Gibraltar and Spain

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Jack Lopresti]

I agree completely. The fact is that Spain— a NATO and European ally—is so consistently and flagrantly breaking the law that it is astonishing. Spain’s ban on NATO forces moving between Gibraltar and Spain, overfly rights and travel between ports is quite simply to the detriment of western security. The fact that the Spanish will not allow RAF aircraft to overfly Spanish airspace on their way to and from Gibraltar results, I understand from the last speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) in the House on the matter, in a cost to the British taxpayer of an additional £5,000 to £10,000 for each flight. Our military resources are finite. Spain seems to feel it acceptable to reduce NATO’s defensive capacity by causing totally unnecessary extra costs, yet we are bound by article 5 of the NATO Washington treaty to expend British “blood and treasure” if Spain ever finds itself under attack.

At the same time, Spain continues to allow Russian naval vessels to refuel at its territory of Ceuta. The press reported that a state-of-the-art submarine had a three-day visit to the port of Ceuta in August this year. It was allowed to take on fuel and water while its crew enjoyed shore leave and Ceuta’s amenities. It is believed that the Russian submarine was headed for the naval base at Sebastopol, although the Russian military denied that. This is at a time when NATO insists that the alliance has suspended all practical co-operation with Russia. It seems Spain organised that with Russia directly against NATO’s and Europe’s position on Russia. Will the Minister explain how that is acceptable and allowed to continue?

Spain seems to be trying to wage some sort of economic warfare on Gibraltar with the ongoing issue of border delays. As the Foreign Affairs Committee report last year made clear, much of the evidence against the border delays came from Spanish workers who commute into Gibraltar on a daily basis. That is still a major problem, but Madrid is not being successful. Gibraltar is a fantastic economic success story, with impressive economic growth. Its GDP for 2013-14 increased by more than 12% in nominal terms, and I understand that forecasts for 2014-15 show a further 10.3% increase—a higher GDP per capita, which is a measure of living standards, than the UK and Spain as a whole, and greatly higher per head than its neighbours in Andalucia. GDP per capita for Gibraltar is forecast to be £50,941 in 2014-15, a long way above that of Andalucia, where GDP per capita was £13,300 in 2014, and higher even than Madrid’s, which was £25,000 per capita in 2014. It is unsurprising that up to 10,000 Spaniards a day cross the border to work in Gibraltar.

The Chief Minister said this week in London that the OECD has confirmed that in terms of financial regulation, Gibraltar is alongside Britain, Germany and the US as the best in the world. Spain’s oft-used propaganda insinuating the opposite about Gibraltarian business has been completely discredited.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He talks about economic warfare. Would he agree that it is actually in the Spanish Government’s and the Spanish people’s interest to come to an accommodation, accepting the people of Gibraltar’s right to be there? Economically, they could then thrive, rather than attempt to marginalise the people of Gibraltar, penalising the thousands of Spanish workers who depend on Gibraltar for their livelihoods.

[Jack Lopresti]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This situation penalises Spain’s own people and damages its own economic prospects and success for the future. It is completely bizarre that Spain should behave in this fashion.

I turn to the matter of the Royal Navy. The two Royal Navy ships in Gibraltar are more than 20 years old and are, I understand, not the best modern option. The Government of Gibraltar have indicated that they would finance another Royal Navy vessel. Does the Minister think we should accept that offer? Regardless of that fact, the British Government should significantly increase their naval presence in the straits. That would send the clearest possible signal to Spain that we are absolutely serious about defending our strategic interests in Gibraltar and our people there.

As history has proven countless times, weakness is provocative. We should make the rules of engagement for our naval vessels more robust for clarity and to act as a deterrent. I fear there will be a tragedy sooner or later as a result of the aggressive, illegal Spanish incursions, with lives lost, if we are not clear about how serious we are.

Will the Minister tell us what the rules of engagement are for our forces operating around Gibraltar? We can draw our own conclusions about the fact that the Spanish do not harass or get too close to US navy vessels operating around Gibraltar. I would like to know how many times the British Government have protested to Spain about its hostile and illegal actions with regard to the British sovereign territory of Gibraltar. I know that since 2011, the Spanish ambassador to the Court of St James has been summoned at least five times. That puts Spain in the same category as North Korea and Syria—a completely ridiculous situation.

If the Spanish Government cannot start treating their NATO and European Union ally correctly, what can the British Government do next—recall our ambassador to Spain? Send its ambassador back? Spain’s position on Gibraltar is as if we did not accept the treaty between the US and the UK that recognised the outcome of the US war of independence. Gibraltar has been British for longer than the US has been a nation. It is time for the Spanish Government to stop using Gibraltar to mask their own problems and inadequacies and start behaving like a true NATO and European ally, with all the positive benefits that would bring for Gibraltar and the Spanish people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I congratulate the hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) on this very important and timely debate on the future of Gibraltar.

I had the honour of attending the national day celebrations in Gibraltar very recently, on 10 September—a day when Gibraltar is awash with red and white and when people express their right to self-determination. It is a small nation of 29,000 people, but as we have heard from other hon. Members, their number is swelled on a daily basis by a huge intake of the Spanish people who work there.

I had the pleasure of speaking both with natives of Gibraltar and with Spanish people that day, and they are a friendly mix; they get on well. I would therefore like to underline the point made earlier. This is not a point of difference; the tensions do not exist between the Spanish people and the people of Gibraltar. The tensions exist because of the actions of the Spanish Government and, of course, the reaction or lack of reaction from the UK Government. It is important that we bear that in mind.

The people of Gibraltar live in a small nation bordered by a larger nation, a larger neighbour, but it still manages to be efficient, thriving, friendly and, as we have heard, an economic magnet—a very successful small nation. Despite the problems and constraints caused by its larger neighbour, it is able to contribute and work perfectly efficiently and well under its own steam. The people of Gibraltar have the right to continue to express their need for, and their absolute right to, self-determination. People who live there must be absolutely safe and able to conduct their business. The incursions into Gibraltar’s territorial waters, the problems that it has had to put up with and the manufactured situations that have been set up to put it under what can only be described as intimidation are not acceptable, and no small nation should find themselves in such a position.

We heard from the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) about the attempt to undermine the economic position of Gibraltar, and that is not acceptable either. Gibraltar is a nation that can survive perfectly well on its own and that performs perfectly well on its own. It has had to put up with incursions into territorial waters and manufactured border delays where people have had to wait for hours and hours to cross the border. Gibraltar has experienced incursions, in violation of its aviation rights. In August there was an incident, as we have heard, involving the discharging of firearms in territorial waters, which put at risk not only people from Gibraltar but citizens of other nations who were present, including UK citizens. That is not acceptable behaviour, and nobody should have to put up with it.

