British Nationals Detained Overseas
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(7 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Ms Rimmer
I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Mr Lai is accused of violating the new national security law in Hong Kong. Leaving aside our Government’s failure to properly hold China to account for reneging on the Sino-British joint declaration, there is still a duty to protect British nationals. Mr Lai awaits trial this month, yet the Chinese Communist authorities are trying to block his attempt to hire a British defence lawyer.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend raises an important point about people’s access to justice and consular services when detained illegitimately or even legitimately. Other countries require a minimum level of support from their Foreign Offices and consular services, including the provision of approved lawyers. That would mean lawyers approved in other countries but certified by Britain. Is that something that we should consider doing in order to ensure that our consular services are protecting our nationals wherever they are?
Ms Rimmer
I agree with my hon. Friend; of course we should be doing that. It is about justice, not rigged justice.
The use of foreign lawyers by both prosecution and defence is a long-established tradition in Hong Kong. Only last month, the Foreign Secretary met the Chinese Vice-President, Mr Han, known as the architect of China’s crackdown in Hong Kong. The Foreign Secretary raised the case of Mr Lai, but did not go far enough. It is British values that are on trial: the values of freedom and democracy, which we signed a treaty to uphold. The Prime Minister should raise this with the Chinese regime at the highest possible level.
Cases of British citizens being detained abroad are not limited to the middle east and Asia. In 2021, Mr Nnamdi Kanu, a British citizen, was abducted by Nigerian security forces in Nairobi, Kenya. Since his detention, he has been subjected to torture and many other unpleasantries. A United Nations Human Rights Council report released a damning assessment of the Nigerian Government’s treatment and called for his immediate release.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) has worked tirelessly on behalf of Mr Kanu and is urging the Foreign Secretary to do more to secure his release. Nigeria is a Commonwealth nation that receives tens of millions in UK aid; it is one of the biggest beneficiaries. As part of that aid support, there must be a commitment to human rights and upholding the right to a fair trial. Mr Kanu must be given access to a fair and due process. A British citizen travelling on a British passport should not be kidnapped in a third country and dragged to a Nigerian prison. The Government need to get much tougher.
Another case I will raise is that of Alaa Abd-El Fattah, a British-Egyptian activist who was detained in Egypt. Once again, he has been detained and denied fair and due process. He even took to hunger strike in prison to protest against his treatment. The Egyptian authorities also denied his British citizenship and refused British consular support. Our Government need to insist that Mr Abd-El Fattah gets that assistance.
Only this week, the Foreign Office was told by the parliamentary ombudsman to make a formal apology to Matthew Hedges, who was accused of spying and tortured in the United Arab Emirates. The Foreign Office failed to do its duty to Mr Hedges, a British citizen being tortured by a country we consider one of our closest allies in the region. The chief executive of the ombudsman’s office, Rebecca Hilsenrath, described Mr Hedges’ experience as a “nightmare” that was
“made even worse by being failed by the British Government.”
Quite frankly, that is not good enough, and it calls into question whether the current guidelines need reviewing.
The cases that I have raised are examples. There are many others that I could have gone into, and I am sure that other colleagues present may well do so. I appreciate that these cases are often complex and no country is the same when it comes to Foreign Office engagement. However, there is much more we can do, especially with countries that we financially support. We can also work with our allies to take a much tougher stance on state hostage taking in countries such as Iran.
Many British citizens detained abroad do not even get the necessary consular assistance. That is why Labour is looking to introduce a legal right to consular assistance, which I am sure that the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West), will go into in further detail. Consular support to British citizens must be a given. After all, it is the first duty of Government to look after their citizens.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(10 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Leo Docherty
We support the Euro-Atlantic efforts to bring the two sides together. We have urged our interlocutors in both Armenia and Azerbaijan to get back around the table. I look forward to updating my hon. Friend in person.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
James Cleverly
Our bilateral relationship with Türkiye is important. It is a NATO ally and is heavily involved in the facilitation of the Black sea grain initiative, which is helping to feed starving people around the world. I note the hon. Gentleman’s points about the election, which we will look into, but ultimately it is in our bilateral and indeed regional interests to maintain a strong working relationship with Türkiye, and that will continue to be the case.
Overseas Territories
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(11 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Alicia Kearns
I am sure a number of colleagues plan to talk about that in their speeches, so I will make progress with my own points so that colleagues will not have their speeches cut short.
Our debate today is one not of a paternalistic House of Commons, but of a body of representatives that recognises that within families there are responsibilities but also great opportunities. Today, I will set out specific requests but also commonalities that need to be raised within our family. In response to the point made by my hon. Friend, it is worth reiterating that all British overseas territories enjoy the right to self-determination, as set out in article 1 of the UN charter. They decide their own Government and their own constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom. The fact that they have decided to maintain a constitutional link with us does not diminish this most sacred of rights. I am sure the whole House will join me in reiterating our wholehearted and unwavering commitment to defending that principle, in spirt and in law.
While we believe that there is no question or debate over the right to self-determination, some members of our family face those seeking to undermine that fundamental right. At the G20 talks in March this year, Argentina unilaterally ended the 2016 pact on the Falkland Islands. That was wrong. The Government must continue to reject any demands from Argentina to revisit the issue of the sovereignty of the Falklands. We must be clear that the right to determine the future of the Falkland Islands is the sole prerogative of its islanders. In 2013, 99.8% of all Falklanders who voted chose to remain British. There is no debate over the right to self-determination.
I draw the House’s attention to another area where the Falklanders require our support. Under the United Nations Committee of 24, the Falkland Islands is currently classified as a non-self-governing territory, but we know that is factually incorrect, both under the first Falklands constitution, signed in 1985, and under the new constitution, signed into law by Her Majesty the Queen in 2009. The Falkland Islands is self-governing but willing to refer its foreign and defence policy to the United Kingdom. The Government should help the Falklands to correct that misclassification, so that the Falkland Islands will be recognised at the UN as the proud, self-governing territory that it is.
On the subject of sovereignty, I turn to Gibraltar and its right to remain a UK overseas territory. Under the double lock guarantee, the UK has given a solemn assurance that it will never enter into any negotiation on Gibraltar’s sovereignty in which Gibraltar is not content. The post-Brexit negotiations are not yet concluded and we must ensure they are guided by the double lock principle. I am sure the House would condemn any future compromise on that. If, for whatever reason, Gibraltar is left with no negotiated outcome, I would urge the Government to provide the support needed to deal with any economic uncertainty and ensure the continued success of the Rock.
