Outsourcing: Government Departments

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Westminster Hall

[Andy McDonald]

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words and wholeheartedly agree with his comments. The whole premise of outsourcing has been to reduce costs, and that is visited on the workforce in terms of pay and other terms and conditions, with the disproportionate impact that he describes, which I will come on to shortly.

All too often, wider social, environmental and economic implications have been eclipsed by the pursuit of narrow short-term cost savings, with an insufficient assessment of the overall costs and longer-term impacts. Since 1979, under the Conservatives, starting with compulsory competitive tendering, there has been a huge growth of private business involvement in public service delivery and its scale. That has resulted in more fragmented, poorer-quality services run by companies seeking to renegotiate contract terms, with staff—often women and minority ethnic employees, as my hon. Friend described—the subject of squeezed terms and salaries.

The last Labour Government invested in public services but did not slow the growth of outsourcing. That allowed the coalition to expand it further, with austerity encouraging public bodies to turn to outsourcing as a means of reducing costs, while ideologically driving it through a White Paper, “Open Public Services”, which argued that few services should be exempt from outsourcing. That is where we were in the run-up to the recent general election, before which Labour set out a clear message on outsourcing.

In February 2021, at the height of the covid pandemic, the now Chancellor set out her concerns about outsourcing. Spend on outsourcing was worth £249 billion in 2014-15, and by 2019-20 had reached £296 billion—a significant sum that dwarfs the NHS budget. She said:

“Outsourced services are not integrated into the fabric of our communities. Unlike our public services and providers, like charities, many of which offer vital frontline services, outsourced companies have not built up trust over time and lack the vital local knowledge and flexibility required.”

Furthermore, she added:

“A shadow state has emerged and it is unaccountable to the people. Even before the pandemic, the government spent an extraordinary £292bn on outsourcing over a third of all public spending and that level is rising year on year. The public pays for these contracts yet so often it cannot adequately scrutinise many of them. This secrecy must stop.”

To set out the case for insourcing, I want to highlight the experience of outsourced workers represented by a number of unions. In the civil service, the Public and Commercial Services Union states that the two-tier gap between directly employed and outsourced workers is widening as pay and terms and conditions for the latter erode, with civil servants reliant on universal credit and workplace food banks. Departments’ budgets are stretched as they deal with the inefficiency of picking up the cost of tendering and awarding contacts, which have to deliver a profit for the contractors.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. PCS workers in my constituency who work for the Disclosure and Barring Service are currently in dispute because of inadequate contracts, which put additional burden and stress on them. PCS has continually called for the insourcing of those contracts. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government need to commit to their policy of insourcing? It is not only workers who are suffering, but children and other adults, because of the outsourcing of local authority services. That needs to change immediately.

[Andy McDonald]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. That is yet another example of the tension and conflict between delivering high-quality public services and driving down costs, which leaves the people who deliver the services in poverty. That has to be addressed.

Similarly, in the railways, the RMT says that outsourced workers struggle to make ends meet, and it directly attributes that to outsourcing firms profiting from low pay. Many outsourced workers’ wages are anchored to the minimum wage, and they do not have the right to occupational sick pay and decent pay schemes. The RMT argues that insourcing would not only lift living standards by putting money into people’s pockets, but raise workers’ productivity, tackle structural inequality and even achieve greater efficiency in public spending. It is time to start a wave of insourcing now.

In the civil service, the Government have come into office with numerous disputes having recently taken place, or currently taking place, between outsourced service contractors and their employees, including various instances of industrial action. That is disruptive and costly to the civil service, and it is a result of those service providers holding down the pay of their staff, particularly in facilities maintenance areas such as cleaning, catering and security.

PCS, the union representing those workers, wrote to the Prime Minister in mid-July to discuss matters faced by workers across the UK civil service, including those working in contracted out and devolved areas. I know that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster met with the FDA, Prospect and PCS in June, at the earliest opportunity after taking office, but the number of civil service disputes in contracts inherited from the Government’s predecessors requires action. There are multiple disputes involving PCS members employed as cleaners, post room staff, porters, catering and reception staff in several Government Departments, and they are not limited to one outsourced employer, but concern G4S, ISS and OCS.

