Stormont House Agreement

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

Clearly, there is much work to be done on parades. Whatever had gone into the agreement, there were always going to be decisions to be made on the implementation process. I agree that the proposal to have an independent audit of the cost of division is very important—a point championed in particular by the Alliance party. There is obviously a slightly blurred division between integrated education and shared education, but what they both have in common is that they ensure that the children who go through those schools have the chance to get to know and learn alongside children from other community backgrounds. That is a crucial means of helping to deliver a shared and united future for Northern Ireland. That is why the Prime Minister has given a substantial commitment to supporting integrated and shared education through funding.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

With so many people throughout Northern Ireland feeling profoundly disillusioned with the performance of the Northern Ireland Assembly, will the Secretary of State accept that it is imperative that the political parties make the agreement work this time and that they do so with a generosity of spirit? I speak as someone who absolutely loathed direct rule and who is passionate about devolution and ensuring that the Assembly survives and succeeds to serve the whole of Northern Ireland.

[Mrs Villiers]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s sentiments. She is absolutely right. This is an opportunity for Northern Ireland’s political leaders to make it work. Anyone who thinks the agreement takes us in the wrong direction needs to reflect on the alternative: increasing chaos over the budget and increasing tension over a range of issues. This is an opportunity. There is work ahead of us all to implement the agreement, however, and I hope that everyone in the House will urge the Northern Ireland parties to seize the opportunity and make the agreement work for all of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the flexibilities offered in relation to borrowing powers would be of significant assistance to the Northern Ireland Executive in delivering the voluntary exit scheme for which they are calling. It was a significant and serious offer, but one that accepts the realities of the financial constraints we are under. I fully appreciate the difficulties concerning inquests. The Government are in listening mode, and we will continue to discuss the matter with the parties over the next couple of days. Whatever the outcome, it is vital that the cases be dealt with within a framework that is fully compliant with our obligations under article 2 of the European convention on human rights.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

The Prime Minister’s failure to broker a deal last week caused considerable disappointment in Northern Ireland, although I have to say that I do not think it caused much surprise, since he did not stay there very long trying to bring about success. However, it is the season of good will, so could the Secretary of State provide us with some reasons to be cheerful about the likelihood of success in the near future in these talks? That would be very welcome.

[Mrs Villiers]

I think that the reasons to be cheerful are that all the Northern Ireland parties accept that we need to find a deal and that everyone accepts that going into the next financial year with an unresolved budget would lead to increasing chaos and make it increasingly difficult for the Executive to perform even their ordinary, day-to-day functions. No one wants that. I think everyone accepts that that would be bad for every party that is a member of the Executive. I think there is that willingness to make progress. We are relatively close on matters, for example on how we set up new structures to help deal with the past in a way that better meets the needs of victims and survivors.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. These are very important matters appertaining to Northern Ireland. Let us have a bit of quiet for Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. That was very gracious of you.

In the absence of the operation of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland, what steps are this Government taking to ensure that Northern Ireland does not again become a honeypot for human traffickers, drug traffickers and other gangs of organised criminals?

[Mrs Villiers]

We have been working with the NCA, Minister Ford and the Police Service of Northern Ireland to ensure that the NCA can do everything possible to help Northern Ireland, within the constraints of being able to operate only within the devolved field. It is able to do some work on human trafficking, for example, and significant effort has gone into ensuring that it can take over the cases involving proceeds of crime that it inherited from the Serious Organised Crime Agency. We are doing all that we can to maximise the support that the NCA can give in Northern Ireland, within the limitations set by the Executive.

Hallett Report

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

As I have said, while doing everything possible to reduce the risk that an abuse-of-process defence might succeed in future cases, today’s statement cannot eliminate that risk. If a case were brought against an OTR with a letter, it is certainly possible that they could seek to rely on that letter. What I am saying very clearly is that it is no longer safe to rely on those letters. What is more difficult to deal with is reliance that has already taken place. That is certainly something that the courts can and will take into account, but I am confident that this statement does everything possible to try to ensure that an abuse-of-process defence does not succeed in the future. The Government are being completely clear that it is no longer safe to rely on the letters, and such reliance is obviously a key plank of an abuse-of-process defence, as it was a key plank of the Downey judgment.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I thank the Secretary of State most sincerely for her statement and for the strength of purpose with which she delivered it. I am curious—I am sure other right hon. and hon. Members are, too—whether the Secretary of State has received information from the police, or indeed the intelligence services, that would indicate that recipients of comfort letters have already absconded again to the Republic of Ireland. If so, will that information be shared with the newly established oversight board, including with the advisers who will be in attendance in a supervisory capacity?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am afraid that I do not feel it would be appropriate to comment on individual cases or to share that kind of information. I would emphasise, however, that the oversight board to which the hon. Lady has referred is looking at all matters relating to the OTR scheme. While entirely respecting the independence of the police and prosecuting authorities, we are determined to ensure that we do not make the same mistakes again and that all those who have a role or an interest in these matters are looking carefully at how we take forward the Hallett recommendations. There will be a frank and full sharing of information within that policy board between the police and the Northern Ireland Office.

Massereene Barracks Shooting 2009

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)]

For my constituents Mehmet Azimkar and Geraldine Ferguson, the horrific murder of Fusilier Drummer Lee Rigby would have been painfully reminiscent of the gunning down of two other unarmed young soldiers outside their barracks five years ago. Although Lee Rigby’s killers have been caught and, rightly, imprisoned for life, the murderers of Sapper Cengiz Patrick Azimkar and Sapper Mark Quinsey are still out there. It is clear to me, as it is to this family and their supporters, that justice is yet to be found in this case. Public attention may have drifted, but the families remember.

I stand here today to raise unanswered questions that have arisen from the investigation into the murders outside the Massereene Barracks in County Antrim, Northern Ireland, on Saturday 7 March 2009. Sapper Patrick Azimkar grew up in Wood Green in London. He was the son of a Turkish Cypriot builder and a mother of both Catholic and Protestant heritage. Patrick avoided the temptations by which many young men in my constituency are led astray. At first, he pursued his talents as a young footballer, and he even tried out for his local team, Tottenham Hotspur. Instead of pursuing a football career, however, he signed up to the armed forces.

Patrick’s family have said that he found a sense of purpose and direction from becoming a soldier. His fellow soldiers talk of his sense of fun, his energy, his motivation and his ambition. Patrick joined 25 Field Squadron, 38 Engineer Regiment, Royal Engineers, and he served in Kenya before being posted to his regiment’s permanent base in Northern Ireland. When he died aged only 21, Patrick was just hours from flying out to Afghanistan to serve in southern Helmand.

Sapper Mark Quinsey, who was 23 when he died, was Patrick’s colleague and friend. He came from Birmingham and joined the Army at the age of 19. He had recently qualified as an electrician at the Royal School of Military Engineering. He was survived by his mother, father and loving sister. His mother, Pamela Brankin, sadly died last year, having never recovered from the loss of her son.

Operation Banner, under which the UK deploys troops in Northern Ireland, ended in July 2007. The soldiers were, therefore, based in Northern Ireland with their regiment on only a temporary basis before being deployed overseas. To be clear, they were not deployed within Northern Ireland. On a Saturday evening, the two ordinary young men, who had no interest or involvement in the politics of Northern Ireland, were gunned down in a volley of bullets by two gunmen clad in balaclavas and using assault rifles, in a barbaric attack that was later claimed by the Real IRA.

The soldiers were off duty and unarmed. They were leaving their barracks for a moment to collect a pizza, before flying out to join their fellow soldiers on deployment in Afghanistan. The gunmen showed a cold, calculated ruthlessness in the murder, deliberately shooting the young men a second time even when they lay on the ground. Six other men, including the two pizza delivery men, three other soldiers and a guardsman, were also targeted, and three were severely wounded in the attack. Those watching CCTV footage of the killing noted that Sapper Azimkar pushed a fellow soldier to the ground to save him, before being shot himself.

I am no expert on Northern Ireland; I represent the concerns of constituents in London. Although the conflict in the region is a large and important part of the United Kingdom’s history, it feels remote from my constituents. However, it has touched the life of a family in my constituency. We must remember that the Real IRA murdered the young men years after the Good Friday agreement was signed and troops were removed from Northern Ireland’s streets. Although we wish for enduring peace in Northern Ireland, it must not be achieved at the cost of justice for such families.

The first issue I would like to raise concerns security at the base. At the time of the murder of Patrick and Mark, and the attempted murder of six other young men, Northern Ireland was at its highest security level for more than a decade. Following thwarted attacks on police officers and police headquarters, special branch had issued warnings of an imminent attack. Only the previous week, the level of threat had been raised from substantial to severe, and all serving police officers had returned to wearing flak jackets on a regular basis. There are, therefore, questions surrounding the level of security at the base.

Why was the base protected by one guardsman provided by the devolved Northern Ireland Security Guard Service—a security service armed only with pistols—rather than by the soldiers themselves? The lone civilian guardsman on duty was significantly outgunned and outnumbered, and he dived for cover rather than firing back at the terrorists. Why has the Northern Ireland Security Guard Service not been held to account for its failure to protect the soldiers? Did the service understand the increased risk? What measures had it taken to protect the base in the light of the heightened threat level?

Security at the base appears to have been lax. Soldiers had formed a routine of ordering fast food to the barracks gates, and they made approximately 20 orders a week from local fast food outlets. The barracks are close to the main road, so all that the killers had to do was to lay in wait for the young men as they collected the food. Why, during a heightened security alert, were young recruits allowed to walk out of the base, unarmed but highly visible in their Army desert fatigues, to collect pizzas from outside the entrance?

The Army came to the decision that convening a service inquiry would serve no useful purpose because there were no new lessons to be learned. Patrick’s parents feel that the decision to use civilians on security was politically motivated, with the aim of making the Army’s presence less visible. They query the effectiveness of a security guard, who was probably on minimum wage, protecting the base when a soldier on duty protecting his friends and colleagues might have been able to do more. The family are concerned that the debate over Army security focused too much on the political concerns in Northern Ireland, and that effective security at the base was sacrificed to appease local politicians’ concerns.

I understand that following the attack, the number of Northern Ireland Security Guard Service personnel was increased, and that they were issued with body armour, helmets and long-barrelled weapons in place of sidearms. That is a step in the right direction, but it was taken far too late.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

As a public representative from a Northern Ireland constituency—although the Massereene massacre, as it has become known, did not happen in my constituency—may I reassure the right hon. Gentleman and other Members of the House that Catholics, Protestants and those of no faith came out in their hundreds and hundreds to demonstrate against the murder of the two young soldiers? We were greatly upset, and it was not politically motivated from the Unionist community, I can assure him.

[Mr Lammy]

The family has drawn some comfort from the warmth of feeling that they have received from the community. The hon. Lady’s comments are well made.

The second issue that I would like to raise is the quality of the prosecution’s case during the subsequent trials. The work carried out by Forensic Science Northern Ireland and crime scene officers was incredibly poor. The collection of evidence was especially sloppy, and the performance of forensic experts in the witness box was woeful.

Two men, Brian Shivers and Colin Duffy, were prosecuted for the murders. Colin Duffy is a dissident republican who had previously been linked to the murder of another soldier, John Lyness, in 1995, and the murders of two police constables in 1997. His DNA was found on a seatbelt buckle and in the tip of a latex glove in the burned-out getaway car that was used in the attack. He was surely involved. Nevertheless, he was acquitted at trial. Since then, he has been arrested in connection with the murder of prison officer David Black and charged with terrorism offences. Brian Shivers aided and abetted the murders by setting fire to the getaway car. He was originally found guilty of the murders and sentenced to 25 years in prison.

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[Mr Lammy]

The House has heard those remarks and the manner in which they were made.

The crime scene officers did not remove the matches from the car until four days after the attack. The two matches found on the back seat of the Vauxhall Cavalier were then placed in the same bag, which increased the possibility of cross-contamination of DNA and assisted the defence in attacking the forensic evidence at the trial. The half-rear seat was folded down over the matches by the crime scene investigator, potentially transferring DNA.

The forensic experts also failed to change gloves between internal and external examination of one of the phones. They rightly understood that the possibility of transferring DNA via the gloves was miniscule, but by failing to change their gloves they showed naivety about building an airtight case that they could defend in court. Indeed, their evidence in the witness box was lamentably poor. One crime scene investigator even insisted on oath that he was not in the car; however, his DNA had been found inside. Brian Shivers did not even have to give an account of why his DNA was in the car; instead, he used his right to remain silent. The defence exploited those loopholes and, as a result, Brian Shivers walked free.

Others connected to the murder by DNA—Dominic McGlinchey Jr. and Declan McGlinchey—have not even faced charges. Only one person has been successfully convicted in connection with the murders of Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey. In November 2013, Old Bailey bomber Marian McGlinchey pleaded guilty to providing the mobile phone used to claim responsibility for the Real IRA murders of the two soldiers. She received only a suspended sentence and has never revealed to whom she supplied the mobile phone.

