Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lady Hermon Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mark Durkan
New clauses 1 and 3 are tabled by me and my hon. Friends the Members for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie).
I should explain to the House that new clause 1 expands on an amendment I tabled in Committee— in the Public Bill Committee upstairs, rather than in Committee of the whole House. The point of the new clause is to afford the House an opportunity to consider whether some of the work undertaken on the past in Northern Ireland could be consolidated and could have its value advertised and added to by creating the capacity for the Secretary of State to commission a report or reports by a person or persons on various groups or classes of cases, on events in a particular locality or period, or on the activities of a particularly paramilitary group within a particular period of time.
We are suggesting that a class report, based on other reports and findings that have already been produced—whether by the Historical Enquiries Team, established inquiries or independent panels, or even by reviews that might be established in the future—would be necessary because at the minute we have a fairly inadequate arrangement whereby if the HET reports on a case the report is given to the family concerned and treated as though it is the property of the family. It is published only if the family chooses to publish it and only in the manner the family chooses.
When there have been issues with some of the HET’s work, not least when it has investigated what have been called “Army deaths”, that situation has meant that although the HET has done some good work over a number of years, which has been valuable to the families, many families have not felt that they could discharge the burden of publishing the work. Of course, other families have been able to publish that work or to turn to the assistance of others to have it published. In recent times, a powerful compilation examining different HET reports has been produced by the Pat Finucane Centre, resulting in a book called “Lethal Allies.” It draws on the HET reports on a number of cases, on Ministry of Defence files and on other papers in the national archive to set out more of the circumstances behind a certain group of murders—the up to 120 murders conducted by the Glenanne gang. That powerful book has been able to draw on HET reports simply because those families gave the reports to the Pat Finucane Centre and entrusted it with that work. That points towards a wider gap in the provisions on the past, not least those that the Secretary of State would preside over in the public interest and in the name of the wider political process.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have enormous regard, in full flow, but is he speaking on behalf of a small group of families whose loved ones’ murder the HET has investigated, or is he speaking on behalf of the majority of those families, they having asked him to make this change?
Mark Durkan
In no way could I claim to be speaking for a majority of all the families whose cases have been investigated by the HET, but I have met many of the families, and I appreciate the very different experiences that they report to me. Some families are unhappy about how the HET investigated their case, and what it was able, or not able, to find; other people were particularly satisfied, and have taken consolation and a sense of closure from what the HET has been able to do for them. The point is that many families feel that there may be an unequal process in relation to the past, and they are coming at that from different points of view and experiences. The new clause tries to ensure that our approach to the past, not least in terms of the HET, is more holistic.
The Historical Enquiries Team has been seriously compromised by a report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary that found that the HET’s conduct of investigations of what are called “Army deaths” was so unequal and off-standard as to be illegal. That has put a serious question mark over the future of the HET’s discharging of its investigative role. Many of us believe that there is a need to replace the HET with a new body that is clearly compliant with article 2 of the European convention on human rights, and that if such a new body were created, the role relating to historical investigations that attaches to the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland could devolve to that new body; we see the possibility of that article 2 compliant body taking over both the HET’s role in investigating the past, and the police ombudsman’s role in investigating complaints about past police conduct. Whether or not that new body is created, there needs to be an ability to draw on the good work already done by the HET in a lot of cases—work that currently is not celebrated, or shared in a meaningful way with the wider public.
Lady Hermon
Will the hon. Gentleman indicate to the House whether the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Matt Baggott, has in recent weeks made it evident that he has any intention of replacing the HET and has lost confidence in it? That certainly was not the information that he gave to the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs two or three weeks ago.
Mark Durkan
I am not speaking for the Chief Constable; I am speaking to the new clause. I have said that many of us believe that the HET has been seriously injured, and that the viability of it serving its purpose in future, and its reliability, have been fundamentally wounded. I know that many people on the Northern Ireland Policing Board have that view as well. As to whether the Chief Constable has come to that view, we will have to see. The new clause does not legislate for a new body; it simply allows us to ensure that if a new body were created, that would not negate good work already done by the HET, and good work done, and sound reports produced, by the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.
The new clause would ensure that reports can be commissioned not just on individual cases and events, but on evident lessons or patterns in findings relating to different cases and events. Anne Cadwallader, on behalf of the Pat Finucane Centre, has been able to bring out glaring and compelling points relating to the Glenanne gang and its work: the connections between many different killings; the repeated use of various weapons; the likely involvement of some people; and issues of collusion and complicity in all that. That approach should be available for other cases, too. It is not just about being able to tell that narrative about the activities of loyalist paramilitaries; there are compelling narratives that need to be told about the activities of republican paramilitaries as well.
Lady Hermon
In the new clause, the hon. Gentleman refers to the Historical Enquiries Team, the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and various other inquiries and inquests. Will he kindly take this opportunity to put on the record his genuine appreciation of all the retired police officers, members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and members of the armed services who, time beyond number, have willingly and freely given up their time to co-operate with the police ombudsman, the HET and various other inquiries and inquests?
Mark Durkan
I have no problem acknowledging where there has been very good and sound co-operation with the HET and with the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. However, both have put it on record that they have not universally found such co-operation on the part of every single person they have sought to interview.
I further note that the Northern Ireland Retired Police Officers Association recently issued its own qualifications in relation to its future co-operation with the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, regarding the latter’s report on a murder that happened in my constituency in the late 1980s. I question the terms in which the retired police officers have voiced their position. Indeed, the statement the association has issued adds to the questions about that event and the background to that murder. Two innocent civilians were allowed to die when, after 10 o’clock mass, they went to inquire after a neighbour they had not seen for some time, so there were questions about whether he was at his flat. When they did so, purely out of their good nature, they became the victims of a booby-trap bomb that was in the block of flats, having been planted by the IRA, who are absolutely the culprits in this—let nobody else say anything different. It is clear from the police ombudsman’s report that the police—the security forces—were aware that the bomb was there. They made sure they did not go near it, but it was left and civilians died. I regret that the retired police officers have chosen this particular report on which to voice a strangely couched position in relation to the police ombudsman.
Mark Durkan
No, there would be no free-for-all for lawyers in my proposal, because it would not add any new form of investigation relating to the past. The new clause basically says that whatever different strands are dealing with complaints about the past, whether it be the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains, the HET or any successor body, the police ombudsman, or any other inquiries or panels—and whatever their work is—this House would receive an annual report showing what had been done in that year. It would also address article 2 compliance, because that is a serious issue that has arisen in relation to the HET, and other matters.
One issue the annual report could address is whether the reports of that year show new findings and put new light on events that were previously the subject of very different accounts in Parliament. We know that Ministers reported very differently to Parliament about a lot of these events, compared with the evidence now available from HET reports and Government papers that have emerged from the archives, thanks to the work of the Pat Finucane Centre and others. The annual report, with the statement from the Secretary of State, could be a parliamentary point of record for any apologies that have been issued by anybody in Government, and not only the British Government. Any apology by any public body or any Government in respect of findings or reports would be recorded, rather than being left as though it is just a matter of private correspondence between a victim’s family and a Government Department, which is the Government’s current position. The Government say that if they issue an apology on the back of something in an HET report or anything else, they do not see it as being up to them to record it or to acknowledge it in Parliament in any way. If the Government are iffy about doing that in every single instance, an annual report that reflected on work on the past and responses to it would provide a way for them to do it.
It would be very important for this House, as its encouragement to the parties in the Haass talks, to say, “Yes, we know that on the issue of the past there is a huge responsibility on the parties to come to an agreement and an understanding on how better to deal with it. More honestly addressing the serious events of Northern Ireland’s past is not the job of the Northern Ireland parties alone; there is a serious and particular role for the British Government and for this House, which held Northern Ireland under direct rule for so many years and heard so many accounts and versions of events that may now have to be addressed differently in the light of what reports find.”
Lady Hermon
Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that what he is proposing smacks entirely of a one-sided report, account and interpretation of the past? The vast majority of murders throughout the 30 years of mayhem in Northern Ireland were committed by the IRA. Who, exactly, is going to stand in this House and apologise for the murder by the IRA of innocent victims in their hundreds?
Mark Durkan
Unfortunately, I do not know who will do that. If families have received apologies from the British Government or the Ministry of Defence, there is no reason why they should not be recorded in this House. Remember, many people lost loved ones and saw those deaths misreported and mis-accounted for in this House and in other places, and that is one reason why we need to reflect that. If apologies have been given in response to any reports on or inquiries into the past—whether the HET, the ombudsman or any of the other channels provided for on a non-pre-emptive basis in the new clause—there is no reason why they should not be properly recorded.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the Minister for his helpful intervention. I have received some parliamentary answers on this issue, so it is on the record. However, I am still not satisfied because I know that those files are available. I simply want to know why they were not pursued, given that they might have been helpful in bringing prosecutions. Perhaps he could pursue that with Ministers in the MOD.
In summary, the new clause is eminently sensible at this time. It could inform the debate.
Lady Hermon
I wonder whether the hon. Lady will take this opportunity to address a valid point that was made by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). How do she and her colleagues propose that the Secretary of State would appoint the person or persons who would prepare such an analysis? What criteria would be used? Would it be done by a man or a woman? Would the person be an international figure? Who do she and her colleagues have in mind?
Ms Ritchie
We would be happy to provide some information on that. It could be an individual, a range of individuals or a range of bodies.
Suffice it to say that we believe that this device is required in order to inform because patterns have emerged in various cases, such as in the weapons that were used, that suggest who might have been involved in carrying out murders. It is good to learn those lessons and to have them documented. The compendium of work by Anne Cadwallader, which was published several weeks ago, suggests that such a device is urgently required.
Lady Hermon
I would not like this opportunity to pass without saying that when I was first elected in 2001, I was then an Ulster Unionist, and Eddie McGrady was a marvellous friend. At the end of a lengthy debate, he and his then colleague Seamus Mallon—both brilliant parliamentarians and very fine gentlemen indeed—would often ask me to join them for supper. It was a spontaneous act of kindness, which was the mark of the man. At Eddie McGrady’s requiem mass in Downpatrick on Thursday, there really was standing room only, which was a tribute from right across the board and the political spectrum in Northern Ireland. We wanted to pay tribute, because rarely do we see that kind of parliamentarian and politician in Northern Ireland. He was of the old school and a gentleman in every sense.
Mr Lewis
I hope that the sincere words that have been uttered in all parts of the House will be some comfort to Eddie McGrady’s family and friends at this difficult time. Indeed, perhaps we can ensure that those words are relayed to them from this House.
If I may make some progress, let me again condemn in the strongest possible terms the petrol bomb attack on the Alliance party office in east Belfast over the weekend. All Members of this House will want to express their support and concern for the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), the Alliance MLAs and their staff. A first principle of any democracy is that elected representatives should be able to speak and vote free of intimidation or the fear of violence. That is why, irrespective of political differences, we should take every opportunity to express our solidarity with the hon. Lady, who frankly has suffered intolerable attacks in recent times. It is not good enough for politicians, either in Westminster or Stormont, to remain silent in the face of such an affront to democracy. They should turn up the volume in making it clear that such intimidation and violence are entirely unacceptable and can never be justified. It is also essential that the Police Service of Northern Ireland continues to do all in its power to prevent such attacks and bring those responsible to justice.
Mr Lewis
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have a long track record of obeying your instructions in a variety of contexts, and shall do so again.
Dealing specifically with new clause 3, I ask the Minister to look sympathetically at the proposal that the Secretary of State should provide an annual report to the House on the work of the various organisations that deal with the past. As the current Haass talks highlight, dealing with the past in a serious and meaningful way is essential if the people of Northern Ireland are to make progress on building a shared future. While it is right that dealing with any processes relating to the past are led by the Northern Ireland Executive, there must be full and consistent engagement by the UK and Republic of Ireland Governments both because of their central role in the troubles and because likely solutions will require their active participation and their legislative and financial support.
Although we broadly support the Bill, as I said at the beginning of my contribution, it is somewhat disappointing in its lack of ambition. It fails to do anything that will support economic growth or create opportunities for young people, which in my view are the greatest challenges Northern Ireland faces. While those issues are primarily the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive, the UK Government have a key role to play.
As the Minister will be aware, unemployment in Northern Ireland remains above the UK average, with almost one in four young people out of work. Too many communities are struggling with the corrosive cycle of poor educational attainment, worklessness and inter-generational deprivation. That is on top of a cost of living crisis in which prices are rising and wages are falling.
In conclusion, the Bill is necessary and, broadly speaking, deserves the support of the House. However, there are far bigger issues facing Northern Ireland that require the full engagement of the Government working with the Irish Government to support the Northern Ireland Executive. I hope this Government will start to show the leadership that is so essential at this crucial time for peace and stability in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me a second time. Before he concludes, would he address some of the criticisms made by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for whom, I repeat, I have enormous regard, even though I have not agreed with half of what he has said this evening? While the hon. Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis) is considering new clauses 1 to 3, would he particularly address the hon. Gentleman’s criticisms of the Historical Enquiries Team?
Mr Lewis
At Madam Deputy Speaker’s urging, I was bringing my remarks to a conclusion, but I will address the specific point that the hon. Lady mentions. We will deal with the issue in our response to Ambassador Haass, which the hon. Lady asked me to put in the public domain; we shall do so in the next few days. My view is that, on the whole and in many cases, the work of the Historical Enquiries Team has been effective and has delivered some level of justice to victims. I think we should applaud that and draw attention to it at every opportunity. However, some serious and legitimate concerns have been raised about elements of the HET’s work, which must be seriously considered. There are also questions about the criteria applied to the investigations, the independence of the HET, its capacity to do its job, and the HET’s ability to carry out its functions given the limited resources available to the PSNI.
Haass therefore provides an important opportunity not only to review and recognise the successes of the HET, but to reflect in the context of any new framework that is developed on some of the weaknesses and to try to put them right. We need a balanced and a measured approach to the HET. In speaking to victims, it has brought truth to a number of them—there is no question about that—but we know that independent evaluation has raised some serious and legitimate concerns. In the role that Ambassador Haass is fulfilling in the all-party talks, it is very important to get the balance right. Options would include a reformed HET or a replacement body to build on the successes of the HET, but there must be some structure to deliver truth and justice for the victims of violence in Northern Ireland. We need a balanced and sensible view of the HET’s successes, reform of the HET and of any future replacement body.
Mr Dodds
I have absolutely no difficulty with the Assembly’s Standing Orders providing for that, because I have already referred to my interpretation of what those paragraphs relate to. All I am saying is that the massively cumbersome, clumsy, convoluted, time-consuming, time-wasting process set out in new clause 2 on petitions of concern will be a disaster for the Northern Ireland Assembly if this House is ever so unwise as to pass it.
Lady Hermon
May I take the liberty of trying to summarise what the right hon. Gentleman has said? I understand that he and his colleagues disagree vehemently with the content and detail of new clause 2, but am I right in understanding that they support the Assembly parties looking at the excessive use of petitions of concern? Does he accept that they are used excessively in the Assembly, that we have stalemate on too many occasions and that it is simply left for the Assembly to deal with this issue?
