Defence Programmes Developments
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(1 month ago)
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John Healey
I appreciate my hon. Friend’s comments, and the reminder to this House of the dossier of defence waste that we did indeed work on together in opposition. I can confirm to him and the House that I have commissioned an internal audit of waste, but I have not waited for the results of that; I have already reduced the consultancy spend by £300 million this year. It was set to be a ballooned £1 billion over three years for consultancy and extra staff. I have also scrapped the Tories’ £40 million VIP helicopter contract, which was money spent on moving VIPs around the country, rather than investing in our servicemen and women, which we can now do.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
This is a black day for the Royal Marines. I advise the Defence Secretary that he would do well to have a look at the report, “Sunset for the Royal Marines?”, which was published by the Defence Committee in February 2018, when the issue of scrapping our amphibious assault ships was described by the cross-party Committee as “militarily illiterate” and totally at variance with strategic reality. Does he accept that the purpose of HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, which were due to remain in service for nine and 10 more years respectively, is to have the capability of making a landing across a foreshore when it is opposed by enemy forces, just as the Fearless and Intrepid did the job before Albion and Bulwark? Does he agree that we have no way of knowing whether the absence of that capability for the next decade will be an incentive for somebody to try something like the Falklands?
John Healey
I have a huge amount of respect for the right hon. Gentleman. He led the Committee that produced an important report, but it was six years ago. Far from it being “a black day”, as he says, this statement signals a bright future, which will be reinforced by the SDR for the Marines and their elite force. On HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, he is right that both ships were not due to go out of service for nine and 10 years respectively, but neither—given the state they are in and decisions taken by the last Government—were set to sail again. In other words, they had in practice been taken out of service, but Ministers had not been willing to admit that. Our three Bay-class landing ships and RFA Argus for now will continue to provide, as they do currently, the amphibious capability. That will allow us to save at least £9 million a year that would have been spent under the previous plans, and it will allow us to focus much more strongly on the multi-role support ships, which promise to have a greater capability and a broader range of ability for the future.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(1 month ago)
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John Healey
At each stage, we have tried to respond to the requirements that the Ukrainians say that they have to match the state of their battle to defend their country. We have announced packages of artillery, of ammunition and of air defence, which is one of their most critical needs at present, including recently a new contract to supply short-range air defence missiles—the lightweight multi-role missiles. Those will be in Ukrainian hands at the turn of the year. We expect to step up that production and delivery during the course of next year.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State share my concern at the recent media interview given by a leading candidate to be Labour’s next ambassador to Washington DC? This supposedly clever negotiator declared that Ukraine should not expect to get its territory back, and should not expect to be put on the path to join NATO, but could perhaps secure some security guarantees from western countries. Does the Secretary of State agree that whoever is sent to Washington should be somebody who supports Ukraine in defending itself and does not reward Russian aggression with pre-emptive capitulation?
John Healey
One of the first privileges I had in this new role was to represent the country at the NATO Washington summit. That was the point at which the NATO nations collectively agreed to step up support for Ukraine and to develop the security guarantees that Ukraine will need in the longer term. The task for us and allies that support Ukraine is to help Ukrainians and support them in their fight now. At the point at which they judge the talking should start, our role then is to give them equally steadfast support, and we will.
Defence: 2.5% GDP Spending Commitment
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(1 month, 1 week ago)
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John Healey
I welcome the fact that 23 NATO nations will hit the 2% spend this year. I regard that as a floor, not a ceiling. The UK, under Governments of both parties, has always spent well above and set the pace for other European countries. We will continue to do that, because European countries in NATO must take on more of the NATO leadership. We are determined that the UK will do that, which is why we have said that our approach to defence will be a NATO-first policy. We will, wherever we can, look to be first in NATO, so that we set the pace on the sort of transformation to the better equipped, better able and more lethal forces that our nations need to deter adversaries and to defend ourselves if required.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Secretary of State is right that we used to spend a lot more than 2%: in the 1980s we spent between 4.5% and 5.1% of GDP on defence. Does he share my concern at what I heard on the radio this morning, when a Labour politician in another place was saying that he could see an outcome in Ukraine whereby Russia gets to keep the territory it has occupied, while Ukraine does not get any guarantee of joining NATO but merely some more security assurances? We know what happened last time with the security assurances previously given. Does the Secretary of State agree that, whether we spend 2.5% on defence now or in the near future, it is important that whoever we send to Washington does not capitulate in advance?
