Trident

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

I will make a bit of progress, but I will happily take interventions later.

The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute said a moment ago that Labour’s position needed clarifying, and I am happy to offer him that. Labour’s position, as agreed by the national policy forum in 2014 and approved by Labour party conference in Brighton this year, is that we are committed to a minimum, credible, independent nuclear deterrent, delivered through a continuous at-sea deterrent. That is the policy that was in the manifesto that all Labour Members of Parliament fought the 2015 general election on, and we are proud of the previous Labour Government’s approach to, and success on, disarmament. That saw Britain make huge progress in nuclear disarmament through international frameworks. We almost halved the number of operationally available warheads to fewer than 160 and reduced the number of deployed warheads on each submarine. We also scrapped the free-fall WE177 tactical nuclear weapons in 1998, making the UK the only recognised nuclear-armed non-proliferation treaty country to possess just one nuclear system. All that is simply a declaration of fact.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) has recently been elected to be the leader of the Labour party and his views on the subject are well known. He appointed my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) to be his shadow Secretary of State for Defence knowing her clear position on this question.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the way in which he is conducting this part of the debate. Will the review his party is carrying out consider the implications for HMNB Clyde, the submarine base at Faslane and for the Royal Naval Armament Depot Coulport and also the implications for Plymouth?

[Toby Perkins]

I can absolutely give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. This is very much a question about our military capability, but we can never ignore the fact that it is a very important economic regeneration question, too.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington North announced at conference, the shadow Secretary of State for Defence will lead a review on all aspects of our defence policy including our nuclear deterrent. She has been clear that she is going to lead an evidence-based review in an open-minded, inclusive and transparent way that investigates the issues that have been reviewed on many occasions and also searches for any new relevant evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Yes, Mr Nicolson, I was just turning over in my mind whether the description “robot” for a Member of this House would be considered derogatory. I have come to the conclusion that in some circumstances it might, and in some it might not. For the moment, I am concluding, for my own peace of mind, that the hon. Gentleman was thinking of a high-functioning, intelligent robot. Therefore, for the moment, I will not call him to order for the use of the word, but I am sure the House will be warned that we should be very careful in our use of language.

[Ian Paisley]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek clarification: I thought the hon. Gentleman called the hon. Members “Roberts”, and anyone from Scotland should not mind that reference, bearing in mind Robbie the Bruce.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No, on the contrary. As to Mr Paisley’s point of order, every eldest male member of my family for the past 100 years has been called Robert; it must be a good thing.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Woodcock]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am very happy to refer to SNP Members as honourable robots if that is any help, but robots they are, following their instructions in an extraordinary unity almost never seen before in this place.

I was making a point about the failure on hospitals over which the SNP is presiding—there is failure on waiting times, intolerable pressure on nurses and so on. Instead of addressing those points, the SNP seeks this parliamentary distraction of a debate on Trident, and we will not fall for it.

[Ian Paisley]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman giving way, because he was not given way to earlier in the debate, and he should have been. He has set out the context of the debate. Does it surprise him that today, in the Northern Ireland Assembly, Sinn Féin, which butchered and bombed people across the entire United Kingdom, has a similar motion calling for the cancellation of Trident? Would he like to reflect on that?

[John Woodcock]

I do not know. It is certainly something on which the Scottish National party Member who winds up may wish to reflect. I will go back to the SNP in a moment, but first let me implore the Minister to respond to my questions, because, understandably, I was not able to intervene on the Secretary of State for a second time earlier in the debate. In his winding-up speech—or he can intervene on me now—will the Minister make it clear that the change in management structure for this programme will in no way affect the superb workforce in Barrow-in-Furness, Derby, and so many constituencies around the country? The measure has long been discussed and is designed to get increased effectiveness out of the programme.

Furthermore, will the Minister comment on the extra pressure that may be placed on the ageing Vanguard class hulls by the further delay, and on whether the Royal Navy and his Department have carried out the scoping that will be required because of the extra delay in the in-service date for the new boats?

This is a debate about the Scottish National party, whose Members are sitting next to me. They seem perfectly happy to scrap 10,000 jobs in Faslane.

Military Covenant

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

May I say how apt it is to have this debate today? On Monday, with my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), I was in Northern Ireland, visiting graves with the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. It was an enormous privilege to be able to pay tribute not only to them, but to the graves of the Scots, the Welsh and the English who had given their lives during the first world war.

Before I go any further, I want to place my contribution in some context. I am the vice-chairman of the all-party group on the armed forces, with special responsibility for the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy, as well as vice-chairman of the all-party group on veterans. I have been involved, too, with the veterans’ court partnership run by Trevor Philpott down in Devon and with Forward Assist of which I am a patron, as encouraged by my very good friend, the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), who unfortunately does not sit on this side of the fence, but there we go.

I am the Member of Parliament for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, which is the home of 3 Commando Brigade, a fine set of Royal Marines and Royal Navy personnel. Let me take this opportunity to thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—who is unfortunately not in his place—for investing £2.6 billion in Devonport dockyard, which will, I hope, safeguard 4,000 jobs for the foreseeable future. It is a very different place from what it was when I was first elected—I do not pretend for a moment that I have been totally responsible for that, but I hope that I have been able to put some pressure on the coalition Government to ensure that Devonport was safeguarded much more than would otherwise have been the case. During my 10 years as the candidate for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, I have been for ever asking questions—or, more importantly, answering them—about what would happen to Devonport in the future. I certainly think that it is much safer now than it has been for a very long time.

In the Plymouth area, the jobs of more than 25,000 people depend on the defence industry, and there are a large number of veterans. I pay tribute to Her Majesty’s School Heroes, which looks after some of the young children of servicemen and women. Those children must have had an incredibly difficult time over the past few years, seeing their parents go off and fight in Afghanistan and, of course, in earlier campaigns. It must be incredibly worrying for them when their parents are deployed abroad, and I am delighted that Plymouth has worked so hard to put that right.

Last year, we on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee—on which I serve, and I am delighted to have my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury as my Chairman—went to Washington to see for ourselves how the United States has been looking after its veterans. We had to take account of the fact that the United States unfortunately does not have the national health service that we have here, and does not necessarily have the same welfare provision. However, we learned a great deal while we were there.

I fear that Britain is set to face a tidal wave of mental health issues, and we shall have to do something about that. I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), who, as a defence Minister, did so much work in putting together “Fighting Fit”, which gave us a clear blueprint for dealing with some of those issues.

While we were in the United States, we heard from a man from Little Rock about the setting up of military courts to discipline veterans who have had problems in the justice system. That was one lesson that I learned from the visit.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman plays a very distinguished role on the Select Committee. Does he agree that the real difference between us and the United States was the fact that billions of dollars are available to services for veterans? By comparison, the amount that is available for the purpose in any other country, let alone the United Kingdom, pales into insignificance.

First World War (Commemoration)

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Thursday 26th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

It is a huge honour to speak in this important debate. Many Members have said that, and I think that when we reflect on the way the debate was introduced by both Front-Bench teams, we have to salute that fact. I commend the Front Benchers for what they have done.