Mr Dodds
I do not accept that. I do not accept that we have an excessive use of petitions of concern. I would need to look at all the evidence and, as I have said, 40% of the petitions are put down by nationalists. I do not subscribe to any gridlock being entirely down to these petitions, but the new clause would add to the problems if it were passed. Let us consider the example of welfare reform, which is currently held up in the Assembly. The Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), who has now moved on, was in Northern Ireland the other day warning about the consequences of welfare reform delays for the block grant. That has nothing to do with petitions of concern; that is a political hold-up because Sinn Fein will not grasp and deal with the issue, and it is going to cost the entire Northern Ireland electorate, ratepayers and taxpayers a lot of money if it does not. So I do not think that petitions of concern are primarily the issue here.
What seems to be at the root of the proposal by the hon. Member for Foyle is that some kind of abuse is happening. He spoke about when petitions of concern should be used and so on, although that is not qualified in the Belfast agreement. What happens when we consider other elements, such as cross-community voting? He has not in any way sought to amend that—indeed, no party has. If proposals were to be made about that, they should be discussed within the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, and the parties in Northern Ireland should come up with their own suggestions, solutions and proposals.
I recall a famous day when I was in the Assembly and those processes of cross-community voting were abused—a horse and carriage was driven through the powers of designation. The Alliance party previously had been designated as “other”—neither Unionist nor nationalist—and has remained “other” for every other vote and occasion since. However, on this occasion it was persuaded to become, in the words of its now leader,
“the back end of a pantomime horse”—
that is how he described it—by designating the party as “Unionist”. Why was that done? It was done to ensure that then deputy leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party, the hon. Gentleman’s party, could remain as Deputy First Minister when he had actually resigned. The proposal was introduced whereby the Assembly had to accept the resignation for it to become valid. There was a total abuse of the rules and of the purposes for which they were introduced. This has never been done since because people were appalled by it, yet reference is never made to it.
Mr Robathan
That was my understanding. I have just taken advice from those in the Box and they agree, so I think we are pretty sure that that is the case.
Lady Hermon
Will the Minister kindly give me some advice? A large number of delightful gentlemen and ladies in my constituency are members of the Northern Ireland Conservatives. Should they follow this Bill, which applies only to Northern Ireland, or should they follow the example set by the Conservative party in the rest of the United Kingdom and make all their large donors and donations transparent, open and public, rather than keeping them secret?
Mr Robathan
I am not entirely clear what the hon. Lady is suggesting. The Bill will bring things in Northern Ireland to the same level as in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Lady Hermon
I am very pleased to see the Minister at the Dispatch Box this evening, but if the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland had been here she would, of course, have quite rightly reminded the House that Northern Ireland has become such a normal place that it could host the G8 summit in Fermanagh successfully and could host the world police and fire games. No matter how normal Northern Ireland has become, however, for some reason this Bill will preserve the anonymity of and secrecy about donations to political parties in Northern Ireland. That, of course, is not the policy in the rest of the United Kingdom, where the Conservative party supports transparency. Will the Minister take this opportunity to urge his sisters and brothers in the Northern Ireland Conservative party to make their donations public?
Mr Robathan
As of the end of January, they will all be public, as no anonymity will go beyond that—
Mr Robathan
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I should like to begin by thanking my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), who was in the Chamber earlier, for his work in preparing this Bill and steering it through the House. My task today has been greatly eased by the work that he has done in explaining the contents of the Bill to the House. I should also like to thank speakers from all parts of the House—from the four parties of Northern Ireland represented in the Chamber today—for their constructive contributions to debates on the Bill. [Interruption.] Three parties and an independent, I am sorry. I have looked carefully at the earlier debates, and I think the House has done an excellent job on the Bill. While we have not always agreed on amendments, there has been a great deal of consensus on much of its contents.
As many hon. Members have noted, this is not a Bill that makes radical changes to the architecture of government in Northern Ireland. It has been described variously as a “tapas Bill”, a “portmanteau Bill”, and a “bouillabaisse Bill”. The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), in his inimitable way, has even suggested that some would see it as a “bits and pieces” Bill. I welcome that sort of Bill, because I would describe it as a Bill for more normal times. In the past, Northern Ireland Bills have made fundamental changes to government in Northern Ireland, or have been introduced in response to political crises. This Bill supports the development of the devolved institutions. The emphasis now has to be not on further radical institutional departures, but on delivery—chiefly delivery by the institutions in Northern Ireland, but with our support—on reducing community division and on economic renewal. That is the keystone of our approach to Northern Ireland.
If I may be allowed a personal note, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am newly arrived back in Northern Ireland, although as some hon. Members will know, I spent time in an earlier incarnation there. Indeed, I spent the best part of a year in west Belfast, defending, as I saw it, people of the community of Northern Ireland, whether they were from a nationalist, Unionist, Protestant or Catholic background—I was defending them all—against the scourge of terrorism, and I am proud of having done so.
In my view of the past, and in my hopes for Northern Ireland’s constitutional future, I, too, have a past, shaped by my experience, which has shaped my views. For now, my aim is to work with all the politicians in the Northern Ireland Executive to help them to deliver the benefits to which the agreements have opened the way. The Bill is consistent with that approach. It clears the decks of a number of relatively small, but important, matters, to smooth the way for better delivery aimed at Northern Ireland’s future peace and prosperity. The changes that the Bill makes are not radical, but they are important. Northern Ireland is now moving in the right direction.
Lady Hermon
I am very flattered indeed that the Minister should regard me as a party in my own right. I am an independent Member but it is always lovely to be unanimous with myself.
The Minister will know that a key provision of the Bill is to move the scheduled election date for the Northern Ireland Assembly. By statute, the Assembly should be elected every four years, but that term has been extended. Will he kindly give a guarantee to the people of Northern Ireland that the House regards that as a rarity? In fact, when there is a statutory lifetime of a devolved Assembly that should be changed very rarely indeed.
Mr Robathan
I am delighted that the hon. Lady is unanimous with herself. I did not mean to portray her as a party, but rather as an individual independent.
On the substantive issue, as an historian I remember the Septennial Act 1715, which extended the life of the Westminster Parliament and was rightly disparaged over the years. Extending the life of any assembly or Parliament should be done with great care and only in exceptional circumstances. I, like the hon. Lady, am a democrat and I do not think we should go that way, but on this occasion there is general consensus that that is probably the right way forward.
It would have been inconceivable a decade ago to consider hosting world leaders in Northern Ireland for the G8 summit. I remember that when the Prime Minister announced it, some people said, “That’s a bit dodgy,” but it worked extremely well and I pay tribute to the people of Northern Ireland, who made it such a successful G8 summit. It would have been inconceivable a decade ago to present the Turner prize in Northern Ireland. It would have been inconceivable that hundreds of thousands of visitors would travel to Northern Ireland for events like the world police and fire games this summer.
The passing of this Bill through the House marks a further step towards normalisation for Northern Ireland. This is the first Bill since the imposition of direct rule in 1972 which has not been enacted in haste, as a result of a political crisis or to implement a political agreement. Instead, it has been subject to public consultation, pre-legislative scrutiny and thorough scrutiny following the usual timetable in this House. It is something to celebrate that we are now able to consider matters thoroughly and without the urgency that has been a feature of previous Bills, and although I have attended only this sitting on the Bill, I might say that we have been able to discuss it with good humour, which is also important. I commend the Bill to the House.
Northern Ireland
Lady Hermon Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Donaldson
I thank my hon. Friend for those words. I pay tribute to the way in which he has represented people in Northern Ireland over many years. The personal cost that he and his family have borne for that representation is often overlooked. He is absolutely correct.
We cannot equivocate on this matter. The finger would be pointed in our direction if we sought to justify an act of terrorism by one paramilitary organisation in Northern Ireland while condemning the same kind of action by another paramilitary organisation. The two bombers whom Sinn Fein commemorated in Castlederg were transporting a bomb that was designed to murder innocent people in a country town. The people whom they condemned in Omagh on the same day were doing the same thing: they transported a bomb into the heart of a town in the same county of Tyrone and it was designed to murder innocent people. What happened in Castlederg and what happened in Omagh must be condemned equally. It is time that Sinn Fein grew up and recognised that wrong is wrong, no matter who the perpetrator. There can be no rewriting of the history of the troubles in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, particularly given that I was a few minutes late for the debate, for which I apologise to all Members. I invite him to confirm to the House, as I am sure he will do gladly, that his party leader, who serves the entire community in Northern Ireland as First Minister, has brought those criticisms of Sinn Fein’s behaviour to the attention of his Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness. I would like that assurance.
Mr Donaldson
I know that the hon. Lady takes a keen interest in all these matters. I confirm to the House that our party leader, the First Minister, Peter Robinson, has on numerous occasions brought to the attention of the Deputy First Minister the inconsistency and double standards adopted by Sinn Fein in these matters, and the damage that that does to the building of community relations and the development of reconciliation in Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein needs to address this issue.
We will not stand for a process that seeks to paint the forces of the state as the bad guys and the terrorists as the good guys. I remind the House that the Sutton index, which tabulates and records all the deaths associated with the troubles in Northern Ireland, is very clear that of the 3,531 deaths recorded to date, the Army was responsible for 297. Many of those were entirely lawful and legitimate, and were carried out by soldiers acting in the course of their duty to protect human life. The Ulster Defence Regiment, in which I was proud to serve, was responsible for eight deaths. When one hears the attacks that are made against the integrity, valour and sacrifice of the Ulster Defence Regiment, one would think that it was responsible for many more. I reiterate that those deaths were the result of soldiers acting in the course of duty. The Royal Ulster Constabulary, which is also demonised at times by Irish republicans, was responsible for 55 deaths. Interestingly, the Garda, the Irish police, were responsible for four deaths and the Irish army for one.
Let us look at the record of the paramilitary organisations. On the republican side, the Irish National Liberation Army and the Irish People’s Liberation Organisation, which were part of the same grouping, were responsible for 135 deaths and the Provisional IRA was responsible for 1,707 deaths. The Ulster Defence Association and the Ulster Freedom Fighters were responsible for 260 deaths, and the Ulster Volunteer Force was responsible for 430 deaths.
Let me say that every death associated with the troubles in Northern Ireland is regrettable. I do not seek, in any sense, to diminish the sense of loss that people feel when they lose someone.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I thank the Democratic Unionist party for giving the House the opportunity to discuss matters of such great significance not only for Northern Ireland but for the whole United Kingdom. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) on a passionate and moving speech on Northern Ireland’s troubled past.
As the right hon. Gentleman reminded the House, and as we heard in Prime Minister’s questions, the debate coincides with the anniversary of one of the most appalling atrocities of Northern Ireland’s past: the Shankill bomb, which had the tragic consequences set out by the right hon. Gentleman. In the days following the attack, my predecessor as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my noble Friend Lord Mayhew, spoke in the House of the revulsion that people felt at such a hideous and atrocious attack on people going about their business on that Saturday morning 20 years ago.
I echo those sentiments today, and repeat the long-standing position of this and previous Governments that politically motivated violence, from wherever it came, was never justified. The Government will not condone attempts to glorify or legitimise acts of terrorism. We will never treat the men and women of the police and the Army who acted with such courage and self-sacrifice in upholding the rule of law as equivalent to those who used terrorism to try to further their political ends.
My noble Friend Lord Mayhew, in concluding his statement to the House on the Shankill bomb, reaffirmed:
“In this democracy, it is only through dialogue—dialogue between those who unequivocally reject the use or threat of violence—that the foundation will in the end be found for a fair and hence a lasting peace.”—[Official Report, 25 October 1993; Vol. 230, c. 578.]
Thankfully, over the ensuing years, that dialogue did go forward, beginning with the 1993 Downing street declaration and continuing with the 1998 Belfast agreement and its successors, and the basis was found for the relative peace and stability that Northern Ireland enjoys today.
Twenty years on from the Shankill bomb, Northern Ireland has its own inclusive, devolved Administration. Whatever the imperfections of the devolved institutions, they are a vast improvement on what went before. Relations within these islands—both between north and south, and between London and Dublin—have never been stronger, with both Governments determined to work closely together on the economic and other challenges our two countries face. The main paramilitary campaigns that led to more than 3,500 lost lives and such widespread and tragic suffering, which we have heard about this afternoon, have come to an end. Lethal though they are, the people who continue to seek to pursue their aims through violence are small in number and enjoy almost no public support whatever.
The transformation that has taken place over the past 15 years is a great testimony to the leadership and courage shown by so many of Northern Ireland’s political leaders, a number of whom are in the Chamber. It also vividly demonstrates the power of dialogue as a means of dealing with problems that were previously viewed as intractable. Yet, for all the progress, there is no doubt that the legacy of the past continues to cast a shadow and have an impact on today’s Northern Ireland. I see that whenever I meet victims of terrorism, as I did, for example, in Castlederg just a few weeks ago. I also see it when I meet those who believe that the unjustified actions of the state robbed them of their loved ones. All of them have highly personal tales of tragedy, and it is impossible not to be moved by their stories.
It is therefore not surprising that there are calls from a number of quarters in Northern Ireland for a mechanism or process to be initiated to deal with the past and grapple with the questions outlined today by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. I agree with him that, in taking forward that process, we must put the needs of victims at its heart. He is right to look at the options that involve enabling victims to tell their stories, so that the facts of what happened to them are on record and never forgotten.
Numerous attempts have been made in the 15 years since the 1998 agreement to come up with a so-called overarching process on the past. In 2008, the previous Government established the consultative group on the past under the chairmanship of Lord Eames and Denis Bradley. On coming to office, my predecessor as Secretary of State published a summary of the responses to Eames-Bradley and embarked on an extensive round of meetings with Northern Ireland’s political parties, victims groups and other interested bodies. Since becoming Secretary of State just over a year ago, I have had wide-ranging discussions on the subject both within Northern Ireland and with the Irish Government.
However, so far, none of the initiatives by either the previous Government or the current one has succeeded in establishing a consensus on how best to take things forward. That is certainly not to say that nothing is happening on the past—far from it. As well as a host of local and oral history projects and the tireless work by the voluntary sector in supporting victims, there are initiatives such as the CAIN archive at the university of Ulster, the renowned collection at the Linen Hall library, and thousands of hours of historical footage held by the BBC and Ulster Television. In fact, given the wealth of archive material available, Northern Ireland’s troubles are probably one of the most comprehensively recorded and documented periods in history.
For our part, the Government are committed to accelerating the release of state papers, so we are moving from the 30-year rule to a 20-year rule, although this will always have to be done in a way that is sensitive to the article 2 rights of all parties and to national security considerations. We are working with the Irish Government on the decade of centenaries that is now under way. Both Governments want to use the forthcoming anniversaries to promote mutual respect and understanding between different traditions, and to prevent them from being exploited by those intent on causing division and conflict. We continue to support the work being done in the devolved sphere, for example by the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, the Historical Enquiries Team and the Victims’ Commissioner. The Government have been fully prepared to apologise where the state has failed to uphold the highest standards of conduct. That has been done in the cases of Claudy, Patrick Finucane and, of course, Bloody Sunday, where the Prime Minister acknowledged to the House in the frankest of terms that what happened that day in Londonderry in 1972 was “unjustified and unjustifiable.”
There is no doubt that some want a broader initiative, a so-called “overarching” process, and they have asked the Government to deliver it. I understand that, and of course the UK Government are prepared to play their part in dealing with legacy issues, but I am also very clear that we do not own the past. The reality is that for any process to succeed it must command a substantial consensus among the Northern Ireland political parties and across the wider community.