John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman made the important point, implicitly in his question, that it is the Ukrainians who are fighting and the Ukrainians who will make the call about whether to talk and on what terms. Our task, as one of the leading supporters of Ukraine and its fight for sovereignty, freedom and its own future, is to support it and to step up our support for its fight, and then to step up our support, if necessary and whenever required, in any negotiations, as well as to play our part, as we have made the commitment to do, in providing any security guarantees for the longer term.
Remembrance and Veterans
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
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John Healey
The legacy Act is without supporters in the communities in Northern Ireland, on any side. That is one of the reasons why it should be repealed. In the process of repeal, we will take fully into account the concerns and position of veterans, who have given such service, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly says, and their families.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I am grateful to the Defence Secretary for giving way; he is always very courteous. When I was on a previous iteration of the Defence Committee, we produced an in-depth report on the best way forward after the troubles, called “Drawing a line: Protecting veterans by a Statute of Limitations”. It recommended ending prosecutions and substituting a truth recovery process. People from, shall we say, some of the Northern Irish parties felt compelled to condemn it on the Floor of the House, but quietly came up to me afterwards and admitted that it was the only way forward. Just because there is this performative condemnation by different communities, he should not be diverted from the fact that what was good enough for Nelson Mandela in South Africa should be good enough for us.
John Healey
For me, one of the great strengths of the House and Parliament is the work of the all-party Select Committees. The right hon. Gentleman’s Committee, during that time, did the House and the wider cause of peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland a service. We will take those points into account. I do not think that anybody could point their finger at the current Northern Ireland Secretary and say that he is not a serious figure, or that he could remotely be accused of performative politics. He will take very seriously his duty to lead the repeal of the legacy Act and find a way forward that takes everybody with us.
Remembrance Sunday is a moment when the nation comes together to honour those who have served, those who have fought and, above all, those who have made the ultimate sacrifice of their life to defend our country, preserve our freedoms and protect our way of life. To all those who serve and have served, on behalf of the country, I offer a profound thank you.
This will be the first time many new Members have the privilege of representing their constituency at remembrance parades, ceremonies and services. I encourage all to play their fullest part, and to go into their schools to join in the lessons and projects that will take place in the run-up to Remembrance Day, because remembrance is not just an opportunity to show our gratitude and pride; it is an opportunity to learn, and to teach the next generation about the service and sacrifice of those who came before. Given that the number of veterans in this country will fall by a third in this decade, it is clear that we need to do more at all levels to reinforce the country’s understanding of and commitment to our armed forces. That has never been more important than in the year in which we mark the 80th anniversary of D-day and many of the major battles that led to the end of the second world war. At the weekend, we marked a decade since the conclusion of UK combat operations in Afghanistan, and during this Remembrance we honour the 457 British service personnel who lost their life, the thousands who were wounded, and their families, who bore such a burden.
Ukraine
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(2 months ago)
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John Healey
We can get that into the hands of Ukrainians as soon as it is available for that purpose. I announced the new contract to produce short-range air defence missiles, the LMMs—lightweight multirole missiles—in the UK. The initial contract is for 650 and they will be in the hands of Ukrainians from the beginning of next year. We hope to step that up during the course of 2025. Where other nations are ready to make available the weaponry that Ukrainians need, the established arrangements for getting it into the hands of Ukrainians are in place. It is a question not of how, but of how quickly.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The delicious irony of the interest on Kremlin kleptocrats’ ill-gotten gains being used to fund the resistance against Russian aggression will not be lost on Members across the House. I welcome what the Defence Secretary has said in its entirety. He will know better than any of us the crucial importance of the NATO alliance machinery in assisting Ukrainian resistance. Given that one recent former American President and one current French President have both made disobliging remarks about the NATO alliance in the fairly recent past, will the Secretary of State reassure us that at least President Macron is now fully on board with the alliance and France’s important contribution to it?