As Members walk into this House, they are witness to a memorial to the first world war—the great war—as they walk past plaques in memory of the many gallant Members who have laid down their lives. Two are particularly significant: one for Captain O’Neill and one for Major Willie Redmond—two Irishmen, one an Irish Unionist and one an Irish nationalist, both of whom fought for king and country and both of whom made the ultimate sacrifice for king and country. They were able to set aside their other divisions and associations and to unite behind a greater cause: to fight for liberty and freedom for all their people. Those two plaques on either side stand as pillars in this House. We pass them each day, probably rarely paying attention to them, but today we have the opportunity to reflect on how those pillars unite two very different ideologies and viewpoints on what should happen on my island. That is significant; it is poignant; and it is important.

The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) said this was the war that was supposed to end all wars and to change all wars. Of course, it also united our peoples in a solemn way. It united us in bravery and in grief, and we should reflect on that. I, of course, as an Ulster Unionist, am proud of the people of my country and want to reflect on the sacrifice that I believe was beyond the call of duty made by many an Ulsterman and Ulsterwoman.

The number of Victoria Crosses won by Irishmen in the first world war has already been commented on in the House today. One of those men was from my own constituency, from the village of Bushmills. As the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) said, these were not professional soldiers, but ordinary men and women. Private Quigg was a gamekeeper on the Macnaghten estate in Bushmills and it is appropriate that his gallantry is put on the record of the House. He was awarded the Victoria Cross for “most conspicuous bravery” at the battle of the Somme on 1 July 1916.

Prior to a major offensive, Quigg’s unit had been placed in the French village of Hamel. On 1 July the Mid-Antrim Volunteers were ordered to advance through the defences towards the heavily defended German lines. During the advance, they encountered fierce resistance from heavy machinegun and shell fire. Quiggs’s platoon made three advances during that day, only to be beaten back on each occasion by German fire. The final evening assault left many hundreds of the 12th Battalion lying dead and wounded in no man’s land.

In the early hours of the next morning it was reported that Lieutenant Harry Macnaghten, also from Bushmills, the platoon commander, was missing. Robert Quigg immediately volunteered to go out into no man’s land to try to locate him. He went out seven times to search for the missing officer, each time without success. On each occasion, he came under heavy machinegun fire, but he managed to return with a wounded colleague on every occasion. It was reported that on one of his forays he crawled within yards of a German position to rescue a wounded soldier, whom he dragged back on a waterproof groundsheet. After seven hours of trying and wrestling through that mudbath and bloodbath to try to find his platoon commander, he gave up in exhaustion. Robert’s efforts to find the body of Lieutenant Harry Macnaghten were in vain, as his body was never recovered.

On 8 January 1917, Quigg received the Victoria Cross from King George V at York cottage, Sandringham. Queen Mary was also present. Later the Russians recognised his bravery and presented him with the medal of the Order of St George, fourth-class division. This is the highest award the Russian empire could give to any individual who was not a Russian citizen. That says something about the remarkable efforts that that Ulsterman made.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) earlier read on to the record Captain W. B. Spender’s comment that he was not an Ulsterman, but that the previous day, 1 July 1916, he wished he had been. Captain Spender went on to say:

“The Ulster Volunteer Force, from which the Division was made, has won a name which equals any in history. Their devotion deserves the gratitude of the British Empire.”

King George V said:

“I recall the deeds of the 36th (Ulster) Division, which have more than fulfilled the high opinion formed by me on inspecting that force on the eve of its departure for the front. Throughout the long years of struggle, which have now so gloriously ended, the men of Ulster have proved how nobly they fight and die.”

Winston Churchill wrote of the 36th Ulster Division and his pride in them. He said that

“they acquired a reputation for conduct and devotion deathless in military history of the United Kingdom, and repeatedly signalised in the despatches of the Commander-in-Chief.”

That says something of the devotion of Ulsterman in the battles of the first world war, and of Irishmen who volunteered to fight for king and country. The level of sacrifice reminds us that we as a nation must now resource that memory and encourage our schools, colleges and education boards to grasp that memory and ensure that it is not lost in time. That would be a great travesty.

I believe that we have a duty to remember our glorious dead. Some 140,000 Irishmen volunteered to fight in the great war. According to the records, 50,000 men from Irish divisions were casualties. Indeed, 5,500 from the 36th Ulster Division were killed or wounded in one day on the Somme, between 1 and 2 July 1916. In September, another 4,500 were recorded as wounded or missing from the 16th Irish Division at Guillemont. The 16th Irish Division suffered more than 28,000 casualties during the war. The fact that they came from so small a nation amplifies their sacrifice all the more.

As other Members have mentioned, the sacrifice was not only from these islands; a major sacrifice was made by the Dominions and other nations. The British empire in 1914 covered 9 million square miles and represented 348 million people. Canada sent 458,000 men to the war; Australia sent 332,000; New Zealand sent 112,000; South Africa sent 136,000—the list goes on. The sacrifice of each of those nations was immense, but also terrible and troubling, given what they had to do.

As we remember our glorious dead and the glorious memory that they have rightly earned and paid for in their blood across Flanders fields, and as we tell the story and try to commit these things to memory, we must also look forward and recognise that some good has to come from all that. Her Majesty the Queen, on her gracious visit to the Republic of Ireland, visited the memorial to the Irish soldiers who fought in the first world war. That act was not only very important and significant, but a recognition of the fact that Irishmen now want to remember that they made a major contribution to the battles that were fought, and that is very significant. Indeed, it is encouraging, because although there are things that divide us, there are things that have united us that are far, far stronger.

Military Credit Union

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan, for what I think is the first time. Given your past and present, you seem to be a particularly good choice of Chair for this debate, although I recognise that that will not save me if I deviate from the usual rules and conventions. In that spirit, I should say that I am one of 8 million ordinary members of the Co-op Group; I have accounts with Nationwide; I belong to the M for Money credit union in Harrow and the Rainbow Saver credit union; and I am privileged to chair the Co-op party and to be one of its MPs in the House.

This month marks the 50th anniversary of the first two credit unions in the UK. Now would be a good time for the Government to facilitate the establishment of a new credit union for our soldiers, sailors, Air Force personnel and their families. Hornsey Co-operative credit union was one of those first two 50 years ago; it is now part of the London Capital credit union, which is directly taking on payday lenders throughout the capital, charging only £12 interest a month on a £400 loan, compared with the £120 charged by a typical payday lender for the same loan over the same period. That is one of many examples of how credit unions can offer a powerful alternative to payday lenders.

I am grateful to Mr Speaker for the opportunity to press the case for the Government and the senior ranks of our armed forces to do more to facilitate access to a military credit union or to credit unions more generally, which can serve the needs of our armed forces personnel. Those personnel often face particular challenges in accessing financial services and sometimes have limited opportunity to develop financial management skills. In addition, as Lord Ashcroft has pointed out, transitions from military to civilian life are often hard and there is the potential for worry about debt to be a life-threatening distraction.

