Farming and Inheritance Tax

John Hayes Excerpts

Wednesday 4th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

My right hon. Friend, who has a wonderful way with words, asks a question that many members of rural communities up and down the United Kingdom are asking themselves. In fact, when the Prime Minister did regional media a couple of weeks ago, Sean Dunderdale, the wonderful presenter on BBC Radio Lincolnshire, asked him what he had got against the people of Lincolnshire. I might ask: what have this Labour Government got against the countryside?

[Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

rose—

[Victoria Atkins]

I will give way to my right hon. Friend and neighbour and then I will make some progress.

[Sir John Hayes]

As my right hon. Friend has said, the word “betrayal” is fitting because, long before the election, pledges were given, by both the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, that these changes would not be made.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The right hon. Member is a very experienced Member of this House, and he knows that he is meant to address the Chair, not the Front Bench.

[Sir John Hayes]

Mr Speaker, I know that you, as a man of integrity and honour, will be as disappointed as I am that the Government should promise one thing and then do the exact opposite.

[Victoria Atkins]

It is a great pleasure to have the right hon. Gentleman not just as a friend but as my Lincolnshire neighbour. He has put his finger on the point—genuinely, it is the next paragraph in my speech.

Some Labour MPs must be haunted by the phrasing from the Secretary of State during the general election campaign—because I suspect that they repeated it up and down the market towns and villages in their constituencies—when he described fears that Labour would impose this family farm tax as “desperate nonsense”. Labour candidates will have repeated that line and assured the farming families in their constituencies that Labour would never treat rural communities in that way, yet within weeks the Chancellor was planning to do exactly that.

Since then, families across the country have been trying to work out how to pick up the pieces after Labour’s family farm tax bomb. They will not forget. A farmer from Derbyshire emailed me this week to say:

“Our hard work and investment as a family has been wiped away in the stroke of a pen.”

They went on to say:

“My 60 year old husband had a bleed on the brain in June and thankfully has made a full recovery but I’ve never seen him so stressed. He doesn’t know what to do”.

Hon. Members representing seats in Derbyshire may wish to reflect on how they will respond to that. A farmer from Northumberland has written to me as follows:

“We had to talk about which one of my parents are going to die first, in front of them.”

He said that Labour is

“destroying people’s lives with this policy. Many of us are worried about the mental state of many within agriculture and are concerned that it may be the final straw for some.”

In fairness, the hon. Member for Hexham (Joe Morris), who is in his place, has voiced concerns about whether his Government are listening to ordinary people about this. Will he vote for his farmers or will he toe the party line?

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[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (James Murray)]

I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:

“thanks farmers for their immense contribution to the UK economy and the nation’s food security; welcomes the Government’s commitment of £5 billion to the farming budget over the next two years, the biggest budget for sustainable food production and nature recovery in UK history; acknowledges that the Government is having to make difficult decisions to protect farms and farmers in the context of the £22 billion fiscal blackhole left by the previous Government; recognises that the Government is seeking to target Agricultural Property Relief and Business Property Relief to make them fairer whilst also fixing the public services that everyone relies on; and notes that under the changes announced in the Budget around three quarters of claims for Agricultural Property Relief, including those that also claim Business Property Relief, are expected to not pay more Inheritance Tax.”

I welcome the chance to open the debate on behalf of the Government. The Government’s commitment to farmers is steadfast. As our amendment makes clear, farmers make an immense contribution to the UK economy and to the nation’s food security. We recognise and respect the crucial contribution that farmers make to our country’s way of life.

We must also recognise, however, the state of our public services and the mess in which we found the public finances when we came into power. There was no way we could have left things as they were. Unlike the Conservatives, there was never any question of Labour ignoring the £22 billion black hole that we uncovered in the public finances. We had to bring the previous Administration’s fiscal irresponsibility to an end. We had to ensure that our country lives within its means. We had to get public services back on their feet while meeting our tough new fiscal rules, which end borrowing for day-to-day spending. That is what we, as a responsible Government, had to do.

