Military Covenant

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I beg to move,

That this House acknowledges the service and sacrifice of the United Kingdom’s armed forces and veterans and supports the full implementation of the military covenant in each region of the United Kingdom.

It is an honour to lead off in this debate on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House. At the outset, I want to pay tribute to all our service personnel from across the United Kingdom, and indeed from other countries, who serve in our armed forces. I also pay tribute to the veterans who have served this country with great distinction. In Northern Ireland, we hold our armed forces in very high esteem, and we have seen in recent years—during the time of the troubles—how the armed forces were on the front line, standing in the gap between the general public and those whose objective was to create mayhem and undermine the democratic process.

We have also seen our armed forces in action in recent years in Iraq and Afghanistan. We understand the sacrifice that they make, and the sacrifices made by their families—by those left behind at home, the husbands, wives and children of members of our armed forces. That is important in the context of this debate, because the military covenant should not just be about the personnel who serve or have served: it includes their families.

Like all right hon. and hon. Members, I stood beside the war memorial in Lisburn in my constituency on 11 November as we honoured the dead of two world wars and of the conflicts that have occurred since the second world war. I watched as my constituent Ian Walker, his wife Rhoda and their sons, Kyle and Ross, laid a wreath in memory of Corporal Stephen Walker, who served with 40 Commando in Afghanistan and was killed in action in May 2010. Although Stephen had been living in Scotland with his family, he was from Lisburn and our community saluted his memory. We stood with Ian and his family as they remembered their dear loved one, and this was repeated in many places across the United Kingdom.

It was good to see that representatives of the Irish Government were present at some of the war memorials in Northern Ireland to mark the fact that many people from the Irish Republic served in the British Army during the great war in particular, which of course occurred before the Republic of Ireland left the United Kingdom. Indeed, some have served since then, and even today we have people from the Republic of Ireland in the modern British Army and the other services.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman share my hope that the leadership that has been shown by the Irish Government on remembrance may defuse some of the tensions in Northern Ireland around the implementation of the military covenant, which is still—sadly—a politicised issue?

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Lady for that point and I will come on to that subject in the course of my remarks.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the significant and beneficial effects of recent days has been the issue he has just raised? Many people in the Irish Republic, who for several generations were afraid to recognise, or were unaware of, the contribution made by many people in the Irish Republic to the armed forces, both here in the United Kingdom and in the Republic, in the fight against fascist Germany, are now beginning to recognise, realise and appreciate that?

[Mr Donaldson]

I concur entirely with my hon. Friend. I recently had the great honour of being appointed to the advisory board that is preparing for 2014 to 2018 and the United Kingdom’s commemorations of the great war. I have been giving some thought to how we might commemorate that period in Northern Ireland. It is important that people in the Irish Republic, and the Government of the Irish Republic, recognise the massive contribution made by thousands of Irish men, from the counties that now form the Irish Republic, who served in the British Army. Many served with great distinction, winning Victoria Crosses and other meritorious awards for their courage and bravery. For example, one thinks of Captain Redmond—the brother of the then leader of the Irish Nationalist party in this House, John Redmond—who served with distinction and sadly lost his life in the service of the Crown. Today, there are others from the Republic of Ireland who step up to the mark and join the Royal Irish Regiment, the Irish Guards and other units in the Army, and the other elements of the armed forces. They make a contribution that we value. It is good to see attitudes changing in the Republic of Ireland towards those who have served and who continue to serve in our armed forces.

It would be remiss not to mention the name of Corporal Channing Day, to whom the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office referred in his closing remarks in the previous debate. She was a remarkable young woman, 25-years-old and serving with 3 Medical Regiment. The medics are often overlooked. Their courage and bravery in the face of extremely dangerous circumstances, seeking to save lives and rescue those who find themselves wounded as a result of combat, is often overlooked. I pay tribute to Corporal Day. I can do no better than repeat the comments of her sister Lauren at Channing’s funeral:

“Channing loved the Army. If there was one thing she knew growing up, it was that she wanted to be a soldier, proven by the way she would march around the living room and she never missed cadets. She loved what she did and we are so proud of her. Channing grew up into the bravest, beautiful, determined woman, she has done more in her 25 years than most women her age and we are so very proud of everything she has achieved.”