The third issue is the process of justice in Northern Ireland. No jury has ever looked at the evidence against Colin Duffy and Brian Shivers. It appears to the families of the victims that Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey received a lower level of justice simply because they were killed in Northern Ireland rather than elsewhere in the UK. They rightly ask whether the outcome might have been different if 12 ordinary members of the public had seen the evidence.

Mr Justice Hart presided over the first trial in 2011 and Mr Justice Deeny presided over the retrial last year. The family strongly suspect that Mr Justice Hart, a man as human as any of us, may have felt intimidated or afraid to draw a guilty verdict against Colin Duffy, who has a far-reaching, powerful reputation in Northern Ireland as a terrorist. It was Mr Justice Hart’s last case before retirement and the family fear that, in the twilight of his career, he was worried about his security when he no longer had all the protections afforded to a judge. The families of murder victims should be able to trust the courts that pursue the murderers. Such questions would not even have to be raised if a jury had tried the case.

[Lady Hermon]

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for taking a second intervention from me. During the appalling bloodshed of more than 30 years of troubles in Northern Ireland, the legal profession and the judges suffered just like the rest of the community. A number of them were murdered or intimidated, and a number of family members were also murdered or intimidated. I have to defend the integrity, honesty and courage of every single judge in Northern Ireland, including those who intend to retire, and I cannot possibly let that go without a remark.

[Mr Lammy]

I understand why the hon. Lady wants to make those remarks, but she will understand the parents’ desire to put this on the record and my responsibility as their Member of Parliament to make it absolutely clear that jury trials are fundamental to the nature of our democracy. The departure of jury trials in Northern Ireland to this day is something that this House should continue to revisit. We are all frail human beings, whatever our religious persuasion.

In the rest of the UK, jury trials for murder are the norm. Diplock trials were introduced in Northern Ireland in 1973 for serious criminal cases connected with the troubles. Ostensibly a temporary measure, such trials suspended the right to trial by jury in favour of a single judge. They were officially abolished in Northern Ireland in 2007, but single-judge trials continue to this day.

Sixteen years on from the Good Friday agreement, is it not time to restore the primacy of the jury and use technological advancements and other powers to ensure that jury members are protected? Could we not find other ways to try to ensure a more just system for victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland? Those who might argue that a jury’s safety and integrity cannot be guaranteed in County Antrim should consider why we should distinguish between a defendant with gangland connections in London and the accused who stands trial in Northern Ireland.

I asked the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions earlier this year about the ongoing use of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland. He told me that the provisions are up for renewal in 2015. Those who look to renew the use of such trials should take note of the impact on the victims’ families, as in this case. The considerations of a family who feel that their son received a lesser justice because he was not killed on the mainland should and must be taken into account when deciding whether to exercise such a provision. Trials by jury are fair, efficient and effective. A jury is an integral and indispensable part of the criminal justice system, and I urge the Government to bear that in mind when the use of such trials is reconsidered next year.

I am humbled by the strength and dignity that my constituents Mehmet Azimkar and Geraldine Ferguson have shown over the past five years while pursuing answers to those questions. This couple, who have experienced and endured sorrow and loss with true fortitude and with such dignity, persevered in ensuring that their voices are heard by the very highest levels in Government, the judiciary and the Army. I thank on their behalf the many people who have supported them over the past five years, including: their friends and families for their unending love and support; Lee Burton, the family’s Army visiting officer; the Police Service of Northern Ireland; the people of Antrim town who, as we have heard, are committed to keeping Patrick and Mark’s memories alive; and Kevin Hart of the Royal British Legion’s independent inquest advice service, whose unstinting support made it possible for the family’s voices to be heard. Of course, I also mention Patrick’s brother.

Parents can never be expected to find peace when their son has been taken from them, but the families of Sapper Azimkar and Sapper Quinsey have endured suffering and heartbreak that should have been avoided. I hope that the Government will hear their voices and help them, five years on, to bring some sense of closure.

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[Dr Murrison]

That is clearly the firm intent of both the Westminster Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. Violent terrorists, wherever they are, must be called to account. I know that all the agencies that I have mentioned, and others, are bent on ensuring that such wicked individuals are brought to account and face the full rigour of the law, wherever they are.

[Lady Hermon]

I am most grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Can he please give a categorical assurance that none of those suspected of involvement in the murder of those two courageous young British soldiers at Massereene are sitting with a letter, familiarly referred to as a comfort letter, signed by the Northern Ireland Office and sent to on-the-runs?

[Dr Murrison]

Given that they have faced trial, one must assume that they are not. However, I cannot tell the hon. Lady whether those names appear on the list of 200 people issued with such letters. Given that they have faced trial, it seems unlikely to me.

Before I come to the burden of my response to the right hon. Gentleman’s points—

High Court Judgment (John Downey)

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I am very happy to take that on board and I will deal with it in detail when I come to that part of my speech. I have listened to a lot of the commentary and the only allegation out there about the Democratic Unionist party is one reference in one tiny section of one book. Interestingly enough, it was never mentioned in the memoirs of the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). I will come on to it later, but what it refers to is not the on-the-runs administrative scheme, but the issue of whether the Government were going to introduce legislation. It came after the talks at Leeds castle. The Government intended to introduce legislation and we made it very clear that that was a matter for them, but that we would not sign up or subscribe to it and that we would oppose it in the House of Commons, as we did, and table amendments to it. It did not relate to the administrative on-the-runs scheme, which was done as a dirty deal behind the backs of everybody concerned. I will come on to the issue in more detail in due course.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for taking another intervention so quickly. Will he take this opportunity to confirm that the Downey judgment makes it perfectly clear that Mr Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Fein, requested an invisible process to deal with on-the-runs, and that is precisely what he got—a deal in secret?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

He is described as many things in Northern Ireland—most famously, of course, as the Old Bailey bomber. This is the man who was given the letters by Government officials and others—we are yet to hear the precise details—and who then communicated their contents to the people concerned. The night after that was revealed, he said on “The Nolan Show” on television that Unionists were kept in the dark because if they had known there would have been a crisis, so Sinn Fein itself admits that Unionists were kept in the dark and that there was an invisible process. The attempts by some people to now say, “Well, everybody knew about it,” simply do not wash. Indeed, a colleague of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long)—he is her party leader—who just happens to be the Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland, with responsibility for the administration of justice and policing, has made it very clear that he knew nothing about it either. I will come on to that later. The claims that people knew about the scheme do not wash.

There was considerable shock at the revelations, at the fact that justice had been denied, at what people saw as the rule of law being undermined and at the behind-the-scenes nature of the scheme. There is still considerable anger in the Province about the way in which things have come out. Sinn Fein has alleged that it is some kind of synthetic anger, that this is an issue about which people should not be too concerned and that it is not really an issue at all because everybody knew about it. That simply does not wash either. The anger in the community—not just on the Unionist side, but across the board—is real and palpable. People feel that justice has been denied and that the scheme has been characterised by years of deceit and is, in effect, devoid of any kind of morality.

We have made it clear throughout that we opposed and continue to oppose any kind of amnesty. Indeed, I think there is consensus across the House that there should be no amnesty for past crimes and terrorism in Northern Ireland. When we raise the issue of amnesty, we do not do so in a narrow legal sense; we are clear that there should be a proper pursuit and interrogation of suspects, and questioning leading to prosecution where evidence is available. In other words, not only should there not be any kind of amnesty in law passed by this House; there should not be any kind of effective or de facto amnesty by the back door either. Although it is said that this is not an amnesty—I understand what has been said—the reality is that in the case of Downey, for him in his circumstances, it amounted to an amnesty. That is the reality.

We know from the police and others that some 228 people were considered under the scheme. When the Secretary of State speaks, I would be grateful if she could update the House on the precise number of people involved. Our understanding is that the scheme began in 2000-01 and that 174 letters had been issued by 2002. The scheme came to a stop for a while and a Bill to grant amnesty to OTRs was introduced in 2005, but ended up collapsing—it did not go anywhere because of strong opposition from so many people. Members of Sinn Fein were in favour of the Bill, but when they came under attack because it also applied to members of the security forces and others they decided that they wanted an approach based on an amnesty for terrorists and their people, but not for soldiers, police officers and others. It was a one-sided approach and on that basis the legislative approach collapsed.

[Lady Hermon]

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm to the House exactly when the Bill was withdrawn—I believe it was in January 2006—and perhaps look at the sequence of events? Three days after his Christmas lunch, the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, wrote a confidential letter to the president of Sinn Fein to say that he would ensure that the administrative scheme was expedited so that any remaining OTR cases were dealt with before he left office—presumably, within six months.

[Mr Dodds]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady, because I do not now need to go through the next part of my speech. She has outlined the sequence of events immediately after the legislation was withdrawn, and she is absolutely correct. The administrative scheme was ramped up, and the police set up a special unit to deal with it and look at all the cases. When the coalition Government came into office in 2010, the scheme was continued. As we now know, 38 cases have been considered in the period since 2010.

As I have said, there were 228 cases in total, and I understand that 192 letters were issued. There are other statistics for the numbers that were returned, for the people who were arrested and for the people who were investigated. I would be grateful if the Secretary of State updated us on the precise details.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Gentleman has put it very well. Documentation and papers relating to the civil servant’s time in the Northern Ireland Office would not be made available to the current Minister of Justice, but it beggars belief that no reference to the scheme could be made anywhere at all by any official. As the hon. Gentleman put it so well, it was because there was a preciousness about ensuring that the secrecy of the deal was maintained.

I am glad that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is also reviewing the process that led to the issuing of the letters. A team of 16 detectives has been assigned to the review. It will investigate the circumstances of each of those who received a letter. It will also re-examine the original checks that were carried out by the specialist PSNI team to which I referred earlier, which led to the Public Prosecution Service being told that none of the individuals was wanted. The police have made it clear that investigations into killings and other incidents may be reopened if mistakes or new evidence are uncovered.

It is important to note that all the inquiries and investigations that are under way are complementary. They will work together. Some of them will concentrate on the more political aspects and ramifications of this dirty deal; some of them will consider the legal side of it and look at the documentation and papers; and some of them, no doubt including the Justice Committee, will want to probe what the status of the scheme was post-devolution, when policing and justice were devolved. The police will look at the matter in the terms that I have just indicated. All the inquiries and investigations are complementary, all of them are important and all of them must get to the truth. They must find a way forward that implements what the Secretary of State indicated in her statement in February after this was announced, which is that there can be no bar on the questioning, prosecution and investigation of cases, and that they must be brought to court.

I want to talk briefly about how this whole issue has been handled in respect of informing Members of Parliament and the public. I raised a point of order on 5 March, in which I said that

“examination of the parliamentary record going back over a number of years indicates that there were occasions on which the House may have been misled by ministerial statements, whether oral or written.”—[Official Report, 5 March 2014; Vol. 576, c. 905.]

I know that it is not the responsibility of current Ministers to speak for previous Ministers, but it is important that we hear in this House, on the record, from those previous Ministers whether they stand over the statements that they made in this House. When one reads those statements now, it is very clear that there was certainly an economy in the truthfulness of what was said.

I refer, for instance, to the question that was asked on 11 October 2006 by Peter Robinson to the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Neath:

“Although we welcome the earlier answer from the Minister of State that no legislation is to be brought before the House, will the Secretary of State reassure the House…that no other procedure will be used to allow on-the-run terrorists to return?”

The then Secretary of State answered:

“There is no other procedure.”—[Official Report, 11 October 2006; Vol. 450, c. 290.]

The hon. Member for North Down subsequently asked, on 1 March 2007,

“what measures the Government are considering to deal with ‘on the runs’ other than further legislation or an amnesty.”—[Official Report, 1 March 2007; Vol. 457, c. 1462W.]

The right hon. Member for Neath replied, “None.”

[Lady Hermon]

I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene on that point. He has quoted a reply that was given to me by the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). It is important to note the date of that reply, which was at the beginning of March 2007. We know from the Downey judgment that the first meeting of Operation Rapid within the PSNI was chaired by Norman Baxter on 7 February 2007. It is of considerable regret that the right hon. Member for Neath is not here today. However, may I say in his defence that, quite properly, he attended the funeral of his colleague and dear friend Tony Benn, and that he has a family commitment today?

[Mr Dodds]

rose—

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[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me so early in the debate, and I apologise to the House and to other hon. Members, particularly the Secretary of State, for the fact that I will not be able to remain in the Chamber for the whole debate owing to circumstances beyond my control. I am also grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for granting time to consider this issue today. It is a sensitive and serious matter, not just from a Northern Ireland perspective, but for the UK as a whole, given the way in which this scheme appears to have circumvented the will of Parliament and allowed others to circumvent due process under the law.

Let me put my remarks into context by setting out a number of points. Like the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), I agree that the centrality of victims in issues of justice and dealing with the past must be reflected, recognised and given respect. It is one thing to be honest with victims in Northern Ireland and tell them that they may never receive justice because of the passage of time or a lack of evidence, but it is another thing if, where people have the opportunity to pursue justice, it is denied to them, either by a process that is concocted as this one was, or by any other mechanism that seeks to prevent people from pursuing justice. Like others who have already spoken, I would oppose—as would my party—any form of amnesty.