I hope that the Minister will commit to a feasibility study to establish a military credit union, to report by the end of the Parliament, and that he will say what he will do in the meantime to facilitate and encourage access to credit unions by members of our armed forces. I recognise and welcome the interest that a number of Ministers have shown in the idea of such a union, but I hope that this Minister will be able to do more than merely repeat interest and that he will demonstrate a more tangible commitment.

A credit union is a financial co-operative, which provides savings, loans and a range of other services to its members. It is owned and controlled by the members, and each member has one vote. Volunteer directors are elected from the membership of the credit union, by the membership. Credit unions are owned by their own users and not by external shareholders or investors, so the emphasis is always on providing the best service to members, rather than on maximising profits from their customers.

Such financial co-operatives exist throughout the world, as well as in the UK, and there are some 200 million members in 56,000 credit unions in more than 100 countries. Indeed, in the USA, Canada, Australia and Ireland, more than a quarter of the population are credit union members. Such a target is achievable over time in the UK and, if 25% of the British population were members of a credit union, I suspect that payday loan firms would have fewer customers. More than 90% of the British population can join a credit union because of where they live, which is in no small part thanks to investment by the previous Labour Government, which, to be fair, is continued by the current Department for Work and Pensions credit union expansion plan.

I pay tribute to the many hundreds of volunteer board members and to the staff helping to drive a slow expansion in credit union members in the UK. I hope that the House will indulge me if I take the opportunity to praise Graham Tomlin of M for Money, which serves my constituency, and the board of the excellent Rainbow Saver credit union. I hope that the Government will do more to increase awareness of credit unions generally, but in particular among the military, because Whitehall, local government and housing associations could do much to make military personnel and others aware of the benefits of credit union membership. Crucially, credit unions, including any new military credit union that might be set up, are authorised and regulated by the Prudential Regulation Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority.

As I set out in my ten-minute rule Bill on the same subject last year, my inspiration is the success of Navy Federal in the United States, which since 1933 and its first seven members has grown to have almost 4,700,000 members, with $44.5 billion in assets. Based in Vienna in Virginia, it is the world’s largest credit union, with 220 branches and almost 9,000 employees. It offers savings accounts, car loans, credit cards, 24/7 telephone access, internet and mobile banking, budget counselling and more than 45,000 ATMs, among other services, to people as diverse as navy SEALs and army cooks.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the other services under that regime in the United States is insurance? That is incredibly attractive to service personnel, who recognise that they will get a very good insurance package if something terrible happens to them or their loved ones.

[Mr Thomas]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. If I remember rightly, through a subsidiary Navy Federal offers specialist insurance services as well. In short, it offers highly competitive services to those who put themselves in harm’s way for the United States. It provides tailored services to military personnel, supporting their specific needs, including the commitment to cover pay during the threatened US Government shutdown last year. The president or chief executive of Navy Federal is not perhaps the most obvious missionary for co-operation. Cutler Dawson is a graduate of the US Naval academy and served for 35 years in the US navy. He ended up as a vice-admiral, commanding four ships—the Enterprise battle group—and was the commander of the US second fleet.

Other significant military credit unions in the US include the Air Force Federal credit union, which charges no fees on its regular savings and cheque accounts. It requires a minimum deposit of only $5 and, for example, offers 60-month car loans with an annual percentage rate, or APR, of only 1.6%. The Pentagon Federal credit union has 1.2 million members and $1.7 billion in assets. Australia, too, has a credit union for its service personnel; the Australian Defence credit union has been providing banking services to defence personnel and contractors, and their families, since as long ago as 1959. It now has 34 branches, assets approaching 1 billion Australian dollars and more than 47,000 members. Again, each member of that credit union has an equal say in how it operates.

Credit unions provide a responsible alternative for savings and loans and an inclusive service for all people, as well as being a crucial alternative to high-interest lenders. They are owned by their members and, because they have no external shareholders, they can offer competitive borrowing and savings rates.

I realise that establishing a new credit union dedicated to the military could take some time. It would involve some cost and, crucially, would not immediately be able to offer the lowest alternatives to payday loans that better capitalised and more well established credit unions are providing. I hope that, as well as committing to the specific feasibility study for a dedicated military credit union, the Minister will consider working with existing credit unions that may be able to offer our armed forces personnel access to the best credit union products and services straight away.

One such credit union, the Plane Saver credit union, has approached me directly and I believe it has written to the Secretary of State for Defence offering its services to do just what I have suggested. I am sure that other credit unions—and, indeed, the Association of British Credit Unions Ltd, the excellent trade body for the credit union movement—could help the MOD to think through how to provide more immediate access to the benefits of a credit union while cracking on with a feasibility study for a dedicated military credit union.

One crucial requirement if credit union services are to be accessible to our soldiers, airmen and women, and naval personnel, is for the Ministry of Defence to be able to put in place payroll deduction, just as payments are made directly from wages for all sorts of reasons already. It should surely be an employee’s right to be able to make payments from wages into their local credit union account. Many employers in other public services already allow that simple process, which in turn strengthens credit unions and helps to build their sustainability, enabling them to pass on to their members benefits in the form of better loan rates and dividends. ABCUL has said:

“Payroll deduction is an easy and convenient way for employees to get a savings habit and access affordable credit.”

There would be some additional work and, therefore, costs for the Ministry of Defence in running such a payroll deduction service. For example, regular payments and information and details of leavers, as well as of those joining the credit union, would need to be provided to the relevant credit union or unions in a timely manner, but payroll deductions are not a new concept and the MOD should be more than able to take that in its stride. Will the Minister set out whether he and the Secretary of State are willing in principle to allow payroll deduction for credit union membership? If not, will he say why?

Some of the many credit unions that already exist in Britain and internationally have strong links to particular groups of employees, as a new military credit union clearly would. That enables them to provide services to a range of employees, highly paid and lower paid, earlier or later in their careers, and allows the credit union to build a balanced portfolio for all. Such credit unions can offer extremely competitive terms. For example, the Police credit union serves a similar uniformed service and offers savings returns of 2.5% on instant access cash ISA accounts alongside small short-term loans at 25% APR or larger, longer-term loans from 4.3% APR. ABCUL tells me that similar examples exist in the passenger transport, airline, NHS and local government sectors.

Sadly, colleagues on both sides of the House will be aware of the many shocking statistics on the increasing use of payday loans in the UK. The Money Advice Service reported that some 1.2 million people took out payday loans to get through Christmas last year. The Debt Advice Foundation found that one in four people who took out payday loans did so to buy food or other essentials. Particularly worrying, perhaps, is that some 44% of people used payday loans to pay off other debts, thus sinking even further into the quicksand-like trap of ever-increasing debt.

Research from the Office of Fair Trading found that 50% of the industry’s profits come from refinancing, with those who take loans out repeatedly creating the largest return for the industry’s big boys. Some 19% of the industry’s profits came from just 5% of loans that were rolled over four times or more. That is a growing problem. Research from Citizens Advice shows that in just two years there has been a fourfold rise in the number of people seeking its advice with debt problems as a result of taking out payday loans.

Last year, I spoke to the chief executives of several Citizens Advice branches located close to military bases, and they said a pattern was clear. Soldiers and sailors were facing real financial difficulties because they had taken out one payday loan for a small sum and soon found themselves in ever deeper problems as one loan became two, two became three, and the interest mounted up and up.

