Kurdish Genocide
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt)
I do not know about other hon. Members or those who are watching this debate, wherever they are around the world, but my goodness, I have found this a tough debate to listen to. As the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) said, the quality of this debate has been exceptional, as has the knowledge, compassion and honesty with which colleagues have spoken. I am pleased to be able to respond on behalf of the Government.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) for securing the debate and the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to hold it. Over time, my hon. Friend will have to get used to being congratulated on a regular basis. I found his narrative powerful and compelling, but those of us who have heard him speak previously know there is nothing unusual in that. He has already made a name for himself in the House, and he has further cemented that today. He spoke exceptionally well and we are impressed.
The pain with which my hon. Friend described his background and the circumstances of being a refugee was graphically illustrated in a way that none of us with a more forensic sense about these things could possibly repeat or be able to share. When we occasionally debate who comes across our borders, it should constantly bring a measure of pride to this country to remember the reputation we have had for providing sanctuary to people who have fled conflict and pain that is unimaginable to most of our constituents. My hon. Friend put that point extremely well.
I will mention the contributions of most of those who have spoken in the debate and seek to weave in their remarks. I especially mention the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) who were in the House—as was I—at the times of which we speak. They took part in these events in a way that I did not, and spoke well and effectively about the things going on that, alas, we knew far too little about. Both of them spoke very graphically, and although the details of what happened provided by the right hon. Lady were painful to hear, occasionally such things need to be said to remind us that behind all the figures and the 182,000, there are individual circumstances to be described.
A few years ago I went with colleagues to Rwanda and the genocide memorial at Murambi where some 60,000 people were corralled and killed over a few days. Seeing the places where mass attacks have taken place, and mass graves such as those mentioned by the right hon. Lady, leaves an indelible impression and we cannot help but be changed by what we hear. I commend colleagues for the way they have spoken, and I hope many people get the opportunity to read the debate and consider carefully what we have said.
As many Members have said, the UK’s ties with Iraqi Kurds are significant. Historically, those ties were cemented in 1991 with the United Kingdom’s strong support, led by the then Prime Minister John Major, for protecting the Kurdish people by enforcing no-fly zones. Since then, successive UK Governments have highlighted the need to support the rights of the Kurdish people, as well as those of other minorities in Iraq. I was in that region a couple of years ago and people were looking forward to John Major coming for a commemoration to mark 20 years since the establishment of the no-fly zone and the relief of Kuwait. There was no doubt about the esteem in which Sir John was held, which as a friend it was a pleasure to see. Friends in the other place will also know full well how Sir John is regarded, and others from that time also deserve great credit for the way in which they spoke out on behalf of those who were being persecuted.
In an interesting speech, the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) confronted honestly the problems that are occasionally thrown up by the twin difficulties of foreign policy and hindsight. He is right to say that sometimes we do not know everything and make decisions as best we can at the time. He asked whether we should have done more and earlier, but I remember the 1991 Gulf war and the arguments at the time. Should forces have pressed on to Baghdad? It is easily forgotten that there was no mandate for that; there was a coalition to free Kuwait, but had a decision been taken to press on to Baghdad and remove Saddam Hussein—it became clear subsequently that that might have been the thing to do—there would have been resistance to what would have seemed an intervention too far. Interventions are so much easier in hindsight than they are at the time. The hon. Gentleman and I know that full well in relation to other issues we are dealing with at the moment.
The hon. Member for Islington North mentioned arms fairs in Baghdad and rebuffs from Ministers at the time. Were my colleagues right at that time? I can say from the Dispatch Box that they probably were not right, but what might they have done with the wisdom of hindsight and the knowledge that we have now? That is the spirit in which I confront the difficulties of hindsight and foreign policy.
As a number of hon. Members have made clear, the Iraqi regime under Saddam Hussein systematically persecuted and oppressed ethnic and religious groups. No group suffered more than Iraq’s Kurds. Saddam Hussein’s regime carried out a number of atrocities against the Kurds over a quarter of a century. As many as 100,000 Kurds were killed in the Anfal attacks, and many more were displaced. This year, we will remember the attack on Halabja in 1988 as we reach its 25th anniversary in March. Iraqi planes bombarded the town with chemical weapons, causing the deaths of 3,500 to 5,000 people, as colleagues have described in the debate.
I shall say more about the appalling crimes committed against Iraq’s Kurds and the need to ensure that no people suffer a similar fate, but, like other colleagues, I would first like to say a few words about the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq and our relationship with them. In remembering the past, it is important to recognise and put on record what has happened since those appalling crimes.
I was able to see the fruits of our relationship first hand during my recent visit to Irbil—the second time I have been able to visit the region. My friend the hon. Member for Wrexham is absolutely right that he should get there as soon as he can. It is a very good place to visit. I am sure his remarks on visiting were heard in all the right quarters. He can look forward to going and seeing the new consulate—the site for it has been identified and it is due to be built. He will be very welcome there. He just needs to let me know and we will see what can be done—[Interruption.] I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), who piped up at that moment, for her indefatigable work on building democracy in many different places, but not least in that region. Efforts are now being made on the building blocks of democracy and the institutions that must be built—perhaps in recognition of so much that has gone wrong. As she said, and as she knows from her work for the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, an election is not democracy per se. We must ensure that there is another election and that elections are free and fair, and that institutions support elections and that power changes. Sooner or later, people will realise that power is invested not only in individuals but in institutions. In some of the places where we are working collectively, there is a way to go, but the efforts being made in the Kurdistan region of Iraq make it clear that the work is being done on fertile ground. I therefore pay tribute to her and her hon. Friends.
During my recent visit, I had the pleasure of meeting both President Barzani and Deputy Prime Minister Imad Ahmad. I toured the British-designed airport with the Minister for the Interior, Karim Sinjari, and met several other Cabinet Ministers. With Minister of Planning Dr Ali Sindi, I attended the signing of a contract to expand a major national school of government from London to an international capacity building programme with the KRG.
In October, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary announced that our consulate-general in Irbil should be maintained on a permanent footing. The KRG have generously donated land where a new UK consulate-general will be built. The Head of the Department of Foreign Relations, Falah Bakir, presented me with a letter confirming the donation during my visit.
My visit was rounded off with a tour of the 7,000-year-old citadel, Irbil’s premier tourist location, which claims to be the longest continuously occupied place in the world. I was pleased to note the involvement of British archaeologists in the ongoing programme to restore the citadel—that is another example of the UK’s long-standing ties with the Kurdistan region. Any colleagues looking for tips on being re-elected should simply go around Irbil with the governor. We paid a visit to the market, where the response to him was terrific. I wanted a piece of it to take back to Biggleswade to help me in my next election campaign. It was a genuine and spontaneous outburst of affection for the gentleman as we toured the market, and I thought, “This chap knows what he’s doing.”
