Police Reform

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s question; I am really concerned to hear what he is saying. The safeguarding Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley (Jess Phillips), is dealing with the issue of stalking and I know she feels very strongly about that. It might be helpful if the hon. Gentleman wrote to her, and I will certainly raise the matter with her. We may need to feed in the experiences the hon. Gentleman mentions to make sure the Metropolitan police are doing everything they need to to support victims of stalking who bravely come forward.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is always a pleasure to see the right hon. Lady—she has moved from the Back Benches to the Front Bench and is doing equally good work.

I welcome the safer streets programme and the enhancement of community policing. Can the Minister outline how there can be a UK-wide drive in addressing the money lending and drug warfare that blights all our communities throughout the United Kingdom? I am thinking of paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland and criminal gangs in the UK mainland that work together and share their criminal activities. What opportunity will there be within police reform to discuss how we can work alongside the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland and the Police Service of Northern Ireland? We can do better together.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

It is always a pleasure to be questioned by the hon. Member. When I chaired the Home Affairs Committee, we produced a report on drugs and we went to look at drug problems in Belfast and in Northern Ireland. I was struck by the particular issues there around the involvement of paramilitaries. It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman and I could have a conversation about what more we can do on that issue when we look at the broader safer streets mission.

Asylum Seekers: Hotel Accommodation

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dame Angela Eagle]

I agree. Of course, the right hon. Member for Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge (Sir Gavin Williamson) knows only too well that the same hotel was open from 21 November 2022 to 8 February 2024, and he did not complain about it in the House then.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the Minister outline the safety procedures in place to ensure that there is additional community policing in the areas around the hotels, as literally hundreds of single men are descending on small hotels and communities? That is a safety issue, and all our constituents across this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland deserve to have that reassurance.

[Dame Angela Eagle]

There is a safeguarding and safety issue going in both directions. I see reports of asylum seeker service users being attacked and injured, as well as of attacks in the other direction in a small number of cases. We always liaise with the local police and local authorities. We take an intelligence-led approach to see whether there is outside agitation or difficulty, and we are in constant contact with local services and our service providers to ensure the safety of service users and local populations.

Facial Recognition: Police Use

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a real pleasure to speak in this debate on live facial recognition technology, and I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for leading it.

I have to make a confession to the House: I am not technically minded. I can just about use my phone for text messages; I cannot do much else with it. When it comes to TikTok, Facebook, X and all those other things, I am not even sure what they all are. The fact is that my staff do all that, so anything that people see on there from me is because of them. I okay it, but they put it out.

But even if I am not technically minded, I understand the necessity to have technological advances in place and that they can also be used to benefit our police and criminal justice system. I am fully in support of advancements where there is necessity and reason for them, but the hon. Member for Brent East (Dawn Butler) was right to identify some problems with the system. So my contribution will be in favour of facial recognition technology, but also focused on the need to have a system that does not infringe on human rights.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that our concern for the wider population and individual safety has to be paramount? Allied with that are the necessary safeguards that have to be built in so that safety does not rule out and infringe on the personal liberties of people who have not done anything wrong and are unlikely to do so.

[Jim Shannon]

I agree with my hon. Friend and that point is the thrust of my contribution.

It was incredibly helpful to hear the comments of the right hon. Member for Maldon, and about how he was able to join police forces to see how live facial recognition works. I understand that was the 13th use of the technology by Essex police, with it having been deployed previously in Harlow, Southend and Clacton. Essentially, the equipment works by scanning the faces of all individuals seen by a camera and comparing them to a predetermined watchlist.

As my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) said, safety is paramount—that is the critical reason for using the technology. I speak on human rights issues all the time, as many present will know. I want to make sure that when we have technology in place, human rights are not abused or disenfranchised, and that people do not feel threatened. Innocent people should never feel threatened, of course, but there are those who have concerns. The technology has already proven itself and led to a number of arrests of people wanted for serious offences such as sexual abuse, domestic violence, aggravated burglary and shoplifting.

I will make a quick comment about the Police Service of Northern Ireland and what we are doing back home. A freedom of information request was submitted to the PSNI in late 2022, and it was concluded that live facial recognition is not currently used in Northern Ireland. I was aware of what the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Douglas McAllister) said when he intervened earlier, because Northen Ireland is in the same place on this. The FOI concluded that it is the intention of the PSNI to explore fully the potential of facial recognition technology, and that a working group was to be established in late 2022, in conjunction with PSNI stakeholders. The principle of why the technology is necessary is already in place, but we need to have the safeguards as well.

Last week I was in a Westminster Hall debate secured by the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on the importance of funding for local policing. There are clear examples across the United Kingdom that show that live facial recognition works and is extremely beneficial to the prevention of crime and for convictions. Perhaps, then, it is something that could be funded through the Barnett consequential. The Government will tell us that they have set funds aside, and we thank them for the extra money for Northern Ireland, but if it can help the police forces, that needs to be looked at.

Numerous concerns have been raised about the use of LFR by our police forces. Surveys have revealed that the British public are mainly concerned with policy infringements, surveillance, consent and the unethical use of facial recognition by the police. The hon. Member for Brent East said that clearly in her contribution, as have others. Police officers shared concerns that there could potentially be impacts on the legal and human rights of citizens.

