Welsh Affairs

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I want to begin, as others have, by congratulating my good friend the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on securing today’s important debate. In keeping with this good spirit, I congratulate the Secretary of State on achieving two years in his esteemed and very important position. Like others, I also want to make brief reference to Lord Crickhowell, who died today. I knew him very well; he was a friend of mine. In fact, it was Lord Crickhowell who first appointed me to a public position many years ago, so in a sense he was responsible for starting me down the path that ended up with me speaking in the Chamber today.

It is important that we have a Welsh affairs debate associated with St David’s day. It is a special day for the people of Wales, when we celebrate the life of St David, and I want it to be a special day for the people of the United Kingdom as well.

When I was elected to this House, my ambition and intention was to further the interests of Wales—that applies to most of us in the Chamber—and to raise awareness of Welsh issues. We hear a lot about the importance of unity in the United Kingdom, and I agree, but fundamental to that is a recognition of the importance of Wales right across the United Kingdom. I wanted to build on the eight years I spent in the National Assembly, developing the relationship with the bigger country of England. That is in part what I want to speak about today.

I also want to say in this introductory phase of my contribution how thrilled I was when five weeks ago we were able to speak in the House in the Welsh language. Not only was that a huge thing for those of us who have made a big commitment to Welsh—I made the commitment to learn Welsh—but it was a hugely important statement about the importance of Wales and the fact that Wales is different. There is nothing more unique to us than our language and that was a very important day for the nation of Wales.

Today’s debate is a general debate, so a huge range of issues could fall within its remit without attracting your opprobrium, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to speak fairly briefly on three issues that relate specifically to mid-Wales. They are very different, but they have the common theme that they are all cross-border issues. They are hugely important in England as well as Wales, and the theme is that the two sides of the border have to work closely if we are to deliver the services that people deserve. The three issues are: the delivery of secondary health care; cross-border road schemes; and the Pumlumon project. I shall speak briefly on each of them in turn.

There is no secondary health care in Powys, and 80% of the people in my constituency go over the border to Shropshire for their secondary care, so what happens in Shropshire matters to us. There are two issues involved. For several years, there has been a reluctance to tackle the difficult decisions involved in delivering the sort of care that we need. We desperately need a decision from the Government about the funding to provide what we call a future-fit service locally. We have been pressing for it for ages, and it is crucial that we get it quite soon. If we do not, we will be able to deliver fewer and fewer services in Shropshire and mid-Wales.

My second point about healthcare is the importance of locking Shropshire and mid-Wales together when it comes to health issues. Most treatments now have a population threshold. There are 450,000 people living in Shropshire, but the threshold for a lot of treatments is now 500,000, including for radiology, as we saw recently. There are not enough people in Shropshire to justify a specialist radiotherapy department there, but mid-Wales is also involved in this. There are more than 500,000 people in mid-Wales, and if we took the two populations together, as we should, we would cross that threshold. This is not just a theoretical issue; it is a hugely practical and fundamental one.

The second issue I want to touch on is road schemes. The economy of mid-Wales in particular—and those of the north and of the south—is very much dependent on the ability to travel east and west. The Severn valley is crucial to where I live. The biggest disadvantage of devolution has been the complications that it has caused to cross-border road schemes. The Pant-Llanymynech scheme is a major scheme. It is well known, and it will provide access from mid-Wales to Manchester and the north. The road that I want to talk about, however, is the one from the Severn valley through to Shropshire and on to the west midlands. It involves about seven miles between Welshpool and the English border, and it is absolutely crucial. This should have been developed years ago, but there are problems. From the Welsh perspective, the cost-benefit analysis is great, and the Welsh Government would be perfectly happy to pay for it, but there has been no cost-benefit analysis on the English side at all. We need a close working relationship between both sides of the border to ensure that we deliver schemes that benefit everyone, and that is the first project that I would like to see the mid-Wales growth deal looking into.

The third issue that I want to touch on is the Pumlumon project. I share the feelings of the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake) about this amazing scheme, but it cannot be delivered just in Wales. We are talking about 100,000 acres of land, mostly peat land, between Machynlleth, Eglwys and Aberystwyth. It is a huge area, and over the decades, it has been drained. The water flows on to it whenever there is heavy rain, and it flows into England. There would be huge benefits to re-wetting it under the Pumlumon project. They would be a big benefit for diversity, and a major community benefit because of the funding associated with it—it would keep communities together. The smallholders would be able to remain there. People are very happy about it; they have already shown that they want to do this. The major benefit, however, would be to England—to all those towns and cities down the Severn valley. Millions of pounds are involved, and the Welsh Government cannot be expected to pay that. We need a cross-border arrangement. The UK Government and the Welsh Government need to work together to deliver what I think would be a wonderful scheme. Whenever I go to a meeting at which the mid-Wales growth deal is being discussed, I shall probably bore for Wales by referring to this on three or four occasions.

I am a great supporter of devolution, and the final point I want to make is that we have to be committed. Like some Members who have spoken, I opposed it, but when I was driving home from the count, I accepted the result straightaway. I have done what I can to make a success of it, and I still do. It is hugely important, but we need a relationship in which the Government in Cardiff and the Government in Westminster work together in the common interests of Wales and England whenever cross-border issues are involved.

Wales Bill

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Ping Pong: House of Commons
Tuesday 24th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I welcome those comments about periodic reviews as opposed to using 10-year-old statistics. I also have some concerns about the framework’s dispute resolution mechanism, but there may not be the time to discuss them here. We may be able to resolve that problem in future discussions.

I want to finish by emphasising the fact that both Governments lack ambition. In the Lords, Plaid Cymru called for a £2 billion capital expenditure limit, which was supported by Labour. However, under pressure from the devo-sceptic Tory party, we can see in amendment 9 that we are left with a capital expenditure limit of exactly half that. Although I am pleased that a fiscal framework is finally in place, I cannot avoid the observation that Wales is once again being short-changed through a lack of vision and ambition.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in a debate that is hugely important to me. As someone who served as a Member of the National Assembly for Wales for eight years before my six years here, almost all of my political life has been dogged—if I can use that word—by Wales Bills of one sort or another. I do not know whether I will still be a Member of this Parliament when the next round comes but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) said, I am sure that there will be one.

It is a great honour to debate a particularly important Wales Bill, which makes devolution much more stable than it has been since it was first established in 1999. I could speak about a host of matters and on some of them there would be disagreement across the Floor of the House, but two principles are hugely important to me. The first relates to the fiscal issues, which I will come to, but I believe also that moving to a reserved powers model is of fundamental importance. There will be disagreements about what should be reserved to the Westminster Parliament, but, generally speaking, moving to a reserved powers mode will be a big step forward. People—including me—have been calling for it since 1999, and we should not forget that in the discussions about finance.