Visits are not all one way. Members of the KRG frequently visit the United Kingdom. Earlier this month, President Barzani made his first official visit to Belfast, and had discussions with, among others, Northern Ireland’s First and Deputy First Ministers, as well as the Speaker of the Assembly.
Even as we rightly remember those who lost their lives 25 years ago, we should also think about how far the KRG has come. Those returning to Irbil years later see real changes, and are struck by its relative security and burgeoning economy. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), who made yet another impressive contribution, reflected on how those fleeing persecution as Christians from other parts of Iraq were able to find a home in Irbil and in the Kurdish region. It is a proper distinction to make. As we reflect on Christian flight across the middle east—and the persecution of any religious minority other than the majority in the locality at the time—we realise how important it is that people’s rights are recognised and protected, and that others are prepared to acknowledge them. Tragically, across the region this evening, there are many families camped out in the homes of others, seeking refuge from the conflicts that rage about them. It is not inappropriate to recognise the generosity of the KRG and the Kurdish region in this regard.
Among EU countries, the UK has the largest number of companies registered and operating within the Kurdistan region, while 61 British delegates, representing 39 companies, participated in the Irbil trade fair in October last year. My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) made particular reference to the importance of that trade relationship, and he was right to do so as it provides opportunities for many.
Although the oil and gas sector understandably accounts for significant UK investment in the Kurdish region, it is not the only sector where our companies are actively engaged. We know that more can be done, which is why we are strengthening our commercial team in Irbil to help British companies do business in the region.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I gently remind the Minister that the subject of the debate is genocide? I know that he wants to talk about other areas, but we do want to try to keep within the scope of the debate.
Alistair Burt
I will happily do so. I thought that it might be helpful to set the region in context before turning to some of the tougher parts that were described. If I may attempt to relate my remarks to Iraq in general, not forgetting the Kurdish region, we should also take a moment to remember, as the 10th anniversary of the start of the Iraq war approaches, those who died during the war, including 178 British service personnel, and of course many Iraqis and other nationals. That sacrifice has contributed to the relative peace of the region now and our ability to look back and evaluate the circumstances of the time.
The anniversary is also a time to reflect on Iraq’s present, and its future. During my recent visit, I saw both the challenges and the opportunities that Iraq faces. Fundamental political issues remain unresolved. Human rights standards are low, and public services, infrastructure and employment opportunities are inadequate. But Iraq has the chance to be one of the success stories of the coming decade as a stable democracy, with the patient work being done on democracy building throughout the rest of Iraq, the engagements we have with Ministers there, and the efforts they are making to confront some of the very difficult political challenges—I met a range of Ministers, including my good friend Foreign Minister Zebari, who chaired a ministerial trade council with me—and improve the future for all in Iraq. As we remember the past, and consider the challenges of the present, I hope we can also look forward to a future for Iraq that is more stable, democratic and prosperous, and that the UK can play a role in making that a reality in the years ahead.
Turning to today’s motion, I shall set out the Government’s position on whether we should recognise the terrible events of the Anfal campaign as an act of genocide. I am aware of the commendable support of my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon for the victims of Saddam’s dreadful campaign against the Kurds and his call for Saddam’s crimes to be recognised as genocide by the international community. I have heard today, as we all have, that this view is shared by many other hon. Members, some of whom could not be present today, and by many members of the public who signed a petition that was submitted to Parliament by my hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend and other Members will be aware of the Government’s position on the principle of genocide recognition—indeed, he and the hon. Member for Wrexham stated it. I am greatly sympathetic to the motion. The Government do not in any way oppose it and I have no doubt that Parliament will respond to the views expressed in the motion by my hon. Friend. It is currently the Government’s view, as we stated in responding to my hon. Friend’s e-petition, that it is not for Governments to decide whether genocide has been committed in this case, as there is a complex legal position. The hon. Member for Wrexham was quite right: it has implications for both today and yesterday. An international judicial body finding a crime to have been genocide often plays an important part in whether the United Kingdom recognises one as such. Whether or not the term “genocide” is applicable in this case, it is clear that appalling atrocities were perpetrated under Saddam Hussein against the Iraqi Kurds. His final conviction by the Iraq tribunal was for his crimes against humanity.
Europe
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Mark Hendrick
I remember our visit to China, but does the hon. Gentleman not think that the UK has far more influence around the world through its membership of the EU and the weight that that adds, so we should stay in the EU? Given that there are countries—Germany, for example—that do far more trade with China than we do, is it not important that we stay within the EU?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We need shorter interventions. The hon. Gentleman has already spoken—[Interruption.] He should know better. I do not mind interventions, but they must be short.
David Rutley
There is an opportunity for Europe to respond, but it is not responding—in fact, it has been caught completely flat-footed by the economic crisis and is not responding properly. We want that to change.
European Union (Croatian Accession and Irish Protocol) Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
No, the Minister is wrong. What a member state tries to do, across the piece and over a period of time, is to decide what its main priorities may be. That does not mean that every time a treaty is coming up, it decides to put yet another thing on the table. Indeed, I would argue that the problem with the Government’s current approach is that they are trying to fight the European Union on too many fronts at the same time and will not secure any of their intended outcomes.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am aware that the hon. Gentleman has only just come in, but we do need shorter interventions. I know that he gets carried away, but I am sure that he will be shorter in future.
Mr Lidington
I am not going to get drawn into a historical battle about my predecessors’ record in office. I would argue that the previous Government were too reluctant to use the leverage that we had from negotiations at the time of the Lisbon treaty, but that is a matter that the House can debate and historians will no doubt wish to comment on in future, and I do not want to spend further time on it today.
The measure before us will provide for the accession of Croatia to the European Union, thus marking another step in the Government’s long-held support—this country’s long-held support under successive Governments—for the enlargement of the European Union. Enlargement has been a project whereby the European Union has benefited from the United Kingdom’s ideas, engagement, and—dare I say it?— leadership over many years and under successive Administrations.
If we compare the history of Europe in the 20 years since the fall of the Berlin wall with the 20 years following the treaty of Versailles, drawing a contrast between, in the earlier period, a time when fragile new democracies collapsed under the strain of domestic political tension, dictatorship and invasion, and, in the 20 years just passed, a time when we have seen democracy, the rule of law and human rights entrenched in ever more countries on our continent, we can see the advantage that European Union enlargement has brought, and we can be proud of our own nation’s contribution to that process. In that spirit, I ask the House to support the Bill’s Second Reading.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I call Michael Connarty. [Interruption.] Sorry, I mean Emma Reynolds.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
The hon. Lady will know that another very important European debate was to take place in Westminster Hall this afternoon, but the lead speaker did not turn up. Does the hon. Lady have any excuse for why that happened and why hon. Members did not get that debate?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. That has no relevance to this debate, and hon. Members should know a little better than trying to embarrass each other. Surely we have better manners.