That is why, at the autumn Budget, the Chancellor set out a number of difficult but necessary decisions on tax, welfare and spending. These decisions were to restore economic stability, fix the public finances and rebuild our public services. One of the decisions we took was to reform agricultural and business property relief. We chose to do so in a way that maintains significant tax relief for family farms, while fixing the public finances as fairly as possible.

[Sir John Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman will want to explain this, Mr Speaker. The Government have argued that only 27% of farms will be affected by this measure, while the National Farmers Union says it is 75%. Will he at least give us an indication from the Dispatch Box, perhaps supported by a note in the Library of the House, showing the modelling that contradicts the NFU’s figures?

[James Murray]

I point the right hon. Gentleman to the letter the Chancellor recently sent to the Treasury Committee, which sets out some of these figures in detail. Some of the confusion that he and other hon. Members have encountered might come from the fact that there are different sets of data. The set of data he may be referring to relates to the total value of farms across the country, but if we are thinking about inheritance tax claims, it is right to look at His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs claims data on inheritance tax. Looking simply at the value of a farm does not tell us what the inheritance tax liability for that farm may be, given that we would have to look at the ownership structure—at who owns what—and at any liabilities, and so on. That might be where some of the right hon. Gentleman’s confusion is coming from.

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[Tim Farron]

There is something in that, and I will come to that in a moment when I talk about poverty in our countryside, when it just does not look the way people in urban communities think it ought to look.

There is no doubt that family farms are under attack, but this did not start on 4 July, and I want to go through why we have ended up where we are now. The botched transition from the old farm payment scheme to the new one is the principal source of hardship among our farmers. Let us start with the fact that the environmental land management scheme—ELMS—budget saw a £350 million underspend under the last Government, and that was not an accident. It was blindingly obvious that that was going to happen. One hill farmer I spoke to just last month told me that, as a consequence of the transition, he will lose £40,000 a year in basic payment. To replace it, he will gain £14,000 under the sustainable farming incentive. By the way, it cost him £6,000 to go through a land agent in order to get in in the first place.

[Sir John Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman is making a profoundly important point. Not for the first time he is speaking as a Liberal Democrat, but also in a way that belies the fact that he is a Liberal Democrat, because he is genuinely committed to the countryside. He has made a point about family farms; the important thing about them is not only the arguments that he has already advanced, but the sense that they represent a continuum—an investment for the future. The reason this policy is so detrimental is because it impacts on that sense that farmers are investing now for generations to come.

[Tim Farron]

I am going to get to that, but the right hon. Gentleman will have to tolerate me accurately pinning blame on his side before I do so.

We were told by the last Government that they would maintain the amount of funding that we used to spend when we were in the European Union. In England, that was £2.4 billion. In one sense, and one sense only, they kind of kept that promise because it was £2.4 billion throughout that five years. However, they did not spend it, because they phased out the old scheme very rapidly, causing a great hardship, particularly to small family farms, and they brought in the new schemes far too slowly and made it very difficult for people to get into them. By the way, the people who were able to get into the new schemes were the big farmers. They were the landowners who had land agents to help them get into the schemes. So the large landowners with the bigger estates managed to get into those schemes. They are all right, broadly speaking. It is the smaller family farms—the farmers who own their own farms and the tenants—who have struggled.

It is also worth bearing in mind that there has been a little bit of inflation since 2019. The cost of running a farm has gone through the roof when it comes to feed, energy, fuel and all sorts of input costs. So the fact that we are at just £2.4 billion now, as we were five and a bit years ago, is absolute nonsense. It is important also to recognise that the grants that were available under the last Government, and now, are in reality often only available to those who have the cash flow to be able to get them in the first place.

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[Maya Ellis]

If the hon. Lady will allow me, I will come to how we can help the farmers who will be affected by the measures.

To finish my point about devolution, as an MP in an area with huge extents of rural economy, it is critical to me that devolution reflects our rural areas as much as our metropolitan ones. I look forward to seeing how the upcoming devolution White Paper addresses that challenge. Town and parish councils really understand our rural communities and can play a bigger role in local democracy.