Today, we pay tribute to the men and women of our armed forces across the United Kingdom who daily place themselves in the line of fire not only for this nation, but for others across the world who need their protection.

I want to also pay tribute not just to our regular armed forces, but to the reserve forces. In Northern Ireland, we are proud of the contribution that our reserve forces make to all elements of the armed forces in the United Kingdom. We are proud that despite the fact that Northern Ireland makes up approximately 3% of the UK population, we regularly provide more than 20% of the reserve forces on operational deployment. That is wonderful testimony to the men and women who step out of their day-to-day work, leave their families behind and serve the country overseas, often in very dangerous circumstances. In paying tribute to the reserve forces in Northern Ireland, I want to make particular mention of the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association, which is especially active in Northern Ireland. Throughout the years of the troubles, it ensured that recruitment to the reserves continued even in some areas that might surprise hon. Members. That persists to this day. Most, if not all, of the reserve units in Northern Ireland are extremely well recruited. I hope that the Minister will have the opportunity—I know it is his intention—to visit some of those units in Northern Ireland. He will receive a very warm welcome.

What is the purpose of this debate? I want briefly to set out some context. A recent report published by the World Health Organisation on post-traumatic stress disorder found that Northern Ireland had a higher incidence of PTSD and trauma-related illnesses than any other conflict-related country in the world. That included places such as Lebanon and Israel. It was remarkable that the study found that nearly 40% of people in Northern Ireland had been involved in some kind of conflict-related traumatic incident. The survey estimated that violence had been a distinctive cause of mental health problems for about 18,000 people in Northern Ireland. Against that backdrop, the health and social care services in Northern Ireland seek to provide a service to members of our armed forces and veterans from Northern Ireland. There is already a huge demand on these services from across Northern Ireland as a result of trauma-related illnesses arising from the conflict.

Before I remark on the deficiencies in the service, I want to acknowledge that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, within the legislative constraints, has made efforts to ensure that a degree of priority is given to members of the armed forces and veterans in Northern Ireland when providing health and personal care. The Health Minister, Edwin Poots, is a constituency colleague and hails from Lagan Valley, and I do not wish to criticise him, because he is determined to ensure that our service personnel and veterans receive the level of support they require when they need it. His Department has established an armed forces liaison forum linked to the armed forces protocol, which has done valuable work in seeking to co-ordinate the health and social care response to the needs of service personnel and veterans living in Northern Ireland. In addition, the Department has worked with the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association and military charities to examine how services can be improved in line with the objectives of the military covenant.

I also want to mention the Department for Social Development, where another of my colleagues, Nelson McCausland, is Minister for Social Development. The housing needs of those leaving the armed forces are taken into account under the housing selection scheme in Northern Ireland. That is important.

I also want to praise the work of the aftercare service put in place specifically for those who served with the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment. Northern Irish Members fought hard to get that service in the period leading up to the disbandment of the home service battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment. We worked with the previous Government towards the establishment of the service, because we recognised that one of the legacies of the troubles were the many people who had served in the armed forces in Northern Ireland over a prolonged period as part of Operation Banner, the longest-running military operation in the history of the British Army. These men and women had served constantly. It was not a matter of spending six months on operational deployment in Northern Ireland and then maybe not coming back for another two years. Rather, the Royal Irish Regiment, and the Ulster Defence Regiment before it, served continuously on military operations in Northern Ireland for a very long time—from the early 1970s through to the disbandment of the home service battalions—and was recognised for its service with the award of the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross by Her Majesty the Queen.