While overseas territories choose to remain part of our global family, that does not mean we should blindly accept the status quo. We should challenge ourselves to provide the best possible support for their individual hopes and needs, and try to support them to achieve those. We should embed engagement across Government directly with overseas territories, rather than relying on all manner of priorities to be dealt with through the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office as some sort of arbiter.
There is widespread frustration about just how difficult it is to engage in even basic dialogue with Government Departments. Surely, given our belief in self-determination, it is only right that overseas territories make their own case to Government Departments, rather than relying on the Foreign Office to act as messenger. They make their own case best when their voices are heard. That will also help to tackle any lingering belief in paternalistic governance.
The Foreign Affairs Committee made that recommendation in 2019, because neither the territories nor their citizens are foreign. Therefore, it is fundamentally at odds to have them supported through the Foreign Office. I urge the Government to drastically change how OTs are treated. That starts with beefing up the powers of the overseas territories directorate so that it is not seen as some sort of backwater—I apologise to civil servants observing the Chamber today—and ensuring it has the powers that are needed and that Ministers give it sufficient focus. I also urge the Minister to have all Government Departments update their strategies on the OTs, because not one of them is less than a decade old. That cannot be right; we need to update the individual strategies.
The UK’s relationship with OTs is characterised by obligations and opportunities on both sides. We face problems, including in protecting our oceans. The British maritime estate is the fifth largest in the world. It offers sanctuary to a plethora of wildlife from the south Atlantic to the Indian and Pacific oceans. Some 94% of unique British wildlife can be found in the territories, from breeding turtles in Ascension, coral reefs in Pitcairn and great whales in the Falklands to the many species that call the tropical forests of St Helena and Montserrat home. In addition, I encourage all wildlife lovers to make sure they follow the long-awaited hatching of osprey eggs in Rutland, which is expected in the coming days.
Britain plays a leading role in global conservation, thanks to the partnership of our territories and two key initiatives: the Blue Belt and Darwin Plus programmes. Without our global family, this would not be the case. It is safe to say that our overseas territory communities contribute more to protecting the ocean, per head of population, than anywhere else on earth, so we should be grateful for their contribution as part of the global British family.
Environmental initiatives demonstrate the power of partnership, but there are other areas in which the UK can do more as a partner. One such area is education. All overseas territory citizens are British citizens, yet they were finally granted access to tuition loans when studying in the UK only in 2022. The process for applying for a tuition loan remains far too complicated for those from OTs, not least because they have to send in their applications by post, which may be convenient for people who live in Rutland or lovely Melton Mowbray, of pork pie fame, but is slightly more difficult for those who live in St Helena, which is nearly 5,000 miles from the UK.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the hon. Lady not think it is a great shame that the newly established University of Gibraltar is not entitled to accept British students on home fees or to access the UCAS system? It works one way but it is not reciprocal, and that needs to change if we are a true family.
Alicia Kearns
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. We may not always agree, but on that we absolutely do. I am sure that if Mr Speaker was in the Chair, he would be entirely in support of the hon. Gentleman’s point, because he is the Chancellor of the University of Gibraltar —I am sure he will reward the hon. Gentleman later this afternoon.
Education is key, and another issue is that should OT citizens come here to study, they cannot access maintenance loans to support them. University life is already too expensive and we can better support those who come to the UK. It is a matter of fairness.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
I commend almost everything that the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) just said. I shall focus on a number of areas, one of which is the UN committee that looks at the decolonisation of territories. Currently, all our overseas territories are listed as non-self-governing territories; in fact, we hold most of the non-self-governing territories on that list. There are four ways to be removed from that list and becoming normalised in international relations.
I recently visited Gibraltar, where the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee has just launched an inquiry on the current status of the overseas territories. One of the deputy premier’s top priorities for Gibraltar was to be removed from that list. I had similar conversations in the Falkland Islands, where there is the same determined wish to be removed from it.
There are only four ways to be removed from the list. The first three are to become a sovereign state, to gain free association—a number of states have done so with New Zealand—or to be fully integrated into Britain. We should remind ourselves that that is the model that Malta voted for and asked for and that this place blocked it, which I think was wrong. I believe it must now be stated very clearly that that is always an option for any territory. I should love to hear the Minister say that, if a territory wants to be integrated—that is, to be able to send MPs to this place—it will be welcome to do so.
There is also the possibility of a bespoke option. The problem is that the UN committee consists of China, Cuba, Iran, Russia, Syria and Venezuela. While the first three options involve “yes or no” questions, the fourth requires a vote in the committee, and there is clearly no chance—no hope in this world—that its members are ever going to vote for a bespoke option for a British overseas territory. We must therefore find a clever solution that fulfils the aim of one of the other three—a solution that involves a binary choice, does not require a vote in the committee and involves a “yes or no” question—to allow those territories to be normalised in international law.
That is important to the overseas territories because it gives them access to certain elements of the United Nations, and allows them to stand proud on the international stage However, it also requires Britain to make it clear that these territories are self-governing and that they decide their future. I was pleased to hear what was said earlier about the British Indian Ocean Territory. We must make it clear that people who were displaced through no fault of their own should have the right to engage in discussions about the sovereignty of the piece of land concerned. We should, of course, also offer a decent remuneration package, whatever the outcome. Earlier Governments, both those led by my party and those led by the Conservatives, have been on the wrong side of history in this regard, and we must make amends.
Currently, the Crown dependencies and the overseas territories are treated differently by different Departments, namely the Ministry of Justice and the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. I do not think that that is right today. In my view, we should have a Department that looks after the overseas territories and the Crown dependencies, with a Secretary of State. That might sound like a big ask, but we have Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland, although those nations and regions of the United Kingdom effectively govern themselves and perform their own tasks. The Secretaries of State are there to ensure that the wheels are oiled in their negotiations and deliberations with the British Government. I believe that the overseas territories and Crown dependencies deserve nothing less and that is what we should offer them.