This debate is about financial issues, one of which relates to borrowing powers. I greatly support the measure, which gives the Welsh Government new and important borrowing powers. Other Members have suggested that the ceiling is not high enough, but I have heard Mark Drakeford, the responsible Minister in Cardiff, say that the Welsh Government will probably not borrow the £1 billion allowed in the first instance. I believe that the borrowing power will make a significant difference to the way the Welsh Government can operate.

Exiting the EU: Businesses in Wales

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Will the Minister take an intervention from me?

[Guto Bebb]

I will of course give way to my Parliamentary Private Secretary—no, had I better not. Certainly, the debate has been interesting, but hon. Members are well aware that Members have responsibilities in different parts of the House and are in different debates that are going on, and it is unworthy of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) to try to score that political point.

Going back to the success of the Welsh economy, we need to identify the fact that small businesses are a great part of that success story. Small businesses are growing. Indeed, we have seen the figures that show that small businesses’ growth in turnover in Wales has been among the best in the UK during the past year. The best performing part of the entire UK has been small businesses in Cardiff, which have enjoyed 12% growth in turnover, outpacing the situation in London. I pay tribute to all small businesses in Cardiff that have been part of that success story.

Oral Answers to Questions

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I welcome the hon. Lady to her place on the Front Bench. I fully accept the comments made about support for the concept in the Swansea area, and I can confirm that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already met Charles Hendry to discuss the project. It is not my position to prejudge an independent report, but I assure her that the views of the residents and local authorities in south Wales are known to Charles Hendry.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

7. What recent assessment he has made of the contribution of the farming sector to the economy in Wales.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

11. What recent assessment he has made of the contribution of the farming sector to the economy in Wales.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The voice of Montgomeryshire must be heard.

[Glyn Davies]

Does the Minister share my concerns and those of the Welsh farming unions about the administration of the single farm payment scheme in Wales, particularly in relation to cross-border issues? Will he agree to meet the farming unions at the Royal Welsh show next week to discuss this serious issue?

[Guto Bebb]

I agree completely with my hon. Friend that any delays in payments to the farming community are problematic. This issue is devolved to the Welsh Government and it is one I have already discussed with farming unions. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be at the Royal Welsh next week, subject to the decisions of the next Prime Minister, and meetings have been arranged with farming unions at that event, which is undoubtedly the premier farming event of the whole United Kingdom.

Wales Bill

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention because it provides a great insight into the Secretary of State’s thinking. If that is his argument on fiscal powers, he should align himself with the Labour party, which opposes Wales having income tax powers for exactly the same reason. This is about whether one believes that the Welsh Government can use such levers effectively to create jobs in our country. That intervention is indicative of the Secretary of State’s mindset.

Given that corporation tax is devolved in Northern Ireland, I hope that the Secretary of State will do his job, stand up for Wales and make it a devolved tax in Wales, as was recommended by the Silk commission’s report.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Sir Alan, for calling me to speak in this hugely important debate. All Welsh Members recognise the Bill as an attempt to create a stable, long-lasting devolutionary settlement for Wales that provides financial accountability to the Welsh Government. I associate myself with many of the comments from both sides of the Committee, although I do not agree with everything that has been said.

I want to refer specifically to amendments 158 to 160, which have featured quite a lot in today’s debate. I have been inspired to speak in part by the contribution of the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, in which he was positive about energy. There is real potential for Wales to become an energy giant. I have been to Dinorwig about three times and have been inspired by the history of what Wales has achieved in energy production. We have even had—the shadow Secretary of State will not agree with me on this subject—nuclear energy generation in Wales on a considerable scale. It has formed part of a real decarbonisation effort, which I have supported and which we may well carry on at Wylfa B. We have the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon project and other such projects, and there is wonderful potential for Wales if they go ahead. At this stage, the issue is clearly one of whether they will become financially viable. There is no doubt that the tidal range is amazing, and I certainly hope that those schemes can be approved and that Wales can carry on its history of making a contribution to energy generation.

I am also inspired by those who tabled the amendments, including my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). The devolution of energy is a difficult issue for me, and I want to run through the reasons why. My concern is about onshore wind farms and the implications of onshore wind, particularly for my constituency. I am desperately keen to support the devolution process and keen that the Wales Bill be successful, particularly in relation to financial accountability. The Bill will enable the Assembly to become a Parliament and to grow up. However, the Welsh Government’s history when it comes to onshore wind causes huge problems, certainly in my constituency. They are landscape vandals—landscape philistines. That has been the general approach of the Welsh Government to onshore wind in my constituency. There are probably more wind turbines in Montgomeryshire than anywhere else in Wales.

Turning to the scale of what the Welsh Government want, they wanted another 500 turbines and a 40 km, 400 kV cable into Shropshire, which would have devastated my entire constituency. Powys County Council had to spend a huge amount of money simply to defend its constituency. The Ministers know what I am about to say, as they have heard me say it before. The only reason I can support this Bill is, ironically, that the Welsh Government have behaved in a centralising way when the UK Government devolved power to local authorities to decide on onshore wind farms. On the same day they devolved this to local authorities in Wales, the Welsh Government took that power back to themselves, like some old Soviet republic grabbing power to itself and away from the people. It was scandalous but the Welsh Government did that.

Wales Bill

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

I rise to speak to amendments 32, 33 and 38 to 45. My hon. Friends will seek to catch your eye later, Sir Alan, to speak on the aspects that concern them. I also wish to speak to clause 18 stand part.

Amendment 32 is a technical amendment. Clause 8 provides that Assembly legislation dealing with certain protected matters—the name of the Assembly, who is entitled to vote at Assembly elections, the voting system and so on—would require a super-majority of the Assembly. It requires the Presiding Officer to decide whether an Assembly Bill relates to a protected matter and to state that decision, and I do not disagree with any of that.

However, the clause then requires that that statement be in both English and Welsh and that the form of that statement be dealt with in the Assembly’s Standing Orders. While we agree that such statements should be made in both languages, amendment 32, which is in my name and those of my hon. Friends, would remove those two provisions. It does that for two reasons. First, including them is at odds with much of the rest of the Bill, which recognises the Assembly as a mature legislator and allows it to determine its own internal arrangements rather than what is required by Westminster. Secondly, both Welsh and English are official languages of the Assembly—as someone rather paradoxically put it, English is a Welsh language in that respect—and both must be treated equally. Therefore, providing that the Presiding Officer’s statement must be made in both languages is unnecessary—nugatory.