Emma Reynolds
I remind the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) that today’s debate is about Croatia’s accession to the European Union. Should other states wish to join, there will be debates in this House and Parliaments around the EU about that accession, and I am sure that conditions will be attached. I am sure there will be future opportunities to debate the subject to which the hon. Gentleman refers, even if that is not in order today.
To return to the subject, there is concern about conflicts of interest and the funding of political parties and electoral campaigns in Croatia. The European Commission has recommended that a conflict of interest commission “be established without delay”, and the Opposition support that demand. On competition policy, Croatia has taken positive steps to strengthen its anti-trust laws, but further progress is needed in relation to state aid in the steel and shipbuilding industries. As the Europe Minister said earlier, progress is also needed in restructuring the Croatian shipbuilding industry.
On border security, notwithstanding the Minister for Europe’s earlier remarks, Croatia will at some point assume responsibility for the EU’s south-eastern border. What happens on that border will directly impact on the rest of the EU, and indeed the UK, in terms of preventing illegal immigrants from entering the EU, and breaking up and stopping human trafficking—my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) referred to that issue. Croatia’s role in those areas will be vital, and we therefore welcome increased co-operation between Croatia and its neighbours. I welcome what the Europe Minister has said about the UK’s assistance in that area.
More widely, Croatia has taken positive steps towards accession in a number of areas, which should be welcomed. The police force and courts have undergone important reforms. A new police law has raised standards and removed political pressure, and respect and protection for human rights—in particular LGBT rights—has improved. During the debate in the House last year, I raised the issue of LGBT rights in Croatia, and expressed concern that a gay rights parade in Split had been attacked with no intervention or protection from the police. I am pleased to say that since that debate, gay pride events in Split and Zagreb have taken place peacefully and been protected. The European Commission and MEPs have continued to put pressure on the Croatian Government, and in particular I put on the record my thanks to Michael Cashman, a Labour MEP who has continued to put pressure on that Government for those welcome improvements.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I knew he would come into order. It was only a matter of time.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker. How lucky it is that there is unlimited time for this particular debate.
The Irish have shown with their protocol that it can be done. In fact, this is an exciting opportunity for this country. The Bill will be taken, and will be amendable by, a Committee of the whole House, and there has been much rejoicing at the conversion of the Labour party to deep, true-blooded, thorough-going Euroscepticism.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I tell the hon. Gentleman that he does not need to respond to that intervention, because he need only address the Bill?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was merely going to say, “From Westminster to Brussels,” but never mind—that will be debated at a later point.
The crux of the matter is that this was an opportunity for Her Majesty’s Government to ensure that we improved matters with regard to the free movement of people, extended the time for which that could be implemented, and asked the right questions about whether Croatia is ready to join and then delayed that until the right time. We are taking a risk with home affairs and justice by allowing this to go through and by recognising the Croatian justice system when it may not yet be fit. We are not taking the opportunity that the Irish have taken. We should do what the Prime Minister said in 2009 and use every single treaty negotiation to reinforce the repatriation of powers and to ensure that the United Kingdom can govern herself.
This Bill is a great opportunity, because it is required to be passed unanimously by all member states of the European Union. We have an opportunity to tag on a budget-related concession to our ratification of the Bill, to ensure that article 312(4) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union does not automatically kick in to force a rise in EU expenditure when the British people and many others want it to be cut. Let us give this Bill a Second Reading, but let us amend it in the Committee of the whole House to put British interests first.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
As my hon. Friend will know, I have been a strong pro-European all my political life, but I am very worried that yet another country is coming in from eastern Europe without a great democratic tradition. Hungary seems to be breaking every rule of a modern democracy, yet the European Union does nothing about it. I am getting more concerned about—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Gentleman has only just walked in and the usual courtesy is to listen to a little bit of the debate before intervening. We also need shorter interventions. I call Michael Connarty—it is up to you whether you answer.
Michael Connarty
I understand the emotions that are running among those who have been pro-EU in their —[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) should know better than to challenge the Chair. It is not my fault that he may have been somewhere else in the House. If his preference is to be on a Committee rather than here, that is his choice, but he should not expect to walk in and intervene in that way.
Mr Sheerman
I was on a Statutory Instrument Committee upstairs, and I have every right as a Member of Parliament to intervene on my colleague.
Mr Deputy Speaker
What I have said is that it is discourteous to other Members of this House not to have listened a little bit to debate, but instead to walk in and intervene straight away. That is my ruling.
Michael Connarty
I repeat: I understand that people who have been supportive of the EU process over many years are now expressing great concerns. Those concerns have been expressed in the European Parliament, and they are certainly expressed at great length in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, on the basis of human rights, as some of the issues in Hungary are a challenge in that respect. The question for us today is not what the EU should do about Hungary, however, but what we should do in relation to Croatia’s application to join the European Union.
As hon. Members know, I work on behalf of this Parliament as a member of the Labour delegation in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. In fact, I work in the committee on culture, science, education and media, which is chaired by Mr Gvozden—I believe that is the correct pronunciation—Flego, who is a professor from Croatia. He is very dedicated to human rights; in fact, a number of his colleagues are leading the way in challenging their Government to come up to the standards we require in the European Union and to support the application. The problem—the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) alluded to this—is that this treaty is one of the ones that, when the Government introduced the European Union Act 2011 and said that they would renegotiate the terms and relationship with the EU in this Parliament, was listed as not requiring a referendum because it is an accession treaty. That is a great pity, because the accession treaty not only allows Croatia to enter, but allows protocols to be added to the Lisbon treaty—that is, to amend it.
It is a great regret for many people in this country that we did not take the Lisbon treaty to a referendum, as we would have had to do if it were a constitutional treaty. Hon. Members will recall that when I chaired the European Scrutiny Committee and we reported on this matter, we came to the conclusion that the Lisbon treaty was not much different from the constitution, apart from a few flags, bunting and anthems. Really, it maybe should have been decided then whether a referendum was required. It will always be a great point of contention with the British people—and, I think people in this Chamber—that we did not get that clarified at the time.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Just for the record, it was a Conservative amendment that the Labour party supported.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
As the hon. Gentleman well knows, that is not a point of order. The other thing is that we are getting distracted from what is before us. Rather than being tempted into discussing the decisions of a previous House many years ago, let us get back to Croatia and Ireland.