The problem is clearly not limited to armed forces personnel—far from it. R3, the Association of Business Recovery Professionals, is the body representing insolvency practitioners, and published data in December 2013 showing that some 47% of British adults are worried about their debt levels, with 44% struggling to make it to pay day. Interestingly, R3’s research found that 71% of British adults blame the rising cost of living for their struggle to make it to pay day, but I digress.

Payday loans are a real and growing problem for our armed forces. The Royal British Legion published research warning that one third of all of the debt problems it deals with relate to people struggling with payday-style unsecured loans. In 2011, its money and benefit advice service was helping 11,000 servicemen and ex-servicemen with debt problems. That is a huge increase from when the service started back in 2007, when it helped just over 2,000 people. ABF, the soldiers’ charity—formerly the Army Benevolent Fund—does important work in many of our constituencies and has said that it gives half the money it raises directly to individuals to help in areas such as debt relief. That figure is remarkable by any definition.

There is a real problem. Payday lenders should have to signpost those taking out payday loans to debt management services, a little like cigarette packets having to carry health warnings. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has set out some steps we should take to tackle the damage done by payday loans. Some lenders make as much as £1 million a week in profit, and he has called for a levy on the profits of payday loan companies to raise capital for alternative and affordable sources of credit such as credit unions. That could raise an additional £13 million, allowing credit unions to offer more financial support to people in need of credit. Perhaps a little of that sum could be used to help to develop a credit union for military personnel if the Government were so minded.

My right hon. Friend made clear his support for the banning of payday loan adverts during children’s TV programmes, which would be a very sensible step forward. Just as importantly, he set out how he would take steps to allow local councils to decide whether they want to place some premises in a separate planning category, giving communities more control over payday loan outlets in their high streets. Sadly, many local authorities and communities feel increasingly powerless to shape their town centres or do anything to halt the tide of payday loan firms. We want to change that.

I understand that there is cross-party support for a payday loan charter setting out what effective regulation of payday lenders and high-cost credit might look like. Such a charter could call for better affordability checks, a crackdown on advertising, and real-time data sharing within the industry so that lenders can check whether a borrower already has other plans. A military credit union could support such initiatives.

I welcome the written answer from the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison):

“Although commanding officers retain discretion to decide which advertisements are appropriate for their bases, guidance has been issued to each of the services that advertisements from payday loan companies should not be carried in their internal publications.”—[Official Report, 24 February 2014; Vol. 124, c. 63W.]

That guidance was given once it was brought to the MOD’s attention that payday loan companies were seeking to entice people to their products; soldiers and sailors in particular were being targeted rigorously using military publications. Payday loan companies that were particularly targeting our soldiers, sailors and Air Force personnel include Forces Loans, which claims to be the No. 1 lender to the military. Its loans are currently being advertised with an APR of 3,351%. Another company, QuickQuid, regularly advertises on the apparently popular militaryforums.co.uk with a rate of 1,362% APR.

A quick search online will find other examples of companies that have sponsored links to forces sites or to information that forces personnel can easily get access to: 1st Stop charges nearly 2,000% APR; Quids Today charges more than 2,000% APR; and The Money Shop charges nearly 3,000% APR—I could go on. A quick check of payday loans widely available online shows loans available at APRs ranging from nearly 900% to more than 7,000%. A military credit union could, over the medium to long term, provide a powerful competitive financial services offer to those who put their lives on the line for us, in ways that best meet their particular needs.

Let me underline the questions that I hope the Minister will answer today. Will he undertake a feasibility study into the establishment of a dedicated military credit union? Will he ensure that that feasibility study reports by the end of this Parliament? In the short term, other credit unions could help to offer such services now, with positive support from the Ministry of Defence. Will the Minister commit to meet ABCUL, credit unions such as Plane Saver and possibly me to discuss how that might happen?

Will the Minister commit now to the principle of payroll deduction to help any member of the armed forces or supporting staff to join a credit union more easily if they want to? Will he encourage military publications to carry adverts for credit unions that armed forces personnel can join? Will he support an explicit ban on payday lenders advertising in military bases? Will he consider discussing with other ministerial colleagues a requirement on high-cost lenders, such as payday lenders, to signpost their borrowers towards free debt management advice services?

Credit unions have a long history. They are increasingly building capacity and membership. They are a powerful demonstration of the values of co-operation: working with others to help oneself; giving equal voting rights and an equal say in the running of a business; and being committed to a fair distribution of any profits or surplus in the form of better, cheaper services. Sadly, no such clear, distinct service exists for our armed forces, and I gently encourage the Minister to back our campaign for a military credit union.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I had anticipated that a large number of other Members would be here to speak about this issue, because of its importance. I congratulate the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) on bringing the matter to the House. The Minister is in his place and has heard a lot of what he said, and I will be adding to those comments. Other Members might have contributions to make and the shadow Minister will be making a valuable contribution, too.

I am very pleased to come along today and give my wholehearted support to the hon. Gentleman for bringing the issue to the Chamber for our consideration. We are aware of such issues not only as elected representatives, but because of previous service. I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Territorial Army for 11-and-a-half years in the Royal Artillery: in the UDR, in a terrorism role—or an anti-terrorism role, I should say—and in the Royal Artillery in a role that had a more global and European impact. That is where my interest in the issue comes from.

I represent Strangford, which is renowned for service in Her Majesty’s armed forces. The largest town in my constituency, Newtownards, is to host the Armed Forces day in Northern Ireland this year. I have no doubt that the streets will be thronged to capacity with people coming along to express the high esteem in which they hold service personnel and veterans. As I meet each of those veterans and personnel, I will do so with the knowledge that I support them in every way that I can. This debate is a way of doing just that. It reflects some constituency issues that I have had over the past four years as a Member of Parliament, and before that, as a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I seek to help the personnel’s families at home while they are serving and when they return home from their service. Some return home with not only physical and emotional but financial issues, as the hon. Gentleman highlighted.

What the hon. Gentleman presented was about support for service personnel and their families. I completely agree that the fluctuation of pay of those serving due to the different rates depending on where they are serving means that some payday lenders can take advantage of our armed forces personnel. Serving personnel get an allowance on active duty, but some find it hard to get by without the top-up cash. Sometimes, there is a change of financial circumstances. Will the Minister indicate what help is given to service personnel when it comes to managing money and their wages better? I believe that there is some, but sometimes it takes more than a bit of paper; it takes a one-to-one, and if that is possible, has it been done?

A regular soldier’s wage is £17,767, and when they become used to the uplift in cash, it takes time to go back to a smaller budget. I am privileged to be in the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which has given me a chance to visit army camps. Catterick is one that sticks in my mind because it offers accommodation to soldiers who are single and have no families or dependants. The officers told me that many of those young men in uniform perhaps have a level of cash that they did not have before, and they very quickly spend it and frequently run into debt. Will the Minister say what help is given directly to service personnel to ensure that they manage their money and wages much better?