When discussing this issue it is important that we do not seek to diminish in any way the progress that has been possible as a result of the wider peace process in Northern Ireland. All Members of the House, I think, value the progress that has been made over the past 15 years, and all want to see it furthered rather than regressed. However, it ought not to be peace at any price, and there must be some sense of moral foundation on which we move forward as a society. I believe that this process has failed to engender a sense of confidence among the Northern Ireland public that a moral compass was operating in the Northern Ireland Office at the time these issues were dealt with.

I recognise that all peace processes contain issues of transitional justice, where normal justice arrangements are in some way changed or altered to address specific circumstances. We accepted that in Northern Ireland—to varying degrees, I must say—and that it was done on a particular basis. However painful the early release schemes, they were endorsed by the public directly in the Good Friday agreement referendum. There were other cases of transitional justice where elected representatives endorsed a process. For example, there was limited immunity in the case of decommissioning, and because of the wider benefit of recovering those weapons it was accepted that they would not then be used for forensic testing in order to incriminate those who handed them over willingly. There was an acceptance by public representatives, on behalf of their constituents, that that was a fair, right and just thing to do. Equally, for the recovery of the remains of the disappeared, limited immunity was provided for those who gave information so that they would not incriminate themselves in doing so. The greater good being served was that those families who had suffered the horrendous torture of not knowing the final location of the remains of their families would perhaps be able to get some truth.

Those cases are distinct from this one, however, because they were either considered here openly in Parliament, with the acquiescence or at least the full knowledge of the political representatives who sat here, or endorsed in the Good Friday agreement by a public referendum. The issue we are discussing did not flow from the Good Friday agreement, and no amount of repetition will change that.

I remember voting for the Good Friday agreement, and how difficult it was to do so in the light of the early release scheme. It was one of the hardest things for me to swallow, as somebody who believes in the rule of law. I voted for that agreement, however, because I believed that it was in the greater good, as did the majority of people in Northern Ireland. No reference to the on-the-runs or any other issue of this nature was put to the people of Northern Ireland, and neither were they given the option to vote on that issue. For others to suggest that this scheme was a natural flow from the Good Friday agreement is absolutely false. It was not endorsed by the public or the representatives. More than that, when the tidy up was brought in to try to put this issue on some kind of statutory footing, Parliament rejected the attempt to extend the amnesty, which we now know has been given to those who received these letters, to other categories of person who may have been seeking similar comfort. Parliament rejected that, yet it went ahead.

The allegation is that, without the letters, the peace process would not have survived. No one denies that the issue of on-the-runs did not exist. The question was how it could be addressed in a manner that would keep the principles and foundations of justice intact. At that time, the Alliance party proposed a tribunal process, in which people would have their cases reinvestigated and tried in open court, but they would have to present themselves in person to face justice and their alleged victims to do so. My party has been consistent that no widespread amnesty, such as that floated by the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland, is an acceptable way forward. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. I go further and say that two wrongs will not make a right. The answer in this case is not to say, “Let us universally wipe the slate clean”, but to resolve it so that justice can be done fairly and squarely for everyone in Northern Ireland.

[Lady Hermon]

Will the hon. Lady take this opportunity to put on record her candid assessment of the damage done to public confidence in the prosecution service and—I say this with great sadness—in the Police Service of Northern Ireland by the ramifications and revelations of the Downey case?

[Naomi Long]

I am more than happy to do so.

The timing is significant. Over recent years, there has been a perception in the loyalist community in particular that justice acts in a differential way, and not to their benefit. I have not shared that perception, but I am hugely aggrieved that, as a result of the case, it has been compounded, because no loyalists and no members of the security service had access to the scheme. Only members of Sinn Fein or people who came through Sinn Fein had access to the scheme. In fact, there are complaints from other republicans who fell out of favour with the Sinn Fein leadership that even they were not able to access the scheme.

Therefore, justice in Northern Ireland was acting in a partial way during that process, which has undermined public confidence and further damaged people’s respect for the PSNI by implication—the PSNI was asked to do that job by the Government of the day, and did as it was asked to do, as is its duty, but its role in the process has tainted the public view of it. It has been incredibly damaging, and a huge amount of work will need to be done as a result to recover people’s confidence in their politicians, in the justice system and in the wider peace process.

That is why, from the beginning of the negotiations, the Alliance party was clear that side dealing and secret dealing would end up being the undoing of the peace process, not its underpinning, because the truth will out, and when it does, the ramifications, having been kept secret in the first place, are as significant as the deal originally done. It is better to face the truth and deal with the consequences of failure there and then than it is to continue a charade and a false perception of progress, which is shaken to its core when such things later emerge. I feel very strongly that the case has undermined people’s confidence in the process, and that a lot of work needs to be done to restore it.

On the inquiries, other hon. Members have outlined the variety of inquiries taking place in the Assembly, the Policing Board and the House of Commons Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, but I want briefly to consider the inquiry being undertaken by Lady Justice Hallett. That inquiry was always to be narrowly focused and swift, which is to be welcomed. However, I am slightly concerned by the increasingly narrow focus of the inquiry. We would be well advised to keep that under a watching brief. In letters issued to Lord Thomas by Julian King, director general of the Northern Ireland Office, Mr King appears to very narrowly circumscribe the role of Lady Justice Hallett and how far her investigations can go. For example, Mr King has advised that she will not need to look at every individual case as part of her inquiry. For me, that raises questions about who will do the sampling of cases she will look at and on what basis the sampling will take place. How will we ensure that she has the opportunity to look at the different wording in the letters that were issued over the period? The wording did change. Some people received letters saying that unless new evidence was discovered, they would not be requested for trial, but others were told that they would not be requested unless new cases were discovered, which is entirely different in terms of importance. How will we know that every variety of letter and text will be thoroughly investigated unless each case is looked at in detail? Indeed, without reviewing each case, how can we know whether there are errors in other individual letters? Only by looking at each case and the evidence on which those assertions were made can we know whether any of the others were erroneous.

The Downey ruling and the stay based on it make clear that they are not based on the fact that the letter was issued in error. In fact, the reading of the judgment suggests that the ruling was not even based on the content of the letter. The content of the letter coupled with the testimonies of the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), Jonathan Powell and Gerry Kelly, who set out their view of the intent behind the letter, were important in the ruling. That is hugely important, because—clearly—the intent was that those people would not face prosecution. That was taken into account in the judgment.

It is understandable that people want to know who knew what and when, and what the process was, not least my colleague the Northern Ireland Justice Minister, particularly given that the scheme continued to operate under devolution, interfering—that is the only word I can suggest—with the devolved responsibilities of the Justice Department and other devolved structures of government. It is important to know that, but it is more important to know the import of the remaining letters. The Secretary of State’s view remains—she has made it clear—that those letters ought not to be treated as an amnesty, but it remains to be seen how a court would view them in the light of the judgment, which was not appealed, and in the light of the evidence given in the judgment of the intent of the letters at the time. Will saying that they no longer count retrospectively count for anything in a court of law? We wait to find out whether they count for anything or not.

Having said that, it is crucial that we decide where we want to go from here. Victims who for reasons beyond our control may never receive any justice are still out there. Some might receive justice, but many will not. We have said for a long time to successive Secretaries of State that we require a comprehensive process to deal with those issues in a manner that ensures that openness, integrity, truth and justice are placed at the core of our peace. The cases should not be treated as commodities to be traded in our political process, corroding respect for the rule of law both within the process and within the communities we represent.

We have in the past cautioned against side deals and their toxic effect. We now need to focus on getting to the truth and on learning the lessons of flawed process and side dealing. We need to refocus our community and find that comprehensive way forward on dealing with the past, for which we have called for some time. I agree with the right hon. Member for Belfast North, who said that the Haass process—for want of a better terminology —needs to move forward with new vigour, because we need to provide answers on the footing of openness, transparency, honesty and justice, for those families who still await the outcome. We need to bear in mind the hurt and aggravation of the families of four soldiers who will never know the outcome because of the application of double jeopardy in the Downey ruling.

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[Nigel Mills]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. One thing that needs to come out of the various inquiries is what the current legal status of the letters is in the light of the judgment and, if we are not happy with that legal status, how we can get to a legal position that we are happy with. It might be possible—I am not a lawyer; I do not know—for the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State, the Attorney-General or the Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland to write to every recipient of such a letter and say, “Just to be clear, you can’t rely on these things to avoid prosecution if there’s evidence that justifies a prosecution.”

This all prompts the question: what was the point of the Historical Enquiries Team—now part of the Police Service of Northern Ireland—going back and re-investigating all those old cases if, I assume not to its knowledge, 200 or so people whom it might have been investigating as part of that process had a letter saying that past evidence would not be used to bring a prosecution? What was the point of that process?

[Lady Hermon]

Will the hon. Gentleman also comment on the odd timing of Mr Downey’s letter? We know from the judgment that it was signed off on 20 July 2007. I would briefly remind the House that in 2007 we had a successful First Minister, Ian Paisley senior, sitting with the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness. Indeed, so good was their working relationship at the time—they took up office at the beginning of May 2007—that they were unfortunately nicknamed the “Chuckle Brothers”. However, the peace process in Northern Ireland was very secure in the early spring of 2007. Sinn Fein had come on to the policing board, and the IRA had decommissioned in 2005. What was there to save in the peace process by signing off Mr Downey’s letter in July 2007?

[Nigel Mills]

I suspect the hon. Lady knows the position far better than I, so there is not much need for me to add anything to what she has said.

To return to the status of the letters, if we do not like it, we need to discover the process for, if anything, restoring the position to what we think it should be—that they do not confer any kind of amnesty. If that requires a Bill to come before this House, perhaps we should do that. Given the devolution of justice, it might require something to go through the Assembly. I suspect that that might be a political challenge under the circumstances, but it is important that one of the outcomes of the inquiries is getting the legal position to where it should be, in the interests of fair and transparent justice for all the victims, on all sides.

I do not see how we can have a process that applies to only one community and not the security services. I think that was a grave mistake in entering into this process. Clearly it would have been better to have a full debate on the amnesty. We could all have had a vote on an amnesty—if it had not gone through, everyone should have been prosecuted where there was evidence; if it had gone through, it would be put behind people. That is clearly a debate that can be had now—it was had nearly a decade ago—but we have to take the assurances of all the Northern Ireland Members who are here for this debate that that is not something that would be welcomed in Northern Ireland. There is no desire for that amnesty.

I have no great knowledge of Northern Ireland law. However, having sat through some inquiries on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland that looked at the equalities position in Northern Ireland and the power of the law to prevent one community from being favoured over another, I cannot see any way under Northern Irish law that there could be a process with any legal effect that so obviously favoured one community over the other. If I was a loyalist who feared prosecution or who perhaps was being prosecuted, I might be arguing and saying, “Wait a minute, there’s been this process for one side that ought to have applied equally. I should have had the right to apply for that letter. If I had been given that letter, I could have my prosecution stayed.” Indeed, I believe that might be the subject of a case. If I was a member of the security services who might face prosecution, I would be making that exact point as well: “Wait a minute. Why wasn’t I given the chance to write in 2000 and ask if I was being investigated and whether there was any evidence against me? If I had received my letter, I could have had my prosecution stayed.”

We have created a mess, and not just for the recipients of these letters. We might not like the position they are in now, and in every prosecution of someone from the security services or the loyalist side, I am sure the first thing their lawyer will do is try to get their prosecution stayed on the grounds that the process did not apply equally to all members of the community. We have created a mess, and the actions of the then Prime Minister and Secretary of State—which, as is clear from the judgment, deliberately created a process that was designed to achieve that—are thoroughly shameful to British justice.

This is perhaps one of the bleakest episodes that we will ever see, because it has tarnished a peace process that did not need tarnishing—a process that is working and needs to work. It was heartening that the leader of the Democratic Unionist party was clear earlier that he did not want the institutions torn down—he did not see that as a solution or something that would give a political advantage—and that the institutions need to be made to work. Whatever the outcome of the inquiries, I hope that all the parties stick by that. The best way forward is for the process to advance and the institutions to get stronger, not to try to unravel them, no matter how shameful this case was.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The Downey case unfortunately brings into sharp focus some of the problems that we have as a society in dealing with the past. As I said in an intervention, we are in the unfortunate position of knowing that if the Downey case had not materialised, we would still be oblivious to the pernicious influence of the administrative scheme in Northern Ireland.

Since the Downey case, those of us who were not in possession of knowledge of the scheme have been criticised by those in Sinn Fein, who say that had we been informed in the run-up to any agreement on the scheme, we would have opposed it, and that was part of the reason for our being kept in the dark. After that was seen to be somewhat obtuse and ludicrous, the same people in Sinn Fein said that we knew about the scheme all the time. They tried to quote various judgments that might have made some passing reference to a scheme that required to be carried out. However, there never was any reference in the public domain, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) said, anything that was put in the public domain, either in the House or outside, precluded a scheme of this nature. In fact, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), the former Secretary of State, made it absolutely clear that there was no scheme. Full stop. Period.