John Healey
I will indeed. At no point during the two days of NATO Defence Ministers’ talks was there any indication of the sort of views that the right hon. Gentleman suggests that some in America may hold, or that President Macron might have previously expressed. Indeed, in the good bilateral meeting that I had with the French Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, it was clear that the French commitment to supporting Ukraine is as strong as the UK’s. I am glad to say that the determination of the French to work more closely with us on security and defence is equally strong.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(2 months, 1 week ago)
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John Healey
I will indeed. If the hon. Gentleman could be so kind as to send me the executive summary, rather than the full report, I will certainly take a look at it.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
Russia’s declared total military expenditure was around 4.7% of GDP in 2022. In 2023 it was 5.9% of GDP, and the forecast spending this year is up to around 7% of GDP. As the right hon. Gentleman knows very well, the public figures almost certainly do not tell the full story about Russian expenditure.
Sir Julian Lewis
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for putting that on the record. Does that frightening set of figures not show the scale of the problem and the weight of attack that Russia can bring to bear against Ukraine? How are we doing with the double demand on our resources—the need to both supply Ukraine with hardware and ammunition, and replenish our stocks of hardware and ammunition in order to fulfil our NATO security requirements?
John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman describes the double challenge of continuing to support Ukraine and replenishing our stockpiles, particularly of the weapons, ammunition and systems that we have gifted to Ukraine. The Government already have £1 billion-worth of contracts for replenishing UK stockpiles across a range of systems, and I can tell him that around 60% of the contracted production will be in the UK. That is the way we strengthen Britain’s security for the future, but also strengthen Britain’s economic growth and prosperity.
John Healey
It is the previous Government who have to answer for the impact of Brexit. As a new Government, we have set out to rebuild relations with key European allies, especially on defence and security. Although NATO remains the cornerstone of our European security, there is an important role for the European Union. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has started discussions with the European Union, as indeed has the Prime Minister, on how we can achieve a greater level of co-operation between the EU and the UK.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Ukraine
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(3 months, 2 weeks ago)
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John Healey
Yes, I do. It is a real pleasure to see my hon. Friend in his place. He brings expertise from a very wide field of foreign-policy affairs. I know that he will make a big contribution to this House, and if I made a small contribution to his election campaign, then I am doubly pleased to see him.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Secretary of State was a consistent supporter of Ukraine in opposition, so it is no surprise to hear that positive statement from him today. When he goes into battle with the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a good defence budget, will he remind her that, in the 1980s and the cold war, we regularly spent 4.5% to 5.1% of GDP on defence? Will he also assure the House that if America elects a President who does not wish to support Ukraine, the support for Ukraine by the remaining European members of NATO will intensify, not diminish?
John Healey
When, as a Government, we declare that we are ready, we show that by stepping up support for Ukraine. When we say that we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes for it to prevail, we mean it. Whatever the decisions of other countries may or may not be, I do not expect—whatever the result of the US elections—for the US to walk away from Ukraine. I said in my statement that if big countries with authoritarian rulers can redraw international boundaries by force, the sovereignty and security of all nations are left weakened.
On the question of defence spending, we are a Government who will not be having battles, as the right hon. Member put it. But I will go into the discussions that I will inevitably have with the Chancellor with a copy of our Labour manifesto, which, at the election, said that we are a Government who will spend 2.5% of GDP on defence. We will increase spending on defence, which is entirely the opposite of what happened when we had the change of Government in 2010. That was a Government who cut defence spending over those first five years by nearly 20%.
Situation in the Red Sea
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(11 months ago)
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John Healey
I, for one, appreciated the right hon. Gentleman’s leadership of his party when Putin invaded Ukraine. Like us, he has demonstrated that the UK has been and remains totally united behind Ukraine and in confronting Russian aggression. I say to the Defence Secretary that one of the important things that the Government do by organising a debate in the House is signal the importance that all sides of the House give to the support to Ukraine. It is also a chance to explain to the British public why this matters so much, and why defence of the UK starts in Ukraine. It is essential to our interests that Ukraine prevails, not Putin.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
One way in which one can stretch the terms of the debate a little further than its precise wording without infringing any rules is to remark upon the fact that in the Red sea, British naval assets are particularly important. Does the shadow Secretary of State agree that there should be no question, now or in the near or medium future, of our losing our amphibious assault ships, which are so necessary for the combined operations that one must engage in when taking on piratical opponents?