Grenfell Tower Inquiry Phase 2 Report

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

A passage in the report highlights two groups: one group is the TMO, the businesses and those charged with responsibility, and the other is those who lived in the tower. Those groups were treated differently before, during and after the tragedy, which relates to the question of esteem that the hon. Lady rightly touches on. We must stop talking about the issue and act on it.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)]

My thoughts today are with the families and loved ones of the 72 people who died so tragically in the fire. As the report identifies, those deaths were entirely “avoidable” and were the result of corporate greed, because profits were put before people. Some 3,000 medium and high-rise buildings are still being monitored by the Government because they are clad in unsafe cladding. Will the Prime Minister state how he will support leaseholders living in those buildings, whose lives are on hold at the moment? I stand in solidarity with the families in support of justice. I hope they do not wait as long as the Hillsborough families.

[The Prime Minister]

Many premises are being monitored. That needs to continue. We need to bear down on all the relevant authorities to ensure they are safe and give leaseholders the support they need.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)]

16. Whether he plans to increase the number of facilities management services that are insourced within Government Departments and agencies.

[The Minister without Portfolio (Ellie Reeves)]

The Government will always aim to secure value for money in meeting their facilities management requirements. Our plan to make work pay is clear that we will call time on the previous Government’s ideological approach to outsourcing and ensure that decisions are based on robust assessments of value for money, service quality, social value and, crucially, delivering the best outcomes.

[Ellie Reeves]

My hon. Friend is right that too many decisions about outsourcing were ideologically driven under the previous Government, without consideration for things such as social value or service quality. That is why we have said that we will do things differently. Social value and outcomes will be at the heart of that. Our new deal for working people will transform the world of work.

[Kim Johnson]

The outsourcing of facility management services roles such as cleaning, catering and security has disproportionately impacted women and black workers, who have suffered a reduction in their pay, terms and conditions. The Government have promised to bring about the biggest wave of insourcing of public services in a generation. With that in mind, will the Minister agree to examine the benefits of insourcing facilities management services, particularly with regard to performance and tackling discriminatory outcomes on pay? Will she meet representatives of the Public and Commercial Services Union to discuss this matter further?

[Ellie Reeves]

My hon. Friend is right that under the previous Government, too many jobs such as cleaning and security were insecure, with a race to the bottom on standards and pay. Our plan to make work pay will ensure that all jobs are secure, fulfilling and well-paid. My hon. Friend also mentioned the disproportionate impact on ethnic minorities and women; that is why we said in the King’s Speech that we would introduce an equality Bill to enshrine in law the right to equal pay for ethnic minorities and disabled people, and introduce mandatory ethnicity and disability pay reporting.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Paulette Hamilton (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

2. What steps her Department is taking to help increase diversity and inclusion in the STEM workforce.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

10. What steps her Department is taking to help increase diversity and inclusion in the STEM workforce.

[The Minister for Science, Research and Innovation (Andrew Griffith)]

The science and technology framework sets out our commitment to expanding STEM—science, technology, engineering and maths—opportunities to the most diverse range of people possible. We have acted swiftly to identify and dismantle any barriers to entry. As a result, we have seen major improvements in recent years, although there is always more to do.

[Andrew Griffith]

The hon. Lady raises a very important point on National Numeracy Day. While we must not be complacent, the Government have made outstanding progress on equality for all. I hope she will join me in congratulating teachers in her constituency, and up and down the country, on the fact that last year, under this Government, girls made up 52%—a majority—of all science entries at A-level.

[Kim Johnson]

The Institute of Cancer Research has made positive steps on diversifying representation in STEM through its apprenticeship scheme. Can the Minister say what, if any, lessons he is taking from that very positive initiative, in particular to increase representation in respect of ethnic diversity?

[Andrew Griffith]

I congratulate the Institute of Cancer Research on that progress. I would be delighted to meet the institute and hear what development it is making, as would my hon. Friends. This Government have increased the number of apprenticeships. Unfortunately, under the Opposition’s proposals the number of apprenticeships would halve.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

We agree; that is why we have the shared rural network programme, which is dealing with a lot of those notspot problems.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

Black students studying science, technology, engineering and maths subjects are leaving education in great numbers. What is the Minister doing to identify the challenges and help the progression of black students in STEM subjects?

Iran-Israel Update

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We have been consistently clear that we are concerned about the humanitarian situation in Gaza. We have called on the Israelis to open up more aid corridors and have them open more often; they set out a series of steps just recently, and now we want to see them deliver on those.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

The middle east is in a crisis, and I and thousands of my Riverside constituents have been calling for a ceasefire to end the destruction in Gaza and prevent a widening conflict in the middle east. The Prime Minister has talked about diplomatic action towards a two-state solution. Can he say what action he is taking against the far-right Ministers in the Israeli Government who are opposed to a two-state solution?

