Azerbaijan and the South Caucasus

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for bringing this matter to Westminster Hall for debate.

As previous speakers have indicated, the United Kingdom has important economic and business ties with Azerbaijan; indeed, almost 52% of Azerbaijan’s contact is with the United Kingdom and other countries. However, I want to discuss religious and racial discrimination, which I mentioned to the hon. Gentleman before the debate, and which he touched on early in his deliberations. Although incidents of discrimination have taken place over the past few years, I want to mention a couple that have taken place in the past two weeks, so they are very relevant to the debate.

The secular Government continue to control religious freedom. Racial discrimination also affects religious freedom, because the Christian population is almost entirely ethnic Armenian and Russian, while the Muslim population is largely ethnic Azeri—given my Northern Ireland accent, some of those words will probably come out in a completely different way from usual, and I am not sure how they will be translated in Hansard, but that is by the way. A 1992 religious law initially granted more freedoms, but it has been amended several times, and restrictions have been introduced. Interestingly, Azerbaijan’s constitution clearly safeguards religious freedom, freedom of expression and human rights, but those things are not practised in reality, and that is where the problems are.

The state committee for work with religious organisations, which was formed in 2001, demands the registration of religious communities and censors religious literature. Christian groups that do not register are considered illegal and often face discrimination. In December 2007, following a police raid, five church members and three visitors were imprisoned and fined for meeting without state registration. Police officers also confiscated their books and other religious materials. On 20 June 2008, police arrested Pastor Hamid Shabanov on allegations of possessing an illegal weapon, which church members said was not true. They felt the arrest was an attempt to halt Christian activity in the area.

The state religious affairs official who led a police raid on a Baptist congregation in Sumgait during Sunday morning worship on 12 June this year explained away the lack of a warrant, saying:

“I’m the permission and the warranty”.

If a country enshrines religious freedom and human rights in its constitution, it must abide by that; it cannot make up the law as it goes along or discriminate against Christians and those of different racial identities.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend is outlining some recent and topical instances of religious suppression in Azerbaijan. Does he agree that the best way to draw attention to the problems faced by Azerbaijanis going about their religious worship under intense pressure is sometimes through diplomatic channels and all-party group discussions and visits? In that way, we can try to get the Governments of nation states such as Azerbaijan to look again at their human rights approach.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution, which clearly highlights the issues. We will be asking the Minister and perhaps the all-party group to take the opportunity to raise these issues on behalf of people in Azerbaijan who are discriminated against.

On 12 June this year—the same day the Baptists were raided—Jehovah’s Witnesses in Gyanja stated that they were raided because they did not have compulsory state registration. An official of the state committee for work with religious organisations defended its officials’ participation in the raids, saying that they were working

“in accordance with the law".

However, it is an oppressive law and it is not right. The law on religion has been amended 13 times since 1992.

As I said, police and local state committee officials raided a church in Sumgait, near the capital, Baku, on 12 June, and they raided the Jehovah’s Witnesses at the same time. They were clear that they did not need the law of the land—they had permission and the warrant. Following both raids, fines are expected under the code of administrative offences for meeting for religious worship without state registration. The raids—the latest in a series on religious communities—came two days after Azerbaijan’s Parliament had adopted further restrictive amendments to the religious law. The Government are continuously moving the goalposts, and I am quite concerned about that.

A spokesperson said the law enforcement officers conducted these operations in accordance with the law, but he refused to give his name. When he was asked how raiding worship services was in accordance with religious freedom commitments enshrined in Azerbaijan’s constitution and the country’s international human rights commitments, he put the phone down—in other words, he had made his mind up about that.

Controversial and restrictive new amendments to the religious law have gone to the President, and this will be the 13th time that it has been amended since it was adopted in 1992. The amendments, which were given preliminary approval in a matter of weeks, on 31 May, raise the number of adult founders required for a religious community from 10 to 50, introduce new controls on religious education and increase the controls that the state requires religious headquarter bodies or centres to have over all communities under their jurisdiction. The amendments apply especially to the state-controlled Caucasian Muslim board, to which all Muslim communities must belong. Although I have outlined the raids on the Baptist church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, there are also restrictions on those of a Muslim persuasion, so three religious groups are having problems in Azerbaijan.