It seems wrong to me, in this modern world, that when we are negotiating international treaties there is no representation for the OTs. Britain intervened on Bermuda to stop its laws on the declassification of cannabis. I think it was right for it to do that. It was wrong for Britain to intervene on the basis of international treaties on which Bermuda had had no say in this place. I hope that we can resolve that issue as well.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
I had the great privilege and honour of visiting the British Indian Ocean Territory in 2019 when, at the invitation of the Foreign Office, we had the opportunity to inspect the extraordinary naval facilities that we share with the Americans on those islands. The right of self-determination is a bedrock of all the British overseas territories, yet, in the case of the British Indian Ocean Territory, the right of self-determination is being trashed and completely ignored by this Government.
I rise to express my dissatisfaction with this Government and their handling of the situation. The Chagossians, those beautiful people, were expelled from their islands in 1968 to make way for an American military base, and they were treated appallingly by Mauritius. Some Chagossians came to the United Kingdom and some went to the Seychelles, but others went to Mauritius, and the Mauritians treated them as second-class citizens. Mauritius spent the money it was given to look after them on other things.
The Chagos islands are 2,000 km from Mauritius and have never been part of that country. When we gave Mauritius her independence in 1965, it was made abundantly clear that these islands were to be portioned off and would remain under British control. Moreover, we gave Mauritius more than £3 million of British taxpayers’ money as final settlement for the islands. Think for a moment just how much £3 million was worth in 1965, yet now, more than 50 years on, Mauritius is determined to overturn this agreement and seize the islands from Britain. We have lost rulings on this issue in the International Court of Justice, where Mauritius has taken us for arbitration. The right of self-determination should be at the forefront of our conduct. The negotiations with Mauritius must stop, and the Chagossians, of whom there are about 4,000, must be allowed to return. There must be a referendum of the Chagossians in the British Indian Ocean Territory on whether they want independence or to remain British. I know from all my conversations with the Chagossians that they are proud Brits, and they want to remain part of the British family.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
The total territory of the Chagos islands is 10 times the landmass of Gibraltar, which we also use as a naval and military base. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a thriving community could be created in those islands alongside and supporting the military? The binary option being pushed by the Government is detrimental to all sides.
Daniel Kawczynski
I completely concur with the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments. The Chagossians are descendants of slaves from Africa and Madagascar. They have their own language, their own food, their own music and their own traditions. Their 58 islands are a paradise in the middle of the Indian ocean, and to hand their territory to a foreign country is colonialism on steroids. It would be an absolute disgrace if that were to happen.
Let me say how disappointed I am with other British overseas territories—some of them are with us in the Gallery today—who are eloquent in demanding their rights, including the right of self-determination. Gibraltar, in particular, is always effective in lobbying us. However, a key term of emotional intelligence, which is a subject I have recently been studying, is interdependence. The overseas territories are letting themselves down by not putting enough pressure on the British Government over the rights of the Chagossians. If the Chagossians’ rights are ignored today, it will be the rights of the other overseas territories that are ignored in the future.
We are re-entering the Indian and Pacific oceans. As you will remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, Lee Kuan Yew remonstrated with us in 1971 for leaving our bases in Singapore. We were going through a period of malaise at that time, lacking in confidence. The AUKUS naval agreement we have signed with the Americans and the Australians to re-enter the Indian and Pacific oceans is essential, particularly as we see growing Chinese expansion in the South China sea, stealing hundreds of atolls from the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and other territories, pouring concrete to turn them into giant military installations.
I asked the then Foreign Secretary about this seven years ago, and the response was, “We don’t have an opinion about the disputed uninhabited atolls in the middle of the Indian ocean.” We are turning a blind eye to Chinese expansionism in the South China sea while bending over backwards to accommodate Mauritius’s spurious claim to our islands. This year we are entering CPTPP, the world’s fastest-growing trading bloc, so this area will become increasingly important to the United Kingdom.
I feel so passionately about this issue because it goes to the nub of how our relationship with the British overseas territories will develop and be protected for the future. Please let us combine to challenge the Government on their outrageous, nefarious and immoral conduct over the British Indian Ocean Territory.
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) for securing this debate. I wish to make a brief intervention in my capacity as the Chair of the House of Commons Procedure Committee. It has struck me, in the work we are carrying out, that in this place we often fail to recognise the impact of what we do here on those very important parts of our family, the overseas territories and the Crown dependencies.
I was struck by that most when I visited Gibraltar last year as a delegate of the BIMR—British Islands and Mediterranean region—meeting of the women’s part of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. There are a lot of acronyms. Our delegation was very ably led by your colleague, Mr Deputy Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Dame Eleanor Laing).
As parliamentarians do when we get together, we talked about how often we meet, what the hours are and what the facilities are like. We were shocked to discover that in Gibraltar, the Parliament had not met for about five months. In fact, last year the Parliament in Gibraltar met on only six occasions. It has already met on eight occasions this year. The reason we were given for the meetings of Parliament not happening was that there simply was not capacity in the system to have Parliament meeting while Gibraltar, which is on the frontline of the land border with the European Union, was absorbing the impact of the UK leaving the EU.
I pass no judgement on the decision to leave the European Union; this is not a comment on that. The comment I want to make is that I do not think we, in this place, thought about that. I have a horrible suspicion that, when we were debating that decision, the impact on places like Gibraltar and other overseas territories simply was not discussed. I do not disagree that these issues are talked about at a ministerial level, and I know the Joint Ministerial Council discusses them, but where in our procedures do we have the ability to give a voice to our friends, our family, in the overseas territories and Crown dependencies?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
The right hon. Lady makes an important point. My view, as I have expressed, is that we should have MPs here with voting rights. Other areas do it differently. In the US, for example, there are representatives without voting rights, but with full participation rights. We must find a solution along those lines, otherwise we are all negligent. They are the best people to make their own voices heard.
Karen Bradley
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the best people to listen to on these matters are those from the overseas territories—and, I must say, the Crown dependencies, which are also impacted by what we do.
Our inter-parliamentary relations are incredibly important. The CPA, the British Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, which I chair, and the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which I am honoured to co-chair, are important forums in which we can have dialogue and discuss these matters, but we simply do not allow them to be heard in the legislative process.