I have spoken in this place numerous times about the difficulties with payday loans, as have others. We are all aware of the story in the press in the past week or two about the lady who borrowed £500 and suddenly found, before it was all finished, that she owed £120,000. That is an extreme example, but none the less, it indicates the serious problems that people can have when they get into borrowing from payday companies. I have spoken about the number of people who come into my office seeking help to get themselves back on an even keel due to the high interest of these loans. We are fortunate to have debt advice organisations such as Citizens Advice, Debt Action, and Christians Against Poverty, just to think of three in my constituency that deliver specific help to those who need it most. Increasing numbers of ex-Army personnel come with their families to seek help for their circumstances. They are real issues and they show why today’s debate is so important.

Many people are seeking to get themselves back on an even keel, due to the high interest of the loans, as they try to manage their money in relation to their wives and children and to their new circumstances perhaps of not being in the Army. It is a vicious circle that is so difficult to get out of. Citizens Advice has said that it is dealing with an increasing number of cases where military personnel and their families had run into financial problems after taking out high-cost payday loans. Research by the Royal British Legion has found that about a third of veterans experience financial difficulties, including almost half of those who are recently injured. That is, again, a pointer to how important the issue is. We all greatly respect those soldiers who serve and those who come back injured, either emotionally or physically. It is a terrible tragedy when half of the recently injured and a third of veterans, as the Royal British Legion found, experience financial difficulties and need help, which lead many of them into very high levels of debt.

I place on record my thanks to the organisations that work in my area. Obviously, I thank the Royal British Legion first, but I also thank the Army Benevolent Fund, to which the hon. Member for Harrow West referred, and the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association, which does great work with serving personnel or ex-personnel and their families. I hold a coffee morning once a year for SSAFA—it is basically coffee, tea and sticky buns—and last year we were very pleased because people from the town gave £4,500. That immense contribution was an example of the good that people can do and of their generosity. We never fail to be overwhelmed by people’s generosity. That contribution was an indication of the good that the people of Newtownards and district can do.

Last year, the Royal British Legion’s benefits and money advice service—this information is from the Royal British Legion—helped 11,000 Army personnel. That was in its second year. It was an increase of 8,600 on its first year. That clearly shows the magnitude of this issue and the need to respond. It is clear that there is an issue. It is equally clear that we have a role to play in providing the solution. The proposals were outlined by the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that the Minister, in his response, will be able to give us some indication of the importance of that and how he will address the issue.

At home, I always encourage people to use their local credit union, which allows money to be borrowed only when money has been saved. That has helped many people to get loans at an affordable rate of interest. The fact that the American military run a successful version in Navy Federal shows that such a service would be of use to our personnel.

I want to touch on the options or solutions that are available. Like other MPs, I would say that when people come to see me with their problems, it is about solutions. It is not about the problem; it is about how we make the situation better, how we can help the people. I believe that we have a solution here today if the Minister is minded to give us the response that we seek.

Navy Federal is the largest credit union in America, with more than 4 million members. It has branches on every military base in the country. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) spoke to me last year when he had the chance to be in America and speak to some navy personnel. He was aware of the good work that they do. Army personnel and navy personnel were depending on payday loans and creditors, so Navy Federal moved in and ensured that there was a branch on every military base in the country. The payday loaners used to target the military bases to hook American sailors and soldiers with their high-cost financial services. However, legislation and the low-cost financial products that credit unions offer have led to the Navy Federal credit union having branches on every military base in the United States of America and offering a very direct and personal service to its members. It is greatly utilised by service personnel.

According to the Library debate pack, a meeting took place of the all-party group on credit unions last October. The Minister for the Armed Forces used that meeting to express the Government’s interest in exploring the idea of a service personnel credit union further, so perhaps the Minister today could tell us where we have advanced since October, whether we are any closer to having this type of scheme in place—I hope that we are—and, if not, whether we have a programme that will lead to that happening. Like the hon. Member for Harrow West and other hon. Members present, I genuinely believe that this proposal could be the catalyst for a scheme that can change things round and help our soldiers, sailors and Air Force personnel to manage their money better.

Abbie Shelton, policy and communications manager at ABCUL, said:

“Payroll deduction is an easy and convenient way for employees to get a savings habit and access affordable credit and we welcome any support for new partnerships which will help more people access credit unions in this way.”

I will not express a preference for any one building society. None the less, getting into the habit of saving is a good thing to do. If we do get into the habit of saving early and start to save regularly, that becomes a discipline in itself. Again, perhaps the Minister could comment on this issue in his response. The hon. Member for Harrow West focused greatly on payroll deduction, and I think that it is a tremendous idea, because it enables people to save directly. It is important that we all try to manage our money as best we can.

[Ian Paisley]

Does my hon. Friend agree that if such a scheme were introduced, the Government could make a forward calculation as to how much money could reasonably be expected and therefore underwrite the establishment of a military credit union for a period of five to 10 years to allow it to get established and thereby really give it the support that it needs to get off the ground?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that very constructive intervention. Yes, I do believe that what he describes could be done. Again, perhaps the Minister can give us some idea of how he sees that particular scheme working. If we have a prediction, if we have an idea of what we will have coming in over five to 10 years, we can start such a scheme. When I visited Catterick camp in September two years ago, that was one of the things that the officers told me they wanted to see happening. I fed that back to the MOD in questions and I would like to know whether it has been activated and where it is going.

The example of the Navy Federal credit union in the United States is powerful. It shows what can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way, or, in this case, where there is a will, there must be a way. It can be delivered. We have a duty of care to our service personnel to help to support their families and to ensure that their sacrifices in service are acknowledged at home, and this is one way of doing just that. I wholeheartedly support the proposal and offer my help in any way possible to see this legislation being made in the House. It is critical, it is important and it is needed urgently. Everyone here is of that opinion. I know that the pledge that I have made is something that the rest of my party, the Democratic Unionist party, at Westminster will also support.

We have talked about the issue. Now it is time for action to be taken, for our serving personnel to become saving personnel and for them and veterans to see yet another tangible sign of our appreciation of and support for those who put their safety, mental health and lives on the line in service to the Queen and this tremendous country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Monday 2nd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

As I believe my hon. and gallant Friend knows, the air ISTAR—intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance—optimisation study is looking at our defence requirements and capabilities in air-based ISTAR, including maritime patrol, to inform decisions as part of the strategic defence and security review in 2015. A range of options is being considered, including unmanned air systems for maritime surveillance. If he is available next week to go to the ExCel centre—rather than the O₂ centre which I mentioned earlier—for the Defence and Security Equipment International conference, I am sure that he will see some of those systems on display.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Have the Government taken the opportunity to thank the Americans for so thoroughly dumping on their oldest ally, the French, in favour of the long grass of the Congress when it comes to Syria?

[Mr Philip Hammond]

I think we have to be clear in these matters. The British Government can speak for what Britain will or will not do; other allies have to make their own decisions, and just as we have asked them to respect our political processes and constitutional norms, so we have to respect theirs as well.

Armed Forces Redundancies

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Francois]

I know that my hon. Friend takes a close interest in all matters military, not least because of Colchester garrison in his constituency, but I do not believe that we have been “two-faced”, as he put it. I do not accept that assertion, but if he wants to write to me with details of any particular case, I will of course look into them.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I am sure that, like me, the Minister is delighted by the safe return to our nation of His Royal Highness Prince Harry and his colleagues. Our nation is of course grateful for their service.

