The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
It is an honour to follow the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), who made a very considered speech in which he set out some of the serious concerns that are felt about security in Northern Ireland. I welcome his emphasis on the positive achievements as well, however, and the steps that have been taken to transform the security situation for the better over recent years.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman and his Democratic Unionist party colleagues for providing the House with this opportunity to debate what is a very important subject not only for Northern Ireland, but for the entire United Kingdom. Sadly, it is inevitable that our debate this afternoon has been overshadowed by the despicable murder of Prison Officer David Black as he drove to work one morning after 30 years of dedicated service to his community. As the right hon. Gentleman said, that act of brutality serves to remind us all of the continuing threat posed by the individuals who reject the principles of democracy and consent, and instead seek to pursue their aims by violence and murder. In answer to the questions the right hon. Gentleman put to me in his speech, the UK Government’s efforts to combat that terrorist threat remain resolute.
I know that all Members in the House today will continue to keep the family, friends and colleagues of David Black in our thoughts as they seek to cope with their devastating loss. I join the right hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the dignified and courageous response of Mrs Black. I also want to update the House on the investigation. Of course, I can share few details with colleagues in this public forum, but the news this morning is that two further arrests have been made and searches have been carried out in the Coalisland area. I repeat the appeal I made previously in my statement to the House: anyone with information on this crime or any other terrorist activity in Northern Ireland should come forward and contact the police as a matter of urgency.
As well as being a personal tragedy, this cowardly murder represents an attack on the wider community. Yet contrary to the ambitions of the so-called dissidents, such attacks serve only to strengthen the determination of the vast majority in all parts of the community to move forward and to see violence and terrorism left behind as part of Northern Ireland’s past, and not its future. I also join the right hon. Gentleman in praising the response of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister who were resolute in their condemnation of Mr Black’s murder. Similar condemnations came from the rest of the UK, the Republic of Ireland and the United States, demonstrating the widespread revulsion at what happened that morning on the M1 motorway. They also demonstrate our unity of purpose in ensuring that these terrorists will never succeed in wrecking the progress that has been made, or in dragging Northern Ireland back to its troubled past.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State agree that in acknowledging the tremendous dignity of the Black family in calling on the community to ensure that there be no act of revenge for the murder of David, we must also acknowledge that the family has also demanded that those who perpetrated this act be brought to justice?
Mrs Villiers
I, too, believe that every effort must be made to bring to justice the people responsible for this despicable murder, and I am sure the PSNI is doing everything in its power to ensure that that happens.
Lady Hermon
As the Secretary of State will know, with the murder of David Black, 30 prison officers have now been murdered in Northern Ireland. The Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross Foundation has a beautiful memorial garden at police headquarters in Belfast. Please will the Secretary of State support the establishment of a memorial garden for murdered prison officers in Northern Ireland? Organisations including the Prison Officers Association have long campaigned valiantly on this issue, and its chairman, Finlay Spratt, has given sterling leadership. Plans were afoot seven years ago. Such a garden would be a wonderful tribute to David Black and the other prison officers who have been murdered through the years of terrorism. It would be a fit and proper gesture and acknowledgement of the sacrifice made by prison officers through 30 years of terrible events in Northern Ireland.
Mrs Villiers
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that thoughtful suggestion. The Minister of State and I will certainly reflect on it, and I am happy to discuss it with the Northern Ireland Executive.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North referred to the new grouping that has apparently formed in Northern Ireland from a number of different terrorist groups. My emphasis would be on the fact that however they brand themselves, these groupings are condemned across Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the UK. The numbers involved in dissident activity continue to be small. The dissidents have almost no support, they despise the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland over the past two decades and they act in defiance of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Ireland, north and south, who voted overwhelmingly to back the political settlement we have today. Yet it is all too clear that these disparate groupings can still cause damage and ruin lives.