The Procedure Committee, which I chair—my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) is a fellow member—has been discussing, as part of an inquiry we have been carrying out for some time on the territorial constitution, how we might work better as the UK Parliament in Westminster to appreciate the impact of what we do on the devolved nations, the Crown dependencies and the overseas territories. As Chair of the Committee, I intend to ensure that we think about real changes to procedure that we could recommend and that this House could adopt.
I sense from what has been said in the Chamber that there is an appetite to build into our processes and procedures the ability for those voices to be heard. As we have heard, the overseas territories matter so much to us in Parliament, for many reasons—I will not repeat them. They matter to our constituents and to the whole of the United Kingdom, and we must make sure that when we make decisions in this place, they do not have unintended consequences that adversely affect our friends, because that would be tragic.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Of course, the Government’s position is that the individual overseas territory should enjoy self-determination. I spoke to a number of Gibraltarians who were very keen on the idea of integration, and I am sure that that would be the case in a number of other overseas territories, too. PACAC will consider that in the context of its inquiry.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
Was it not surprising that everyone we spoke to in Gibraltar and a number of people I have been contacted by from other overseas territories said, “I support it, but I’m sure someone else will be against it, and I don’t want to make waves.” There might well be overwhelming support, but it has never been properly tested by the populations of those areas.
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. I do not think I met a single Gibraltarian who was averse to the idea of integration with the United Kingdom. This is something that we need to consider carefully.
It is clearly the case that many Gibraltarians now—particularly younger ones—regard a trip to the United Kingdom essentially as a bus trip; they use the easyJet and British Airways services quite routinely. They regard themselves already as de facto integrated with the United Kingdom, so the constitutional status of the overseas territories in that regard must be considered. To repeat, this will have to be carefully considered in the PACAC inquiry.
To conclude, the British overseas territories are important elements of the global British family and, as is clear from this debate, are highly valued by Members on both sides of the House. The Government and the House should be careful to ensure that their interests are reflected and protected, and those issues will be carefully considered by PACAC in the course of its inquiry.
North and East Syria: Autonomous Administration
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(1 year, 1 month ago)
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Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
Let me begin by drawing the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and declaring that I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for Kurdistan in Turkey and Syria.
Last month I had the privilege of travelling to Kurdistan in Iraq and the region known as the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria for the third time. When I visited in 2017, I was told that that I was the first British Member of Parliament to travel to Syria since the outbreak of the civil war. I followed that up with another trip in 2019, with the hon. Members for Gravesham (Adam Holloway) and for Reigate (Crispin Blunt), and last month I was accompanied by the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), whom I thank for being present today.
I first undertook these visits to raise awareness of the plight of the Kurdish people in the region and their struggle against ISIS, but what I have seen and experienced there has been greater than the struggle of the Kurds in the north-eastern corner of Syria. It is, in my view, a struggle for democracy, for a multi-religious and multi-ethnic, feminist-based organisation of society: a struggle not only against ISIS, but at times, very realistically, a struggle against Damascus, and against pressures from both Baghdad and Ankara that are frankly unhelpful.
Our Kurdish allies in the region have answered the call to defeat ISIS and are still keeping us safe from them. During my visit to the Syrian region, we were told that more than 20,000 foreign fighters and their families from more than 50 countries were currently in detention, including ISIS fighters from Britain, a number of whom I have met. The authorities have requested the establishment of an international criminal tribunal to bring due process and justice to the region, and to a conflict that seems to be increasingly forgotten. When I asked the north-eastern Syrian authorities whether they thought they had enough evidence to convict Shamima Begum there, in their area, they assured me that they did, and could use it if a tribunal were set up. However, it cannot be left to the authorities of a war-torn country which has had the world’s worst extremists exported to it to be the sole administrators of justice. They themselves say they cannot do it alone, and that they need our help. May I therefore ask the Minister what support the Government can provide to help the autonomous region to administer justice for the tens of thousands of foreign fighters, and—more important, of course—the victims of those fighters?
This cannot wait. Last year ISIS launched an attack on the prison where the fighters are being held in an attempt to break them out. I have visited the prisons and camps, and the prisoners are not pleasant people at all. It was explained to me that Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq, fell within weeks with just 1,000 ISIS fighters, and we now have tens of thousands held in camps. All it would need is an earthquake in that region, and we can imagine the disaster that could unfold. I was warned that “what comes after ISIS could be even worse”. We must mobilise the international community to establish a criminal tribunal and adopt a co-ordinated approach in delivering justice—delivering justice where the crimes were committed and not necessarily here, as we did in Rwanda and in Sierra Leone.
I believe that a British fighter who is convicted in Syria should serve his or her sentence in a British prison or another prison of appointment, and, furthermore, that if a fighter from a former Soviet republic in central Asia such as Turkmenistan—I am told there are quite a number of them—is found guilty of a crime, we must find a way to share the burden in the western community. That is what we have done in the case of previous international tribunals, and although the scale of this is larger, I would say that the need is greater, because the threat is to us as well as to people in the region. This is necessary not only for the sake of justice, but for our own safety. Although currently stable, the situation could deteriorate, and the consequences of that will be catastrophic.
Let me now say something about the destabilising effect in the region. I was told in every meeting, by every official, that the largest stabilising force in the region is Turkey. The authorities allege that the constant barrage of attacks being made against civilian and political leaders in the autonomous region is having profound effects on the running of the authority. We were told of an attack that had happened when we were there. In the midst of everyone’s efforts to focus on earthquake recovery, attacks were still ongoing. Turkey is now threatening to expand its land invasion into northern Syria, specifically targeting cities such as Kobane, which I visited on my first trip. It was rebuilt after ISIS’s absolute devastation. The Kurds are claiming that the Turkish Government used Islamists and dangerous terrorists to secure much of its occupied lands in Syria. This has ended up harbouring the very terrorists whom we have a mandate to defeat under UN resolutions.
Can we have a statement from the Foreign Office condemning the use of drones in north-east Syria against the autonomous region and our allies, who are fighting with our service personnel against the ongoing ISIS threat? Further, on the threat of a wider invasion, what consequences would there be for a NATO ally that proceeded with an invasion against our Kurdish allies, with whom our service personnel are embedded?