I will always speak out on human rights abuses where they are highlighted and where infringements take place. It is good to see the Minister in her place; we all have an incredible respect for her and I look forward to her contribution. I seek to hear from her how human rights can be assured and carefully covered. The invasion of liberty and privacy are of major concern. If the technology is to be widely used across police forces, there must be assurances on public safety.

Concerns about false positives have been raised. I do not pretend to understand the technology, but others have explained that if it is turned down from 0.6 to 0.5, it offers a wider spectrum of people. That can cause such damage to people and their reputations, and reputation is everything for many people. Should this be trialled in the likes of Northern Ireland or Scotland, we must have assurances that the algorithms are correct and that they identify people correctly. I support the technology with that proviso.

Small Boat Crossings

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dame Angela Eagle]

Yes, it is advisable to try to deal with the immediate causes of the problem—organised immigration criminality—as well as bearing down on the longer-term causes, which often are about political stability in other areas of the world.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for her answers. I want to take a slightly different look. I welcome the fact that smugglers will now be treated using terrorism powers, as it is my firm belief—and the belief of this House, I think—that the continued abuse of the asylum system is tantamount to an invasion. Can the Minister assure us that those who come across the Northern Ireland border will also be subject to the terrorism provisions?

Police Accountability

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

I agree with my hon. Friend that people feel more confident if they know who their local police officers are. That builds a sense of confidence, which also helps to prevent crime.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State very much for her statement and for the confidence that she is clearly putting in her police officers. We all admire their courage and bravery in what they do. Policing is devolved in Northern Ireland, as she knows, but the ramifications of this decision could be far-reaching. Last week, I had the opportunity to speak to the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and this issue was part of our conversation.

Every police officer in Northern Ireland carries a weapon because of the high threat levels from terrorism. Their lives are on the line every day they are on the beat—that is the life of a police officer in Northern Ireland—so it is very important that we recognise the threats. Will the Home Secretary have discussions with the Chief Constable and the Policing and Finance Ministers in Northern Ireland about how we can move forward on these issues to protect our police officers? That is critical.

[Yvette Cooper]

I thank the hon. Member for the question. Interestingly, some of the accountability issues are very similar or the same for England and Wales and for Northern Ireland, but there are differences in some areas. We have looked at those and I hope that they will be looked at further as part of the ongoing work and reviews that I have raised. However, this is all fundamentally about how we make sure that we raise standards and raise confidence across the board, including for officers and communities.

Antisocial Behaviour: Leyton and Wanstead

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

I am grateful to have this opportunity to address the House on an issue of pressing concern in my constituency. Persistent and serious patterns of antisocial behaviour have a profound impact on communities. I will talk about the nature of these challenges, the admirable patience and resilience of my constituents in the face of these issues, the strong leadership demonstrated by our local council and police, and how the Government’s plans will be instrumental in turning the tide.

At the outset, I want to express my gratitude to the Minister for her attention to these matters, her willingness to engage with me last week and her offer of a further meeting to give me confidence that we can make progress on some of the difficult issues that I will outline today. I must also take this moment to commend the exceptional leadership shown by Waltham Forest council leader Grace Williams, Kam Rai at Redbridge council, Superintendent Claire McCarthy and Chief Superintendent Dan Card. They are leading the charge in keeping these issues from becoming even more severe, and I am confident that with continued support we can make real progress.

The problems I am going to raise are the manifestation of 14 years of underinvestment in the police, the decimation of our council services, a funding model that does not recognise the disproportionate population growth in east London boroughs and a criminal justice system that is feeding people back into our communities without rehabilitation.

Turning to the specific challenges, it is essential to understand that antisocial behaviour is more than a series of isolated incidents. It is often concentrated in areas of deprivation and exclusion, such as the Avenue Road estate in Leytonstone. Here, we are seeing a tragic cycle of drug misuse, criminality and social breakdown that threatens to undermine the fabric of our community. Public spaces are being vandalised, bins are being set on fire, and needles and drug litter are being left where children can find them. Users are shooting up and smoking crack in full public view. They are forcing entry to use drugs in people’s front gardens and communal hallways and stairways, where residents have to get past them. Residents are seeing drug users having sex in public spaces or lying unconscious. It is incredibly distressing, particularly for residents with young families. Public spaces, including parks and playgrounds, are becoming unsafe due to open drug use and vandalism. Despite these troubling conditions, the residents of these areas have shown incredible tolerance and dignity.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First, may I commend the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate? He referred to public parks, playgrounds and main streets as places where antisocial behaviour takes place. It is taking place in my constituency and I want to add to this debate by saying what we did. We had community police officers on the street and we also have an organisation called Street Pastors; it is very active and it involves all the churches coming together voluntarily to try to engage with those on the streets who might cause some of the antisocial behaviour. Those two objectives of more community police and more street pastors seems to have reduced the large number of antisocial behaviour issues in my constituency. I am trying to be helpful in this debate—I always try to be constructive—and hopefully that is something the hon. Gentleman will think about.

[Mr Bailey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. As he will learn, a number of schemes have aimed to tackle antisocial behaviour in the community. However, the size of the problem tends to bubble up, and I will come on to that.