The people of Gibraltar have made and continue to make Gibraltar. Gibraltar is a nation with a right—I have said this many times, but I am not afraid to repeat it—to self-determination and to control its own affairs, as a nation does. Its constitutional future should be determined by the people who live there, not by their neighbour. The Spanish Government say that Gibraltar has no right to self-determination.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

The hon. Gentleman is rightly outlining the right of the people of Gibraltar to self-determination. Does he agree that they, like others, have expressed that right at the ballot box, and that should be respected and adhered to?

[Drew Hendry]

We are the people who defend democracy, and the ballot box is always the way to secure the constitutional position of any nation. I would certainly agree with that. The right to make constitutional decisions at the ballot box is absolutely paramount. The Spanish Government have form on the matter; they have ignored the will of Catalonia as well as this issue in Gibraltar.

When I spoke to people in Gibraltar who had been subject to incidents such as those I have described—I am sure we will hear about them later—I found that they have real concerns and fears, not only about those incursions, but about what will happen in future. They are deeply concerned about the question of EU membership. The Prime Minister must confirm what he will do to uphold Gibraltar’s right to self-determination and stand by it regardless of the outcome of the EU referendum. It is also important for the UK Government to say clearly what actions they will take to support Gibraltarians’ ability to live their daily lives safely. When Their Majesties of Spain visit in 2016, that would be an opportunity to assure support for Gibraltar and its self-determination into the future.

Finally, the Prime Minister has told us that he wants to undertake treaty negotiations ahead of the EU referendum. Regardless of the outcome of the referendum, during those negotiations the Prime Minister needs to take into account the views and concerns of the people of Gibraltar on the single market and the free movement of goods and services, and to make sure that those rights are upheld for Gibraltar in future. The people of Gibraltar have stated their will, and they are extremely motivated and concerned. They have democratically expressed their desire for self-determination, and it is the duty of this House and UK Ministers to support them in progressing that aim.

Human Rights (Saudi Arabia)

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Stewart McDonald]

It is almost as though the hon. Gentleman can see my speech. I am about to go on to that very point, which he made so well.

When the Government response to the case of Raif Badawi was raised in the House of Lords, Baroness Anelay asked her fellow peers

“to recognise that the actions of the Saudi Government in these respects have the support of the vast majority of the Saudi population.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 June 2015; Vol. 762, c. 890.]

Will the Minister tell us exactly how the Baroness would know that? Did she, as Francis Wheen suggested in The Independent, commission Lord Ashcroft to conduct a poll of Mr Badawi’s Saudi compatriots to ask what they thought of the lashings and beheadings carried out by their Government? If the Minister were a Saudi national and had witnessed a flogging such as that which Mr Badawi and so many others have been through, how likely would he be to speak out against his own Government? I suggest that the Baroness needs to rethink her words rather urgently.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He is referring somewhat tongue in cheek to Lord Ashcroft and polls that might have been conducted in Saudi Arabia. Does he agree that if any such poll were to be contemplated, the prospects for those carrying out the poll would be similar to those of the person he is describing in the debate?

[Stewart McDonald]

It would probably be the most undemocratic poll ever conducted. We can say a lot about polls in this country, but they are at least honest ones.

[Mr Campbell]

For the most part.

[Stewart McDonald]

For the most part, yes.

Last week, at Foreign Office questions, I asked the Minister about two specific points. I hate to say this, but I received an answer to neither, so I want to press the questions now. First, I asked whether the Minister would instruct the United Kingdom ambassador in Riyadh to request a visit to the prison in which Mr Badawi is being held so that we might get a report on his mental and physical state and on the conditions in which he is being held. Will the Minister undertake to give such an assurance?

Secondly, will the Minister state without equivocation—there is plenty of precedent for this, although funnily enough not in Saudi Arabia—that Mr Badawi should be set free? He is a prisoner of conscience and he should not be in prison. Surely the Government agree with that. If so, will the Minister please state that in his response?

Last week in the main Chamber, the Minister sought to give me some kind of reassurance: he said that the Saudi supreme court was reviewing the case. The Minister is a reasonable man, so I am sure he does not seriously expect me or the House to find any reassurance in the fact that the same justice system that put Mr Badawi where he is today is now marking its own homework to determine whether he should still be in prison. The Saudi justice system is not a normal justice system and the Saudi Government are not a normal Government—and we should stop treating them as such. The Minister might be willing to turn a blind eye, but he cannot expect us to ignore the crimes and brutal human rights abuses of which the Saudi regime is guilty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, and will put on the record that it is not just hon. Ladies who are offended by that; hon. Gentlemen are equally offended, including me. The fact that women are second-class citizens in Saudi Arabia and suffer all the deprivations that they do annoys and angers me greatly. We are holding this debate on their behalf as well.

At the time of the raid on the Christian meeting that I mentioned, it was reported that it was the latest incident in a swingeing crackdown on minorities in Saudi Arabia by the country’s hard-line commission—wait for this one—for the promotion of virtue and prevention of vice. Have we ever heard the like—the use of such words to describe the deprivation and restriction of religious liberty? The 28 Christians who were arrested were said to have been worshipping at the home of an Indian national in the eastern city Khafji when the police entered the building and took them into custody. They have not been seen or heard from since, and human rights groups are concerned about their whereabouts.

I know this is short notice for the Minister, but I ask him for a response on the case of those 28 Christians. I doubt it will be possible for him to give one today, but perhaps at a point in the future he will give the House some idea of what is happening to those people, who seem to have disappeared into the ether of Saudi Arabia, as their whereabouts are unknown.

Nina Shea, director of the Washington-based Hudson Institute’s Centre for Religious Freedom, told foxnews.com:

“Saudi Arabia is continuing the religious cleansing that has always been its official policy…It is the only nation state in the world with the official policy of banning all churches. This is enforced even though there are over two million Christian foreign workers in that country. Those victimized are typically poor, from Asian and African countries with weak governments.”

If we want to sum the situation up, we can do so in five words—all in a day’s tyranny. That is the situation for Christian people, and in Saudi Arabia it is indeed all in a day’s tyranny.

Voice of the Persecuted has said that in March Saudi Arabia’s top Muslim cleric called for the destruction of all churches in the Arabian peninsula, after legislators next door in Kuwait moved to pass laws banning the construction of religious sites associated with Christianity. Arabic media have reported that, when speaking to a delegation in Kuwait, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah—my pronunciation of that was not bad going for an Ulster Scot—said the destruction of churches was absolutely necessary and is required by Islamic law. Where is the freedom and religious liberty for those practising Christianity?