With regard to the Minister’s answers today, will he provide a briefing to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on this issue? The Committee has opened an investigation into how the military covenant and redundancies will impact on service personnel in Ulster.

[Mr Francois]

I am sure that the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the service of His Royal Highness in theatre in Afghanistan. Captain Wales, as I understand he prefers to be known in the Army, has done well for his country and his service, and we commend him for that.

On the hon. Gentleman’s specific question, I am aware of the military contribution that has come from Northern Ireland down the years, and I hope to visit Northern Ireland in the next few months. With regard to my appearing before the Select Committee, I shall take advice on the matter but, in principle, if it asks me to come, I will be there.

Military Covenant

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

This has been a wonderful debate. We have seen a very good response from across the Chamber, and it has provided people from every arc and part of this kingdom with an opportunity to come here and voice the issues that are of concern to them about veterans and their needs, and about how we, as a Parliament and as a nation, should treat them. It really has been a tribute to our armed service personnel. I hope I speak for everyone when I say that it is Parliament expressing the high esteem in which we hold our veterans and our armed service personnel.

Soldiers have been ambassadors for Northern Ireland. As one Member mentioned, when those soldiers who came from the mainland and served in Northern Ireland got to meet the ordinary folk—the people who supported them, the people who welcomed them, the people who knew that they were there to protect their life and their property—they became ambassadors for those people when they returned home to their families. Likewise, soldiers who have travelled from Northern Ireland, who have been recruited in Ulster and worked for the British Army overseas, have been ambassadors for our country, and have told great things about it. Of course, as my colleague and hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has just recited, many have paid the ultimate sacrifice for being the ambassadors of our nation. It is for that reason that we should do all that we can as a Parliament to help them, and to assist their families, and to ensure that the military covenant is honoured not just in spirit but in the letter of the law in every part of the United Kingdom, not just some parts of it.

When my colleague and right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) opened the debate, he said how such service has affected not just people in the United Kingdom but people in the Republic of the Ireland. We welcome the efforts that were made by the then Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, to establish a memorial garden to the fallen victims of world war one who had volunteered to fight for Crown and country and should have been honoured but were treated so disgracefully.

But what gets me is the fact that before this debate, we had a previous debate, with pious tones about leadership, about what we should do for our country, how we should stand up and be together; and as soon as the debate on the military covenant started, I was caught in the breeze as the three SDLP Members were hurtling out of the door so fast they nearly took the hinges off it. I think that is a disgrace. I think they should have been here, and they should have debated this issue and felt comfortable debating this issue. The fact that they made themselves absent makes it all the worse for them, because they have let down many people in Northern Ireland tonight, whom they should have been speaking for and should have been supporting.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley rightly indicated that section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is a great impediment to many of the proposals that we seek to introduce, especially in housing. I would like it if, when a former soldier presents himself or herself to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, he or she would automatically get 200 or 300 points on the list; in other words, they could choose where to live. They will never be able to live in certain parts of Ulster, so they should have the advantage of being given extra points right away to be housed. They do not get that; we need that sorted out. I know that the Minister is listening to that, because we have spoken about it before, and it is crucial.

In addition, the children of a former soldier should be able to get into the right primary school, where the parents know they will be safe. If a person has a roof over their head, and feels that their children are safe and free from fear, that person will be a better person in society. We need to do all we can to bring that about.

I was delighted by the comments by the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). We will give him room, between now and, I think, 12 December, when we meet the Prime Minister, to iron out some of the issues, because he is right: not everyone does support the agenda that we have set before the House tonight. Let us use the time, so that when we get to 12 December we have an agenda that is not only agreed but can be taken forward and implemented. I hope that we can do so.

The Minister mentioned the 170 Victoria Crosses awarded to Irishmen in the service of our country. One hailed from my constituency—Robert Quigg, from Bushmills. He was a brave and gallant man—a shepherd—who laid his life on the line during the battle of the Somme and rescued 16 people, I believe, from no man’s land close to enemy lines. What a gallant soldier and what an inspiration to local people in the community, where he is still hailed with wonder.

The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) talked about how the Green Howards are being disbanded. He is right to question and challenge that decision, as was the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), who highlighted the difficulty for veterans in Northern Ireland who have to live next door to people who would previously have had them on their hit list. He is right to say that, very soon, a wave of such cases will come before us which we as a nation will have to deal with, and deal with appropriately.

The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), with his lovely Welsh lilt, as usual entertained the House with everything from an apt reference to David Lloyd George’s speech after the war about the “broken men” to the project he is launching on banking services. I think that is a great idea, and we will watch with interest to see whether there are components that we can pick up and run with, not only in Ulster but in other places, I am sure. The military covenant should be something that emboldens people to be creative and to find opportunities to deliver other services.

I will leave the right hon. Gentleman to his dispute with the former Minister, but I think we all agree that we want more money in the system for our veterans. On that point, the Defence Minister reassured us in an intervention that the data protection and patient consent issue is now nearly sorted out. That is really good progress, because I know that that issue has caused some angst across the House.

I pay tribute to all the right hon. and hon. Members who took the time to come to this House this evening to speak about a subject of national importance, which we are proud to have put on the Order Paper so that our national Parliament could debate it. I congratulate the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), a colleague of mine on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, on his powerful speech. He has shown a keen interest in our servicemen in Northern Ireland.

I end by echoing the words of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), who from the Dispatch Box said that no part of the United Kingdom is untouched by the effects of this issue. She got it in one: no part of this kingdom is untouched, whether it be Ulster, Scotland, Wales or the mainland of England. We are not untouched and we must make sure that we respond with valour, with decency and with honour for those people we hold in such high esteem.

Mental Health (Veterans)

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I, too, add my congratulations to the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on securing this important debate today. Raising the profile of the matter will in itself do much to enhance public recognition of the issue, and she spoke passionately and poignantly about the need to achieve that.

The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) made an excellent point in his comments, which is that we must cast the net a lot wider than the immediate conflicts that we are aware of in Iraq and Afghanistan. It will not be unusual for Members to hear me speak about what has happened in Northern Ireland. We have a walking community of forgotten heroes who have served the nation well and with gallantry, from the Ulster Defence Regiment, the Royal Irish Regiment, the British regular Army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Only today, as the situation has normalised, has there been a true opening and unfolding of the trauma and devastation in the lives of individuals who gave service to this nation, and the effect that the conflict had on their families. Families lived with service personnel who not only served our country but lived within the community that they were serving—it was a double impact. It is only now, in this new Northern Ireland, in a more peaceful society, that that is starting to unravel and unfold. We must ensure, as we have started to peel back the issue and look at what could be an appalling vista, that we as a country recognise that we have a responsibility to address the concerns that we are starting to discover.

Several former soldiers, from the Ulster Defence Regiment in particular, visited me in my constituency office. They had stopped serving in the late ’80s and early ’90s, and yet they were still talking about things that they saw that are impacting their lives now. They look back and recognise that the awful pictures that flash in their memory have had an impact on how they have lived their lives in the past 20 years, and on members of their community and family.