[Lady Hermon]

May I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the characteristic features that were mentioned by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain)? I am sorry that he is not here this afternoon, and I have explained why I understand he cannot be here. The Downey judgment, which is now in the public domain, contains written testimony submitted by the right hon. Gentleman, who said:

“The procedure was in a number of ways wholly unprecedented.”

Another characteristic was that

“the scheme progressed in a non public manner. Confidentiality was maintained for the individuals who submitted their names to the scheme; neither the names of the applicants nor the outcome of the applications were subjected to publicity.”

That is in the public domain, so for Sinn Fein to claim that we all knew about this and that we all have amnesia about it now is absolutely untrue and very insulting.

[Mr Campbell]

I thank the hon. Lady for that very enlightening quotation, which simply proves the point that what unites people right across Northern Ireland—with the exception of those who used to advocate violence and excuse or defend it—is that we are all rightly appalled at the secret nature of the scheme.

It has also been said—others have alluded to this—that members of the Policing Board were in some way briefed, but when we examine the record, we see that no one was ever briefed on such an administrative scheme. Of course, everyone knew that there was an outstanding issue with on-the-runs. There were those who said, “This matter must be resolved,” and those of us who were determined to say, “If it comes before Parliament and there is any possibility of us having some input into a resolution that means giving people immunity for what they have done in the past, we will resolutely oppose it.” That much is absolutely clear.

Others have mentioned the Eames-Bradley report, and the fact that one of its authors, Mr Bradley, said that people knew about the scheme. However, when we look into the matter, it is absolutely clear to us that, whoever may have been informed privately, no one was informed publicly. There was no public reference whatsoever to a scheme of this nature.

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[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I join others in thanking the Backbench Business Committee for acceding to the request that I tabled for this debate. It was of course tabled by the complement of sitting MPs for Northern Ireland and supported by the Chair of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs.

The parties that sought this debate interpret some of the issues in the background differently, and perhaps will have some differences of emphasis and interpretation in terms of the implications. What absolutely unites all of us was our frustration at how we all appeared to be both insulted and implicated by the terms in which some people responded to this judgment and the fact of it. I understand why he cannot be here today, but I include in that the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). The rest of us were not all in on this in the way he and, sometimes, Sinn Fein has implied. We have seen the adoption of contradictory positions. On the one hand, Sinn Fein has said that everyone knew all about this, and that this is an entirely confected concern now and, on the other hand, it has said that it was out of sensitivity to other people that it was secret and had to be done in that way.

When one reads the whole judgment, it is absolutely clear how long and persistent Sinn Fein was in pursuit of the case for a scheme. It is also clear that a scheme was running from pretty early on. It went through various different mutations, but it was never enough. There was always the need for something more and for something else. What comes through is that in all the negotiations between Sinn Fein and the British and Irish Governments, Sinn Fein was usually negotiating for itself and its people. It was never about the broad interests of the people or the agreement and its implementation. It was never about the Irish democratic interest or about the interests of the nationalist community in Northern Ireland; it was about Sinn Fein and its people. That is what comes through consistently in the evidence.

Contrary to the way in which the media have tended to treat this issue since the court case, it is also clear that the court rested most of its judgment not so much on the content of the letter but on the import of the letter based on the evidence provided in the affidavits from, among others, the right hon. Member for Neath and Jonathan Powell. The two key people who gave evidence to the court that helped to bring about the judgment then condemned and criticised the rest of us, in the media and in other outpourings, for our reaction to it, for questioning its implications and for raising issues in relation to the background.

Let us be clear: the right hon. Gentleman has rested a lot on the fact that it was publicly known that there was a Bill in 2005. Yes, there was a Bill in 2005. The Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill—misnamed the “on-the-runs” Bill—went far beyond the issue of on-the-runs. It was not just that it provided for a scheme that we now know about, except that it included loyalists and members of the security forces. It went far further and deeper than that. It was a deeply offensive and insulting scheme that used terms such as “special prosecution” to dress up the fact that people were basically going through a process for immunity—they did not even have to go to court to get that immunity; and they did not even have to apply for the certificate themselves. Of course, victims did not have to know about it. However, if something arose in relation to any case and someone wanted to compel a witness to appear, the witness had to appear. The person who was benefiting from the certificate would not have to appear. They would not have to spend a day in court or look a victim in the eye, but a victim who fundamentally disapproved of this whole bizarre, obscure and sick process for which the previous Government were ready to legislate in 2005 would have been compelled to appear on penalty of contempt. That is how strange it was.

We also must remember that the big scheme of 2005—the general scheme of amnesty—with its architecture of special tribunals, appeals commissioners and special prosecutors was never cited at the time by the Democratic Unionist party as a deal breaker on the way to what everyone knew was going to be an agreement that would see a restoration of devolution with Sinn Fein and the DUP in partnership in the Office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister. We all knew in 2005 that we were on the way to that. There had been the abortive comprehensive agreement in December 2004. We all knew that the talks were ongoing and that they involved the British and Irish Governments and Sinn Fein and the DUP. When this Bill appeared, people were rightly aghast, but the DUP did not make it a deal breaker. Other issues were deal breakers, such as how the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were to be appointed and about what was going to happen with north-south reviews. This scheme, the worst one that the British Government were prepared to legislate for, was not in itself a deal breaker. That is the point that Jonathan Powell might have been referring to in his book. Whether it is accurate to say that a letter had been sent to Ian Paisley, I do not know. I know that there are many other things in Jonathan Powell’s book that are not accurate. But I do know from when I was strongly opposing the Bill in Committee that the then DUP MP for East Belfast told me that he did not understand why I was investing so much political capital in trying to stop a Bill that was a done deal.

The DUP’s concern was to ensure that everyone knew that the deal was done under David Trimble, so that they could hang it around his neck. The constant misleading reference to Weston Park, which was made at the time of that Bill and in the very court case that led to the Downey judgment, has continued because the Government of the day contrived to say that everybody was in on it and that it was agreed by all parties at Weston Park. It was not agreed by all parties at Weston Park. First, all parties were not around the one table. Secondly, there was no agreement at Weston Park. The different parties were being talked to by the two Governments about different things. It was no way to run a process, and we loudly complained about it at the time. We said that there would be more side deals, sub deals and shabby and secret deals, which would end up corrupting the process. Those chickens have now come home to roost. It is not the case that this was agreed at Weston Park by us. When the two Governments published a paper after Weston Park that included reference to the on-the-runs issue, we made it clear that it was not part of the agreement and that we understood that people were making a case around an anomaly. We did not see it as part of the agreement as such.

Let us look at some of the arguments that have been made since this has become public. On the one hand, we hear from Government and others that these letters are not an amnesty; the right hon. Member for Neath has told us that the letters are not an amnesty. Yet he goes on to say that because these letters are now known about, there should be a general amnesty, including for the soldiers, loyalists and others who might possibly face charges in relation to Bloody Sunday. It is strange to say that the scheme is not an amnesty, but if it becomes publicly known then there should be an amnesty for everyone else.

If people did receive indications from the police and prosecuting authorities that there were no grounds for pursuing them and that there was no live interest in any possible case against them, I see that as entirely fair. If, however, as with the soldiers on Bloody Sunday, there is an inquiry on the basis of evidence, that has to take its course, just as it must for anybody else. I share people’s disgust at the way in which this scheme has been conducted—where it has been worked through as a Shinners list. One party goes to the police with a list of names and the list seems to grow all the time. When we first heard about the on-the-run scheme, we were told that it involved only a few dozen people. Now we know that it is many, many more. We said that there would be many more, but were told by Tony Blair and others that that was wrong. Sinn Fein, which says that it believes in an Ireland of equals, has complained about political policing. It has criticised some investigations into offences since 1998 and has said that those investigations amounted to political policing, even though they were driven by evidence from victims.

If anything is political policing it is when the police end up providing a scheme on a parti pris basis, with one political party for a certain political motive, just because that has been brokered or directed by the Government of the day, and that is what has happened in this instance. I do not go along with the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), who I know takes a deep interest in our affairs, in saying that we now need to know the names of everybody who received letters. The fact is that the people who got letters were those whose names were not known to the police; they were not actually being sought in any way. Some people took themselves on the run for different reasons. They could have been supergrasses who thought that they would be at more risk. Some might have felt that they were at risk of being under duress to turn supergrass themselves on the very limited information that they might have had. Many people might have had their own reason for taking themselves outside the jurisdiction.

We never had an objection to a scheme that was about notifying people who were outside the jurisdiction that they could return without being in peril of arrest. When we said that and when we opposed the 2005 Bill, we were told by the then Government that that could not be done and it would not be enough, and Sinn Fein was saying the same.

[Lady Hermon]

May I press the hon. Gentleman a little further to clarify his position and that of his party? Victims’ families feel extremely aggrieved by the Downey judgment and the fact that they now know that suspected murderers, perhaps of their loved ones, have been given an administrative letter. If members of those families come forward and ask the Secretary of State to confirm whether someone who is alleged to have been involved in the murder of their loved ones has received one of the administrative letters, surely to goodness the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would support the release of that information to those families.

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[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

It is good to follow the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). I agree with everything he has said, and it was said with great passion.

The day that the Downey case fell in the courts in the Old Bailey was a very sad day indeed for British justice. Not only was a terrorist released on to the streets again, but the families who had lost loved ones were left with no recourse, because the Government have said there is no course of appeal, and the old wounds were all opened up again.

The exposure of the on-the-runs—or OTRs—administrative scheme and royal prerogatives was a stab in the heart of our British values of justice. The entire scheme was based upon a lie. Its creators claim that the early release scheme in the 1998 Good Friday agreement created an anomaly for those who were on the run. It did no such thing.

There were many fundamental problems with the Belfast agreement, and that is why the Democratic Unionist party rejected it and negotiated the new St Andrews agreement. However, it did have a clear mechanism for dealing with pre-1998 offences. A person could be brought before the court, receive a fair trial and if convicted, serve time in jail. The sentence would have been a mere two years, thanks to the likes of the Ulster Unionist party and the Progressive Unionist party, who signed the 1998 pact, but victims would at least have had their day in court and an opportunity for justice to be done.

This conspiracy drew in a range of our institutions by acts of commission and omission. Parliament was bypassed and misled. The legislation for OTRs at that stage was withdrawn because it was unwanted, both by Parliament and by the public. It was rejected because it was repugnant, but at least it offered some level of oversight and licensing to prevent reoffending. The scheme that the Government and the Northern Ireland Office came up with did none of that. Their contempt for Parliament included deliberately misleading it, and all the political parties except Sinn Fein, on how they were dealing with the OTRs.

[Lady Hermon]

Will the hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to confirm that although all the parties objected to the obnoxious Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill, the Government in power at the time would have pushed it through this House had it not been for Sinn Fein belatedly registering its opposition to it? It was dropped because of Sinn Fein’s opposition, not the overwhelming opposition of the general public, RUC widows and others.

[David Simpson]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right.

No unionist would be surprised by the role the Northern Ireland Office at the time had in the design and implementation of the scheme. At the time, its pandering to republicanism and its contempt for Unionism and its representatives were a permanent feature of direct rule. However, it drew the Police Service of Northern Ireland into its dirty deals as well. In a question to the assistant chief constable—I believe it was Assistant Chief Constable Harris—my colleague on the Policing Board, Mr Thomas Buchanan, asked about the OTRs. The PSNI’s response was this:

“At this moment in time, there are no on the runs we are aware of residing in Northern Ireland, and if there was information to suggest there were individuals who are wanted for crime living within this jurisdiction, then we would be very anxious to learn of that.”

That was in 2010. That gave the impression that there was a desire to catch criminals, but the scheme was doing exactly the opposite.

[David Simpson]

Yes, I certainly will. It was an absolute fantasy, as the evidence that has come from Policing Board representatives over the past few weeks confirms.

At the same time the OTR scheme was running, the PSNI established the Historical Enquiries Team. It was supposed to be a systematic approach to give every victim the opportunity for justice. The OTR scheme now draws a long shadow over all the HET’s work. Some will conclude that as one section of the PSNI tried to put people before a court, another was helping them to avoid it.

I will not speak for long, because I know that many other Members wish to speak.

[Lady Hermon]

Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene?

[David Simpson]

I apologise to the hon. Lady, but I want to move on and so will not give way, because many Members wish to speak.

The constituency I represent, as those who know Northern Ireland will understand, has a big contingent of security force personnel, both past and present. I know from my discussions with those individuals and organisations that they are totally disgusted by this scheme. Their attitude is that it took courage to put on the uniform of the Crown forces to defend the people and Northern Ireland, and if someone in their organisations stepped out of line, the full rigour of the law was brought upon them, and rightly so, they emphasised. But there are people who have been on the run and who went away on their holidays, and they were on the run because they were conscious of what they had done, and they got letters to give them reprieve. There is one law for one organisation and one law for another. It is despicable. It has opened a can of worms.