Michael Connarty
The point has been made that there should be a wider mandate in deciding whether the treaty should go through. It should not just rest with this House. As you have said, Mr Deputy Speaker, that has been decided before, but the Bill contains provisions on the Irish protocol, which, as has been pointed out, provides only a clarification. It is the same protocol that the UK got in the original Lisbon treaty, but as was pointed out in many debates and in many legal opinions that we received in the Committee, all it stated was what was already in existence—that every country has the right to its own Bank and that no country will lose any rights that it already has because of the Lisbon treaty coming into force.
The protocol did not change anything, but if the Irish people require that reassurance, that is fine. However, it does trigger a change in the Lisbon treaty, and a change in a major treaty should, in reality, be required to be put to the British people—if, as has been pointed out, we are also to get the credibility of the Irish people. They may not do things they like; indeed, I remember when the Irish delegation came to tell us that because Ireland was a small country—one of my colleagues, the leader of the Scottish National party, was at the meeting when they said this—it had to do what Europe wanted, whereas the UK was a big country that could argue its corner much more strongly. The protocol will make no difference to the situation in Ireland, but it is in the Bill and it changes the treaty.
Angus Robertson
I shall make my point, then give the hon. Gentleman an opportunity to respond. I listened with great interest to what he said, and I am now clarifying the matter that he raised in the debate.
In recent parliamentary evidence, Graham Avery said:
“Scotland’s 5 million people, having been members of the EU for 40 years, have acquired rights as European citizens; for practical and political reasons, they could not—”
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that passing reference is one thing, but we will end up in a major debate. He is not where he was when he began speaking on this subject. There was much that was great in his history of Croatia, but I do not need to hear the history of Scotland.
Angus Robertson
I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] If I can respond to Mr Deputy Speaker and say that I was pleased to be able to discuss the different ways in which nations plan to accede to the EU. It is a simple statement of fact that there is a different position for those within the EU and those who are outside it.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. Two Members cannot be on their feet at the same time. We will end up with three of us on our feet.
Angus Robertson
If the intervention by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) is in order, Mr Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.] It is not in order, in which case I am disappointed that I will not be able to complete the answer as I would wish.
Michael Connarty
Having read the opinion—it has been given in writing, I think, to the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs—on the question of Scotland’s accession, has the hon. Gentleman read the other 13 submissions that contradict Mr Avery and do not take the same position, to say—
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I know that Mr Robertson wants to get back on to the subject, and that no hon. Member wants to distract him. He is not a man who is easily distracted.
Angus Robertson
You are very kind, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am disappointed that the hon. Members for Linlithgow and East Falkirk and for Caerphilly (Wayne David) have been ruled out of order when trying to mention Scotland in the way that they did. However, they had an opportunity to take part in the Westminster Hall debate earlier this afternoon. Unfortunately, they were not able—
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I have been very generous, but I am not going to be as generous now. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman wants to contribute a lot more to the debate, and we do not want to open up a debate about Westminster Hall. That is something that we are not going to do.
Angus Robertson
I shall conclude, Mr Deputy Speaker, by saying that I think that a nation of nearly 5 million— Croatia—joining the EU in 2013 is a good thing. It is good for the citizens of Croatia, and it is good for citizens in the rest of the European Union. We need to reflect on unresolved issues. Trafficking is a very serious matter, and there is a long track record in the European Scrutiny Committee of Members who care deeply about it. I commend the non-governmental organisation that the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk cited. We need to obtain assurances on those issues. It is important not only for the citizens of Croatia and the rest of the European Union but for those people who may be trafficked in future through any EU member state, which is why I again appeal to the Minister to take the opportunity to clarify the fact that the safeguards are of the highest standards and that we can have confidence in them.
We can look forward to Croatia’s membership. I reflect that I have not heard a single intervention today to suggest that it is a bad thing for this nation of 5 million people to take its seat at the top table in agreement with the Croatian Government. It is a gain in sovereignty for it to be able to take part directly in the EU, not just in the Council of Ministers, but with 12 MEPs in the European Parliament and a commissioner playing an important role. That bodes well for Croatia and for the western Balkans, leading to greater confidence in peace and stability in the region. We should send a strong message to other nations, whether Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia or others, that the door remains open to them. We are in favour of further enlargement. Beyond the issue of Croatia, reflecting on the fact that the Irish protocol is something that the Irish Government and people thought was important, Europe has listened. The protocol and the assurances within it—
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson). I am sure that throughout the debate we will have a few flashpoints over our differences in interpretation of the treaties, and the lessons of the Bill.
It is a testament to how far Croatia has progressed in the past nine years since it first applied for EU membership that we are being asked to approve the Bill that will ratify its likely accession to the EU as the 28th member state on 1 July 2013. Whereas 20 years ago it was recovering from the aftermath of the conflict with Serbia, the siege of Dubrovnik and the break-up of Yugoslavia, Croatia now has exciting plans to diversify its economy and invest in energy and tourism, and is cutting its deficit to under 4% of GDP, albeit in a period of somewhat patchy economic growth.
Although members of the European Scrutiny Committee are right to point to the further progress that needs to be made on judicial reform, the elimination of corruption in state-owned companies and the detection of crime, and that more must be done to bring suspected remaining war criminals to justice, it is also fitting that we now ratify the accession treaty signed on 9 December 2011, following 18 other EU member states that have done so, or have voted to do so, since February.
In January, some two thirds of those voting in Croatia’s referendum supported its accession to the EU as a means of embedding the rule of law and democratic values, and as a route to prosperity. There are, as hon. Members have mentioned, still some outstanding issues in connection with the ratification of the accession treaty by Slovenia, which has indicated that an agreement with Croatia over debts arising from the collapse of Ljubljanska banka in the 1990s still has to be reached.
Croatia proceeded through the 35 chapters of accession in the period of just more than five years, prior to the Commission’s making a favourable recommendation on its membership status. The political criteria required Croatia to ensure the stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for, and protection of, minorities. The economic criteria require the existence of a functioning market economy, as well as the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the EU.
The acquis criterion refers to the ability to take on the obligations of membership arising from the treaties and the Union’s legislation—the acquis—including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union, which would mean in due course Croatia adopting the euro as its currency, as under article 5 of the accession treaty it has no opt-out from participation in economic and monetary union. Indeed, no other accession state has had an opt-out, and no newly acceding or re-acceding member state would be likely to have one in future either.
The Commission’s monitoring report from last month found real progress being made on many fronts, although further attention had to be paid to the protection rights for LGBT people, the selection of new judges and prosecutors, and rooting out corruption in public procurement. On asylum and immigration policy, Croatia shows a good level of compatibility with the EU acquis, although further progress is required on visa requirements. As a new member state that will have to sign up in due course to the Schengen acquis, further work before entry to the Union will be required with regard to the free transit agreement with Bosnia and Herzegovina.