Residents who speak up for their right to live in peace in their own community face serious intimidation, harassment, verbal abuse and threats. Many have told me that they fear that violence will be next. It is vital that we recognise and appreciate their tolerance. It is not only that residents are enduring such problems; the viability of the estate itself is questionable, and the council’s inability to regenerate the area contributes to their marginalisation. Their lack of opportunities further adds to the problem. Residents tolerate antisocial behaviour with remarkable respect and humility, and a sense of self-worth. However, their patience must not be mistaken for complacency or acceptance. They deserve solutions, and I hope the Minister will tell us how the Government’s approach to tackling antisocial behaviour will provide the framework we need. I am sure that this is something on which the council will continue to actively engage with residents, including at the meeting later this month, so that I can communicate back to them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dame Angela Eagle]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising this important issue and bringing her concerns—concerns that I share—to the attention of the House. We regularly monitor and review the situation in countries of origin, working closely with the Foreign Office, and our resulting country policy and information notes are published on the gov.uk website. Should we assess that the troubling new law to which my hon. Friend refers, or any other changes, fundamentally affect the justification for Georgia’s designation, we will seek to remove it from the list, using the correct parliamentary process.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In Georgia in particular, but also in other countries, there is an evidential base to prove that the persecution of Christians and ethnic minorities and other human rights abuses are taking place. It is also important that LGBT rights issues are engaged with. Has the Minister had the opportunity to address those issues directly with Georgia’s Government?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I call Jim Shannon—or are you not standing?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am always standing, Mr Speaker. What efforts have been taken in schools to show the opportunities available in the police force, to enhance career opportunities for young people?

[Mr Speaker]

I’ll be watching you!

Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill

Jim Shannon Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 14th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

As my hon. Friend will know, the prevention of future deaths report from the London bridge and Borough market inquests called for clarity of responsibility for venue operators regarding protective security. Addressing that point is one reason that we are bringing forward this legislation. My hon. Friend is also right that, in practice, security and safety measures require people to work together and require partnerships among them, the venue, local councils and others. It is not for this legislation to set out the decisions for insurance companies; its whole purpose is to make venues safer and more resilient to the kinds of pressures and attacks they might face.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

rose—

[Yvette Cooper]

I said I would give way to the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). I will then come to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).

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[Yvette Cooper]

The right hon. Member makes an important point and I thank him for his long-standing interest in the issue. Those responsible for premises and events in the enhanced tier will be required to provide the regulator with a document that sets out all the public protection measures and procedures they have, and how they expect those processes to reduce their vulnerability and risk of harm from terrorism. The first category is about monitoring for risks and indicators. That might include monitoring prevention measures—for example, if there has been some kind of security breach a week before or some days before—or assessing what the risks might be. The third measure is about physical safety, which might include the physical arrangements that can prevent somebody from being able to take action in advance of a major event to create that risk and threat. There are ways of having those checks in place.

The Bill ensures that there is a new regulator to oversee compliance through a new function of the Security Industry Authority. We expect the SIA’s primary role to be supporting and advising businesses to implement the legislation’s requirements. Even though the SIA will have a suite of powers and sanctions, including the power to issue fines for non-compliance or to shut down events in the enhanced tier, in fact those sanctions are primarily civil. I reassure the House that those responsible for premises and events will be given time to understand and that the SIA’s approach will be to support venues to adopt the new measures. A range of factors will be taken into account so that penalties will be used only to address the most serious or repeated failings.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Secretary of State for her contribution and for setting the scene so well. We will support the Government’s legislation because it is the right thing to do. The Secretary of State knows very well that we in Northern Ireland have suffered a campaign lasting 30-plus years from the IRA, where shopkeepers and those involved in businesses took steps against firebombs, against people bombing houses and against car bombs, which resulted in a large loss of life. Has there been the opportunity to consider what was done in Northern Ireland in a voluntary capacity to combat such things? I am ever mindful that it was perhaps not necessary to have legislation that handed out fines.

Everyone wants to do the right thing and if that is the case, it is about how we encourage people to do that. Lessons can be learned from back home. I will speak later and highlight some of those things, but I think it is important that we take all the knowledge from everywhere in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Yvette Cooper]

The hon. Member is right that there has been considerable work by many venues and premises in Northern Ireland to respond to the kinds of threats and risks that, sadly, communities have faced through the years. He may also be interested to know that in Manchester a voluntary version of Martyn’s law was introduced after the appalling Manchester Arena attack; training and support were provided for venues and many businesses were keen to sign up. That has been very well supported and the view in Manchester is that it has been hugely successful.

The experience of the hon. Member for Strangford in Northern Ireland and the experience in Manchester is that, too often, there has been a tragic reason as to why organisations have responded in that way. We need to make sure those same lessons are learned right across the country. That is why we are setting out this comprehensive legislation, so we are not in a situation where the biggest venues only respond when something terrible happens—when it is too late and lives have been lost.

We are committed to working extensively with the business community during the passage and roll-out of the Bill. As well as the ongoing programme of direct engagement, we have also updated ProtectUK to make it easier for businesses and others to navigate and understand the supporting information on the Bill. We are acutely conscious in introducing this legislation of the need to get the proper balance and detail right. That is why, as hon. and right hon. Members will know, the Bill’s proposals have been subject to extensive development, and the draft version of the legislation was subject to pre-legislative scrutiny under the previous Government.