The aftercare service is important. We believe that, in time, it is a model that other parts of the United Kingdom might seek to implement. It takes a hands-on approach, not just responding to the needs of soldiers with medical issues or welfare problems, but proactively engaging with people to ensure that their needs are met.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

My right hon. Friend has extensively described much of the support that is available to soldiers who have left the Army, but does he agree that, in the light of the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General and the Ministry of Defence yesterday turning their back on Danny Nightingale, the SAS soldier who has been imprisoned, many people will call into question just how much support soldiers get when they really are in trouble?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. That was a rather long intervention and we have to be careful not to stray into areas that we do not really want to be discussing.

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that case. I was going to allude to it, but I will say simply that it is important that post-traumatic stress disorder and medical conditions arising from military service are given due weight and recognition when military courts consider allegations made against soldiers. I know that this case is the subject of an appeal, so I will not go into the detail, save to say that we on these Benches wish Sergeant Nightingale well in seeking to appeal against the decision made in his case.

The aftercare service provided to veterans of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment makes an important contribution towards ensuring that those who have served in Northern Ireland are provided with the care and support they need. I hope that the Government will continue to fund and resource the service properly, because it is important. Indeed, I hope that in time it can be expanded to include others.

All that said, we on these Benches have a concern about the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland, and it is a concern expressed by others too. There are service personnel and veterans who are not getting the support they need in Northern Ireland. I speak of Northern Ireland because I am not mandated to speak of other areas of the UK, but I am sure that other right hon. and hon. Members might mention instances in their areas of where the military covenant might not quite be delivering yet for service personnel and veterans.

I want to give the House an example of an individual, who I have been trying to help, who has found himself in great difficulty. James Burns is a young man from Mallusk in County Antrim, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). James was formerly a lance corporal with 40 Commando. He had been on operational service in Afghanistan, returned to his family in Northern Ireland and developed post-traumatic stress disorder. Sadly, as a result of his illness he turned to alcohol. As a result of the lethal mix of alcohol and his medical condition, he developed violent behaviour and got himself into trouble, harming himself and those around him. Only a few months after his military career ended, he is sadly now in prison serving a sentence.

I just feel that there is something wrong with a system in which a soldier comes home from operational deployment to his family and, within months, finds himself serving a prison sentence for behaviour that he and his family would argue might have been beyond his control because of his medical condition. I am not trying to excuse what James has done, and his family do not seek to do so either. What they are seeking is help for that young man. He has a young family, and they do not want to see his life completely ruined. There is clearly more that we can do to help young men like James—and, indeed, young women—who develop post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of the traumatic experiences that they have had to endure while on operational deployment.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The case to which my right hon. Friend refers is known to me, and I too have spoken to the father of the young man in question. I totally endorse what my right hon. Friend has said: the family’s plea was for help. They could see what was happening and they really wanted help. It is incumbent on us in the House and those in the Department to ensure that that help is made available to families such as these; they deserve it.

[Mr Donaldson]

I concur with my right hon. Friend’s comments.

In August this year, I wrote to the Minister for the Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) at the Ministry of Defence to raise this case. I understand that, owing to issues relating to data protection legislation, he was unable to respond in as much detail as he might have wished. His advice was that James should

“contact the welfare service at the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency.”

He provided a helpline number for that service. He went on:

“I would also strongly encourage James to raise any medical concerns…with his GP…James may also wish to consider contacting the charity Combat Stress”.

I am sure that there is nothing wrong with that advice, but my point is that there should be someone in the system who can get alongside people like James, who are not in a position to make the appropriate judgment calls, and to help them and their families get access to the level of care that they need. That advice was given before James ended up in prison.

Returning to my remarks about the aftercare service, I believe that that model could be expanded. As a starting point, I would like to see it expanded in Northern Ireland to incorporate those service personnel and veterans who continue to serve in our armed forces, whether in the Royal Irish Regiment, the Irish Guards or any other armed forces unit, and who reside in Northern Ireland. Why should Northern Ireland get such special treatment? We should do so because we have a special problem when it comes to the implementation of the military covenant.