It is interesting to note that the record for the shortest period from application to accession in the history of the EU was Slovakia, which completed all stages within two and a half years. Croatia’s accession process, which has taken five years, compares relatively favourably with that. Of course, the example of Slovakia’s accession is a cautionary tale for all states intending to accede or re-accede that believe the process to be a mere formality. As we know from remarks by the Commission, the President of the EU Council and the FCO, that would not be the case for any state seeking accession or re-accession.
Croatia had to make speedy progress in several areas of the accession process, demonstrating the standard that the EU expects of new aspirant member states or—dare I say it?—parts of member states that decide to separate and form new entities that might seek entry to the EU. This debate is instructive, therefore, not only because of what Croatia had to do to satisfy the entry criteria or what other aspirant states, such as Serbia or Turkey, might have to do in the future, but in terms of what Scotland might have to do to become a member state if it votes for separation in 2014.
The first area where Croatia had to make significant reforms was in relation to the creation of an independent central bank. The EU Council issued a draft common position on the progress of the access negotiations with Croatia in 2009 in which it commented extensively on the advances made in the administrative capacities and remit of Croatia’s central bank, the HNB. It noted that during the financial crisis of 2008 the bank adopted prudential measures regarding reserve requirements and foreign currency liquidity requirements. In particular, it reduced the reserve requirements from 17% to 14%, decreased the foreign currency liquidity ratio from 28.5% to 20% and raised banks’ maximum allowed open foreign exchange positions. The HNB has been designated by the Council as the component supervisory authority for electronic money institutions—a vital step in ensuring financial stability, which is a prerequisite of EU entry.
The Council also accorded significant importance to the capacity of the central bank in its foreign currency liquidity requirements. Croatia has implemented regulations aligning it with the EU acquis on the new capital framework, the supervision of electronic money institutions, the winding up and reorganisation of credit institutions, the supplementary supervision of financial conglomerates and deposit guarantee schemes, and the enforcement of prudential requirements. Croatia required all this financial infrastructure before the Commission recommended that it be accepted for entry.
Let us apply the example of Croatia to the debate on other potential aspirant countries seeking accession or re-accession. Such a state, if it did not have its own central bank, would have to rely on another sovereign country’s central bank in order to harden or relax financial rules and requirements.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are drifting. I have pulled up other Members for doing the same. We need to stick to the subject in hand, rather than turning to other areas of accession.
Mr Bain
It does not follow from the EU’s deliberations with Croatia that Croatia’s offering another state’s central bank would have been acceptable to the EU in order to obtain the Commission’s recommendation for approval. That has intriguing lessons for future accessions and re-accessions. That is the implication of the Bill.
Croatia, through the State Agency for Deposit Insurance and Bank Rehabilitation, can guarantee bank deposits. It made significant improvements to this scheme in anticipation of complying with EU directive 94/19/EC, which specifies that all member states must have in place a safety net for bank depositors. It cannot be a criterion, then, for future accession or re-accession countries to fail to have a system to protect bank deposits. That is the implication that comes from Croatia’s accession process and which is reflected in the Bill.
The obvious question arises—the FCO mentioned this in a statement on Thursday—of how, if part of the EU were put into limbo, it could possibly meet the terms of such an EU directive, having no independent central bank, no machinery to guarantee bank deposits and having to rely on the central bank of another state to guarantee bank deposits. Those are all implications that come from Croatia’s accession process.
The lessons of the negotiations for any new aspirant state highlight the following issues: does it have its own financial services regulator or would it seek to continue with the current regulatory framework, which would be conducted by another state? What would be the governance arrangements for any financial services regulator? What degree of independence from Government would that have? What institution would be prepared to stand behind financial services firms with large deposits or policy holder liabilities? Indeed, how would it be possible to provide lender of last resort facilities without assuming regulatory control over financial transactions such as mortgages, insurance and even pensions? All these are issues that arise out of the Bill and the accession process that Croatia went through.
Finally, a framework to wind up failing or failed banks is required. In Croatia’s case, in chapter 9 of the 2009 common position document, the EU welcomed the alignment of Croatia’s legislation to the EU acquis with regard to bank accounts, branch accounts and the re-organisation and winding up of banks. In addition, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, in its 2010 to 2013 strategy for Croatia, considered the securities market regulator highly effective in pursuing complex cases. All those steps were essential in showing compliance with the EU acquis in order for Croatia’s application for membership to be accepted.
With reference to the rights of EU citizenship being conferred on Croatians joining the EU, it is appropriate that the Bill permits a phasing in of the right to work. The Minister was right to say that the UK should make use of the flexibility that allows up to seven years before full free movement rights will apply to Croatian nationals in the UK, as was the case with the accession of Bulgaria and Romania to the EU earlier.
The Opposition support future enlargement on the proper criteria. We note the applications made by Serbia, Montenegro and Turkey. Serbia was granted candidate status on 1 March this year, but has been advised by the EU that it can commence formal accession negotiations only if progress is made on the status of Kosovo and its future relations with Kosovo.
The Bill is important for Croatia’s relations with the rest of the EU and the outside world. In demonstrating that a country engaged in a bloody conflict two decades ago can emerge and be in a position to join the EU now, it shows the powerful benefits of full membership of the EU—benefits that go far beyond being a member of the European Free Trade Association. Simply being a member of that institution could render a country liable to be a net contributor to the EU budget but without any influence over how it is spent, and to be bound by the rules of the single market but with no ability to shape those rules. It was interesting that we had some figures this morning from the recent past of Scottish politics advising that a separate Scottish state should, instead of seeking EU membership, seek membership of EFTA instead—
Angus Robertson
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Would I be right in remembering your ruling to Members of the House that the debate should be about Croatia, not Scotland?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That is not a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. I have mentioned to Mr Bain that I need him to come to order on Croatia. I am sure he will do that, in the same way as other Members did who drifted when we pulled them back into order. That is where Mr Bain is now going.
Mr Bain
Indeed, that demonstrates Croatia’s wise decision to join the EU proper rather than seeking membership only of the European Free Trade Association, given the clear advantages that will accrue to its people when it becomes a full EU member state.
Furthermore, the Bill demonstrates precisely what states must do and the entry criteria with which they must comply before becoming members of the EU. I congratulate the people of Croatia on the progress they have made and welcome their entry next year. However, I also believe that it demonstrates the value of membership of the United Kingdom, the votes we have as a member of the EU Council and the ability to influence key decisions. That is a real benefit, and one that I and Opposition Members would not wish to see Scotland lose in coming years.
