John Mann]

I do so wish I had been offered the chance to sit on the Finance Bill Committee in order, day after day, to be able to get into the details and hold the Government more to account, although sadly next year ends with a 4 and I am unable in any year that ends with a 4 to sit on a Finance Bill Committee.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Following the G8 summit, the Prime Minister said that the provisions of the summit would raise about £1 billion for the Exchequer, which leaves about £29 billion unaccounted for, according to HMRC. Has the hon. Gentleman’s Front-Bench team informed him how much new clause 12 would raise for the Exchequer?

[John Mann]

I am sure that it will be a damn sight more than that.

[Catherine McKinnell]

I thought I would take this opportunity to say that we have thoroughly missed my hon. Friend on the Finance Bill Committee this year. In response to the intervention by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), I point out that the new clause asks for a review of how these aims can be achieved. The cost of HMRC undertaking the review would be the issue to consider.

[John Mann]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. In this matter, as in many matters, my approach is to beef up my own Front Bench, as well as expose the fallacies, weakness and hypocrisy of the Conservative Front Bench and the absence of anything from the Liberal Front Bench. Therefore, the stronger the Opposition Front Bench is in the practical detail, and in saying to the British public that it is unfair and unjust that these large companies pay so little tax that a company such as Starbucks pays less than a café in the centre of Worksop, the better. How can that in any way be just?

This is not just about justice, however. Those of us on the Opposition Benches must articulate the fact that this is about economic efficiency. Let us consider the small entrepreneur or the new company, the company looking to grow, or the company that has reached its place in society, such as a small family café that is providing an excellent service to the community and that pays its taxes and is being undercut by multinationals. How can they compete with large multinationals avoiding their taxes?

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[Stella Creasy]

I should start by saying that I have been remiss in respect of reading the Worksop Guardian, but I will wager that it is full of comments from people who are concerned about value for money in our taxation system and those who are desperately concerned about the impact of cuts on local services. Those cuts have been driven by the fact that we do not get the tax-take in this country that we seek. This new clause and new clause 12 seek to help the Government to be better at collecting tax. Does my hon. Friend think that that would go down well with the readers of the Worksop Guardian?

[John Mann]

I think the readers of the Worksop Guardian will hear my hon. Friend’s comments. Those such as your good self, Mr Speaker, who are expert at using the internet can read those pearls of wisdom without having to go all the way to Worksop or order a copy at this difficult time for the parliamentary budget. I recommend it to all.

Although I failed to be selected to serve on the Finance Bill Committee, I am prepared to volunteer for a new task, if it is not too late to do so. This relates directly to new clause 4 and the Minister’s speech, and I should make it abundantly clear that I am prepared to accept the task for no additional salary, directly or indirectly. It is to do with the advisory panel on the GAAR. If its members have not yet been selected, surely the Minister would love the opportunity to select an Opposition Member who is prepared to ask some questions that the public would perhaps want asked. I would be prepared to sit on this body without additional remuneration, should the Minister, the Government and the House wish that to happen. The Minister is not intervening, so perhaps I will have to put in a written application as well.

The question of the overseas territories is very important. Hansard will record precisely what the Minister said some minutes ago, but I shall paraphrase his comments as I did not have the opportunity to take down his exact words verbatim. In essence he said that we are the leaders in the world in dealing with tax avoiders, we are showing the way, and we are going to ensure that this all happens, yet we should not do more than anybody else. But the UK Crown dependencies and overseas territories are not German, French or American, and they rely on the British armed services to protect them in times of crisis or against the threat of invasion or assault. They rely on the British legal system and on the British royal family as part of their very essence, as democracies. Therefore, our relationship with these territories is a symbiotic one, in which we should expect absolute transparency in all matters relating to taxation and to companies and individuals from here.

The banks are the worst examples of complex structures that they themselves do not understand. They allow money laundering from Mexican gangsters—the worst kind—as proven by many successful US court proceedings. Big banks at the top are happy to tell us that they do not understand their own structures because they are so complex, but the structures are established in order to maximise profit—in other words, to minimise taxation—in territories that rely on our armed services, on our legal system and our democracy to underpin and oversee them. That is a cost to us that we rightly bear, yet corporates and individuals can hide things behind the opaqueness of structures there, so that these days my constituents cannot even discover who owns their football club and what moneys are there. This applies to even the most simple of examples, never mind the biggest and most complex of banks, financial institutions and other multinationals.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I wish to give one example. The Cayman Islands have a population of about 57,000, yet 92,000 companies are based there and it is estimated by the Bank for International Settlements that $1.4 trillion of bank assets and liabilities are there. My hon. Friend has raised an important question: how on earth can a country that is so small govern what Professor Jeffrey Sachs describes as a financial “time bomb” in its own territory?

