School Funding

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Thursday 5th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) on securing this debate on an incredibly important subject. I want to start by making two broad points. The first concerns welfare reform, about which there has been some controversy of late. I must admit that I have spoken in favour of tax credit changes on several occasions, and each time I made the point that I felt that the benefit trap prevented people from making the most of their potential. The key thing is that if we are going to reform welfare and take those sorts of tough decisions, we must balance them out by supporting our schools, which enable people to make the most of their potential. I think that that is incredibly important.

The other general point is that Conservative Members have not marched in today calling for more borrowing, a bigger deficit and even more spending. We all support overall Government policy. We simply want a fairer share of the existing spending within the existing prudential spending levels that the Chancellor has set out.

Schools in Suffolk receive block funding per pupil of £4,119 compared with the national average of £4,447. I will resist the urge to get into a debate about who is in the worst position, but Suffolk is certainly in the bottom quartile. In my view, there is a link to standards. There has been a slight improvement recently. For the first time in some years, Suffolk is now slightly ahead of the national average for GCSEs with 53.4% of our pupils gaining five GCSEs at grades A to C, including English and maths.

When I spoke to the county council about the issue, it outlined some of the benefits if we were to achieve higher spending. There is no point simply asking for it: we have to decide what we would do with it. Two things are most important. First, we have some tiny schools in my constituency which have a question mark over their sustainability. With higher spending, we could make small schools more sustainable and therefore preserve a key part of a rural constituency. The other point the council made is that we could meet the increased demands for support for learners with special educational needs and high needs.

I feel very passionately about this subject. I mentioned welfare earlier, and I think that education spending is the prime public good in public spending. It is the way that people from every background can be given a chance by the taxpayer to get on in life. If we are going to spend more on anybody, it must be on those with the greatest needs. In other words, when we ask for higher spending, it is for some of the most vulnerable people in our constituencies. This is not about more money for the middle classes, which is another important point to stress to the Minister.

My final point—something that I have not had a chance to talk about since getting elected but certainly talked a lot about in the build-up to the election in my constituency—is that Suffolk is part of the eastern region. We recently had a referendum about the future of the United Kingdom in which the Prime Minister made a vow. Now, I made a vow to my constituents to represent them and their best interests. The eastern region receives, in total Government spending, an average of £7,950 per head, compared with £9,866 in London and £10,275 in Scotland. Scotland receives 23% per head more than my county while paying identical rates of taxation. I regard that, prima facie, as totally unfair and unacceptable. It would be all right if our trains were of the highest quality.

[Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)]

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman mentions funding. Yesterday in Scotland questions, there was an allegation of Scotland being subsidised, but the fact is that Scottish people are paying more in taxes than they receive back in block grants. His own Government have identified that.

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[David Mowat]

rose—

[James Cartlidge]

I will just make one point so that my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) is not intervening on an intervention, which is that I call on him to support me on that point.

[David Mowat]

On the Barnett formula, it is true that, historically, Scotland has not been subsidised, principally because the Barnett formula extra—over and above need—has been made up for by Scottish oil. Therefore, the taxation situation is as the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) said. That is not the case this year, nor will it be the case in the future.

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

James Cartlidge— back to education.

[James Cartlidge]

It is about education because this is about spending. The point I am making is that if Suffolk had superb trains that were well funded, instead of sending the premium on our railway revenues to other parts of the country, we might feel better about the poor educational funding. If the eastern region received more in terms of the overall Barnett formula, we might feel better. The population of Suffolk is the second-oldest of any county in the country after Norfolk, but our spending formula for health does not reflect that. If all of those were better, we might feel happier. Therefore, we want better spending on schools because our taxpayers are losing out overall. My constituents work hard and pay their taxes. They simply want a fair deal for them and their children.

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[Kevin Foster]

Yes indeed, and let us be clear that the council that would benefit the most from the F40 proposals is Barnsley. If one was looking for an example of an area that one would have thought the Opposition would be committed to wanting to do something for, it would be that one.

For me, this is not about wealthy parts of the country versus deprived parts of the country. There are parts of my constituency that are quite wealthy, but they are the older parts—the places that are less likely to have young families with children going through school. The areas in my constituency that are the most deprived and that have the most challenges are the ones that have the most young families with children going through school. I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) make the point that education is the ladder out of deprivation.

[James Cartlidge]

It is very kind of my hon. Friend to refer to my comments. He is making a very interesting point about overall prosperity. Is it not the case that the levels of deprivation in places such as Tower Hamlets and Hackney were once much higher than they are now, and actually what is happening is that inner London has become relatively far more prosperous, partly because of the housing market and partly because of the City and so on, whereas parts of our constituencies have not caught up at the same pace? That is the underlying change that justifies the demand for fairness.

[Kevin Foster]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. We need up-to-date information and an up-to-date funding formula. Let us be candid: a hundred years ago, Liverpool was a booming port that was producing a tax surplus. Now, the situation there is the other way round, because of changes in industry. It would be strange to hear arguments that we should base funding today on what the economy was like a hundred years ago. Equally, if we do not change the formula and do not move on, people can find themselves living in areas that were once deprived that still receive extra support even though they are no longer deprived.

This is about making sure that pupils are fairly funded, because even in the most prosperous parts of this country there will be families who are struggling and who need the ladder of opportunity that good, solid education provides, so that they can get the jobs and the skills, and share in the aspiration that many of us have.

Trade Union Bill (Ninth sitting)

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

I ran a small financial services business and remember paying high fees, which went up steeply, to the Financial Services Authority. I recall no consultation, about which we were unhappy, but the key issue was that the regulator failed rather substantially in the credit crunch. If such payments are made here, can we have assurances that we will have a good quality system for all those affected?

[Nick Boles]

I am certainly trying my best to ensure that the regulation of trade unions is more effective than the regulation of the financial services industry preceding the 2008 crash. I do not think that the risks are as great, and I have been the first to point out that it is unlikely that the trade unions, which mostly do an excellent job, will crash the economy in the way that the under-regulated financial services industry did under the previous Labour Government. Sir Alan, I think you are going to say that I am moving away from the point, so I will return to it.

The clause enables regulations to be made so that the certification officer can charge a levy on trade unions and employer associations.

Trade Union Bill (Seventh sitting)

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Doughty]

Indeed, I believe that to be the case. I have heard some clear evidence from unions that maintain political funds and, although affiliated to the Labour party, undertake other activities, as well as from those that are not affiliated to the Labour party but maintain political funds. The Government have already taken forward extensive regulation relating to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, the gagging Act and so on. A lot of unions believe that activities will fall under those provisions and are worried about how they will comply.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman clarify something? He seems fearful that the clause will result in less funding for the Labour party, but if that is the case, there must be people who are currently donating through this mechanism but do not want to.