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute briefly to the debate—possibly more briefly than I had anticipated, given your recent ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker. Debates on the EU in this House often focus on our membership, and rightly so, but I think that it is important that, as the UK is a member state, we also engage with the wider issues, so I am pleased that we are debating Croatia’s accession.
As my hon. Friend the shadow Europe Minister and other Members have said, we support Croatian accession and EU enlargement more widely, provided that the proper criteria are met. With every new country that joins, the single market is widened and new markets are opened up for our exports. That can only be good for business across the UK and for our economy as a whole. However, it is very important that we ensure that candidate countries are ready to join before accession. Although Bulgaria and Romania were granted conditional accession, that turned out perhaps not to be a good model, and I think it is right that it was not repeated in Croatia’s case.
Given Croatia’s difficult not-too-distant history, and that of the wider Balkans region, I am particularly pleased that we are debating such progress and such a positive step. The EU has developed and progressed significantly since its relatively modest beginnings after the second world war, and Croatia’s accession reminds us of the power of the EU in moving on from conflict and as a mechanism for countries working together for positive aims. As we have heard, Croatia will be the second state from the former Yugoslavia to join the EU, and I very much hope that others will make progress towards membership.
Over the past 10 years or so, I have visited Croatia and other Balkan countries a number of times, sometimes on holiday and sometimes as part of a visiting group of political representatives, both as a Member of Parliament and before I was elected. I continue to be interested in the region, its progress and the challenges it faces. Earlier this year I joined other hon. Members from both sides of the House on a visit to Bosnia. Although she is not present, I want to thank the hon. Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley) and her office for arranging what was a very informative trip, and also for her good company.
I had previously visited Bosnia about 10 years ago, and at the time I was struck by the sense of optimism and hope for the future. I must say that I encountered quite a different and much less optimistic mood when I visited this year. I came home with renewed interest in what is happening in that country and a deep sense that we need to pay much more attention to Bosnia’s situation. At times, the situation in that country has seemed intractable, and I fear that it might get harder to resolve. I hope that we can support other countries in the region to move forward alongside Croatia.
Hon. Members will be aware that this has not been an easy process for Croatia. From the creation of its Ministry of European Integration in 1998 and the submission of its formal application for membership in 2003, it appears, hopefully, that the people of Croatia will finally be granted EU membership by July 2013, ending a 15-year journey. However, there is still work to be done by the Croatian Government to ensure that they are ready to finalise accession, most notably in relation to security of the new EU border that they will control.
I have crossed the border from Slovenia into Croatia; the Minister mentioned the border crossing, which is where the narrow strip of Bosnia juts into Croatia. I have also crossed from Croatia into Montenegro. I thought I might end up spending longer than I wanted at that crossing; as we approached from Dubrovnik, my now husband stalled the car and we went kangarooing into the checkpoint with rather a lot of noise and commotion—not really what people want to do as they approach a border checkpoint. For whatever reason, however, the officers simply checked our passports and waved us through; I assume that they thought that no one who was up to no good would make such a dramatic entrance.
Notwithstanding the border issue, membership of the EU will make a real difference to Croatians, enshrining basic rights and principles, opening up Europe to them and signing them up to the single market. Given the history and struggles of their country, that is a significant step as it progresses into the future.
I am conscious, Mr Deputy Speaker, of your remarks about comments concerning other countries that might accede to the EU and I know that you are aware of the ongoing debate about that issue. What is not helpful in that debate are baseless assertions from the Scottish Government that continuing seamless membership of the EU is guaranteed. That has been discredited by clear statements from the current President of the EU Commission. It will have taken Croatia 10 years to meet the criteria necessary to join the EU, from negotiating issues relating to its financial regulatory system to its external political relationship. I do not think that people in Croatia would have put up with the leaders of their country misleading the public about the legal advice on membership of the EU as we have seen the Scottish First Minister do.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. As I have made clear, we do not want to drift. I know that the hon. Lady is making comparisons, but I am sure that the people of Croatia are not discussing Scotland, just as we will not.
Gemma Doyle
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
A new country needs to establish itself and the appropriate institutions, and Croatia has shown how difficult that process can be. I am sure that that will be a lesson for all new states seeking to join the EU. EU membership is not automatic and is not easy to obtain, but after significant progress in the past 15 years, I very much support the Bill and look forward to welcoming Croatia’s accession to the EU next summer.
Antarctic Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Cash
It is very kind of my hon. Friend to suggest that, but if any such thing were ever done, I should prefer it to be done after we had defeated those in Brussels. Let us get that done first, and then we can think about some method of commemorating the event, if and when it occurs.
I thought that it would be helpful to give some idea of the sort of activities in which those on the expedition were engaged. There was, in fact, an important expedition within the expedition, which took place in October 1903. Scott writes: “Because the region in which much of our work lay was very beautiful and interesting, I propose to take the reader”—and, on this occasion, the House—“into the details of one more sledging excursion. The party with which I left the ship on October 12th 1903 numbered 12 members in all”, and he says who they were.
Scott led the advance party himself; the second party was led by the geologist Mr Ferrar, with whom went two men, Kennar and Weller. He says: “The original scheme was that the whole party should journey together to the summit of Victorialand, and it was said that there should be an absence of nine weeks calculated for the advance party.” To cut a long story short—[Laughter.] It is quite a long story, but I make no apology for that.
I do want to make one thing clear. Astonishingly, although they were completely lame and exhausted, those who had led the second party were determined to follow the first group. Scott writes: “Once or twice they halted to brew tea to keep themselves going, but not one of them had suggested the halt should be extended.” That was in absolutely incredible conditions. He goes on: “In the hard struggle of the last few hours, some of the men had kept things going by occasionally indulging in some dry remark which caused everyone to laugh. Kennar’s attitude had been one of grieved astonishment. Presumably referring to me, he kept repeating ‘If he can do it, I don’t see why I can’t…My legs are as long as his.’”
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Perhaps he could, but the hon. Gentleman cannot. I know that he is desperate to return to the Second Reading debate, although he has given us a great history lesson and we welcome that. I just hope that we do not spend too much time on global warming, given the amount of his speech that he has already used up.
Mr Cash
I simply say that it is important to put on record that all the work that is being done in Cambridge and is being talked of now refers back to those amazing people, who were, as Ernest Shackleton wrote subsequently, “the life and soul” of the party. The archives include the “South Polar Times”, and I think that people should take a look at that. In his letter to Mrs Kennar, Shackleton wrote that
“the Prince of Wales read the South Polar Times with great pleasure.”