Abdullah is considered to be the highest official of religious law in the Sunni Muslim kingdom. He also serves as the head of the supreme council of ulema, which is the council of Islamic scholars, and of the standing committee for scientific research and issuing of fatwas. According to Arabian Business, a news site, Osama al-Munawar, a Kuwaiti Member of Parliament, has announced a plan to submit a draft law calling for the removal of all churches in the country. Al-Munawar has since clarified that that law would apply only to new churches, and that old ones would be allowed to stay standing. If the churches are allowed to stay standing, give people the religious liberty to practise their religious beliefs.

These issues are very worrying when we consider how little it takes to break such strict laws. It seems clear that we must exert what influence we have with Saudi Arabia to ensure that those who want to practise Christianity can do so without fear. In his opening remarks, the hon. Member for Glasgow South referred to contracts we have with Saudi Arabia; I will come to that in a few minutes, but it is important to note that given our business and economic contacts with Saudi Arabia we should have discussions and make efforts on behalf of Christian minorities.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that in every context of commerce, including work by private businesses supported by our national Government, every opportunity should be taken to raise with the Government of Saudi Arabia matters such as the persecution of Christians and other minorities, and the persecution of women?

[Jim Shannon]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. As the Minister and others who were Members in the previous Parliament will know, back in 2013 the Democratic Unionist party took the opportunity of one of our Opposition day debates to raise the issue of the religious persecution of Christians on the Floor of the House. As a result of that debate, we hoped that Ministers in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office would use their influence wherever they could across the world when religious liberty, religious minorities and human rights were being abused by countries or by dictators. I wholeheartedly support what my hon. Friend said. We need our Government, and the Minister in particular, to take a more proactive stance.

Srebrenica Genocide (20th Anniversary)

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 7th July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) on securing this debate and I salute his leadership in Bosnia. Along with many others in the House, I am deeply impressed by what he did in his time in command. It would be hard not to be moved by the experiences he shared in his speech and by some of the things that have happened since. I thank him for that.

We remember those who were murdered in July 1995—more than 8,000 Bosniaks, mainly men and boys, in and around the town of Srebrenica during the Bosnian war. The killing was perpetrated by units of the Army of the Republika Srpska—the VRS—under the command of General Ratko Mladic. The former Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, described the mass murder as the worst crime on European soil since the second world war. That gives an idea of the magnitude and horror of what took place.

I am sure that we all remember the coverage from 1995—it would be hard not to—and, as we were reminded by the first speech, it was shocking in its intensity. I can vividly recall not being able to believe or understand the senseless genocide that was taking place. I was looking at the TV and thinking, “Is this happening, or is it unreal?” Yes, it was unreal, but it was happening in front of our modern society’s eyes.

The paramilitary unit from Serbia was known as the Scorpions. The hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) used biblical language to describe them as a lion looking for whom to devour. That is what they were doing. They could have called themselves other names, but they chose the Scorpions, and they were known for their evil, wicked depravity and murderous thoughts. Officially, they were part of the Serbian Interior Ministry until 1991, and they participated in the massacre, along with several hundred Greek volunteers.

In January, the conviction of five men from the former Yugoslavia was upheld, which was welcome news to all those who remember the sheer horror of these events. However, more than five men were involved, and more than enough time has now passed by this, the 20th anniversary, for action to have been taken. We all believe it is time that those involved—from inside and outside Serbia—were held accountable.

In 2004, in a unanimous ruling in the case of Prosecutor v. Krstic, the appeals chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, which is located in The Hague, ruled that the massacre of the enclave’s male inhabitants constituted genocide—a crime under international law. The evidence of the forcible transfer of between 25,000 and 30,000 Bosniak women, children and elderly people that accompanied the massacre was found to confirm the genocidal intent of the members of the VRS main staff who orchestrated the massacre and who need to be held accountable.

In 2005, in a message to the 10th anniversary commemoration of the genocide, the Secretary-General of the United Nations noted that, although blame lay first and foremost with those who planned and carried out the massacre and those who assisted and harboured them, the powers with the ability to respond had failed to do so adequately. He said that the UN had made serious errors of judgment and that the tragedy of Srebrenica would haunt its history forever, and that is clearly the case.

Serbia and Montenegro was cleared of direct responsibility for, or complicity in, the massacre, but it was found responsible for not doing enough to prevent it and for not prosecuting those responsible, in breach of the genocide convention. The preliminary list of people missing or killed in Srebrenica, which was compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons, contains 8,373 names. As of July 2012, 6,838 genocide victims had been identified through DNA analysis of body parts recovered from mass graves. As of July 2013, 6,066 victims had been buried at the memorial centre in Potocari. Almost 1,500 victims have still not been identified. Let me put that into perspective. As the hon. Member for Beckenham will know, approximately 3,000 people were killed over a 30-year terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland. In three days, almost three times that number were killed in Srebrenica.

There is a lesson that has been taught so many times, but that I fear we are not learning: we must take action before things reach this stage. An apology for a massacre is not enough. There must be a determination that we never allow these things to happen again. There must be not just words, but deeds. There is so much happening in the world that we need to act on, and it is my firm belief that action must be taken, lest our children stand in this place in 20 years’ time lamenting the fact that we allowed the actions of ISIS, among others, to happen. That is for another debate and another day, but it is not disrespectful to the memory of the men we are talking about to plead for us to learn from the inaction we saw and to take action when needed.

I was proud to be one of the hundreds of parliamentarians who signed the Remembering Srebrenica book of pledges, and I will be prouder still to be remembered as a parliamentarian, in a House of parliamentarians, who learned the lesson taught by atrocities and who honoured the memories of those who so senselessly lost their lives by doing all in my power to prevent a repeat of such atrocities.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend talks about learning lessons. Does he agree that those of us who have lost loved ones in more normal circumstances cannot even begin to understand the pain and anguish felt by those who, 20 years later, still do not have the remains of their loved ones and who cannot have a burial so that they can begin to grieve properly? We have seen that in Northern Ireland over 40 years, but the scale in this case is unimaginable, and we need to do what we can to resolve the issue.

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is impossible to gauge the unfathomable enormity of what took place. In Northern Ireland, people disappeared, and some of the bodies have not been accounted for. We feel for their families. However, if we magnify that a thousandfold, we get a sense of what these things mean in Bosnia.

In conclusion and as this important anniversary approaches, I hope that all political leaders in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in the wider region, will focus not on the politics, but on the human tragedy of not just Srebrenica, but the war as a whole, and will take forward reconciliation with greater urgency. There can be no more fitting tribute to the innocent victims of war than that we remember each and every one of them today and that the Government do their best to make changes and to hold people to account. Twenty years after these events, we need to hold those responsible accountable. We all know, of course, that they will be held accountable in the next world and that they will have to come before a judgment seat to answer for what they have done, but I would like to see them get their just rewards in this world before they reach the next one.