Even before their adoption by the Parliament, the amendments have aroused concern among religious communities. In particular, those that had lodged re-registration applications in 2009, but which are still waiting for a response, fear that the new requirement for 50 adult founders will allow the state committee to reject their current applications. Potentially, churches that have been in operation for 20-plus years could have their activities restricted, and that would concern me.

In the Sumgait raid on 12 June, about 100 Baptists were at their Sunday morning worship service when about 20 police officers and men in civilian clothes broke in. The people in the church had been praying for about half an hour when the police burst in and they asked the police to wait until the end of the service before doing anything. Everyone present was told that it was up to each individual’s conscience whether they gave their name, as the police demanded. The police blocked all the exits out of the church and would not let anyone through without giving a name and address so, clearly, what they had said earlier meant nothing because they already had the details. Furthermore, police filmed the premises and the people attending on mobile phones and later on cameras. They confiscated all the religious books they could find—4,645 booklets, 9,229 individual books, 152 religious textbooks and 2,470 religious invitations—to have a wee look, to see if they were acceptable under Azerbaijan’s tight censorship of religious literature of all faiths.

Those raiding the Sumgait Baptist church refused to give their names, but the raid seems to have been led by state officials. Despite a number of phone calls, which went unanswered or were put down, there seemed to be a refusal to help those of a Baptist persuasion who wished to worship God in their church, their right to do so being enshrined in the constitution. Article 299 includes a wide range of offences, including meeting for worship without state permission. In December 2010, sharp increases in fines were introduced for all violations of article 299. Again, that will hit those who wish to worship God in their chosen way, and I am concerned that it has not been carried out as it should be. Hopefully, the Minister will be able to indicate what he can do to help those people.

The police were told that the church has no intention of applying for state registration because it believes that it does not need it and because it regards enforced state registration as an unwarranted intrusion into its internal affairs. Officers told the church that it would be fined. The Baptist pastor believes—as I do—that he has done nothing wrong. He adhered to the law of the land and to the wishes of a congregation who wanted to worship God on a Sunday morning and who have been worshipping in that building for a long time—some 20 years.

I am conscious of the time, so I will run through my remaining points quickly. The Jehovah’s Witnesses had a similar experience; 37 people were present during one raid, some of whom were taken away by the police for questioning for a number of hours and the rest given verbal warnings. Some were punished under the administrative offences code.

Earlier raids included three on Protestant churches in Sumgait over a three-day period in mid-May just past. Religious books were confiscated and two members of one congregation, a husband and wife, were each fined the equivalent of two weeks’ average wages. Other raids took place in Gyanja, where the Jehovah’s Witnesses had been raided, and those groups were banned from meeting for worship because they had not registered. At least one Star of the East Pentecostal church had a visit from the police and riot police to prevent worship. Even though the constitution says that such worshippers have rights, they do not. All the evidence points in a certain direction, and I am concerned about that. The state committee rejected the findings of a Council of Europe report, stating that

“it did not reflect the real situation in the country and bears a superficial character.”

However, I have talked about the evidence, which says something completely different.

In conclusion, Azerbaijan is a country rich in natural resources with which Britain has a special relationship. It has a wonderful people who are admired by those who have met them. At the same time, it has repressive laws that discriminate against those who want to practise their religious beliefs and against those of a certain racial persuasion. The Minister has an opportunity today, and I ask him and the all-party group to use their influence to ensure that those who want to practise their religious beliefs can do so without fear or discrimination.

Treatment of Christians

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

It is a privilege to introduce the debate under your chairmanship, Mr Benton, and I thank other hon. Members for attending. I acknowledge that this is a wide-ranging subject. The issues that it raises could not be fully incorporated in a single debate, but given where we are meeting and where we as a nation are in our collective history and given the current complexion of our national politics and some of the international happenings that surround us, it is a subject to which we would do well to turn our attention.