The Government strongly welcome the initiative by the five parties in the Northern Ireland Executive to begin to take local ownership of this issue through the establishment of the Richard Haass working group on flags, emblems, parades and the past. While not formally part of this group, the Government are fully engaged with it. I and my officials have had a number of meetings and discussions with Dr Haass and his team, and I am seeing him again next week. Last Thursday, Dr Haass had talks in Downing street where he met the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, who gave their full backing to the crucial task that Dr Haass has undertaken. It is clear that the Haass talks are dealing with some of Northern Ireland’s most difficult and long-standing fault lines and there is no guarantee of success, but I believe that there is a genuine willingness on the part of Northern Ireland’s political leadership to make progress. From my discussions with Dr Haass, I believe that there is no better person to help achieve that. With 12 months of protests and tensions around flags and parades, it is essential that progress is made.
While the focus of today’s short debate is about dealing with the past, it is also important that we do not lose sight of the overriding need to build a better future for everyone in Northern Ireland. That is particularly true on the economy and on building a shared society that is no longer blighted by the sectarian divisions that have caused so much damage over the years, both areas on which the Government are working very closely with the Executive. As I have made clear, progress cannot await the outcome of the Haass talks; it is vital that momentum is maintained. On the economy, there are now clear signs that, like the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland is turning a corner, with business activity growing, unemployment falling, the property market stabilising and construction finally starting to pick up after the disastrous crash experienced under the previous Government.
There is much more that needs to be done, which is why the Government and the Executive are pressing ahead with implementing the economic package we signed in Downing street in June, and on which we jointly published an update a fortnight ago. As part of that package, the Prime Minister and I attended a highly successful international investment conference at Titanic Belfast, where senior business figures from across the world were shown just what a great place Northern Ireland is in which to invest and to grow a business.
On addressing community divisions, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I have repeatedly pressed for progress. We therefore warmly welcomed the community relations initiative by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, with the publication of “Together: Building a United Community” in May. It was a significant moment last week when the First Minister of Northern Ireland broke new ground for a Unionist leader in addressing a Gaelic Athletic Association event. As the First Minister himself pointed out, this would have been unthinkable a few years ago and is another sign that Northern Ireland is moving forward.
In conclusion, I would like to echo the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley in paying a warm tribute to the members of the police, the prison service and the armed forces who served with such distinction, valour and courage in defending and upholding the rule of law, defending democracy and protecting the community in Northern Ireland. This is a welcome opportunity to reiterate the thanks of this House for all they did during the troubles and to reiterate the thanks to all those who currently defend the community in the security forces in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for allowing me to intervene. I have waited patiently for the Secretary of State to put on record the Government’s deep and sincere appreciation of the members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross—not just within the general title of the police, but the RUC George Cross, which made an enormous sacrifice: 302 murdered police officers, men and women. Too often, this House lets the opportunity go past without putting on the record the debt of gratitude we owe the RUC, particularly the families of those who stood by them and those who did not come home.
Mrs Villiers
I am only too happy to put on record once again the support and tribute to the members of the RUC and their families, who suffered greatly at the hands of terrorists during the troubles, and to their successors in the PSNI, who even today are subject to repeated targeting by the terrorists who still operate in Northern Ireland.
Mr Lewis
After 14 days in my post, I can say that any violence, from whatever source, is to be condemned unequivocally. I would regard anyone who is a victim of violence, intimidation or terror as a victim. If we want to get into a detailed debate about this, I would want some more time in my post so that I can carry out further work and engagement—I have tried to respond as much as I can to my hon. Friend. A big and important part of my job is to spend time with victims and their families to get a sense of how they feel and what the definition of justice means to them. In different circumstances, there can be a different response, so we need to be sensitive to that fact.
A second important principle is that any process must recognise that significant progress can be made without trying to achieve a shared narrative about the past, as achieving such a narrative would be an unrealistic expectation. What is of paramount importance is that nationalists and Unionists learn to respect the equal status and legitimacy of their fellow citizens now and in the future.
The third principle is that while it is, of course, right to consider all options about addressing responsibility and accountability for past wrongdoing, it is also important to say that any process must recognise the rights and responsibilities defined by the European convention on human rights. The convention is clear. It stresses the importance of ensuring justice, truth and reparation in response to violation and abuses, which would require a deep and sensitive understanding of what that would mean for the wishes and expectations of victims and their families.
I have always believed that the public expect politicians, on the whole, to focus primarily on change and the future. However, it is clear that part of securing a better future for Northern Ireland requires us to deal with the unresolved issues of the past, which is why the Haass talks are so important and cannot be allowed either to fail, or to arrive at superficial solutions. Haass has the potential to achieve meaningful transformational change if all political parties, and the UK and Irish Governments, show leadership and seek common ground in the interests of all people of Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he, his party leader and his party will make a submission to the Haass talks, albeit he has been in his post for only a short period? Will he kindly publish any such submission so that rest of us can be au fait with the requirements of the Labour party?
Mr Lewis
I am delighted to give the hon. Lady that assurance. I will be meeting Richard Haass next week, or the week after, and we will certainly make any written representations public and ensure that hon. Members are aware of our position.
Just as it would be wrong to minimise the importance of the past, it would be equally mistaken to suggest that that, in itself, is Northern Ireland’s biggest challenge. The greatest challenge is the corrosive cycle of poor educational attainment, worklessness and intergenerational deprivation that continues to afflict far too many families and communities in Northern Ireland. That lethal cocktail has the potential to be the breeding ground for extremists, and for perpetual conflict and instability. Although those issues are primarily the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive, the UK Government have a key role to play in pursuing an active industrial strategy to generate jobs and growth, while reflecting on the negative impact that pernicious policies such as the bedroom tax have on the most vulnerable and also would have on Northern Ireland’s block grant.
This year’s disturbances should teach us a number of lessons, one of which is undoubtedly that unfinished business remains in relation to the past. However, we must also reflect on the impact of social and economic inequality, which cannot be allowed to prevail if peace in Northern Ireland is to move from a political accommodation to a society built on genuine reconciliation and mutual respect.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I thank the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and his party colleagues for introducing this important debate. As they know, I am half-Northern Irish and have made many visits to Northern Ireland ever since I was a child—since the beginning of the troubles. I share the right hon. Gentleman’s profound belief that we have to manage the past properly and fairly if we are ever to have a positive future. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who made a very thoughtful contribution. I agree that we must try to move forward in a much more inclusive way if Northern Ireland is ever to have the wonderful, prosperous and peaceful future that all of us in the House wish for it.
Having said that, in Northern Ireland the past is always a challenge. Although I am only half-Northern Irish—and half-English—I know that it is an incredibly delicate area to tread in, and I also know that that is one of the reasons why there have been so many piecemeal attempts to try to get on top of the past. In some ways, I think that Northern Ireland has succeeded. When compared with the situation of only a few years ago, the recent progress has been substantial, but the complexity of Northern Ireland, its past and the troubles cannot be resolved easily or simply, because otherwise that would have happened many years ago under the previous Government. Strong movement in one direction tends greatly to upset people on the other side of the divide.
A good example of that, to which the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) alluded, was the Eames-Bradley report, which I thought was outstanding, detailed and fair. It tried honourably to address the immense complexity of the sectarian divide, but we all know the result: it was shelved, ostensibly for one reason. My personal view is that that reason was used as an excuse to shelve the whole report, which was disappointing. However, the report is still in a drawer somewhere in Whitehall, so perhaps one day we can bring it out, re-evaluate it and use much of its learning, because the Eames-Bradley report was a good way forward.
On the one hand, I am optimistic about the Haass initiative, which I think is a good, positive step. On the other hand, however, I am slightly depressed about it because Dr Richard Haass’s consultation has come about because we have yet again reached an impasse. My hon. Friends from Northern Ireland will know that “impasse” is a French word, and impasse may be a common occurrence in Northern Ireland, for the reasons that we know. I am glad that the five political parties have endorsed and supported Haass. After he has spoken to people, including the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State, but more importantly the political parties in Northern Ireland, and his group presents some recommendations, I am pretty sure that not everyone will agree with all of them, as the day when that is not the case in Northern Ireland will be the day the Liberals sweep to sunny uplands and have a majority in government. That will take a few years yet; I like to be an optimist—I am a Liberal. However, I hope that when Haass’s recommendations come forward, we will engage with them properly and seriously.
Lady Hermon
First, may I congratulate our newest Deputy Speaker? I am delighted to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.
May I double-check something with the hon. Gentleman, as I did with the shadow Secretary of State? Will the Lib Dem wing of the coalition Government make a separate submission to the Haass talks? If so, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that it will be published?
Stephen Lloyd
The hon. Lady raises an important point. The honest truth is that we are still considering the matter, but if we make a separate submission, it certainly will be made public. I sound as though I might be obfuscating only because I am not entirely sure that, separate from our colleagues in the coalition Government, we would have anything productive to say, but I promise her that if we do make a submission, it will be made public.
When we receive the Haass report, I hope and trust that all of us in the House, and particularly in Northern Ireland, will do what is necessary to move forward on key and extremely difficult issues. As I am someone who perhaps is not as steeped in the issues as some hon. Members from Northern Ireland, I imagine that there would be nothing more irritating than for me to pretend that those issues were anything other than challenging and complicated.
I was struck by a recent quote from Amnesty International. I do not always agree with everything that Amnesty says, even though I have been a member for around 30 years. I would, however, like to repeat some comments from Amnesty International so that they will be recorded in Hansard because I think that they sum up the problem. Amnesty International says:
“the piecemeal approach to investigations adopted in Northern Ireland is too diffuse and too incomplete to provide a comprehensive picture of all the violations and abuses that occurred during the decades of political violence. Inherent limitations within the mechanisms…have meant that much of the truth remains hidden while those in positions of responsibility have remained shielded. It has also contributed to a failure to develop a shared public understanding and recognition of the abuses committed by all sides.”
Without in any way taking sides, I believe that that is a true statement. From my relatives and my relatives’ friends from both sides of the divide, I know well that in the Northern Ireland that I love so much, there is often a lack of understanding and appreciation, and a sense of “more evil was done to us than to you”. As someone who has one foot in Northern Ireland and one foot outside, my observation is that both sides in their own way are right and both sides in their own way are wrong. That is the tragedy, and that is why I tread delicately but sincerely. I treat with profound seriousness the shadow role on Northern Ireland that I have in my party. I profoundly respect the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley and his party for calling this debate as it has demonstrated the strengths and weaknesses of the whole challenge in Northern Ireland.
I hope that the Haass report will move matters forward. As an observer, I think that the impasse has hit the Executive—and has done so for a while. It may equally have affected our own Government. We have got stuck, and that is unfortunate, but I hope that the Haass consultation, which will see him and his group talking to all the key individuals and parties in Northern Ireland, will lead to progress.
Finally, I pay tribute to the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The RUC and the security services had an incredibly difficult role, but they played an incredibly important part in ultimately defeating terrorism. The Royal Ulster Constabulary was not perfect in every way and the security services were not perfect. Mistakes were made and a tiny proportion of people clearly worked in the shadows, but overall, without the bravery of the RUC and the security services, Northern Ireland would have lost to terrorism, and that would have been wrong. Both my uncle and my grandfather were in the RUC, and my uncle survived a couple of assassination attempts. That demonstrates the importance of this debate and the importance of Northern Ireland, because while my uncle and grandfather were Catholic, the paradox is that, on the one hand, the IRA tried to blow them up a couple of times and, on the other hand, a section of the Loyalists would not trust them as far as they could throw them. That sums up the challenges facing us in Northern Ireland.
I hope that a positive and productive debate such as this, and moving forward in the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury outlined, leading towards the Haass discussions, will mean that, within the next few months, Northern Ireland will begin to move forward from the past in a more positive way. It is timely and necessary, and the blockage should come to an end.
Mrs Villiers
Madam Deputy Speaker, I join others in congratulating you on your new role. I also thank all Members for their contributions. It has been a very good and, at times, extremely moving debate, and I echo the praise of the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) for the number of the contributions. We all in the House should pay particular tribute to political representatives and MPs in Northern Ireland who were prepared, courageously, to put their heads above the parapet during the troubles. It is an honour to have them in the House and to hear directly from them, who lived through these events, about their experiences.
A theme that has pervaded the whole debate is our profound sympathy for all those who suffered in Northern Ireland’s troubles. We have heard some desperately sad stories, and I am sure I speak for the whole House in again offering our condolences and sympathies to those who were injured, to those who lost loved ones and to those whose injuries might not be visible or physical, but are none the less deep-seated. It is a privilege to have the opportunity, thanks to the DUP, to debate these matters in the House.
The second thing common to almost every speech was a profound and sincere tribute to the men and women of the armed forces and police, particularly the Ulster Defence Regiment and the RUC, for all they did in upholding the rule of law and protecting the community in Northern Ireland, despite huge personal risk to themselves. Of course, many of them made the ultimate sacrifice.
Too many points were made in the debate for me to cover them in the short time available. The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) expressed his concern about pubic inquiries, and certainly the Government have also expressed their scepticism about public inquiries as a means to deal with the past. In particular, it simply is not possible for each of those 3,500 victims to have their own public inquiry, which means that those we have are uneven and can divide opinion. Several other speakers, including the hon. Member for Vauxhall, raised that potentially uneven approach. She was also concerned about so-called Government neutrality. I can assure her that the Government are not neutral on the Union, but are fully supportive of Northern Ireland’s place within it. It was the previous Government who professed neutrality on the Union.
On the comments from the hon. Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis), yes we had a little episode of non-bipartisanship, but there will always be areas in which the Front Benches work together—that has always been the case—and I welcome his reiteration of that this afternoon. As he said, we have a shared responsibility to do all we can to help Northern Ireland make progress. Crucially, I can provide the warmest of assurances that the Government remain determinedly engaged in Northern Ireland matters, as was seen not least in the Prime Minister’s bringing eight of the world’s most powerful leaders to a summit in County Fermanagh as a means of demonstrating what a fabulous place Northern Ireland is and how much affection he has for it.
Lady Hermon
Picking up on the comments and criticisms made by the shadow Secretary of State, I say very gently to the right hon. Lady that the perception in Northern Ireland is of a polite disengagement by the Government. If 54 police officers had been injured in rioting in Manchester or Birmingham, Cardiff or Bristol during the summer, the Home Secretary would have gone there, and it would have been equally nice and appropriate had she gone to Northern Ireland and said to the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister, “We support you all the way.” That is just one example of what I regard as polite disengagement. Will the Secretary of State address that concern?
Mrs Villiers
I assure the hon. Lady that I was fully engaged throughout this summer. I was in Northern Ireland for much of it, and I kept in close touch with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister because of my grave concerns about what was going on. I assure her that I was the first very publicly to condemn the violence and the attacks on police officers, which were absolutely unacceptable. I will continue to call on all to ensure that they comply with the determinations of the Parades Commission, that they respect the rule of law and that these disgraceful attacks on police officers are not repeated.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the Chairman of the Select Committee, was right to focus on the future. Like other hon. Members, he expressed concern about the parading system and the violence we have seen. He was right to emphasise that hundreds of parades take place in Northern Ireland every year that are entirely peaceful, but it is important to point out that not only were the attacks we saw on police officers unacceptable, but they do huge economic damage to Northern Ireland because of their impact around the world. That is an important reason why I hope we will see a resolution of the current situation in north Belfast. It is a concern to have a protest camp and nightly parades so close to a very volatile interface, and I hope that local conversations can take place to try to find a way to resolve the situation.