The importance of the archiving, and the historical context of all this, need to be reaffirmed by all of us who are fascinated by the Antarctic expedition. We should recognise the work that is being done now, the work that will be done under the Bill, and the tremendous courage and determination of those who started all this. That deserves to be recalled. At the same time, we should to do all that we can to ensure that the existing organisation that was referred to by the hon. Member for Cambridge and my hon. Friends the Members for Stroud and for Romford is maintained, and that the finances are in the right shape to enable it to continue in the manner that was intended by those on the original expedition. It is quite right that the Government are supporting the Bill.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. An intervention is meant to be very short. The hon. Lady had a good go, and I tried to give her a nudge, but she wanted to carry on. I am sure that Mr Davies, with his ability, has got the message. If needs be, the hon. Lady can intervene again shortly.
Philip Davies
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. It is a shame that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset is not here, as he could add the Science and Technology Committee’s report to the reading material on seals with which I will supply him. I am sure that piece of work will trump anything I can produce, and that my hon. Friend will be particularly interested in it.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex has been pressing the Government on the British Antarctic Survey, and in particular its cost to the public purse over the past few years. Given the financial situation we are in, it is understandable that expenditure has been considerably reduced over the past five years or so. Does the Minister have any thoughts on what an optimum amount of money would be to ensure that BAS’s work continues? Total resource and capital expenditure has fallen from £56 million to £46 million over the past six years.
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Evans. I am sure that your predecessor, Mr Hoyle, was sad to leave during such an exciting part of the debate. Clause 14 amends the Antarctic Act 1994 to enable the UK to grant permits to non-British nationals on British expeditions, and it concerns an important point that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset raised earlier. The legislation will enable foreign scientists working in the UK to apply to the UK for authorisation, rather than to their national Governments. As I understand, non-UK nationals are not currently eligible for a UK permit, even if their activity is to take place on an expedition organised by a British scientific institution. The Bill’s explanatory notes highlight that that has previously “caused inconvenience” to some UK institutions that employ non-UK nationals, and could even prevent a national of a state not party to the protocol from being issued a permit. That anomaly clearly needs to be resolved, and this Bill is a useful mechanism for dealing with it.
Part 2 of the Bill also implements agreed revisions to annex 2 of the environmental protocol on the conservation of Antarctic fauna and flora. It tidies up the implementation of the original treaty, which was signed in 1959 and came into force in 1961, and subsequent agreements. The Bill proposes to
“give marine plants and invertebrates protection for the first time”—
I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud is proud to do that—
“introduce measures to conserve British Historical Sites and Monuments in Antarctica better”,
which I am sure all hon. Members support, and
“update the Antarctic Act 1994 to facilitate better regulation of British activities in Antarctica, including to respond to the increasing internationalisation of Antarctic expeditions.”
Other matters tend to be fairly straightforward. I am anxious about time and to hear what the Minister has to say, and I am sure that all hon. Members wish to see other important business progress. In conclusion, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud on his Bill, which has the support of the whole House. I would like to think that my contribution has been helpful—people do not always say that my contributions to Friday debates are helpful, but on this occasion I hope it has been useful in raising issues that we may wish to consider further in Committee. We must ensure that we end up with a Bill that gives the best possible protection to an important part of British overseas territories, which is what we all want.
European Communities Act 1972 (Repeal) Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We have three speakers, so we will start with Mr Edward Leigh and then work our way through.
Balance of Competences
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Last, but certainly not least, I call Chris Pincher.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker; I know my place.
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on this initiative, but does he agree that when the results of the audit are known, thanks to the supine posture struck by previous Governments, the British people will be shocked at the extent to which the EU involves itself unnecessarily in our affairs?
Jerusalem (Humanitarian Issues)
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(12 years, 1 month ago)
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Mr Slaughter
I thank the Minister for pointing out some truths—I think to Government Members as well. He is going slightly off the subject by talking about the death penalty in Gaza, and perhaps he will also reflect on the 20 Palestinian civilians killed by the Israeli air force recently, as they too suffered the death penalty. His Government are not so good, however, on action. They did not support and, therefore, effectively sabotaged in the United Nations Security Council the Palestinian bid for statehood. If the bid goes back to the UN General Assembly in April, will the Government support non-member status?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. It was meant to be a very short intervention, but that was almost a speech. If you need to, you will have to put in for your own Adjournment debate.
Mr Browne
As I said, there will be an opportunity in Westminster Hall tomorrow afternoon for a debate three times the length of this one about such matters, but the Government’s position is very clear: we wish to see the two-state solution, which I have just described, and we make our judgments based on what we think is most likely to achieve that outcome.
We continue to urge both sides to demonstrate the political will and leadership necessary to break the current dangerous impasse and to achieve a sustainable solution to the problems highlighted in this evening’s debate.
I am grateful to Members on both sides for fitting so many informed and passionate contributions into the short period that was allotted for our deliberations on the matter.
Question put and agreed to.
Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I know that this is an important debate and that everyone wants to get in, but we have so many speakers that I am going to have to impose a seven-minute time limit. However, even then it will be very tight, so if Members could save some time and ease up on the interventions, that would be helpful.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Eight speakers wish to speak and the Minister would like 15 minutes in which to wind up, so it would be helpful if Members tried to be generous to others.
Stephen Phillips
If the hon. Lady had actually read the fiscal compact treaty, and if she had been here when my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) made his speech—I do not think she was—she would know that article 8 of the treaty provided for penalties in relation to countries that are not eurozone members. She would also know that article 16 required the treaty to be rolled into the treaty on the functioning of the European Union within the next five years. That is the thin end of a wedge and indicates clearly to me and other members of the European Scrutiny Committee that in the current case it is possibly being contemplated that the provisions of the treaty will in due course become binding on the United Kingdom, notwithstanding the fact that the UK is not a member of the eurozone. That is the direct answer to her question.
When the Leader of the Opposition says that he would have negotiated further on the treaty, Conservative Members are entitled to ask with whom he would have negotiated. The negotiations had come to an end. Is the hon. Lady saying that the Leader of the Opposition would have negotiated with himself? The Opposition need to stop opposing just for the sake of opposition, and instead stand behind the Prime Minister and his veto and behind debates such as this. With that said, I hope that the—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order.
I have three speakers still to call, and we have 10 minutes before the wind-ups.
Iran
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
I knew somebody was going to make that point to me, so I anticipated it. Of course Israel has a nuclear capability, although it has never acknowledged it, but the difference between Israel and Iran is that Israel is a stable democracy and Iran is an unpredictable country—under its current regime. That is not to say that under a future regime it will not change, but under its current regime I should not predict the circumstances in which it might or might not use such nuclear capability.