Most crucially, we have raised the threshold for being in scope from 100 to 200 individuals. We recognise the need for a location-specific approach because the procedures in one place may not apply to another. We have also ensured that in both tiers appropriate procedures and measures are required only

“so far as is reasonably practicable”.

Those words are crucial to recognising the importance of protecting life and our way of life.

With Figen here, we always keep in our minds that terrible day in Manchester seven and a half years ago. The youngest victim was an eight-year-old girl, Saffie-Rose Roussos. Her headteacher asked the question afterwards:

“How do you tell 276 children that their friend has been murdered”?

That is a question we all ask: how can we explain how anyone could have targeted the event that day, with young children enjoying their love of music and dancing? But that is the point. When terrorists want to cause maximum damage—when they want to destroy our way of life—of course they seek out crowds, but they also seek out innocence, happiness and joy. That is why our task is not just to take measures to keep people safe but to work tirelessly to ensure that people can get on and enjoy their lives, and that we never let terrorists, extremists and criminals win.

Let me finish by quoting Figen. She said:

“It’s time to get this done.”

I could not put it better. I commend the Bill to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I thank the Secretary of State for her introduction and for setting the scene so well with passion, delivery and understanding. As I said earlier, there is no one in the Chamber who could oppose the Bill. There is the question of whether it goes far enough—Members have indicated some issues may need to be addressed further down the line—but that is for the future. I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their speeches. Martyn’s law is aptly named after one of those who tragically died in the carnage of the attack on children and young people in the Manchester bombing. I do not think there is anyone who has not shed a tear over that. It lingers long.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak about this issue. As many Members will know, the people of Northern Ireland have an unfortunate history of terrorism which greatly influenced the way in which we lived our lives for many years, as we heard from the hon. Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister). Those are scars that we live with and will live with for all our days, for they will never go away. We used to check under our cars. I served as a part-time soldier for some 14 and a half years, and checkpoints manned by soldiers or officers in the Royal Ulster Constabulary were the norm as they attempted to protect life and prevent acts of terror. We became conditioned to ensuring that at any event, people had half an eye on the possibility of terrorist attacks.

I am pleased to see the Minister in his place, because he and I have been friends in the House for a long time, and I know that he brings to the House personal knowledge based on his own gallant service. We appreciate it very much, and I am putting that on the record for Hansard.

I want to give a couple of examples of what was referred to by the hon. Member for North Antrim. One is the indiscriminate shooting at a church hall in Darkley, during which IRA gunmen murdered three elders welcoming their 70-strong congregation of men, women and children with no affiliation to any organisations, and, indeed, with no other qualification other than to be Protestant. The gunmen came into the hall shooting, and stopped only when, after the pastor cried out, the gun jammed; and the gunman ran out to continue spraying the church with bullets from the outside with his semi-automatic rifle. The question that I pose here tonight is this: what will be done to ensure that churches—and schools, which the hon. Member also mentioned—receive the protection that they need?

After the atrocity of the Darkley murders, every church that I knew of in Northern Ireland ensured that there were men at the door and an evacuation plan for crèches and children’s church facilities in particular. Indeed, child protection training took place automatically after that event of many years ago, and I know that in that church, and in other faith buildings, evacuation procedures are standard to this day. Those who volunteer in the crèches are given routes to send children to freedom should something go wrong. This is our lived experience in Northern Ireland, owing to the evil men who pushed an evil agenda and destroyed the innocence of a nation—but not its spirit.

No one wants these horrors to be a reality, but in Northern Ireland they have been. Our restaurants have a history of being targeted. In the La Mon hotel, which used to be in my constituency, a napalm-type bomb not only took the lives of 12 members of the Collie Club who were having dinner there, but horrifically burned and injured a further 30 people. One of them was Billy McDowell, who died about four weeks ago. Since that time, our hotels have had procedures in place to deal with that dreaded warning phone call.

We have had horrific experiences. We do not like to boast about them, and I am not boasting now. We did things voluntarily because they were the right things to do, and I think that the Bill brings us closer to doing the same things here. The people of Northern Ireland dealt with these horrors and the evil nature that drives them. The police force was so specialised that former RUC officers still train police forces around the world, including in the Balkans, Africa, and countries in the middle and far east. Our expertise is one that I wish with all my heart we did not possess, but it was once rooted so deeply in our minds that someone leaving a shopping bag behind was a cause for the evacuation of shopping centres. That is why I believe that although we cannot live in a lockdown mode, such basic considerations must be standard. The Police Service of Northern Ireland have expertise, knowledge and skills that are transferable, and they should and must be part of the Bill.

I hope that the Minister, who I know will respond to the debate in a positive and helpful fashion because he always does, will tell us the things that we need to hear about the Bill, and about the goals for which the Government are aiming. Let me say this to him, very gently. The police must always be the last word in security. It cannot be individuals and it cannot be organisations; it must always be the police. We must ensure that young kids like my granddaughters, who have no experience of terrorism—and that is something for which I thank God—are kept safe by those who understand that no matter how unlikely it is for an act of terrorism to be perpetrated against kids at a concert, such as those in Manchester, it is a possibility. I have six grandchildren. The two eldest girls, Katie and Mia, do not know enough to view bags suspiciously, or to ask, “Is there something unusual about that?” I know that others have said this, and I say it now very respectfully. Not everyone sees the dangers; not everyone sees what is suspicious. Children are innocent, as they should be, and they should be able to have innocent lives.