The hon. Member for Bury South and my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury made a number of points about the importance of going forward with educational improvements. We heard an exchange about whether integrated education was the way forward. I am sure that all in this House recognise the importance of ensuring that children in Northern Ireland have the chance to learn alongside others, whether that is through shared education or integrated education.
The hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) started his contribution by emphasising that it is vital to learn from the past, and I fully agree with him. Like him, this Government will not accept attempts to rewrite the history of the troubles. As many hon. Members have done today, he called for any process to have the victims of the troubles at its heart.
My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) paid tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) for the excellent work he did as Minister of State. He also told us of the poignant and moving meetings he had with victims, including those of the horrendous Kingsmill massacre. Like others, he paid tribute to the armed forces, doing so as a Member of Parliament for a constituency with a proud naval tradition. The hon. Member for Upper Bann, too, talked about the importance of education and skills in building a successful future in Northern Ireland. I firmly agree with that and I am sure that the Northern Ireland Executive, who have responsibility for education now, do as well.
The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) spoke frankly about his party’s position on naming places after those responsible for previous violence, and it was welcome that he was able to clarify that. I share his call for a move towards a truly reconciled society. I am sure that everyone in the House will agree with calls made by him and by many others for all the political parties to approach the Haass process with the determination to give courageous leadership and to make progress. He also spoke, as others did, about the Eames-Bradley report. That proved quite divisive when it was published, but no doubt Dr Haass and others will seek to look at aspects of that report to see whether any of them are appropriate in terms of the outcome of the work that is undertaken by the Haass process.
My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) was right to focus on the complexity of this issue and the fact that there are no easy answers. It is of grave concern that so many victims are still seeking the truth and still feel that they have not had justice. He also talked about whether lessons could be learned from the Eames-Bradley report as part of the process that is now going forward.
The hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) spoke movingly about his experiences, and I wish to pay tribute to all the work that he has done in Northern Ireland on behalf of his constituents. They could not possibly have a more resolute defender of their interests, and I know that he and his family have personally suffered as a result of the terrorist campaigns in Northern Ireland. This House owes him a great debt of gratitude for all that he has done for his constituents. The hon. Gentleman said that, in his view, there was a need for an apology from the Government of the Republic of Ireland. I hope that he will welcome, as I did, the speech made recently by the Tánaiste, Eamon Gilmore, at the British-Irish Association conference, in which he acknowledged the concerns and the perceptions around the way in which his Government had occasionally approached the troubles. That was a welcome speech, and an important step forward by the Tánaiste.
The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) spoke with great determination and passion, and repudiated any suggestion that the troubles amounted to a just war. He was right to emphasise how important it had been to start this debate with a list of names being read out by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. It is crucial, in this debate and in the Richard Haass process, that we remember that this is about individuals, each with their own story of tragedy. Hearing their names was an entirely appropriate way in which to commence what has been an excellent debate.
We have heard much about the past this afternoon, but a number of people have also called for a determination to move forward and build a better future for Northern Ireland. Much is being done to improve the economy, and important work is under way to address sectarian divisions and build the genuinely united community that we all want to see. The Executive, the political leadership and the people of Northern Ireland all have the full support of the UK Government in taking that important work forward.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House notes the ongoing discussions in Northern Ireland chaired by Dr Richard Haass on a number of important issues including the legacy of the Troubles; recognises the deep sense of loss still felt by the innocent victims of violence and their continuing quest for truth and justice; acknowledges the valour and sacrifice of the men and women who served and continue to serve in the armed forces, the police and the prison service in Northern Ireland; and is resolved to ensure that those who engaged in or supported acts of terrorism will not succeed in rewriting the narrative of this troubled period in Northern Ireland’s history.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lady Hermon Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
I think I can provide the hon. Lady with some reassurance. The lobbying Bill will continue to permit the voluntary sector to campaign on general issues, but if a voluntary organisation seeks to campaign for particular candidates in a general election, it will be asked to account for its finances and spending and will be subject to limits. I think that that is a fair reform.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I urge the Secretary of State, in dealing with the legacy of the past, to ensure that the case of my young constituent Lisa Dorrian is not forgotten. She was murdered and then disappeared by those with loyalist paramilitary connections eight years ago. Her body has never been recovered, her family need closure and she certainly needs a Christian burial.
Mrs Villiers
The hon. Lady is right to raise one of the greatest tragedies of the troubles: people lost their lives, and some families still do not know what happened to their loved ones and still have no body to bury and no funeral to attend. It is a continuing tragedy, and the Government are very supportive of all efforts to try to locate them and get answers for victims, including her constituents.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lady Hermon Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
Will the hon. Lady take this opportunity to confirm that the Electoral Commission for Northern Ireland, which is held in high esteem there, supports her amendments and does not believe that the deadline of 1 January 2014 gives sufficient notice either to political parties or to donors?
Naomi Long
The hon. Lady is correct to say that the Electoral Commission for Northern Ireland supports the amendments and believes that they would be practical in providing adequate support and advice to donors and political parties to make them fully aware of the change by January 2014. No substantive reasons have been given for this move not being able to proceed by 2014. Given all the issues surrounding transparency, and the public concern about the opaque nature of political funding in Northern Ireland, it is important to take this opportunity to make it clear that we want maximum transparency for the public there. We want the kind of transparency that the rest of the United Kingdom already enjoys, but which, for security reasons, we have been unable to enjoy until now.
For me, this is a matter not only of amendments 7 and 8, which I have tabled. I also want to refer to the other amendments in this group. Amendment 2 differs from those amendments, in that it seeks to set in stone the lifting of the veil of secrecy on party political donations in Northern Ireland by October 2014. It would not entirely remove the Government’s ability to extend the period further in an emergency. The Bill could, for example, include an order-making power to ensure that the Government could come back to the House in an emergency and reinstate the existing provisions, but they would need to have a substantive reason for doing so and they would have to bring their argument to the House and gain its support.
I put on record at Second Reading, and I want to do so again today, that this is not about being cavalier or dismissive about the security situation in Northern Ireland. Nor is it about dismissing the potential threat to those who donate to political parties. It is about accepting that that should not automatically, as of right, outweigh the public’s right to scrutinise donations to political parties. If we lift the bar and allow donations over £7,500 to be published, in line with the rest of the United Kingdom, people will factor in that decision when deciding whether to make such donations. Given that all the political parties have said that they get very few donations of that size, the proposal would not impede the normal democratic fundraising capacity of the Northern Ireland parties.
It is also important to confidence and trust that the public should believe that their elected representatives are not available for sale. The only way to convince people of that is to maximise transparency around these issues. No political party can defend itself against that charge while the secrecy continues to exist, because the information will not be in the public domain and available for scrutiny. My own party reveals such information voluntarily, and we encourage other parties to do so, but I believe that as of October 2014, we should be moving towards a more normalised situation for donations. The onus should be on donors to decide whether they wish to donate, knowing that their donation will be made public.
I shall listen carefully to what my colleagues in the Democratic Unionist party say about amendment 6. My understanding is that their intention is to remove entirely the possibility of donations to the Northern Ireland political parties from the Republic of Ireland. I cannot support that, and I want to explain why. Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances are reflected not only in our constitutional arrangements but in the fact that some parties operate on a Northern Ireland-only basis, some on a UK-wide basis and others on an all-Ireland basis. Taking that into account, I believe that it would be unfair completely to close the door to donations from the Republic of Ireland. A situation could be created in which parties that operate on an all-UK basis could receive donations from Dundee, Devon and Derby, while those that operate on a Northern Ireland-only basis would be unable to receive donations from Donegal or Dublin. I think that would be unfair.
I have a degree of sympathy, however, with the concerns expressed by the Democratic Unionist party on Second Reading about the potential for overseas donors to put money through the Republic of Ireland, essentially circumventing the rules on foreign donations. Indeed, I supported the Select Committee recommendation in paragraph 44 where we set out our concerns about that. Although we stopped short of recommending that all donations from the Republic of Ireland be stopped, we did recommend that the Secretary of State should seek to include provisions in the Bill that would close that particular loophole. I would be happy to support measures to do that, but I do not feel that it would be just or right to support measures that would simply put a bar on any donations from the Irish Republic, even if those people are resident and are donating to a party that operates on a Northern Ireland basis. That would not be fair or just.
I encourage all Members to consider amendments 7 and 8. Some might not agree with amendment 2, but I do not believe that the hands of the Secretary of State are in any way tied with respect to security judgments. I believe that amendments 7 and 8 will ensure clarity for donors, who will know that any money above £7,500 donated from January onwards will be subject to publication at whatever point in the future the Secretary of State decides that it is safe to declare the information. Clarity will be provided for members of the public who will know that we are moving in the direction of full transparency, in the same way as any other region of the UK. This draws the line under what has been a very tortured issue for a very long time. I hope that when the opportunity arises, Members will vote in favour of increasing transparency on these matters.
Nigel Mills
Absolutely, and if this amendment were passed, a donor would still have 14 months in which to make any donations they wanted to make and have them not made public. I suspect that would get the political parties through the 2015 general election, and that if they planned things carefully, they could get enough funds to get through the 2016 Assembly elections, so there would be no detriment to party funding until perhaps the 2020 elections in terms of the need for very large donations. That would give everyone a large amount of time to adjust to these new transparency rules.
I therefore ask the Minister to set out why the Government are apparently reluctant to go down this route even for the largest donations. I note that in their response to the Select Committee they said they would carefully consider any restrictions on transparency after October 2014. It would be useful to understand what their criteria are for making that decision. I accept, however, that the Minister cannot, and should not, tell us the specific intelligence he has about security threats.
Northern Ireland Members obviously understand Northern Ireland politics better than I do, but it is my understanding that the details of anyone who nominates a candidate or who stands for a council are published. If we have not had any evidence that there is a real security threat to people participating in those aspects of Northern Ireland democracy, why do we have this threat in respect of donations? It is worth asking how credible it is to have those two opposing situations, whereby it is safe to nominate or stand but it is not safe to donate money. I am not sure whether there is a very convincing argument for that.
Lady Hermon
Like the hon. Gentleman, I have the privilege of sitting on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. When we took evidence on this issue, we took evidence privately and in public session, and we took it in written as well as oral form. Did we ever receive evidence from a donor to any political party or to any independent Member of the Parliament that they felt at risk of being targeted by terrorists or anyone else for donating?
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I am pleased to be able to take part in this debate. First, I wish to discuss amendment 6, which stands in my name and that of my colleagues, and then I will comment on the other proposals in the group. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) put a legitimate point of view, one that had support in the Select Committee but has not found favour with the Government, so I look forward to hearing the Minister speak on it. It is also worth making the general comment in relation to all these matters that the Bill did go through pre-legislative scrutiny. That is not to say that it cannot be improved or that we cannot debate it and tease out the various issues—that is what we are here to do. The hon. Gentleman referred to recent programmes and, of course, we also have to bear in mind the recent “Panorama” programme and The Sunday Times exposure of issues relating to Back-Benchers here and members of the other place. All these issues are very pertinent and need to be examined, too.
Our amendment 6 would repeal section 71B of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Political parties in Northern Ireland currently follow different rules from parties in Great Britain. Many people in the UK—UK taxpayers and voters—might be slightly surprised that a different set of rules applies on donations to people who can be elected to the House of Commons to make laws for the whole of the United Kingdom if they are in political parties in one part of the UK. The 2000 Act was passed to prevent foreign influence through donations being made without transparency, openness and all the rest of it and to ensure that donations were made by legitimate donors—donors who reside in the United Kingdom or who have locus in the UK, because, after all, the political parties to which they are donating are making laws for the UK. By logic, therefore, the same rules should apply across the UK to all the political parties represented in this House. That is what the amendment seeks to achieve.
In Great Britain, donations are permissible only from individuals or bodies in the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland parties, exceptionally, are allowed also to receive donations and loans from the Irish Republic. The amendment would end that exemption and put Northern Ireland on the same footing as the rest of the United Kingdom. One argument that is made over and over by many people, quite validly and properly, is that Northern Ireland should be brought into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. Usually, that argument is applied to the question of transparency and the revelation of the identities of donors—I shall come to that in a short while—but it never seems to be raised in the context of this glaring loophole, which preserves a special position, effectively for the benefit of nationalist parties. Let us be frank: that is why it was brought in originally and why it was lobbied for.
I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and I understand where she is coming from. I understand the argument she advanced and the way in which she advanced it. Her concern was more to do with the loophole whereby donations come not so much from citizens or organisations in the Republic but from individuals or companies who are used as a conduit for political donations to parties in Northern Ireland from outside the Irish Republic—from the United States, or wherever. That is the real problem. It was identified by the Select Committee, which recommended that the loophole be closed.
The purpose of our amendment is to highlight that glaring loophole. We cannot have an exception that allows donations to come in from abroad and thereby allows them to come in from even further afield than intended—from America, Australia, Canada, other parts of the European Union or wherever else. That issue must be addressed. It is entirely unacceptable, when we talk about transparency, openness and all the rest of it, that in Northern Ireland parties that are represented or may be represented in this House could be funded by bodies, individuals and organisations in other parts of the world yet we would never be able to find out because of this exception.
I appeal to the Minister to consider the issue, to consider very carefully not just what we have said but what the Select Committee has said and to take the matter away and see how the loophole can be closed. If we are trying to move forward and bring the law on donations gradually and cautiously into line, we must do it across the board, not just on the issue addressed by clause 1 and the other amendments but on the issue we are raising through amendment 6.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I need some assistance in making up my mind about whether to support the amendment, so I would like him to explain precisely the remit of section 71B of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act, as amended. Does his amendment affect only donations from Irish citizens outside the United Kingdom, or would it apply equally to those who believe themselves to be Irish citizens living in the UK, and who might even wish to donate to the Democratic Unionist party?
Mr Dodds
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about data that are held and not meant for publication yet somehow find themselves in the public domain, and we can all cite many examples of that happening in recent years. There are, of course, criminal sanctions, but that does not necessarily guarantee anything. The fact of the matter is that it depends on the good will and good faith of those who safeguard such information, and on proper security to ensure that what Parliament intends and enacts is followed through. The hon. Gentleman raises an important point that rightly concerns people, and the Government may wish to comment on what steps they are taking to ensure that information does not enter the public domain when people have been guaranteed that it will not.
Returning to amendment 2, which would remove the discretion, we put on record our concerns that donors to political parties in the rest of the UK do not face the same problems as donors to parties in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) pointed out the tremendous progress that has been made, which we all recognise, value and celebrate, but there is still a serious threat in terms of terrorism and public safety. Not long ago there was the murder of a prison officer, David Black, and there have been other serious incidents, disruptions and bomb attacks. We operate in a different climate—it is much improved and better than it used to be—but most people accept that we are still in a situation in which caution must be exercised.
As we move forward to a more normalised society, we hope that the threat from dissidents and others will recede and continue to be dealt with. As we put the violent past behind us, it is right and proper that we move towards a system of donations and loans, as employed in the rest of the United Kingdom, and we support the normalisation process for political donations as outlined in the Bill.
Lady Hermon
I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for taking so many interventions. Will he kindly reflect on a question that I asked on Second Reading? While we all accept and do not query the dreadful times that all of us of a certain age have lived through in Northern Ireland, we are now in more peaceful times. Will the right hon. Gentleman quantify in numbers—this will be helpful for people at home watching the debate—the threats to current donors to the Democratic Unionist party? Is it in half dozens or dozens, and can he quantify that in changed circumstances and—thank the Lord—quieter times in Northern Ireland?