Commonwealth Day

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he agree that now, or some time in the very near future, might be an appropriate time for the Irish Republic to consider returning to the Commonwealth? That might even offer the opportunity of a combined bid, between Northern Ireland and the Republic, for a future Commonwealth games.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I do not necessarily want to cause diplomatic concern by talking about the possibility of the Republic wishing to return to the Commonwealth, but I have raised that matter during my chairmanship with the Speaker of the Dáil. It seems to me to be a natural thing to do, but it is up to the people of the Republic to decide. They would be very welcome and they would seem natural partners among the 53 nations that are part of the Commonwealth.

I am pleased, having made three visits to Sri Lanka during my international chairmanship, to see that there has been a peaceful change of power in that country, which I think is a great testament to all concerned. It is still a country troubled by the awful battles that were fought, and not all the memory of that has been erased satisfactorily, but the fact that there has been a peaceful election is a step forward.

It would also be appropriate for us to acknowledge the life of Lee Kuan Yew, whose death has just occurred. I have some personal memories of him. As a precocious prospective parliamentary candidate, I was travelling through Singapore for the first time in 1968 and I dared to call on the Prime Minister’s residence. It was amazing to me that he was prepared to find time to meet me on that occasion. So began a relationship that continued over a number of years, and in 1972, when I returned to Singapore as a parliamentarian, I found myself summoned to supper with him and his wife. It was, in many ways, an intimidating occasion to be closeted so privately with people of such distinction and intellect. It made me extremely uncomfortable in my clumsy handling of chopsticks while maintaining, one hoped, a civilised and constructive conversation. Singapore is sometimes described as the Asian tiger, and in some respects that term might be applied to Lee Kuan Yew himself, for his personal vision, his dedication and his forcefulness—let us be honest about it—in ensuring that Singapore became the powerful city state that we now know it to be.

Russian Membership of the Council of Europe

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Chope]

The Council of Europe is different from the United Nations, and the statute spells out that it is separate from the United Nations. The Council of Europe covers only Europe—European values and principles. I would be concerned if the right hon. Gentleman wanted to be an apologist for the Russian Federation, although I do not believe that he does. Until now, cross-party concern has been expressed in the House about the behaviour of the Russian Federation. If we are prepared to take economic sanctions against the Russian Federation, why should we not take the sanctions that are available to us under the Council of Europe statute? The answer may be because certain other members of the Council of Europe are too frightened to want to join in, but my answer to them is that the United Kingdom has traditionally taken a lead in such things. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister, in his response to the debate, will say that we are taking a lead and explain what we will do.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He talks about engaging with people. Does he agree that we should encourage engagement with the sections of Russian society that have taken a stand against Putin, and that we should ensure that they have a voice not only in the Council of Europe but across the globe?

[Mr Chope]

I agree, but how best can we do that? That is a question of judgment. I have heard it said, for example, that we must keep Russia in the Council of Europe because if we do not, it will reinstate the death penalty. In fact, however, we can see from recent events that the Russian Government exercise an extrajudicial death penalty by murdering enemies of the state in the United Kingdom and elsewhere. Do we tolerate such behaviour because we are fearful that Russia might reintroduce a judicial death penalty instead of the extrajudicial death penalty that is currently handed out by the President?

The extent to which we should impose sanctions is an eternal dilemma. Just as public opinion in this country is influenced by international events, if we took a firmer line against Russia on its human rights record and its breaches of the rules of the Council of Europe, we would support those in Russia who are trying to fight against the system. I know from having had the privilege of talking to Bill Browder that he also believes that it is better to try to sanction the regime in Russia than to continue to indulge it.

Tamil People in Sri Lanka

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that salient point, on which we can all agree.

Since the end of the 25-year campaign, $3 billion has been spent on economic and infrastructural development in northern Sri Lanka. As Alan Keenan, the Sri Lanka project director at the International Crisis Group, noted, the situation in northern Sri Lanka has improved “in some ways”, but

“the government has made too much of large infrastructure and development projects, which it is able to show off to the international community, and not enough of the situation on the ground”—

as my hon. Friend said, and as we all adhere to and understand.

I remain extremely concerned about not just the discrimination against the Tamil people, which seems to be ongoing, but the risk of sexual violence to women—as the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) mentioned, and which is so important—and the persecution of Christians. There are concerns from some members of the Tamil community that the Government are undertaking a practice of “Sinhalisation” of the area. Many Sinhalese fled the north due to the atrocities being carried out by the Tamil Tigers during the civil war. Some have returned, and there are concerns about the number of Sinhalese coming to the area. Estimates have suggested that there are 150,000 Sinhalese soldiers in the Vanni.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend is outlining a litany of issues that need to be addressed, but does he agree that another matter is that almost 6,000 persons are still reported missing in the area? That needs to be addressed not just internally, but internationally.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend and colleague for that intervention. In Northern Ireland, we have experienced the disappeared, although in much smaller numbers, but every one of those people is still important. When the number is multiplied to 6,000 missing persons, the magnitude is incredible. This is a technical detail, but I wonder whether the Minister will address it as it is important. In Northern Ireland, we have been able to find some of the bodies of the deceased and have an expertise in doing that. Perhaps that expertise could be loaned in some way to Sri Lanka to enable the remains of the disappeared to be returned to their families, because that heartbreak is very real for every one of those 6,000 families.

At one soldier for approximately every five civilians, the ratio of soldiers to civilians is considered one of the highest in the world. Given the figures, it is unsurprising that people are concerned by the so-called Sinhalisation.

The conflict saw a large number of men and boys either killed or disappeared—a generation lost—and there are 89,000 war widows in north and east Sri Lanka alone. Given the high military presence in the country, there are concerns that those women are more vulnerable to sexual harassment and violence. Although the Sri Lankan military are held in high admiration in the south of the country, for many in the north, especially in former LTTE-controlled areas, the army is still the enemy.

That fear and dislike of the military are vindicated by very credible allegations of human rights violations, including rape and sexual and emotional abuse of women. Tamil women are also vulnerable to sexual violence, because they are often coerced into sexual relationships with Sinhalese soldiers, sometimes for the promise of marriage and sometimes for money. That continues to be a serious problem in Sri Lanka and, for many women, sexual harassment is simply accepted as a way of life, but that should not be the case. We need to change that mindset and we must do all that we can to help the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to stop rape and sexual assaults.