It saddens me to highlight Turkey, which is the great country of Atatürk and Labour’s sister parties, the CHP and the HDP. The country has a secular tradition, but Turkish aggression and intimidation are now expanding beyond its borders. We all know of the Turkish Government’s treatment of Sweden and Finland on their entry to NATO, and they are now using similar tactics to target British MPs and British Kurds who speak out.
Last year, a colleague and I were targeted by a smear from the Turkish embassy, which wrote to Mr Speaker about our visiting hunger strikers. It claimed in The Sun that we were supporting terrorism by visiting a protester who was calling out the maltreatment of opposition leaders in Turkey. I remind the House that Turkey has locked up the most politicians, journalists and judges of any country—any country—in the world.
In September 2022, a life-long Labour activist who had been granted security clearance for many conferences was denied access to the Labour conference by the security agencies, I am told at the behest of Turkey, because of her work in north-east Syria, a region that we do not define as run by terrorists. We make a distinction; Turkey does not.
A few weeks ago, pressure was put on Members of this House and Members of the other place to withdraw from a Trades Union Congress-supported event on freedom for Öcalan, the incarcerated leader of many Kurds. His incarceration and treatment has been condemned by the Council of Europe.
This week it was confirmed to me by senior sources that the Turkish embassy is keeping a dossier on me and other Members of Parliament who believe in an open, multi-ethnic, democratic Turkey and who are against the current regime. The embassy is passing on these bits of information to party management and the press agencies when it thinks it can undermine or silence us.
If China, or even an ally such as Saudi Arabia, tried to undermine political parties and Members of this House, it would be outrageous and the Government would act. Turkey is rightly a proud NATO ally that I want to see lifted from the current veil of Islamic nationalism that is taking root, so will the Minister meet me to discuss these concerns and to see what we can do to ensure that no foreign Government, even an ally, can bully MPs, parties or the Kurdish diaspora?
Finally, I will turn to refugees, the camps for internally displaced people and nation building. We visited and heard from civil society. There are three camps of close to 50,000 people, and a huge proportion of them are children and young people. These camps do not have adequate toilets, and they have only limited clean water and medical facilities. They have problems with lice and scabies outbreaks. The authorities are doing the best they can, but they are largely being ignored by the international community. They have no assistance from the United Nations or other Governments. Damascus is preventing UN agencies from fully supporting these camps, and it will not allow them to support our allies. Aid is urgently needed. Will the Minister therefore explore the use of our own aid, and our connections with aid agencies and the UN, to seek direct support for these camps? The aid currently given to Damascus does not get to the region, where it is desperately needed.
Those in the majority Kurdish areas could not be schooled in their mother tongue or freely practise their traditions while under the control of Assad’s regime. After the Arab spring, their fledgling democracy emerged, before it came under the existential threat of ISIS, which stood against everything they and we believed in. ISIS subjugated women and brutally oppressed its own people in an authoritarian death cult. Yet, with international support, these people have re-emerged and they are trying to rebuild a multi-ethnic, multi-religious society. We owe them the support to help build that future, even if imperfect. They do not seek separation from Syria; they want autonomy and democracy within it. They need not only our help in containing the continuing threat of ISIS, but protection from neighbouring Governments and their own Government to prevent their being destroyed. Support for the autonomous region in north and east Syria is not only in our geostrategic interest, but is the morally right thing to do.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Anne-Marie Trevelyan)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) for securing this debate. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) is currently on ministerial duties abroad and sends his apologies, but it is my pleasure to be able to respond on the Government’s behalf to the issues raised by the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown and my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord). I am grateful for their contributions and will try my best to respond, but as this is not my policy area, I commit to ensuring that all questions are responded to in writing should I fail to respond sufficiently.
I offer my deepest condolences to all those affected by the devastating earthquake that struck northern Syria and Turkey three weeks ago. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) for leading an important debate in Westminster Hall on 23 February about the earthquake, and to the Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), who set out in detail in his statement yesterday the work that we and many countries are doing to help in that incredibly difficult crisis.
The impact of the earthquake in the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria itself was mercifully limited, but the region is nevertheless of continuing vital concern to UK interests in Syria and the wider region. It is the principal remaining battleground for the Global Coalition against Daesh, of which the UK is an integral part, against the extremist threat that lingers in Syria and Iraq. Daesh has been defeated territorially, and for that we pay tribute to the courage and sacrifices made by coalition forces, and our partners the Syrian Democratic Forces, in dealing Daesh such a terrible blow. Even without territory, Daesh’s ability to direct, enable and inspire attacks continues to represent the most significant global terrorist threat, including to the UK, our people and our interests overseas. Daesh’s major assault on a prison in Hasakah in January 2022 and other recent attacks underlined the need for that continued close co-operation between coalition forces and the Syrian Democratic Forces.
The situation on the ground in northern Syria remains complex and difficult, and the economic and humanitarian situation in north-eastern Syria is deteriorating, threatening to perpetuate the conditions under which groups such as Daesh thrive. The threat emanating from camps and detention centres is particularly acute, and I thank hon. Members for highlighting specific examples. We are cognisant of the fact that securing Daesh’s complete defeat will not be quick or easy, but our commitment to the coalition’s mission is resolute. The UK is a leading member of the Global Coalition against Daesh and, with our regional allies, we are committed to ensuring they cannot resurge in this area.
The coalition has helped to liberate more than 110,000 sq km of Syria and Iraq, along with approximately 8 million civilians. The UK is pleased to host the coalition’s communication cell, which plays an important role in countering Daesh’s extremist messages and hateful propaganda, convening the resources and expertise of other international partners as well as our own. We remain committed to advocating for the interests of the local population, including by respecting the rights of all minorities in Syria, just as we remain committed to supporting the work of the Global Coalition against Daesh, in which Kurdish communities and representatives play an important part.
With conflict, stability and security funding, we are helping to build the resilience of local communities to prevent the Daesh threat from emanating from north-east Syria, as well as helping communities to recover from the brutality of life under Daesh. We continue to offer significant humanitarian and early recovery assistance to alleviate the suffering and build the resilience of conflict-affected populations, with a strong focus on the agency of women and girls.