Mr Dodds
A point was made earlier—I do not know whether it came from the hon. Lady or someone else—that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee did not hear from a donor saying how afraid they would be if their identity was made public. It is not easy for people in that position, and there will not be lots of people coming forward and making their position clear. By necessity, some of these things will be done with the least publicity and information as possible from the donor’s point of view, because they want to protect their anonymity.
The Select Committee heard from the First Minister—I have already cited his evidence—from David McClarty, an independent MLA, and from representatives of my party, the Social Democratic and Labour party, the UK Independence party, which of course is becoming a major force in the rest of the United Kingdom, although not particularly in Northern Ireland, and the Ulster Unionist party. They all urged the Secretary of State to exercise caution when modifying the current confidentiality arrangements for political loans and donations in Northern Ireland. As the Committee’s report states:
“They argued that the security situation in Northern Ireland presented a barrier to implementing the same transparency regime as Great Britain because donors remained at risk of violence and intimidation”.
Ms Ritchie
Thank you, Mr Hollobone. I wish to speak to amendments 7 and 8 and amendment 6.
Given that we are living in a more normal society in Northern Ireland—although the degree of that normality varies, and we have seen it ebb and flow over the last few months—I believe that the anonymity relating to donations could now be lifted, not necessarily next October but perhaps at an earlier date, as suggested by the hon. Members for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills).
I cannot disagree with what I understand to be the intended purpose of the amendments. It is important that, in trying to achieve a greater level of political maturity and in the practice of politics generally, we strive to achieve the highest standards of public life, whether we are serving our constituents or executing our parliamentary duties here at Westminster and in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The public ask us to serve them, and the duty to serve them is in our contract with them when we are elected as members of political parties. The electorate rightly demand from us the highest standards in public office in the execution of that contract, and it is important for the guiding principles of transparency, openness and accountability to constitute not just the pillars on which our fledgling democracy is built, but the rules that govern donations to political parties serving us in public life and wider civic society.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I acknowledge that there may be concern about security issues—concern that was expressed by the leader of our party when he gave evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. There is a need to protect donors, because some of them—and some parties —fear that they may might be at risk from a terrorist or other threat. However, if we have learned anything over the last few months—and over the last few days, when television programmes have contained revelations about alleged political interference in certain bodies—it is the importance of giving some form of resilience and confidence to the public.
In that respect, I do not have any problem in supporting the amendments of the hon. Member for Belfast East, although it will not come as a surprise to learn that I do not support the amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) because like my party colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I believe we live in the island of Ireland. I believe that fervently as a democratic Irish nationalist, but notwithstanding that, I represent a border constituency, and many people at the southern end of it daily travel to places of employment in County Louth. They pay taxes sometimes in both the north of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They also have their children educated in the north, and they buy goods and services in the south and the north. There is that exchange of ideas and people. They view people in County Louth, albeit it is in the south of Ireland—in the Republic of Ireland, a different jurisdiction—as their neighbours and friends. In those circumstances, with that exchange of people and ideas, I cannot support this amendment. I am sure DUP Members will perfectly understand where the parliamentary party of the SDLP is coming from in that respect.
I also believe that we need to see progress on a whole range of matters, however. Mr Haass has been appointed today to chair the all-party talks on flags and emblems and reconciliation. It is important that we move towards that in the next phase of devolution so we can see the full implementation of the Good Friday agreement, including support from the British Government for a Bill of Rights that is dedicated to the needs and requirements of Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
May we clarify one little point of conflict between the hon. Lady and her colleague, the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)? He supported the thrust of the amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), but he suggested that January was a bit too soon and perhaps the tax year would be better. However, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) has just said she supports the amendments of the hon. Member for Belfast East, so is it January, or is it March and the tax year, or has the hon. Member for South Down got further ideas?
Ms Ritchie
It was my very clear understanding that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle said that if the hon. Member for Belfast East were to press her amendment to a Division, he, like me, would support her—although I think I might be a Teller in such a Division. We in the SDLP believe that there is a need to move towards greater transparency and accountability. That can be balanced against the political progress we are making in the interests of the public good and, above all, the wider needs of society in Northern Ireland, because the experience of the last few weeks tells us that the public want politics to move in that direction. They want us, while serving them, to exercise our job in the right and proper and accountable manner.
Mike Penning
I completely understand where the hon. Lady is coming from. The whole Bill went through pre-legislative scrutiny, and we are not discussing semantics —it is much more serious than that. We are saying that the Secretary of State will take the powers and that, if we are in a secure position, we will move forward. As mentioned earlier—I think the Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), asked about this—the Secretary of State also has the statutory power to revoke.
Lady Hermon
I am extremely grateful to the Minister for taking a second intervention so soon after the first. I was very concerned when the Minister wound up on Second Reading and used an expression that struck me—and, I am sure, other right hon. and hon. Members —at the time:
“If one person is put at risk, that is not right.”—[Official Report, 24 June 2013; Vol. 565, c. 118.]
Although I cannot speak for others, I inferred that if one donor felt he or she was at risk the transparency measures would not be lifted by the Northern Ireland Office. Will the Minister take this opportunity to clarify when it will ever be the right time—when we have no risk at all?
Mike Penning
That is a good intervention. I read what I said the following day, as all good Ministers should—as all good Members should, to be honest—and I was speaking metaphorically. I was not speaking about an actual physical individual, because of course that would be a crazy situation. We would never, as hon. Members have said, get into a position where there was no threat to anybody. Let me clarify: I was speaking in general terms, rather than individually.
Let me touch on the threat. My job is not only to ensure, along with the Electoral Commission, that the electoral system in Northern Ireland runs properly but to ensure the national security of Northern Ireland. There might be concerns about individual businesses, and I think that this applies to businesses that give donations to any political party in the UK—we have talked about the Co-op—and they suffer any consequences, but that is completely separate from the intimidation and personal threats I see daily.
The shadow Secretary of State asked whether it should be on the face of the Bill that the PSNI should be a consultant. This subject is much more wide ranging than the PSNI; we could do that, but we do not need to. As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, it is more wide ranging and involves the other security services that are helping us and that helped us so brilliantly during the G8.
Amendment 6 stands in the name of the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). I am told that I should not say this, but I have some sympathy with the argument, in that we need to move forward. I will not accept the amendment—he probably understands that—but if we are talking about normalisation, I accept that there need to be discussions between the Government in the south, us, and all the political parties on how we can get to a slightly better position. I very much take on board the point that the Good Friday agreement set out that there is a different situation in Northern Ireland when it comes to donations and political parties. Of course, there is a cross-Ireland political party that has had Members elected to this House, but it is not represented in the Chamber today.
I am committed to ongoing discussions, and to seeing how we can move the issue forward. I cannot accept amendment 6, but as that commitment is, I think, roughly what the right hon. Gentleman asked me to give, hopefully he is happy with that. I ask hon. Members to withdraw amendments 7, 8, 2 and 6, and commend clauses 1 and 2 to the Committee.
Mark Durkan
No, that is not a fact. When I was a Minister in Northern Ireland I was not an MP. I became a suspended Minister—I was a suspendee, not a suspender —in October 2002, and I was not elected to this House until 2005. I subsequently made appointments when I was a Member of this House; I was the leader of my party and had the power to appoint Ministers. I made it very clear well in advance that I could not appoint myself as a Minister, no matter how many seats we had won and how many Ministers we might have had to appoint in the Assembly. I was an MP and could not be a Minister. That was our party rule, and the party standard has been consistent. Similarly, when my hon. Friend the Member for South Down, who was a very able Minister for Social Development in the Executive, was elected to this House, she resigned as a Minister. That was consistent with that principle: we have consistency and form on this issue.
Regardless of what justification Members or parties might be able to give for having coped with the dual mandate in the past, circumstances are different now. We have an absolutely settled process. It is important to give the public the confidence that we believe it is a settled process by moving on dual mandates. That would indicate that we do not believe that there is any uncertainty surrounding the institutions which might give an excuse for having a foot in two Chambers.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking an intervention, but may I run one suggestion past him? I have never had a dual mandate and I do not particularly favour them. However, in the context of a devolved Administration in Northern Ireland that is sustainable and will continue, is there not an argument to be made for the Finance Minister in that devolved Administration to be present in this House, particularly for the Budget, financial statements and the comprehensive spending review, so that he or she can address the key issues across the Dispatch Box to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that day and on those issues?
Mr Donaldson
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The Government have already legislated—as, I think, the Assembly might have done—to ensure that a Member of this House who is also a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly receives no pay for holding the office of Assembly Member and has a much reduced office costs allowance. There is already provision to deal with the issue. The reality is, however, that the proposal is also incorporated into this Bill.
I would like to say on behalf of the Democratic Unionist party that we oppose the amendment that would exclude Members of the House of Lords from the opportunity of serving in the Northern Ireland Assembly, and we have valid reasons for doing so. The House of Lords is an appointed second Chamber in the United Kingdom Parliament. In making appointments to it, there is a desire to achieve a degree of regional representation. I happen to think that it is to the benefit of devolution to have a connection between this Parliament and the devolved legislatures. I accept that it is not preferable for that to involve Members of this House, because we are elected and there is the question of the dual mandate and because certain issues can arise at constituency level.
Those matters do not pertain to Members of the House of Lords, however. Even in a reformed House of Lords, there would be value in making provision for some Members of the devolved legislatures also to be represented, if they so chose, in the House of Lords. That would help to bind the United Kingdom together, and to recognise the special position of the House of Lords. As a body, it is not necessarily representative in geographical terms, but it is widely representative of society. Why should we not have in the House of Lords legislators from the devolved regions of the United Kingdom? We do not accept the need to amend the Bill to exclude Members of the House of Lords from having that dual representation—if not a dual mandate—in the separate Chambers.
Lady Hermon
The House of Lords is a key part of the legislature of the United Kingdom and, as someone who is very keen on devolution, I believe that the Assembly is an essential part of the Government in Northern Ireland. Can the right hon. Gentleman honestly say, with his hand on his heart, that a person—or multiple people—sitting in the Assembly and in the House of Lords can do justice to both roles and sit in both places simultaneously?
Mr Donaldson
I can say, hand on heart, that I believe they can. When I was a Member of the Assembly and of the UK Parliament, my attendance record on Committees in the Assembly was far superior to those of single-mandate Members of the Assembly. When I chaired the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, I had a 100% attendance record—I was the best attendee on the Committee. We have to weigh these things up and strike a balance.
Mike Penning
If I may, I will make some progress. We have a lot to get through this evening and not a lot of time, even though it looks like we do. We have not made much progress down the list of amendments.
The Government listened to the Select Committee and changed our mind about whether someone could be an MLA and a Member of the lower House in the Republic. We listened carefully to the debate and accepted that suggestion.
I completely agree with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). My personal view, as well as that of the Government, is that there is a difference between a person elected to this House with a mandate—the words in the explanatory notes were put there for a reason—and a Member of the House of Lords. Members of the House of Lords do not have a mandate: they are not elected; they do not have a constituency; they do not have constituents. However, the Government’s view is not fixed and if, when the Bill passes to the other place, the House of Lords has a view on that, we will consider what comes back to us. At present, the reason behind the change is to do with mandates and not to do with whether Members are in another Chamber.
Lady Hermon
I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that the explanatory notes, so beautifully quoted—selectively—by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), go on to quote the Committee on Standards in Public Life, which reported in 2009 after the horrendous scandal of MPs’ expenses. It states that
“the Committee questions whether it is possible to sit in two national legislatures simultaneously and do justice to both roles”.
It does not use the word mandate at all and uses the word “legislatures”, so will the Minister revisit that?
Mike Penning
It is very important that we consider what the electorate have decided to do. The electorate elect people to this House and to the Legislative Assembly. I pay tribute to those who had more than a dual mandate when there was a need for people to put their heads above the parapet and stand for office when things were enormously difficult in Northern Ireland. We have moved on. We accept that MLAs should not be able to stand for the lower House in the Republic, but we do think, at present, that they should be able to sit in the Lords. MEPs are a matter for another Department, on another day, and another Bill, in the Government’s opinion.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Lady Hermon Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Unlike every other Northern Ireland Bill of recent years, the legislation before the House this afternoon is not being rushed through to resolve a crisis, to deal with security matters or to revive collapsed institutions. Today, we are considering a new kind of Bill for Northern Ireland: a Bill for more normal times—times in which Northern Ireland’s position as part of the United Kingdom is settled on the basis of consent; we have a stable and inclusive devolved Government at Stormont; and the focus is now very much on the politics of delivery.
Many of the measures in the Bill—in contrast to previous legislation—have been prepared in the light of public consultation, followed by pre-legislative scrutiny by the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and his Committee for the seriousness and diligence with which they approached their task of scrutinising this legislation. Several aspects of the Bill have been improved in response to their recommendations.
So the context for this Bill is much more stable than that for previous Northern Ireland-related legislation. Devolved government is well established and the Northern Ireland institutions have been running continuously since 2007. In May, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister published an ambitious programme to address sectarian divisions, including dismantling all peace walls within 10 years. Just 10 days ago, they, I and the Prime Minister signed a substantial economic pact to help Northern Ireland compete in the global race for jobs and investment. The agreement reflects the maturing relationship between the Government and the Executive, and it will see the two Administrations working more closely together than ever before on crucial issues such as business access to finance, improving infrastructure, and supporting research and development.
Of course, last week Northern Ireland also played host to the highly successful G8 summit—something that would have been unthinkable only a few years ago. The Prime Minister’s decision to bring the G8 to County Fermanagh could not have been more fully vindicated. Lough Erne provided a spectacular backdrop for the meeting of eight of the most powerful people in the world. The summit was a great opportunity to showcase the best of the new Northern Ireland, which is a great place to invest and a great place to visit. A highly effective policing operation delivered the most peaceful G8 that anyone can remember. Let me take this opportunity to thank the Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partner agencies, including the Garda Siochana, for all their work in making that possible and for their continuing vigilance against the terrorist threat that remains so severe in Northern Ireland.
The Bill makes a number of institutional changes. The measures do not reopen the political settlement enshrined in the Belfast agreement or its successors, but I believe they will improve the way that politics works in Northern Ireland in a number of significant ways. For example, the Bill will open the way for more transparency about political donations, it will modernise the way that elections are run and it will see an end to dual mandates in the Assembly and the House of Commons.
Let me take the points about transparency first. As the House may well be aware, Northern Ireland is subject to different transparency rules on political donation from the rest of the UK. The concern has always been that the publication of donor names could deter people from making political donations because of fear of violent reprisal. Let me be clear that the Government’s ultimate goal is full transparency, with the rules in Northern Ireland being brought into line with the rest of the UK but, having considered the matter carefully, we have concluded that the security situation has not improved sufficiently to enable us to do that and that it is not yet right to start publishing donor names.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for taking an intervention so early in her speech. The Secretary of State began with words with which no one could disagree. She said that the Bill is happening in more normal times in Northern Ireland; I could not agree more. She proceeded to talk about the G8 summit, which has been a huge success, and I thank her for expressing appreciation of the PSNI and the Garda Siochana. Will she take into account the fact that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want the anonymity of political donations to be removed and want transparency? What justification is there for keeping that anonymity in more normal times for Northern Ireland?
Mrs Villiers
The hon. Lady makes a fair point. I share the goal of those who want to see the extension of the GB regime to Northern Ireland, but, as I have said, I feel that the time is not right for that because the security situation has not improved enough since the rules were first devised. It is a pity, but the Bill will enable us to make progress towards the ultimate goal, which the hon. Lady and I both support.