Ian Paisley
I am not suggesting, in any way, that the Secretary of State’s words imply any level of complacency about the strength of support in the community for dissident terrorists, but in the last elections dissident republican terrorist candidates achieved 2,000 votes in the two west Belfast wards of the Falls—that is in the heartland of Sinn Fein. We must recognise that if this beast is not dealt with decisively now, it will grow. We saw that in the past with the provisionals, who were small in number but are now the largest republican party—nationalist, constitutional party—in Northern Ireland. It could happen again.
Mrs Villiers
I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Government remain vigilant on the terrorist threat; we are taking it extremely seriously. As he will see as my remarks conclude, we believe that tackling the terrorist threat effectively requires not just a security response, but a wider strategy designed to choke off any potential support for the so-called “dissident groupings”. I think there is widespread acceptance that securing a prosperous Northern Ireland and breaking down sectarian barriers is also an important way to respond in order to eliminate the terrorist threat on a long-term basis. As I say, I will come back to that subject later.
The threat level in Northern Ireland remains “severe”, meaning that an attack is highly likely. No alteration has been made to that Security Service assessment, although, as the right hon. Member for Belfast North recognised, the threat level in Great Britain has been adjusted. We remain vigilant in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain, because the terrorists have capability and they have lethal intent. This year has seen 22 national security attacks in Northern Ireland. Although some may have lacked sophistication, they all had the potential to be deadly. Many involved crude pipe bombs, primarily used to target PSNI officers or their families. The right hon. Gentleman highlighted an attack in his constituency, and another particularly reckless attack was the abandonment of a large improvised explosive device containing more than 600 lb of home-made explosive near the Irish border at Newry—the device was successfully defused, but if it had detonated, it could have led to a significant loss of life. Terrorists continue to seek access to funding and weaponry, and they have been undertaking training as well as targeting. Both republican and loyalist groupings are still involved in a range of criminal activities—mention has been made of this—to fund their activities and individual lifestyles.
Bob Stewart
Is it possible for my right hon. Friend to say publicly where the main sources of funding for terrorism are coming from?
Mrs Villiers
My hon. Friend will appreciate that there is a limit to what can be said publicly, but there can be no doubt that these criminal activities are playing a significant part in funding terrorist activities.
The republican and loyalist groupings also continue to carry out paramilitary-style assaults on members of their own community. Such attacks are sickening and show a complete disregard for the victims and their families. Terrorists also seek to capitalise on any instances of public disorder or unrest. During rioting in north Belfast on 12 July a number of shots were fired at police officers. That should be considered as nothing less than the attempted murder of police officers, who were there simply to uphold the law and protect people from all parts of the community. I would like to assure the right hon. Member for Belfast North that the PSNI gives the highest priority to protecting the safety of its officers. Indeed, one way in which the £200 million that the UK Government allocated as additional spending to counter the terrorist threat is being deployed is in enabling the PSNI to enhance measures to protect its officers. Measures to protect police officers are, of course, kept under constant review by the PSNI. The Chief Constable takes all the steps he can to protect his officers from the terror threat they face, while retaining his firm commitment to community policing.
The right hon. Gentleman emphasised the importance of the home protection scheme. As he said, the Northern Ireland Office has important responsibilities in relation to the scheme, and we keep those under constant review, too. Our scheme exists to protect people in certain occupations or positions in public life who are assessed to be under “substantial” or “severe” threat. The Minister of State considers other applications where an individual is assessed to be under a real or immediate threat, under our obligations under article 2 of the European convention on human rights. The PSNI also runs the criminal threats scheme and home security aid scheme, in addition to the Northern Ireland Office’s programme. A range of security measures are provided depending on the threat in each case—I am afraid that it would not be appropriate for me to go into detail.
Jim Shannon
Intelligence does not always specifically target the correct person; sometimes it does not target the person who has been the subject of a murder attempt or indeed the person who has been murdered. People have come to my office who did not have a specific threat yet travel the same road where people have been murdered or where a murder attempt has been made. Is there not sometimes a need for more flexibility in the system when it comes to assessing not only someone’s individual circumstances, but whether to issue a protection weapon?