[Mr Gray]

What the hon. Gentleman is saying with great passion brings to mind an episode yesterday. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) was entertaining on the Terrace of the House of Commons one of the widows from the outrage of Ballykelly all those years ago, when 20-odd souls were killed in a pub. My hon. Friend was reminiscing about how he cradled his lance corporal in his arms. His lance corporal had lost all four limbs before he died. What sort of effect does that have, not on my hon. Friend—I am glad to say—who is remarkably well-balanced, but on any less well-balanced soldier? What possible effect will that have on the rest of their lives?

[Ian Paisley]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. I also had a constituent who visited me about this problem. He was a big, strong, tough frame of a man, but he was like a quivering autumn leaf when he started to tell me about what he had seen and what he remembered. Indeed, his constant memory was the sound of the scrape, scrape, scrape of the shovel that he had used to put his comrades and colleagues into a waste disposal bag after an outrage by the Provisional IRA. It is a burning memory that he will never forget and that woke him in the dead of night, leaving him soaked in sweat and crying out in fear, and yet it is a memory that he has had to bottle up and carry with him.

As a nation, we must take responsibility and recognise that there are things that can be done for these people we are talking about. They are not hopeless people; they are people whom we can actually give hope to, if, as the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles said, we first help to remove the stigma, and help people to recognise that there is help available and that they will not be stigmatised by going for that help. In fact, that help will only be of benefit to this community, this nation and indeed the NHS, which will have fewer problems to deal with as the years go on.

I hope that the passionate words that the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles put to this House this morning will be recognised and that we also recognise that post-traumatic stress disorder is not only about the immediate battles that we are aware of today but about the long-term problems that our country faces. More than 100,000 gallant soldiers from our nation passed through Northern Ireland in service and we are just starting to scrape the surface of this issue when we recognise that, 20 or 30 years after the conflict ends, there could be people who will come forward to say, “I have a problem because of what I saw, because of what I witnessed and because of what I went through as a serving personnel officer in Northern Ireland.” We must ensure that that issue is properly recognised.

The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles spoke about the capacity to take on board the cases that will come forward. I want to see that capacity extended, to ensure that the needs of Northern Ireland and of the soldiers there are also taken on board. The Big Lottery Fund money—the £35 million—that has been brought to our attention today will be a welcome spend and of course it must include spending on people who served in Northern Ireland under Operation Banner, to ensure that their issues are properly addressed.

I want to make a final point about the issue of stigma. We need a public champion who can be identified with this issue and whose association with it will give a boost and encouragement to those soldiers who are sitting at home, and perhaps staring into an empty glass, contemplating self-harm or having a fight with their children or other family members. That public champion will give those soldiers the ability to say, “There is someone who can help me; there is an organisation addressing what has affected me, and I can now see that I have someone to shoulder this burden and someone who can be a help or a crutch”, at the most important time—when they are at their most vulnerable. I hope that that public champion can be identified.

In addition, I love the idea of a GI Bill or something similar for the UK. There would be so much opportunity with such a Bill that we could build on, and I think that we could do things even better than they have been done in the US because this is a nation of people who come up with even better ideas than people in other nations do. We could learn from what has been done in the United States and come up with something really tremendous. I hope that this debate itself acts as a springboard and is a very hopeful and positive start to something that we can take great pride in.

Mull of Kintyre Review

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

This may well be a modern version of “The Winslow Boy”. It is not the size of the injustice that matters, but the fact that it is an injustice. I commend Lord Chalfont for what he did on this matter, just as I thank many colleagues in the other place who have done so much to keep this case alive.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I would like to add my thanks to the Secretary of State for overturning in such a contrite and decent way what was a personal slight on the lives of two pilots and a slight on the entire system. He mentioned in his statement that the Ministry of Defence should reconsider its transport arrangements for senior intelligence personnel. We lost 10 gallant officers that evening on the Mull of Kintyre who could have changed the face of the troubles, and indeed shortened the troubles by up to 10 years. That human intelligence source was lost. That must not happen again because of travel arrangements. The Secretary of State is reconsidering the policy. Can he assure us that it will be changed forthwith?

[Dr Fox]

I have made it very clear that I accept the recommendation and that change will follow. We will review all current procedures. There is no doubt that that procedure was dangerous and wrong, to the detriment of this country’s security. We saw a similar phenomenon recently with the Polish Government. It does not make sense for any country to allow that amount of its national investment to be in any one vehicle, be it on the ground or in the air.

Support for UK Armed Forces and Veterans

Ian Paisley Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Donaldson]

Certainly, we and other hon. Members on both sides of the House want the military covenant to have a firm legal basis, so that all service personnel, their families and veterans are clear about their entitlement and so that it is protected by the law of the land. That is what we are seeking to achieve.

In addition, the resourcing of the covenant and putting in place the support services needed to deliver the commitments set out in the covenant are equally important. That should include adequate support for bereaved families, adequate treatment and care for injured service personnel, adequate welfare provision for the families of service personnel and, crucially, continuing care and support for veterans—those who have served this country so well in the past. I also include the need to ensure that personnel who are transitioning to civilian life at the end of their service are properly supported. That is a key element. Indeed, in the current context of redundancies, it is important that those matters are handled properly and sensitively. I welcome the commitments that the Secretary of State for Defence has given previously in the House to achieving those objectives.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

We must emphasise the fact that we welcome what the Minister said in the House yesterday, as reported at column 309 of the Official Report, when he indicated that he would allow discussions between us and the chiefs of staff to ensure that the regional representatives can make a good case for those soldiers who will face redundancy and for those who will not. We welcome the opportunity to have those discussions at some length.

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and endorse what he says.

We hear much about the big society. I warmly applaud the work of the military-linked charities, such as the Royal British Legion, which we have already mentioned, Help for Heroes, the Army Benevolent Fund, or the Soldiers Charity as it is known now, and Combat Stress—to name just a few of those that do some excellent work—and it is important that the military covenant seeks to bridge the gap between what the Government can provide and what the third sector can provide. There is an opportunity to show the big society at work, helping our armed forces and our veterans, and I hope that the Government will continue their discussions with those charities and others who work with services personnel and veterans, to ensure that a joined-up approach is taken.

Innovative thinking is also needed. I want to refer to a project that has considerable merit: the proposal that HMS Ark Royal should be brought to the Thames, close to London City airport, across from the dome and close to where the Olympics will take place next year, to provide accommodation for those who have served, perhaps through Homes 4 Heroes, and work for veterans. That is about the third sector joining up with the Government and using part of our military heritage to deliver something that is of benefit not just to the military community, but to the wider community in that part of London.

We must close the gap between the third sector, represented by the military charities, and what the Government can do, especially given the increasing numbers of wounded personnel returning to society. That figure will undoubtedly be compounded by a large number of redundant military personnel who will need to resettle in the community. Projects such as the Army recovery centres and the proposal to bring the Ark Royal to London are examples of the initiatives that we would like the Ministry of Defence to develop with the service charities. I am sure that the Secretary of State will look with interest at the proposal for the Ark Royal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Fox]

My hon. Friend makes a useful point, which I shall come to in a moment.