Clauses 1 and 2 will enable us to make progress towards exactly the sort of normalisation that the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) wants to see. They will give the Government the power to use secondary legislation to increase transparency gradually, stage by stage. As a first stage, in response to the recommendations of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, we propose to move as swiftly as possible to the publication of draft secondary legislation, if the Bill passes all its parliamentary stages.
Mrs Villiers
The Democratic Unionist party has strong views on these matters—[Hon. Members: “So did your party in your manifesto.”]—but they are not relevant to the Bill. No doubt hon. Members will have the opportunity to raise those concerns as the debate continues, and I am sure that, on a future occasion, the whole House will have the opportunity to express a view on the status quo regarding parliamentary allowances and what changes should be made.
Lady Hermon
Will the Secretary of State clarify, for the benefit of the whole House, whether Members of the Scottish Parliament and Members of the Welsh Assembly can also sit in the House of Lords? Is there a precedent that the Secretary of State is following, or are we just making it up as we go along for Northern Ireland?
Mrs Villiers
There is no legislative ban on Members of the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish Parliament being Members of the House of Lords. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales is seeking to introduce legislation on dual mandates in the Welsh Assembly and the House of Commons. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has not taken that step. We believe that there is a case for looking specifically at Northern Ireland, where this has arisen as a problem. The Committee on Standards in Public Life commented that the issue was particularly entrenched in relation to Northern Ireland; that is why it was the subject of the manifesto commitment relating to the Northern Ireland Assembly, but not other Assemblies.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I join others in welcoming the Bill. It has had a long gestation period, and the previous Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who is now the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, heralded it as a normalisation Bill. We heard about the Bill in many meetings with him and others at the Northern Ireland Office, and we were led to believe that it would contain all sorts of wonderful, amazing things for Northern Ireland. Yes, it represents progress, but it is certainly not as far-reaching as was originally envisaged. It is certainly not as ambitious as the then Secretary of State suggested when he became the holder of that office.
The then Secretary of State said many other things, too, and I shall deal with those in a moment. One such matter was allowances for Sinn Fein Members. We have talked about dual mandates, but the issues of non-representation and the non-fulfilment of mandates are equally important. The right hon. Gentleman promised that not a single Conservative Member in this new Parliament would dream of sustaining the position whereby Members who did not take their seats could claim money and expenses. I hope that the House will shortly have an opportunity to consider that matter further.
I welcome the fact that we are debating the Bill at a time when there is no crisis in Northern Ireland relating to the Assembly or the Executive. On many occasions, we have had to debate all the stages of a Bill in one day to deal with the suspension of the Assembly, with some other crisis, or with its reinstatement. Thankfully, those days have gone and we now have relative stability. Indeed, we take that stability for granted. The very fact that we are debating an extension of the current Assembly’s term for another year, and fixed terms of five years thereafter, is in indication of the progress that has been made. Who would have previously imagined that we would be discussing these proposals here today? People would have said that we were living in fantasy land if they had been suggested before. Previous Assemblies did not have this kind of stability, and even the current one that was set up under the 1998 legislation did not have it until 2007. So we have a lot to be grateful for, and we should reflect on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, but we should not take it for granted. We must remember that there is still work to be done to ensure that that stability continues.
The Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State have mentioned that we are debating these matters against the background of a propitious event. The hosting of the G8 summit by Northern Ireland was enormously successful, and tribute has rightly been paid to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the security forces in the Irish Republic and to the help given by other British police and security services. We have had great news, too, in recent days with announcements of significant numbers of fantastic, good-quality, high-value jobs for Northern Ireland. All those announcements are highly significant. As has also been pointed out, however, major challenges remain despite the progress that has been made. The challenge posed by dissident terrorists and other republican groups is significant. The police and security services deserve all our gratitude and our support—given in material ways—to make sure that they are ready, able and fit to combat that threat.
It is also crucial that the political parties in Northern Ireland’s civic society continue to give their full support to policing, the courts and the rule of law. One deeply disturbing issue already alluded to in this debate is the selective approach to policing that we have seen in recent months from Sinn Fein. We have seen its members picketing outside police headquarters when certain people are arrested, protesting against certain investigations and now we have seen the incident mentioned by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the Chairman of the Select Committee, and others, in which a Sinn Fein Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive and a Sinn Fein member of the Policing Board, Gerry Kelly, were both seen openly obstructing police and clambering on police vehicles at a peaceful parade held in my Belfast North constituency last Friday.
Clearly, there is outrage at this loutish and hooligan behaviour. It is not the job of Assembly Members, elected representatives or members of the Policing Board to interfere in that way in the conduct of police operational matters. Holding the police to account is not, as Gerry Kelly seems to think, a question of clambering on a police vehicle and trying to stop an arrest. It is about doing the job of being a member of the Policing Board by asking questions or coming to this House, if elected to it, and asking questions; it is not about vandalism or the loutish behaviour and hooliganism that we have seen. I have written to the Chief Constable today to ask what action he is going to take to investigate fully and ensure that action is taken against those who engage in this kind of provocative behaviour, which could have resulted in serious trouble. As we saw on the night, these actions led to others getting involved in attacking the police vehicle. There are challenges that we in Northern Ireland face.
Let me move on to the details of the Bill. It does not go as far as was first envisaged, but significant progress has been made on donations, dual mandates, the removal of some powers from the excepted category to the reserved category, and justice powers. I shall deal with each of those briefly in turn.
The issue of political donations and loans falls into three main areas: transparency of donors, the timetable for moving to full transparency and—this is an issue that the Secretary of State only glanced over—an anomaly that will remain, despite the Bill, in that donations will still be able to be made to Northern Ireland parties from individuals and bodies outside the United Kingdom.
This party supports in principle having as much transparency as possible when it comes to donations. There have obviously been good reasons in Northern Ireland for granting exceptions to the rules that apply to parties in the rest of the United Kingdom. Evidence about the security situation presented to the Select Committee in its investigation of this Bill cannot be set to one side. That evidence has come from not just the Unionist side, but the nationalist side and, as I mentioned in my intervention on the Secretary of State, the independent Electoral Commission. It shows that many brave individuals and businesses stepped forward during the darkest of days to make donations. They took great personal and corporate risks coming forward with donations, and their main concern was rightly—there is evidence that when the donations were discovered, these things did happen—that they would suffer personal loss, a downturn in trade and, in some cases, even physical attack. The intimidation was a real threat and was certainly a clear attempt to silence people and prevent them from participating in the democratic process.
As we in Northern Ireland move forward and put the violence of the past behind us, it is right and proper that we move towards a system of donations and loans that is similar to that used in the rest of the United Kingdom. That should apply not only to transparency issues, but to all aspects of donations, such as who can donate. From 2014 onwards, why should there be any exceptions at all?
We support the commitment in the Bill not to publish retrospectively the names of past donors. Any future reform must safeguard the trust that people in the past have placed in the system, to protect them, their families and their businesses from disclosure.
Lady Hermon
On transparency of political donations, I agree that donors to any political party were under real and significant threat in the past, but in the present changed circumstances in Northern Ireland that we enjoy by and large—thank goodness—will the right hon. Gentleman say, without disclosing their identities and breaching confidentiality, whether it is tens, dozens or one or two donors to the Democratic Unionist party who currently feel threatened by violence?
Mr Dodds
I can do no better than to quote the leader of my party and First Minister of Northern Ireland, who, as stated in the House of Commons Library research paper, shared the concerns of other parties, including the Ulster Unionists, in saying in evidence to the Select Committee:
“In the past, businesses and businesses were attacked because of their association either with security forces or with one section of the community. You cannot be cavalier about these issues because they are real. Even if it did not happen, there would certainly be the perception among those who might be willing to donate that it could.”
I will go even further and quote the leader of the SDLP, the hon. Member for South Down—[Hon. Members: “South Belfast.”] I apologise to both the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), the leader of the SDLP, who said in evidence to the Select Committee—I know he is more than capable of speaking for himself—that
“we feel that we were particularly vulnerable…in that some of our donors felt vulnerable and threatened…Sometimes the threat is not even direct, but people are put under pressure and told, ‘You gave the SDLP £1,000 this week; we think that we are entitled to £2,000 this week’. The threat is at that level. In a situation in which there are still a handful of people moving about with guns, that threat is there.”
I agree with the leader of the SDLP, with the leader of my party and with the Government, who have got this issue right. The Electoral Commission—an independent, not party political, body—also expressed such concerns.
I also fully endorse the recommendation of the Select Committee that the clause should be amended so as to provide that the Electoral Commission in future—from 2014 onwards, not going backwards—can disclose donor identity only where there is express consent from the donor; under the Bill as currently worded, such information can be published where there are “reasonable grounds” to believe that there was consent.
On the timetable for moving to transparency, I listened to what the Secretary of State has said: the Bill does not implement any provision, but simply gives the power to the Secretary of State to bring forward legislation in future for achieving greater transparency. At that point, a strong degree of caution and common sense will still need to be exercised because of the continued dissident threat to which we have referred.
The Bill states that the Electoral Commission must be consulted, but—with due respect to the commission—I think that there should also be consultation with the security forces and with the police in particular, and also with the political parties in Northern Ireland. I would be grateful for the Secretary of State’s assurance that this will not simply involve the thoughts and minds of the Electoral Commission, and that there will be a much wider consultation.
Mr Dodds
Actually, the reason for that is the fact that, given the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2012, we will have a clash in May 2015. That is what makes it imperative that action is taken in this Parliament. The dates of the Scottish parliamentary and Welsh Assembly elections were moved for precisely that reason. If we do not take action, in two years’ time there will be elections on the same day for Parliament and in Northern Ireland. That is why this measure has been brought forward.
Lady Hermon
May I preface my remarks by saying it is wonderful to see the right hon. Gentleman back on great form? I might not agree with half of what he is saying, but I am delighted to see him, as a great parliamentarian, back and on great form.
May I make an imaginary journey forward to 2016, when we will—unfortunately, from my perspective—have an Assembly election? The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will be well aware of the fact that the Easter of 2016 will be celebrated, and that could be very divisive, as that Easter marks the centenary of a significant event. Does the right hon. Gentleman have concerns—and I do just mean concerns—about that being exploited by a particular party in Northern Ireland to its advantage?
Mr Dodds
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her very kind remarks. It is great to be back, and there is no better occasion to be back for than this debate on the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It is a great Bill and reminds me why I entered politics in the first place.
I understand where the hon. Lady is coming from, but I cannot agree with her. The Easter rising centenary will be commemorated in 2016, but the Unionist perspective will be, “100 years on and still no united Ireland”. One hundred years on from the Easter rising and Ulster—Northern Ireland—is more firmly part of the United Kingdom than it has ever been.
Mr Dodds
I am absolutely delighted that the hon. Lady asked that question. I look forward to her, like me, celebrating in 2016 and also commemorating another significant historic event in Northern Ireland—the anniversary of the Somme—on 1 July, as so many Ulster men gave their lives on the first day of that enormous battle. There will be many commemorations, centenaries and anniversaries affecting Northern Ireland in 2016 and the coming years, so I understand what she is saying. Although I do not agree with her on that point, I am sure she will respect my view on the issue.
Let me deal briefly with the change in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly. As the Secretary of State has said, the powers will change from being in an excepted category to being in the reserved category. The Northern Ireland Assembly will, thus, be able to legislate, with the consent of the Westminster Parliament, and that is right and proper. We believe that there should be more such provisions, making it easier for the Northern Ireland Assembly to legislate in other areas, such as its working, the make-up of the Executive and how they are formed. Of course, this should be done on a cross-community basis and as a result of negotiation, agreement and a cross-community vote, but it would send a strong signal that more of those powers are for the people and parties in Northern Ireland to agree.
Of course, Northern Ireland is over-represented, but we have 108 Members because the parties that supported the Belfast agreement in 1998 wanted the Assembly to be that big. We opposed that, for the reasons of over-representation that many Members are now talking about. The choice of six Members per constituency was a blatant attempt, once again, to get smaller parties that were, at that stage, in favour of the Belfast agreement into the Assembly at the expense of others. It did not work out that way because the Northern Ireland electorate had much greater common sense, voting for parties that would fight for change and reform, and for a better way forward. We achieved that, which is why we have the stability we have had since 2007.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lady Hermon Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mike Penning
Absolutely. The Northern Ireland Executive are committed to protecting the environment and countryside, although they want 40% of Northern Ireland’s electricity to come from renewable sources by 2020.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am curious to know—as, I am sure, is the whole House—whether the Northern Ireland Office has had any discussions with the Irish Government about the possibility of fracking in Northern Ireland, and the use of shale gas. Please do not tell me that this is a devolved issue; I want a response from the Northern Ireland Office.
Mike Penning
Neither the Secretary of State nor I have engaged in such discussions. I will find out whether our officials have done so, and will write to the hon. Lady if they have.
Northern Ireland
Lady Hermon Excerpts(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Vernon Coaker
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. As the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said, the fact that we are having a debate on the Floor of the House of the House of Commons in London is a statement of the importance that all of us here attach to what is going on in Northern Ireland. We do take notice and we do care.
I hope that all of Northern Ireland will benefit from the G8 summit, and I am sure that the Government will involve the Northern Ireland Executive in an appropriate and beneficial way. I know, too, that the Irish Government hold the presidency of the European Union and will play a key part. The world police and fire games take place this summer and will provide a huge opportunity, with thousands of athletes coming to Northern Ireland from countries and continents the length and breadth of the globe. There is a huge belief in Northern Ireland that things that only a few years ago would have seemed impossible, have been and are being done, and that things are moving in the right direction.
Despite those huge strides, however, we cannot be complacent about the challenges that remain. For us in Westminster, devolution should not mean disengagement. We have a role to play and the Government have a responsibility to help keep Northern Ireland moving in the right direction. On security and the economy, decisions made at a UK level have enormous implications for Northern Ireland, a point made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey).
The continuing activities of dissident republican groups give cause for worry. They are small but dangerous, and have shown that, despite being rejected by the vast majority of the public, they are determined to continue their campaign of violence. The awful murder of prison officer David Black a few months ago should serve as a reminder of their deadly intent. Indeed, as we have seen recently, it is thanks only to the dedication of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Army technical officers and the Security Service that further atrocities have been avoided. The foiling of attacks across Northern Ireland is a credit to these very brave and dedicated individuals who keep people safe and secure, and do their job with courage and professionalism in the face of serious threats against them and their families. They have our utmost gratitude, and the support and admiration of the entire House.
I share the concerns—perhaps the Secretary of State or the Minister can address them—about how the additional security funding from the Treasury has been allocated in the four years from 2011 to 2015. There will be a drop in funding next year from £62 million in 2013-14 to £27 million in 2014-15. The police and security services, as I know we all agree, must have all the resources they need to combat terrorist threats. I know that the Secretary of State agrees, and I am sure that the Government will keep all these matters under review, taking advice from the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister.
The unrest seen in loyalist and Unionist areas following the decision of Belfast city council not to fly the Union flag all year round, also gives cause for concern. There was a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation against public representatives, the police and the wider community. Some of it was orchestrated by paramilitaries, which is unacceptable. There is real frustration and anger in some communities, and I do not downplay that or ignore those who say that their Britishness is being undermined. I hear similar sentiments, albeit from the opposite viewpoint in republican and nationalist areas, where some people feel that their Irishness is not respected or given appropriate recognition. Clearly, these are not easy issues to address.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that when the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) was Prime Minister, he announced in July 2007 that he was lifting the ban on the national flag; he encouraged the flying of the Union flag, certainly throughout Great Britain. I wonder what the official policy of the official Opposition is on flying the flag in Northern Ireland. Would it be helpful to increase the flag-flying days in Northern Ireland, as requested by loyalists and others?