Another concern I must express, because this issue is very close to me, is the persecution of Christians in Sri Lanka. We must not let the opportunity to mention that issue today pass us by. Buddhists make up 70% of the population. That is followed by Hinduism at 12%, Islam at 8% and Christianity at 8%. In northern Sri Lanka, the majority of people are Hindu, but there is a large Christian population living there, too. The persecution of Christians has escalated in recent years, with the rise of militant Buddhist nationalist groups in Sri Lanka. More than 250 churches have been destroyed or damaged in sectarian violence. That is unacceptable, and that must be stated in this Chamber today.

Tibet

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Owen. I can do the maths. I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) on battling against his health to be here today for a long overdue and important debate. It is right that the House has an opportunity to express solidarity with Tibetans and to question the continued oppression in the Tibetan autonomous region and of Tibetans across the world at the hands of the Chinese. I cannot rival his Jewish-Buddhist perspective or the number of times he has met His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I have only had the opportunity to meet him twice. I have not been able to go to Tibet, but I have travelled to Dharamsala and met many members of the Tibetan community there and heard the appalling stories they have to tell us. At the outset, I pay tribute to the Tibet Society and in particular to Philippa Carrick. It does fantastic work in keeping the flame of hope lit and the flag flying for the Tibetan cause in this country and beyond. I declare an interest as an officer of the all-party group for Tibet. I welcome the Minister, who has shown a genuine interest in this cause in the past, and I am sure he will be listening carefully to what everyone has to say.

The hon. Member for Leeds North East rightly said that today was an appropriate day for the debate, as it is human rights day, but it is also 25 years since the Tiananmen Square massacre, which is another reminder of China’s inability to allow free speech and expression within its borders. I am particularly concerned—I will not go into the detail of all the cases that he articulated—that the situation has been getting worse over the past six years, since the Beijing Olympics. There have been severe security crackdowns and restrictions on freedom of expression, religion, movement and assembly. The climate within the Tibetan autonomous region can be likened to that of a military occupation. I do not think it alarmist to say that the Chinese Government have effectively created a climate of fear within Tibet. They strive to regulate virtually every aspect of public and private life in order to crush any form of dissent against Community party rule.

There has also been a dramatic expansion in the powers of China’s policing and military apparatus in Tibet. As the hon. Gentleman said, many Tibetans in exile report that they cannot talk to their families in Tibet on the phone because of the danger they might be put in through that contact.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman is outlining the deteriorating situation regarding Tibet and China, but does he agree that as a society and a Government, we have to analyse the benefits of the UK-China human rights dialogue to see whether it is productive? It would appear that it was productive in the past in trying to de-escalate tensions between the United Kingdom and China. Should we analyse its benefits for the future?

[Tim Loughton]

Of course dialogue is best, but dialogue needs to take place on both sides. Everyone with an interest in Tibet needs to be given the freedom to express themselves in a peaceful way, and the Tibetans just have not been given that privilege within their borders or in other parts of the world. The Chinese Government, with their tentacles even in this country, try to suppress people who plead the cause for freedom of expression and freedom of movement for the Tibetan people. We need to adopt the guise of a critical friend and be in dialogue with China. We have much to benefit from trade and engagement with China, but it does not serve that cause or the cause of democracy that we hold so dear in this place if we turn a blind eye to the blatant suppression of the rights of millions of people who happen to live in part of what is China. It serves no purpose for what we are here to do if we carry on regardless. As a critical friend, dialogue is everything, but remember that some people are put in prison for trying to exercise just that right.

I am concerned about the escalation of surveillance and the issuing of propaganda by the Chinese within Tibet. They sent thousands of Chinese officials to carry out surveillance and what they call “political education”, and to disseminate propaganda. The example of forming a “correct view of art” shows how China’s tentacles go into every element of Tibetan society. The Chinese authorities have deemed it a counter-terrorism drive and, under that guise, they have organised large-scale military drills and intensified border security, and are holding training exercises for troops on responding to self-immolations and dealing with problems in monasteries—despite the absence of violent insurgency in Tibet. All the protests we have seen are peaceful.

Yesterday, the all-party group had a briefing from someone who recently travelled to Tibet and was allowed in as a tourist. Some of the worrying accounts he gave us of everyday life for Tibetans in their country are worth recounting. He had a Tibetan driver with a Tibetan car. There are fantastic new roads across the Tibetan autonomous region. In my constituency, we would die for such roads and the lack of congestion. The speed limit for Tibetans is 40 kph. Their arrival and departure from certain towns is closely monitored to see whether they have exceeded the speed limit. They are prosecuted or under fear of prosecution if there is any minor infraction of that speed limit, yet someone with Chinese plates is allowed to go a bit faster, it would appear. Police checkpoints are littered liberally across those roads, in the middle of nowhere—for what purpose?

Huge urbanisation is going on in the Tibetan autonomous region and, worryingly, most of the new businesses springing up are Chinese-owned. All the road signs are in Chinese, with the Tibetan language version in a small font underneath. People are unlikely to get work with Chinese businesses unless they speak Chinese, even within Tibet. We saw photographs of drones surveying monasteries across Tibet in a rather sinister way. We saw security cameras disguised as prayer wheels within monasteries and towns. We saw what Lhasa has become: a much changed place, I am sure, from when the hon. Member for Leeds North East visited some eight and a half years ago. For what is a holy place for many Tibetans is a sprawling modern city with the ubiquitous cloud of pollution overhanging it, as we see in so many parts of China. The region is home to some 3 million Tibetans, but receives approximately 13 million Chinese visitors. There has been huge immigration of Han Chinese into Tibet, swamping the language and culture and trying to dilute Tibet’s history by sheer weight of numbers. It happens day in, day out, and Tibetans have to suffer this oppression with a depressed resignation that can be seen in the faces of the people in the photographs and film we were shown.

Surveillance happens not only in person, but online. Reprisals are likely following searches for subjects such as “democracy”, “the Dalai Lama” and “Tiananmen square”. State censorship and the suppression of free expression are widespread across China, but since the protests that broke out across Tibet in March 2008, the Chinese Government have strengthened attempts to impose an information black-out across Tibet. That it is an offence to display the Tibetan flag—even a digital image on a mobile phone—because it is deemed to be a separatist activity punishable with a prison sentence, shows just how paranoid the Chinese have become. Singing a song can lead to a jail sentence. People who were legitimately protesting online about abuses in the fur trade earlier this year have also ended up in jail. It is an outrage that people suffer persecution and torture in prison and are then released before they die so they are not deemed to have died from their injuries in jail.