Amendment 33 seeks to amend clause 12, which inserts a new section into the Government of Wales Act 2006. This would replace the previous arrangements for financial controls and provide that Welsh legislation should make provision for the matters contained within that section, such as accounts to be prepared of their expenditure and receipts by the First Minister or other Ministers who draw sums from the Welsh consolidated fund. We believe that the new section should include basic safeguards in the form of minimum requirements that Welsh legislation should provide for, and that reflect good governance. Section 124 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 currently provides for authorisation by the Assembly. Amendment 33 proposes that funds should be issued from the Welsh Consolidated Fund only in accordance with legislation or authorisation by the Assembly, and can be utilised only for the purposes for which they were authorised. This simple addition to the Bill would improve accountability and responsibility, and it would reflect the provisions for Scotland—that is, section 65 of the Scotland Act 1998.

Amendments 38 to 45 are technical in nature. They amend clause 15, which provides that if the Assembly changes its name, then any reference in legislation, instruments and documents to the “National Assembly for Wales” is to be read as a reference to the new name. This saves having to change each reference to the “National Assembly for Wales”, of which there may be many thousands. However, the clause neglects the fact that Assembly Acts are prepared bilingually, and so references to the Assembly and the commission will be in Welsh and English. Moreover, it does not address the issue of legislation, instruments and documents that refer to “Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru”. The amendment clarifies that any reference in legislation, instruments and documents to “Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru” is also to be read as a reference to the new name in Welsh.

The same issues arise with regard to any change in the names of the National Assembly for Wales Commission or Acts of the National Assembly for Wales, which are also addressed in the amendment. The heading of the section inserted into the Government of Wales Act 2006 by clause 15 refers to “translation of references”. The amendment would change that to “consequential provision”. That is more appropriate, given the overall effect of clause 15, and avoids confusion between legal translation—that is, consequential provisions—and linguistic translation of references. I look forward to the Minister’s response and hope that he might consider adopting some of these changes on Report.

I now turn briefly to clause 18 stand part. This clause shows the speed of political change. After nearly five years of discussions about Silk and powers for Wales, we are now providing that Wales Acts are relevant to the European Communities Act 1972, although the UK has just voted to leave the EU. Obviously, this provision should remain in the Bill. We are still in the EU, and unpicking EU legislation from our domestic legislation will take many years and will not be easy. There are questions as to how decisions will be taken about which EU legislation remains.

I hope that the UK Government, of whatever stripe, but particularly of a right-wing Conservative complexion, will not take it upon themselves to decide what is, or what is not, relevant to Wales. We have already heard the comments from one Conservative leadership contender at the weekend calling for a “strong Union”, and we suspect that we know what that actually means. We need to know where Wales stands and how these powers will be determined. So-called Henry VIII powers, lying either with the UK Government or with Whitehall bureaucrats, will not be democratically acceptable.

My party, Plaid Cymru, is the official Opposition in Wales and the second largest party after the elections two months ago. The balance of competences review did not consider Wales in particular depth, but, post-Brexit, we must consider the question of which powers should be in Wales’s hands and not those of Westminster. The vote in Wales to leave the EU was not a vote to centralise power in Westminster.

I draw the House’s attention to today’s Assembly debate on a motion standing in the name of our former colleague, Simon Thomas, which states that the Assembly

“believes that following the withdrawal of the UK from the EU, provisions should be made to ensure that all legislation giving effect to EU Directives or Regulations pertaining to areas such as environmental protection, workers' rights, food safety and agriculture are retained in UK and Welsh law unless they are actively repealed by the relevant Parliament.”

The debate will repay close reading.

Whether or not Vote Leave was in a position to make the promises it made, they must be honoured by the Westminster Government because they were the Brexit promises that people voted for. That means additional money for the NHS through the Barnett formula, as well as protecting funding for our farmers and regional and structural funds post-2020.

It is right for clause 18 to remain part of the Bill, as it will be relevant until any official departure from the European Union takes place. However, the clause, like so many others, shows how the Bill has already been overtaken by events and why Wales should have so much more power than it provides. The Bill is far from being a once-and-for-all settlement, and we give notice that we will return to this matter later in this Parliament.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Sir Alan, for calling me to speak on this hugely important Bill. The work leading up to it has played a significant part in my time in politics.

I pay tribute to the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). I have a special reason for welcoming him to his position: of all the other Welsh Members of Parliament, I am probably the nearest to being an octogenarian, and his wonderful example gives me promise and ambition for the future. If he can do it, there is no reason why I cannot. I thank him for that, as well as for the great wit with which he has entertained me over many years.

The Bill is wide-ranging. Inevitably, opinions on it will differ and there will be an element of compromise. In his response to earlier amendments, the shadow Secretary of State said that we need to be pragmatic. We all have different opinions, including in my own party. We all, I think, want this Bill to go through, but we need to accept that we are going to have to compromise.

The big compromise that I have to make relates to the fact that the Bill transfers energy powers to the Welsh Government, the idea of which fills me with horror. I would find it difficult to support the Bill, except that the Welsh Government have, disgracefully, already taken unto themselves those powers through their local government responsibilities. That makes the Bill’s transfer of energy powers much less damaging to mid-Wales and much less of an attack on the people of mid-Wales than it would otherwise have been.

The intention behind the Bill is to provide a much more stable, long-lasting and permanent settlement for Wales and to provide clarity on it. I am not sure about the word “permanent”. I do not think it is wise to have a Wales Bill every five years, which is pretty much what we have been doing. This is not permanent: I think we will come back to developing devolution at a pace at which we can bring the people of Wales with us. Plaid Cymru Members spoke earlier about the judicial position. When the body of Welsh law is no longer tiny and grows to be substantial, we may have to revisit the issue in the future, and the same may be true of other issues that we have not entirely foreseen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones]

I speak in support of amendment 11 on income tax powers. I am interested in much of the Bill, but during the past week, in the aftermath of the Brexit result, a thought has come to me. I am now absolutely determined that, like highly calorific chocolate, constitutional experts are to be valued, savoured and enjoyed, but not indulged in very frequently. I spent the referendum evening sitting around a table in a television studio in the company of a constitutional expert—I would argue that he is probably one of Wales’s finest. As we looked at the results coming in, many of them fairly miserable, the constitutional expert sprang to life and said, “Do you realise the impact of that on parts of the Wales Bill? Do you realise its impact on this and on that?” I sat there thinking that I was a little more interested about potential job losses at Airbus, what would happen to farms and all the rest of it.