Vernon Coaker
Our position is to try to help facilitate agreement between everyone about what solutions can be found, so that Britishness and Irishness is respected. It is difficult, in a particular circumstance, to say, “This is the solution that can or should be found.” Equality of respect between the different traditions in Northern Ireland is extremely important. Flags are a symbol of that, and all one can hope for is that the discussions and ongoing debate will lead to a conclusion that is acceptable to all communities.
Lady Hermon
I would like to reflect on the hon. Gentleman’s words about dealing with the past. I think he referred to a comprehensive and inclusive process to deal with the past. Will he spell out what that might involve, other than talking to one another, cross-community football matches or whatever? Does he wish to see another commission like the recent Eames-Bradley commission? What exactly is “comprehensive” and “inclusive”?
Vernon Coaker
It might be something along the lines that Eames-Bradley suggested; what I am saying is that we have to bring people together to talk about this in the first place, but at the moment I think there is reluctance on the part of the Government to do that. I remember a debate in which the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) said that the Northern Ireland Assembly had asked the then Secretary of State to facilitate talks and bring everyone together to see how a comprehensive and inclusive process might work. People get cynical about having more talks, but given the absence of agreement and consensus, and the fact that there are differing views about what should be done, the very least we can do is to bring people together, even if—I will be honest with the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)—there is no guarantee that that will succeed. To start to talk about that—to ask how we deal with it, whether elements of Eames-Bradley could have worked, whether other elements could work and what a comprehensive process means, and to include all representatives in Northern Ireland in that process—is to start saying what we can do to address the issue. That is the role that the UK Government could play in trying to facilitate the process that the hon. Lady describes.
The values that were held throughout the peace process are as relevant today as they ever were—the commitment to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships in Northern Ireland, between north and south, and between these islands; the acknowledgement that the tragedies of the past have left a deep and profoundly regrettable legacy of suffering, and that those who have died or been injured and their families must never be forgotten; the acceptance that only democratic and peaceful methods can be used to resolve political differences; and, most fundamentally, an understanding that differences still exist between competing, equally legitimate political aspirations, but that we must strive in every practical way towards peace and reconciliation. The Government at Westminster must rededicate themselves to those values, working with the Executive and the Irish Government to fulfil their obligations to help to keep Northern Ireland moving forward. There is still work to be done. Let us do it together, mark the progress, meet the challenges and strive to build peace, progress and prosperity in every community in Northern Ireland.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) on choosing Northern Ireland for today’s debate. Those on the Opposition Front Bench have provided us with a welcome opportunity to consider some hugely important matters in Northern Ireland.
Let me start by paying tribute to the courage and dedication of those on all sides who are responsible for delivering the huge progress we have seen in Northern Ireland over the past two decades. That includes successive UK Governments, our partners in the Irish and US Administrations and, of course, the political leadership in Northern Ireland. They all deserve our sincere thanks. Delivering the peace settlement was greatly assisted by the bipartisan attitude that is generally taken in this House towards matters such as security and constitutional and institutional affairs in Northern Ireland. I very much welcome the continuation of that approach from the shadow Secretary of State.
As the hon. Gentleman said, the bedrock of the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland is provided by the agreement signed on 10 April, 15 years ago. Whether we call it the Belfast agreement or the Good Friday agreement, there can be no doubt that it has transformed life in Northern Ireland, alongside its successor agreements, made at St Andrews in 2006 and Hillsborough in 2010. None of those agreements would have happened without the Downing Street declaration, made 20 years ago by John Major and Albert Reynolds, which started the peace process in earnest.
I agree that we in this House must never, ever take the peace settlement for granted. It will always be important to keep reminding ourselves of the many ways in which the agreements have improved life for people in Northern Ireland and transformed it as a place to live. For example, the agreements secured the constitutional position of Northern Ireland on the basis of consent, meaning that it will never cease to be a part of the United Kingdom unless a majority decides otherwise. That is something that we warmly welcome as a Government who support the Union and believe that all parts of our United Kingdom are stronger together, weaker apart. The agreements also mean that the territorial claim to sovereignty in articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution has now gone.
After years of direct rule from Westminster, we now have an inclusive, devolved Administration working hard for the people of Northern Ireland. Delivery of key public services is firmly in devolved hands, and since the St Andrews agreement, all the main parties are signed up to support for the police and the rule of law. The rights and identities of all parts of the community are fully protected, whether they choose to define themselves as British, Irish or both. There are accountable institutions to deliver practical co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and relations between the UK and the Republic of Ireland have never been better. Of course, the greatest achievement of all was the decommissioning of paramilitary weapons and the end of the terrorist campaigns that tragically saw 3,500 lives lost. However, I agree with the hon. Member for Gedling that there can be no doubt about the significant challenges that still need to be overcome in security, the economy, and addressing sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
Before the right hon. Lady moves on, will she take a brief opportunity to put it on record in this House that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would have responsibility under the legislation to trigger a border poll, if there were a need for that, but that, no matter how provoked by the leader of Sinn Fein, she has absolutely no intention of triggering a border poll in Northern Ireland for the foreseeable and long future?
Mrs Villiers
I can confirm, as I have said a number of times over recent months, that I have no plans to call a border poll. The conditions that require a border poll to take place, as set down in the Belfast agreement, are certainly not present; therefore, I simply do not think it would be a constructive thing to do. Indeed, I feel it would distract from the other big challenges for Northern Ireland, which we are discussing today.
Mrs Villiers
I do not have the figure to hand, but this very important issue is being carefully considered in the discussions between the Northern Ireland Executive and the DWP.
Mrs Villiers
I will take one more intervention, but then I want to make some progress.
Lady Hermon
The right hon. Lady will be relieved to know that I am not going to ask her about the bedroom tax, but I do want to take her back to the reference she made to the Presbyterian Mutual Society. It is absolutely right to put on the record the gratitude felt by PMS savers, particularly those saving up to £20,000. The Secretary of State’s immediate predecessor, and indeed the Prime Minister, did a wonderful job on the repayments, but that being the case, I am bewildered, as are many of my constituents, about why she did not make more effort to ensure that the Northern Ireland ombudsman’s report into the PMS fiasco was published in full—only a summary was published. Will she give an undertaking to go back and try to ensure that the ombudsman’s report is published in full?
Mrs Villiers
Obviously, I do not have standing to dictate to the ombudsman what they choose to do with their report, but I am certainly happy to look further into that matter and come back to the hon. Lady about it. I am grateful for her praise of the work done by my predecessor and the Prime Minister.
We are all, of course, concerned about unemployment in Northern Ireland, as it remains far too high, particularly among young people. It is the case that some parts of the community feel that the peace process has not delivered all they hoped it would, so we want to do more to strengthen the economy and help Northern Ireland in the global race for investment and jobs. That is why the Prime Minister decided to bring the G8 summit to County Fermanagh in June. I am grateful for the support for that decision expressed by the hon. Member for Gedling, both in the past and today. This provides us with an unprecedented opportunity to market Northern Ireland as a great place to visit and to do business with. I am working with the Executive to make the most of all the opportunities that that brings us.
I agree that, despite the progress that has been made over the years, it cannot be right that there are still some deep-seated divisions in parts of Northern Ireland society. As I go round Northern Ireland, I see many excellent examples of initiatives designed to bring people together, such as the Jethro centre in Lurgan, Forthspring in West Belfast, and Intercomm in North Belfast. As the flags-related disorder demonstrated, however, more needs to be done to build mutual understanding and mutual trust across sectarian divides.
Policy responsibilities for community relations are devolved, but this Government have always been keen to work with the Executive and to support them in moving things forward. During his visits to Northern Ireland, the Prime Minister highlighted the importance he places on this issue.
Following the meeting with the Prime Minister and the First and Deputy First Ministers in March, we are working with the Executive on a substantial new economic package, alongside measures that we hope will build a more cohesive and stable society.
The package is in addition to the support Northern Ireland already receives from the UK Government. The Government are examining ideas on making enterprise zones more attractive, helping the Executive to take forward infrastructure projects, improving access to bank finance, and various other measures. Meanwhile, the Executive have the opportunity to use their devolved responsibilities to develop economic and social measures, including work on a shared future which we are all committed to delivering.
Put simply, this is a two-way street: the greater the Executive’s ambition, the more the Government will be able to do to support and help them. This is about partnership and working together on our shared goals, and I am optimistic about the chances of achieving a good outcome for Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Gedling spoke about dealing with the past.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lady Hermon Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
I am happy to work with ministerial colleagues to ensure that we get the right outcome on REACH. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. Although the underlying purpose of that directive—to ensure that chemicals are handled safely—is laudable, it would be counter-productive if it destroyed jobs and enterprise and simply exported them outside the European Union. I will therefore press my colleagues to ensure that we get a sensible outcome on REACH, which will not have the damaging impact that the hon. Gentleman fears.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
This is an unusual request, but I shall make it anyway. As part of the inward investment power of the G8 summit in Fermanagh next June, will the Secretary of State kindly meet my constituent, Mr Peter Meanley, who is a very distinguished craftsman and wishes to make beautifully glazed Toby jug replicas of all eight Heads of Government and State? It is an usual request, but will the Secretary of State please my constituent and the North Down MP by granting it?
Mrs Villiers
I would be happy to meet the hon. Lady’s constituent. It sounds as though he has an excellent project. Over the coming months, the Government will work hard to ensure that Northern Ireland gets the maximum possible benefits from the G8, which is an opportunity to showcase Fermanagh and the whole of Northern Ireland as a brilliant place to visit as a tourist and a brilliant place in which to invest.
Security in Northern Ireland
Lady Hermon Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I beg to move,
That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and the security forces generally, and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland.
At the very outset of this debate I want once again to place on record, on behalf of my hon. Friends, and I am sure everybody in this House, our heartfelt and sincere condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Prison Officer David Black—an innocent public servant going to work when he was brutally gunned down in cold blood by despicable criminals. His death will leave a massive void in the lives of his wife and children that will never be filled. We continue to think of Mrs Black and her children; our thoughts and prayers are with them. There is no doubt that Mrs Black’s call at the time of her husband’s murder for no retaliation was an example of immense courage and bravery, which, as I said in response to the Secretary of State’s statement at the time, stood in stark contrast to the darkness in the hearts of her husband’s killers. We will remember him and his colleagues, and all those who have died in the service of defending Northern Ireland. It is our duty to do all we can, as far as possible, to ensure that this kind of violence is thwarted and defeated.
There is no doubt about the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland over recent years. As the Prime Minister has said, his announcement yesterday that Fermanagh would host the G8 summit next June would have previously been unthinkable—he said it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago, but I think it would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. It is an immense opportunity for Northern Ireland to showcase its talents and the opportunities that we can provide to a worldwide audience. It is a momentous event. We warmly welcome the announcement and thank the Prime Minister for taking that step, which is a mark of the progress we have made. Another was the visit by Her Majesty to the Irish Republic last year and the diamond jubilee celebrations that took place in Northern Ireland, where for the first time in decades—I think maybe for the first time ever—Her Majesty was able to be greeted by thousands of ordinary people in Belfast and move about in an open-top vehicle without the massive security that would normally attend any kind of event involving Her Majesty. Again, that is an indication of the progress that has been made.
There is also the ongoing work that happens every day at Stormont and throughout Northern Ireland—parties working together, alongside the First and Deputy First Ministers, with Ministers representing a number of parties doing the day-to-day work of government, committed to working for and on behalf of all the people of Northern Ireland. It is important to put on record the gains that have been made through devolution in Northern Ireland. Even today, my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has tabled early-day motion 752, which draws attention to other significant achievements for Belfast and Londonderry, which is now recognised as the fourth best city in the world to visit, according to the “Lonely Planet” guide, and will be the UK city of culture next year. These are immense strides forward in Northern Ireland. I pay tribute to everyone, right across the community and across all parties, who has played a part in bringing about that progress and, of course, to successive Governments as well.
But Mr Black’s murder showed us that, despite the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, there remains a crazed and fanatical republican element that is determined to try to drag our community backwards, into the darkest days of the past. Just last Monday a viable explosive device, which police said was designed to kill and maim, was discovered near my constituency off the Ballygomartin road. The device was found near a local school—Springhill primary school—and if it had gone off, the consequences, in terms of loss of life or serious injury to innocent civilians and schoolchildren, would have been very serious indeed. The device is thought to have fallen from the vehicle that belonged to its intended target, either a police officer or a soldier.
That incident, coming after the murder of David Black, shows that we are in a very serious situation indeed. Nor do we forget the murder of Constable Ronan Kerr in April last year, or the murder of Constable Stephen Carroll in March 2009, which came just two days after the killing of Sappers Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey at Massereene barracks. All those murders were carried out by so-called dissident republicans. There have also been many attacks and incidents that have been successfully thwarted by the excellent work of the police, through intelligence and co-operation with other elements of the security forces, including those in the Irish Republic. These murders all demonstrate the intent of the republican groups and the greater degree of planning and organisation that is now evident.
It is sometimes easy, especially from the perspective of those on this side of the Irish sea, to believe that everything in Northern Ireland is now sorted out.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would agree that it would be helpful if the Government were to sanction the publication of the inventories of the weapons that were decommissioned by loyalist terrorists—because that is what they were—and republican terrorists, supervised by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning, so that the people of Northern Ireland and of the United Kingdom generally could compare what is claimed to have been decommissioned with what we reckon still to be available out there to enable dissident republicans to carry out yet another ghastly murder. I join the right hon. Gentleman in condemning the murder of the prison officer and in giving the greatest praise to his wonderful family, who have shown themselves to be beacons of dignity.
Mr Dodds
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. She raises an issue that has been raised a number of times by Members from Northern Ireland and elsewhere about the decommissioning process. We have said on previous occasions that it would be useful for the process that we are engaged in if the public were allowed to know exactly what was decommissioned by the various terrorist groups in Northern Ireland. I remember attending meetings with the decommissioning body, along with other hon. Friends, at which we sought clarification as to the circumstances in which that information would eventually be released. My understanding was that a judgment would be made at a suitable juncture when the entire decommissioning process was finished. It was certainly the intention of General de Chastelain, who was then the chairman of the decommissioning body, that the information should be released in due course. It would be helpful if it were released, for the reasons that the hon. Lady has given.
We were among those who wanted the greatest possible transparency for the decommissioning process. Indeed, we pressed for it to be made clear to the public, through video evidence and photographs, exactly what was being decommissioned. Famously, however, the republican leadership refused to abide by that at the time. Unfortunately, their refusal to accept that reasonable argument, which was designed to reassure people in Northern Ireland that what was happening was real and sincere, delayed the introduction of devolution by some considerable time. It raised doubts about the sincerity of the republican movement.
I was making the point that people can sometimes fall into the belief that everything has been sorted out and settled, so far as Northern Ireland is concerned. The events that I have been describing, including the tragic murder of David Black, have served to remind everyone that massive challenges remain. I know that the Ministers and shadow Ministers who are here today do not hold that belief, but it is important that we should debate the issues here today and consider them carefully. We need to take note of the progress that has been made, as well as making it clear to the people of Northern Ireland that there is no complacency and no sense of the challenges being underestimated.