That special problem is section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998—the equality legislation that formed a key element of the Belfast agreement. The section places a statutory duty on public authorities to promote equality when carrying out their functions in relation to Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, officials in various Government Departments in Northern Ireland who might be able to offer support to veterans and service personnel say that they are unable to give any form of preferential treatment.

Let us bear it in mind that the military covenant requires only that action should be taken to ensure that a veteran or a member of the armed forces should face “no disadvantage” as a result of serving or having served in the armed forces. In other words, they should be placed in the position in which they would have been, had they remained a civilian. Unfortunately, however, section 75 is being used in a way that can prevent full implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland. We have a problem, but there are a number of ways in which that problem could be overcome.

In a submission to the Defence Committee of this House, of which I have the good fortune to be a member, it was made clear by the current Northern Ireland Minister for Health, Social Services and Public Safety, Edwin Poots, that there was a problem. Paragraph 36 of the Defence Committee report, “The Armed Forces Covenant in Action? Part 1: Military Casualties”, states:

“The provisions of section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 prevents the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety (DHSSPS) and the Health and Social Care (HSC) sector in Northern Ireland in providing war veterans with priority over other individuals with respect to healthcare treatment.”

This is recognised as a problem, as far as the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland is concerned. The “Report of the Task Force on the Military Covenant” of September 2010 stated that “Service personnel” based in Northern Ireland

“are disadvantaged more than their contemporaries elsewhere…For example, Service families in the province are prevented from identifying themselves as such due to the security situation. This can cause difficulties for partners in explaining their career history to prospective employers and for Service children in obtaining the necessary support in schools, among other issues.”

The report, in making some recommendations, states:

“One possibility currently under consideration is to extend”

the Northern Ireland aftercare service

“to cover all veterans based in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland”.

We Democratic Unionist Members would be happy to see veterans of the UK armed forces who reside in the Republic of Ireland covered by the aftercare service, so that they get the help they need when they need it. I hope the Minister will give careful consideration to the proposition that the aftercare service should be extended to include not only veterans living in Northern Ireland but serving members of the armed forces who live in Northern Ireland and, for whatever reason, may require treatment or access to other services for themselves or their families.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I have received two letters from former southern Irish soldiers who served in the British Army asking that they be given the same rights under the military covenant as their compatriots living within the United Kingdom. I think that is a good idea; it should come almost as part of the package. I entirely endorse what my right hon. Friend says.

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend. We both serve on the Defence Committee. I have great respect for his knowledge and understanding of the armed forces—not least because of the time he served in Northern Ireland. I know he is due to come back to the Province in the near future; we will welcome him very warmly indeed.

I have suggested that the Northern Ireland aftercare service should be expanded to provide support to all veterans living in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland who have served with our armed forces and to the service personnel who reside in Northern Ireland and whose families are based there at present.

Another way of addressing the problem of section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act and the impediment it provides to the implementation of the military covenant in the part of the United Kingdom that I represent is to consider legislation to grant an exemption to any action taken under section 75 by a Government Department in Northern Ireland pursuant to the implementation of the military covenant. We will want to discuss that further with the Ministry of Defence and the Northern Ireland Office. We believe it is important that no obstacle should be put in the way of implementing the military covenant. I know that when section 75 was implemented it was never intended to have such a consequence—but it does, so we need to fix the problem.

I know, too, that the Minister, in recent comments to the Welsh Affairs Committee highlighted the particular challenge in Northern Ireland of implementing the community covenant. Some local authorities in Northern Ireland are controlled by Sinn Fein. Unfortunately, too, there seems to be some reticence on the part of the SDLP when it comes to implementation of the military covenant. As hon. Members have said, let us hope that that is loosening up and that people are now beginning to recognise the fact that, ultimately, we are talking about human beings. We are talking about men and women who need help and support, and it should not matter that they wear the uniform of this country. When they need that support, it should be given to them. I should like some Northern Ireland Members to adopt a slightly more humanitarian approach to the issue.