Let us get back to the amendment. I have always supported a referendum on devolving income tax. Our amendment 11 would do something really practical. We argue that income tax powers should not be devolved to the Welsh Assembly until a full fiscal framework for Wales has been approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. That is an agenda of total respect.

I will tell the House why that is important. We all sit around discussing what it means to be Welsh, our patriotism and our different interpretations of it, often with the view that we have the one complete, absolute truth on the issue. But there is one thing that matters more and more, especially in the aftermath of the Brexit result. I can think of a million ways in which every single one of us in this Chamber could express our Welsh patriotism, but there is one way we can never do so: by supporting a deal under which ordinary Welsh people become poorer. That must be our litmus test, and that is why we must not only vote on this issue in both Chambers of this House, but we must also place it in the hands of our Welsh National Assembly.

I agree with part of what the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) said, but it is a pity that he has an obsession about never wanting a Labour Government in Wales again. Last week the Secretary of State said some interesting and thoughtful things on television in the wake of the EU referendum.

[Glyn Davies]

Let me clarify my view on that. We should not be in a position where we never have a Labour Government in Wales from time to time, but I object to the idea that we should never have anything but a Labour Government, and the assumption that Wales must always have a Labour Government or be led by Labour. We need variation—let us have somebody else, and then Labour can come back.

[Susan Elan Jones]

It does not much matter what I or the hon. Gentleman think—it has far more to do with what the electorate in Wales think. In all seriousness, this is about how we get the best deal for people in Wales, and for those of us who have never had an ideological objection to the Assembly having tax-raising powers, what we are proposing is sensible, workable, and goes with the grain of the majority of opinion in the Assembly, in this House and across Wales. The hon. Gentleman will probably disagree with me, but he said something interesting about how the Welsh Assembly, which was elected in 1997 with a small majority, has turned into something that very few people in Wales would want to get rid of, and quite right too. I think that this change and incremental increase in devolution, and the support for further fiscal powers, is right and proper, and it is time that the House supported it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in this important debate, Mr Gray.

In opening, I say that it is a pleasure to welcome the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) to his place. He is the Member of Parliament for my parents-in-law, and an active constituency Member. We all know how active he is, usually on the Back Bench, but it is a pleasure to see him on the Front Bench. I extend a welcome to the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris)—I have some roots in Swansea, having been brought up in that part of the world. I also pay tribute to the hon. Members for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) and for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), for the work that they have put into consistent scrutiny of the Bill in its early stages. I am grateful for the co-operation and support they gave me as we sought to bring about broad agreement on where the Bill stands. There is not agreement on everything, but I am grateful to all Members who have contributed for the broad consensus that has come forward.

Clauses 8 to 21 and the amendments related to them deal with changes to Assembly processes, the devolution of income tax powers, and the functions of Welsh Ministers. Clause 8 would insert a new section into the Government of Wales Act that determines what types of protected subject matter would, if contained in an Assembly Bill, require that that Bill be passed by a super-majority, which is two thirds of all Assembly Members. The protected subject matters in clause 8 include the name of the Assembly, those entitled to a vote in the Assembly elections, the system used in Assembly elections, the specification or number of Assembly constituencies and regions, and the number of Members returned for each constituency or region. These are in line with the protected subject matters included in the Scotland Act 2016, with two exceptions. The Bill provides that any change to the name of the National Assembly for Wales be subject to a super-majority requirement. The Bill also provides for the specification of constituencies, regions or equivalent electoral areas as protected subject matter. The super-majority requirement will ensure that there is broad support across the Assembly for those fundamental changes.

In the first instance, it would be for the Presiding Officer to determine and make a statement on whether or not an Assembly Bill relates to any of those protected subject matters. It is this part of the clause that amendment 32, tabled by Plaid Cymru, seeks to change. The amendment would remove the requirement for the Presiding Officer’s statement to be made in both the English language and the Welsh language. It would also remove the requirement for the Assembly’s Standing Orders to determine the form of the statement and the manner in which it is to be made.

It goes without saying that the Government are fully committed to the Welsh language. The Wales Office has two Ministers who speak Welsh, of which I am one, and a third Minister who is learning Welsh. It is good to see that the political tension around the Welsh language seems to be a relic of history, which is, I am sure we would all agree, a positive move. But the intention behind proposed new sections 11A(5) and 111A(6) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, as inserted by clause 8, is to ensure that the Welsh language is treated equally with English when the new super-majority processes are incorporated into the workings of the Assembly.

[Glyn Davies]

Does the Secretary of State agree that it is outrageous for those organisations supporting the Welsh language to assume that because we are leaving the European Union the support for the Welsh language will in some way be greatly diminished? The UK Government and Welsh Government have been huge supporters of the Welsh language, and there is no earthly reason why that should not continue in future.

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. A broad consensus has developed on the Welsh language over the past few decades, which is very different from what we might have seen before.

Wales Bill

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

What is the position where an overhead power line goes through England and Wales? I am talking not just about the connection point but about a significant part of the power line. Is the position on that clear in the Bill?

[Alun Cairns]

That relates to the discussions with the National Grid, which, quite obviously, has an interest in the matter. I will happily provide further detail to my hon. Friend if he has specific examples that he would like to pursue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Davies]

As much as it saddens me, I actually quite agree with the hon. Gentleman. The record so far suggests that it would be better to have devolution to local authorities than to a centralised Government in Cardiff Bay.

[Glyn Davies]

To follow on from the point that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) made, devolution to local government is fine. The British Government have devolved planning to local authorities, but the first thing the Welsh Government did was to take that power away from local authorities and centralise it to themselves. Planning powers are devolved to local authorities in England but centralised to Cardiff in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my friend and neighbour the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who, as always—but he is not even listening to me as I congratulate him on the quality of his speech! It is also a pleasure to have been in the Chamber for most of the debate, and to have heard some fairly strong opinions delivered in such a reasonable way. It has been a constructive debate, and it has been pretty enjoyable.

I was pleased to see a Wales Bill in the Gracious Speech, although I believe that every Queen’s Speech since I have been a Member of Parliament has contained a Wales Bill. I think it was the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) who said that we did not have many opportunities to look at the constitution of Wales and change it, but it seems to me that we have such an opportunity pretty well every year. I do not know whether we shall have one next year; that will depend on the success of the Secretary of State.

There has been a fair degree of agreement across the House today. I have sensed that everyone wants to support the Bill, although many Members will clearly want to see some changes to it. I, too, was surprised by the speed at which Second Reading arrived. It is fairly obvious to me that the Secretary of State is a man of action and a man in a hurry, given that it was only a few days ago that we first knew that there was to be a Wales Bill.