We need to find a better way forward. The people in charge of that facility in Manchester need to be aware, for the sake of the children. That is second nature in Northern Ireland, but it must also be in the mindset of people throughout the United Kingdom, which is why I support the reasonable application of the obligations that we are discussing. I have no desire to raise the prices of tickets for events, meals in a large restaurant or beds in a resort and spa, but the basic assumption that such things could happen, and answering the basic questions about what we can we do if it does and who will know what to do, are the bare minimum at this stage.

Let me ask the Minister a few questions. They are intended, as always, to be constructive, and to help the conversation and the building of this legislation. What help and support will be offered to businesses to help them come to terms with what is reasonably expected, and what further support will there be in respect of a cost-effective way of meeting obligations? That, by the way, applies equally to churches and schools. We need to ensure that businesses are not deterred from expanding because they cannot meet costs. Will the Minister outline how we can be a part of the conversation about the introduction of procedures to keep people safe?

Terror is something that I wish was a thing of the past, but the shooting in Omagh in February 2023 of Detective Chief Inspector John Caldwell, who was coaching at his own son’s weekly football game, and the atrocity in Southport this summer when three beautiful young children were brutally murdered, are a heartbreaking reminder that evil people are still at work, and we need to do all that we can to stay safe and keep others safe with us. Tonight, through this potential legislation, we are taking a step in the right direction, which I trust will save lives and stop terror attacks.

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[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, a Greater Manchester MP, for making that important point. It is worth saying in response that the feedback from businesses in the Greater Manchester area has been incredibly positive. While we are mindful of the potential burdens on business, we have consulted and worked closely with the sector and we will continue to listen carefully to the concerns it may wish to raise.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dan Jarvis]

I am going to make a bit of progress. I will come to the hon. Gentleman in a moment, but I am conscious that time is against me and that Madam Deputy Speaker is looking intently at me.

The right hon. Member for Witham made a number of important points, not least that the primary role of the Security Industry Authority will be to provide advice, guidance and support to those responsible, to enable them to meet their obligations. The Bill also gives the SIA the necessary enforcement and investigation powers. These are modelled on those of other similar inspection regimes, which will allow an inspector to enter premises, interview staff, gather the information they need and assess the level of compliance. In the most serious or persistent of instances, criminal sanctions will be available.

The right hon. Lady also asked for an update on our work to support the victims of terrorism, and she rightly referenced the good work of Travis Frain, whom I also have had the privilege of meeting to discuss important issues, including that of memorialisation. The right hon. Lady raised a number of important points, and I will commit to write to her specifically on this point but also on the other points that she raised. She should be assured, however, as should the whole House, of this Government’s commitment to supporting the victims of terrorism.

My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Rand), another Greater Manchester MP, spoke powerfully about the impact of the Manchester attack. I fully agree with everything he said, as I did with the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton North East (Kirith Entwistle). The hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) spoke movingly about Martyn Hett and eloquently paid tribute to the solidarity, resilience and resolve of the people of Greater Manchester. I can also assure her, and the House, that dedicated, easy-to-follow guidance and support will be provided for duty holders to ensure that those in scope have the required information on what to do and how best to do it. This will include local authorities and volunteers, as raised by the hon. Members for Solihull West and Shirley (Dr Shastri-Hurst) and for North Cornwall (Ben Maguire) respectively.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) asked about planning processes, and I have made a particular note of his point about bollards. I can assure him that we will consider, with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and planning leads in the devolved Governments, how security considerations are referenced in and achieved through the planning regimes and guidance, in the light of the Bill’s provisions.

The hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley made a number of important, pertinent points. He rightly said that the protection and safety of the public is paramount, but he raised a number of points around the impact on smaller premises and the changing nature of the threat. I can give him the assurances that he sought. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Sonia Kumar) made a number of useful points, not least about seeking to strike the right balance between security and the impact on business.

The hon. Member for North Cornwall rightly reflected his own constituency experience and spoke about rural venues, smaller premises and penalties. I am also grateful to him for mentioning Brendan Cox. It is absolutely right to reference the significant contribution that Brendan Cox has made to this process. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) made a really important point about Edinburgh. It is a great city that knows how to host events, and I am particularly pleased to hear that the city welcomes this legislation. Of course, we will want to work closely with colleagues in Scotland and elsewhere to ensure the successful implementation of this legislation.

The hon. Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) made a number of important points, not least on ensuring that we work together to defeat terrorism. He also raised important points about smaller premises and the SIA. I am happy to discuss those points with him further, but I can say to him that the enhanced duty requirements will not apply to premises used for childcare or for primary, secondary and further education. My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer) also mentioned Travis Frain, and I am grateful to him for doing so. I join him in paying tribute to Travis’s work. He has been an inspirational campaigner and we will want to continue to work closely with him in the future.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), as always, drew very sensibly on his experience of Northern Ireland from a terrorism perspective. His contribution is always appreciated. He raised a number of specific points and I will endeavour to come back to him by letter in order to give him clarity.