UK aid in north-east Syria is focused on reaching those who are most in need, providing vital life-saving assistance, and supporting conflict-affected communities to build resilience and re-establish their livelihoods. Many of those in need have been forcibly displaced, and most displaced families are led by women. May I reassure the House that our early recovery support is tailored to strengthen those breadwinners’ skills and access to jobs, while tackling the sexual and economic violence that undermines the resilience of women and their families and communities?
The UK is playing a leading role with international partners to improve conditions in camps such as al-Hawl and al-Roj, where the needs and threats are most acute. As hon. Members have highlighted, there are some difficult situations there, so improving conditions is critical.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
I note that the brief that the Minister is reading—that is fair enough—says that we are giving the people there support. When her colleague writes to me, could he outline in particular what support is going to which camps? On the ground, we were told that there is no support for internally displaced people, and that there is still only limited support for some extremist fighter families. It would be wrong, would it not, for more support to go to people allied to Daesh than to victims of Daesh? It would be good if that could be clarified.
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
I have no doubt that that has been noted and we will make sure that a response is forthcoming.
I can give some information that I have to hand. In the first half of financial year 2022-23, we provided more than 100,000 medical consultations, provided mental health support to more than 4,000 people, provided 4,000 more people with sexual and gender-based violence services, and provided more than 3,000 people with sexual and reproductive health services.
Ultimately, it will be extremely difficult to tackle the challenges in north-east Syria sustainably without a political solution. That is why the UK remains committed to the Syrian political process established by UN Security Council resolution 2254. We firmly believe that that resolution offers a clear path out of the conflict, protecting the rights of all Syrians, in which civil society, women and minorities must play a role. We will continue to support UN special envoy Geir Pedersen in his efforts to speed things up. Like many of our international partners, we are frustrated by the slow rate of progress. The responsibility for that lies squarely at the feet of the Assad regime, who we urge to engage seriously with the UN-led process. We believe that that is the only path to lasting and inclusive peace.
Draft Inter-American Investment Corporation (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2022
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Fabian Hamilton
Obviously I will acknowledge and listen to your guidance, Mr Gray.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
I am interested in the idea of giving specific immunities to staff members of the institution and how that will affect our relationship with China in particular, given that in offering the organisation immunities, one is also offering a shareholder of the bank some level of access. Is there a concern about that?
Fabian Hamilton
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and I believe that that is a legitimate question. I know that we are discussing immunities and privileges for UK staff, but do we know whether other countries that are part of the bank and part of IDB Invest also enjoy those immunities? I shall leave it there, Mr Gray.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Leo Docherty)
The Government are aware of reports that Turkish forces have used white phosphorus in northern Iraq. However, we have no direct evidence to support those claims. Of course, we take all allegations of this nature seriously, and we are committed to upholding the chemical weapons convention.
Leo Docherty
The hon. Lady mentions the PKK. We should be very clear that we regard the PKK to be a terrorist organisation—that is why we have proscribed it—and that we believe Turkey has a legitimate right to defend itself against this form of terrorism.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
Sezgin Tarikulu—the Turkish MP to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) has referred—said: “I watched the footage of the alleged chemical weapons. Chemical weapons are crimes against humanity. Tomorrow I will submit a PQ on the accuracy of these allegations.” For saying that, and that alone, he has been indicted for terrorism and supporting PKK rhetoric, despite the fact that a Turkish Minister has confirmed that Turkey does use gas. Sezgin is a member of the CHP, the founding party of Turkey; he is not of the Kurdish party. Does the Minister not recognise that the overreach of the PKK terrorist definition is shutting down democracy in Turkey and hurting our allies in Syria, Turkey and Iraq?
Leo Docherty
As I have said, we have no direct evidence to support the allegations to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but we are of course committed to upholding the chemical weapons convention. I myself met the director general of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons last month, and we will keep these issues under review.
Jagtar Singh Johal
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(1 year, 7 months ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker
I cannot prevent Members from expressing their views. I am concerned that the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) is not here. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is customary to inform an hon. Member if they wish to raise something concerning them. It is open to the right hon. Member to raise the matter on another occasion, but I suggest that he informs the hon. Member that he is going to do so, as that would provide an opportunity for a response. I think that we will leave it at that.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I will take the hon. Gentleman’s point of order after the business statement from the Leader of the House.
NATO Accession: Sweden and Finland
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(1 year, 9 months ago)
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Vicky Ford
I believe, and this Government believe, that our country’s defence is stronger when we are united as one nation. I also believe that core to our defence is our nuclear deterrent.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
I agree with the statement that the Minister has made. It is vital that Ukraine wins this war, both militarily and domestically, and that the alliance is strengthened, and I am pleased to see Finland and Sweden joining. I am, however, concerned about reports of the Kurds being used as a bargaining chip in the negotiations. We have abandoned the Kurds far too many times in history. Can the Minister offer reassurances that we will continue to support the YPG and the YPJ in north-east Syria, where they have defeated ISIS, that we will not buckle under the demands to treat them as a terrorist organisation—they are its opposite, an anti-terrorist organisation—and that we will continue to push the Turkish Government, as a NATO member, to pursue democratic reforms rather than democratic persecution?
Vicky Ford
We welcome the agreements made at the Madrid summit last week. These brought together all members, by consensus, to agree to Norway and Sweden joining. That involves discussions with every single one of NATO’s members.
Sanctions
Lloyd Russell-Moyle Excerpts(2 years, 2 months ago)
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Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
It does sometimes seem that the Government play hot and cold with Russia. They accept donations from Alexander Temerko and others, and then do not provide the fullest sanctions possible. This is not a new issue, is it? This is a long-running dispute. We know that Russia has been the aggressor here for a long time. Is there not a danger that this is a bit too late and too little, and is actually a signal to the Kremlin that it can keep getting away with its bully-boy tactics?
Mr Lammy
My hon. Friend has put it very well indeed. We must not fall into the trap of the past in taking actions that are too limited and too late, so Labour will continue to make the case for a fuller and more comprehensive package of sanctions now. President Biden is expected to announce, as soon as today, measures which will go further than those outlined by the Prime Minister. There are also reports that the EU is close to agreeing a package of measures including the targeting of more than 300 Russian Government officials and new restrictions on trading in Russian state bonds. Can the Minister reassure us that we will move in lockstep with our international allies?
Let me now turn to the actual text of the legislation. Although the Opposition of course welcome the spirit of what the legislation is seeking to achieve, we have some major concerns, and some suggestions as to how the Government could go further.