The Secretary of State told us at the beginning of the debate that his two objectives were clarity and accountability, and those objectives will form the two most significant parts of the speech that I intend to make. The Secretary of State also said that he hoped that we would be able to end the squabbling between the Welsh and United Kingdom Governments for good, and that we would have a permanent settlement. I wish him the best of luck with that, because I should be surprised if we Welsh managed to stop squabbling.

Clarity is a key aim of the Bill. Like the Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), who spoke earlier, I was opposed to devolution in 1997. Indeed, I campaigned against it, and voted against it on 18 September. However, I was on the losing side. The National Assembly for Wales was set up, and I became a Member of it for eight years.

One reason why I opposed it was the obvious lack of certainty and clarity on how the devolution process would develop. It did not seem to me as if it was stable or could last. The leader of the Conservative party in Wales at that time, who was opposed to devolution, did not think that there was any certainty to the process, and a leading Labour party member described the process as being a magical mystery tour with no obvious end. My hon. Friend suggested that the end might be like Alton Towers. The truth is that we do not know, and I am still not convinced, even with this Bill, that we can ever actually reach the end, because in terms of constitutional settlements, there will always be debate and change. One day sometime in the future there may be a Wales Bill that reduces the amount of power that goes to the Assembly. Who knows?

I became Chair of the legislation Committee in the National Assembly quite early on, and partly through my experience of that I became convinced that we needed to have a reserved powers model, rather than the conferred powers model: that all power should be devolved unless there was a very good reason why it should not be. That has informed my attitude to devolution ever since. If something can reasonably and sensibly be devolved, I think it should be, and I think the move to a devolved model delivers that. It is a much more permanent settlement and is much less likely to lead to visits to the Supreme Court for arguments to be heard. I greatly support that, therefore. It is one of the two fundamental drivers behind the Bill, and one of the two issues that make me very keen to see it go through.

The second one, however, is more controversial: accountability, and in particular financial accountability. I know that there is some disagreement, certainly on the Conservative Benches, on this issue, but I became convinced many years ago that responsibility for a significant level of income tax was crucial if the Welsh Assembly was to become an accountable body that engaged with the people of Wales at election time. People could look at both sides of the ledger—how money was raised as well as how it was spent. When I first took that view and espoused it publicly, there were not many people in my party who agreed with me, but it has been consistently and solidly my opinion ever since, and it is as strong today as it has ever been.

On a number of occasions at the last election I was asked about my position on this. I said very clearly that my view was that we should devolve a significant proportion of income tax—probably the ability to levy up to 50% of income tax—and until that power was devolved, I could not see how the Welsh Assembly could be seen as a Parliament.

Part of this Bill is about giving the Welsh Assembly the name “Parliament”, but how can we have a Parliament that does not have the ability to levy the most important tax that people understand? Without that, it cannot properly be described as a Parliament; there have to be powers over income tax.

Members have referred to the £2.5 billion that is already devolved to the National Assembly, but it is income tax that engages people. When voters in an Assembly election are looking at what parties to support, income tax is what engages them. They consider not just the parties’ spending promises, but how they are going to raise that money. It is crucial that we go down that road.

Apologies to Labour Members, but it is a weakness to assume that the Welsh Government will always be a Labour Government. There will not always be a Labour Government in Cardiff. It is not the Welsh Assembly that passes the laws; it is the Labour Government who do so. If we can properly engage with people at election time—financial accountability is a key part of this—we might be able to have something other than a Labour Government. We might be able to have a genuine view among the Welsh people and the possibility of a Conservative Government in Wales.

There will be debates on many other parts of the Bill as well, and we have already talked about a separate legal jurisdiction for Wales. There is no doubt that a body of Welsh law is developing. It is a small body at the moment, but it will grow. It will be a long time, however, before it becomes a significant body of law and I do not feel that it is justifiable to have a separate legal jurisdiction to deal with the limited amount of Welsh laws that we have. I cannot justify having a separate jurisdiction from the current England and Wales jurisdiction.

There has also been quite a lot of debate about the justice impact assessments. We removed the necessity test, which was pretty important. Almost everybody thought that that was the right thing to do. However, it seems unreasonable that there should be no mechanism within an institution to assess the impact of the laws it passes on any other institution. All this means is that when the Welsh Government pass legislation, they will have to assess the impact of that legislation on other legislation. That seems entirely reasonable, and I suspect that every other legislative body in the world does it, so I really cannot see why this should be an issue.

Policing has also been an issue. Perhaps this is just my view, but I have never been opposed in principle to the devolution of policing. However, we cannot support the devolution of policing to Wales until a very strong case can be made that it would improve policing there. We need to know how it would be improved and whether the new arrangement would work well for England and Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Glyn Davies]

Are you intervening on me or on the hon. Gentleman? Go on!

[Simon Hart]

I thought it might be helpful, before my hon. Friend replied to the Plaid Cymru intervention, to take careful note of the fact that the Dyfed-Powys police helicopter has not been lost, and that it would be a gross misrepresentation of the truth to claim that it has been.

[Glyn Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend; that is exactly what I was going to say.

I also want to touch on the question of devolution in regard to energy. We all pay a price when we support a Bill that is as comprehensive as this one, because there are often parts of the Bill with which we are very uncomfortable, and I have to say that devolving power over wind farms up to 350 MW to the Welsh Government really sticks in my craw. For me, that is a high price to pay to support the Bill. Perhaps I did not make what I meant absolutely clear in an earlier intervention, but we know that the Welsh Labour Government—perhaps supported by some of the other parties—are hugely enthusiastic about covering mid-Wales with wind turbines, wind farms and pylons. There has been a huge battle to try to stop them, but the Welsh Government are very keen to do it.

On 1 March this year—St David’s day—the United Kingdom Government passed powers over onshore wind to local government across England and Wales. In England, local government now has the power to make decisions on wind farms of any size, and that power has also been devolved to Wales. On that same day, the Welsh Government took that power unto themselves. In Wales, everything over 25 MW is therefore now decided by the Welsh Government in Cardiff, but in England local authorities decide this. That is one reason why I find this part of the Bill to be extremely difficult to support.

I am looking forward to the Committee stage, where we will debate a series of aspects of the Bill, as we are not able to touch on everything today. The Bill is really worth while. We can perhaps change one or two parts of it, but it is a good Bill that will bring more stability, more security and more democracy, in the sense that through financial accountability people will be more engaged with the democratic process than has ever been the case in Wales before. That is why I very much hope that the Bill makes its way through the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this important debate on the next stage of Welsh devolution. We have heard a range of insightful contributions from Members from across the Chamber, including from those valiant souls who have served on the Welsh Affairs Committee and did much of the pre-legislative scrutiny. We are deeply grateful to them all. Their inquiry into the Bill was quite an undertaking, and it is important to thank them properly for it.