Mrs Villiers
Of course in all these cases it is important to look at individual circumstances, and I recommend to anyone who considers that they are under threat that they approach the PSNI about the matter to see what mitigation steps can be taken.
PSNI officers remain the repeated focus of dissident attack planning, with prison officers targeted as well. Terrorist groupings have continued to use hoax devices, acts of criminal damage or orchestrated disorder to create fear in the community and to draw police into situations where they might be vulnerable to attack. That tactic is designed to make it harder for the PSNI to provide community-style policing. It is also, bluntly, aimed at deterring people from joining the police, particularly those from the Catholic community. Yet we should recognise that confidence levels in policing across Northern Ireland have actually risen steadily. Chief Constable Matt Baggott continues to place community policing at the heart of his approach, and the proportion of Catholics in the PSNI has gone up from 8% in 2001 to more than 30% today. The PSNI is genuinely representative of the community it serves, it is one of the most transparent and rigorously scrutinised police services in the world, and I believe that it has the confidence of a significant majority of the people of Northern Ireland. I pay the fullest tribute to the work that Matt Baggott and his officers do in exceptionally difficult circumstances. They carry out their duties with professionalism, impartiality and bravery—that is also true of the Prison Service.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for taking yet another intervention. She quite rightly mentioned the additional resources given to the Chief Constable Matt Baggott and to the PSNI. We are absolutely thrilled that next year the G8 summit will come to Fermanagh. That is not in my constituency, however—could the summit come to North Down next time? Although we are thrilled about that, will the Secretary of State confirm—to the relief of us all—that additional resources will be made available to the PSNI for the increased security commitment? I am sure that the PSNI will deliver on that commitment to the best of its ability, but it needs finance to do so.
Mrs Villiers
We are committed to ensuring that the policing and security operation for the G8 summit is a success. Of course, appropriate resources will be allocated and we will make an announcement in due course, probably in January, about the budget.
As I have said, Prison Service officers also carry out their duties with dedication and courage and I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the work they do. They play a vital role in keeping people in Northern Ireland safe from harm and the Northern Ireland Prison Service keeps arrangements for the personal security of its officers under constant review. The director general of the service, Sue McAllister, is actively considering what further measures might need to be taken in the wake of the attack on David Black and the PSNI has a programme of security briefings under way for prison officers.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way and I apologise for not being in the Chamber from the start of the debate. She explained to the House how she and her colleague the Minister of State have responsibility for the home protection scheme. She is now discussing measures to be taken by the Prison Service and has mentioned measures to be taken by the police service, and following devolution they are the responsibility of the Justice Minister and the various agencies. Will she reassure the House that, although the responsibilities are separate, every effort is being made to ensure that the effectiveness of all the measures is joined together wherever possible?
Mrs Villiers
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I emphasise that working relationships between the Northern Ireland Office and the Justice Minister are very close and I discuss these matters with David Ford regularly, as well as with the Chief Constable. As the right hon. Gentleman said, a united effort that co-ordinates our respective areas of responsibility is crucial in combating terrorism. I have held a number of discussions about the David Black murder with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister, and the Minister of State has been in discussions with the Prison Service, too.
The SPED scheme has been mentioned. It falls within the devolved space but I am happy to pass on the comments made today to the responsible Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive. I am sure that they will wish to reflect carefully on the comments that have been made and I am sure that they take their responsibilities in this matter very seriously.
Personal protection weapons were also mentioned. Issuing or withdrawing personal protection is a matter for the Chief Constable, as the matter is devolved, and the only NIO involvement is when someone appeals against a decision made by the Chief Constable. The director general of the Prison Service met the PSNI recently to ensure that any prison officer who feels they need a PPW can apply to the police under the normal procedures. Following concerns raised after the murder of David Black, Sue McAllister said:
“I have checked and to my knowledge no prison officer has been told that his or her personal protection weapon is to be withdrawn”.