Concerns have been expressed to us that, given how the legislation is currently drafted, oligarchs who are close to Putin will find it too easy to avoid the impact of the measures. Although they may not hold a formal role in a sanctioned bank or company, they may exert significant control behind the scenes. Consequently, some of the most influential and notorious oligarchs—oligarchs who are close to Vladimir Putin, and have purposely structured their enterprises to avoid the appearance of majority ownership and control—would go untouched.
We believe that that is a crucial mistake. We know that Putin could not care less about sanctions laid against his country or the Russian people; that is one of the reasons why sanctions failed after the invasion of Crimea. The only sanctions that he really cares about are those against the richest people closest to him, and that must be the Government’s target. It would be a grave error to provide any loophole that would allow these people to escape sanction.
The Government could easily close that loophole by including a new category of person in the legislation which would encompass any oligarch close to Putin who obtains a benefit from, and supports, the Government of Russia. These designations should be made without fear or favour, and should include individuals with UK interests or even UK passports. In the same way, some of the oligarchs closest to Putin could currently slip through the net cast by this legislation, and so can Russian Government officials who have supported Putin’s regime and its goals. As it stands, paragraph 4 of the legislation would allow sanctions to be laid against individuals on the board of companies with certain links to the Russian Government but it would not enable sanctions to be laid against officials who enable the Russian Government to pursue their policy of aggression in Ukraine. The EU appears to be moving quickly on this, and this Government must keep pace.
It is not just Russian officials who could escape the pain of these sanctions, but also members of the Russian legislature. Paragraph 7 of the legislation defines what is meant by the “Government of Russia”, but it does not include members of Russia’s legislative branch, the Federal Assembly. This seems to be a remarkable oversight, and I would be glad to hear from the Minister what the rationale was for not including members of the Russian legislature in the scope of the instrument. We also have to ask what action the Government are taking to clamp down on assets owned by family members of those subject to sanctions. For example, will the Government also designate businesses that are owned by family members but controlled by a designated person?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
The Government have yet to enact the registration of overseas entities Bill, which would require property owners and other business owners to show who the real beneficial owners of those overseas entities were. Is that not a huge weakness in our armoury?
Mr Lammy
My hon. Friend is right. Why do we have a system that is so opaque? What is the delay? I have raised this issue at the Dispatch Box at least three times, and I am happy to raise it on a fourth occasion, as my predecessor has done.
At present, this legislation provides for asset freezes of designated persons, but there is space for wider sectoral measures, such as those we have applied to other countries in the past. Will the Government bring forward other legislation to address this?
As Opposition Members have indicated, sanctions on their own are nothing unless they are rigorously enforced by the responsible agencies in the UK. Since the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation was given powers in 2017, it has imposed penalties on only five occasions. If the Government have designed the most comprehensive sanctions package in our history, as the Minister assures us, it must be backed up by the most comprehensive resources it has ever been given. Will the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation get those resources? What steps will the Minister take to ensure that enforcement agencies are able to function and take action under these new measures?
As my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) has already asked, is this not the moment to publish the Russia report? Lay it before the House! Put it in the Library so that we can see its contents, and so that we can act, move forward and worry those in the Kremlin. We believe that we must go further now. Only five banks and three individuals are facing sanctions as a result of the UK Government’s actions today. This is not a big enough punishment for the blatant breach of international law that has already been made. Let us not be too slow to act and fall behind our international partners.
We should be introducing the full set of sanctions that is available to us now. Russia should be excluded from financial mechanisms such as SWIFT—the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunications. We should ban trading in Russian sovereign debt. Donetsk and Luhansk should be subject to comprehensive trade embargoes. Putin’s campaign of misinformation must be tackled by preventing Russia Today from broadcasting its propaganda around the world. We should be working to support our allies in the EU to cancel Nord Stream 2. The Foreign Secretary says that we are in lockstep with our allies, but the reality is that our allies have gone further in sanctioning individuals in Putin’s regime. Why have we not done the same?
This is not simply a matter of individuals, of course; it is about fixing a broken system. Ending our openness to fraud and money laundering, our inadequate regulation of political donations, our lax mechanisms of corporate governance and our weakness to foreign interference requires a barrage of new measures, long called for but as yet undelivered, to shut down the shell companies that obscure the origins of wealth and hide corruption, to lift the veil on who owns property and land in the UK through a transparent register, as mentioned time and again, and to bring forward an economic crime Bill that will target the corrupt elites who store their wealth under our noses.
Sadly, due to Putin’s expansionism, targeting Russia may not be enough. The regime in Belarus is supporting Putin’s aggression, playing host to Russian forces and potentially being set up as a springboard for a wider assault on Ukraine. Are the Government considering expanding the powers they have to designate people in Belarus should a wider invasion take place?
This is not the time for half measures. Putin has made his move, and the wider threat that Ukraine faces is immediate. The consequences for Europe and the west are stark. The effects of this moment will depend as much on our response to this aggression as on the aggression itself. Autocrats around the world are watching to see whether we meet the test of our strength and resolve. The Minister will have seen the strength across the House today. We need to go harder, deeper and broader, and we need to do so now. We stand ready to work with the Government to achieve this.
Tom Tugendhat
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend on that. He is completely right, as usual, in highlighting that the protection of whistleblowers is an essential part of the exposure to justice of those who have committed crimes. We need to think again about crime. We need to look again at the institutions, law enforcement bodies and agencies that are charged with protecting us and think really hard about their budgets. They are not simply ways of stopping the taxman from getting his hands on a little bit more loot; they are fundamental to our national security and to the protection of our people. We need to think of them as agents of the state in the same way as we think of the armed forces or the intelligence services. We need to think of them on the frontline of the protection of the people we are lucky to represent. Frankly, we need to put the money where so often our mouths have been when we have passed Acts in this House that have not had the resources to make them not just law but actionable law.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
I am going to bang on about the draft Registration of Overseas Entities Bill. I served on the prelegislative scrutiny Committee on the Bill with several colleagues from different parties. We agreed a set of amendments and the Government accepted them, but they failed to bring through the Bill and the powers for Companies House and the Land Registry. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is about not just money but the fact that the Government have been sitting on their hands in respect of powers for the relevant organisations?