Our debate has been very positive. I will speak about some contributions, and apologise that I will not be able to go into greater depth, but it would not be on for me to speak for 80 minutes—we do not believe in letting Ministers off the hook that way.

The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, was once an arch devo-sceptic, but I think he is thawing a bit—on 24 June he might even decide he likes the European Union. He discussed a range of constitutional issues, complete with theme park analogies.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) gave a wide-ranging speech. He talked about visionaries, and about how devolution is about practical measures that improve people’s lives, stating that we always need to take the people of Wales with us. That is very important. He mentioned many other things, including the important debate about votes at 16. We will hear more on that on another day, I think.

The right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones)—a former Secretary of State, of course—raised a number of concerns about the reserved powers model and various aspects of income tax varying powers, along with the fact that no referendum has been promised.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) gave a characteristically wide-ranging speech. I am amazed that he was around with that placard in nineteen-fifty-whatever-it-was, but I believe him. As he discussed the current democratic discourse, and spoke of the Chartists and of Cymru Fydd, he reminded me—I will come on to this again later—that there has been a very proud Welsh Labour tradition of support for devolution, even if it has taken us a little time to bring everyone else on board.

The hon. Member for Gower (Byron Davies) expressed concerns about the introduction of income tax powers without a referendum, as well as concerns about levels of scrutiny. My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) raised the practical point of the importance of measuring our work by its impact on the lives of ordinary people, and how we can empower ordinary people in Wales.

The hon. Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) discussed numerous aspects of strengthening the Welsh Assembly. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) raised many issues, including the welcoming of the reserved powers model. He spoke of his fears of being taken to the Supreme Court if we do not get the Bill exactly right. Lord knows we need to get the Bill exactly right, because life is too short to keep coming back here every year.

The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) expressed what I think Sir Humphrey might have called “a few concerns”. He said that he felt the Welsh Assembly Government were “not capable of handling the powers they have”. That is his comment, not mine.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) spoke of his party’s long-standing support for devolution. He also raised a number of issues, including some very thoughtful reflections on justice impact assessments. I suspect we might hear a bit more about them, too.

The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), in a wide-ranging speech, was broadly supportive of the Bill. He expressed his support for a reserved powers model and for income tax-levying powers. The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) raised several issues, some of them quite technical, including those relating to the justice impact assessment.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) gave a very thoughtful speech, raising a number of legal matters and the very important issue of access to justice. He paid tribute to the pre-legislative scrutiny of the Welsh Affairs Committee and to the Welsh Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. He spoke about Jim Griffiths—we do not talk about Jim Griffiths often enough in this place—who was pro-devolution and pro-UK. I am sure that if he were around now, he would have been pro-EU as well.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) spoke about a fiscal framework. He said that he hoped the next referendum in Wales would be on independence “when the time comes”. How wonderfully vague! I think Plaid Cymru AMs were probably a little more direct when they were having their conversations with Neil Hamilton. The one thing I would say is that we can always rely on the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr to be a bit partisan, so he should expect a bit of that from me, too.

Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Christina Rees) gave a very powerful and moving speech about access to justice and legal advice, and how that is reflected in the Bill.

The process that has led to the Bill has been long, and, I think we could say, rather fraught. When we last met to discuss the draft Bill at the Welsh Grand Committee, I think we can say that it did not exactly command consensus. Lawyers, academics, members of civic society—all those people in Wales who write at length, speak at length and normally disagree at length—all agreed: they felt it was time we sent the Bill back. The previous Welsh Assembly, of course, was unanimous in its criticism.

We have come a long way since then. While not perfect, this Bill is a big improvement. There is, however, still work to be done to deliver the clear, well-founded devolution settlement recommended by the Silk commission. I hope the Secretary of State will proceed in the spirit of consensus to make sure we get the Bill right, because none of us, absolutely none of us, wants to be here again in a few years’ time. We owe it to the Welsh electorate to deliver a coherent settlement that will allow the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Government to do their jobs and deliver for the people of Wales.

Welsh devolution has moved on at a rapid pace since Labour established the Assembly just 17 years ago. My late, departed constituent, one Owain Glyndwr of Corwen, would probably make the point that, as we have been waiting 600 years for our Welsh Parliament to reconvene, it is fair enough that we have been making up for lost time. But since then the Assembly has gained full law-making powers and what a delight that is.

[Glyn Davies]

I think Owain Glyndwr lived a significant part of his life in my constituency of Montgomeryshire—in Sycharth in Llansilin.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Boundary changes are upon us, so who knows what might happen.

Oral Answers to Questions

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let us hear Mr Glyn Davies.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

S4C is crucial to Wales, and particularly to the Welsh language. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State agree that the Welsh language is too often seen as the secondary language in Wales? It is not a secondary language; it is at least equal first.

[Alun Cairns]

This Government have a strong record of supporting S4C, and previous Conservative Governments have a strong record of establishing S4C, introducing the Welsh Language Act 1993 and turning around the decline in the Welsh language that we saw previously. We should be rightly proud of the language of our culture and our heritage—a true Conservative policy.

Welsh Affairs

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

You just got the nine minute bar in before I rose to speak, Madam Deputy Speaker, which is probably a good thing. This debate is close to my heart. I have always thought we should have a debate in the Chamber as near as possible to 1 March. I always think of it as a St David’s day debate, and that tends to lead me to take a non-adversarial approach.

I opened the debate last year, as the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) did this year. In preparation, I remember looking back through Hansard to see who had spoken in similar debates. I was rather hoping that my favourite British politician of all time, David Lloyd George—his statue rightly stands outside the door to the Chamber—had opened a similar debate, but he had not. He was a remarkable politician. A left-wing, radical Welsh speaker from Criccieth in north Wales whom nobody had ever heard of until he came here, he effectively led the Conservative party for six years in this place. Only a Welshman could pull off a trick like that, and he did. It was his daughter, Megan Lloyd George, who opened the first St David’s day debate in 1944; this debate does not have a long history. In her speech she focused mainly on two issues: the dire situation of the farming industry, particularly the dairy industry, and the way in which mid-Wales is ignored. Over the last 70 years, not an awful lot has changed. Welsh dairy farming is in seriously dire straits, and mid-Wales continues to be ignored.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Is it not the case that for a short period of time, mid-Wales was given some support by the Development Board for Rural Wales, which did a fantastic job for the locality?