[Sir John Hayes]

The hon. Lady is making an interesting speech, and I am grateful for it. She is right that we should import less food and use Government procurement to help with that, and she is right about the inter-generational quality of family farms. Will she acknowledge that, in delivering the kind of food security that her speech implies, we cannot have the most productive farmland eaten up by large-scale solar developments and housing? We need to protect our grade 1, 2 and 3 land for the very reason she gave, because that allows us to deliver the food security that she and I both want.

[Maya Ellis]

As the Minister pointed out, many farms will not be affected by the measure and it will not have the impact that Opposition Members are leading people to believe.

We have an opportunity to support our farmers, as I touched on in my response to the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart). I have sat down with farmers in my community and worked through the issues. They have taken their own tax advice. For example, there is a farm in my constituency that is worth around £3.6 million, so it will be liable for around £12,000 a year in inheritance tax over 10 years. However, if we are able to increase that farmer’s profits by £20,000 a year, by reducing energy prices, increasing British-supplied procurement so that 50% of public sector food comes from those farms, and providing a better health service that ensures all members of the family can be strong and well to work, that is the opportunity. Yes, we need to make our tax structures work better—that is fixing the foundations—but the real aim and prize is increasing the opportunity for farmers, so that they have the stability, investment and real sense of purpose and mission that allows them not just to survive, but to thrive.

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[Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)]

That was quicker than I expected, Madam Deputy Speaker, so thank you. It is a privilege to speak in the debate.

Nothing goes to the heart of the health, wellbeing and prosperity of a nation more than being able to feed and look after ourselves. Britain’s farmers and our farming workforce are part of the essential infrastructure that keeps this country going. I am proud to represent a constituency with such a rich food and farming heritage. Farming is in our DNA.

I pay tribute to our farmers and farming workforce. When we talk about any other industry, we recognise the skilled workers that deliver for Britain: the steelworkers, the miners, the nurses and the doctors. We should start every debate on food and farming with the same recognition for farmers. Food security begins with the incredible work of our farmers, and I thank them. We talk about people going the extra mile to look out for each other and care for our communities; farmers do that every day. This should therefore be a welcome debate on the future of farming. It should mention farming profitability and allow the hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) to talk about agri-technology and how we increase profitability. I hope that he does so shortly. Instead, what do we get? It is political opportunism from a party that should know better. I am proud to be part of the largest contingent of rural Labour MPs in Britain’s history. Labour Members were elected to protect and support our rural communities, and we will do just that. After 14 years, it is a bit rich of Conservative Members now to claim that they are backing Britain’s farmers.

[Sir John Hayes]

I entirely endorse what the hon. Gentleman, my constituency neighbour, said about recognising and celebrating the work of farmers, and indeed farm workers, but does he understand—I am sure that most Conservative Members understand this well—that assets and income are entirely different things? Farmers’ assets are our landscape. Their wealth is our common wealth—something that the Government have seemingly failed to appreciate by imposing a tax on farmers that confuses their ability to make a living with the asset that is essential for them to feed the nation.

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[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Peterborough (Andrew Pakes), who is a fellow member of the Select Committee, and the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Maya Ellis). They both, in their own way, made an important contribution to the debate by giving a bit more context to it. I will vote for the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, not because it is the most elegant piece of drafting that I have seen in 23 years in the House, but because there is nothing in it with which I really disagree. It does feel, though, like a bit of a missed opportunity to move the debate onwards. I say that not as any real criticism, because it is a response to a Government measure in the Budget, which was also a bit of a missed opportunity.

It is worth taking a minute or two to pause and reflect on how things might have been done differently. We could have gone through the process that multiple Governments and Departments have gone through over the years by starting with a Green Paper or a White Paper, and looking at the way in which inheritance tax has worked, and some of the unintended consequences that it has generated. We have all heard of the super-rich buying up land and inflating the price as some sort of tax avoidance measure. I have not met a single working farmer who wants to defend that, so there was a real opportunity to do things differently. We could have built a consensus about the proper value of land, and about some stuff that is not really being spoken about in this debate.