Elections Bill
Lloyd Russell-Moyle ExcerptsMonday 17th January 2022
(2 years, 3 months ago)
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Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
I appreciate the amendments that clarify what travel documents are permitted. The Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, on which I sit, has passed a report, and when I questioned the hon. Lady’s predecessor, it was clear that the list of documents could have been expanded to all photo ID concessionary cards, including the young person’s travel card, which requires a photo in all documentation. However, the Government chose to ignore young person passes and only include the older person passes in the main. May I ask why the Minister has done that? Her predecessor did say that she would think again about it. Why have they not done so on this issue?
Kemi Badenoch
I did look into this issue, and the reason why we have not accepted it is that the process for getting travel concessionary passes for older voters is more rigorous and robust than that for young people. The new robust checks that we would have at the threshold for voter ID are met by the older voters’ concessionary passes but not by the young voters’ passes. That is why this is the case.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
Rather than outlining a list, why does the Minister not take the approach of outlining the thresholds that her Department think are required for an ID to be valid? The travel companies might then wish to meet that threshold. In that way, everyone will know what the Minister is talking about, rather than her just producing a random list and then dismissing the other passes.
Kemi Badenoch
That is a good question. It is something that we discussed in Committee and we decided that the best way to do that would be through secondary legislation. We did debate what the thresholds were, but this is something that can be resolved when further detail comes out in secondary legislation. I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman’s comments at that stage.
As I was saying, amendments 82, 84 and 87 will help ensure clarity to both electors and polling station staff as to which forms of identification will be accepted. In line with other registration decisions, amendment 74 introduces an appeal process against the refusal of an application for a voter card or absent vote.
Finally, on this group of Government amendments, amendments 49 to 50, 76 to 79, 89, 90, 92, 93, 96, 105 and 108 seek to provide the chief electoral officer of Northern Ireland with the ability to provide confidential lists of dates of birth to polling stations at all elections in Northern Ireland, which will facilitate the implementation of existing provisions.
Alex Norris
The hon. Gentleman reads my mind, because I was about to turn to that issue. I was going to say that the Government will now instead rely on a voter card. First, putting hurdles in the way will take people out and reduce turnout. That alone is a bad thing, but, again, the effect will not be evenly distributed; it will be harder for those in rural communities, who have further to travel, to make good. Indeed, what about those who live with a disability and all the extra burdens in their lives—why on earth would we give them another one, not least when we are not really solving a problem?
The Association of Electoral Administrators has raised serious concerns about the huge burden on overstretched local authorities, which will be supposed to deal with photo ID cards alongside the burden of registering significant numbers of new or overseas electors—I will reference them shortly—ordinary registrations and renewed postal voters. We know that that that burden peaks at the same time, approximately six weeks before an election, because, funnily enough, people work in those cycles.
Governments ought to bring people together, and the Government have succeeded with these provisions, as they have united civil society. They have united academia and cross-party Select Committees against them. Why will the Government not listen? If they want that secure, fair, modern, inclusive and transparent Bill, they should accept the amendments. Should they not do so, we will know what they really want from the Bill.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
My hon. Friend is making excellent progress. One point made by Government Members is that people could apply for ID. Even where non-photographic ID was used in the trials and given to everyone, about 1% of people were turned away just because they had forgotten to take it from their house to the polling station. Now in a number of our seats 1% is a margin of error that would have changed the course of an election, and in tight years it could change the course of who is in government. Does he think it is right that the measures could change the course of who governs this country?
Alex Norris
I want the course of elections to be changed by people—by those eligible to vote. Although some of the seats in this place come down to very fine margins, across virtually every council area there are hyper-marginal seats, and indeed hyper-marginal councils, that will swing on this measure. As I have said, the Bill seeks to tackle something that has yet to be proved to be a problem.
Mr Holden
Wait a second—the hon. Member can intervene again if he wishes. I know that he and the Scottish National party do not want to raise the age of marriage to 18; the Scottish Executive have not made it clear so far, but I think they should. Article 1 in part 1 of the UN convention on the rights of the child says that a child is a child until 18 years of age, so I do not understand why the SNP is still backing child marriage.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
Does the hon. Member not recognise that the same treaty says that under-18s should have a say in the future of their life and have democratic participation in the countries they live in?
Mr Holden
Indeed.
With respect to the Liberal Democrats’ new clause 13, the single transferable vote system is not a proportional vote system, as the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) knows; it is a preferential vote system, so he is arguing in this Chamber for something different from his new clause. That is a particularly important point, because it relates to safe seats.
Let me give an example. Just under 31% of people voted Conservative in 1997, and 43% voted Conservative in 2019. If we look at how those seats have changed between the 1992 Parliament and this Parliament, we can see that there are far fewer safe seats than under either a proportional system or a preferential system. There have been no studies to show that real preferential systems would make seats less safe. In fact, they could even reinforce them and make them even safer. Much more thought is needed before we engage in anything that the right hon. Member is proposing.
I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans) will speak in support of his new clause 17. I support the new clause, which I think is a very sensible move. I hope that it can be looked at, either now or at a later stage. My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson) spoke better than I can about new clause 5, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) about new clause 11 and new schedule 11.
I want to speak briefly to new clause 15, which stands in my name. It is a probing amendment, but I really want those on the Government Front Bench to think about ensuring that people can be registered only in one area. It is unacceptable that if someone is wealthy enough to own multiple properties, they can be registered in different places and can potentially vote in multiple local elections. I think that they should have to choose where to vote in local elections and where their primary residence is. That would also have huge benefits for the tax system, because we would know where someone’s primary residence was and they could not flip-flop around.
I do not think that owning or renting more property should mean having multiple votes. It is just not defensible that people should be able to vote in more than one place in the same year, at the same time, in the same elections. Why should some people be able to vote more than others? It just does not sit right with me that I could potentially vote hundreds of times if I had hundreds of properties across the country.
New clause 15 is a probing amendment, because we need to look at the issue of double voting. It is not acceptable that people should be able to do it, so I really think we need to look at ways of properly clamping down on it. I am glad to have had the support of so many Conservative colleagues in tabling the new clause. I will not press it today, but I hope that in her comments the Minister will reflect on my suggestions.