[John Mann]

Somebody is making money, because my own football club would appear to have been part-based in the Cayman Islands, in a structure that then took it into the British Virgin Islands and into Monaco and who knows where else. There are intricate webs criss-crossing these so-called “tax-efficient countries”—these tax havens for tax dodgers, corporate and individual. This Bill follows the biggest financial crisis since the 1930s, with working people losing real income year by year, unemployment rising, a worldwide recession, and people less well-off than they were five years ago. The Bill, however, contains no constructive, detailed, productive proposals on how we are going to deal with these territories. We spend taxpayers’ money providing the armed services to guarantee them and then we turn around and claim that we are the world leaders. I say poppycock to us being the world leaders. This is an excuse of a policy. This is an excuse of an attempt in a Finance Bill. This is an embarrassment to the coalition partners, who would love, if they could come up with some ideas, a robustness to put behind it.

The big dividing point in British politics at the moment is this unwillingness to deal with the tax dodgers. These little clauses—new clause 4 and new clause 12—in their own small way encompass the problem in front of us and in front of the British people.

[Mr Newmark]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Mann]

I will certainly give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has recently entered the Chamber.

[Mr Newmark]

I felt that the hon. Gentleman might need to refuel a little, as he was running out of breath. I am curious—given that many of the unions and pension funds invest in funds that invest in offshore places such as the Cayman Islands, making a lot of money for ex-union members and pensioners, will he suggest that the Labour party recommends that those unions and pension funds no longer use fund managers who invest in those offshore entities?

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[Mr Speaker]

I have known the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) for 27 years and I can think of a long list of adjectives that could, in various scenarios, be applied to him, but breathless is not one of them.

[John Mann]

But on this occasion, Mr Speaker—one scratches one’s head at some interventions, which are so inaccurate, so irrelevant and so unconnected to the clause. I will not rise to the bait, Mr Speaker, and risk your ire by explaining to the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) exactly how the unions invest their money, interesting though that subject would be. I fear your wrath, Mr Speaker, if I did so. Instead, I shall return to the key core theme of the clauses, which is morality—

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. In his shy, retiring and meek way he is making some interesting points. I sometimes wish he would come out of his shell a bit more and tell us what he actually thinks. He weakens his case, does he not, when he tries to say that this is a party political matter? Last week, my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) highlighted how little money water companies and utilities were paying in tax in this country. My hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) has a website with a record of what corporate taxes are being paid by major corporates in this country. I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee, and across the parties on the Committee there has been a big push in this area. Is it not better for us to work together to try to sort it out?

[John Mann]

I thank the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris)—the fruit and veg man, a successful small business man—and I commend him. He is another on the Tory Back Benches like the hon. Member for Amber Valley, whom I specifically itemised in precise praise, as I did in last year’s Bill Committee, encouraging him to press to a vote his sensible and modest proposals to simplify the tax system. He would have had my support in that. In this House, there are times when we need to work across the parties to deal with an incompetent Treasury Front-Bench team. I would welcome further discussions beyond this Chamber with the hon. Gentlemen and others on the Conservative Benches about how best those of us who fully understand—be it a café in Worksop, or the fruit and veg man in Daventry or the accountant in Amber Valley—the economic inefficiency of this Prime Minister, this Chancellor and this immoral Treasury Front Bench’s failure to deal with tax dodgers, tax avoiders, corporate structures and the opaqueness of the overseas territories.

As a country, through this Government, we are unwilling to give the international lead that our position in providing defence and other support to the Cayman Islands and many others requires. That economic efficiency, that justice and that morality would liberate good British companies who are prepared to do the decent thing and to pay modest, small amounts of taxation rather than avoiding their appropriate duty to do so. That is what competition in the market is about and what those of us on the Opposition Benches are about. It is also what some—I am happy to give them plaudits—on the Conservative and Liberal Back Benches are about, but it is absent from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and Treasury Front-Benchers, who are devoid of it. They do not get the real world, have not come from it and will never understand it. They do not get what the public and small businesses are saying. I would suggest that they do not really care about that, because they are interested in their paymasters and in ensuring that the status quo remains. They are failing to challenge vested interests.

[Stella Creasy]

I am sorry to stop my hon. Friend mid-flow because he is making a powerful case not only for the readership of the Worksop Guardian, but for being on a Bill Committee with him, especially when it comes to finance measures. That would clearly be a unique experience. Does he agree that new clause 12 would be beneficial because it offers an opportunity to gather the evidence on the tax take that would show whether the Prime Minister’s warm words about tackling tax avoidance were being put into practice? I agree with the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), who talked about Members on both sides of the House being interested in the matter, but one thing we all need is the information. The new clause offers precisely that opportunity.

[John Mann]

The new clause is so modest and so moderate. How could any reasonable and rational Member of the House possibly not vote for it? I would go much further and give more robustness, including a great wealth of powers to ensure that those overseas territories and Crown dependencies were forced to give economic efficiency, justice and morality in return for the defence and everything else that they get from this country, but I recognise that one needs a majority in the House to do such things. Therefore, I appeal to those decent, sensible, smiling Back Benchers to join us in an historic vote tonight—vote with the Opposition.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

I understand the real passion that the hon. Gentleman brings to the debate, as he often does, but I have some concerns. It is great to see a politician put his body on the line, wanting to ensure that he serves on the GAAR board, but is this now a bid for him better to represent the British overseas territories in Parliament as well? Has he consulted the residents of Retford and of Worksop to check whether they can spare him, given all the hard work that he is doing in the constituency?