Remembrance, UK Armed Forces and Society
Debate between John Healey and Julian Lewis(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind)
Because we are commemorating the 75th anniversary of the end of world war two, I shall concentrate entirely on that conflict. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that you are quietly but rightly proud of your father’s brave record of fighting in the second world war, but as the years and decades go by, fewer and fewer people have that sort of direct personal knowledge. In the limited time available, I would like to take one brief example from each year of the second world war, to try to humanise the picture a little bit for those who do not have the sort of personal connection that I just described.
Let us take, for example, November 1939. A converted passenger liner, HMS Rawalpindi, found herself trapped by two of the largest and most deadly ships in the German navy: the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau. The captain of HMS Rawalpindi was Captain Edward Kennedy, who was 60 years old. He had come out of retirement after his service in the first world war and between the wars to re-enlist. Rather than surrender, he took on those two deadly ships, and the Rawalpindi, as was entirely predictable, went down with all flags flying and with few survivors. I am going to develop that theme, which is that many of these events are not necessarily successful, but that does not mean that they are not ultimately setting standards for inspiring their fellow service personnel, their comrades and future generations. They certainly inspired me.
We move forward from Captain Kennedy—who, incidentally, was father of the late Sir Ludovic Kennedy—to November 1940. In 1940, another converted passenger liner, HMS Jervis Bay, was escorting a convoy of nearly 40 ships. The Jervis Bay found herself standing between that convoy and the German pocket battleship the Admiral Scheer. The convoy was instructed to scatter, and Captain Fogarty Fegen, who was the commander of the Jervis Bay, steamed towards certain death and destruction and saved three quarters of the ships in that convoy. There was a time when the names “Rawalpindi” and “Jervis Bay” were known throughout the land, and it is important that we periodically remind ourselves of these inspirational examples where people sacrificed themselves doing the right thing, even though they knew they had little or no chance of survival.
On a happier note, we turn to May 1941, when HMS Bulldog is a member of a flotilla of anti-submarine escorts that bring to the surface the U-110. My late friend, the then 20-year-old Sub-Lieutenant David Balme, heads up a rowing boat of half a dozen sailors. They get on board the U-110 submarine, which has been forced to the surface. They go down, not knowing whether the submarine will blow up from scuttling charges or whether there are people waiting armed at the foot of the conning tower ladder as they climb down, unable to defend themselves. They recover the Enigma machine and the code books and thus make a vital contribution to the winning of the battle of the Atlantic.
Then we come back to the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau. It is February 1942, and half a dozen clapped-out, obsolete Swordfish biplanes take on the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau as they sail up the English channel with enormous air cover. Of those six biplanes, all six were shot down. Five of the aircrew survived the operation and four survived the war, and one of them later became my friend: Pat Kingsmill DSO. He is typical of these people who did courageous acts that were on everyone’s lips at the time, but then went on to live quiet lives—in the case of Pat Kingsmill, as an administrator in the NHS for many years.
John Healey
I suspect that, like me, the whole House is enjoying the right hon. Gentleman’s year-by-year exposition of the second world war. I wonder whether he would accept another minute as a result of my intervention.
Dr Lewis
That is extraordinarily generous, but quite typical of the right hon. Gentleman.
We come to September 1943, and three midget submarines attack the German battleship Tirpitz in a Norwegian fjord. Godfrey Place, the captain of the X7, escapes from his sinking submarine, and later becomes admiral in charge of reserves. Although he was a very important figure in the Royal Navy, he still had time to meet somebody like me—a schoolboy in Swansea, when he was there on a visit—and to autograph a book about submarine escape. These little gestures from truly great men inspire young people.
We come to the last two. The airborne assault at Arnhem in September 1944 was another disaster. But Tony Hibbert MC, who later became a friend of mine through my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), went on to work throughout many years, trying to argue for civil defence and protection for this country.
Finally, Operation Meridian—the raids on the oil refineries at Palembang in Sumatra—happened in January 1945. Norman Richardson—again, a friend of mine, who sadly passed away—was commemorated on the 75th anniversary of the end of the war in the special edition of obituaries in The Daily Telegraph. He was a telegraphist air gunner. These were people who flew on a raid in January, when people in Sumatra were not expecting it, but they did not knock out all the oil refineries so they went back a few days later, when everyone was expecting them, and they did it again. They were shot down, but three quarters of Japan’s oil refining capability was lost to the Japanese war effort.
We remember them all.