[Glyn Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for offering me the opportunity for some degree of self-congratulation, but I had probably better not take it.

I particularly enjoyed one comment from Megan Lloyd George’s speech, which you may enjoy as well, Madam Deputy Speaker:

“No Englishman”—

I think she meant English women as well, but in those days women were not included as they are today—

“can understand the Welsh. However much he may try, and however sympathetic he may feel, he cannot get inside the skin and bones of a Welshman unless he be born again.”—[Official Report, 17 October 1944; Vol. 403, c. 2237.]

That explains quite a lot.

I am supportive of making St David’s day a national holiday, and I support the efforts of the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who is sponsoring a private Member’s Bill under which that decision would be devolved to the National Assembly for Wales. When I was a National Assembly Member, I declared 1 March to be a bank holiday in my office, and the staff were always told that they need not come in to work. If we are not able to agree a bank holiday, I could certainly do the same again.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for supporting that idea. Would he support Plaid Cymru Members if we tabled an amendment to the Wales Bill to remove public holidays from the list of matters reserved to Westminster?

[Glyn Davies]

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would expect me to go further than to say that that may well be an idea that could be supported and looked at.

St David was a great Welshman, pure in thought and pure in deed—a condition to which every good Welshman aspires. He performed awe-inspiring miracles. People usually refer to the most famous one, which was to raise the ground on which he was standing in order to be seen. The First Minister of Wales gave that very example in London today in a speech that I heard. What I find most interesting about it is the reflection made by the late Professor John Davies, another great Welshman, who said that he could not

“conceive of a miracle more superfluous than the creation of a new hill at Llanddewi Brefi.”

That is true, but it was still a very good trick to pull off.

I want to comment on three areas. They are points that I feel I ought to make in this place as often as I can. The first is on culture. I will then make some comments on sport. I also want to comment on the transfer of power, which will take place under the Wales Bill and to some extent under the constituency boundaries review, from this place to the National Assembly for Wales.

Wales is a great nation of culture—it is part of the Welsh DNA—but the one thing that is particularly special is the Welsh language. It makes Wales different. Not everybody can speak it, but it does make Wales very different from any other part of Britain. We can go to certain places and hear the indigenous language of Welsh being spoken on the street. I think that is very special.

A key part of supporting the Welsh language is Sianel Pedwar Cymru—S4C—the Welsh television channel. Every couple of years, we seem to have to fight very hard to maintain the public support that is needed for such a channel to continue. I hope that Members from all parties in this place will acknowledge its importance in ensuring that the Welsh language thrives and keeps Wales the special place that we all aspire to its being.

I want to talk briefly about sport, but perhaps not to say the obvious things. We know about the Welsh rugby team, and we wish them well. We have a magnificent captain in Sam Warburton. I say that not just for the quality of his play, but for the type of man he is. When I look back on everything I have seen in sport, I will never forget how, when he was so unjustly sent off in the semi-final of the world cup, he looked at the referee, nodded his head and walked off. He showed no disagreement with the referee, but accepted a really unfair decision—the referee’s judgment—and went off. That requires a level of self-control that I find absolutely amazing. To my mind, that makes him a magnificent man. I must of course also make reference to the Welsh football team, who are going to France for the European championship. We wish them well.

I want to mention two other sportsmen. One of them is an international figure, John Charles. I am of a certain age—a lot of Members in the Chamber are young—and in my view he was the best footballer that Britain has ever produced. He is never thought of as such and does not come to people’s minds, but he was an absolutely amazing man. He could leap, above everybody, like a salmon. Actually, he was a little bit like St David in that he could rise himself up, but he did not need a hill. He was appreciated across the world. Again, amazingly, he had the same Warburton-like concept of fairness. He was never sent off or cautioned in the whole of his career. How someone could play at his standard—one of the best players in the world—and never be cautioned, or never have an argument with anyone, is amazing.

The other person I want to mention is a local man from Welshpool, Barry Williams. I played rugby in the midlands and the north of England, and I eventually came back to Welshpool, where we had one team. Sometimes, we were lucky even to get out one full team. In terms of the first team, Welshpool is not much different now, but has up to 10 teams of youngsters—under-eights, under-10s, under-12s and under-14s—playing every week. Barry Williams organises all that. To my mind, he is the sort of individual who makes a massive contribution to Welsh sport and, indeed, to the spirit of encouraging young people to be part of society. I think that Welshpool rugby club—it is not the greatest rugby club in the world, although I thought it was when I played there—has the sort of man we need as an example to everyone right across Wales.

Finally, I want to say one or two things about the Wales Bill, which we have not yet seen. I am one of the few people to be disappointed by the pause. In the end, I acknowledge that there has to be a pause because of the delays in getting to where we are, but I would very much have liked it to be a subject for debate during the National Assembly election. It would have been a real issue of contention. Elections very often finish up as a debate about all sorts of things that are very much unrelated to what they should be about. If it had been an issue in the Welsh Assembly election, we could have focused on the future of Wales and how Wales is governed, which would have been very appropriate.

What I have seen of the Bill so far has pleased me. Clearly, the draft Bill did not receive a level of support that would have enabled it to go forward. We still have the reserved powers model, but it seems that the powers that are reserved will be greatly reduced—something we should all welcome. Other parts of the Bill are important. The inclusion of income tax responsibilities for the Welsh Government is crucial. It will give them a financial responsibility, rather than just a spending responsibility. That will enable the Welsh Government to grow up. There are a whole lot of other issues on which there is general agreement across all parties. Hopefully, in the end there will be a Bill that Members from all parties can support and that delivers the stable, long-term devolution settlement that all of us in this place would very much like to see.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) and other Members on contributing to today’s important debate in Westminster’s calendar—one that underlines the role that Wales plays within the United Kingdom. I welcome all the contributions of right hon. and hon. Members, and I will do my best to cover as many points raised within the limited time remaining.

The debate has been extremely wide ranging and has covered issues across the spectrum of the constitution, the European Union, the economy, public services, the tidal lagoon, the railways, the northern powerhouse and many other issues. I shall canter through as many as I can, but I want to spend some time on the Wales Bill in order to respond to the questions from the shadow Secretary of State for Wales and others. I shall address some other points, too.

Let me start my opening remarks by saying that Wales is in a good place. I am optimistic about our future. As a Government, we have been determined to make a difference to all parts of the UK, and while the job is not complete and there is always obviously more work to be done, we have taken positive action that sets the scene for a bright outlook for Wales. We are determined to work constructively with the Welsh Government, and whatever rhetoric we hear from individuals within Cardiff Bay, we are determined to respond in the measured fashion that the people of Wales deserve.