[The Prime Minister]

We have been very clear that our view is that we should have a two-state solution, and we are making sure we do everything we can to contribute to that aim.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am sorry to hear about the delays faced by my hon. Friend’s constituents, which I know will be disruptive to their lives. It is important that we have proper connectivity in our local areas, and I will ensure that he gets the relevant meeting he needs to put pressure on Network Rail to improve the service it is providing.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

Q13. Children and young adults are most likely to be the victims or perpetrators of knife crime. Ava White was 12 years old when she was stabbed and killed by a 14-year-old in Liverpool city centre in 2021. Danny Jamieson was 16 when he died as a result of knife crime. Their mothers, Leann and Mandy, are campaigning for tougher sentences for knife crime. Will the Prime Minister support the Danny and Ava campaign to end the scourge of knife crime on our streets?

[The Prime Minister]

I express my condolences to Danny and Ava’s families, and the families of all the young people whose lives have been so tragically cut short by knife crime. We have plans in place to cut knife crime, and they are working—we have confiscated over 120,000 weapons, we have cut violent crime in half since 2010, and more dangerous criminals are going to jail for longer. We are bringing forward legislation to increase sentences for knife crime and to ban zombie knives, and I very much hope that the hon. Lady and her party will support those proposals when they are put before the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 7th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Laura Farris]

I say to the hon. Lady that that is not accepted. In fact, the Health Secretary made an announcement on maternal services this week; I think it would be appropriate to refer to my colleagues at the Department of Health and Social Care, and then I will write to the hon. Lady on this point.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

3. Whether she has had recent discussions with the Domestic Abuse Commissioner on taking steps to help tackle so-called honour-based abuse.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Laura Farris)]

I meet the Domestic Abuse Commissioner regularly, and our last joint visit was to a refuge for minoritised women for whom honour-based abuse was a specific issue. It is important work of the Home Office to look at the specific harms connected with this issue. One of the things we are most proud of is our forced marriage unit, which has provided support services to more than 300 cases in the past year. We also fund a national honour-based abuse helpline, which has helped more than 2,500 people in the past 12 months.

[Kim Johnson]

Savera UK, which is based in my constituency, and the Domestic Abuse Commissioner are concerned by this Government’s failure to provide a statutory definition of so-called honour-based abuse. Does the Minister agree that that will lead to under-reporting and a lack of detail on the scale of the problem?

[Laura Farris]

I am afraid that the Government take the opposite view. We use the expression honour-based abuse, which has been controversial in itself, because often victims understand it the best. Victims of honour-based abuse are often the hardest to reach, and sometimes are the least able to articulate their claims and to escape their circumstance. We keep the definition wide to capture successfully all the various insidious forms that it takes. Let me reassure the hon. Lady that both the Crown Prosecution Service and the Home Office use a working definition to guide investigations and, so far, it is proving effective.

Israel and Gaza

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right that we need to redouble our efforts and inject fresh energy into demonstrating progress towards that better future. The most immediate thing we can do is ensure that there is a future in Gaza after Hamas that provides Palestinians with the opportunity to live with dignity and security. That is something that we are actively engaged on with our international counterparts.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

Prime Minister, you state in your statement that you stand with the people of Palestine and recognise their suffering, but according to NGOs on the ground in Gaza, 100 children are dying every day due to Israeli aerial bombardment. Military solutions are not going to end this conflict. Only an immediate ceasefire will, so are you going to call for an immediate ceasefire—yes or no?

[The Prime Minister]

This House stands united in saying that Israel has a right to defend itself. Then it should stand united with Israel’s right to defend itself in line with international humanitarian law.

Israel and Gaza

Kim Johnson Excerpts

Monday 16th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments—he is rightly a champion of the Jewish community in his constituency. Like him, I am clear that there is zero tolerance of antisemitism in the UK. We will continue to do everything we can to ensure the security and safety of our Jewish citizens.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

I stand with this House in condemnation of Hamas’s appalling killing of innocent Israeli civilians and call for the immediate safe return of all the hostages, but I am very concerned about the increasing numbers of deaths of innocent Palestinians. The forced mass displacement of Gazans is leading to a massive humanitarian crisis, so can the Prime Minister explain what the Government are doing to prevent this? Has he demanded an immediate ceasefire to end the collective punishment of civilians?

[The Prime Minister]

I believe that we must absolutely support Israel’s right to defend itself and to ensure that attacks like this cannot happen again, but as a friend, we will continue to call on Israel to take every precaution to avoid harming civilians, and we will provide humanitarian support.