Security in Northern Ireland

Mike Penning Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning)]

It is an honour and a privilege to stand here as the Minister of State for Northern Ireland. I have taken questions in this capacity, but this is my first debate.

May I say at the outset that even though there may be disagreements across the House—and we have seen a tiny bit of that today—we all want peace in Northern Ireland? The peace process has given us the ability to sit in this Chamber and discuss, fairly rationally, a difficult situation. In the past, that would have been more difficult or would not have happened at all. It certainly would not have taken place in the tone that we have heard today.

May I also, at the outset, place on the record my thoughts and prayers for the family of David Black? I was at his funeral with the Secretary of State, the shadow Secretary of State and other Members. It was one of the most moving funerals that I have ever attended. The way in which his children—they probably will not like my calling them children at their age, and I will probably get into trouble with my own daughter for calling them children—held themselves together to pay tribute to their father was enormously moving, as I said a few moments ago.

Although I was not at Enniskillen, I was at Corporal Day’s funeral. If had known that the First Minister was flying down, I would have flown down with him so that I could have been at both. However, it might have been a tight squeeze. In the next debate, I will perhaps make some further comments on Corporal Day and her loved ones.

The debate was rightly opened by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). In his wide-ranging speech, which has been reiterated by many other Members, the main thing that he called on Her Majesty’s Government to do was to be steadfast and give a long-term commitment to stamping out terrorism in Northern Ireland, no matter which side it comes from. We give that commitment today, as have the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State on previous occasions.

Yesterday, the Prime Minister reiterated the point at meetings with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and told them, “As your Chief Constable said, you need more.” I said exactly the same to the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister, David Ford, and the Secretary of State has also said that. We meet regularly; my door is permanently open, my phone is on, and we can talk about many of the issues that we need to discuss. If there is a need, however, we will address it.

There has been much discussion of the £200 million from the contingency fund. That money has been on a two-year draw-down. A lot of it was drawn down early as it had to be for capital projects—what I call capital projects are slightly different from what others call them and include vehicles as well as buildings. We also needed money for people and ongoing revenue costs. The Government are working with David Ford and the Chief Constable to look at exactly how that money was spent, so that we can go back to the Treasury and say, “See, we need this funding again—or we will do in three years’ time.” We do not need a brand—new vehicle straight away, but that time will come. There is CCTV—technology moves on very fast, and we must ensure there is something in the pot for that. If we go back to the Treasury, it will probably not be for contingency funding. We would not do that in a normal spending round and would keep spending within the allocation.

We are, however, conscious that there are exceptional circumstances, particularly at the moment. The group likes to be called the “new IRA”, but that is the last time I will stand at the Dispatch Box and say that because there is nothing new about thuggery, murderers and people of that description. We give them oxygen by giving them that badge—they may think it is a badge of honour but it is exactly the opposite. Those people are thugs and murderers who are living in the past. They are trying to drag people—a lot of them young people—into what went on in the past, and we must do everything possible to address that.

There have been 16 contributions, 11 of which were not interventions but proper speeches. I will not be able to answer every question raised, but my officials have diligently taken notes and I will write to right hon. and hon. Members if I do not address their particular points now. One of the final points raised concerned how many personal protection weapons have been removed. I have been in this job for three and a half months but I do not know that figure off the top of my head. It was probably an obvious question and I should have had a response ready, but I will write to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and let him know.

The process is quite simple. There is an appeals process and a decision is made by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland either for a new weapon or for a weapons licence to be renewed. If that is declined, the case is referred to me on appeal. I assure hon. Members that I look at every individual case—I have had quite a few in the first couple of weeks, and think I might see some more.

I raised personal protection weapons when I met the head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service, and I will soon meet a representative of the Prison Officers Association, which I phoned the following day. The head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service told me categorically that any prison officer who needs a weapon will get one or has got one.

A lot of prison officers were not taking their weapons home. The issue of complacency was touched on during the debate, and I will come on to people checking their vehicles and so on in a moment. A lot of weapons were being left in the armoury at work and not being taken home. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We need to reiterate people’s personal responsibilities, as well as those of the state and employers. I concur with what was said about people having things taken away and being given a piece of paper, and more needs to be done on that. I know, for instance, that the PSNI has already visited and is giving seminars and doing work with prison officers to increase their awareness and ensure that measures are in place to help them.