She went on to say:
“I will certainly be making sure that any prison officer who wishes to have a personal protection weapon will be able to apply to the police service as per our procedures.”
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Secretary of State referred to serving members. Will she also take into consideration those men and women who have served their country faithfully and also deserve to receive personal protection weapons in some shape or form?
Mrs Villiers
I am certain that in making decisions on personal protection weapons, the PSNI will have careful regard to the security issues relating to not just present members of the Prison Service but to former members. I am confident that we have a process that is rigorous in assessing those risks and I am sure that they are taken into account by the PSNI. My hon. Friend the Minister of State will also consider them in the appeals process.
Bob Stewart
May I remind the House that it is not just about police officers and prison officers? Sometimes people work more indirectly for the Prison Service or military; they might be a civilian driver, educate the children of people who work there or provide a service, such as cleaning an establishment. Those people are under threat, too, more often than we realise.
Mrs Villiers
I am confident that the PSNI will carefully consider the risks associated with anyone who applies for permission to have a personal protection weapon, whether they carry out the roles described by my hon. Friend or are involved directly in the Prison Service or PSNI.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
I apologise to the House for not being in the Chamber earlier. I do not need to talk further on the subject of weapons in this company, but I believe that many of my former RUC colleagues feel that it is only a matter of time before the PSNI is outgunned by one set of dissidents or another. Does the Secretary of State feel that she has access to enough military resources that can be quickly deployed in the Province?
Mrs Villiers
The PSNI has been very clear that it has the resources it needs to combat the terrorist threat, which includes certain technical support from the military.
For our part, the Government are determined to everything we can to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe and secure. On coming to power we endorsed an additional £50 million for the PSNI. In 2010, our national security strategy included countering Northern Ireland-related terrorism as a tier 1 priority and, as we have heard, an additional £200 million over four years was provided to the PSNI to tackle the threat from terrorism.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North asked what will happen at the end of the period covered by that funding settlement. Those are matters for the forthcoming spending review, but the Government will continue to do all we can to support the PSNI and its partners in their efforts to tackle the terrorist threat. I am sure the points made in the debate today will be carefully considered when decisions are made on future spending reviews.
Jim Shannon
My right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) made a very specific point about the SPED scheme moneys being drawn out of the Department for Social Development’s money. The specific issue affects Northern Ireland, but the security of Northern Ireland is a matter not just for Northern Ireland but for the whole United Kingdom. Will the right hon. Lady consider providing extra funding for the DSD in Northern Ireland to cover the movement of people from house to house through the SPED scheme?
Mrs Villiers
I am sure that when decisions are ultimately taken on the Northern Ireland block grant and future spending reviews, appropriate consideration will be given to the security situation in Northern Ireland.
Ministers and security advisers meet regularly to review our counter-terrorism strategy and to ensure that everything that can be done is being done. Although the threat level remains at “severe” in Northern Ireland, real progress has been made. Excellent co-operation between the PSNI and its partners has put the terrorists under strain in recent months. There have been significant arrests, charges and convictions. In fact, so far this year there have been a total of 143 arrests in Northern Ireland, in addition to a number by An Garda Siochana in the Republic of Ireland. There have also been 52 charges against those involved in national security attacks brought since January 2012, including a number for serious terrorism-related offences. In addition, 25 caches of weapons and improvised explosive devices have been seized.
We remain committed to supporting the PSNI, its partners and Justice Minister David Ford in countering the threat and preventing the so-called dissidents from causing death and destruction. I regularly meet the Tanaiste and the Irish Minister of Justice and discuss these matters, and I am in no doubt that the Irish Government and their police service remain fully committed to tackling terrorism. The relationship between the Garda Siochana and the PSNI is better than ever and it continues to save lives.