[Jim Shannon]

The Minister is always very kind and I knew he would say yes to me eventually. He has not commented yet on churches. Could he give us some idea of what his thoughts are there? I mentioned in my contribution the fact that all churches right across Northern Ireland took precautions after the Darkley hall massacre. Every person needs to be safety conscious, and every person in church took that role upon themselves.

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for mentioning churches. All places of worship will be included in the standard tier. We recognise their unique and hugely important contribution, and we have looked very closely at how we can ensure that this legislation will provide them with appropriate protections. Again, I am happy to discuss this further, should the hon. Gentleman wish to do so.

The Bill’s provisions have been very carefully designed to strike the right balance between public protection and avoiding undue burdens on premises and events. These simple, common-sense steps will bolster the UK’s preparedness for and protection from terrorism.

I finish by reiterating the thanks of the whole House to Figen Murray. To have gone through what she has and still work so tirelessly for change is both humbling and inspiring. Figen has said that it is time to get this done, and she is right.

Security is the foundation upon which everything else is built, and nothing matters more to this Government. I commend this Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill: Programme

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 19 November 2024.

(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Anna Turley.)

Question agreed to.

Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill: Money

King’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill, it is expedient to authorise:

(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:

(a) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State, and

(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under or by virtue of any other Act out of money so provided, and

(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Anna Turley.)

Question agreed to.

Financial Fraud and Economic Crime

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Westminster Hall

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

Order. Apparently, there is an acoustic problem for everybody sitting in the front row. Could the hon. Gentleman move to the back as the mics are not working?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Always best to be a Back Bencher, Ms Vaz!

[Mr Charters]

May I continue, Ms Vaz?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship for the second time today, Ms Vaz.

I thank the hon. Member for York Outer (Mr Charters) for setting the scene so well. One of the great things about debates with new Members is that they bring their expertise, knowledge and interests in various subject matters to our debates, which enriches the House greatly. I very much look forward to contributions from other hon. Members when the time comes.

I am pleased to see the Minister in his place. He and I have been friends a long time while on the Opposition side of the Chamber, as it was. I am pleased to see him in a place that is a well-deserved honour for him. I am also pleased to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hamble Valley (Paul Holmes), in his place.

I am pleased to speak in this debate in the short time that we have. I have heard of countless economic crime cases, including scams and frauds. Constituents must be aware of the dangers, so it is vital to give some background in discussion of such matters. When I speak, I always bring in a Northern Ireland perspective, and I wish that I could tell the hon. Member for York Outer that things in Northern Ireland are better, but they are not. When he hears the figures, he will probably be shocked at just how bad they are.

Last year, according to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, £23.1 million was lost to fraud over 13 months in Northern Ireland. Between December 2022 and January 2024, there were some 5,412 reports of fraud, with lost sums ranging from £5,000 up to almost—unfortunately—£250,000. I just cannot comprehend how that can happen, but it happened. Those sums were taken by criminals from people’s bank accounts. The figures give an idea of where the scams are and where we need to focus. In 2023 alone, there were 3,400 cases of economic fraud. In many such cases, frauds and scams are committed at a distance through social media, online websites, phone calls and text messages.

I will probably age myself by saying this, but I remember getting a message from a general in Nigeria. My goodness! Right away, my hackles were up, because I do not know any generals in Nigeria. When I was told that I had won $100,000 or whatever it was, I knew I could not have done, because I did not enter any competition, and I had no friends or relatives out there. It was clearly a scam, but they claimed that if I sent them my bank details, they would forward an astronomically large amount of money to me. The point I am making is that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably isn’t true. Someone turns up and says, “You have won this amount of money, just send me your bank details and we will transfer the money to you.” I am not smarter than anyone else—I do not profess to be and am not—but whenever someone comes along with something that is just that good, it cannot be good, so beware.

I want to give the example of an elderly lady who came to see me—I speak for the elderly and the vulnerable as my focus for the short time I have. Just last week, in my office I dealt with an issue where a lady clicked a link on Facebook to lodge money in an online pot to gain interest over a period of time. Her details were given and the £276 immediately taken from her account. The dangers of social media are broad enough, and online fraud and scamming seem to be at a peak. Unfortunately, I see that regularly in my office. We advised her immediately to put a block on her card and to contact the local PSNI to make a report. But she is only one example, unfortunately, of what so many people face on a daily basis, every week in my constituency.

I am just looking up something from Danske Bank, which I belong to. It sends such things regularly, as a wee warning perhaps, and a caution:

“We want to remind you that we are all at risk of fraud, even if you are scam savvy. Bank impersonation scams are on the rise”

—which the hon. Member for York Outer referred to—

“but remember, we will never call you to ask for log-on details, PIN numbers or passcodes, including those we send by text.”

My bank sends that to me every month or every six weeks. If banks did that as a reminder to people to keep it fresh in their minds, it would be very helpful.

The UK economic crime team is responsible for leading the industry’s fight against economic crime, but more needs to be done to support those who are not perhaps tech-savvy, which I profess that I am not: I sometimes do not understand the dangers that are out there. The online fraud steering group has numerous aims in tackling economic crime, including making the UK look like the least attractive place to commit such crimes, but they still happen with a regularity that tells us that that is not the case. Whether internally in the UK, or internationally where foreign actors interfere, we need to ensure that our constituents are protected and, most importantly, aware.