[Stephen Doughty]

It certainly will lead to less money for the Labour party—that is very clear—but not because people do not want to give money. Union money is some of the most transparent and openly gifted in politics. Were I to discuss the funding of the Conservative party at length, I am sure you would rule that out of order, Sir Alan, but it well merits a debate on the Floor of the House. If I remember correctly, in the previous Parliament, the former Member for Banbury could not read out his entire Register of Members’ Financial Interests because it would have taken him longer than the 10 minutes he was allotted.

The fact is that the Government are seeking to frustrate the genuine giving of money to political funds, some of which is then used to contribute to the Labour party. The reality is that people lead busy lives or, for example, are part of a widely dispersed workforce, as USDAW made clear to me. The fact that the transitional period to comply with one of the most major changes in trade union law for generations is only three months underlines the Government’s true intentions.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) was absolutely right to raise this issue with the Prime Minister while she was acting Leader of the Opposition. She asked him to commit not to go ahead with these changes unless there was cross-party agreement. Is the Minister prepared to get to his feet and withdraw these measures and engage in genuine cross-party talks about the funding of party politics? I suspect not.

It is not acceptable for the Prime Minister to be curbing funds given transparently to the Labour party by hard-working people throughout the country while turning a blind eye to donations to the Tories from various corporate sources and hedge funds. If the clause stands part of the Bill unamended and the Bill receives Royal Assent, it will mark the abrupt end of the long-standing consensus in British politics that the Government should not introduce partisan legislation unfairly to disadvantage other political parties.

As Members will be aware from the oral evidence sessions, in 1948 Winston Churchill cautioned against taking such steps. He said:

“It has become a well-established custom that matters affecting the interests of rival parties should not be settled by the imposition of the will of one side over the other, but by an agreement reached either between the leaders of the main parties or by conferences under the impartial guidance of Mr. Speaker.”—[Official Report, 16 February 1948; Vol. 447, c. 859.]

Even Margaret Thatcher, a Prime Minister whose term was defined by her opposition to the trade union movement, considered proposals such as those set out in the Bill to be too extreme. She said:

“legislation on this subject, which would affect the funding of the Labour party, would create great unease and should not be entered into lightly.”

[Interruption.] I know you are asking me to come to a conclusion, Sir Alan. I will be there in a matter of moments. She was right. The Bill and the clause are creating great unease, and I find myself agreeing with the person who I suspect spurred the Minister and I into politics in the first place, although of course for very different reasons. In the light of that, we are looking carefully at the SNP’s new clause, which we will come to in due course, and which would put the Churchill convention into the Bill.

In conclusion, the clause will restrict unions’ right to freedom of association and their ability to engage in political debates, and it will create huge administrative burdens. It is widely known that opt-in processes reduce participation—for example, our approach to auto-enrolment for pensions is based on an opt-out model, given the clear economic evidence.

Amendments 34 and 35 are probing amendments that can be used to argue that members should not be required to submit repeated opt-ins. I hope the Minister will give us his thoughts on them in due course.

Trade Union Bill (Fifth sitting)

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

May I reassure my hon. Friend the Minister? In the light of the evidence sessions and the correspondence I have received from my constituents, although there are a huge number of technical details, the overwhelmingly important point is the one he has made: we support the thresholds in our key public services so that disruption is not brought to our constituents on such a wide scale as we have seen resulting from school closures and so on.

[Nick Boles]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is always good to be reminded of whom we are sent here to represent. Sometimes, I get the sense that Members think they are representing other people.

Perhaps I can help the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland by describing as well as I can who is entitled to vote in a ballot:

“Entitlement to vote in the ballot must be accorded equally to all the members of the trade union who it is reasonable at the time of the ballot for the union to believe will be induced by the union to take part or, as the case may be, to continue to take part in the industrial action in question, and to no others.”

That is my understanding of the law. I have no doubt that he will want to draw my attention to where he disagrees with the law, but I believe that that is what it says in section 227(1) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992.

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[Stephen Doughty]

I do not wish to withdraw the amendment. I will briefly comment on a few of the points that the Committee has made on this group. First, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central raised some important points about the turnout thresholds for police and crime commissioners, which gave us a very strong context for the absurdity of the Government proposals and their position. The Government have been involved in plenty of other ballots, not least the election of many Conservative Members—I accept that this is also true of Opposition Members—where those thresholds would not have been met.

I also refer to the point made on the impact of abstentions, which we will emphasise at numerous points in the Bill. The Government are supposedly serious about increasing turnout, but there is nothing in the Bill to increase participation. My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central made some important points about the potential to undermine partnership working in seeking a resolution to disputes, and spoke of the practical experience that she and others have had. She described a ballot as the most intensive thing that unions and employers go through and spoke of the challenge of getting lists right.

The hon. Member for Glasgow South West aptly pointed out the equality impacts and trade union self-regulation on whether to take action.

[James Cartlidge]

The point of equality impacts has been raised many times. Obviously, the threshold makes no specific statement in any sense on that, but does the hon. Gentleman accept that, going back to the Minister’s point about school closures and the impact of major strikes, women are among the most disproportionately affected, particularly mothers with children at school?

[Stephen Doughty]

I have no doubt that women are affected by strike action. Nobody on the Opposition side of the Committee is attempting to deny that. We are making a point about the impact of the Bill as a whole and its disproportionate impact in every strike ballot that is going to be undertaken under the new rules.

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[Stephen Doughty]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Who should have the power in that situation to determine the type of partnerships and arrangements that exist? Should it be for the UK Government, who claim they are pro-devolution, to interfere in those relationships and negotiations?

The implications are clear. I refer to the position that many Scottish local authorities and Scottish Labour party have taken regarding the Bill, which is essentially a position of non-compliance, particularly with the measures abolishing check-off and curbing facility time. To date, every single Labour-led administration in Scotland has passed motions to that effect. They are giving a clear signal of intent regarding the potential constitutional clash we are heading towards.

[James Cartlidge]

I am very interested in amendment 12, which states:

“None of the provisions of this section shall apply to services provided by the Mayor of London”.

In other words, thresholds would not apply in London. In the city where we have had the greatest problems with tube and bus strikes with low turnouts, on which we have had a huge amount of evidence, is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that we should leave London out of the thresholds?

[Stephen Doughty]

The point we are making with the amendments is that it should be for devolved Governments, and the Mayor of London, to determine the type of relationships they want to have. If the hon. Gentleman wants to get into a debate about the Mayor of London’s relationship with the trade unions, I think he is heading on to a sticky wicket. We heard nonsense from the Mayor of London on Second Reading. That goes back to a fundamental point: we are constantly looking at the impact of strikes rather than the reason for them. It is as though they were all dreamed up by a bunch of militants without cause. That is simply not the case. I suggest we do not go down the line of debating the Mayor of London’s industrial relations.