The criminals want to take the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland back to the days of death, bloodshed and mayhem, but all of us in Northern Ireland and here, throughout the country, are determined that they will not succeed. After the death of David Black, the First Minister said:
“The Assembly and the Executive will not fall or collapse—far from it. We are united in condemnation and reinforced in our determination to create a stable, shared and peaceful society.”
He was absolutely right in his assessment. Those evil people will not succeed. Such terrorism did not succeed in the past, and it will not succeed now.
It is important to make the point that the violence that was carried out in the past, over 30 or 40 years, by the Provisional IRA was just as despicable, unnecessary and evil as the violence that is being carried out today by the so-called dissidents. I echo the point made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) that the violence that was carried out by other groups, on the loyalist side, was terrorism. It is important for the sake of the victims that we do not get into a mindset of thinking that all the violence today is terrible while the violence that took place in the past was part of a conflict in which there could be grey areas and justifications. The violence that was carried out by the Provisional IRA, and others, for 35 years was just as evil as the violence that is being carried out today. It was never justified then, and it is not justified now.
Mrs Villiers
I, too, believe that every effort must be made to bring to justice the people responsible for this despicable murder, and I am sure the PSNI is doing everything in its power to ensure that that happens.
Lady Hermon
As the Secretary of State will know, with the murder of David Black, 30 prison officers have now been murdered in Northern Ireland. The Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross Foundation has a beautiful memorial garden at police headquarters in Belfast. Please will the Secretary of State support the establishment of a memorial garden for murdered prison officers in Northern Ireland? Organisations including the Prison Officers Association have long campaigned valiantly on this issue, and its chairman, Finlay Spratt, has given sterling leadership. Plans were afoot seven years ago. Such a garden would be a wonderful tribute to David Black and the other prison officers who have been murdered through the years of terrorism. It would be a fit and proper gesture and acknowledgement of the sacrifice made by prison officers through 30 years of terrible events in Northern Ireland.
Mrs Villiers
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that thoughtful suggestion. The Minister of State and I will certainly reflect on it, and I am happy to discuss it with the Northern Ireland Executive.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North referred to the new grouping that has apparently formed in Northern Ireland from a number of different terrorist groups. My emphasis would be on the fact that however they brand themselves, these groupings are condemned across Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the UK. The numbers involved in dissident activity continue to be small. The dissidents have almost no support, they despise the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland over the past two decades and they act in defiance of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Ireland, north and south, who voted overwhelmingly to back the political settlement we have today. Yet it is all too clear that these disparate groupings can still cause damage and ruin lives.
Mrs Villiers
Of course in all these cases it is important to look at individual circumstances, and I recommend to anyone who considers that they are under threat that they approach the PSNI about the matter to see what mitigation steps can be taken.
PSNI officers remain the repeated focus of dissident attack planning, with prison officers targeted as well. Terrorist groupings have continued to use hoax devices, acts of criminal damage or orchestrated disorder to create fear in the community and to draw police into situations where they might be vulnerable to attack. That tactic is designed to make it harder for the PSNI to provide community-style policing. It is also, bluntly, aimed at deterring people from joining the police, particularly those from the Catholic community. Yet we should recognise that confidence levels in policing across Northern Ireland have actually risen steadily. Chief Constable Matt Baggott continues to place community policing at the heart of his approach, and the proportion of Catholics in the PSNI has gone up from 8% in 2001 to more than 30% today. The PSNI is genuinely representative of the community it serves, it is one of the most transparent and rigorously scrutinised police services in the world, and I believe that it has the confidence of a significant majority of the people of Northern Ireland. I pay the fullest tribute to the work that Matt Baggott and his officers do in exceptionally difficult circumstances. They carry out their duties with professionalism, impartiality and bravery—that is also true of the Prison Service.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for taking yet another intervention. She quite rightly mentioned the additional resources given to the Chief Constable Matt Baggott and to the PSNI. We are absolutely thrilled that next year the G8 summit will come to Fermanagh. That is not in my constituency, however—could the summit come to North Down next time? Although we are thrilled about that, will the Secretary of State confirm—to the relief of us all—that additional resources will be made available to the PSNI for the increased security commitment? I am sure that the PSNI will deliver on that commitment to the best of its ability, but it needs finance to do so.
Mrs Villiers
We are committed to ensuring that the policing and security operation for the G8 summit is a success. Of course, appropriate resources will be allocated and we will make an announcement in due course, probably in January, about the budget.
As I have said, Prison Service officers also carry out their duties with dedication and courage and I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the work they do. They play a vital role in keeping people in Northern Ireland safe from harm and the Northern Ireland Prison Service keeps arrangements for the personal security of its officers under constant review. The director general of the service, Sue McAllister, is actively considering what further measures might need to be taken in the wake of the attack on David Black and the PSNI has a programme of security briefings under way for prison officers.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
I congratulate the Democratic Unionist party on bringing these important matters before the House today; I commend the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for the very measured way in which he introduced the debate, and I thank the Secretary of State for her remarks.
Northern Ireland’s security and stability affect and are the responsibility of every Member of Parliament, from every party and every part of the United Kingdom. Yesterday’s announcement that the G8 summit is coming to Northern Ireland next year is very welcome news for everyone in Northern Ireland. Fermanagh, which I know is close to the heart of the right hon. Member for Belfast North, is a beautiful county, which I have been privileged to visit. I was last in Enniskillen for the church service at St Macartin’s cathedral on the occasion of Her Majesty the Queen’s visit to Northern Ireland to mark the diamond jubilee. But of course we also remember the horrific Remembrance Sunday killings of 25 years ago. I have also spent time in Fermanagh visiting community groups and businesses, including the Fermanagh Trust which does such good work to promote shared education in the county.
The announcement that this hugely significant event, attended by eight world leaders, will be held in Northern Ireland is proof indeed that things have changed considerably for the better. Only a short number of years ago, it would have been unthinkable that an occasion of this significance, with all its security implications, could be held in Northern Ireland. Indeed the Prime Minister, at Prime Minister’s questions today, made that very point. Given that Derry-Londonderry is also to be the city of culture next year, I firmly believe, as the Secretary of State and the right hon. Gentleman said, that 2013 can be a great year of tourism, investment and togetherness for a vibrant and confident Northern Ireland taking its place on the world stage. A huge amount of progress has thus been made, as we and the Secretary of State recognise.
However, as the motion rightly identifies, there are still those who wish to destroy the peace and progress made and take us back to the dark days of conflict. The murder of Prison Officer David Black just a few weeks ago is a stark reminder of the need for us to be vigilant and realistic about the threat from terrorism. As I said in the House of Commons in the days afterwards, it was the cold-blooded, evil murder of an ordinary, decent man, going about his ordinary, decent business.
I, and some Members who are present in the Chamber this afternoon, stood with many other ordinary, decent people in Cookstown for David Black’s funeral—the Secretary of State was there as well—and was overwhelmed by the courage and determination of his family, and by what his very proud children said at his funeral. They showed that those who murdered a husband, a father and a friend did not succeed and will not succeed. It was good to hear from the Secretary of State this afternoon that there have been further arrests by the PSNI, and that the police have taken other action, including searching properties. That is very welcome news to all of us, I think, as we would all wish to see the perpetrators brought to justice as soon as possible.
We must not, however, think that sentiments alone will ensure that no other family is bereaved and no other home, as the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) rightly said that day, has an empty chair and a loved one gone. There can be no complacency about the threat from the small number of people engaged in violence, and there must be total support—financial and political—from both sides of the House to help the security forces in Northern Ireland to keep the people safe. Will the Minister in his closing remarks again assure the House that those protecting the public, particularly the PSNI, the Army technical officers and the security services, have all the resources needed to tackle terrorism and the threat to national security?
Unfortunately, David Black’s murder was not an isolated incident, as the Secretary of State said. It was part of a pattern of dissident republican terrorist activity across Northern Ireland, targeted primarily at the security forces. A gun attack on police took place in west Belfast at the end of July; two pipe bombs and a booby-trap device were left at the offices of Derry city council in September; mortar bombs were found in north Belfast in October; then, just last week, what is believed to have been an under-car bomb was found in Belfast, having fallen off the vehicle of the intended target. Loyalist paramilitaries are also engaged in creating discord within and between communities: their involvement in some of the public disorder seen in Belfast this summer and continuing sectarian attacks and criminal behaviour must also be condemned and challenged robustly.
In both working-class Unionist and working-class nationalist areas, joblessness among young people is a real concern, and the Secretary of State mentioned this. Not only does it damage our young people by denying them work, opportunity and aspiration, but it makes them vulnerable to exploitation and indeed recruitment by paramilitaries. We should never underestimate the impact on the security situation of unemployment and social and economic deprivation. Only rarely does any of this make the news here in London, but it is happening and we in Westminster have a duty to take note and to act to deal with it. That is why I so warmly welcome the topic the right hon. Member for Belfast North has brought to the House for debate today.
I believe, as do the Secretary of State and all Members of this House, that the PSNI is to be congratulated on its diligence and success in preventing attacks and catching the perpetrators. The Army technical officers in the bomb disposal units also deserve huge credit for their bravery and tenacity in dealing with suspect devices. Prosecutions relating to terrorist activity have continued, but the risk to police officers, prison officers, soldiers and the entire community remains very real.
Responding to remarks I made in the House earlier this month, the Secretary of State said:
“the PSNI is completely focused on maintaining the safety of prison officers, as it is on maintaining the safety of police officers, who are sadly also targeted by dissident terrorists. I am sure that every lesson will be learned, and that the PSNI and the Prison Service will look with care at whether any changes need to be made as a result of yesterday’s tragedy.”—[Official Report, 2 November 2012; Vol. 552, c. 513.]
Lady Hermon
I am following closely the comments being made by the shadow Secretary of State. Will he take a moment to support publicly the calls we have heard from this Bench this afternoon for the publication by the Government of the inventories of weapons already decommissioned by republicans and by loyalists, as agreed under the Belfast agreement? To hide behind the independence of the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning simply will not do. Will the hon. Gentleman please publicly endorse those calls for publication?
Vernon Coaker
Because of the way the hon. Lady has pursued the matter and raised it in this debate, she has already got a commitment from the Secretary of State to consider her request and to see whether anything more needs to be done. The hon. Lady had mentioned the publication of inventories several times this afternoon and the Secretary of State has—rightly, I believe—given a commitment to see whether anything further can be done to ensure that the weapons and other materiél that are said to have been destroyed actually have been. I am sure the House welcomes the Secretary of State’s commitment.
May I ask the Minister of State, who is to reply to the debate, what his assessment is of the lessons that have been learned and whether any changes are needed to ensure the highest levels of personal security for police officers, civilian police staff and Prison Service personnel? The Police Federation for Northern Ireland says that there have been 73 gun or bomb attacks since the start of this year—a startling and worrying figure—and last week its chairman, Terry Spence, said that 1,000 more officers were needed to combat what he described as a growing threat and to stop us “sleepwalking into disaster”. Following the previous Administration’s commitment, in 2010 this Government gave the police an extra £200 million, to be spread over the following four years, specifically to combat terrorism; and the Executive have provided £45 million for the same purpose. I know that, like me, the Minister of State has regular discussions with the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland and the Chief Constable. What representations has he received regarding the extension of that funding beyond 2014? What is his assessment of the call for additional police officers to meet the national security threat outlined by the PFNI chairman?
I know that there is ever-closer co-operation between the Irish Government and the UK Government, and between the Garda Siochana and the PSNI. The support of the Irish authorities in tackling terrorism is hugely important, and I commend in particular the Tanaiste, the Irish Justice Minister and the Garda commissioner for their hard work and determination. We all want that to continue.
Lady Hermon
I thank the Minister very much indeed for agreeing to a round-table discussion on a memorial garden for those 30 prison officers, which is wholly appropriate. I would hope that Finlay Spratt and others will be there.
On the inventory of decommissioned weapons, I welcome the Minister’s explanation that the Government appear not to have the document, but will he kindly confirm what is believed, which is that the document, the inventories and the details are kept in the university of Boston in America? Will the Minister clarify that if I were an academic, I could go to Boston and have open access to the inventories, but the people of Northern Ireland, and the MPs representing Northern Ireland, cannot see them? That is ludicrous.
Mike Penning
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and am pleased about the work we will look to do on the memorial.
On decommissioned weapons, the hon. Lady said earlier that we must not hide behind the independent body. Look at the size of me—I could not behind anybody! I am not hiding behind anything. I will discuss the matters the hon. Lady has mentioned with my officials, but I personally do not know where the hell those details are. She is much better informed than I, given the short time I have been in this job. The Secretary of State and officials will talk this through with the hon. Lady when they meet, but I have to go with the information I have been given.
Hon. Members have spoken of the terrible, appalling murder of David Black not only because it was a terrible murder, but because of how it was done. One thing that the police and forensics are looking at is exactly where that high-velocity weapon came from and where it has been stored. We know the weapon, but we do not know where it has been stored. Hon. Members have mentioned close protection weapons, but based on the evidence we have seen so far, David Black would not have been saved by one. Anyone willing to put so many people’s lives at risk by driving at speed on a motorway at 7.30 am while opening up with a high-velocity weapon shows a lack of care for other people that beggars belief.
Interestingly, those people are a bunch of cowards—they do not want to get hurt themselves but they put other people in the position of getting hurt—and they do not want to get caught, but their action was very risky. It is important that we try to understand where these dissident republicans are going rather than thinking back to the past and learning what they used to do. Some of their technology and methodology has not changed, but some things they are starting to do are different—probably out of desperation, but who knows?
I have promised to write to hon. Members if I do not deal with their points now, but in the one minute remaining I want to reiterate what the Prime Minister said yesterday when he was in Northern Ireland. It is significant that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom went to Northern Ireland to meet people in the very successful factory where they work. I got trapped with the owners on the plane coming back. They were so chuffed—it was absolutely brilliant for them to meet the Prime Minister and for their staff to have that personal contact. The Prime Minister reiterated—as did the Secretary of State—that we will work with the Opposition. We will work with anyone, and if some of these groups, on any side, want to meet me, I am more than happy to meet them anywhere. It is really important that we engage with them and try to dispel the concept that they could win anything by such actions. We need to work together, and we will give everything necessary, in security terms and in cost terms, to the PSNI and the other security services to ensure that the people of Northern Ireland go forward, not back into the terrible abyss of before.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and the security forces generally, and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lady Hermon Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mrs Villiers
I had the opportunity to discuss those matters with the Chief Constable in some detail yesterday. The right hon. Gentleman is right to refer to the importance of the £200 million of additional funding, which is devoted to countering the terrorist threat in Northern Ireland. We will certainly have discussions with the Chief Constable and the Treasury on what might occur after the cessation of that £200 million of funding.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I, too, welcome the right hon. Lady and her colleague to the Northern Ireland Office. I am quite sure that they will enjoy their posting to the mainland in Northern Ireland. Now on to my question—and it is a serious one.
Given that two very brave, young British soldiers were murdered by dissident republicans at Massereene barracks in March 2009 and that, since then, we have lost several of our soldiers in Afghanistan who grew up in Northern Ireland, will the right hon. Lady confirm exactly when her colleague, the Secretary of State for Defence, will visit Northern Ireland, not to tell the troops that they are to be made redundant, but to boost their morale, beginning with Palace barracks in my constituency of North Down?