This House has a duty to flag up the abuse suffered by one of the most peace-loving peoples I have ever come across. To liken the Dalai Lama to a terrorist is quite extraordinary when he has spent his life preaching peace and harmony between peoples around the globe. He stands for freedom of worship and of expression. The Tibetans’ struggle for their culture, language, heritage and soul is one we have a duty to do everything we can to support.

I will end on the chilling note that the suppression is not only happening in Tibet. The tentacles of the Chinese Government reach into other Governments and local authorities and within education establishments and universities. I am particularly worried about the Confucius institutes or cultural centres that are co-operating with universities across the world. They have discriminatory hiring practices and seek to impose censorship on topics such as human rights, the Tiananmen Square massacre and any dialogue about Tibet. We must seek out, expose and resist such censorship of our freedom to speak out. When I was a Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), who cannot be here today, and I were warned off meeting the Dalai Lama at a private lunch because it might upset the Chinese—tough. We need transparency of dialogue and to be able to speak freely. When speaking freely in the House, we must say loud and clear that the Tibetan people’s struggle is a struggle for democracy and free speech in which all of us have an interest.

Western Balkans

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)]

It is a delight, Mrs Brooke, to see you in the Chair today. Coming back to Committee Room 10 reminds me of a few years ago, when I raised this same subject in a Westminster Hall debate. At that time, we were also in this room. The then Minister for Europe was one Geoff Hoon. Some of the themes have moved on since then, but I will return to others. It is also a delight to see the Minister. I know that this subject is not his area of expertise—the Minister for Europe is busy elsewhere—but as we are former colleagues at the Whips Office, he will remember my discussions on various subjects, which included the region we are talking about.

Almost exactly 40 years ago, I started at London university studying Serbo-Croat language and literature, and so started my knowledge of and relationship with the region. Today reminds me a little of my student days, because, due to a whole load of work that has come in my constituency in the past couple of days, I have not prepared my essay properly. As so often in the past, I will try to wing it by bluffing my way through. After 40 years, I think I have a reasonable amount of knowledge, but I have no set speech. I would have loved to have given the Minister an advance copy, but no such copy exists. Anyway—here we go.

The current fashion is for people to have a bucket list of things they want to do. For me, it is a list of things I want to get off my chest before I stand down from Parliament at the next general election. The western Balkans is an area that I feel strongly about, because it is of great interest and great importance to the European situation. As we know, it was, sadly, one of the biggest problems in Europe during the latter half of the 20th century.

History in the Balkan area is very important. Here we are, 100 years after the start of the first world war—and we know that the trigger for that was the assassination in Sarajevo of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip. Interestingly, even now that history has an impact; a lot of people are almost trying to rewrite history or analyse it. The Serbs feel that there is almost an attempt to rewrite it as a Serbian movement when, in fact, Gavrilo Princip was a member of the Young Bosnia, or Mlada Bosna, movement. Members of his team—it was not a very experienced team—included a Bosnian Muslim and others, so it was not just a Serbian thing.

We have to be careful when we remember such events. In fact, there are echoes today, because all through what was then the Austro-Hungarian empire were groups of young people—mostly men and often students—who were dissatisfied and frustrated with the system. They resorted to violence, and we can see where else that is happening in the world.

Next year marks an important year in Serbian history. I will not confine my comments to Serbia; I am just starting off with it. In 1915, the Serbian nation retreated. It did quite well initially against the forces of the Austro-Hungarian empire, but it was beaten back. Bulgaria joined the war and there was a pincer movement, so the Serbs had to retreat. They did not want to be occupied, so the Serbian army, the Serbian Parliament, the Serbian King and the church—they even dug up some of their saints—moved in the middle of winter across the Albanian mountains and went on eventually, with massive sacrifice and massive numbers of deaths, to Corfu. There the British and French reclothed them and so forth and helped get them back to the Salonika front, where they fought their way up.

That was an important moment in Serbian history. It is interesting, in the context of the Balkans, that the Albanians allowed the Serbian army to come through and said that it must be unhindered. Although we sometimes hear of the rivalries today—I say “rivalries”, but they obviously go past that in some respects—these things are not always as deep-seated as people think.

I have a particular interest in this issue and, as Members will know, I am a natural retailer, so I should mention that I am helping with a play. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is also helping with it. The play, which will tour in the UK and Serbia, is about a British nurse called Flora Sandes, who went out as a nurse and ended up serving in the Serbian army. She was the only British woman who served on the front line as a woman, although there might have been some who disguised themselves.

The play will be about Flora, but also about a Serbian woman called Milunka Savic, and there will be a comparison between the two. Milunka is fascinating, because she was one of the top throwers of grenades. I do not know whether she would be called a grenadier or a bomber. The reason for her skill was that she was a shepherd. She was so used to throwing stones to frighten away wolves and things, she could pinpoint grenades with remarkable accuracy. She was one of the top marksmen with grenades.

The play is coming up, and one reason why I mention it is that it is important to realise the historical link between our nation and the Serbs in that period. We were great allies, and that has continued, except for the latter half of the 20th century and the particular period when we had the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. Despite that recent history, the Serbian national view is that they want to renew that alliance with Britain, and that is something we can do in encouraging their EU aspirations.

Another point on the Salonika front is that I recently went to an exhibition at the School of Oriental and African Studies, which was just next to my old college, the School of Slavonic and East European Studies. There was an exhibition on Sikhs in the Indian army in the first world war and the large number of Muslims who fought for the British—it was the British Indian army—on the Salonika front. Many of them lost their lives. We should highlight that the divides between nations and religions and everything else are not clear-cut. Sometimes, things are polarised in today’s world.

Obviously, the history of close co-operation carried on into the second world war. History must always be in our minds in the Balkan region. I am delighted to see two hon. Members from Northern Ireland here. That region is another example of where we should never forget history, but that does not mean we have to be a slave to it. Northern Ireland is a good example of how we can move on. Some of these regions with divides in their communities can learn from the example of Northern Ireland, and that is why I am particularly delighted to see the two hon. Members.

The history is deeply rooted and for the Serbs it goes back a long way—to the mediaeval period. We all know about Kosovo and all that. There is a sense of being a victim, which was further accentuated in the last part of the 20th century. We must also be aware of some of the terrible things that occurred in Europe in the latter half of the 20th century. Srebrenica, for example, is probably the most obvious and highlighted of the appalling things that happened. I do not think that I will have time during the remainder of my parliamentary career to visit the area, but I hope to be able to, because one has to understand exactly what went on.

Other things went on, however, and one side was certainly not responsible for them all. There are no definite goodies and baddies in such situations; there are lots of both. I recently discovered that the Special Investigative Task Force under lead prosecutor John Clint Williamson has been examining the claims of atrocities—I should perhaps say “alleged atrocities”, but I think we have got past that and that he said that there were atrocities—committed in Kosovo by alleged members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. That has gone a long way to helping people in the region realise that it is not only the victors who say that everything was done against them and that investigations will happen for all concerned.