I speak as a former solicitor. Thankfully, I never did any executory practice, but some of those who are still in practice and with whom I am in contact tell me candidly that, because there was 100% relief on agricultural land, they did not really give a great deal of thought to the valuation that went into the application for confirmation. That is bound to have had an impact on the figures on which the Government rely. Had we done things in a proper and reflective way, we would have been able to build consensus on values and thresholds, for example, and do things very differently.

[Sir John Hayes]

I welcome the contribution of my former ministerial colleague. Had the tax been levied on exactly the people he describes—the super-rich, and non-working farmers—few would have complained, but it has been set at the wrong level. That is why I asked for detailed modelling to be made available to the House.

[Mr Carmichael]

I think I just said more or less exactly that. A debate of the sort that I am talking about would have allowed for a wider debate about farming finances. We have had 70 years of very direct Government intervention in the agricultural economy through farm subsidies. Taking a step back, critical though those farm subsidies are, their net effect has ultimately been to keep farmers poor. There is now such an enormous mismatch between the capital value of the assets being farmed and the derisory return on them. DEFRA tells us that there is a 0.5% return on capital. Farmers in my constituency tell me that a £3 million farm will give them an income of about £25,000 a year. That is pretty much in line with DEFRA’s figures.

We hear about farmers working into their 80s. It is a slightly patronising and very romantic view of doughty farmers working on into their 80s because they are seized with a sense of vocation. There absolutely is a sense of vocation among farmers, but let us not forget that a lot of them work into their 70s and 80s because they have been running businesses that have had no spare money to put into a pension so that they can look after themselves in their old age.

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[The Minister for Food Security and Rural Affairs (Daniel Zeichner)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to close this debate on the planned reforms to agricultural property relief. It has been important to hear from people on all sides of the debate and to outline the steps that the Government have taken to reach the decision on agricultural property relief. The reforms to APR are just one of the tough decisions that the Government had to take across the board on tax, welfare and spending to plug that £22 billion black hole that we inherited from the Conservatives and restore our public services.

We have had many contributions to the debate; I am sorry that I cannot respond in detail to all of them. On my side, we started with an excellent account from my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Maya Ellis). My near neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Andrew Pakes), spoke eloquently about the workforce issues; it is astonishing how rarely they are raised from the Conservative Benches, although there are some noble exceptions. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Matt Bishop) and from my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Jon Pearce), who, along with a number of others, rightly raised issues of profitability in the sector. My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) made the important point that we are not discussing the Finance Bill today.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Joe Morris) asked why it takes Labour Members to raise rural crime issues, because anyone who has been out talking to farmers will know that that is their top concern. From my hon. Friend the Member for North Northumberland (David Smith) we heard a powerful account of the value of rural life. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Louise Jones) again talked about the national health service. These are the concerns of people in rural areas.

From my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Jo White), we heard about rural crime again. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Andy MacNae) and from my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (John Slinger), who rightly outlined the Conservatives’ atrocious record over 14 years on public services. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Sam Rushworth) rightly dismissed the Opposition motion as a load of tripe—although perhaps that is tough on tripe.

A huge range of figures and analysis have been quoted in the debate so far. I have to say that part of the problem with those figures is that they seem to be about different things. Only one set of figures actually gives guidance on this issue, and that is the Treasury figures showing that about 500 estates a year will be affected. That is based on the hard data of the actual claims. It includes the impact of APR but also takes into account business property relief. I urge some Opposition Members to look at the Chancellor’s letter to the Chair of the Treasury Committee, which outlines all the details, taking into account those personal circumstances, the nil-rated inheritance allowances and the other capital allowances. It is available to all Members. Those figures, of course, are endorsed by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility.

[Sir John Hayes]

rose—

[Sir Gavin Williamson]

rose—