My last point is about the royal prerogatives. It would be interesting to discover who has received the royal prerogatives. Has Mr McGuinness? Has Mr Adams? Has Mr Kelly? I will go further. As the House knows, and as I have mentioned before, a number of members of my family were assassinated by the IRA. Have some of the people who carried out those murders received the royal prerogatives? It is disgusting. It is wrong. The victims out there are suffering. We promised them justice, but a lot of them will never see it. I am glad that both inquiries have now opened. We look forward to the Select Committee inquiry, which will go into every nook and cranny. We will, at some stage, discover who initiated this and when. We will discover who allowed this to happen.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

The revelation that has emerged about the so-called on-the-runs administrative scheme demonstrates that the previous Government committed a monstrous betrayal of the rights of many of their own citizens. They actively conspired with Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Provisional IRA, to deny hundreds of UK citizens the prospect of ever seeing justice for their relatives who had been murdered or injured as part of the terrorist campaign waged by the IRA in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain.

If it achieved nothing else, the collapse of the trial of Mr John Downey at least brought into the open the nefarious plot that our own Government had a hand in. It is now time to establish the full and complete truth about this scheme—who started it, who knew about it, and what other agencies were implicated in it. There are now no fewer than four separate inquiries of different natures taking place into this scheme. I welcome each and every one and believe that they can complement each other.

Before we progress to some of the details about this issue, it is worth looking at first principles. When they were elected to office in 1997, the Labour Government headed by Tony Blair vowed to be the most open and transparent Government that the country had ever had. To that end, they introduced, among other things, the Freedom of Information Act 2000, which was designed to ensure that, within the limits of data protection and national security, people would be able to scrutinise the work of those who governed them. It is contrary to that commitment to openness and transparency that no Government Minister ever saw fit to come to this House to inform Members of a dirty deal that was going on with Sinn Fein-IRA. It is at variance with the other actions of previous Governments in opening up Government to public accountability that they would keep such an important matter hidden from the scrutiny not only of this House but of Her Majesty’s Opposition and all the Northern Ireland parties—except, of course, Sinn Fein.

This raises an important political point. In Northern Ireland, progress is dependent on the mutual consent of both the major traditions that exist within our community. Despite the fact that there has been a consistent and vast majority in support of the Union throughout the duration of the troubles in Northern Ireland, Unionists recognise the necessity of finding accommodation with those who hold to the minority viewpoint with regard to Ulster’s constitutional position. In that context, the fact that the Government connived behind the backs of the Unionist community to deliver the scheme was bad enough, but their action also represented a betrayal of the constitutional nationalist tradition in Northern Ireland.

The Government acted in a secretive and one-sided fashion because they knew that had the details of this scheme been made public, they would not have been able to carry with them this House or the greater number of people from the Unionist and the nationalist backgrounds in Northern Ireland. They knew that they were doing wrong, and that is why they tried to hide their actions from everyone, except themselves as a Government and Sinn Fein. The Bible says:

“The wicked flee when no man pursueth”,

and that seems apt today. The Government fled from scrutiny but no one pursued because they tried to hide what they were doing—yet this sordid deal could not remain hidden for ever.

The secret scheme whereby one political party submitted names of individuals who were on the run to receive so-called comfort letters was not merely immoral but represented a subversion of justice and made a mockery of the rule of law. When clear and direct questions were asked previously, including of senior Ministers, we were not told about the scheme. For example, in October 2006, when we asked in the House whether such a procedure existed, we were told:

“There is no other procedure.”—[Official Report, 11 October 2006; Vol. 450, c. 290.]

On 1 March 2007, the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) asked

“what measures the Government are considering to deal with ‘on the runs’ other than further legislation or an amnesty.”—[Official Report, 1 March 2007; Vol. 457, c. 1462W.]

The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) replied: “None.” That one-word answer raises a serious question about the veracity of the then Government’s position. It is therefore right to establish whether the House of Commons has been deceived. We need to have the truth.

As I have said, different inquiries are looking into this matter and each complements the other. It is vital that together they exhaustively examine all the relevant information and question all the relevant people. It is now apparent that there were no lengths to which the Blair Administration would not go in the interests of political expediency. Those who carried out some of the most heinous crimes must never be allowed to escape responsibility for the suffering they caused. The victims of those crimes cannot escape their pain and they should have the right to bring the perpetrators to justice. The outcome of the Downey case was morally wrong. No one should be beyond the law.

[Lady Hermon]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. Although tributes have rightly been paid by Members on both sides of the House to the victims of the Hyde Park bombing in 1982—I add my condolences to those families and friends who lost loved ones—it is right to put it on the record that Mr Downey, who walked out of the Old Bailey, was suspected of involvement in not only the Hyde park bombing but the Enniskillen bombing, in which many people lost their lives and many others were injured, and the murder of two members of the Ulster Defence Regiment who served gallantly in Northern Ireland.

[Dr McCrea]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and I agree wholeheartedly with everything she said. The shadow over this debate is that of not only the Hyde park bombing but every other atrocity that was carried out during the campaign throughout the United Kingdom. There was no justification for the campaign of terror and no justification for the slaughter of the innocent. This House ought to once again unreservedly condemn the actions of the IRA and those who brought sorrow and grief to the United Kingdom for so many years. One thing about the Downey case is that, thankfully, it has exposed all those others who received what they believed to be letters of comfort, and I would suggest that he is probably not their favourite cousin.

I realise that I have to draw my remarks to a close. If someone is on the run, I want them to fear the police, the courts and the rule of law. I want them to fear the fact that one day justice may catch up with them. I can assure them today that if it does not catch up with them here on this earth, they will stand before God, whether they believe in Him or not, and face His judgment and wrath.

In the aftermath of the Downey case judgment, the Secretary of State said:

“We will take whatever steps are necessary to make clear to all recipients of letters arising from the administrative scheme, in a manner that will satisfy the courts and the public, that any letters issued cannot be relied upon to avoid questioning or prosecution for offences where information or evidence becomes available now or later.”—[Official Report, 28 February 2014; Vol. 576, c. 39WS.]

The Democratic Unionist party will insist that the Government follow up those words with concrete action.

Finally, the royal prerogative of mercy has been mentioned. I have lived for the past nearly 50 years in a community that went through the nightmare of terrorism. South Londonderry used to be the killing fields of IRA murders in our Province. I gathered with many widows and many children down those years, as I did with my own family, grieving and sorrowing over the passing of our loved ones. When I hear that the likes of Liam Averill—a murderer in my community—is supposed to have received the royal prerogative of mercy, that is absolutely disgusting. It is laughable in a certain way that the big provo hero crawls to Her Majesty to get a royal prerogative of mercy, but it is also disgusting and sickening. I would like to know who advanced his name and who advised Her Majesty to execute the royal prerogative of mercy for the likes of the murdering thug Liam Averill. I would also like to know the names of the others who received the royal prerogative of mercy, because I can assure the House that there was no mercy from the provos for my family and the other families in Northern Ireland who suffered grief and who to this day continue to suffer heartbreak at the loss of their loved ones.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

It is very kind of you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to call me in this very important Back-Bench debate. I am happy to put on the record my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee for allocating such an extensive period for it. I am very grateful to right hon. and hon. Members who have taken interventions throughout the debate. I will try to contain my comments to less than 10 minutes, so that those who have been so generous to me have an opportunity to speak at length.

[Ian Paisley]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Lady Hermon]

Of course. I will put into practice what I have just said.

[Ian Paisley]

Given that the hon. Lady is an esteemed and very skilled legal expert, will she refer to the possible opportunities that now pertain to try to get someone such as Mr Downey with his experience—an alleged mass murderer—back into our courts, whether by warrant, extradition or whatever?

[Lady Hermon]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for intervening so early. That is a really interesting question. My honest and frank answer, as he would expect from the hon. Member for North Down, is that Mr Downey of course resides in Donegal. That is his place of residence and his domicile. Frankly, after the Downey case and its revelations, I have absolutely no confidence that this British Government would request the extradition of Mr Downey. I would love the Secretary of State to intervene now to say that I am completely wrong.

[Mrs Villiers]

rose—

[Lady Hermon]

Oh, the Secretary of State is intervening.

[Mrs Villiers]

I emphasise that such decisions are for the prosecuting authorities, not for politicians.

[Lady Hermon]

I am very grateful to the Secretary of State for making that very interesting point, which brings me to a matter that I hope she can resolve later this afternoon. Like many hon. Members, I am really curious about the legal status of all the comfort letters or administrative letters issued to more than 200 cronies, pals or comrades of Gerry Adams. That is what they had to be: they were exclusively republican activists—terrorists—but they were buddies of Mr Adams.

I wrote a letter to the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), and I have asked him to clarify some of his replies in early 2007. As I have said, I am very sorry that he is not in the Chamber, but he has explained why he cannot be here. I do not want to criticise him, because when we have disagreed, we have always managed to have a very good working relationship. I will not therefore, in his absence, pick up the questions raised by other hon. Members about his replies in early 2007. Perhaps the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), who will wind up for the Opposition, will at some stage try to reconcile the irreconcilable. Before he speaks, perhaps he would take the opportunity to check the replies of the right hon. Member for Neath, which have been quoted by several Members, and try to reconcile them for us, which would be very helpful.

To return to the Secretary of State’s intervention, I tabled a written question to the Attorney-General asking him to rule on the legal status post the Downey case. I had a very courteous reply, as one would expect from the Attorney-General—of course drafted by very efficient civil servants—and it was a perfect parliamentary answer in that it was extremely brief. His reply, dated Monday 24 March, states:

“I have made no assessment. The status of the letters is a matter that may be considered by the right hon. Dame Heather Hallett in her review.”—[Official Report, 24 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 43W.]

There was discretion for Lady Justice Hallett to look at the status of the letters that had been issued. However, the following day, I learned from an online report by the BBC’s Northern Ireland correspondent, Vincent Kearney, that Lady Justice Hallett

“is not expected to reach a conclusion on the specific legal effect of individual letters, or any action taken or not taken as a result of the letter being sent”.

That quotation is from the letters that were exchanged between the director general of the Northern Ireland Office, Julian King, and the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales.

In the Secretary of State’s intervention, she was clear that there would be an independent decision on whether to issue a request for the extradition of Mr Downey from Donegal. Will she intervene on me and explain who exactly has the remit to tell the people in Northern Ireland, the people in this House and, indeed, the recipients of the more than 100 administrative letters what exactly is the legal status of those letters post-Downey? Have they been rescinded or have they not been rescinded? Do the recipients sleep easy in bed or do they not?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am happy to reiterate what I have said on a number of occasions over recent weeks. The letters were merely a statement of fact about whether an individual was wanted by the police at that time on the basis of the evidence that was available. They do not confer an amnesty. Nobody who has one should think that it immunises them from prosecution. If the evidence is present now or in the future to justify a prosecution, it will be taken forward.

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[Lady Hermon]

I am very grateful indeed to the Secretary of State for what I think was a clarification. She said that it is not an amnesty. What exactly is the legal status? Will she also confirm, when she is winding-up—unless she wants to intervene again, of course—that the files remain open? We need an assurance that the files are open and that further evidence is being sought by police services throughout the United Kingdom, including the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

I would hate to think that the recipients of these comfort letters had had the assurance when they received their letter that their file was closed and nobody was looking for further evidence. I say that with a really heavy heart, because in reading the Downey judgment, it is clear that the Historical Enquiries Team, to which other hon. Members have referred, made inquiries about Mr Downey in relation to offences that had allegedly been committed in Northern Ireland and apparently received a negative response. That is really worrying and troublesome.

Apart from assuring the House that this is not an amnesty, we really need a commitment from the Secretary of State that she will leave this House—at the end of the debate, not now—and ask the Attorney-General about the legal status. Given that Lady Justice Hallett is not going to look at the legal status of individual letters or, indeed, of all the letters, as we know courtesy of the exchange of letters with the director general of the Northern Ireland Office, it is obviously the responsibility of the British Attorney-General to give a clear legal ruling on their status. That is absolutely imperative.

I am sorry that I keep staring at the Secretary of State and encouraging her to intervene as and when she can, but I am doing so quite deliberately. She will know that, after the Downey case, the shock that permeated through this House, across Northern Ireland and across other constituencies in the UK where there have been terrorist bombs was enormous. The vast majority of us had believed before the Downey case that there was the rule of law. This country is held in high esteem around the world because we uphold the rule of law. We now know, post-Downey, that the rule of law did not apply to the comrades of Mr Adams. He asked the then Prime Minister Tony Blair for an invisible process, and that is exactly what he received.

I tabled several questions to the Secretary of State, and I am sorry to say that she gave the same holding reply—the same stock answer. Such stonewalling was most regrettable. Interestingly though, the Secretary of State assured me on several occasions that

“the Prime Minister announced that a judge would be appointed to undertake an independent review to provide a full public account of the operation and extent of the administrative scheme for dealing with so called “on-the-runs”, which will include a factual check of all letters issued.”—[Official Report, 12 March 2014; Vol. 577, c. 207W.]