Going back to Scotland, Scottish local government is making it clear that it will not implement the Bill. If that is the case, as also appears to be the suggestion of the Welsh Government and other public bodies across the UK, we are heading into difficult territory.

The Labour party believes that a collective response and approach to this divisive legislation is both the most ethical and efficacious way to proceed, in the best traditions of trade unionism. Although I understand the principles underpinning many of the SNP amendments in this group that are intended to exempt to Scotland alone from particular clauses, our position is clear. We want to exempt all of the United Kingdom, including Scotland, from all the clauses of the Bill. We intend to do so by voting against each clause of the Bill, and I hope the SNP will continue in the vein already established in Committee and join us in doing so in the principle of solidarity.

There is much that the hon. Member for Glasgow South West and I agree on. However, although I understand the intent behind the SNP amendments, there is a risk that amendments that seek to defend the rights of workers in only part of the UK will play into the Government’s hands and encourage a race to the bottom. I hope the SNP will continue its support in defeating each clause of the Bill and join us in voting against the Bill, should it proceed, on Third Reading.

The SNP has tabled amendments 84 and 85, which relate to consent to legislate on a range of issues across the UK. We believe that devolved nations should be exempted, as per our amendments. Nevertheless, there is no inconsistency in supporting those SNP amendments. We would also look favourably on a number of other amendments the SNP has tabled to later parts of the Bill.

I turn to amendment 11 to clause 3. Setting balloting thresholds for the range of important services outlined in the Bill will clearly have a direct impact on public policy areas that are wholly devolved. As a Welsh Member of Parliament, I am very concerned that the Bill could breach the devolution settlement, whether in Wales, Scotland, local authorities in England or London. In clause 3, it could particularly affect health services and the education of those aged 17.

Trade Union Bill (Fourth sitting)

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

May I just say that we have got a very short period of time left? The purpose of the session is to get in touch with you. You got in touch with us and said that you wanted to say things, and we said that we would like to ask questions of you. I have got about seven or eight Members of Parliament, on both sides, who want to do so. If you can be more succinct—that goes for Members too—we will try to get as many answers out as possible, and that may help both sides.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Q 381 I thank all four of you for coming. I am pleased that we have focused on the thresholds issue, and I agree that it is by far the most important point. In evidence on Tuesday, we heard a large number of examples of serious disruption caused to ordinary members of the public on relatively low turnouts. For example, David Martin, who is a director of Arriva buses, which operates in London, referred to the London strike in 2012. He said:

“The fact that 17% of my staff voted and 50% of the buses did not run in London over that period of time shows us that we need a failsafe, and this Bill delivers that failsafe.”––[Official Report, Trade Union Public Bill Committee, 13 October 2015; c. 7, Q4.]

My question is for Frances O’Grady. At the beginning, you mentioned thresholds in relation to the ILO, and we are now talking about thresholds in relation to e-voting. Are you saying that you oppose the threshold change in principle or that you would accept it if it came with electronic voting?

Frances O'Grady: The TUC’s position is very clear. The labour arm of the UN is very clear that you cannot count abstentions as no votes. We are arguing for a positive, 21st-century solution to boosting ballot turnouts by using modern means, including electronic balloting, in a way that is safe and secure and independently supervised. If that is what this is really about, give us the right to do it, as many of the organisations represented around this table—

[James Cartlidge]

Q 382 When you say “what this is really about”, this is not a conspiracy. We are extremely concerned about ordinary members of the public whose lives are disrupted when schools close, when buses and trains are not available and when London comes to a standstill on the basis of a ballot that has a low turnout. If it has a high turnout, we accept that. We accept the right to strike, and we accept many of the principles upon which your organisations are based. I have a question for Sir Paul—

Sir Paul Kenny: Paul is fine.

[James Cartlidge]

Okay. That is what it says.

In relation to the police, we heard this morning from a senior police officer who was referring to the ability to identify someone when a strike happens and how useful it would be for them if it were easier to identify the lead—the person co-ordinating it. I would be interested in your comments on that.

Sir Paul Kenny: I do not know how many picket lines you have been on—

[James Cartlidge]

Not one as an MP, I must admit.

Sir Paul Kenny: I would be happy to take you.

Look, I have been on a few, for obvious reasons—it is the nature of the job. Before I was a union official, I exercised my right to go on strike. My experience is that where picket lines are correctly policed, they are policed by consent. That normally always means that the officers strike up a relationship over a long period of time. They will introduce themselves and ask exactly who the union official is and who the steward is. The union officials normally wear some identification, but there is a fairly limited number of people. It is not 500 people in the road—the police would deal with that.

The idea that you need to supply lists of names and addresses is a real problem for us, and I will tell you again why. We know, thanks to the Scottish Affairs Committee, that thousands of working people were blacklisted—some for little more than attending a union meeting. There is nothing in the Bill about that. I see nothing that says there are protections and penalties. It is not unnatural for us to say that you have the police, who police by consent, and we support them in that. They strike up relationships with people almost every day—you might hear about the odd occasion here or there. I think that relationship is a good, professional one. Moving that on, so the police take names, keep registers and identify individuals who have attended, leads it into another area that we have incredible mistrust about.

I do not know what the police’s official reaction is, but I would have thought that this is not something they particularly like. I know what you said about one bit of evidence, but I am not certain that that is the view of all policemen.

Dave Prentis: Could I just take up the point about thresholds? We are not just talking about simple thresholds; we are talking about a second threshold in public services. We have no knowledge of which areas will be covered—it is very, very vague. The second threshold means a negation of democracy. If you reach a 50% threshold in, say, a health ballot, 80% of the members have got to vote for action, not a simple majority. It will be impossible to achieve. You are denying the right of public service workers under national agreements to use industrial action as a very final resort. That is how far it is going. You have to realise the unintended consequences of the double threshold—it is not one, it is two. It will bring to an end the right of millions of workers in public services to take action. It will never be achieved. You should be aware of that.

It is a very difficult area for us. We want to increase participation—we know that we have strength the more people participate—but you do not do it in that draconian way, because it will just lead to unofficial action and a breakdown in industrial relations in our public services. You will regret it.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)]

Q 383 What are your opinions on the use of agency workers? What effect could that have on public safety and, where you represent healthcare workers, patient safety?