Today, I want to consider two issues: the violent persecution of Christians internationally and restrictions on or the denial of civil and religious liberties for Christians in some parts of the world. Let me begin by making it clear that I am not blind to the abuses or atrocities that have been perpetrated by individuals who took to themselves the name “Christian” or by the professing Christian Church down the ages. However, it is not true, as some assert, that religion has been the one great persecutor in human history, for we should never forget Lenin and his use of slavery, the war that he waged against his own poor, the famine that that created, which left 30 million people facing starvation and death, and his slaughter of people of religion. Nor should we forget Stalin and his labour camps and the culling of the disabled—his Russian holocaust with victims numbered in the tens of millions and human beings regarded only as commodities to be exploited and expended in the interests of the state. We should not forget the repression of religion, including so-called accidental assassination carried out against people of faith.

There is also Chairman Mao, with an estimated 40 million victims—a figure that combines the outcome of his policies and the many millions deliberately killed. We could consider Pol Pot and those who were responsible for the killing fields and the deaths of between 25% and 30% of the entire population of Cambodia. Could we forget the many victims in Romania, where it was forbidden even to own a simple typewriter? I could also mention the East German experience and that of Poland and Albania under the rule of atheists. To that I could add the innumerable atrocities perpetrated by atheist authorities in central and south America, Africa and the far east.

It is not true, as some try to allege, that above all other things, religion is the great persecutor and the cause, source and substance of all the world’s great woes, for when atheism has been anointed as the faith of the state, to that, too, we can trace all kinds of brutality, inhumanity, violence and death. However, although that is undoubtedly the case, no one could deny that religion has played a grim role in far too many of the world’s sorrows or that those who profess faith in Jesus Christ have been the guilty party far too often, so I am not blind to the horrors of the crusades or the fires of the Inquisition. In this week when we look back on the visit of Her Majesty the Queen to the Republic of Ireland, I am not blind to the role played by professing Christianity in the darker episodes of Irish history, from the day when Pope Adrian donated Ireland to Henry II right down to present-day scandals involving the evil of child abuse. I make that very clear at the outset.

I do believe, however, that we need to turn our attention to the troubles and tribulations faced by Christians across the world today. This is the subject of the debate. There is violent persecution of Christians across the world. There are numerous areas of great concern. In the short time available to me, I cannot go through all the individual countries or list every example. I will just draw hon. Members’ attention to some particular cases.

In parts of Africa, Christians face intense, violent persecution. Nigeria continues to witness wave upon wave of violence directed against Christians. Hundreds of Christians have been killed in the aftermath of the election. Massive simultaneous attacks against Christians were launched in almost every northern state. Mobs massacred hundreds of Christians, burned more than 300 churches and destroyed countless Christian homes. It has been estimated that in Kaduna state alone, at least 300 people were slaughtered. Nigerian Government authorities were in such a hurry to hide the extent of the massacre that they organised mass burials of the victims almost immediately after the attacks. As a result, the exact death toll remains unknown.

Just this month, Muslim attackers reportedly killed 17 Christians, including the wife and three children of a pastor in northern Nigeria. Several Christian homes were burned in the village of Kurum. Among the victims in Nigeria are indigenous missionaries, pastors and leaders. Last year, more than 2,000 Christians were killed in targeted Nigerian violence.

Thousands of Christians are fleeing violence in western parts of Ethiopia. Muslim extremists killed several Christians and burned dozens of churches. Some 55 churches and dozens of homes are reported to have been burned in recent days near the city of Jimma, in the western Oromia region.

In Somalia, the radical organisation al-Shabaab has led the way in killing Christians, especially those who have converted from Islam. In Sudan, Christians have endured long decades of violence. In a recent debate in the other place, the Bishop of Bath and Wells said the following regarding Zimbabwe:

“The Anglican Church in Zimbabwe is undergoing a sustained and brutal persecution with its origins in a dispute over church properties and the non re-election of Dr. Kunonga, the former Bishop of Harare and someone widely regarded as a plant of the Mugabe regime…This is something that I have witnessed, all too painfully, for myself in a number of places.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 10 March 2011; Vol. 725, c. 1809.]