As the Minister pointed out when he gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee on 30 October, some local authorities in Northern Ireland seem reluctant to support the full implementation of the covenant. We shall want to discuss with the Government ways in which community covenants can be implemented throughout Northern Ireland without being impeded by certain elements in local government.

I also think that there is a great need for some kind of respite facility for the armed forces in Northern Ireland. At present, a veteran or current member of the armed forces living in Northern Ireland who is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and needs recuperation must go to Hollybush House in Scotland. I should like the Government to work with the military charities, the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association, and other stakeholders in Northern Ireland to find a way of resourcing a respite centre there.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

May I suggest that a respite centre in Northern Ireland might not always be a suitable alternative to Hollybush House? Some members of the Army might feel a certain sensitivity about receiving respite care in Northern Ireland. I was extremely concerned to learn from some of my constituents who are retired servicemen that their opportunities to benefit from recuperation and help at Hollybush House have been reduced because resources are not going into that facility. I should be hugely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman if he would call for increased resources for Hollybush House as well.

[Mr Donaldson]

I can only echo what the hon. Lady has said. I agree that there should be adequate resources not just for a proposed facility for Northern Ireland, but for other facilities for veterans and members of the Northern Ireland armed forces. I take her point that not all of them would want to receive their respite care in Northern Ireland itself.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The week before last, I had an opportunity to meet a gentleman from Help for Heroes, a charity of which every Member present will be aware. When I mentioned this very issue to him, he said that although the organisation currently made no such provision specifically for Northern Ireland, it was seeking to do so, and I hope that that will be possible in the near future.

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that information. It is worth noting that the people of Northern Ireland are very generous when it comes to military charities. Year on year, Northern Ireland consistently gives more to the poppy appeal than any other region of the United Kingdom, and Help for Heroes is well supported there. We receive a share of that, and we do not in any way criticise any of the military charities. However, it would be good to see those charities unite with the Government, the RFCA and others in considering what enhanced facilities we might provide in Northern Ireland. That would constitute recognition of the generosity of the people there who support them.

I said earlier that we would meet Ministers to pursue the issues that I have raised. We have already met the Minister for the Armed Forces and we should be happy to meet the Minister of State and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office as well. Thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), we have secured a meeting with the Prime Minister early in December, when we will discuss with him matters relating to the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland.

Her Majesty’s Government have a duty to support the armed forces and the veterans who have served this country so well, and we support them in pursuing the work that they are undertaking in relation to the military covenant. No political obstacle and no political party should get in the way of full implementation of the covenant in every region of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland. I commend the motion to the House.

[Mr Speaker]

I now have to announce the result of the deferred Division on the question relating to the draft Benefit Cap (Housing Benefit) Regulations 2012. The Ayes were 283, and the Noes were 203, so the Ayes have it.

[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]

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[Mr Francois]

I am aware of the issue and pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his persistence on these and related matters. We had an Adjournment debate recently on a parallel issue, although not exactly the same one. I believe that we are doing what we can to try to solve the problem, but as it is quite technical, as he knows, if he wants to write to me on the specific points I would be happy to look into them and get back to him.

In common with other legislation, the provisions of the 2011 Act extend to Northern Ireland in the same way as they apply to all other parts of the United Kingdom. Those principles are important because they influence the formation of policy, but there are other sides to the covenant, too. One of those is the community covenant, which seeks to bring together local authorities and other local organisations with members of the armed forces community who live and serve in the area for which they are responsible. To date, more than 200 local authorities across the United Kingdom have signed a community covenant. I am proud to say that in Essex the other day, I signed that covenant on behalf of the Government in my own county, and some 13 local authorities signed one after the other.

We are clear that by forging such relationships the community covenant is starting to have a positive impact on the lives of the armed forces community and on the wider community. For example, in Gateshead the council is making arrangements, among many other measures, to explore opportunities for serving personnel and veterans to access leisure facilities to support their overall health and well-being needs, including their mental health needs.