Frances O'Grady: We have very good relations and agreements with agencies and the federation representing agencies in this country. We have always worked very closely on the fair principles of employers needing flexibility to cover peaks and troughs in production, or staff absences, and doing that on the basis of equal treatment within the framework of the union agreement. This proposal is obviously quite different. We are potentially talking about employers having the right to replace wholesale workers who have democratically voted to go on strike with, potentially, untrained and inexperienced agency workers.

As we know, labour providers source from all over Europe, so is the idea that workers would be bussed in, perhaps from another country, perhaps not knowing what they are being bussed in to do, and be put in the invidious position of being asked to cross a picket line? Many employers, including the industry federation, have said publicly, very clearly, that it is absolutely wrong-headed to put agency workers in the middle of difficult disputes. It is not something we have seen in this country for 40 years or more, and frankly it is either naive or positively dangerous to deliberately seek to undermine legitimately decided and democratically voted on strikes by the use of agency labour.

Dave Prentis: It is a very final resort when a public service worker or a health worker takes industrial action. Last year was the first time in 34 years that our members have taken action over pay, and it was to achieve the Government’s 1% pay award, which the Secretary of State had denied the workers, but we reached written agreements to provide cover. We provided written agreements—we signed them with the other unions involved—on ambulance workers to make sure that ambulances were there, all ready to go in an emergency. We reached written agreements for cover on wards. Sometimes, they have better cover than they do at times when they have staff absences because they want to ensure that the critical wards are covered. There is no need for agencies to be brought in.

With the change in the thresholds and the idea of agency workers—even Margaret Thatcher did not propose this. The idea of using agency workers, combined with all the other restrictions on industrial action, is punitive. Somebody wants to attack trade unions, but they are basing it on 1980s values, and we have moved on. The Bill will not in any way affect the productivity of the country, which we should be looking at—whether competition in Britain is good enough to take on the rest of the world. We are just going to end up fighting with each other, when we should be working together to ensure that workers benefit, the organisations they work for benefit and, in our case, patients benefit.

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[The Chair]

The Minister will reply in writing.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 432 I was merely going to quote Roy Rickhuss, the general secretary of Community, which includes a lot of steelworkers, who said on Tuesday to the Committee:

“I do believe a threshold of 50% plus one is fair and reasonable”.––[Official Report, Trade Union Public Bill Committee, 13 October 2015; c. 27, Q66.]

We heard today from Paul Kenny that his position was that he would negotiate and we heard from Mr McCluskey that he is willing—[Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Question.

[James Cartlidge]

You get the point. There seems to be growing support for the proposal from some moderate voices.

Nick Boles: I think that is the first time that Len McCluskey has ever been described as a moderate—he might shoot you, Mr Cartlidge.

[Jo Stevens]

Q 433 I have a question and I would be very grateful for an answer in writing from the Minister for the Cabinet Office. The Bill will give powers to extend the facilities time cap to the private sector. Which private sector businesses do you intend to apply that facilities time cap to? Bear in mind that we heard evidence from John Cridland on Tuesday that private sector employers have no strong views or attach any importance to that.

Trade Union Bill (Third sitting)

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Stephens]

I am happy.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Q 250 Thank you for coming in today. I want to focus on the point about identification. Mr Hall, you said that it may be of benefit to be able to identify who to speak to and know who is the organiser. Is that not currently the case, in your experience of dealing with disputes?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: I think it is generally the case that you can find out that detail, but I would not say it is always the case. Certainly, when we attend, our ability to find who is supervising the picket line and discuss and negotiate with them about the way the picket is conducted enables people to continue to cross the picket line if they wish to do so and enables those on the picket to approach vehicles or individuals trying to cross the picket line. It is always helpful if we can fairly quickly identify who that supervision is. Generally we can do it, but that is not always the case.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 251 To follow up, I am not trying to pass comment on whether the parts of the Bill that deal with social media are right or wrong, but you use social media for investigations at the moment. People can commit offences using social media. That is currently the case.

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: Yes, it is, and we certainly investigate, all across the country, offences that have allegedly been committed across social media. What we do not do is to censor or vet tweets and social media messages before they are sent out. Once things have gone out, however, we may investigate. Clearly, we could do that in an industrial dispute, as we could in any other area of business.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

Q 252 On social media, I do not think that this appears in the Bill, but it was certainly referred to in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills consultation document on the Bill. The consultation document referred to having to give notice of use of social media in support of a picket, and it referred to having to give notice of the content of social media used to support a picket. That concept is interesting, because if you have to give notice of content on Twitter, you potentially introduce the question of secondary and/or wildcat tweeting in support of picketing. Have you got any comments about that?

Steve White: Goodness gracious me. That fills me with dread and fear, I have to say, in terms of having to vet tweets in advance—crikey! I do not think that that is anything that we want to be getting involved with. I am sorry; I just find that quite bizarre.

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: I think I agree. I do not know how we would manage that. I do not know that it is appropriate for us to do that, because we do not do it in any other area. How we would manage that, I really do not know. I think our only role would be when things have been sent out. If people are potentially committing a criminal offence by sending those out, there is a role, potentially, for us to investigate those, as there is with any other use of social media.

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[Julie Elliott]

Q 293 Thank you. Can I clarify one other thing you said? You said that officials of trade unions were tacitly approving the tactics deployed. Can you tell me which trade unions were doing that? We have the general secretaries of the big trade unions involved in your company here later today giving evidence, and we would like to put that to them.

David Palmer-Jones: The ones that I met, together with Merseyside—the customer—were Unite, GMB and UCATT.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 294 Commissioner Dobson, in your earlier remarks you said that nothing in the Bill will worsen relationships in your view, but there are safeguards in it that will be of benefit. Do you welcome the threshold for action, which is one of the most important parts of the Bill?

Commissioner Dobson: I do welcome it, but it is important for the Committee to recognise that I cannot think of an industrial dispute with the Fire Brigades Union in recent years where that threshold would not have been met, so I do not think it would have had any practical impact on previous disputes.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 295 It is just adding extra safeguards.

Commissioner Dobson: Yes.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 296 Just on what you said to my colleague Mr Argar about examples of intimidation, you said that in 2010 access was stopped to a fire station in an emergency.

Commissioner Dobson: Access was stopped for our emergency fire crews—our contingency service. They were stopped from getting on to our fire station. In 2010, our plan was to deploy emergency fire crews from fire stations, but we had such difficulty in getting the emergency fire crews on to the fire stations because of the picket lines and striking workers who were barricading themselves on to fire stations. In one instance, they took a dog on to the fire station to stop emergency crews getting in.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 297 This was while there was a fire?

Commissioner Dobson: No, this was during the strike. During the fires, we had some instances where the striking workers followed emergency crews to incidents, damaged fire engines en route and tried to intimidate the emergency workers, while they were trying to deal with an incident. In some cases, they were trying to deal with actual fires and they were being obstructed by striking workers.