When we turn to Asia, we find that Pakistan’s notorious blasphemy laws have been used as a cover to justify violent attacks. The President of India recently expressed her shock at the upsurge in violent persecution of Christians, especially in states such as Karnataka and Orissa. Christians in Karnataka have suffered serious violent attacks since 2008, including physical attacks on individuals and places of worship.

The sufferings of Christians in Orissa state are long standing and are truly horrendous. They include murder, kidnapping, forced marriage, the burning of churches and the forced removal of people from their homes, with about 18,000 people being injured, and 6,000 houses and 296 churches and smaller places of Christian worship in some 400 villages being burned. More than 56,000 people were displaced and more than 10,000 have yet to return home; and 1,000 have been warned that they can come back only if they convert to Hinduism.

To that could be added the long enduring plight of Christians in China, Burma, North Korea and Vietnam, where death is common and suffering is intense. In the middle east, there are numerous and disturbing examples that can easily be assessed.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Before he moves on from the middle east, will he join me in noting that a couple of months ago The Independent drew a dramatic picture of the demographic decline that has resulted in the almost total elimination of non-Muslim groups in many countries in the middle east? Hopefully, we will see some recognition of that with international action to stem it, and the promotion of inclusivity rather than expelling people on religious grounds.

[David Simpson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He is 100% right; I shall deal with the matter later in my speech.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) has done the House a considerable service in initiating this afternoon’s debate. It is depressing that, in the 21st century, when the world is, in some ways, getting smaller, intolerance of other faiths and beliefs is growing in all too many parts of the world.

The best means for ensuring the fair treatment of Christians internationally is through the strong advocacy of the right to freedom of religion or belief for people of all faiths, as outlined in article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights and article 18 of the international covenant on civil and political rights. Although the UDHR is non-binding on UN member states, it contains significant moral and normative force. The international covenant is legally binding on those member states that have ratified the treaty.

Freedom of religion or belief should be viewed as not some peripheral right, but a right that is central to the identity and well-being of all people. Looking around the Chamber this afternoon, I see hon. Members with views and faiths that are fundamental to their identity as individuals. The coalition Government should be complimented on raising the profile of freedom of religion and belief, as evidenced in the most recent human rights report of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, for which my hon. Friend the Minister is responsible.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann was entirely right to say that the British Government should set out clear benchmarks for progress on religious freedom issues in bilateral and multilateral dialogue with other states. Pakistan will soon be the largest recipient of UK bilateral development aid, which legitimately gives us some leverage in our dealings with it. We should continue to make representations in the strongest and most forceful way about the impact that its blasphemy law is having on its people.

Many of us were present at St Margaret’s, Westminster, for the memorial service for Shahbaz Bhatti, who was assassinated in Pakistan for being a Christian. Sadly, his death is symptomatic of the growing divisions in Pakistan as well as symbolic of the silence of those in Pakistan seeking to confront forces of extremism.

There are many ways in which the UK Government can exert pressure on countries in which religious tolerance and religious freedom are being ignored. Perhaps the most strategically concerning issue at the moment is the situation facing religious minorities in north Africa and the middle east, given the current phase of various uprisings and revolutions. Egypt is particularly crucial because a significant minority are Christians—Copts and Catholics.

There have been an increasing number of attacks on religious minorities in Egypt, particularly on the Coptic community. The most recent incident to gain widespread attention was the attack on 7 May on two churches in Cairo. One was gutted following false allegations that it was forcibly detaining a female convert to Islam.

What is rather sad is that such events took place after the events in Egypt and the Arab spring when so many people were full of hope and optimism. The President-Bishop of the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East, the Most Reverend Mouneer Anis, observed:

“The fear now is that the revolution is being kidnapped by these extremist groups, and there is a lot of effort being made by more democratically minded Muslims and Christians to rescue the revolution.”

That is absolutely correct. What has also been impressive is the extent to which many Christians and Muslims are still trying to protect minorities in Egypt. Despite the recent violence, efforts to promote sectarian tolerance continue. Indeed, several thousand Copts and Muslims recently held a joint march through Imbaba in Cairo to denounce the burning of the churches.