We want to secure our economic recovery, which was our greatest challenge when we came to office in 2010. Members will remember that unemployment was rising and for too many young people there was little prospect of employment, with the UK and Wales in a precarious financial position. Few Members, however, have mentioned the funding floor, so I was grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for doing so. This has been called for by Members for well over a decade, and it is only a Conservative Administration who have delivered it—and within the first year of their Parliament.

[Glyn Davies]

Previously, throughout my time in this Parliament and, indeed, in the Welsh Assembly, the Barnett deficit dominated every discussion, and was often raised by Opposition Members. Now we are in balance. Fair funding for Wales is one of the Government’s biggest achievements, but it is not being properly recognised by everyone.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for emphasising that point. The 115% rate of Barnett consequentials is extremely important—it entirely meets the criteria in the Holtham demands—but one would almost think that Labour and Plaid Cymru Members were disappointed that we had actually delivered on something that they had been calling for. They would far rather be shouting from the sidelines, calling for it in the hope that we would not deliver it. When we respond in a positive way and deliver for the people of Wales, there is complete silence.

Draft Wales Bill

Glyn Davies Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I apologise for not having been here for the opening speech today, Mr Hanson. It was impossible for me to be here. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and to follow a very thoughtful speech by the hon. Member for Ceredigion.

I congratulate the Secretary of State on the draft Bill. We need change and reform, and publishing the Bill in draft form gives us the opportunity to comment on it and to speak as we are speaking today in this forum and as we have been able to speak for some time, and to give other organisations a chance to comment on it. For the main Bill then to be brought forward taking into account what everybody has said is a very good way to proceed.

We all have the same objective: we all want a stronger, fairer, more stable devolution settlement. In 1997, I was not in favour of establishing the National Assembly for Wales—I campaigned and voted against it. But when such a body is established, the purpose of a party is to do everything possible to make it successful. The steps we have taken since then have been steps on the road to make it successful, but there is one more step to take, and I congratulate the Secretary of State on delivering that.

We have looked at broadcasting and I wanted to make the briefest of references to today’s S4C agreement, which is brilliant news, and to congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire and for Aberconwy on the sterling work they put in. Though unsung, they were like a couple of Rottweilers.

I will move on to the subject under discussion. I want to speak in general terms, not on the details of the Bill, because it is a large Bill and some of the details will change, but on two hugely important issues. I want to speak positively about the Bill. Many of the comments I have heard have been quite negative. Some people have been quite negative about the Bill today, without saying what should go in its place. I thought the presentation of the report from academics and constitutional experts that came out this week was incredibly negative and was not at all helpful. I have massive respect for a member of the group who talked about the recommendation that Assembly Members should not approve the Bill because there had been absolutely no change from the draft Bill, but that will not be the position. It provided a meaningless headline and gave a negative feel to the response to the Bill, when it is something that we can all build on and make something we want of it. I think the negative response was a mistake.

I want to touch on two major changes. The first is the move from a conferred model to a reserved powers model. That was never going to be easy. I have always favoured it since the Assembly were established. During my period in the Assembly as chairman of the legislative Committee, I always thought a reserved model was right. But it is a hugely difficult step to take. Not only that, it will not remove the legal arguments about what is devolved and what is not—those will continue—but I think it is the right step to take.

A list has been produced, which has caused a great deal of entertainment and amusement as people list what seems inappropriate, but the Secretary of State has made it clear to me that he will look at this list and we will have a different list. So it may cause amusement to talk about unlikely things that should be reserved, but we should not set aside how important it is to move to a reserved powers model. It changes the nature of devolution, it is the biggest step in the Bill and we should welcome it and congratulate the Secretary of State on bringing it forward. It should have been there in the beginning.

The second big issue is income tax powers. There are divisions over this issue, of course, even on my side. I remember speaking in favour of income tax powers in the main Chamber, when there had been no referendum. I felt I was alone at the time, but I must say that that has changed. I thought that a referendum was no more, in many people’s minds, than a blocking mechanism. I suspect that my friends on the Opposition Benches will do everything they can to avoid having the financial responsibility that comes with income tax powers. A Parliament does not grow up until it is responsible for both sides of the ledger—what it spends on the one hand and what it raises on the other. If we had a referendum on that, the arguments would be completely different—it would be simply a blocking mechanism.

The Bill is an incredibly courageous step by the Secretary of State to introduce the change that is desperately needed to make devolution grow up and become a proper Parliament, which is what it should be, and give the people that chance. The people voted for us knowing that that was the position, and we should go forward and include it in the Bill.

The background to where we are has for ages been the Barnett formula. Again, I do not want just to pass by on the Barnett formula. For ages, that dominated discussion: in a debate like this, it was all that was talked about. What we now find is that Government spending in Wales has reached a level that the Barnett formula would deliver, so it is not an issue. We should congratulate the Government on funding Wales and continuing that funding throughout this Parliament at a level that meets the requirements that critics have argued for over many years. It is a major step forward.

Another background issue is the debate about the police. It is recommended that policing should be devolved. I am not against that—I never have been—but it has to be on the basis of an understanding that policing will be improved. We could be satisfied if policing would be improved, but I do not think we have ever seen that. Policing is something that is a bit different; we should look not just at the devolution aspect, but at how effective it is. If policing can be devolved and be as effective as it is now, it is something that a lot of us could live with.

The point is that no one will agree with everything in a draft Wales Bill—dispute and disagreement will inevitably occur. I am going to have to bite the bullet of devolving greater energy powers, knowing full well that the present Welsh Government are intent on granting permissions that will destroy mid-Wales. That is what they want to do. Also, it is a hugely centralising Government. Only last week they took power to themselves to deal with energy projects over 10 MW: those are small energy powers but the Welsh Government want to take them. It is an anti-localism strategy and I very much hope that leaving power to the people becomes a feature of the debate in the Welsh Assembly election.

Devolution is not just about transferring power to Cardiff, it is about transferring power to the people, and the Welsh Government are accumulating power to themselves every chance they get. There is a lot of talk about wanting a pause. I am sure that the Secretary of State will consider that we do not want a pause just because it is too difficult to confront. A pause has to be for a genuine reason, not because there are some tough decisions to take before an election so you pause to avoid taking them. That is just not good enough.

There is much talk about a constitutional convention. That may well be sensible, but I cannot help but feel that my Opposition friends are very keen on a constitutional convention because it is the ultimate in long grass—they think, “We will not have to take any of these decisions; we can just talk about them forever and a day.”