[Jo Stevens]

Q 298 I have a question for Mr Dobson. You have talked a lot about examples of intimidation during the 2010 dispute, and you also said that you had a private meeting with Mr Carr. You will be aware that the impact assessment for this Bill drew on the Carr review to justify what is in the Bill. I am sure you are also aware that Mr Carr was unable to make any evidence-based proposals or recommendations for change because of the lack of a significant body of evidence to support any recommendations for change. In your meeting with him, did you give him the examples of intimidation that you have described?

Commissioner Dobson: I did, yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

The point has been made. Let us just live in peace and harmony.

[James Cartlidge]

rose—

[The Chair]

I see a Conservative Member wants to be ungagged.

[Stephen Doughty]

Q 325 May I finish my question? Mr Taylor, are you surprised that there appears to be very little Government interest in what is a significant part of their own legislation? What do you think the reasons for that might possibly be?

Byron Taylor: That is a very interesting question. As I said at the start of my evidence, as far as I am concerned, this is a partisan attack on Her Majesty’s Opposition and forms part of a broader attack on civil society. If you look at the concerns being raised about charities’ political campaigning or what is being said about the BBC—it is a deeply partisan attack. It is deeply damaging to our society, and I have real concerns.

I return to the Committee on Standards in Public Life hearings in 2011. Those of you who have read the transcripts will know I gave evidence to that Committee. The argument put forward by the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrat party at that point was that there should be individualisation of political fund payments. The Committee took the majority view that

“such a condition would be a disproportionate intrusion into the constitution of the relevant trade unions”.

That is a really important principle to me—freedom of association and the right of trade union members to come together, form a trade union and determine their own rules and constitution. The Bill is interfering directly in that human right, which I think Amnesty and Liberty made reference to yesterday.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 326 I want to raise a specific technical point. Mr Taylor, you said this is an attack on funding and that funding will go down. Surely, if people have to opt in, funding will only go down if they had not wanted to opt in in the first place.

Byron Taylor: Funding will go down because people have busy lives and the trade union movement is then required to contact every single member to require an opt-in, when many people already believe they are opted in.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 327 But if they have been happy with that donation, your donation levels will not be affected.

Byron Taylor: Many people are happy to contribute to the political work of their trade union. It is a fairly well-established principle among trade union members that they pay to the union, and in return they expect good advice and representation.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 328 But you seem to be saying, “If we actually ask people whether they want to contribute, we’re worried we’re going to find out some of them didn’t want to.” You are admitting that.

Byron Taylor: No, I am absolutely not, because we have not put it to the test yet.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 329 Then funding will not go down, on that basis. If they are all happy punters and happy to contribute to the Labour party, your funding will not go down.

Byron Taylor: You are saying this is not about the Labour party, and that is your immediate problem, because what we are talking about is the opt-in to the political fund of the trade union movement. What is going to happen is that trade unions are going to have to spend an excessive amount of time and resources re-contacting all of their members to ask them to sign back into the political fund in written form. This is a really important point: it is being proposed that everybody will have to do this in writing. In an electronic age when people should be allowed to communicate via telephone, internet or other forms of communication, this Bill is proposing that everybody has to sign a piece of paper. That will drive down participation; we know that for a fact.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 330 Forgive me. You talk about people’s rights. You are suggesting that your funds are going to go down. That must mean that some people who are currently contributing would not want to be contributing. In other words, by defending that, you are defending the fact that someone should involuntarily be contributing to a political party against their rights. You are talking about rights; you should surely accept that point.

Byron Taylor: When people join a trade union, there are things that go with being a member of a trade union, including its political work. Let us go back to the history of the opt-out, and 1913, and the legislation and why it was primarily introduced. The opt-out was introduced in 1913 to ensure that those workers who were working in closed-shop arrangements, who did not want to participate in the political activity of the union, had a chance not to do so. In a closed-shop arrangement, union membership was part of the contract of employment, and therefore, they had to join the union, so it was always seen as a way of protecting a very small minority of people who did not want to participate in the political activity of their trade union. We are now in a situation where the Government are trying to change that and say that everyone has to opt in. When people join a trade union, they join the collective and they participate by the rules of the collective. I am unaware of any other membership organisation that an individual can join where they can opt out of a portion of the rules of the organisation they are joining. This is really strange.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 331 For my last point, I will simply repeat the point that I made, because it is fundamental. If they are all happy donating, you will not be losing any funds when they are asked whether they wish to opt in to making a donation.

Byron Taylor: Do you mean a donation or a contribution to political funds?

[James Cartlidge]

Q 332 We all know what we are talking about.

Byron Taylor: I am not sure I do, but I would like to come back to what happened in 2008 with the Office of Fair Trading. The Conservative party lodged a complaint on this very matter with the OFT through Jonathan Djanogly MP. The OFT ruled:

“In the present case, we do not consider that trade union members are obviously vulnerable to deceit resulting from the way in which unions collect contributions to the levy. The levy has featured prominently in political discourse and news reporting for a very long time. We would expect to take action if we had evidence that large numbers of consumers are unknowingly entering into an unwanted financial commitment from which they are subsequently unable to extricate themselves. We do not at present possess evidence to this effect in relation to the political levy on trade union members.”

This has been a feature of political debate since the late 1940s. There was the Donovan commission in the 1960s. Look at the reviews of party funding that occurred in the 1990s and in 2004, or the Hayden Phillips review in 2006, or the Committee on Standards in Public Life in 2011. The question that comes back is always, “Where is the evidence that some kind of deceit is being practised?”, because it simply is not there.

If we are going to question the purpose of the legislation, may I draw reference to the Conservative Minister of Labour from 1924?

[James Cartlidge]

I was minus 50 then.

Byron Taylor: You may have been minus 50, but this legislation was produced in 1913, so it is totally relevant. He said, in a private memorandum, that the

“major part of the outcry against the political levy is not motivated by a burning indignation for the trade unionist, who is forced to subscribe to the furtherance of political principles which he abhors. It is based on a desire to hit the Socialist party through their pocket…we should not delude ourselves as to our intent.”

My question is: what has changed for the Conservative party?

Trade Union Bill (Second sitting)

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Cameron]

Q 116 But you have no concerns that your views appear to be in opposition to all these bodies, which represent medical and nursing staff and which are concerned about patient care, as well as the impact on it?

Julia Manning: I do not see it as being in opposition. I am as concerned as they are about agency workers, but there are many more issues that require agency workers to come in.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Q 117 It is a pleasure to serve under you for the first time, Sir Alan.