The problem for so much of central and south-eastern Europe—we are seeing it even further east in Ukraine—lies with realising that the countries are not homogeneous. The peoples who live in those countries are from a wide range of ethnic groupings. One village might speak Serbian while the next might speak Slovak. That is what makes the whole thing so complicated and is a common theme when minorities and their rights are being sorted out.

I want to move briefly on to the use of depleted uranium during bombing and the related health consequences, which are always somewhere at the back of Serb minds, and not only theirs. I do not think the issue has been properly investigated. In 1999, there was a report by someone called Bakary Kante from the UN Environment Programme, but I am not sure whether it has been properly published. We must get such things out into the open.

I am no expert on the south-west of England, but I believe that the recent severe flooding did not greatly affect the East Devon constituency of the Minister—I imagine that it was not very good, but it probably was not appalling. However, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in particular have experienced extreme flooding. We only heard a little about it, but I was delighted that Britain, as part of a European-wide aid programme, did an awful lot to help. We are possibly victims of not blowing our trumpet and of not letting the Serbs and Bosnians understand how much we sympathise and how much practical help we gave.

There have been many instances throughout the country of individuals and organisations—not national Governments and not even necessarily non-governmental organisations—helping mutually and I found an interesting case the other day. If the Minister for Europe had been here, he would have been particularly interested, because it revolves around his old school. I have discovered that Northwood prep, among other projects around the world including Africa and India through something called the Francis Terry Foundation, has been helping to build kindergartens and play areas in a couple of villages—I think they are villages, but one must be careful—in the Nish area called Toponica and Matejevac. The facilities are allowing people who may otherwise have had to move to the cities, which is a problem in such areas, to have their kids looked after at home. The school has also been visited by the Crown Prince of Serbia and, I think, will be making a trip to a concert in Serbia. That is just one example. An advantage of the internet is that we can link schools and organisations much more easily when compared with the old town-twinning process, which was clunky and involved people going over there and all the related expenses. It is a great way to learn about other peoples.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman said that he was bluffing his way through his speech, so I commend him, based on the past 15 minutes, on perfecting the art. Does he agree that many UK faith organisations also get involved with offers of help and assistance to the Balkans, particularly through the internet? Given the extent of the deprivation, particularly among young children in some areas, considerable help is being offered, and that should be promoted.

[Sir John Randall]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. In fact, some years ago—as I became lost into the Whips Office, some of the dates have passed me by and have been put to one side, like all the memories I have of who did what to whom and when—I remember being closely involved with a faith organisation that was working in several areas of the Balkans. It still does tremendous work, because there is still incredible deprivation among some Roma populations and in some rural areas.

Since being released from the Whips Office, human trafficking and modern slavery have been of great interest to me. In that context, I visited Albania, which was the only country in the region that I had not visited. When I was a student, I would not have been allowed to go to Albania, because I had a beard and in the days of Enver Hoxha that might have made one appear to be an orthodox priest or something, although I am not sure that I resembled such a priest in any other way. However, I was encouraged, because I suppose that I listened over the years to a lot of the propaganda about what was going on in Albania. It is a poor country, but it is making efforts. However, modern slavery and human trafficking must really be considered across the whole region. I say to all those countries that aspire to join the EU, which may be some way off, that that is something on which they can really show leadership by trying to sort it out. Albania is doing what it can, but they all have a long way to go.

Kosovo is obviously probably the thorniest problem in the area, and some countries within the EU still have not recognised an independent Kosovo. The Serbs and the Kosovans have some form of agreement. It will never be far away from becoming a problem, but Baroness Ashton brought people together in a positive move, which should be encouraged. I do not expect an answer today, as this is not the Minister’s area of responsibility, but he could perhaps look into a question for me. When I last visited Kosovo a few years ago, people were still living in containers in some of the enclaves after being displaced from their homes. I am not sure whether that is the current situation, but I was appalled at the time that people in Europe should still be living like that after many years. Perhaps he could look into the matter. Also, some sacred monuments were still having to be guarded by NATO troops, because, even though they are centuries old, they were seen as indicating that Serbian culture had been on that territory, so I would welcome a note at some stage from his colleagues at the Foreign Office on the current situation.

Macedonia, as I am sure people realise, suffers not only from similar problems, but from a problem that I find incredible in today’s world: an EU country is resisting things because it does not think that Macedonia should use the name “Macedonia”. Now that I have raised that in Parliament, I will get e-mails and hate letters from Greek nationalists, as I did the last time that I mentioned it. I remember that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister visited Macedonia when he was an Opposition shadow Minister. When he came back, he wrote an article in The Guardian—one of his favoured organs, I am sure—asking how people in Greece would like to referred to as living in the “former Ottoman province of Greece”.

That such objections go on these days is incredible, but I am aware of the sensitivities. Greece thinks that Macedonia, by having that name, has its sights on territory further down in Thrace and so forth. If we cannot sort out an agreement on a name in the EU, however, our chance of sorting out some of the finer points is a little worrying. Macedonia still has huge problems, not only between the Macedonians and the Macedonian Albanians, but with a large number of other peoples there.

Montenegro I used to know well. Members may know it still, because it has a beautiful coastline, although it is not all coastline; a lot of it is harsh karst scenery and a tough place to live. Montenegro got its independence, but has a huge problem with law and order. It also has a huge problem with smuggling and has a large amount of Russian investment, although perhaps the Russians are moving that to the Crimea at the moment, who knows, because Montenegro has EU aspirations and will be trying to untie slightly the close links that most of the Slavic countries in the area have with Russia. We need to help, because what is going on in Montenegro is a bit of a blot on the whole process.

Serbia I have spoken about, but I will return to it briefly, because I feel that it is moving forward. A lot is still to be done and the British and the EU can encourage the Serbs. We in the UK have a role to play, because of the traditional alliance that we had with them. The more that we can say that is where we are coming from, the better. I am not always simply being charitable; there is a huge opportunity for British trade in the area. Unfortunately, some of the practices in some of those countries do not encourage British trade. In fact, those who are in the diaspora tend to be the pioneers in the area. I commend an organisation, which I know quite well: the Serbian City Club. Young professionals in the UK of Serbian origin are doing an awful lot to encourage people.

Egypt

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Dr Lewis]

That is absolutely correct. My hon. Friend will put me right if I am mistaken, but I recall that part of the deal at the outset was that the Muslim Brotherhood undertook not to run for the presidency—I think that I am right in saying that. That promise was very promptly broken.