I emphasise the phrase “all letters issued”. That sentence was repeated in several written answers I received, and I understand that it is repeated on the Downing street website, because it was of course the Prime Minister’s idea to have this independent inquiry. We discovered on Tuesday, courtesy of the Belfast Telegraph, that the exchange of correspondence between the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales and the director general of the Northern Ireland Office, Julian King, reveals that Lady Justice Hallett will not look at all the letters, but at a sample. It must be obvious to the Secretary of State that the written answers I received, with the undertaking that “all letters” would be considered, and the clarification by Julian King about a sample, are inconsistent. That inconsistency must be resolved this afternoon.

I tabled a painful question in which I asked the Secretary of State about the two most senior RUC officers who were murdered during the troubles, Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and Superintendent Bob Buchanan. Their families and John McBurney, the solicitor for one of the families, believe that some of the recipients of these comfort letters are alleged to have been involved in those murders. I ask the Secretary of State to give a firm assurance this afternoon that if the Breen family or the Buchanan family—or any other family of the victims of bombings and other hideous crimes—seek clarification about whether the murderers of their loved ones received one of these tawdry, dreadful, secret, scheming little letters, she will ensure that they get a clear reply, yes or no. That would be enormously helpful.

[Mr Shaun Woodward (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)]

I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by all hon. Members about those who lost their lives in the Hyde park and Regent park bombings. They were terrible crimes on the day they were committed, and some decades later they remain terrible crimes. It is always difficult to follow Members from Northern Ireland because they speak from such extraordinary personal experience and from personal loss. Sometimes it is really hard for other hon. Members, whatever their convictions, to speak after those who speak from the heart because they experienced the tragedy at home.

Listening to hon. Members on both sides of the House, I am of the view that the need for Justice Hallett’s review is critical, and the Secretary of State is right to expedite it. There are disadvantages in it not being a full, independent judicial review, but we know from Lord Saville that the time it would take to assemble such a review would be extremely damaging, not only to the ongoing political process in Northern Ireland but to the peace process. Indeed, the arguments around that so-called euphemism, “on-the-runs”, are testimony to why I think this review needs to come up with its findings quickly.

I was Secretary of State by a few weeks when the letter was issued to Mr Downey. As such, I take responsibility for my officials in the Northern Ireland Office, and I am happy to do so. They always acted with the most extraordinary integrity, and, as the Attorney-General set out when he spoke to the House a few weeks ago, there is no reason in any shape or form to doubt in any way the wisdom and actions of those officials or civil servants.

It is helpful to put on the record—again, I will co-operate with Justice Hallett however that is desired—that this was an administrative process. I absolutely understand the remarks of right hon. and hon. Members, and their questions about whether it was more than that, but I entirely endorse the view, expressed by the Secretary of State and by my predecessors, that the letters were designed to be statements of fact. They were part of an administrative scheme that, as the Attorney-General said, operated independently of the Government. It was intended to identify those individuals who, although they might believe they were unable to return to the jurisdiction without fear or arrest, would in fact face no prosecution or arrest if they were to return.

It is for Justice Hallett to ascertain whether that was the case, as I believe, but I put it on record that at no point during my tenure—which, I think, was the longest of any Secretary of State in Northern Ireland under the previous Administration—did I have reason to believe that it was ever more than an administrative process. That said, the judgment in the Downey case throws up some important questions that, as Secretary of State for those years, worry me greatly, and I am grateful to Justice Hallett for coming forward on this matter. In particular, paragraph 133 of the judgment makes it clear that:

“The PSNI did not alert the DPP (NI), or anyone else, to the fact that the defendant had been wanted by the Metropolitan Police in relation to the Hyde Park Bombing at the time of the critical correspondence in June/July 2007, or—”

and this should worry all of us—

“to the fact that the defendant was still wanted by the Metropolitan Police in…2008.”

Paragraph 137 states:

“Again, nothing was done to alert the DPP (NI), or anyone else, in relation to the defendant being wanted by the Metropolitan Police in connection with the Hyde Park Bombing.”

Those are very serious issues, and it is right that a judge consider them urgently. What they throw up is not that this was not an administrative process, but that there were clearly serious errors within that process. That throws up the question of when those errors were discovered, what happened to that information, and what course of action followed.

[Lady Hermon]

May I encourage the right hon. Gentleman to make it absolutely clear that during his long, and I think successful and happy time in Northern Ireland, the words “Operation Rapid” were not words that he heard, and he did not know about them until he read the Downey judgment? Is that what he is saying to the House?

[Mr Woodward]

Dare I say that there is a fashion when former Secretaries of State, as it were, and sometimes even serving Ministers, can sometimes hide behind forms of words? I am not suggesting that to the hon. Lady for a moment. I am not aware that we discussed the words “Operation Rapid”, but it is more than possible that pieces of paper will be found on which that phrase will appear. I say simply to the hon. Lady that it would be disingenuous for me remotely to suggest that I did not know we had an administrative process in order to establish facts. What was absolutely clear to me, by whatever name it was known, is that this was a factual operation, and in no way was the Northern Ireland Office, in any shape or form, at any point in the time I was there, or known to me before or after, interfering in that process. It was a matter of delivering those points of information.

Let me be clear to the hon. Members for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and for Upper Bann (David Simpson) that, if the letters, in any shape or form, were reprieves or amnesties, I would share the feelings they have set out this afternoon, but at no point was I led to believe, at no point did I believe, and at no point did anybody ever tell me, that the letters could or would be used as reprieves or amnesties. They were statements of fact. I entirely understand hon. Members’ feelings if they believe the letters were anything other than that. They were not designed to be a reprieve or an amnesty. They were designed only as statements of fact to tell those people whether they were or were not wanted.

[Lady Hermon]

I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his generosity. Norman Baxter, who is not a Member of the House, was the PSNI officer in charge of the scheme and is named in the Downey judgment. He gave evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on 11 November 2009. He said:

“One of my responsibilities before I retired was to conduct a review of on-the-runs, that is persons who are outside the jurisdiction. I can assure the Committee that there was an extremely unhealthy interest by officials in the Northern Ireland Office about prioritising individuals who were on the run and about ensuring that they were cleared to return to the North.”

That is not a term I would use, but it is what he said. In fairness to Norman Baxter, who was named and criticised in the Downey judgment, he has put it on the record that pressure was put on him by officials.

[Mr Woodward]

It is always dangerous to extrapolate from one person’s words and somebody else’s conclusion. One talks about “an interest”, but the hon. Lady’s refers to it as a “pressure”. All I can say to her is that, if there were questions from the Northern Ireland Office, as far as I am concerned, they could only ever be questions about facts. They could not in any way be about trying to interfere or change the outcome of any inquiry. The Secretary of State should know that, given the now legal status of the letters, the hon. Lady is entirely right to pose that question. It would be grossly misfortunate if the Justice were not to address that question. I remind the House that the situation is about an abuse of process, not just a letter. The entire process, of which the letter is a part, has been thrown up by the judgment.

That throws up the question of whether or not a status is conferred on the letters now—the letters were issued, as we thought, as statements of fact—that takes them beyond statements of fact. That is an issue of confidence. As the Secretary of State considers the debate—I expect her not to reply this afternoon, but to take away many of the considered comments made by right hon. and hon. Members—she should consider that the Downey judgment genuinely throws up the question whether or not letters issued in good faith by Ministers and the Northern Ireland Office as statements of fact are now more than statements of fact. If that is the case, the House deserves to know. It will be very difficult to rebuild confidence, which has been damaged across the process, without answering that question.

I am conscious of the time and do not wish to prevent other hon. Members from speaking. At the end of Justice Hallett’s review, we will have answers to some questions but not all. What will remain are questions of how we deal with some remaining dimensions of the past. The hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) rightly puts back on the table the issue of the soldiers who were named and effectively indicted through the Saville inquiry. For them, in their old age, terrible worries ensue. Nobody should be above justice and I would never argue that whoever may be involved should be above justice. However, the case throws the issue on to the table once again and the Secretary of State may wish to reconsider it. That does not mean dragging out the discredited 2005 Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill, but perhaps we are approaching a point at which it would be sensible to consider a process that allows us to deal quickly and effectively, but only if it is fair, with those individual cases that arise out of dealing with the past of the troubles in Northern Ireland. It is an intolerable situation for those paratroopers to face, as the hon. Member for Aldershot set out so eloquently. It is equally intolerable for those who were victims of the troubles. I am not remotely suggesting that we revive the discredited 2005 Bill, but we know that Northern Ireland needs to move out of the past—not in the sense of forgetting its past, but it needs to move out of the grip of the past where that part of the past is a millstone around its neck.

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[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

This is a sombre and sobering occasion. There are few occasions in this House when words are insufficient to describe the depth and strength of emotion that runs through a debate—today’s was more a threnody than a debate—and this was one such occasion. May I, like all Members who have spoken, place on the record my deepest sympathies, and those of my party, for the victims of the Hyde park and Regent’s park bombings in 1982? Their names have been read out twice today. Their names will live for ever more. We will remember them.

May I also, as has been the convention this afternoon, praise the Backbench Business Committee and the Northern Ireland Members who made it their business to lobby for this debate on the Floor of the House? If anyone doubts for a moment how raw the emotions still are or how relevant these issues remain, they will be disabused of such notions when they hear what we have heard this afternoon. I apologise for the fact that my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State was unable to stay for the whole debate; there is a funeral today that he and other Members wished to attend.

In many ways we heard two debates this afternoon. On the one hand, we heard a legalistic argument about the legal consequence of this administrative process. I should put on the record the fact that, as the shadow Secretary of State stated in his letter to the Belfast Telegraph earlier this month, our party does not recant the introduction of the on-the-run administration. We say that despite the fact that “understandable anger”, and indeed fury, has been expressed at the subsequent error in the Downey case. I think that it is important to place on the record my hon. Friend’s words when he offered an unequivocal apology for the catastrophic error made in the issuing of the letter to John Downey:

“This has once again accentuated the pain for the families which never goes away and reduces the likelihood of them ever getting truth or justice.”

I cannot add to those points.

[Lady Hermon]

Are we to understand that the Labour party is blaming the PSNI for that catastrophic error and, in fact, commending the political decision made by Mr Blair and carried through by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), and subsequently by the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), that it is a good and defensible position that the on-the-runs, the pals of Mr Gerry Adams who are accused of the most appalling crimes committed in Northern Ireland and across the United Kingdom, have walked free? Is that the Opposition’s position?

[Stephen Pound]

The hon. Lady appears to be conflating two separate issues. To say that the Labour party, which was in government at the time, does not recant its position with regard to the administrative system in no way implies that people are walking free. People are not walking free. There has been no amnesty. It is crucial that we analyse and use the word “amnesty” with care. The hon. Lady, who is one of the most distinguished educators in Northern Ireland, is exact and precise about the etymology of the words she uses, but the word “amnesty” comes from the Greek word “amnestis”, which simply means forgetfulness—it has the same root as “amnesia”. In the context in which we are using it this afternoon—to mean a potential overlooking—it was so used only in the 16th century.

One of the things that we need to discover—I am sure that the Secretary of State will respond to this when she replies—is whether in the abuse of process there was a creative precedent or any sort of legality that arose from that. It is important, in view of the context and the great significance of this subject, that we are very precise in our language. The Secretary of State has said that there is no amnesty. We need to be precise about that and must certainly return to it.

In response to the hon. Lady’s suggestion, no, I am not seeking to blame the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and nor would I. I hope that she and they will accept my assertion of that fact.

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[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I start by thanking the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for moving the motion with such a powerful and eloquent speech in opening a debate of outstanding quality. I pay tribute to all the right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part. Their contributions were authoritative, fluent and heartfelt.

I welcome a theme that has run through many of the speeches today—that despite the solemnity of this occasion and grave concern about the OTR scheme, we should still recognise the tremendous progress that has been made in Northern Ireland in the past 20 years, much of which is attributable to the Members who have taken part in this debate. That theme of optimism despite the setback of the OTR scheme was reflected in the words of the right hon. Gentleman, and those of the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and many others.

Before I respond to the points made in the debate, I want to join in the tributes to the victims of the Hyde park atrocity. We have heard their names, and I want to read them out again—Lieutenant Anthony Daly, Trooper Simon Tipper, Lance Corporal Jeffrey Young and Squadron Quartermaster Corporal Roy Bright. They all lost their lives in one of the most brutal atrocities of the long years of the troubles.

Today, I want to acknowledge once again the deep sense of anger felt by so many people, not least in this House, about the judgment in the trial of John Downey and about the OTR scheme. I am sure that that anger and distress are felt most directly by the families of those who lost their lives in the Hyde park atrocity in 1982, and I want to reiterate my condolences to them. One can only imagine the depth of the pain caused by seeing the man accused of the crime walk free from court. But I know that this sense of anger has been felt more widely by other victims of terrorism who have never seen those who murdered their loved ones brought to justice, and many of whom I have met directly. I therefore want to reiterate today what I said in Belfast two weeks ago, which is that the Government are profoundly sorry for what happened in the Downey case, for reviving painful memories and for putting so many victims through the agonies of loss once again.

Turning to the questions asked by hon. Members, the scheme of which John Downey’s letter formed a part was established by the previous Government in 2000, as we have heard. It was accelerated following the rejection of the Northern Ireland (Offences) Bill in early 2006. That was the vehicle by which the previous Government had sought to give effect to commitments they had made at Weston Park in 2001.