As for the question asked by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) on the disclosures about commissioning, she will be aware that the body that carried out the decommissioning process was an independent one. It chose not to publish the inventory of its work, so the Government do not actually have the information to which she referred.
Mr Donaldson
I was involved in the negotiations leading to the Belfast agreement, and in the legislative process here in Parliament. The Government have a statutory duty in relation to decommissioning. The legislation made provision for the publication of an inventory of the weapons that had been decommissioned at the end of the process, so I do not think the Secretary of State can simply evade the issue by saying that the commission was independent. The commission had legislative force from this Parliament and surely, therefore, there is an issue of accountability.
Mrs Villiers
I am happy to look at the matter that the right hon. Gentleman raised and discuss it further with him.
We are resolutely determined to bring an end to the senseless violence that can still cause such pain and loss in Northern Ireland, but as I said earlier, security measures alone will not bring an end to terrorist activity, although of course they remain essential. We also need to build a more prosperous and less divided society if we are finally to force out those violent groupings completely. Northern Ireland still faces many serious economic and social challenges after the troubles. We need to continue efforts to rebalance the economy and revive the private sector, and we must tackle sectarianism and the causes of division in society, which can fuel the discontent on which terrorists will try to capitalise.
Addressing ongoing community segregation is not just a social and political priority; it is a security priority as well. That is one of the reasons why, in his speech to the Assembly last year, the Prime Minister emphasised the crucial importance of building a genuinely shared future for Northern Ireland. The UK Government remain committed to working closely with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive in their efforts to deliver that shared society.
However, we must not forget how far Northern Ireland has come since the dark days of the troubles. As rightly highlighted by the right hon. Member for Belfast North, we have unprecedented political stability. For the most part, people go about their daily lives in a way that would have been unthinkable in the past; and in so many ways Northern Ireland is now projecting itself on the world stage for the right reasons.
This year we have seen Northern Ireland host the Irish golf open, the Olympic torch relay, the Titanic centenary events and, of course, the fantastically successful visit by Her Majesty the Queen. Next year will see the world police and fire games bring more than 20,000 competitors and spectators to Northern Ireland. Derry-Londonderry will be the UK city of culture. It will host the Fleadh which is being held in Northern Ireland for the first time. Also, as we have heard, it is now officially, according to “Lonely Planet”, the fourth best city in the world to visit.
As announced yesterday by the Prime Minister, the Government are recognising once again the transformation that has taken place in Northern Ireland by bringing the leaders of eight of the world’s largest economies to County Fermanagh. County Fermanagh will genuinely be the centre of the world in June next year. The G8 conference will showcase Northern Ireland as an inspirational setting for world leaders to discuss ambitious solutions to pressing global problems. As the First Minister said yesterday, that would have been unthinkable only a few years ago. It demonstrates a modern, confident, forward-looking Northern Ireland.
This Government in no way underestimate the severity of the ongoing security threat. We remain vigilant. The House should be in no doubt that we will do everything we can to protect the people of our country from terrorism; and we will continue to support the PSNI, the Executive and the community in ensuring that the terrorists do not succeed in their aims. The people of Northern Ireland have achieved so much over the past 20 years and they are determined to continue the hard-won progress that has been made. The overwhelming majority stand by the principle that Northern Ireland’s future will only ever be determined by democracy and by consent, and not by violence. The Government will continue to be vigilant in combating the terrorist threat as an essential part of our wider efforts to deliver a peaceful, stable and prosperous Northern Ireland, of which all its citizens can be proud and in which everyone has a genuinely shared future.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning)
It is an honour and a privilege to stand here as the Minister of State for Northern Ireland. I have taken questions in this capacity, but this is my first debate.
May I say at the outset that even though there may be disagreements across the House—and we have seen a tiny bit of that today—we all want peace in Northern Ireland? The peace process has given us the ability to sit in this Chamber and discuss, fairly rationally, a difficult situation. In the past, that would have been more difficult or would not have happened at all. It certainly would not have taken place in the tone that we have heard today.