The wide range of welfare support for families is being expanded. As set out in the defence and security review, the Ministry of Defence is starting work on developing options for a new employment model. Its aim is to provide an overall package, including career structure, pay, allowances and accommodation policies, that offers greater domestic stability, helping spouses to pursue their own careers and supporting children’s education, while still allowing for mobility when it is essential to defence requirements.

We would dearly like to do more, for example on improving service family accommodation, which my hon. Friend mentions and we know to be one of the greatest concerns to service families. About £61.6 million has been allocated in the current financial year for the upgrade of, and the improvement programmes for, service accommodation. That will include upgrading some 800 service family homes to the top standard, with a further 4,000 properties benefiting from other improvements such as new kitchens, bathrooms, double glazing and so on.

It would be dishonest of me, however, if I were not to say that we must recognise that we cannot go as far or as fast as we would like to, given the economic situation that we have inherited, but we can and will do what we can, when we can.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the Secretary of State for giving way on the important issue of housing. On a related issue, service personnel ultimately could be made redundant and return to the private sector, putting pressure on the private sector housing market. People might then want to get on to the Housing Executive’s list in Northern Ireland. Could some effort be made to ensure that former Army personnel are entitled to additional points, so that they can obtain public housing? It is crucial to ensure that our military personnel are not turned down or moved down the list when they should be entitled to public housing.

[Dr Fox]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very compelling point, with which I have some strong personal sympathy. I shall take the issue back and have it looked at on a cross-government basis to see whether it is indeed possible to make the general change that he mentions. If there is a specific problem relating to Northern Ireland, I am very willing to talk to Members about it to see whether there needs to be anything specific to Northern Ireland in any changes that might be made. He makes a good, valid and reasonable point that will probably get fairly widespread support across the country as a whole.

Another part of the UK’s defence capability, and thus the armed forces community, is our reserve forces. The Ministry of Defence is responsible for ensuring that reservists are treated fairly and with respect, and that they are valued. In the drafting of the armed forces covenant, reserves have been considered equally alongside regulars. That will set the tone for Government policy aimed at improving the support available for serving and former members of the armed forces, and the families who carry so much of the burden, especially, as we remember today, in the event of injury or death.

Rebuilding the military covenant is not just a matter for the Ministry of Defence. Supporting the men and women of our armed forces, during and after their service, is very much the business of the whole Government—and indeed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) said, of the whole of our society. The measures that I have described show how my colleagues the Secretaries of State for Health, for Education and for Business, Innovation and Skills—to name but three—are fully engaged in this wider endeavour. The devolved Administrations, local authorities, and even individual GPs all have an important role to play. The public sector does not do all the work; the service and ex-service charities are, rightly, also part of that network of support that the former service person has a right to expect.

We need to ensure that progress is made year on year. That is why we have brought forward measures in the Armed Forces Bill requiring the Defence Secretary to present an armed forces covenant report to Parliament every year. I hope to deliver the first of those reports in the autumn. It will not simply be about the relationship between the Government and the armed forces but, as I have set out, a wider picture of how the covenant is being respected across the whole of our society, including, as has been pointed out in this debate already, the charitable sector, which has a role to play. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) asked about that specific element. We have decided that a tri-service covenant should be developed along with the armed forces, the charitable sector and interested parties, including veterans, and that the Secretary of State will be answerable for how that is put into practice.

There is a genuine debate to be had about other ways of doing this, and it is fair that we consider those today. Some believe that we should have definable rights, enshrined in law; if so, they should make that clear. However, when rights are defined in law, they become justiciable. There are potentially complex and expensive legal implications for that, right up to interpretations by the European Court; Members would not expect me to go into private grief on that particular subject. If one were to apply rights in law, one would need to consider, given that the military covenant is not delivered only by Government, the implications for the charitable sector in terms of its legal obligations for delivery.

It is a complex argument, and there are perfectly reasonable points of view to be expressed on either side. The Government have decided that the best way to ensure that this is recognised in law is to develop the tri-service covenant and for the Secretary of State to make a statement so that Parliament as a whole can assess how it is being delivered. Ultimately, although we in this House will have a lot of debate about process, what matters is outcome and whether service personnel and veterans are getting an improvement in what society as a whole has promised to deliver, and wants to deliver, to them.

I welcome the support in this House for members of the armed forces community. That is why the Government support this motion, just as I hope the House supports the positive measures we are taking. The coalition Government will continue to rebuild the armed forces covenant. I wish we could go faster, but we will go as fast as we can.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I take that point on board, but the best thing to do would be to focus fundraising efforts on the existing charities. The Royal Navy is rationalising its smaller charities. That is not being done to denigrate their work, because some of them do key specific work, but it is important that there is better co-ordination between them.

[Ian Paisley]

I believe that there are something like 2,000 such charities, many of which are doing an excellent job, and that they are issue-specific and will fade out. There is a strong case to be made for co-ordinating and consolidating their work.

[Mr Jones]

I believe the Confederation of British Service and Ex-service Organisations is working with the Veterans Minister to consider how we can get better co-ordination between those charities, which will be very important, especially when the clientele of some of the smaller charities pass away over the next few years. I am thinking, for example, of the Association of Wrens, which I believe has an end-date by which it will wind itself up and merge with other naval service charities. I put on record again my thanks to the individuals involved in such charities.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley mentioned the covenant, which it is important to consider. The previous Government were quite clear in our Command Paper about where our work on that would go next, and the Green Paper that I produced in 2008 considered ways of embedding in law the covenant and other matters covered in the Command Paper. I am sad that the Government are not following through on that work, and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the Prime Minister’s commitment on the deck of the Ark Royal is in sharp contrast with what has happened in practice.

The opportunity provided by the Armed Forces Bill is being missed, because the covenant is not being enshrined in law. Members have mentioned the Royal British Legion, which clearly feels let down. It saddened me that when I tabled an amendment to the Bill in Committee a few weeks ago, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats voted against it. That was a missed opportunity, and we need to revisit the matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I am aware of that, and I know that other local authorities including Wigan have changed their housing policies to do exactly the same thing. The Prime Minister made a clear commitment to enshrining that in law, as the quotation that we have heard this afternoon shows. The Armed Forces Bill does not do that, and if the Government are rethinking ways of doing it, they will certainly have the Opposition’s support and assistance.

[Ian Paisley]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, and I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support for it. There is a strong case to be made that it is a national issue. When a soldier comes out of the Army, they should be able to settle in public housing somewhere with their family and expect something in return for the service that they have given this nation. It is a very small ask, and we should insist on it.

[Mr Jones]

I totally agree. The danger with the system outlined in the Bill is that the Secretary of State will produce a report without any independent input. As I said in Committee, I do not question for one minute the Secretary of State’s integrity or his intention to ensure that everything that should be in the report is in it, but a future Secretary of State could decide that certain matters should not be. That is a missed opportunity, and I hope that when the Bill goes to the other place it will be amended to ensure that the covenant is enshrined in law.