The scheme mainly operated in this way. Sinn Fein submitted a list of individuals who believed that if they returned to the UK, they might be arrested by the police in connection with terrorist offences committed before the 1998 Belfast agreement. The names were then checked by the police, and in some cases by the Public Prosecution Service. If that checking process concluded that the lack of evidence available at the time meant that there was no realistic prospect of a successful prosecution, the individuals concerned were in most cases informed that they were no longer wanted by police in a letter signed by a Northern Ireland Office official.

Since the Downey case, the NIO has been engaged in an intensive exercise to reconcile the different information held by the NIO, the Police Service of Northern Ireland and Sinn Fein to establish the actual numbers dealt with under the scheme. That work has revealed the following provisional information: NIO records indicate that 207 names were provided by Sinn Fein or by solicitors acting on their behalf, while a further 10 names were identified by the Prison Service of Northern Ireland and four by the Irish Government, bringing the total to 221 names.

[Lady Hermon]

I intervene to make two points. First, will the Secretary of State explain how on earth the Prison Service of Northern Ireland was in possession of information indicating that certain people were on the run and was therefore in a position to pass on that information to the scheme? Secondly, I am sure that she would like to take this opportunity to extend her condolences in relation to those who lost their lives in Enniskillen and in relation to the two UDR men who were allegedly killed by Mr Downey, who left the Old Bailey free at the end of February.

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[Mrs Villiers]

The prosecuting authorities make their decisions independently of Government.

I want to reiterate to the House unequivocally that the letters do not confer an amnesty. Nobody who holds one of these letters should be in any doubt: they will not protect you from arrest or prosecution if the police can gather sufficient evidence against you; they are not an exemption, immunity or amnesty, which is something that could only ever be granted by Parliament; they are not “get out of jail free” cards.

[Lady Hermon]

It is very generous of the Secretary of State to give way and I do appreciate it. Will she please explain to the House, if one of these letters is not an amnesty and it does not represent immunity from prosecution, why on earth the coalition Government continued with this ghastly, immoral scheme in 2010 when they took over No. 10? Why did they not just let the normal criminal process run its course if it did not provide immunity and it was not a pardon for those who were on the run?

[Mrs Villiers]

I can only reiterate to the hon. Lady that the letters did not confer an amnesty or immunity. If they had, the current Government would have stopped the scheme immediately on coming to office. All the letters amounted to was a statement of fact regarding an individual’s status at the time in connection with the police and the prosecuting authorities. If the facts change and the evidential test is met, the individual concerned will be subject to due process just like anybody else. When the Government took office and were made aware of the arrangements, we allowed the checking process to continue on that basis. By that stage, it was coming towards its end. In the case of John Downey, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, has made clear, it was not the fact of John Downey having a letter that led the judge to stay the prosecution. It was the fact that the letter contained factually incorrect and misleading information, on which Mr Downey relied, that led the judge to rule that an abuse of process had taken place. Mr Downey should never have been sent a letter saying that he was not wanted because at all relevant times he was wanted by the Metropolitan police in connection with the Hyde park bombing.

Several hon. Members have raised concerns about the fact that the CPS decided not to appeal in the Downey case. As the House heard from the Attorney-General, careful consideration was given to whether an appeal should take place, but the CPS concluded that such an appeal would have no realistic prospect of success, and that is why it decided not to go ahead with one.

Recognising the severe concerns expressed in the Chamber and further afield—including by the First Minister, the Justice Minister and many victims’ groups—about the OTR scheme, the Prime Minister responded swiftly by establishing a judge-led inquiry into the scheme. As we have heard today, that inquiry will be chaired by an eminent judge from the Court of Appeal, Lady Justice Hallett. The terms of reference require the provision of a full public account of the operation and extent of the scheme, to establish whether other mistakes were made and to make recommendations. I assure the House that it will be a meaningful, exacting and rigorous process to get to the truth of what happened and to provide the answers for which the public are calling.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

My understanding of the legal position is that it is most unlikely that the courts would allow the case of the Hyde park bombing to be reopened, but the position may be different for other offences for which Mr Downey might be pursued.

Returning to the Hallett report, until Dame Heather is able to report, there are limits to what I can say to avoid pre-empting her conclusions, but I wish to make clear this Government’s position on amnesties: we do not support, and have never supported, amnesties from prosecution. That is why both coalition parties opposed the legislation introduced by Labour in 2005, which was withdrawn in the face of widespread opposition, as emphasised today by the hon. Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell).

Had the Government been presented when we came to office with any scheme that amounted to immunity, exemption or amnesty from prosecution, we would have stopped it immediately. This Government believe in the rule of law and due process, and that applies across the board to everyone. Those who are still wanted for crimes must expect the law to take its course, and those who received letters under the OTR scheme cannot rely on them to avoid questioning or prosecution for offences where information or evidence becomes available now or in the future. In conclusion—

[Lady Hermon]

I am sorry to interrupt the Secretary of State just as she is coming to the end of her comments, but she seems to have overlooked—by accident, I am sure—one vital point that concerns the legal status of the letters. The former, very distinguished, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland emphasised the importance of a clear ruling on the legal status of those letters, and in my contribution I specifically asked the Secretary of State whether, at the end of the debate, she would give an assurance that she will speak to the Attorney-General, and that someone, either Lady Justice Hallett or the Attorney-General, would tell us once and for all—including the people of Northern Ireland, the victims and their families, and those who hold these letters—what is their legal status.

[Mrs Villiers]

I felt I answered the hon. Lady’s question by stating that the letters were simply statements of facts at the time, which means they do not have any formal legal status. They were not an amnesty; they were merely statements of fact. I appreciate that another key theme running through today’s debate, and a source of the grave anger and concern expressed by the right hon. Member for Belfast North, and the hon. Members for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and for North Down, is that the facts of the scheme were not shared with the Northern Ireland Executive or fully shared with Parliament.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I also rise to support the Lords amendments. It is worth noting that my party agrees with the Democratic Unionist party on this occasion, because that has been a rather rare occurrence in recent years. We wish to see significant reform of the Assembly structures and the burden they place on the population of Northern Ireland.

The principles of the Good Friday agreement—power-sharing, inclusion and proportionality—are very important. Whatever changes are made to the Assembly, they need still to reflect those principles. There are many ways in which those principles can be implemented in practice to allow Northern Ireland to have a leaner, more efficient Government. I believe that that would benefit all the people of Northern Ireland and that it is something the Assembly should wish to take forward. We should be open to reform that would make our Government more agile and that would allow our governance to move away from the structures that often impede its ability to deliver for the electorate. Obviously, we would like the Assembly reforms to go much further, but that is a matter for the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. However, I concur entirely with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) that the time for talking about this has come to an end. We now need to see real progress and take the opportunity these amendments present to reduce the number of Members per constituency and then, as part of that process, reduce the number of Government Departments so that there is a correct balance between those in the Executive and those in Back-Bench positions holding them to account.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I apologise for not being in the Chamber when the debate commenced on this very important Bill. Will the hon. Lady identify what the Alliance party believes to be the impediments that the Assembly’s current structures have resulted in?

[Naomi Long]

I appreciate the opportunity to do so, but I will not go too far, because Mr Deputy Speaker will be quick to reign me back in. In terms of what the AERC is looking at, we want a review of the question of an addition to the numbers of Members and Departments. We also want to move away from the Assembly’s designation system—which I believe copper-fastens sectarianism within our structures and manages division rather than addresses it—towards a weighted majority voting system. I believe that that would be much more fluid and that it would allow Government and, indeed, Assembly decisions to be taken much more quickly and easily than is currently the case with our mutual vetoes, which do not serve Northern Ireland well.

I would also like the Assembly to have opposition structures similar to those in this place, which has a properly financed and funded Opposition who can hold the Executive parties to account. It is a very difficult job. During my time in the Assembly I sat as part of the unofficial Opposition—we were not in the Executive—and although it was a very nice place to be and we could be critical of what was going on without having the responsibility of making the decisions, it was not properly funded or researched. Often it was done on a shoe string in comparison to the support received by the majority of Assembly Members, who were members of Government parties and had access to the relevant structures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naomi Long]

That is interesting, because it suggests that it might be the DUP’s plan for after the next elections. It, too, has called for a properly structured and funded Opposition at the Assembly, but I do not see it walking away from the post of First Minister and all its other Executive posts. This is not about which is the biggest party in Northern Ireland, because government is founded and constructed on proportionality. Why would we as a party walk away from our proportional entitlement to govern when others do not? This is not about the Alliance party being in opposition—that is not a point of principle. We did our part in being constructive in opposition. This is about having an Opposition who could be formed of Members from bigger and smaller parties co-operating and collaborating together, as can happen in this place. It is rather facetious to suggest that one party leaving the Executive and essentially giving its ministerial responsibilities to other parties with which it fundamentally disagrees would be a way of structuring opposition.

I believe that the AERC reforms will come and I will certainly press for them, as, in fairness, will my colleagues in the Assembly. However, we need to convince those in Northern Ireland—we need to take cognisance of this—who have felt politically excluded over a long period of time that such reform is not designed to further exclude or diminish their role in the governance of Northern Ireland. The stability we enjoy today requires buy-in from all sections of the community, and we cannot squander that simply in order to have efficiency.

[Lady Hermon]

Is there any evidence to suggest that the general public in Northern Ireland wish to have an Opposition at Stormont or whether, in fact, they are in favour of power sharing between parties that, collectively do their very best for everyone in Northern Ireland?

[Naomi Long]

I think there is evidence that the public would like to see an Opposition, and that evidence is their frustration with the amount that can be delivered under the Executive and the structures as they stand. The most common complaint about the Assembly is its lack of delivery, and I think that all Members would recognise that that is a challenge for all of us whose colleagues are representatives there. People feel frustrated that things take so long and that the process is far too cumbersome.

I think that an Opposition would help to speed up that process and that they would, therefore, be welcomed. I concede that people may not necessarily articulate the argument in favour of an Opposition so directly, but I believe that the implication is that most people would respond if we cut through some of the morass of slow and weighty governance and its burden on the Assembly and created more efficient governance.

I am happy to support the amendments. I believe that a reduction to five seats would maintain the principles of inclusion, proportionality and power-sharing. I also believe that they present the Assembly and the AERC with a renewed opportunity to get about the business of reducing the size of the Assembly, reducing the level of governance and, with the powers they have, starting to deliver real change for the people in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

In my area, North Down and Ards will come together. Those of us who live in the Ards area perhaps find an alliance with North Down very difficult to accommodate—[Interruption.]—but the two councils have to come together to cover areas between Bangor and Portaferry. It has to happen, so while people in Ards want to ensure that they retain their character as Ards people within North Down and Ards, the people of North Down will want to do the same.

[Lady Hermon]

It is awfully nice of the hon. Gentleman, my constituency neighbour, to give way. I wonder whether he would love to take this opportunity to put on the record his admiration for the people of North Down, just to make sure that nothing in his remarks a moment ago might be misconstrued. North Down is, in fact—[Interruption.]—yes, the jewel in the crown of constituencies in Northern Ireland.

[Jim Shannon]

I am very pleased to say how enamoured I am of the people of North Down. The people of Ards will lead the way in that relationship. We also share a football ground between us: Ards plays at Bangor—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Robathan]

Since the right hon. Gentleman was once Secretary of State for Wales, he might be better able to answer that than I am. I will write to him and let him know because I do not know the situation in Scotland and Wales.

Clause 11 proposes moving responsibility for appointments to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and its functions, from the excepted to the reserved category, making it possible for those responsibilities to be devolved in future. As with civil service commissioners, that raises questions about the commission’s independence, including its accountability should it be devolved in future.

Lords amendments to clause 11 set out a similar procedure to those to clause 10, and also require the Secretary of State to lay a report before Parliament at least three months prior to introducing any order on the devolution of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. In that report, the Secretary of State is required to set out her view about the effects that such an order would have on the commission’s independence, the application of internationally accepted principles relating to human rights institutions, and the relationship between the commission and the Assembly. We recognise that these issues are of real concern to those concerned with the effective operation of the commission.

[Lady Hermon]

I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has done an enormous amount of good in Northern Ireland, although that is not generally or widely recognised. Will he explain whether the commission is pleased and content with the changes that will be implemented by the proposed legislation?

[Mr Robathan]

The point about the Lords amendments is that there will be no change to the current status of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. We initially intended it to be devolved to the Assembly and the Executive, but any change will take place after further consultation. I am afraid the answer to the hon. Lady’s question will come during further consultation rather than now.

Devolution of the responsibilities of civil service commissioners and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission will, of course, be subject to consultation, and the Lords amendments intend to ensure that devolution is approached with proper consideration and scrutiny. I hope that the House will agree that that is the right approach.

Lords amendments 7 and 8 are technical amendments concerning the commencement of clause 24. Members will be aware that clause 24 amends an order-making power already passed in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, to allow us to take forward, by order, the changes to the new biometric framework in the reserved and excepted fields. The Northern Ireland Department of Justice could not legislate for that because the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2013 received Royal Assent too late, on 25 April 2013. The amendments will allow us to bring the position of Northern Ireland regarding the retention, use and destruction of biometric data in the interests of national security, or for the purposes of terrorist investigation, into line with that of Great Britain.