Nevertheless, the scenes that one has witnessed or read about are horrific. I was particularly struck by reports that a guard—I suppose that here we would describe him as a sexton—at St Mary’s church in Cairo had refused to denounce Jesus Christ and his own Christianity and that, as a consequence, his throat was cut. He was a man who was just doing his job but he was confronted and attacked. That is intolerable.

Only last weekend, up to 80 people were injured in Cairo when a group of Copts demonstrated outside the state television building. They were simply calling for more effective police protection for Christians and their property in the aftermath of the clashes in the Imbaba district, in which 15 people were killed and two churches were set on fire.

In the coming days of the Whitsun recess for Parliament, I am going to Cairo. I will meet Christian friends—both Catholics and Copts. Not only are they going through the turmoil of what is happening with inter-faith challenges in Egypt, but they are going through the political turmoil in the country. They wonder where they fit into that situation.

As the hon. Member for Upper Bann said, it is not only Egypt that is affected. The tragedy is that Christianity in the middle east is on the slide. Indeed, it is not just sliding into obscurity; it is almost in danger of being extinguished in many countries, such as Iran and Iraq. About 50 years ago, this was a part of the world where Jews, Muslims and Christians lived side by side. Now, for various reasons, it is extremely difficult for Christians to profess their faith in many middle east countries.

As the hon. Gentleman said, part of that process is about the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, which is also on the rise in Nigeria and other parts of Africa. Some of the stories—indeed, some of the facts—about what is happening in northern Nigeria, a leading Commonwealth country and another significant recipient of UK development assistance, are frightening. A system of religious repression is developing in parts of northern and central Nigeria and effectively there has been imposition of sharia law in those areas.

For example, there are parts of northern Nigeria where non-Muslim subsistence farmers are being subjected to an extreme form of usury that is known locally as bada kaka. Under that system, those non-Muslim farmers are obliged to pay for every bag of fertiliser that they buy from Muslim traders with two bags of goods that have been harvested and that fee doubles if they default on repayments. Ultimately, those who are unable to pay off such loans risk being deprived of their land, their possessions and, in a few extreme cases, their children, following a sharia court ruling. Those are things that we do not tend to hear about when we are debating international development and other related matters in this House, but they should have a far higher profile.

There are other parts of the world where Christians seem to be under considerable pressure. In countries such as India, there is an increase in nationalism. As a result, the position of Christians in India is being made increasingly difficult. In a number of communist or quasi-communist states, such as China or North Korea, life is incredibly difficult for Christians.

All the rights set out in the universal declaration of human rights are very important. However, I am concerned that the world is allowing there to be a creeping acceptance that religious intolerance is to be tolerated, or at least not challenged. There comes a time when we all have to ask ourselves, “To what extent can the tolerant tolerate the intolerant?” There comes a point where increasingly we have to challenge some countries in the world about what they are doing to defend their minorities and people who may have belief systems that are different from those of most of their citizens.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

The hon. Gentleman is touching on a very important point. It is not only in other countries but here in the United Kingdom that these types of things are happening. Does he agree that some of the issues that the far right in the United Kingdom thrive on are exactly the issues that we are talking about today? The far right in the United Kingdom feed on the paranoia of some communities that anyone coming into the United Kingdom from any of the nations that we have discussed today is to be abhorred and treated with contempt and disdain. We will see in our society the seed bed of problems for the future if we do not deal with these issues internally in the United Kingdom as well as in other countries.

[Tony Baldry]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. I go back to what I said at the beginning of my speech, that it is generally depressing that here we are at the start of the 21st century and we are actually going backwards in this regard. I hope that all of us—in our family lives, in our communities and in the constituencies that we represent—will seek to inculcate an atmosphere in which there is a built-in mutual tolerance and mutual respect of other people’s beliefs. I am more than willing to walk hand in hand with people of other faiths or people of no faith at all in the journey of life, provided that I tolerate their views and beliefs and they tolerate mine. That is fundamentally important.