Thank you, Julia, for coming in. I have read many of your organisation’s reports; they are incredibly authoritative and look at many wider issues of health, including stress. The nub of this Bill—the biggest issue—is when cities and economies are paralysed by major strikes that are called on a low turnout. I think that is the biggest issue out there for the man or woman in the street. Those days are incredibly stressful for people who have to reorganise their childcare and who cannot get a train, so that they have to stand in a rugby scrum to get on a bus. But it is a serious point—commuting is one of the most stressful activities that we now do—and so I would like to have your thoughts on whether we can make life easier for people and have less stress by having fewer such disturbances.

Julia Manning: Yes, I agree with you, and that stress applies not only to those who are working in the system, but to those who expect to be treated on that particular day. There are known risks already. I can draw from my own experience of people who have been referred, for instance, for cataract operations for sight loss and have had them postponed again, either because the staff cannot get there or because other staff—usually not directly the doctors, but those who facilitate the care—have taken action.

I recognise that that has been the exception rather than the rule in the NHS. I see that the repercussions of action taken by others, for instance in the transport sector, have a greater knock-on effect and a more direct impact than any action taken by the health service personnel themselves. But the scenario in which someone does not get treated for whatever reason and then has a fall—the worst-case scenario being that which results in their death—can be prevented. If we can put something in place so that that is less likely to happen, I would welcome that.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

Q 118 I was going to ask a question, but you actually answered it in your previous response about the exception to the rule in relation to how industrial action might affect access to services for patients. How often, in your opinion, do the exceptional circumstances that you are coming out with actually happen?

Julia Manning: I only looked back to 1982, I think; so for prior to 1982, I could not tell you.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Stephens]

Q 143 I just have one question for the organisations. If for any reason existing staff, in this case train drivers or bus drivers, were replaced by agency workers, who would be inadequately trained, that would cause both your organisations concern for passenger safety.

David Sidebottom: If that manifested itself to us through representations from passengers, it would of course, yes.

Janet Cooke: Whether they were staff employed by the operator or agency staff, if they were not properly trained, it would be inappropriate for them to work.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 144 I want to focus on the point about timing of ballots. You may be aware that the Bill introduces a four-month time limit. You are talking about the uncertainty caused by striking. It seems that it is on the transport network that these long-standing ballots have been used. What is your view? Do you support that time limit, so that there is greater certainty for yourselves and your passengers?

David Sidebottom: The message that we get loud and clear from passengers whenever there is any disruption, whether it be industrial action, bad weather, or engineering works is, “Get me out of the mess that you are putting me into. Give me the options, give me the information on which I can make choices. When I get up in the morning, is my train going to run, because there are three inches of snow outside and the wind has been blowing, or is there a threat of industrial action?” The requirement for quality information comes across loud and clear.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 145 When a strike actually takes place, does your organisation have an active role in that communication?

David Sidebottom: We scour the websites for information provided by a train company, whether it relates to weather, engineering works or strikes. I was talking with colleagues about this a couple of days ago. We were trying to count instances of action, leaving aside the industrial action with Great Western over the course of the summer. They were few and far between. There have been lots of threats of action, and that causes the uncertainty. As we have seen, particularly with weather disruption, the ability of a train company, Network Rail and bus operators to get information out to passengers in a timely, clear and effective way is the bigger challenge.

Janet Cooke: We would expect operators to provide that information. We just put information on our website. As David says, we keep a very close eye on the information that the operators are putting out and, particularly in London, information about alternative routes that people can take.

I suppose the one thing that we notice is that we get anything from double to five or six times the number of people visiting our website when industrial action is threatened. That is one of the few indicators that we have. So, people are desperately looking for information and it needs to be kept up to date. That is the other thing. The threat of strike action is obviously intended to be disruptive; it is the amount of services that actually run that matters. And obviously the operators will want to be as optimistic as they can be, but sometimes the strike action is not as had been intended, so it is also about keeping passengers up to date with accurate information throughout the day. It is not just the spin about which services are running. So, if people have got to work, they might be able to get home by the mode that they usually use. It is about that up-to-date information through the day as well.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. This is your time and the Committee’s time and we have little of it left, so could you shorten your answers? The Committee members are already in the mood to ask shorter questions.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 160 I will try my best. I welcome the three of you. We respect your passion for all your principles and none of us here is against the right of people to belong to a union or their right to withdraw their labour. The key concern that we, and the Government, have is that there have been a number of strikes in recent years called on very small turnouts and with small percentages of support, which have caused huge disruption for commuters and for people wanting to take their children to school. It is about that disruption.

You talk about workers’ rights. Do you at least accept that commuters and parents have rights as well and that the rights should be balanced within the legislation that we bring forward?

Shane Enright: Let me first say that strikes are technically a matter of absolute last resort. They tend to represent a breakdown in good industrial relations in workplaces and to that extent it is clearly regrettable when situations reach that point. But I have cited ILO jurisprudence and international law and, under the provisions of ILO convention 87 in particular, inconvenience to the public is not a legitimate basis upon which a state can restrict the right to strike.

I also make the point that the numbers of strike days that have taken place annually in the past decade are the lowest for many years. The number is currently at 0.8 million per year, which equates, across the entire workforce, to each worker taking strike action for one day every 15 years. That is a historically low level. If we compare that to the benefits that trade unions can add through effective collective bargaining in the workplace, I would say that the public are convenienced by having strong and effective trade unions.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 161 I shall try to be concise, by taking one fact. In 2011, 62% of England’s schools were closed by an ATL teachers union ballot with a 25% turnout. Do you think that that is fair on the parents and pupils?

Shane Enright: Absolutely. We have a democratic arrangement in this country whereby people in the political sphere are elected by a majority of those taking part in a ballot. We do not have an arrangement in this country, in this sphere or in any other sphere, where absentee voters—people who choose not to vote—are counted as voting against, which is precisely the proposal in this Bill.

Sara Ogilvie: Focusing on the issue of thresholds in particular, it is important to remember that, regardless of what the turnout is in a vote, trade union members are entirely entitled under law not to participate in strike action if they do not support it. So they can exercise their discretion to choose at the moment of the strike. Similarly, they cannot be penalised by their union if they do choose to strike. I worry that if we focus on the issue of thresholds and then say, “Actually, that doesn’t show whether people wanted to strike or not,” that is not really an accurate reflection of what is going on.

I support what has been said here: strikes absolutely cause disruption. That has always been the case and will always be the case, but—

[James Cartlidge]

You do not have a problem with that.