As the Bill is currently drafted, clause 24 would come into force on the day the legislation is passed. However, the order-making power in paragraph 8 of schedule 1 to the Protection of Freedoms Act is not yet in force. The amendment to commencement is intended to avoid a situation where the amendment to the order-making power in clause 24 comes into force before the power itself. That would have no practical effect and is technically undesirable. The change is entirely technical and has not been prompted by any debate or concerns in the other place. I hope that the House will agree to it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

With respect, I am addressing the amendment, which seeks to introduce a new requirement. It means that, at least three months prior to seeking parliamentary approval for an order, the Secretary of State must report to Parliament on the three issues I have described. The simple point I am making is this: if there is any concern or debate, or the slightest suggestion that there would be a detrimental effect on the independence of the commissioners, or on the impartiality of the Northern Ireland civil service, or that appointments would not be made on merit, the Government would not bring forward an Order in Council. A response would be given to a request from the Northern Ireland Assembly saying, “I am sorry, but this is the reason.”

I am not opposing the measure, but asking about its real effect. Presumably, the report will not be subject to any vote, because the only legislative instrument is the Order in Council. The measure does not seem to have much effect in reality other than to provide for another debate, which I am not opposed to. I am very happy to give the issues the greatest possible scrutiny and debate.

[Lady Hermon]

I agree wholeheartedly with the valid points the right hon. Gentleman makes. Even if we do not press the amendment to a Division, I urge him to include me—he is well capable of doing this on behalf of Democratic Unionist party Members—as someone who also seeks a clarification on this from the Minister. If the impartiality of the Northern Ireland civil service is called into question, the Secretary of State should not proceed with any such report.

[Mr Dodds]

I join the hon. Lady in that, and the Minister has heard it. It is entirely sensible. None of us in the House or, I dare say, in the Assembly would want to undermine in any way the independence of the civil service commissioners or allow anything to interfere with the principle of appointments based on merit after fair and open competition. We would not want anything to disadvantage the Northern Ireland civil service by casting a taint on its impartiality. My experience in government—I have been in the Northern Ireland Executive—has left me with the highest regard for the Northern Ireland civil service, which has done an immensely good job by and large, in many difficult situations in the governance of the Province.

I raise those points not to oppose the provisions, but to query them. Sometimes, we ask why legislation is necessary. The provision strikes me as being somewhat superfluous in terms of parliamentary process. We are legislating to say, “Let’s have a debate at some point in future.” I do not see why we need to do so, unless somebody does not trust someone who might be in power in future—they might believe that that someone might not act in the best interests of the civil service of Northern Ireland.

The same comments apply to Lords amendments 6 and 7, which propose making a prior report in respect of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, like the one that is produced on the civil service commissioners for Northern Ireland. I will not rehearse the separate arguments in that regard.

[Lady Hermon]

Amendment 6 obliges the Secretary of State to look at

“the application of internationally accepted principles relating to national human rights institutions”

as they may apply to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. I draw the House’s attention to the word “national”. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is a regional human rights institution, not a national one. How can the Secretary of State comply with that statutory obligation?

[Mr Dodds]

I do not know whether the hon. Lady will seek to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, but she makes a good point. I look forward to the Minister responding to it. As she says, the amendment mentions “internationally accepted principles” and their application vis-à-vis national human rights bodies. Her point is valid. The amendment says that not only the independence of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is a matter for the report, but the relationship between the commission and the Assembly.

Given that the clause is a small provision—it simply provides an enabling power, which the Order in Council will implement—on what basis will the report be compiled? Will there be an investigation? Will there be an Assembly inquiry, with evidence being taken on how the measures operate? If it were devolved, it would be a matter for the Assembly, so what would be the purpose of reassuring ourselves in this House and in the other place about all these matters three months prior to a debate?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Robathan]

I will take that suggestion away and consider it, but I have not heard that from anybody else in the four or five months I have been doing this job.

This has been a rather longer summing up than I expected and, on that note, I shall conclude.

[Lady Hermon]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Is the Minister giving way or has he concluded?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Is the hon. Lady indicating that she would like to speak?

[Lady Hermon]

indicated assent.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I therefore call Lady Hermon.

[Lady Hermon]

I would indeed like to speak on this group of amendments, so thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to do so.

I am very surprised, and exceedingly disappointed, that the Minister seems not to have read the Belfast agreement. If he had done so, he would understand that it contains an entire page and chapter dedicated to human rights. In fact, the agreement creates the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and gives it, among other things, the statutory obligation to bring forward and advise the British Government on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland which contains rights particular to Northern Ireland. That obligation is in the Good Friday agreement or Belfast agreement—whatever one chooses to call it, it is still the same thing. So I was disappointed that he put it on the record this afternoon that he does not understand that the agreement contains a specific obligation about a Bill of Rights in Northern Ireland. Whether or not we all wish to have one is a completely different matter, but the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) has made a very valid point.

I listened carefully to the Minister’s response to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). When pushed strongly by various interventions, the Minister gave a categorical assurance that there would be consultation before a report was brought to this Chamber or indeed the other House. I ask him to give the same categorical assurance, and reassurance, that any report brought forward by the Secretary of State would be discussed not only in another House, but in this Chamber.

When I came to the Chamber to debate this Bill for the final time, the atmosphere was cordial. I apologised for being a little late, but the atmosphere was cordial at that stage. It grieves me to have to say that the Minister has unnecessarily churned up a lot of disagreement and annoyance, because there is now confusion about what these amendments mean. It would have been helpful to the House if better clarification had been given in his wind-up and if he had not wound up so very quickly that other hon. Members to whose points he was responding did not have an opportunity to have their views aired properly in this House. I am disappointed to be saying that on the record.

I welcome the Minister’s appointment to the Northern Ireland Office. He had not been particularly well, having had an operation on his leg, and we are delighted to see him back in this House. However, may I just urge him to spend a little time, before he next speaks in a Northern Ireland debate, reading the Belfast agreement, which is supported by thousands and thousands of people? I will give him this opportunity to correct the record by allowing him to intervene on me to show this House that he has read it in depth and that somehow the provisions on the Bill of Rights escaped his attention.

[Mr Robathan]

With the leave of the House—

[Mr Robathan]

I understood from the Belfast agreement, which I have to confess I read some 16 years ago when it came out, that the setting up of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission dealt with the particular issue of human rights. If I am wrong, I apologise.

[Lady Hermon]

I would urge a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office please to refresh his memory about the Belfast agreement. It is really embarrassing for a Minister who took up his job last autumn to make an admission to the House that he has not read it since it was signed in 1998.

Moving swiftly on; it is important when considering this amendment for the Minister to have clarified the point about the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission being measured by the Secretary of State who has to report to this House and to the other House on

“the application of internationally accepted principles relating to national human rights institutions”.

With the greatest respect, the word “national” is included there. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, of which I am a supporter—I am not always a fan of everything it does, but I am a supporter—is a regional human rights commission. Therefore, how on earth could the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland bring forward a report measuring the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission by “national” international standards rather than regional ones? I made that point in an intervention, albeit on the right hon. Member for Belfast North, but I did hope that the Minister would respond to it. As we will not seek to divide the House, clarification on that point is essential. I do not want to burden the Secretary of State even more than she is already burdened in Northern Ireland, but she has been asked to do an almost impossible task. If the Minister would like to intervene on me again, with the assistance of the hard-working civil servants who have brought forward these amendments—I praise the Northern Ireland civil service for its work, impartiality and high standards—I would be thrilled and delighted for him to do so.

[Mr Robathan]

I am sorry if the hon. Lady thinks that I have been in any way obtuse, because that was not my intention. The point about the report is that it will inevitably be discussed because the devolution order would have to be approved by the House. That is what the amendment does. It puts off the order of devolution.

With regard to the word “national”, I understand that the amendment refers to “internationally” and the Human Rights Act to which this country has signed up, and I understand that that is how it is effected. I understand that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is separate, but as I explained, the human rights are universal. We have signed up to the Human Rights Act and the European convention on human rights.

[Lady Hermon]

I am most grateful to the Minister for that intervention, which does not really clarify matters, but I give recognition to the Minister for having responded with such good temper after my criticism of him. This is a hugely important and significant piece of legislation for Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is hugely important, as are the Northern Ireland civil service commissioners and the civil service. I just say again—I apologise to the Minister for my tone—that I was profoundly disappointed with the Minister’s response to the sensible interventions made by the right hon. Member for Belfast North, and the hon. Members for South Down and for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and other colleagues who have spoken. It would be wise, after 16 years—I say “wise” in a better tone of voice—for the Minister, before coming back to speak on an important piece of Northern Ireland legislation, to read the Good Friday agreement, the Belfast agreement, in detail.

Lords amendment 4 agreed to.

Lords amendments 5 to 8 agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I agree that it is always important for the police to be fair and even-handed, and I believe that they have shown those qualities in dealing with all the public order incidents that have occurred in recent years. I know that they take their duties of fairness, even-handedness and respect for human rights very seriously. I urge those who might become involved in violent protests not to do so, because such action is disastrous for them and negative for the community, and, of course, I urge all elected representatives to support the police in every possible way, given the difficult duties that they must fulfil.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Obviously, the need to deal with public order issues and to try to contain the threat from dissident republicans requires an increasing number of police officers. It is therefore extremely worrying that a steady flow of experienced police officers is haemorrhaging away from the Police Service of Northern Ireland every single month. What assurances has the Secretary of State managed to extract from the Treasury that there will be funds to guarantee recruitment to the PSNI?

[Mrs Villiers]

A guaranteed total of £200 million in the current spending review and £30 million in the next will be provided to assist the PSNI in its national security work, which will of course enable it to be more effective across the board. As I said in response to earlier questions, the Executive and the PSNI are currently discussing the additional funding that will be needed in 2015-16 to enable the PSNI to commence the recruitment that the Chief Constable believes is necessary.

Haass Talks

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

As I said, I am not sure that Dr Haass is in a position to come back and perform the role of chairman, but I hope that he will continue to engage. Introducing another independent chairman is an option for the First and Deputy First Ministers. I am not sure that it is needed at the moment, but it is well worth their consideration. I hope that we have not reached a stalemate. That is not how I would characterise the situation. There is still an opportunity for the political parties to grasp. They can do that by getting back around the table to continue the discussions.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Thank you for calling me, Mr Speaker. It is so kind of you. With your permission, I would like to put on the record a personal tribute and a tribute on behalf of my constituents to Paul Goggins. The news of his sudden death was profoundly and deeply shocking not just to this House, his colleagues and most of all his family, but right across Northern Ireland. Paul Goggins had hefty and important responsibilities in the Northern Ireland Office. He was an exceptional Minister, particularly with regard to health and security. It will be widely regretted that he has died at the young age of 60—just 60. However, in those 60 years, he achieved an enormous amount. He has left a very positive legacy in Northern Ireland. As has been mentioned by other right hon. and hon. Members, he had a deep personal Christian faith. He lived that faith in the manner in which he treated everyone, irrespective of their political views or their faith.

I welcome the statement by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I welcome the fact that an early opportunity has been taken to report to this House on the Haass talks. I draw attention to the fact that the Secretary of State did not suggest in her statement that if the parties cannot agree among themselves, the British and Irish Governments will impose the Haass proposals on the parties and the people of Northern Ireland. That suggestion has been made in Northern Ireland. Will she take this opportunity to reject it clearly and frankly, because that would not be acceptable?

[Mrs Villiers]

The hon. Lady is right that it would be very difficult to impose a solution from above. I agree with the calls on both Governments to continue to engage, encourage and facilitate. Ultimately, the best way to resolve these issues is through cross-party agreement within Northern Ireland. It was important to give this House the chance to debate the situation at the earliest opportunity so that we could send a strong message of support to Northern Ireland’s political leadership in their endeavours to reach an agreement on these issues, which have caused so much tension over so many years.

I share the hon. Lady’s sentiments on the shocking nature of the news about Paul Goggins. Even now, a few hours after learning the truth, it is very hard to believe that it has happened. This place will be all the poorer for his absence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I am confident that there will be a very positive legacy. Interestingly, I am sure that the legacy will be felt on both sides of the border, because this is having a significant impact on areas in the south, too. We are determined that there will be a legacy from successful events such as the city of culture and the G8 meeting. That is one reason why the Prime Minister attended an investment conference a couple of months ago to promote Northern Ireland as a great place to do business, following on from the success of the G8 meeting.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Will the Secretary of State be so kind as to agree to come to my constituency to meet various loyalist communities to discuss their positive contribution to a shared future that we all want to enjoy?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am happy to do that, and I believe that our respective offices are in discussions about a date. It is very important to distinguish between the small minority of extremists within the loyalist community, who might have been responsible for the disgraceful scenes of rioting, and the vast majority, who are committed to peace and want to help to build a shared future for Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady makes the point well.