The whole essence of the cold war—Russia, America, Britain, France—was that none of us dared use nuclear weapons even if we had the inclination, which I am sure we never did, because we knew the destruction that they would cause, having seen it in Japan during the second world war. It is a huge thing to press the nuclear button, so, despite my hon. Friend disagreeing with me, I think that we have to be very careful about reaching such a situation with Iran.
The other point that I wish to make, in the rapidly shrinking time that I have this evening, is that I wholly support the efforts of my right hon. Friends in the coalition to bring about a diplomatic solution. That solution has to be backed up with sanctions, and I wholly believe that we must have the military option available to us when we go into the diplomatic negotiating chamber. I profoundly disagree with my hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, because if we rule out that option before we have even completed diplomatic negotiations we will be in a considerably weaker position.
Of those three legs to the stool, we need to concentrate on sanctions, and the greatest role that the British Foreign Office—our Government, our Ministers—can play is to get some of our allies on side: to get Russia, China, Turkey and India all on side to make those sanctions effective. If the reports in the newspapers today are to be believed, and Turkey, China and India are participating in barter deals to get around our banking sanctions, that very considerably weakens them. I hope that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench take that point well and truly on board.
This country has always been very good at soft power. Our diplomatic service has always been the best and our British Council has always been the best, but in this situation one of the greatest contributions we can make to resolving the problem without the necessity of going to war—I cannot stress enough that I do not advocate war, which is the last thing we want to see—is, as the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) said, to look very carefully at the BBC World Service. The BBC’s Farsi service can contribute a huge amount to the situation, and we should go the extra mile to ensure that it is not jammed, that we do not cut the service and that we broadcast the optimum number of hours on shortwave, over the internet and on television, for those middle class people in—
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
This House engaged in a war with Iraq that was based on non-existent weapons of mass destruction, and 179 of our brave British soldiers died along with an uncounted number of Iraqis. We remained in Afghanistan and went into Helmand on the basis of a non-existent terrorist threat to the United Kingdom from the Taliban. When we went into Helmand, two British soldiers had died in warfare and five more in other ways; having gone into Helmand, however, the figure is now 398. We are now in a position of stumbling into another war on the basis of non-existent nuclear weapons and non-existent missiles.
Some of us present when those decisions were taken vividly remember how the decision on Iraq went through this House—not on the basis of truth or evidence, but because this House was bribed, bullied and bamboozled into taking a decision that many thought was wrong. The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) was one Member and the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) another who opposed that decision because the evidence was not there.
We should look at the evidence before us now of the threat from a missile in Iran with a range of 6,000 miles. Members will recall that we heard of this threat three or four years ago when America wanted to set up missile sites in Poland and the Czech Republic. The Russians were quite rightly angry about this, but the pretext for it was the protection of the Russians and the Poles from missiles from Iran. It was a wholly implausible threat and we have not heard much of it since, but now that an election is coming up in America, the myth has been resurrected.
I claim some pedigree in opposing nuclear weapons and nuclear technology in Iran. I raised the subject in December 1992 in parliamentary questions—I shall not bore the House with the details—to the then Minister, Michael Heseltine. At that time, we were told that it was absolutely right to hand over nuclear technology to our ally at the time—the Shah of Persia.
One Conservative Member said, “We must still punch above weight.” Why? Punching above our weight means dying beyond our responsibilities. A young soldier from south Wales died last month, but he will not be counted among the 398 dead in Afghanistan. He was shot twice there and was slightly injured in two further incidents involving improvised explosive devices, but the event that destroyed him was watching his virtually limbless best friend die in his arms. He came back broken in mind, and last month he took his life.
We have lost 398 and at least 1,000 others are also broken in mind and body because we as a House decided that we wanted to punch above our weight in the world. That was our decision, and we cannot escape from it. The present Government and previous Governments have tried to minimise the extent of the bereavement and the loss. Those who have suffered because of this, the loved ones and the bereaved, will face an awful situation in the future. When the death toll reaches 400, which it surely must, although we all regret it, all the grief will be churned up again and there will be attention to it. To get the list of the dead on to the Order Paper requires 24 early-day motions, but what we should look at is what those people will see. Many of them were consoled by the belief that their loved ones died in a noble cause—that they died preventing terrorism on the streets of Britain. What conclusion will they reach when, in a few years’ time, we hand over the government of Afghanistan to the very people whom we said we were fighting against, to the very same threat? We will be handing it back to the Taliban.
The hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) was absolutely right. The effect of our intervention in Iraq was to replace one rotten, cruel, oppressive regime with another rotten, cruel, oppressive regime, and the result in Afghanistan will be the same. A bad regime, the Taliban, will go out, and we will replace it with what? With the Taliban again. It seems extraordinary that we have to behave as though we were still in the 19th century and that Britannia still rules the waves. We do not have to take on these situations. We do not have to be the Little Sir Echo to American policy.
There is an unsolved riddle in the House about how we have been represented. There was an investigation of the conduct of the last Defence Secretary that was alleged to constitute a breach of the ministerial code, but the investigation itself constituted a breach of the ministerial code because it was not carried out by the sole enforcer of that code, Sir Philip Mawer. He has resigned within the last couple of months and someone else has been put in his place. There is great concern that the person involved in this matter, Adam Werritty, who was the adviser to—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is about to return to the subject of Iran. I am sure that that is where he is heading next.
Paul Flynn
This is precisely about Iran, because it has been claimed that Adam Werritty and the former Secretary of State were in meetings with Israelis—indeed, it is a proven fact that at least five meetings took place—and that the subject of those meetings was Iran. That has been reported in many of our national newspapers. However, the investigation has yet to be carried out. We have seen a brief investigation by a civil servant who was not entitled to carry it out, and we have seen the resignation of the person who is the sole enforcer and who told a Select Committee that he believed that he, not Gus O’Donnell, should have conducted the investigation.
We have yet to find out what on earth was going on. Did we have a Secretary of State who was conducting his own foreign policy on Iran and perhaps bringing us closer to war? The Select Committee has yet to finish its report, but a fortnight ago I asked Philip Mawer’s successor, “If the Committee decides that you are not a fit person to take on this job”—because he has not shown the robust independence that is necessary to the job—“what will you do?” He said that he would relinquish his position. That has yet to be decided.
Finally, let me say that the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay deserves great praise for introducing the debate. He has already succeeded—
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Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are in a very serious position with a lot of Members wishing to speak. I am going to have reduce the time limit to five minutes, and even with that limit not all Members will get in if people intervene.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Before calling the next speaker, let me say that, ideally, I will call the first Front-Bench speaker at 28 minutes past 1. I call Bernard Jenkin.