In Oxfordshire, the county council, by working with the NHS and 145 (South) Brigade, has been able to help resolve problems of access to GPs and dentists for the families of serving personnel. Dental services have also been extended in some areas to address a shortfall and the referral process for primary care services has been made easier.

Also in Oxfordshire, the local authority has arranged for school places to be allocated to service families in advance of the family’s actual move, based on a letter from the relevant unit. That has been a long-standing problem when military units move from one location to another, but I understand that the Department for Education is now encouraging other local authorities to take a similar approach to try to alleviate the difficulty.

In the past, members of the armed forces could also be pushed towards the bottom of local housing waiting lists, as the need to move from base to base often meant they could not prove a local connection to the area in which they wanted to live, but, thanks again to the armed forces covenant, many local councils will now ensure that due consideration is given to service families so that they are not at a disadvantage when applying for a council home. That extends to serving people, families and, importantly, veterans.

One of the chief benefits of the community covenant is quite simply that people are now talking to one another in a way that they never did before. To some degree, we are doing that in the House this evening. Local authorities, which deliver many of the vital services at ground level, are being made aware of the needs of the armed forces community, which they might not have considered fully in the past. At the same time, it is fair to say that service personnel and their families are becoming increasingly aware of what life is like beyond the wire and how they can help their local communities.

As the House knows, the 2011 Act also places an obligation on the Secretary of State for Defence to report annually to Parliament on the state of the armed forces covenant. The first of these statutory reports will be published before Christmas and will set out in more detail what the Government are doing to deliver in the key areas that the covenant covers.

I now want to speak about extending the armed forces covenant to Northern Ireland. Hon. and right hon. Members from Northern Ireland will be aware that many of the main areas covered by the covenant, such as housing, health and education, all lie within the devolved field and that these services are provided by Northern Ireland Departments, which are answerable to Northern Ireland Ministers in the Executive, not all of whom currently support this agenda, as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley intimated.

Northern Ireland Departments and other public authorities also need to give due regard to the statutory obligations placed on them by section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act to promote equality of opportunity in respect of all the functions they perform and the services they provide. Herein, as it were, lies the dilemma. It is not for Westminster to tell Stormont what it must do in respect of the covenant—it is for Northern Ireland Executive Ministers to debate and negotiate and agree how the armed forces covenant should apply in Northern Ireland to the extent permitted by law.

There are some who say that section 75 is a hindrance and should be amended to somehow allow the covenant to be applied. Of course we want to see the armed forces covenant principles applied right across the United Kingdom. However, if the Northern Ireland Executive decide not to proceed with the covenant, that does not justify amending section 75, which is one of the cornerstones in the architecture of the Belfast agreement that was endorsed in referendums in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.

I think it is fair to say that Northern Ireland has made great progress since the dark days of the troubles. This month we saw the Taoiseach lay a wreath at the war memorial in Enniskillen following on from the historic wreath layings—both at the garden of remembrance in Dublin and at the Irish war memorial at Islandbridge—by Her Majesty the Queen during her highly successful state visit last year. That, of course, built on the historic joint unveiling in 1998 by Her Majesty and the President of Ireland of the Messines peace tower on the site of the battle of Messines Ridge, to remember the Irish dead of the first world war—also mentioned earlier this evening—and to inaugurate the Island of Ireland peace park.

[Mr Donaldson]

I understand the point that the Minister is making. However, the Northern Ireland Executive have not decided that it should not proceed with the military covenant and Ministers in their Departments are free to proceed with implementation. It is just that the equality provisions in section 75 sometimes present an obstacle to that. The Northern Ireland Act cannot be amended by the Northern Ireland Assembly; that is a matter for this House. That is why we want to discuss with the Government how we can overcome that obstacle.

[Mr Francois]

I think what the right hon. Gentleman has said is very reasonable. I hope that some of the acts of remembrance that I was referring to a few minutes ago will inspire those in the Northern Ireland Executive to work together to find a way forward to apply the covenant principles in a practical manner, and I hear what the right hon. Gentleman has said about their only being able to do so much. I think that that is something we could all discuss when we meet the Prime Minister next month. If, in that time, the right hon. Gentleman can explore what could be done by the Northern Ireland Executive, I believe that would materially inform that discussion. Then we need to see where we can go from there. I will leave it to the Minister of State to say whether there is any more that he can add to that when he winds up at the end of the debate, but I hope that I am replying to the right hon. Gentleman in the spirit in which he intervened on me.

My hon. Friend the Minister of State has invited me to visit Northern Ireland. I have accepted his invitation to visit in the new year, to see for myself how the covenant operates in practice and whether there are any practical difficulties. I hope that it will also be possible for me to meet personnel from 38 Brigade. I think that, after the right hon. Gentleman’s comments, I am now honour-bound to visit a cadet unit as well; and as my own father served in the Royal Navy, perhaps I might be able to squeeze in a visit to HMS Caroline, too.

In conclusion, we appreciate the complex history of Northern Ireland, and the sensitivities in this area, but we also appreciate the valuable service in our armed forces given to the Crown by so many from Northern Ireland—and indeed the whole of the island of Ireland—over many generations. It is important that we remember that service, and that we do our best for those who have served with such distinction—and for their families—because they have helped to keep us free.

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[Mike Penning]

Sorry, the 19th. I expect that it is being moved in my diary as we speak, as I hope to be at the meeting.

My one concern is that we must not be too prescriptive. As the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said, a veteran might be living next door to someone who disagrees fundamentally with their serving in the armed forces. It is not as simple as turning up and saying, “I should be rehoused because I am a veteran.” In Northern Ireland, the situation is very difficult. In many cases, we might not want people to know that somebody is ex-service, where they are coming from or where they live, particularly if they come from the nationalist side. I have met many nationalist young people who have served in the armed forces. We have to be really careful not to make the situation worse for them while we are trying to make it better.

[Mr Donaldson]

I take entirely the point that the Minister is making, and my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made it clear that we understand it. On the legislation, we are simply trying to create an enabling environment—not something prescriptive—in which we can do the things that we both want to do.

[Mike Penning]

I agree completely. That is exactly what we need to do. If we can do that, it will be excellent. However, there may still be circumstances in which we need to be very careful about how we proceed.

I raised this issue with the brigadier in charge of 38 (Irish) Brigade at Corporal Day’s funeral, which was the earliest opportunity I had to do so. He said that in the interim, and even afterwards, Members should come to see him or me if they have constituency cases in Northern Ireland of the issues that have been raised. The rapport that the brigadier and his staff have with a lot of local authorities, which can be difficult in this sort of thing, is actually very good. What they say publicly sometimes differs from what they say privately, so we can address many of these issues.

The Defence Minister will write to Members about many other questions that have been raised, but I will deal with one matter of which I am very conscious. I have lots of friends who served in the Falklands. One of my closest friends is Simon Weston, who has done unbelievable things for charity since he suffered his horrific injuries in the Falklands. He tells me all the time that mental health issues such as post-traumatic stress disorder—the percentages do not really matter—rarely show themselves early on, but become apparent later down the line. The difficulty is how we get people to address such problems. Very often, people do not know that they have them. If they do, they often do not want to tell people how they feel because they are very proud people who have served their country. I experienced that when I was in the fire service. I knew many guys who were really struggling with what they had seen over their 15 or 20 years of service. We have to give such people the opportunities to come forward, or have the expertise available for them from the various organisations.

I have to sit down now. This has been an important debate and I am sorry if anybody is disappointed that it was a Northern Ireland Minister who summed up.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House acknowledges the service and sacrifice of the United Kingdom’s armed forces and veterans and supports the full implementation of the military covenant in each region of the United Kingdom.