In the last couple of months I have also looked carefully at home protection. I met Lord Carlile, the Chief Constable and David Ford to look at that issue, and we will look carefully at having a more level playing field. I do not care who someone is employed by; if they are doing a job, protecting people and are at risk, the situation should be the same for everyone. The system does not operate that way at the moment, and we will look carefully at the issue.

I could not go further without addressing the two points made in interventions by my friend the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)—[Interruption.] She is a friend to me. First, on a commemoration for the 30 prison officers, it would be right and proper for us to have a round-table discussion with all interested people. I recently opened a new memorial in my constituency to those who have fallen since the second world war. The memorial, which was unveiled the day before Remembrance day this year, was provided by public donation. We could certainly look at her suggestion and have that discussion.

Secondly, on how much weaponry was taken away, the Prime Minister has said in the House that we do not have the list—it is not within the Government’s archives. The Secretary of State has offered to meet the hon. Lady, and we can see how that goes, but we genuinely do not have the list to release. The Prime Minister has said that, and I have had it checked during the debate.

[Lady Hermon]

I thank the Minister very much indeed for agreeing to a round-table discussion on a memorial garden for those 30 prison officers, which is wholly appropriate. I would hope that Finlay Spratt and others will be there.

On the inventory of decommissioned weapons, I welcome the Minister’s explanation that the Government appear not to have the document, but will he kindly confirm what is believed, which is that the document, the inventories and the details are kept in the university of Boston in America? Will the Minister clarify that if I were an academic, I could go to Boston and have open access to the inventories, but the people of Northern Ireland, and the MPs representing Northern Ireland, cannot see them? That is ludicrous.

[Mike Penning]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and am pleased about the work we will look to do on the memorial.

On decommissioned weapons, the hon. Lady said earlier that we must not hide behind the independent body. Look at the size of me—I could not behind anybody! I am not hiding behind anything. I will discuss the matters the hon. Lady has mentioned with my officials, but I personally do not know where the hell those details are. She is much better informed than I, given the short time I have been in this job. The Secretary of State and officials will talk this through with the hon. Lady when they meet, but I have to go with the information I have been given.

Hon. Members have spoken of the terrible, appalling murder of David Black not only because it was a terrible murder, but because of how it was done. One thing that the police and forensics are looking at is exactly where that high-velocity weapon came from and where it has been stored. We know the weapon, but we do not know where it has been stored. Hon. Members have mentioned close protection weapons, but based on the evidence we have seen so far, David Black would not have been saved by one. Anyone willing to put so many people’s lives at risk by driving at speed on a motorway at 7.30 am while opening up with a high-velocity weapon shows a lack of care for other people that beggars belief.

Interestingly, those people are a bunch of cowards—they do not want to get hurt themselves but they put other people in the position of getting hurt—and they do not want to get caught, but their action was very risky. It is important that we try to understand where these dissident republicans are going rather than thinking back to the past and learning what they used to do. Some of their technology and methodology has not changed, but some things they are starting to do are different—probably out of desperation, but who knows?

I have promised to write to hon. Members if I do not deal with their points now, but in the one minute remaining I want to reiterate what the Prime Minister said yesterday when he was in Northern Ireland. It is significant that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom went to Northern Ireland to meet people in the very successful factory where they work. I got trapped with the owners on the plane coming back. They were so chuffed—it was absolutely brilliant for them to meet the Prime Minister and for their staff to have that personal contact. The Prime Minister reiterated—as did the Secretary of State—that we will work with the Opposition. We will work with anyone, and if some of these groups, on any side, want to meet me, I am more than happy to meet them anywhere. It is really important that we engage with them and try to dispel the concept that they could win anything by such actions. We need to work together, and we will give everything necessary, in security terms and in cost terms, to the PSNI and the other security services to ensure that the people of Northern Ireland go forward, not back into the terrible abyss of before.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and the security forces generally, and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland.