Health Bill (First sitting)

Gregory Stafford Excerpts

Tuesday 16th June 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Sureena Brackenridge (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

Q On that point, Dr Dash, what would you say to concerns that have been raised with me by Healthwatch Wolverhampton that patients and service users will be reluctant to raise concerns from within the system? How will your recommendations help with that?

Dr Dash: I think that we do need to recognise that. I hear that as well and experience it myself; lots of people are often reluctant to come forward, and they think, “If this is my GP, how is this information going to be treated?” That is why we need to really raise the calibre of our directors of patient experience. There are ways in which you can manage that and treat that data confidentially—in fact, you have to treat all data confidentially. There are ways in which you can support people and give them the confidence that their information will be taken seriously and treated confidentially. You can do that often through focus groups, one-to-one conversations and anonymous surveys. We are hoping to be able to do a lot more of that through the app, to link it directly to people’s care, and to give people prompts as soon as they have had an interaction: “Please feed back.” I think there are ways in which we can overcome that. Bringing this much closer to people’s care, linking it in much more to day-to-day practice and making sure that feedback goes straight back to our frontline clinicians in an anonymised way to encourage and support them to improve brings a significant benefit, and we can find a way around the concerns about confidentiality.

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

Q I should declare that I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group on patient safety. Apologies, Dr Dash, I have questioned you on this many times, but I am going to continue to do so. When the King’s Fund, the Nuffield Trust and the Health Foundation were in front of the Health and Social Care Committee and they talked about bringing HSSIB into the CQC, all three of them said very clearly: “Don’t do it.”. In fact, I can find almost nobody apart from you and the Department who thinks that moving HSSIB into the CQC is a good idea. Does that give you any pause for thought about whether you are recommending the right thing?

More specifically, if, as you said to the Health and Social Care Committee, the safe space element would be retained and HSSIB would operate as an independent organisation, how can you square the fact that it would remain independent and yet be part of the CQC? If it does remain independent, what is the need to bring it into the CQC?

Dr Dash: The point of bringing it into the CQC, as I said before, is that we are trying to simplify this landscape. There are so many different organisations continually commenting and doing reviews—often replicating the same reviews that other people have done. The concern is that it is distracting rather than enabling. The hope that I had when I made the recommendation, and still have now, is that by bringing HSSIB into the CQC, you can align the work of the two.

For example, if the CQC is going round the country and spotting a particular problem with the way in which anaesthesia is being given or with managing patients post-surgery, the CQC could then say to HSSIB—that team of people with specific expertise—“Can you go in and take a look at this? Can you do a detailed focus review of this particular area of care that we are spotting through our visits and which seems to be a particular challenge?” It is that bit about enabling the CQC to identify a problem and then asking HSSIB to review it in detail, and HSSIB bringing its expertise in investigations into the CQC to enable the CQC to go deeper and then come back to the NHS with particular areas, but also to supplement the work of the NHS.

I would like to point out that since HSSIB was established, the NHS has established its own much more rigorous, much more robust investigatory teams and processes. Of course, I am not saying that they are perfect—we can all see that—but I encourage all colleagues here today to look at the work they are doing, the specific areas they are reviewing, the outputs of those reviews and the ways in which those are leading to improving care. That feels to me to be a much more systematic way of addressing the concerns of patients, families and staff in the place where those concerns happen, having mechanisms to escalate those through the NHS so you can bring them to regions—some investigations get done at the NHS England level—and having the CQC as an independent body that can separately review and spot if there are problems but also ensure that those investigations within the NHS are happening well.

[Gregory Stafford]

Q What happens if the problem is the CQC?

Dr Dash: Well, we then have to deal with that as a problem. That is the same as saying, “What happens if the problem is this organisation or that one?” We have 150 organisations—150. What if the GMC is a problem? What if the Nursing and Midwifery Council is a problem?

[Liz Twist]

Q Dr Dash, you have explained why you believe that the changes to Healthwatch will strengthen patient responses. How do you think that could be strengthened to ensure that the levers really are being pulled for patients? That seemed to be the case.

Dr Dash: There are a few different things. First, we have talked about appointing a director of patient experience. They will report directly to the chief exec of the NHS. That is crucial; it is about emphasising the importance. We are about to do the interviews for that person, so I hope they can be in post very quickly.

Secondly, we are hopefully about to publish the quality strategy. Within that strategy, which has come out of the 10-year plan, we are very clear about the three dimensions of quality. Those are: safety, so ensuring that basic standards are in place; effectiveness, so making sure that patients receive the right care in the right place at the right time and it is delivered to a high standard; and, crucially, patient experience. In the quality strategy, we emphasise that all three of those are crucial. You need to have all three and all three need to be done really well.

We then go on to talk about different mechanisms for improving those dimensions. Crucially, we have a set of 183 metrics, which we will review within the NHS England quality committee while it still exists, and then within the National Quality Board. We also expect every region to review those metrics, as well as others, and every ICB and provider to review the ones that are relevant to them. So the next bit is to have all those different metrics.

Thirdly, we need wider transparency. There are way more than 183 different metrics and we need to have far more on patient experience. They need to be routinely collected in the same way that we do surgical audits or audits of GP work. Those all got in the public domain; that was a big element of the 10-year plan.

Finally, as I said before, we need boards to take full responsibility and accountability for all aspects of quality, which includes patient experience. As I go round and meet individual hospital boards, I ask them about that. I spend quite a lot of time with chairs and new non-executive directors coming into NHS providers, and I continually emphasise, “This is a crucial area for you to focus on as a board.” What are you asking your exec colleagues? Who have you put in place as your director of patient experience within the organisation? How are you routinely collecting information from a whole spectrum of users from the whole of society? How are you doing that in a confidential way for the reasons we spoke about earlier, and then ensuring that people are acting on it? I do not think we are doing anything like enough of that, and we need to get much better and do far more of it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Prinsley]

Especially if it were the case that the patient were the data controller.

Sarah Woolnough: Yes.

Jacob Lant: Whoever ends up being the data controller, the most important thing is that patients have a right to express how their data is used. That is where it is really important to keep things like the national data opt-out up to date, and to ensure that it is clear and accessible for patients to express how their data is used for secondary purposes.

That becomes much harder in a direct care scenario. If you restrict the sharing of data for direct care, you could inadvertently create a second-class system for people who are not in that. It is a really clear distinction. For secondary uses, we need a very clear opt-out, where people can understand how their data is used and express a preference.

[Gregory Stafford]

Q Sarah, when we were at the Health and Social Care Committee, you and your fellow panellists seemed to suggest that the Government could achieve what they needed to in the 10-year plan without this reorganisation. Could you delve into that a bit more and tell us why you think that is the case?

Sarah Woolnough: The Government have an incredibly ambitious agenda, which is partly articulated in the 10-year plan. Our ongoing concern has been that some of the biggest-ticket items that the Government rightly want to achieve to fundamentally shift power to patients—delivering a shift towards prevention, moving care closer to home and allowing more digital enablement—do not require this kind of legislation or a reorganisation.

I go back to my first answer: what is honestly the opportunity cost of doing some of this at the expense of more focus and attention on, for example, delivering care closer to home? There is a lot of energy and activity in that area, but the Government want to make really good progress over the next few years. To take that example, if you are really serious, you need to understand what the barriers are to delivering more care in the community, closer to people and patients, and wrapping services around patients. It requires you to flow money differently and to have a different incentive scheme, but that is nowhere near this piece of legislation.

Our worry has been about what is not in the Bill, and what is the rightly and fantastically ambitious agenda to improve health for people and patients, versus the opportunity cost of a largely technical piece of legislation that reorganises some central functions.

[Gregory Stafford]

Q Would you agree with that, Mr Lant?

Jacob Lant: Yes. I kind of think, as the debate goes on, that—with the changes to Healthwatch in particular—you could achieve so much without legislation. You could beef up the internal functions for listening to a patient and engaging with them without legislation—there is no requirement for that. You could invest more resource in that, and you could do the same with Healthwatch. You could think about the resourcing of the structures and the support they receive, so you could make that whole system better without legislating to get rid of it. As Sarah said, the NHS changes are a distraction at a time when we should be moving on with focusing on patient care.

[Sojan Joseph]

Q Mr Lant, I am trying to understand a bit more about the patient experience and improvement in care that Healthwatch brings. My understanding is that when a patient raises a complaint with the local provider, it usually gets investigated by a local service manager or a matron, but when somebody is not confident about raising a complaint with the local provider, they go to Healthwatch, and that complaint usually filters down for the same local service manager or matron to investigate it—we have seen that happening. Patient experience is not being improved without local accountability or local change. Can you explain why you are concerned about abolishing Healthwatch and bringing more accountability to local ICBs or local authorities, which may improve patient experience and patient care?

Jacob Lant: The issue is that the system—the NHS provider, the commissioner or whoever is picking up the individual complaint—will treat that as an individual incident to look into. Healthwatch may support the individual to raise that complaint or that individual piece of feedback, but the collective learning across that is more important, and it is pulling out the themes that are consistent across multiple bits of feedback, both positive and negative, that makes the difference. We see that evidence and insight from Healthwatch making a difference in local and national policy. It might not feel like that to the individual patient, but things like the creation of a single patient record exist in part because of a lot of campaigning by local healthwatch on the issue of people having to repeatedly tell clinicians about their experiences.

It also could be issues to do with not being able to find a dentist, for example; the system will treat that as an individual incident of helping someone who is trying to find a dentist or not, but Healthwatch could use that insight to petition and push for national change around the commissioning of a service like dentistry. A topic like administration of care, which Healthwatch, National Voices and the King’s Fund have all worked on together, is invisible from the way that the system perceives performance at the moment, but because we listen thematically to patient experience, we can push for a much greater focus on things like the basics of communication and keeping patients up to date on what is happening with their care, which really matter. Healthwatch is thematically looking at patient feedback differently from the way that system does, and that is something I fear may be lost.

--- Later in debate ---

[Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

Q Dr Benneyworth, you mentioned protected disclosures, and you said that individuals or organisations may have a fear of reprisals. Would you like to say anything more on that? What would you like to see from the CQC or in the Bill?

Dr Benneyworth: Yes, absolutely—we have seen that in so many of our investigations. It can often be exacerbated by different parts of the system working together.

To give you an example, we looked at mental health in-patient settings. There is national guidance that says that people should not use risk assessment tools around self-harm, but when we looked we found that, on the ground, everyone was using these tools. We asked why that was, and we were given two reasons. One was that the IT systems were set up such that you could not move past the front screen without ticking one of the risk assessment boxes, and the other reason was that people were fearful about being in front of a coroner and asked about risk assessment tools, so we took action on both those fronts.

Another thing that we see is about speaking up. There are definite inequalities at play when people are speaking up. We have seen significant racial discrimination. We wrote a report about temporary workers. We find that people working as locums or agency staff often feel a lot less able to speak up if there are patient concerns. If you are black or from other global majority groups, to be able to speak up is even harder. On the back of that, we made a recommendation to the National Guardian’s Office, and it has done a lot of work with temporary workers, looking at how we can improve their ability to speak up. We still have a huge way to go on culture generally, but particularly on discrimination and the inequalities that we see in every one of our investigations.

[Gregory Stafford]

Q I reiterate that I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group on patient safety. Dr Benneyworth and I have had many conversations about this issue.

I have two questions. The first is about the safe space. We have seen written evidence, and we have heard when others have attended the Health and Social Care Committee, about the fact that if HSSIB is placed inside the CQC, you could have the farcical situation of one set of CQC lawyers, who are representing HSSIB, suing or attempting to sue another set of CQC lawyers, who are looking out for the CQC situation, because they are trying to get information out of part of their own system. Is that parody or is it a possibility and real problem?

Dr Benneyworth: It is a problem and something that potentially could happen. I hope that we would work effectively to try to avoid that. Essentially, and just to reassure the Committee, if we see something of a criminal nature, if there are significant regulatory concerns, we have protocols in place to be able to escalate that. But there is a real risk that potentially, if we held information that the CQC needed in part of its regulatory function, in its enforcement function, we would not be able to share that, because of our legislation, and we would not want to share it, because we want to maintain the trust in the system. It would need to go to the High Court to be able to get hold of it.

[Gregory Stafford]

Q Just so that I am clear, you have internal protocols that would raise stuff if you saw something criminal, and if you were investigating something and potentially could not share the information, that would not prevent any of the multitude of other regulators that we have out there from investigating on their own something similar. Your investigation would not preclude them from being able to investigate as well.

Dr Benneyworth: No.

[Gregory Stafford]

Q Dr Dash, in her evidence, said that—I am slightly paraphrasing, so I hope I have not got this wrong—NHS England has a number of investigatory bodies that it has established recently, and that although they were not perfect, they were much better, and they could be doing this job. What is your response to that?

Dr Benneyworth: NHS England has an investigations unit that commissions regional and national investigations, sometimes from private organisations. We work very closely with the NHS England patient safety team. As I said, we have supported their work in rolling out local investigations around the patient safety incident response framework. We have been instrumental in supporting the training and education around that. We are the only safety investigator with protected disclosure. There is no other body that is like us and can do the same type of investigations in this country, and we are internationally looked at. In fact, I am doing a podcast with Canada tomorrow. Numerous countries are looking at us and saying, “We want the same thing.” There is a handful of investigators like us in Finland and Norway, and they have excellent safety outcomes for their patients, but the rest of the world is looking at us and trying to learn from us, and I am frequently asked to speak internationally about this.

[Gregory Stafford]

Q You are saying that you are a world leader.

Dr Benneyworth: We are—

[The Chair]

Very quickly.

[Gregory Stafford]

I think the answer was, “We are.”

[The Chair]

I am afraid we have come to the end of the session. I am sorry and I apologise to colleagues whom I did not manage to accommodate this time. Thank you very much for joining us, Dr Benneyworth. That was most helpful.

Examination of Witness

Sir Jeremy Hunt MP gave evidence.