Sara Ogilvie: Of course I have a problem with it. I have to experience it, but, actually, human rights cause a bit of disruption. They are not always enforced in situations in which the whole of society would want that to happen. But I am trying to think of other human rights and I cannot think of another situation whereby if I wanted to exercise my right, I would have to go to a vote and all of my peers would also have to vote to exercise their right and that would be the system you would have to go through. This seems to be something that we would not accept for other human rights and it is not clear to me why we would impose it in this situation and not others.

Dave Smith: My concern about the thresholds and the turnouts that people are talking about is that a 50% threshold is being asked for in order to have a strike action, which might be about unpaid wages or asbestos. Of course, with a 50% threshold most of the people sitting in this room asking questions would not have got elected into Parliament, because most of you have not got more than 50%.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

May I say to the Minister that if he goes back in the report of this sitting, he will see that I switch from speaker to speaker and side to side, and that I only switch to the other side when a Member stops asking questions? It is not a question of the Opposition getting too much time. They are asking the questions, and your side, Minister, are not asking questions in the same numbers. I do, however, admit that it is time on this particular portion. Mr Isaby has promised to put forward all the information to members of the Committee in written form. We have dealt with how much we can deal with today. We still have two or three Members to call. I call Mr Cartlidge.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 211 Thank you, Sir Alan. The key thing for me, Mr Wilson, is that you are clearly at the coalface of all this. You have experienced what it is like running a firm with major industrial issues and disputes. I am interested to hear you talk about having harmonious relations with Unite. In your opinion, will the key measures in the Bill in any way worsen or be likely to worsen industrial relations at your firm?

Tony Wilson: I do not think so. I have had discussions with our regional officer about before and after and what will make the difference. I think what I said about them just trying harder is absolutely true. What I have noticed over my years—many, many years now—is that it is the incidents of postal ballot that have gone up, and not necessarily the strike action. That is where we have faced more threat, in the softest terms. There is more likelihood that the workforce will go to the postal ballot. They will not necessarily go to strike action.

The only two strikes that we have faced in the London bus market have been over the Olympics and the sector-wide collective bargaining. If our business had voted on its own, there would not have been strike action on either of those issues in reality. I do not think our harmonious relationship will be affected by the Bill; we will just have a fairer process for the workforce at large in reality.

[James Cartlidge]

No further questions.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Q 212 I have a question for Mr Isaby. Basically, are you aware that large private sector companies use check-off quite regularly?

Jonathan Isaby: Yes, of course, but that is their affair. They are private companies, so it is not taxpayers’ money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Doughty]

Q 228 I do not expect you to share the detail of this, but have you taken legal advice from your own counsels and legal advice team on the implications of the Bill?

Roseanna Cunningham: We are looking at that, because we feel that it ought to require an LCM—sorry, a legislative consent motion—given the extent of the interference in what are clearly devolved policy areas. We are looking closely at that, and, yes, it will involve taking some legal advice, but I am obviously not going to share it.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 229 On the constitutional point, given that industrial relations are reserved—they are a UK matter—is it not the case that any industrial legislation that comes out from any Government of any type and that potentially affects public services will have ramifications for devolved areas?

Roseanna Cunningham: You are reaching right into the operations of our Government and, in fact, into a significant policy area for us as well. You will have heard the title of my job, which is fair work, skills and training, and that ought to tell you something about the approach that we are trying to take in Scotland, throughout the work that we do. It principally means the way in which we behave as a devolved Administration in terms of our own employment, our relationships with our employees and the way in which we conduct our business. This is now directly reaching into, and attempting to change, the way in which we conduct our business.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 230 But with respect, Mr Doughty raised a constitutional point and I am simply asking whether you accept that industrial relations is a reserved matter? [Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Thank you for bearing with us, Minister.

Roseanna Cunningham: I think that I probably said what I wanted to say.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 231 I had better ask the question again. Do you accept that industrial relations—trade unions matters—are reserved for the United Kingdom Government?

Roseanna Cunningham: They are currently reserved, but we consider that the effect of this is such that it should require an LCM and we are taking advice on that.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 232 Okay, but the impact is on public services such as schools, which have been devolved. We accept that. But do you not have a concern, therefore, in relation to schools? Admittedly the statistics I have are for England and I am sorry about that, but we have had school closures in England on ballots with relatively small turnouts, such as 25%. Would that be of concern to you?

Roseanna Cunningham: I cannot speak to the industrial relations record that exists in England. I can speak only to the industrial relations record that exists in Scotland, and that is not happening in Scotland. In fact, we have a better industrial relations record here than in any other part of the United Kingdom, with the lowest number of days lost to industrial disputes. I would argue that that is the way we conduct our business here, and have done since 2007. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. What we are concerned about is the negative impact that this Bill will have on relationships in Scotland, in an area where we are making a far better impact than there appears to be south of the border.

Trade Union Bill (First sitting)

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Stephens]

Q 8 Part of the difficulty, though, is that the notice for compulsory redundancy is now 45 days. The danger of the Bill—I am curious to hear your views on this—is that trade unions will have to ballot right away when an employer issues a statutory redundancy notice, because it is now 45 days. Given the timescale, does it not worry you that there will actually be more balloting, rather than less?

John Cridland: For employers, we are trying to get the principle of clear consent. If a trade union and its members are going to withdraw their labour, which is clearly their right, we want to see evidence of consent in those situations. The difficulty with the current legislation is that it can leave employers faced with a situation where there is a low turnout—we have already heard the situation that Dr Marshall described of a ballot, prior to a situation where the ballot was some period before. These are not giving clear signals to the employer. So the spirit of our evidence is, “Can we have a system that both in time and in signalling makes it much clearer to the employers the nature of the dispute, and allows the employer to deal with that?” That is what we are after.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Q 9It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Dr Marshall, you raised the point about productivity, and I just want to ask about some of the wider economic impact of the Bill, if it is passed—in particular, the impact on investment, including inward investment, and on making the UK an attractive place to invest, and perhaps, Mr Martin, in terms of your industry, on whether having greater confidence about industrial relations will enable you to have stronger management and therefore attract more investment into it.

Dr Adam Marshall: Many thanks for the question. Undoubtedly, businesses that believe that the framework for industrial relations is modern and secure will be more confident when it becomes time to invest, particularly in those industries, such as the one represented by Mr Martin, that are affected by some of the enhanced thresholds that this Bill puts in place.

We have been very supportive of the definition of which areas should fall under those enhanced thresholds, in part because those businesses are extremely capital-intensive and do things that are extremely important to the functioning of the broader business community. So whether we are talking about transport, the delivery of energy supplies and indeed—vis-à-vis the supply of future skills—whether we are talking about the education sector, these are things that have a huge knock-on effect on the rest of the economy. So we believe that these measures are proportionate to help with that particular challenge.

