Legal Aid: Social Welfare and Family Law
Lord Burnett of Maldon Excerpts(4 days, 6 hours ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I will undertake to look at that. I am not aware of it in detail; I know that various pilots have been undertaken. I will write to the noble Lord.
Lord Burnett of Maldon (CB)
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, have referred to the cost that falls on the courts as a result of the removal of legal aid for parents in dispute over their children. That is robbing Peter to pay Paul. I wonder whether the Government could take account also of the wider costs of the removal of legal aid in family cases which flow because parents at war are not as economically effective as they would otherwise be. People at war become ill, and there is untold damage done to the children as they are caught up in protracted disputes that need not happen. When the Minister is undertaking the review he referred to, would he take those matters into account?
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I think the noble and learned Lord has hit the nail on the head. Private family law hearings are a destructive process. It is not unusual for situations to get worse for the people engaging in them, in my experience. Having the legal representation helps the court, and it is something I hope we can work towards over time. However, there are other initiatives, such as the pathfinder project, such as early legal advice, such as mediation vouchers, which we would like to use to divert couples away from the court system where it is appropriate and there is not risk to the children.
Prison Capacities
Lord Burnett of Maldon Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Burnett of Maldon (CB)
My Lords, I add two points to those already made. First, there is much talk of prison capacity, but it is important to appreciate the difference between capacity in the sense of how many can be crammed in and the real capacity of our prisons. The Ministry of Justice has its own “baseline certified normal accommodation”, designed to provide decent accommodation. At the end of August, its figures suggested that it was about 8,500 over that baseline—perhaps fewer today. The adverse consequences are well understood. Its baseline, in its own words,
“represents the good, decent standard of accommodation”.
When does the ministry expect to achieve that level of decency and return to its baseline?
Secondly, overcrowded prisons risk the courts seizing up. During my final months in office as Lord Chief Justice, I received daily prison figures, broken down region by region. There was a risk that people being remanded into custody or sentenced would have nowhere to go—and, if they cannot be taken away, the work of the court is paralysed.
We have seen two interventions by the senior judiciary to delay cases that were likely to result in custody to avoid that eventuality. There are also prisoners being located far from courts in which they are appearing, resulting in transportation problems and delays in their hearings. I observed to colleagues on more than one occasion that we were only one riot away from meltdown—and so, alas, it has transpired.
Severe overcrowding in our prisons has a multiplicity of adverse consequences beyond the most obvious. There is little realistic prospect of substantially expanding prison capacity in the near term. That is, in any event, the wrong solution. The record number of those in custody must come down.