The PSNI back home in Northern Ireland has a crime prevention officer who specifically visits elderly and vulnerable people, including groups who meet every week. They go and talk to them and give them information. I would suggest that that could be done with greater regularity to remind people, because people do need to be reminded on a regular basis.

I will finish now because I am conscious that others want to speak. In terms of money laundering, we have seen terrible examples in Northern Ireland where, to be fair, the PSNI in conjunction with other police forces across the United Kingdom and further afield have been able to get on top of it, but it still happens. There are scams and fraud, so there is more work to be done. I look to the Minister with great respect. I know he will come back with the answers that will perhaps encourage us and give us some hope. I look to him for guidance on his updated plans to make our economic system run smoothly—it has to—and ensure that across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland we have a good structure for dealing with the issues and also the means to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Coghlan (Dorking and Horley) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz, in this brilliant and necessary debate. I commend the hon. Member for York Outer (Mr Charters) for securing this debate on financial fraud and economic crime and for his professional expertise in this area. I should declare an interest: I spent 11 years working in financial services and also worked in the Foreign Office on counter-terrorism, so I know how vital this debate is.

The hon. Member for York Outer made really interesting points in his seven proposals, particularly on the link between tackling fraud and economic growth and his call for a national anti-fraud centre based on the Australian model. The Liberal Democrats called for an online crime agency in our manifesto, so it is something we would be interested in supporting.

We need a dedicated body to tackle online crimes such as personal fraud; our police forces are overwhelmed. Local forces lack the specialist skills required to combat the complexity of modern online crime. Although the National Crime Agency focuses on the most serious offences, we need an agency specifically equipped to deal with online fraud.

[Jim Shannon]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for making that reference to the NCA. I understand that just last week the NCA issued its first unexplained wealth order in Northern Ireland against a man suspected of involvement in serious organised crime. If anyone is living above their means, there should be questions about where the money is coming from. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that there perhaps needs to be more emphasis on that as well?

[Chris Coghlan]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I agree that there should be more emphasis on that area. I also thought that the hon. Member for York Outer made a really interesting point about the lack of FCA regulation of the Post Office, and I agree that that appears to be a gap in our existing regulatory framework.

We heard some really moving personal accounts about the cost of these online scams in the speech made by the hon. Member for Southend West and Leigh (David Burton-Sampson). We are also calling for the naming and shaming of the banks that have the worst records on preventing fraud and reimbursing victims. They should be held accountable. Financial institutions have a duty to protect their customers and we need to call them out when they do not.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) talked about the power of social media scams, and we are also calling for a public awareness campaign. We need to empower everyone to spot, avoid and report fraud and scams. But let me be clear: the onus should not be on individuals to prevent fraud. Victims should never be blamed for falling prey to sophisticated scams. This issue is about building a society that protects citizens and not one that burdens them with responsibilities that should lie with institutions.

As we have heard, the numbers involved are staggering, both in terms of the billions of pounds that have been lost to fraud and the sheer volume of crime that is now online. Despite those facts, however, the previous Government’s response was lacklustre. I was moved by the hon. Member for York Outer’s point that 40% of crime is fraud, including online fraud, yet only 1% of police resources is dedicated to tackling fraud. The previous Government treated fraud with such little seriousness that they did not include it in crime statistics. Will the Minister commit to including fraud in crime statistics to demonstrate the new Government’s seriousness about this issue?

The Government must also recognise that economic crime poses a significant threat to our democracy. For too long, the previous Government allowed oligarchs to treat the UK as their personal playground, so that they could funnel dirty money into our economy and undermine our values. The Liberal Democrats are calling on the Government to begin seizing frozen Russian assets and to use the proceeds to support Ukraine; to close loopholes in economic crime legislation, which allow associates of authoritarian regimes, such as Putin’s cronies, to funnel corrupt funds into our country; and to properly resource the NCA to ensure that it has the tools to tackle complex financial crimes. We are also calling for an audit of UK-based assets owned by officials from countries with troubling human rights records, such as China and Iran, to ensure that we are not enabling regimes that abuse their own citizens.

As a former counter-terrorism officer, I know how important cross-border co-operation is. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Mrs Brackenridge) really brought out the importance of such co-operation when she made the point that the people conducting these scams are not necessarily all in the same geographical location.

I also know the damage that Brexit caused to our cross-border co-operation on serious and online crime. Will the Minister commit to improving co-operation with our European allies and with other countries more widely on financial fraud and economic crime?

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the debate. It was a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair for this debate, Ms Vaz, and I again thank the hon. Member for York Outer for securing it.

Rural Depopulation

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz, for what I believe is the first time during this Session. I am sure it will be the first of many, and I look forward to working alongside you.

It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge). She is here in Westminster Hall almost as much as I am! I look forward to many more contributions from her.

I say to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton)—that is my Northern Ireland pronunciation of the name of his constituency; I hope it was somewhere near to what it really should be—that it is a real pleasure to see him in this debate, and I am here to make a contribution to support him.

As one who is thankful to live in a rural community and to feel part of it, I speak with some personal knowledge. I come over here on a Monday, and I leave on a Thursday. London will never be my home, because there is too much concrete. I need green fields, grass and fresh air. That is just a personal opinion; I have nothing against the people of London. I am sure they are very happy here, but I know I certainly could not be here any longer than I have to be. But that is by the way.

The Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs—I always give a Northern Ireland perspective to these things—publishes an annual “Key Rural Issues” publication. According to the 2023 edition, 36% of Northern Ireland’s population lived in a rural area in 2020. The population of rural areas grew by 20% between 2001 and 2020, while the population of urban areas grew by 7%. Perhaps what we are seeing in Northern Ireland is a reverse of what the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar referred to; more people seem to be moving to rural areas for whatever reason.

I can see this happening. Although I still see the people I went to school with and their children in Kircubbin and Greyabbey, the two nearest villages to my home, I also see many, many new faces on my constituency door knocks throughout the year. I do not just knock doors at the election; I will be doing it next week in recess, and I did it the whole month of August. I do it because it is a good way to hear what constituents are saying. In August, when everybody goes out, it was also a good way for people to know I was back again after the 4 July election. It shows an interest. It is how we know what people want, so that is why I do it.

I also see that the footprint has expanded. That is due not simply to children having children and moving to their own places, but to historical family connections no longer being in place. In my opinion, that adds to the character and abilities in the community.

I will quickly refer to the community and what it means to me and the people I live alongside. I have lived in the Ards peninsula since I was four, over 65 years ago—now hon. Members know my age—and yet there are those who still consider me, and label me, a blow-in. How many times have we rural people heard that? There is a joke that if someone’s great-grandparents are not buried in Ballywalter graveyard, they are a blow-in. That would take them back before their birth, but that is by the way. That has not stopped me from being an integral part of the local community and from being proud to be known as the wee boy from Ballywalter.

This is a message that people need to understand: although someone may not be born in a rural community, they will be made a part of that community if they understand and embrace all that that entails. That means farmers ploughing or spraying fields at 1.30 am, because that is the best time—perhaps the only time—they can do so. It means being delayed behind a tractor or by a farmer moving cattle across the road. It means being woken up by the sound of a bird scarer, which is how the farmer protects his field. Those are the things of the countryside, but we embrace them. They are parts of daily life for people who move to a home in the country.

By the same token, living in a rural community means a farmer may drop off a bag of groceries when someone is snowed in. It means that when someone has a new baby, they will receive at least 10 ready-made meals from the local community, and possibly many more. That is the community that I live in. It is probably the community we all live in—I know that it is certainly the community that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) lives in. Living in a rural community means that if someone is delayed in getting to the school, people will wait with their child. It means that people are part of that community. For me, community means all those things. If someone new comes in, welcome them; if someone needs help, reach out.

We need to do better at some things if we are to encourage more people to take up rural living and to bring their skills and qualities to rural life. We need to ensure that there is adequate broadband for home working and small businesses. We have to move with the times: when people want to work from home, and have businesses in their homes, we need to encourage them and make that happen. We need to ensure that there are places in small rural schools. We need to enhance public transport connectivity.

We also need to encourage, by any means, our banks to realise that their face-to-face obligations to rural customers come first. I do not think that there are any hon. Members who have not spoken about bank closures. It sickens me that when banks make more money than they did the year before, they close branches in rural areas. I am not a socialist, but I cannot comprehend how banks can close branches in rural areas and then produce more dividends for the chief executives. That is seriously morally wrong. If any banks are listening, please note my words, because they are not just my words—they are the words of many others.

We need to ensure that rural medical practices have adequate facilities for physios, nutritionists, sexual health clinicians and dentists, so there is adequate provision for rural communities. Those are all things that people who come to live in the countryside wish to have.

A lot of people want to speak, so I will finish with this. Living in a rural community offers so much and, with sensible planning and forethought, there is space for more. There is nothing quite like country life. I say that not just because I am a shooting man, but because I just love the country. We need to protect our country life while encouraging people to reap the health benefits of living in the country, such as fresher, cleaner air. My goodness, who could say there is anything wrong with that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Seema Malhotra]

I have to make my remarks, and the right hon. Member has spoken. I will come back if I have time.

On the vision of developing more sustainable alternatives to labour market issues, I am sure that we are all keen to work together. There is no other way. That is why I have asked my officials to work closely with Seafish, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and across Government to address the issues facing the sector and our rural communities, and to make sure we are building together a more sustainable workforce and community.

[Jim Shannon]

I welcome the Minister to her position. I apologise for not doing so earlier; I wish her well in her job. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) and I have pursued the issue of visas for fishermen across the sea—in Northern Ireland, my villages of Portavogie, Kilkeel and Ardglass are examples —as has the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire (Pete Wishart). Along the line, we have always had verbal commitments, but we have never seen action to make visas more acceptable for skilled workers so that small fishing villages such as Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeel can survive. The Minister might wish to continue pursuing that, if it is agreeable.

[Seema Malhotra]

I am happy to meet the hon. Gentleman, who is a long-standing campaigner on these issues. I make the point that it is important that we work closely across Westminster and with our devolved Administrations. This is part of an important reset, and it is important that we look at how we tackle these challenges together. Many of the issues that have been raised are matters for the Scottish Government and for local authorities in Scotland, but it is important that we look at how we work together across Westminster and with the Scottish Government to ensure that we have shared projects that are a success.