May I also, at the outset, place on the record my thoughts and prayers for the family of David Black? I was at his funeral with the Secretary of State, the shadow Secretary of State and other Members. It was one of the most moving funerals that I have ever attended. The way in which his children—they probably will not like my calling them children at their age, and I will probably get into trouble with my own daughter for calling them children—held themselves together to pay tribute to their father was enormously moving, as I said a few moments ago.
Although I was not at Enniskillen, I was at Corporal Day’s funeral. If had known that the First Minister was flying down, I would have flown down with him so that I could have been at both. However, it might have been a tight squeeze. In the next debate, I will perhaps make some further comments on Corporal Day and her loved ones.
The debate was rightly opened by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). In his wide-ranging speech, which has been reiterated by many other Members, the main thing that he called on Her Majesty’s Government to do was to be steadfast and give a long-term commitment to stamping out terrorism in Northern Ireland, no matter which side it comes from. We give that commitment today, as have the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State on previous occasions.
Yesterday, the Prime Minister reiterated the point at meetings with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and told them, “As your Chief Constable said, you need more.” I said exactly the same to the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister, David Ford, and the Secretary of State has also said that. We meet regularly; my door is permanently open, my phone is on, and we can talk about many of the issues that we need to discuss. If there is a need, however, we will address it.
There has been much discussion of the £200 million from the contingency fund. That money has been on a two-year draw-down. A lot of it was drawn down early as it had to be for capital projects—what I call capital projects are slightly different from what others call them and include vehicles as well as buildings. We also needed money for people and ongoing revenue costs. The Government are working with David Ford and the Chief Constable to look at exactly how that money was spent, so that we can go back to the Treasury and say, “See, we need this funding again—or we will do in three years’ time.” We do not need a brand—new vehicle straight away, but that time will come. There is CCTV—technology moves on very fast, and we must ensure there is something in the pot for that. If we go back to the Treasury, it will probably not be for contingency funding. We would not do that in a normal spending round and would keep spending within the allocation.
We are, however, conscious that there are exceptional circumstances, particularly at the moment. The group likes to be called the “new IRA”, but that is the last time I will stand at the Dispatch Box and say that because there is nothing new about thuggery, murderers and people of that description. We give them oxygen by giving them that badge—they may think it is a badge of honour but it is exactly the opposite. Those people are thugs and murderers who are living in the past. They are trying to drag people—a lot of them young people—into what went on in the past, and we must do everything possible to address that.
There have been 16 contributions, 11 of which were not interventions but proper speeches. I will not be able to answer every question raised, but my officials have diligently taken notes and I will write to right hon. and hon. Members if I do not address their particular points now. One of the final points raised concerned how many personal protection weapons have been removed. I have been in this job for three and a half months but I do not know that figure off the top of my head. It was probably an obvious question and I should have had a response ready, but I will write to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and let him know.
The process is quite simple. There is an appeals process and a decision is made by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland either for a new weapon or for a weapons licence to be renewed. If that is declined, the case is referred to me on appeal. I assure hon. Members that I look at every individual case—I have had quite a few in the first couple of weeks, and think I might see some more.
I raised personal protection weapons when I met the head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service, and I will soon meet a representative of the Prison Officers Association, which I phoned the following day. The head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service told me categorically that any prison officer who needs a weapon will get one or has got one.
A lot of prison officers were not taking their weapons home. The issue of complacency was touched on during the debate, and I will come on to people checking their vehicles and so on in a moment. A lot of weapons were being left in the armoury at work and not being taken home. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We need to reiterate people’s personal responsibilities, as well as those of the state and employers. I concur with what was said about people having things taken away and being given a piece of paper, and more needs to be done on that. I know, for instance, that the PSNI has already visited and is giving seminars and doing work with prison officers to increase their awareness and ensure that measures are in place to help them.