I think that what we are saying this afternoon is nothing more than that. I do not think that it can be said in any of the countries where Christians are under pressure that Christians are seeking to challenge or overthrow the existing norms or established customs of those countries. They are being persecuted simply because they are Christians and in the 21st century that is wholly unacceptable.

BBC World Service

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I stress to my hon. Friend that a good deal of the World Service’s budget already counts as ODA-able expenditure, so he should not think that turning to DFID for the money is an easy answer. I reiterate my view that all parts of the public sector must join in in becoming more efficient, and the BBC World Service will be part of the public sector for the next three years.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Given the scale of the Foreign Secretary’s announcement, what guarantee can he give that the BBC’s non-partisanship and impartiality in reporting, which has always been a hallmark of its broadcasting capabilities, will be maintained in future?

[Mr Hague]

I do not anticipate that anything that we are announcing today will have any impact on that important part of the character of the BBC. As other hon. Members have underlined, that is part of the reason for the respect for the World Service, and it is committed to continuing that character.

UK Parliamentary Sovereignty and the EU

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Cash]

I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman is, as ever, slightly ahead of my curve, but I now move on to the next point.

We hear from the Prime Minister that we want the eurozone to be stable. I have argued for many years that an imploding European Union is not in our national interest. I have been saying that for 20 years; I thought that it would occur, and it has. What has been needed is a realignment of European institutions and Europe itself into an association of nation states, precisely to avoid the implosion that is taking place. Only a few months ago, the Prime Minister himself referred to the desirability of our forming ourselves into an association of member states, which I take to be much the same idea.

The Lisbon agenda has failed. I railed against the stability and growth pact in 1996, when the now Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I wrote to Members of Parliament in reply to his letter, indicating that I did not think that the pact could work. It has failed, and with it, the rule of law. Yet, here they are: I heard Madame Lagarde only yesterday talking about bringing it back again, as if experience cannot be seen for what it is. Experience, in my judgment, crushes hope.

The common agricultural policy, the common fisheries policy and the EUROSTAT statistical system have all failed. I believe that the latter is at the heart of the problem in relation to—let us put it bluntly—the lies that were told about the Greek economy. EU origin marking causes enormous damage to the third world, as the committee of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) demonstrated the other day. We had an interesting analysis from the global governance commission in Washington, which emphasised over and over that the EU origin marking system was one of the major problems for the third world.

There is endemic fraud. The Maastricht deficit criteria of 3% is nothing short of a joke, with massively seriously consequences for the voters in this country and throughout Europe, who are subjected to bungled economic management, and massively increasing debt, with the hidden costs of up to £3.1 trillion——in our own case in real terms—which cannot be swept away. The budget deficit proposals of £6 billion are a mere sop in relation to the mismanagement that is coming through Europe and affecting our economy as well, and we will not convince the bond markets or the rating agencies, which determine our ratings in the global marketplace.

As I have said, we were told by the Prime Minister that we need a strong eurozone, because 50% of our trade is with that zone. However, the eurozone is imploding, and Angela Merkel and 68% of the German people are opposed to the Greek bail-out, precisely because the whole economic and political structure of the European Union does not work.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again, in this very timely debate. I am listening with great interest to him analysing the situation, both within and without the eurozone. Does he agree with me that if we do not move now and grasp the nettle—as he has accurately said we should—one of the political problems will be the rise of the far right across Europe, which preys on the very fears and concerns that we all know are out there, and which we have seen emerge from time to time in various nation states?

[Mr Cash]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman, and in my essay in “Visions of Europe” in 1993 I said exactly that—that that would be the consequence of the lawlessness that would follow. The problem is that it is not good enough to wring our hands and say, “Oh well, we’d like this to be better,” or “We’re going to go along with it.” We have to have a radical policy based on proper analysis. I wait to hear what my hon. Friend the Minister says, but I cannot believe that he could seriously disagree with anything I have said. These are factual questions. If it is just a matter of culture or attitude: “Oh well, we want to be good Europeans,” or “We don’t want to face up to these things,” or “People such as Bill Cash are just Europhobes who go around ranting about Europe and banging on”—