[John Mann]

I fear that due to our expedition next year with injured British soldiers, which I expect to take place via the parliamentary mountaineering group, I will perhaps be too busy to make a big commitment of time other than to that great cause, which the hon. Gentleman and I hope to push forward with other mountaineers and injured servicemen.

The hon. Gentleman gives us a timely reminder of priorities. I give that reminder to those on the Treasury Bench. This is about priorities: their priorities in government, which are the wrong priorities, the failed priorities, letting down the small businesses and the honest taxpayers of Britain. That is who they are letting down tonight and who they have been letting down for three years. Here is a modest opportunity for those who wish to save their seats: join the Opposition, do the right thing—the modest, the moderate thing—and support new clause 12.

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[Chris Leslie]

It is good to see the Minister popping up in the debates on the Finance Bill for the first time, at the eleventh hour. [Interruption.] That is not true; I apologise. He took part in Committee of the whole House, although he did not do the heavy lifting in Committee upstairs. Perhaps it seems now as though it never happened.

This is an interesting little Government new clause. Because of the hour, it would not be surprising if hon. Members’ eyes glazed over and they did not necessarily spot what is going on, but this is an admission from the Government that their bank levy has not been successful. In fact, they are having retrospectively to adjust the rules around the bank levy to make sure that they can net in the supposed £2.5 billion of revenue that the Prime Minister, no less, promised it would yield.

Let us recall the facts about the bank levy. In the last financial year, 2012-13, the bank levy did not bring in £2.5 billion, it did not even bring in £2 billion—it brought in a pathetic £1.6 billion. We should not forget that that does not include the cut in corporation tax that the Chief Secretary and others collaborating in the coalition gave away to the banks at that time. In other words, it raised a net £1.4 billion—a shortfall of over £1 billion on the amount that the Government said that it was supposed to produce. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), and others in the Chamber, could certainly think of ways in which £1 billion of revenue could be put to good use. That was the giveaway that the design of the bank levy set in train for the banks. It raised not £2.5 billion but just £1.4 billion in the last financial year.

It is worse than that, because in the previous financial year, 2011-12, the bank levy raised just £1.8 billion. Deducting from that the £100 million in corporation tax, it raised a net £1.7 billion. The levy has not brought in the money it should have. The Government said that it would raise £2.5 billion, but in total it has brought in £1.9 billion—nearly £2 billion—which is less than they said it would raise.

If any other Department promised to bring in £5 billion over those two financial years but raised only £3 billion, there should and would be outrage. However, given that the Treasury hide a lot of these issues in the complex lexicon of bank taxation, many would be forgiven for not spotting that this is an absolute scandal.

[John Mann]

I thank my hon. Friend for inviting me to suggest what this money could be spent on. The infrastructure projects of Serlby Park school and Elkesley bridge—not started in three years under this Government—are shovel-ready and could immediately be commenced. I have launched a campaign today to send a postcard a day to the Chancellor until he gets his shovel out and starts work on them.

[Chris Leslie]

That is the point. The Government like to say that they are trying their best to bring in revenues, but when it comes to the banks and the wealthy they have a blind spot. Is that any wonder when nearly £2 billion of bank levy money has gone uncollected over the past two financial years?

Will the Minister give us an absolute, cast-iron commitment that the £2.5 billion from both 2011-12 and 2012-13 will retrospectively be brought into the Treasury? That, as a basic minimum, should be the intention of this new clause, although I do not necessarily think that it is the only tweak that will have to be made to the bank levy. Can we be sure that the lost £2 billion will be brought into the Treasury?

Will the Minister confirm that, by making this change, he is in effect ceding the bank levy policy to the regulators? If tax deductibility for liquid asset buffers is to be set by the regulators, does that not mean that bank levy policy will henceforth be in the hands of the Financial Policy Committee and the Prudential Regulation Authority? Will the Minister explain the consequences of last week’s decision by the Financial Policy Committee to relax the liquidity buffer rules for many of the banks? That big change will reduce significantly the amount of liquidity that banks are required to hold. That could be good news, because it may mean that there will be less tax deductibility for bank levy purposes. Will the bank levy be allowed to rise above £2.5 billion—that would be welcome—or will the Minister adjust the revenue available back down to £2.5 billion for each financial year even though the liquidity deductibility is not relevant in this particular case?

Will the Minister also explain whether the regulators will be given the right in statute to define equity or other liabilities? Other aspects of the bank levy that are enshrined in legislation could nevertheless be affected by the regulators, such as the definition of capital requirement.

I want a sense of what the new clause will do. We know that the Government are soft on the bankers because they do not want to repeat the bonus levy, which will result in a big tax cut for those bankers who did very well on their bonuses—they went up 64% in one month—in April. We also know that the millionaires’ tax cut has handed 643 bankers in this country a tax cut of at least £54,000 a year, so they are doing very well. We want to hear commitments on the bank levy. Will the Minister bring in the full £2.5 billion for financial years 2011-12 and 2012-13?