In my time trying to comment as best I can on defence and security-related subjects in Parliament, not too many months—certainly not too many years—go by when I do not have recourse to mentioning one of my favourite political quotations from the late, great, Sir Karl Popper in his famous book, “The Open Society and Its Enemies”. I have quoted it before and I suspect that circumstances will require me to quote it again. The paradox of tolerance is that in a free society, people must tolerate all but the intolerant, because if you tolerate the intolerant, the conditions for toleration disappear and the tolerant go with them. I am sure that this is what the people who ousted the Islamists in Egypt would argue was their justification. Although I said earlier that one must not make simplistic comparisons, I am now probably about to do just that. Those people would probably point to the situation in Germany in the 1930s and say, “Wouldn’t it have been better if the army had thrown the Nazis out, once it became clear that they were going to rip up the constitution and remove any chance of a democratic future, and when it saw what the Hitlerites were trying to do to the German system—which had more or less democratically elected them to power in the first place—using the techniques that we are so familiar with in totalitarian takeovers, to get an iron and irreversible grip on the society?” How would we feel now if the army had stepped in then?

I worry when I hear people use phrases such as moderate Islamism. The description of Islamism is the description of an extreme, intolerant ideology; there is no moderate Islamism, any more than there is moderate totalitarianism or moderate extremism. The reality is that there was a choice in Egypt between an Islamist takeover and the ejection of a group of people bent on destroying any sort of emergent democracy in that country and making a terrible mess of running it in the process.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

While the hon. Gentleman is expanding on whether there can be moderate Islamism and the consequence of Islamism emerging in Egypt and other middle eastern nations, might I ask if he shares many people’s concern that religious minorities, including Christians and others, are being systematically purged, not just in thousands or tens of thousands, but in hundreds of thousands, from many nation states right across the middle east?

[Dr Lewis]

I endorse that, and pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman and his party colleagues for raising this question more consistently and more often than any other group of hon. Members in the House. They are right to do so. We have to try to take a long view of the prospects for the re-emergence of some form of moderate government in Egypt. Those of us who have been in, and aware of, politics for a long time can remember the bad old days of Nasser. I am sure that some people would say, “Ah, but those days are likely to come back,” but I remember that most sensible, pro-democratic people were relieved when Nasser’s successor, Sadat, showed himself willing to moderate the more extreme outlooks of Egyptian politics and to make peace with Israel.

I remember, when Sadat was assassinated by what, today, we would call Islamists, how relieved we were that somebody else came forward who carried on his policies. Nevertheless, as is always the case when people come forward and get a grip, as Mubarak did, and do not want to give it up, corruption became rife and the situation ultimately became unstable. Of course, understandably, the people became fed up with him. However, although it took quite a while for the people to become fed up with that form of dictatorship, it did not take them terribly long to be fed up with President Morsi and his group.

Bilateral Relations: Kurdistan Region of Iraq

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Swire]

Indeed, we should and will do everything we can to bring to justice perpetrators of any atrocities anywhere in the world, and the companies that have been supplying them illegally. That is what we do as a Government, and we will certainly continue to do so. Reflecting on those past tragedies only emphasises the progress made by Iraqi Kurdistan. We urge Iraqi Kurds to use the example of their history and progress to become a voice of moderation in Iraq and to show what they have done to address discrimination, to protect minorities and to rejuvenate their economy.

In the closing moments I will address the other questions that have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon is a fantastic example of someone from that part of the world. He said that he is the first British Member of Parliament of Kurd ancestry, which is a remarkable achievement. There is a lot more he can do, and I would not be surprised if there were some wonderful opportunities for Erbil in Stratford-on-Avon. If we can export “War Horse,” the Michael Morpurgo play, to China, I am sure he can probably export “Wolf Hall” to Erbil. “Wolf Hall” is a play that runs for eight hours and is on in Stratford-on-Avon as we speak, and I know that my hon. Friend is experiencing considerable difficulty in obtaining tickets.

The hon. Members for Cheltenham and for Wrexham talked about women’s rights, particularly in relation to FGM. Since I have been in the House we have not done enough about FGM, which is one of the most abhorrent, despicable things to happen to women, and the thought that it still continues in the UK is absolutely unacceptable.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The Minister is addressing an important topic. Does he agree that we need to send out a clear message not just in the region but across the developing world that the practice of female genital mutilation is totally and utterly unacceptable to try to move those societies away from such a barbaric practice?

[Mr Swire]

Yes, I absolutely do. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the Foreign Secretary’s wider initiative to prevent sexual violence in conflict, particularly against women. FGM is different, and there is a big initiative in the House, not before time. We have continued to fund various projects run by the Westminster Foundation for Democracy to increase participation by female parliamentarians in the Kurdistan Parliament. We continue to support efforts to improve the position of women in Iraqi society, and we are working closely with the UN, the EU and other international partners, but he is right. I find the practice of FGM absolutely abhorrent wherever it is perpetrated. It seems to me to be an ultimate act of violence against very young women and girls who have no choice, and we should continue to be strong wherever in the world we find the practice.

I do not run the Foreign Secretary’s diary, but I am certain that he will have noted the point on high-level visits. The then Minister with responsibility for the middle east, my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, visited Erbil in February 2013, and Lord Marland has also visited. Various hon. Members called for more ministerial visits and trade missions—yes, absolutely. I would point out that Ministers under this Government are travelling much more than ever before, and that part of the world should certainly be on their agenda. I welcome the idea that we should invite President Barzani to the UK, and we will factor that in. We heard from the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) about President Barzani’s visit to Northern Ireland at the invitation of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in February 2013 and the signing of the memorandum of understanding, which was a very successful trip.

My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley asked about a UK trade envoy for Iraqi Kurdistan, which is probably under consideration. Such appointments are made by No. 10, which is aware of the opportunities in Iraqi Kurdistan. We have spoken about visas, Anfal and flights. This is one of those remarkable occasions on which I have addressed every single question raised by hon. Members. This debate has been entirely consensual. There is no party political divide, and we agree that the work of the all-party group has been superb and continues to be so. We agree that we need to do much more in the area on education, cultural links and business opportunities. We need to do a lot to remind the world of the horrendous suffering of the Iraqi Kurds, and we need to do more to raise awareness and to alleviate the suffering of many refugees from Syria. The extraordinarily complicated mix in the area is the fallout from what is going on in Syria. On human rights, we need to ensure the safety and freedom of journalists. We want free and fair elections. We want good relations with all the disparate parts of Iraq, and we want to end barbaric practices such as female genital mutilation. We are in a good place and we are doing a lot, but we can always do a lot more. With such an active all-party group, we are in a pretty good place.