Vis-à-vis our attractiveness to overseas businesses, one only needs to look at the media impact of transport strikes in London—how they are reported—and what you see are the knock-on effects on the economy of this particular area, and of course we have seen that played out in other cities as well, right across the UK. That has a deterrent effect on would-be investors, and I think that we would see that deterrent effect being lessened with a modernised system.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 10 Mr Martin has obviously had some experience of industrial action. If his management were more confident in the future that there would be less disruption, would that enable his company to attract more investment, to expand and all those things that we want to see across industry?

David Martin: Undoubtedly. It is an obvious statement but investment is all about confidence, and confidence breeds a situation where, from my viewpoint, effective trade union relationships and effective employee relations are a fundamental part of what we do. We employ 60,000 people all across Europe—25,000 people in the UK—and those relations are fundamental to us. And we deliver passenger journeys to more than 2 billion people a year, so we are fundamentally a massive part of overall GDP in local areas and in national areas. Clearly, if confidence is higher, then investment undoubtedly will reflect that.

Would that be a major issue? Frankly, I would say that it would not be, because it would not stop us investing. It is up to us as a management team to manage our industrial relations practices, but if it all goes wrong and it comes to it, I think it is absolutely fair that a proper mandate is there with our trade union colleagues to leverage their position on behalf of the employees.

[The Chair]

If you want to ask a question, try to give us plenty of warning, so that we can fit you all in. It is going well at the moment; I hope that we will get everyone in.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I know that our next question will be very brief and to the point and our trade union team will give just one quick answer.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 63 I want to ask John Hannett—I know you are on the Low Pay Commission and that you have many workers at Tesco, many of whom will be mums, who work part-time, probably at the lower end of the pay scale. I am sure that you will agree they are precisely the sorts of people who suffer when the local school closes or when buses are on strike and that—going back to the thresholds, which is the most important part of the Bill—it is in their interests that we have very reasonable thresholds. On that basis, would you agree that the thresholds that we are putting forward are reasonable?

John Hannett: Well, I think you have to look not just at the thresholds in isolation but at access and balloting arrangements and that was the answer that we gave before. In terms of Tesco and people on low pay, the reality is that strikes are very small in number in the UK, which has been demonstrated over many years. What I think is missing, which is the general point that I would make—and I made the point about control mechanisms—is encouraging good industrial relations, partnership and the stuff that Roy and I are doing. It is all about a race to the bottom. The people who work in Tesco, of course they want to be able to take their children to school but the fact that there is a dispute means that the best emphasis is on how you resolve the dispute.

Everything that I heard in the Bill is about thresholds, mechanisms, control mechanisms—I have also been on the ACAS council for a number of years and all my training, which I believe applies to trade unions, is to solve the disputes. The first thing you do when you go on strike is to try to avoid it by using your mechanisms and your procedures. However, if you do end up in a strike position, there is not a trade union leader I know—or there should be no trade union leader—who takes strike action easily or recommends it. It is a very serious position to take; people lose money, or potentially lose their jobs. That is why think you will find, overall, unions are problem solvers, not problem causers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Stephens]

Q 85 I have several questions. First, do you agree that there is a danger in introducing thresholds—the impact that it will have on some gender equality issues, for example? Shift changes impact workers trying to pursue equal pay issues and the like. Secondly, is there a new danger of public bodies having to reissue new, individual contracts on the basis of opportunities to check-off and those sorts of issues? Do you see any impact on the devolved Administrations given that your organisation has offices across the UK?

Stephen Cavalier: First, on the equality point, the TUC has already submitted evidence. There is a disproportionate impact of thresholds on women workers; it is absolutely clear that there is a discriminatory impact. On the question of check-off and facility time, we are also a large employer. We have check-off and facility time and we are pleased to do so. It is something that we have agreed with our workforce and it works very well for us. I very much endorse the comments made in a 2012 paper by called “Stop the Union-Bashing” by Robert Halfon MP, who says that Whitehall should not dictate to employers and that it should be a matter for employers to agree facility time. I commend that paper to the Committee. It is certainly right that employers should agree facility time and check-off. It is a matter for them.

There are serious issues here associated with the devolved Administrations. As I understand it, they have the right to determine these arrangements within their own spheres. This does cut across that, and it does so in a very negative way. It is very concerning that the impact assessment itself—in fact, I think the European convention assessment that the Government have produced says specifically that this removal of existing contractual arrangements and collective agreements may have retrospective effect. That is a serious potential breach of article 1, protocol 1 of the European convention.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 86 Thank you both for coming. You have both spoken about thresholds and their potential impact, but neither of you seem to have focused on the key point that matters to the country at large, which is that it is so unfair to our commuters, our parents and so on that their public services can be brought down for days on low turnouts. We heard earlier from Arriva that on a 17% ballot, 50% of their buses were out for a day, causing massive disruption to its passengers. Do you not accept, in principle, that it is right to deal with that?

Mike Emmott: Our view is that although it is conceivable that the increased threshold will influence the outcome in some cases, it is quite unclear whether it is going to make striking more or less likely. There are lots of way of causing problems. We do not have a view on whether or not the thresholds are right in principle. We simply take the view that they are just as likely to cause more trouble as they are to reduce it.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 87 The point is not whether it makes it more or less likely, in my view. The point is that if the strike goes ahead with the sort of turnout we will require, the public are much more likely to accept it. That is surely the point. At the moment, these strikes are happening on a very low turnout. Do you accept that we are right to deal with that?

Stephen Cavalier: Can I come in on that premise? The Regulatory Policy Committee has said that there is no evidence that the thresholds would have that impact. Strikes are not going ahead on those low thresholds. One particular example was given by a colleague from Arriva, and what he said about inward investment in response to the question was very interesting. The fact of the matter is that the current legislation and the current situation have not prevented the Governments of France, Germany, Holland and other countries from investing in the UK rail network and owning train operating companies. There simply is not that problem.

[James Cartlidge]

Q 88 So you do not think we should be doing anything about thresholds. You think it is right that schools, buses and other major public services can be brought down for a day or more on the basis of very low turnouts. In principle, do you think that is fair?

Stephen Cavalier: There is not a problem on low turnouts, and the way to tackle turnouts that has been suggested is workplace ballots and electronic ballots.

Mike Emmott: Simply, if you have a ballot, the unions are going to take into account the likely response by members and choose situations where they are more likely to win rather than lose, and why not? Once you get a big majority in favour and it is clear and transparent, I think that legitimises the action. Whether it makes it more acceptable I am quite doubtful of, but you have to take account of the fact that you may be pulling in members who actually support the action that is being called rather than appealing to some supposedly moderate majority who do not want it.

[The Chair]

The last question will be from Stephen Doughty.