In the last couple of months I have also looked carefully at home protection. I met Lord Carlile, the Chief Constable and David Ford to look at that issue, and we will look carefully at having a more level playing field. I do not care who someone is employed by; if they are doing a job, protecting people and are at risk, the situation should be the same for everyone. The system does not operate that way at the moment, and we will look carefully at the issue.
I could not go further without addressing the two points made in interventions by my friend the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)—[Interruption.] She is a friend to me. First, on a commemoration for the 30 prison officers, it would be right and proper for us to have a round-table discussion with all interested people. I recently opened a new memorial in my constituency to those who have fallen since the second world war. The memorial, which was unveiled the day before Remembrance day this year, was provided by public donation. We could certainly look at her suggestion and have that discussion.
Secondly, on how much weaponry was taken away, the Prime Minister has said in the House that we do not have the list—it is not within the Government’s archives. The Secretary of State has offered to meet the hon. Lady, and we can see how that goes, but we genuinely do not have the list to release. The Prime Minister has said that, and I have had it checked during the debate.
Lady Hermon
I thank the Minister very much indeed for agreeing to a round-table discussion on a memorial garden for those 30 prison officers, which is wholly appropriate. I would hope that Finlay Spratt and others will be there.
On the inventory of decommissioned weapons, I welcome the Minister’s explanation that the Government appear not to have the document, but will he kindly confirm what is believed, which is that the document, the inventories and the details are kept in the university of Boston in America? Will the Minister clarify that if I were an academic, I could go to Boston and have open access to the inventories, but the people of Northern Ireland, and the MPs representing Northern Ireland, cannot see them? That is ludicrous.
Mike Penning
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and am pleased about the work we will look to do on the memorial.
On decommissioned weapons, the hon. Lady said earlier that we must not hide behind the independent body. Look at the size of me—I could not behind anybody! I am not hiding behind anything. I will discuss the matters the hon. Lady has mentioned with my officials, but I personally do not know where the hell those details are. She is much better informed than I, given the short time I have been in this job. The Secretary of State and officials will talk this through with the hon. Lady when they meet, but I have to go with the information I have been given.
Hon. Members have spoken of the terrible, appalling murder of David Black not only because it was a terrible murder, but because of how it was done. One thing that the police and forensics are looking at is exactly where that high-velocity weapon came from and where it has been stored. We know the weapon, but we do not know where it has been stored. Hon. Members have mentioned close protection weapons, but based on the evidence we have seen so far, David Black would not have been saved by one. Anyone willing to put so many people’s lives at risk by driving at speed on a motorway at 7.30 am while opening up with a high-velocity weapon shows a lack of care for other people that beggars belief.
Interestingly, those people are a bunch of cowards—they do not want to get hurt themselves but they put other people in the position of getting hurt—and they do not want to get caught, but their action was very risky. It is important that we try to understand where these dissident republicans are going rather than thinking back to the past and learning what they used to do. Some of their technology and methodology has not changed, but some things they are starting to do are different—probably out of desperation, but who knows?
I have promised to write to hon. Members if I do not deal with their points now, but in the one minute remaining I want to reiterate what the Prime Minister said yesterday when he was in Northern Ireland. It is significant that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom went to Northern Ireland to meet people in the very successful factory where they work. I got trapped with the owners on the plane coming back. They were so chuffed—it was absolutely brilliant for them to meet the Prime Minister and for their staff to have that personal contact. The Prime Minister reiterated—as did the Secretary of State—that we will work with the Opposition. We will work with anyone, and if some of these groups, on any side, want to meet me, I am more than happy to meet them anywhere. It is really important that we engage with them and try to dispel the concept that they could win anything by such actions. We need to work together, and we will give everything necessary, in security terms and in cost terms, to the PSNI and the other security services to ensure that the people of Northern Ireland go forward, not back into the terrible abyss of before.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and the security forces generally, and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland.