Great British Energy Bill

Earl Russell Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to wind up in this debate. I welcome to the House the noble Baroness, Lady Beckett, with her 45 years of experience and her wisdom. I know that she will make an important contribution here. I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay. Not only did he beat Al Murray and Nigel Farage on the same night but I am so delighted that he beat sepsis as well. I wish him well in his campaigning in this House—it was emotional for me when he entered, so I wish him well.

We on these Benches welcome this important and timely Bill. But, like many of your Lordships, we have concerns with it and how it is set out. These relate to the clarity of the strategic objectives, the purpose, the definition and the scope, as well as the lack of reporting, accountability and oversight within the Bill. The noble Baronesses, Lady Bloomfield, Lady Hayman and Lady McIntosh, and the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, all raised this.

Other areas of the Bill are not defined well enough, which leaves us in a difficult position as legislators. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said that it is a “seriously flawed” Bill. I do not agree with that—it is an important Bill—but some points need clarification. I hope to work with Members across the House to help clarify some of these matters, because the Bill is important to our energy security and our future. I thank the Minister and his Bill team for meeting us all, cross-party, before the debate. This is important, and I welcome his commitment, his openness and his approach to the Bill.

The Bill is very short—in some respects, it is perhaps too short for its own good. It establishes Great British Energy, a publicly owned company owned solely by the Secretary of State. Some Members questioned whether other options might be appropriate, looking at whether that could be expanded slightly or changed. The Bill fulfils a Labour Party manifesto commitment to achieve net zero and to make energy generation clean from carbon by 2030.

Great British Energy’s founding statement says:

“Great British Energy stems from a simple idea: that the British people should have a right to own and benefit from our natural resources. That these resources belong to all of us and should be harnessed for the common good”.


What is not to agree with there? We definitely agree with that. Backed with an initial capitalisation of some £8.3 billion over this Parliament, the plan is that GB Energy will work closely with industry, local authorities, communities and other organisations to make progress on our energy independence. It should be noted that this funding does, however, drop to £125 million in 2025-26.

GB Energy will invest in and partly own new projects, crowding in and not crowding out private finance. This is key to the energy transition, but this will be a difficult tightrope for that organisation to walk—that is a very small space. It aims to take on elements of risk, invest in emerging technologies and lay the groundwork for investment, helping to build the UK supply chains and deliver much-needed jobs and growth.

We have the third-best wind resources in the world, and they are still largely underdeveloped. We also have some of the highest domestic energy bills in Europe. But our continued dependence on the importation of gas must end. If we continue to lack energy independence, we will continue to be vulnerable to the vast fluctuations in the international markets. It is always our domestic bill payers who suffer. Today, we are at the start of a cold spell in winter. Continued international tensions mean that the gas and energy markets are rising as we speak.

The energy transition will bring short-term costs, but it will bring long-term benefits and security, and it will reduce bills permanently. However, energy bill payers must be supported and must benefit from that transition process. Equally, huge costs come from simply doing nothing. It is estimated that, in 2022-23, the energy bill support scheme cost the Government £6 billion, with absolutely no long-term benefits. So when the Conservatives go on about costs, they should remember that the biggest cost of all is that of doing nothing. The promise is that GB Energy will save some £300 a year. I hope that it does and that that happens soon.

I turn to our areas of concern with the Bill. The first is the general lack of funding available. There is a big, long shopping list of stuff that needs to be done, and my concern is that, because Labour cut its green budget virtually in half before the general election, there is not enough money to do everything on that list. Therefore, priorities will have to be set, which means that the money needs to be spent very wisely.

Can I ask the Minister to provide the House with further clarity on what, if any, borrowing powers GB Energy will have and how they will be used and monitored? Further, will the national wealth fund be supporting GB Energy and, if so, how? Many Members have asked that. It is also unclear whether GB Energy will be able to use debt financing powers and how that would sit on Treasury balance sheets. When does he believe GB Energy will be able to make its own investments?

A great concern for us is the lack of any written strategic priorities for GB Energy. A plan needs to be made and there needs to be scope in the Bill for parliamentary oversight of it. I welcome the comment by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that this needs to be in the Bill. It is clear from discussions with the Minister that the plan is not yet written and is unlikely to be ready before we finish scrutinising the Bill. That puts us, as a House, in a difficult position. The legislative cart has been put before the strategic priorities horse.

We need to find a way forward through that. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said it was a skeleton without any flesh. There are ways in which we can find solutions—we could delay Report; we could ask for a draft publication to be made available; we could even ask for heads of terms to be agreed with the Minister, or verbal assurances to be given by the Minister from the Dispatch Box. We should have an opportunity for parliamentary oversight. That is really important. Moreover, there should be opportunities for a further strategic review of those priorities if they change.

There is no overall reporting or accountability for GB Energy in the Bill. Other than what it must provide—like every other UK company—to Companies House, there is literally no reporting. That is not good enough, and it needs to change. Many Members have raised that in the House. We added a reporting duty to the Crown Estate Bill. My suggestion is that a similar thing is done here for GB Energy—it could have agreed headings and things that need to be reported on. Reporting needs to happen, and there needs to be parliamentary scrutiny.

What is the area for GB Energy? The Bill has such an inclusive and broad range that it is impossible to know what is included and what is not. It could virtually spend 98% of its money on nuclear energy or it could spend 98% on carbon capture and storage, despite the fact that that has already been given £22 billion. There are no definitions at all and, looking around the House, I think that worries noble Lords considerably. They do not know where the money will be spent and what the priorities are. The House as a whole is asking for clarification on those issues.

We understand that the Government do not want to be restricted, that a lot of this money will be seed money and enabling money, and that the Government want freedom to do that work. However, that needs to be balanced against the need for some clarity of what we are signing up to and approving.

There is also a need for a general environmental duty. We put one in the Crown Estate Bill. That should be copied over. I welcome the support of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Young, for a nature recovery duty as well. We will support that; it is an important duty. I ask the Minister to consider that.

Clause 6 was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Lilley and Lord Bourne. It gives the Secretary of State sleeping powers. I note that he has to consult with GB Energy beforehand and to report to the House afterwards. Are those powers really necessary? Are they appropriate? Should the Minister maybe come to the House before using those powers and seek some kind of approval? I do not know—they seem a little over the top for what is necessary. They are copied from the nuclear industry. We are talking about windmills and stuff here. Do we need that power?

Other elements are missing from the Bill altogether. Community energy is something that we on these Benches will be concentrating on a lot. Community energy must appear in the Bill and in the strategic objectives for GB Energy. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Young, for supporting this. The founding statement makes welcome claims, and the Minister gives his assurances. However, the reality is that there is nothing in the Bill or in the strategic priorities.

We all want community-led energy to succeed and to experience accelerated growth from its very small base of 0.5% of our energy, but this will happen only if those who invest to make that growth happen have the confidence that this Government truly support this as a way forward. Vague promises are not investment options. Real-worth investment in this sector requires firm commitments from the Government, so I will seek to work with the Minister to make sure that we write this into the Bill and the strategic objectives, because, without that, it will not happen. It is an important part of the energy transition, an important part of taking communities with us and an important part of strengthening and decentralising our grid. In fact, I would like to see a plug and play system designed for community energy, linking together planning, investment and everything else that needs to happen across the piece, so that this stuff can really get off the ground. When will this investment in community energy come?

There is no point in creating renewable energy if we cannot plug it in when it is finished. Similarly, there are real issues around grid capacity and grid connections—lots of noble Lords raised that. My understanding from the Minister is that the grid is not in or crucial to the Bill, so where will the funding for grid connections come from? How that will be done is really important. Similarly, home heating accounts for 18% of CO₂ emissions in this country. I call on the Minister to look at using GB Energy as a vehicle for helping to get heat pumps into homes. We need 600,000 heat pumps to be brought into our homes annually by 2028. There is no mechanism and no promise of doing that at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, suggested allowing people to borrow against their mortgages to pay for the cost of heat pumps. I suggest that GB Energy could be a vehicle to help make that happen, making it affordable to homeowners so we can get this stuff done.

In the transition, jobs and skills are really important as well. The noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, and others mentioned this. There was not much in the Budget. The Budget itself, despite all the investments, is not creating real long-term growth, so I really encourage the Minister and the Government to invest more in jobs and skills so that the green transition benefits people and brings benefits to them.

Spatial planning has also been mentioned. A number of new organisations are being created here; the landscape is changing. We have NESO, Ofgem, the Crown Estate, GBN and GBE. How will they all work together? These are questions that people asked.

Finally, to wrap up, I encourage the Government to look at future-proofing GBE to make sure that it outlasts this Government and the next.

Great British Energy Bill

Earl Russell Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly. I thank noble Lords for bringing forward these amendments. These are really important issues that are worth examining in Committee. However, on these Benches we do not feel that any of these amendments really provide proper solutions to some of the problems that are contained within this Bill.

We feel that GB Energy is separate and distinct from the National Wealth Fund; as GB Energy grows and develops over time, that will become clearer. We welcome the setting up of GB Energy, and we think it is absolutely essential that Britain has a chance to own and manage part of its energy resources and that we are investing in having our energy security and independence.

I read recently on the old Government’s website a press brief from No. 10 during the Sunak Government, which proudly proclaimed that they had spent £40 billion subsidising home owners and businesses through the energy price crisis that we had in the last few years. Obviously, that cannot continue, and our bill payers are suffering, which is not good for us.

We do not really feel that having minority equity stakes is the answer to these problems either. There are problems in this Bill: the Government have chosen to have a very short Bill; the strategic priorities are not written up and are not ready; Clauses 5 and 6 give more control than the Government should have without adequate parliamentary scrutiny—I recognise that this has been picked up by reports in this House. Those are all matters we can discuss and work constructively with the Government to find solutions to them. Ultimately, this is a useful conversation, but we do not see the answers within these amendments; we see the answers within other amendments that are yet to come.

[The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)]

My Lords, we have started our proceedings in Committee with a very interesting discussion about the relationship between Great British Energy and the National Wealth Fund. I certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Offord, on the importance of our debates on energy and net zero more generally and with the noble Lord, Lord Howell, about the complexities of our energy system and the challenges that we have undoubtedly set ourselves. The recent report by NESO, the National Energy System Operator, sets out those challenges, but gives us some confidence that we can achieve them.

Amendment 1, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Offord, seeks to require that Great British Energy must be a subsidiary of the National Wealth Fund. Clearly, he indicated he wanted to explore in more detail the relationship between the two organisations. I should say at once to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that we are certainly not creating organisations for the sake of it. As someone who has spent most of my life dealing with NHS structures and restructuring, I have learnt over the painful years that simply creating new organisations and merging other ones very rarely leads to a successful outcome. We believe that Great British Energy is a key component of our energy and net-zero strategy; that is why it was a manifesto commitment and why we are determined to plough on with this proposal.

On the relationship and the difference between the National Wealth Fund and Great British Energy, the Government have stated very clearly that we see the National Wealth Fund as the state-owned investment bank and wealth fund. It will invest across clean energy sectors, including green hydrogen, green steel, gigafactories and ports, as well as other sectors central to delivering our industrial strategy. On the other hand, Great British Energy will be the UK’s state-owned energy company. It will own, manage and operate key energy projects across the country, including making investments across the clean energy sector and supporting the development of clean energy technologies. It will also support local power and community energy projects as well as supply chains. This is a distinct role, which is why GBE should be a stand-alone company focused on its important mission.

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It will help to achieve net zero. GB Energy is the flagship policy of this Government’s plans to reach net zero by 2050, and I support that. Hydrogen has a wide range of uses, from local transport to aviation to industrial decarbonisation, and is essential for decarbonising hard-to-reach sectors of business. It would show good global leadership. That is really thanks to the healthy pipeline of projects, a supportive policy environment and existing energy expertise. The UK is well positioned to become a global hydrogen leader and build robust supply chains here. But, above all, it supplies energy security. CCUS-enabled hydrogen has a critical role to play in protecting the UK’s energy security, because hydrogen can store energy to balance offshore wind and solar. When the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining, hydrogen is there to give us the future energy security that we need as a nation. I believe that what this industry has done and is doing is vital to enhance this Bill and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to five amendments in this group, so I apologise that I will be a few minutes—but at least they are not in five different groups. I start with two amendments on heat pump technology. They both seek to explore how Great British Energy could have a greater and more useful and productive role in helping with the uptake of heat pumps.

Amendment 16 would set an objective for GB Energy to ensure the uptake and use of heat pumps. Amendment 17 would set an objective for GB Energy to ensure the uptake and use of heat pumps, including by leading efforts to develop a mortgage opt-in financing scheme, where payments for heat pumps could be included in mortgages on an opt-in basis. Helping people to decarbonise home heating has been a long-running and difficult issue. Very little progress has been made in these areas, which are responsible for a quarter of our total CO₂ emissions. We all need to recognise and work together to ensure that policies and plans are put forward to bring people with us on the journey to net zero, and that means ensuring that vulnerable and low-income households are supported through the transition.

Heat pumps are up to four times more energy-efficient than gas boilers and they are a crucial element of the Government’s plans to decarbonise home heating. I welcome a lot of the measures that have recently been announced by the Government as part of the warm homes plan, including boosting the budget for the boiler upgrade scheme, supporting more households to switch to a heat pump and removing unnecessary planning restrictions which were a blockage to people taking up and installing heat pumps. While I recognise that these measures are useful and help to remove some barriers, my worry remains that they are still not enough to get us back on track to meet our heat-pump targets.

To meet the UK’s climate change target, the Government need to install 600,000 low-carbon heat pumps annually by 2028. The 2024 progress report to Parliament from the Climate Change Committee identified heat-pump installations and the training of heat-pump installers as being “significantly off track”. In 2023, less than half the number of heat pumps were installed to keep us on track for these goals. While figures have improved a little this year, it has not been dramatic enough to make progress. The marketplace faces continued resistance from many of the gas boiler companies; there is still a prevalence of disinformation and cost barriers and a lack of installers necessary to get these heat pumps installed. So I wish to explore with the Minister and with the House whether it is worthwhile giving GB Energy a role in this space, to help progress with the installation of heat pumps and to help us meet these challenging targets. To be frank, I do not see much of another plan from the Government that is going to get us anywhere near where we need to be in time. Furthermore, has any consideration been given to bringing the warm homes plan and the associated budget within the control of GB Energy?

Turning to Amendment 17, I wish to acknowledge from the outset that this is not my idea; this is an idea I read about and it originates from the noble Lord, Lord Deben. It made sense to me. This would be a way of helping people who own a house and have a mortgage to overcome the cost barrier to the installation of heat pumps. I think it is sensible and possibly worth pursuing further. So, I wanted to ask the Minister and to explore with the House whether GB Energy could act as a facilitator and a broker to help make this happen. There are significant government grants available—£7,500 for installing a heat pump—but that still leaves over half the cost with the householder. That is still a significant amount of money and it is a barrier to people taking this up. However, if the total cost of the heat pumps that was left over could be put on a mortgage, that could spread over a longer term and the process would become inherently much more affordable. So I will be interested in the Minister’s comments on whether that is something that GB Energy might have a role in helping to facilitate.

I will now move on to Amendment 23. To be clear, this is a probing amendment. Sorry, that was not written in the amendment. The amendment prevents GB Energy facilitating, encouraging and participating in carbon capture and storage, as the Government have already allocated a budget for CCS to be spent elsewhere. I tabled this amendment so that the whole House could gain a better understanding of the proposed role for GB Energy in the CCS sector and in this space. I want to hear from the Minister what the objectives are. What value will GB Energy add here, why are they investing in it and what are the proposed outcomes that will flow from that investment?

I understand from the Minister that the Government do not want to put a list in the Bill and that they are keen to maintain flexibility for GB Energy. GB Energy is about investing in emerging technologies, helping them to get off the ground and taking on some of the risk that needs to be taken to help create new markets. It is about crowding in and not crowding out private capital. Those are clear objectives. It is a tightrope that needs to be walked, but there is a clear purpose there. I am not against GB Energy having a role in CCS, but I wish to understand a little better what that role is, what is planned and what percentage of GBE’s proposed budget might be spent in this area.

Against that background, I am concerned about the availability of budget and government resources for GB Energy. I know that government discussions around budget resources are ongoing, that £100 million has so far been pledged over the first two years, and that a total of £8 billion over the five years of this Parliament is proposed, but that is not a huge budget resource and there is a growing list of priorities and possible areas for GBE to invest in. Eventually, we could end up in a position where the cake is cut so small that each slice begins to have a very diminishing value.

Of course we need to set up the organisation, but only £100 million-worth of investment will be available to GBE for the year 2025-26, other than what might come from the National Wealth Fund. Time is running out for GB Energy to make these investments, because the ambition here is obviously to decarbonise our energy by 2030. If you are 25 or 26 making these investments, once you have made them they need to create real things that make a real difference. We are running out of time.

I speak also to Amendment 24, which is similar to Amendment 23 but looks at GB Energy’s role in nuclear and at the relationship between GB Energy and GBN. I do not have time to go through it all, but basically I want to explore all the points I made on CCS in relation to GBN. I note the Minister said in the letter he wrote to us that the detail is being worked through and that considerations are being given to how GBN’s functions could be best aligned with GBE. Briefly, can he confirm that there are no plans for GBN to become part of GBE, and that the plan is that they will always be separate organisations but will have close working relationships with each other? Again, I assume that that is about initial investment and risk-taking in new nuclear technology.

My worry these amendments address is that, without proper strategic priorities, the ever-growing areas that GB Energy could invest in will leave it with inadequate resources to do the core job that I want to see, which is renewable energy. The Government have made £200 billion available for carbon capture and storage, so I do not quite see why GBE also needs to be involved in it.

Amendment 25, to which I have added my name, is in the name of my noble friend Lord Bruce. Unfortunately, he cannot be here, so I will speak to his amendment, which would require GBE to have consideration

“to measures that ensure oil and gas supply chains contribute to … the development of renewable technology during transition to net zero … the decarbonisation of remaining oil and gas production, and … the reduction of oil and gas production consistent with net zero”.

I pay tribute to my noble friend and his years of experience in Aberdeen and the North Sea oil and gas sectors, and his very real concern to ensure the transition is indeed just. These processes are extremely difficult even in the best of times and with the best will, so it is important to ensure oil and gas workers are protected and treated fairly, that adequate support is given to them, and that they are able to transition into the green energy and technologies of the future. We need these people and their skills, and we need these industries to ensure we can deliver the green technology that we need. However, these processes can be bumpy. It is in all our interests to ensure that their rights and futures are protected, and that these British industries continue to be supported and flourish, and are able to transition. All projections to and through net zero envisage oil and gas as part of the plan, so this will continue to be part of our energy mix even in net zero.

The oil and gas sector currently accounts for £25 billion of UK GDP and supports around 200,000 jobs. The plans are that even more people will be employed in the green sectors. The simple purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the decline of the oil and gas supply chain does not proceed faster than the expansion of the renewable sector. If we get the balance right, the UK can deliver net zero at home and help develop it abroad; if we get it wrong, we could depress one successful if declining sector before the new sector arrives to take it forward.

Just before I finish, I give my support to Amendment 18, which will no doubt be spoken to very well by my noble friend Lady Grender. It calls for GB Energy to support an emergency home insulation programme. This is one of the key amendments to the Bill from my party. The best energy of all is the energy we never need to burn, use and consume. More must be done on energy efficiency to support our home owners and bill payers to make sure that they can afford to keep their homes warm and safe. Finally, I lend my support to Amendment 91 on tidal barrages. With that, I think I have run out of time.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Yes, I want to be absolutely clear: nuclear clearly falls within the definition of clean power, so it would be within the competence of Great British Energy to invest and do the other things in the Bill in relation to nuclear. However, we have Great British Nuclear, which I believe will continue. We are still finalising discussions, but GBN is focusing at the moment on small modular reactors. The department is involved in major funding of the nuclear developments, but GBE could also invest in nuclear energy. I hope that is clear.

I turn to oil and gas. Amendment 25 from the noble Earl, Lord Russell—and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, who was not able to be present—would require Great British Energy to consider oil and gas supply chains and a reduction in and decarbonisation of oil and gas production. I say to the noble Earl that I understand the need for a just transition and acknowledge the skills of people working in oil and gas in the North Sea.

The Bill is focused on making the minimum necessary provisions to enable the establishment of this operationally independent company. Clause 3 provides the framework for Great British Energy’s functions and limits the areas where it can act, but it does not say how Great British Energy should deliver its functions or objectives. One of the worries about the noble Earl’s amendment is that it would widen the intention of this clause, perhaps unnecessarily. I say to him that, as we invest in the UK’s energy potential, we want to rebuild supply chains at home, of course. In relation to oil and gas, we want to help the transition and use the skilled workers in the most effective way possible. Oil and gas production in the North Sea will be with us for decades to come, so we want to manage the North Sea in a way that ensures continued support for that sector but enables some of the workers there to transition to other sectors, particularly in energy where they have such expertise.

Amendments 30 and 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, wish the Government to confirm or state that biomass is not included in the definition of clean energy in the Bill. Although I understand that many noble Lords share her viewpoint, as was clear from the Oral Question we had a few weeks ago, the Government believe that biomass plays a role in balancing the energy grid when intermittent renewables are not available. It is well evidenced that sustainably sourced biomass can provide a low-carbon and renewable energy source. That view is supported by both the Inter- governmental Panel on Climate Change and the Climate Change Committee.

Biomass sourced in line with strict sustainability criteria can be used as a low-carbon source of energy. Woody biomass that is sustainably sourced from well-managed forests is a renewable, low-carbon source of energy, as carbon dioxide emissions released during combustion are absorbed continuously by new forest growth.

The noble Baroness mentioned the Ofgem investigation, which she will know was about incorrect data being provided. It would be fair to say that Ofgem did not find the process at fault; it was the data provided. She asked me what visits officials in my department had made to the US. Officials have been in contact with US regulators but I would be happy to provide her with more details on what we have been doing.

The noble Baroness also mentioned BECCS, as it is known, or bioenergy with carbon capture and storage. Again, the Committee on Climate Change and the International Energy Agency recognise that BECCS can play a significant role in supporting net-zero targets through the delivery of negative carbon emissions with the co-benefit of producing low-carbon energy.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, spoke eloquently and passionately to Amendment 91 on tidal barrages. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, too, who suggested that tidal barrage and, in particular, lagoons play to the UK’s strength. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, also spoke. The National Energy System Operator—NESO—is leading a network innovation allowance project aimed at establishing a holistic knowledge base on the potential development and impacts of tidal barrage in Great Britain within the context of grid operability. That is a very important development that I hope picks up the point that noble Lords have raised—the situation may have changed over the past 10 or 20 years.

I look forward to discussing the Mersey barrage with the noble Lord, Lord Alton. When I did this job at the Department of Energy and Climate Change from 2008 to 2010, I chaired a forum that we established on the Severn estuary potential, so I would certainly be interested in taking discussions forward on the Mersey barrage.

I hope that I have reassured most noble Lords that the energy technologies they wish to see supported can be covered in the Bill, but Great British Energy must be allowed to make its own decisions within the context of the objectives and strategic priorities the Secretary of State will set.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his detailed response to all the amendments in this group. I want to follow up with a quick question. I and the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, asked the Minister whether any consideration will be given to rolling the warm homes plan into GB Energy. The answer might be that no consideration will be given, or that the Minister does not have an answer—though he could possibly have one in a minute. I am happy to take a written response or come back to it at a later stage.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not aware of any intention. I will certainly write to him if I have got that wrong but I am not aware of any intention to do it. The whole issue of home insulation and heating is crucial to getting to net zero and we are giving it a huge amount of attention.

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[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, given the relevance of this amendment, I remind the Committee of my interests as a generator of small-scale hydro.

Before I get on to the specifics of the amendment, I will try to clear up a confusion that crept into the debate on the previous group, at the risk of reopening the mini debate we had at the end of the second group. There is still confusion between “objective” and “object”, and the Minister is still guilty of falling into that trap. The objectives are what the company has to try to achieve. The “objects” in Clause 3 are what the company is restricted to being able to do. If it is not in the objects, the company cannot do it—it is not allowed to. If it is in the objects, the company is allowed to do it but does not have to. Therefore, putting something into Clause 3 does not mean, as the Minister has suggested, that we specify what GBE should be doing or making, or in any way restrict its ability to make its own decisions. That is a really important difference. I suspect that a number of noble Lords who tabled amendments to Clause 3 think that they are adding an objective. They are not.

That said, my Amendment 10 is designed to allow GBE to do something, not to tell it to do it. Since the removal of the feed-in tariff system, of which I am a recipient, there has been only a very limited incentive for people to install greater domestic renewable generation capacity than the amount that covers their own usage. Own usage brings quite a substantial return because it replaces the cost of buying electricity from a main supplier plus the VAT, but the only way to be paid anything for any excess you send into the grid is the smart export guarantee, and the rules around that are simply that the amount has to be positive. That can be, and in many cases is, as low as a penny per kilowatt hour. That is not much of an incentive to add an extra couple of panels on to your roof, or whatever it might be beyond your own needs.

There are now some higher smart export guarantee rates but they can be reduced at will by the electricity companies. There is no guarantee of them, so when you consider installing solar panels or any other renewable generation there is no incentive to install more than you want to use yourself. The cheapest and easiest way of increasing renewable generation—because you already have the scaffolding up and the builders—is to add two or three more panels, but you will do that only if there is a return from doing so.

So would it not be a great thing if you were able to sell your excess to your neighbours, at a discount from the full retail price but at more than the smart export guarantee? That way, both the generator and the consumer would win. At the moment, the only way to achieve that is to hardwire your neighbours into your system, and that is an extremely expensive and not very practical thing to have to do.

One potential solution to that problem is peer-to-peer trading, which would allow neighbours to buy your excess electricity over a trading platform. With trading via peer-to-peer networks, neighbourhoods, districts or entire towns can join forces and trade their self-produced electricity. This is not just a theoretical concept; there are projects all over the world investigating the possibilities of this approach in field trials. There are working examples as far afield as Spain, Switzerland, Bangladesh, the Netherlands and many more. There are also studies in the UK, such as the one by Repowering London, UK Power Networks and EDF in Brixton. The technology is available now.

The huge advantage of peer-to-peer trading is that it can incentivise greater installation of solar and other technologies at no cost to the Government or to the consumer. GBE can take a role in this process as a trading hub, or it could support local trading hubs. The trading operations themselves could be financed by taking a fee for using the trading platform. It is also a great way to create community energy networks. There are wider advantages than the purely financial. Peer-to-peer networks can improve resilience, improve energy access and reduce losses from long-distance transmission.

That links quite nicely, I think, to the Amendments 11 and 15, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, which would add community energy to the objects, and to Amendment 20, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, which looks at local energy planning. I would support both of those amendments, alongside Amendment 10, as I believe they are highly complementary.

All that Amendment 10 does is add the trading of electricity to the allowed objects of GBE. This would allow it to create, manage or support peer-to-peer trading arrangements, for all the reasons that I have given. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will look favourably on it. It would be odd and rather sad if this interesting and relatively new technological way of incentivising small-scale generation was not allowed under GBE’s objectives.

I shall not comment on the other amendments in this group as the tablers have not yet spoken to them, but a number certainly appear to be very sensible and constructive suggestions. I look forward to hearing more detail. I beg to move.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to two amendments in this group: Amendments 11 and 15. Before I do so, I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for his amendments. They fit well with the amendments on community energy. I was thinking about this subject myself. It is an essential system that needs to be put into place as part of that broader community energy scheme so that people can trade their energy; that would be better for all of us.

Amendments 11 and 15 both seek to include community energy in the objects of the Great British Energy company. It would be

“restricted to facilitating, encouraging, and participating”.

One of our key aims in debating this Bill is to work to ensure that community energy is both in the objectives for GB Energy and on the face of the Bill. The development of community energy has ground to a halt since the end of the feed-in tariff here in the UK. In Europe, by contrast, it is a very different story, where these systems are far wider, better understood and embedded in local societies. They are championed by their Governments and they are bringing great local benefits.

Community energy accounts for only around 0.5% of the UK’s electricity, but it has been estimated by the Environmental Audit Committee and others that it has scope for exceptional growth and could generate up to 8 gigawatts in combination with local power networks. Power for People, which has been supporting these amendments, estimates that community energy could power 2.2 million homes, save 2.5 million tonnes of CO₂ and help to create some 30,000 jobs. Community energy programmes are good ways of providing local jobs and are a useful means of addressing local fuel poverty. This is a continuation of the work that was started by Pippa Heylings in the other place; I have promised her that I will continue that work here as the Bill progresses.

Our view is quite simply that there is no Great British Energy without Great British community energy. Our vision for this Bill is that there should be an “out of the box” system, whereby every hamlet, local parish, town council and small village can pick up the phone and find an end-to-end system for creating a small-scale community energy programme.

GB Energy is perfectly placed to provide this tailored service. It is a one-stop shop turning ideas into reality, helping with systems choices, design, planning, building, local grid connections, finance arrangements, shared part ownership, et cetera. GB Energy should crowd in finance and not crowd out private investment, and this is one area where development is well suited to that. The big players and big companies are not investing in community energy; this stuff will not get off the ground unless GB Energy does it. There is no other market here; there is no competition.

Local community energy should be included in the energy transition, and communities should benefit from the local energy that they host or generate. We have tabled a forthcoming amendment on community benefit, which will be published shortly and debated in January when we come back for the second day of Committee. It seeks proposals for ensuring that local communities benefit from the renewable energy projects undertaken by Great British Energy.

We can make the national grid more resilient; it saves wasting energy in unnecessary transmission. We are currently transmitting energy from far up north to down south, losing a third of it on the way. As has been said, a trading system should be established so that local communities can sell excess energy. These systems make the grid more resilient, more robust and more stable. They help our communities to prosper and to benefit from that which they host.

The energy transition affects us all, in much the same ways that the Industrial Revolution did. We all need to make changes to the way we heat our homes, the way we travel and many other aspects of our daily lives. Such societal-level changes require broad and continuing levels of community engagement, participation and support if they are to be successfully enacted and carried through to completion, especially when the changes needed must take place at the speed and scale that is required here.

My personal view is that too much of what has been done to date is overly centrally controlled; it is much more “done to” than “done with”. We need community buy-in. We need to provide ways and means for our local communities to both participate in and benefit locally from the changes that we require them to make. Without this sustained local support, the whole net-zero project is in danger of being derailed by a lack of common purpose and want of determination to be part of the change that is required. Community public support is the key factor for the success of the whole project.

In some ways, this has been a strange task. There is broad cross-party support for the need for community energy. This was shown quite clearly in the other place, with many MPs supporting a Motion on this issue. There have been reassuring words of support in the other place, particularly from the right honourable Ed Miliband, the Energy Secretary, who said:

“I know that many Members of the House are passionate about the issue of local power, so let me reassure them that the Government are committed to delivering the biggest expansion of support for community-owned energy in history”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/10/24; col. 776.]


Equally, here in your Lordships’ House, the Minister responded positively at Second Reading to the issue of local community energy. He has already spoken about his involvement in Birmingham and I know that he is passionate about the work that he did. He knows the difference that this makes.

The founding statement for GB Energy itself also has strong words of support for the principle and objectives of community energy, saying that

“we will be investing in community-owned energy generation, reducing the pressures on the transmission grid while giving local people a stake in their transition to net zero”.

Great British Energy Bill

Earl Russell Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

I hope that I have not exhausted the Committee, but these are crucial questions, and they involve much of the £8 billion that we are setting aside for these programmes. Rebuilding our national resilience and reducing our dependency on authoritarian states who threaten our freedoms should be in the DNA of every policy the Government promulgate. I beg to move.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, my Amendment 100 seeks to insert a new clause after Clause 7 that would require Great British Energy to verify its supply chain in respect of unethical practices and to attempt to engage in ethical supply chain practices only. I will also speak in favour of the principles contained in Amendments 43 and 109 in this group, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and supported by others.

To be clear, I believe in people and planet, and we should not have to choose one or the other. The two are intertwined and co-dependent. Our goal of reaching net zero must not come at the expense of supporting repressive regimes which do not support the human rights of their own citizens, or on the back of slave labour.

The truth is that it is certain that a proportion of the supplies and materials used in this country as part of our efforts to decarbonise have unknown ethical origins or, if we look more closely, are probably produced in regimes with modern slavery practices.

Polysilicon manufacturers in China account for some 45% of the world’s supply, and some 80% of the world’s solar panel manufacturing. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, alluded to, Sheffield Hallam University has linked forced labour in China’s labour transfer programme directly to the global supply chain of solar panels. Some 11 companies were identified as engaging in forced labour transfer, including all four of China’s largest polysilicon producers. Some 2.7 million Uighurs are subject to state detention and coerced work programmes.

The combination of unethical practices, cheap labour and deliberate foreign policies means that China controls much of the world’s rare earth materials and manufacturing that is necessary to produce solar panels. China built more renewable technology than the rest of the world combined last year. But China is still opening and highly dependent on coal mines. It is time for China itself to choose which side of the green revolution it is on.

It is not in our national interest to continue with such foreign power dependence in order to secure our net-zero goals. What actions are the Government considering or planning to undertake, along with our allies and partners, to verify supply chains and build our own manufacturing capacity, particularly for solar panels, so that we are not dependent on foreign countries for the materials we need to decarbonise, and so that we can be certain that the products we use are not the result of human suffering? I hope the Prime Minister raised these important issues in his recent meeting with the Chinese President.

My amendment would place a duty on GB Energy to verify and engage in ethical supply chain practices. This is not the end of the journey, but it is a start. Of course, these problems extend way beyond GB Energy and these measures should be implemented nationally.

Amendment 43 says that no financial assistance must be provided

“if there exists credible evidence of modern slavery in the energy supply chain”.

Amendment 109 calls for a warning to be placed on any products sourced from China that are used by GB Energy. Although I support the spirit and intention of both these amendments, my worry is that the Government will not be able to support them and that they will fail.

My fear is that if Amendment 43 passed it would put GB Energy at an unfair disadvantage in relation to other competitors in the industry operating in the UK. For this reason, the Government will most likely reject it. On Amendment 109, I expect that the implication of labelling these products might simply be to prevent their purchase by GB Energy, while other competitors in place in the UK marketplace without this labelling requirement would be able to continue their supply. Again, my worry is that this would do more to put GB Energy at a disadvantage versus its competitors operating in this country. The Government will probably reject the amendment on those grounds.

My hope is that my amendment or a newly tabled one on Report might help us to find a way forward together on this important issue, which we all need to make progress on. To be clear, this issue goes well beyond GB Energy, and the real long-term solutions to it sit with the verification of supply chains, strong and determined diplomacy, the creation of and investment in solar panel manufacturing on our own or along with our allies, or the research and development of new forms of manufacturing processes for these technologies. These are essential issues, but I suspect we will need to engage constructively together to find a way forward prior to Report, and that the solution, ultimately, goes beyond the scope of the Bill and GB Energy.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for their amendments. We all agree that modern slavery is one of the great scourges of our time. It is estimated that tens of millions of people are trapped in forced labour worldwide, many of them in sectors tied to energy production and manufacturing. Indeed, as the noble Lord and the noble Earl pointed out very eloquently, renewable energy technologies such as solar panels rely on materials such as polysilicon, much of which is sourced from regions where reports of forced labour and human rights abuses are widespread.

These amendments seek to ensure that GBE operates with integrity and accountability in its supply chain practices. Each amendment addresses a crucial aspect of ethical responsibility, and together they would bind the Government to ensure clean energy does not come at the expense of human rights, ethical labour practices or transparency. I encourage the Government to look at this matter carefully. Can the Minister explain what measures will be put in place to ensure that there is oversight of Great British Energy’s supply chains? If Great British Energy is to represent the values of this nation, there is a strong case for tougher measures to prevent public funds being spent in a way that supports or sustains supply chains that exploit human beings.

On Amendment 109, while I recognise the sensitivity and complexity of this issue, it is crucial that we approach it with transparency and courage. Consumers and stakeholders have a right to know the origins of the products they use and the conditions under which they are made. I hope the Minister will listen carefully to the arguments made on this matter; we on these Benches will be very interested to hear his reply.

As a publicly backed entity, Great British Energy has an opportunity to set an example and be a model to other countries. I am sure the Government agree there are opportunities here and we look forward to hearing their response.

Great British Energy Bill

Earl Russell Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise. In my excitement to contribute in Committee, I forgot to apologise for not being able to come to previous sessions. I also forgot to declare that I am a director of Aldustria Ltd, a battery storage company, and that I chair the Cornwall & Isles of Scilly Local Nature Partnership, which is involved in biodiversity issues.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 50 and signal my support, and that of our Benches, for Amendments 46, 46A, 49 and 51A.

My Amendment 50 seeks to add a statement to the strategic priorities, including a specific priority for the advancement and production of clean energy from schemes owned, or part-owned, by community organisations. This amendment seeks simply to have community energy added to the strategic priorities for Great British Energy. I apologise for talking about community energy again, as my Amendments 11 and 15 were about the objects of the Great British Energy company; these amendments work alongside those, and, combined, we want to see community energy in the Bill, both in the objects of the company and in the strategic priorities.

Labour has looked to Europe for its inspiration—for want of a better word—for Great British Energy. In Europe, community energy is being embedded in local power networks at an ever-increasing level. Europe is doing that because it knows that it is good for energy security, continuity of supply and local communities and that it brings local benefits. Here at home, we have seen the end of the feed-in tariff, but since that time there has been very little development, with still only 0.5% of our electricity being generated from community-based energy schemes. Reports have indicated that there is a possibility for that to grow exponentially up to some possible 8 gigawatts of local community energy by working with local energy plans, provided that the investment and policy are put in place to make that happen.

I thank Power for People, which has helped me with these amendments and provided your Lordships with briefings. It believes that up to 2.2 million homes could be powered by community energy, that it could save some 2.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide and that it could help to create some 30,000 jobs in the UK.

Community energy is good not just for us but for our communities. Without going through all the arguments I made the other day, our position is that there is no Great British Energy without a Great British community energy. Our vision is for an end-to-end community energy scheme, so that our local communities can contact one person and get an end-to-end system to help them to get the investment, planning and ideas to turn their wishes to help contribute and be part of this transition into reality.

The point is that the big players will not do this; they are not operating in this field. This simply will not happen if GB Energy does not take it on and make it part of its core strategic priorities—it just will not happen. There is no other realistic option for this. This is good for us and for our communities, and we want to see communities benefitting from the energy infra- structure that they host or run. I apologise, but there will be a third bite of the cherry, as my Amendment 118A, in group 14, argues specifically for this point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 54 in this group and signal our support for Amendments 51, 53, 57 and 58. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for his excellent introduction to this group of amendments and for setting out everything so ably.

Jumping to the end, it appears to me that the settled will of the Committee is that something should be done on this issue; I suggest one way to achieve that would be for the Government to bring forward their own amendment before Report. It might be that further collective discussions happen between now and Report. Everyone has a slightly different way of doing this, and I do not think that anyone has the answer—it is something that needs more work. However, the settled opinion of the Committee seems to be that there needs to be some check on this part of the Bill.

I said previously that the Bill is a little too short for its own good. I understand the Minister’s concerns about having lists and the problems with them, and why he does not want them. We are in favour of the Bill and we do not want to stand in its way. This is a manifesto commitment that the Government are delivering. However, as it stands, it has numerous issues. No timescales are provided for when it must be done. Although there is a condition to lay this before Parliament, as has been said, there is no parliamentary process to scrutinise, question, amend, approve or reject the strategic priorities. There is a condition to consult the devolved Governments, but, if they all unanimously said that they had the same problem with the strategic objectives, there is no way for Parliament to know that that happened, and there is also no way for them to reject or change the strategic priorities. It feels a bit unusual to be in this potion, because we are being asked to scrutinise and approve the Bill but we do not have the strategic priorities in front of us.

I welcome the constructive engagement that the Minister and his Bill team have had with us to date. He has been clear with us that these strategic priorities are being written and prepared. I recognise the need for urgency and that they are a new Government, but, ultimately, we are being asked to approve something when we do not know what it is. Indeed, the organisation itself has not written the strategic priorities, so the organisation does not know exactly what they are yet. That is a difficult position to be in.

However, there are ways forward through all of this. This quandary needs to be resolved through collective compromise and a meeting of minds. At a minimum, there need to be some guard-rails. Some general principles need to be laid out, including what will be in the priorities and a general sense of the outputs that GB Energy will be responsible for. That can be done—we can find a way to do that collectively. It should be done on Report.

Between now and Report, I would welcome the chance to have a conversation in which we can talk about this collectively. I do not want to delay Report—that is not the answer to this—but the Minister could put forward a draft publication for us. There could be draft heads of terms on what the current thinking is for GB Energy and the Ministers about what will and will not be included, as well as what has already been excluded. The Minister could give verbal assurances to this House from the Dispatch Box on some of these matters.

Finally, this amendment is my hard backstop, because it requires a resolution in both Houses. I will keep it in reserve. To be clear, in the final group of amendments, I have Amendment 122, which requires that the strategic priorities are “laid before Parliament”. I also have Amendment 123, which requires that they are laid and approved by Parliament, and Amendment 124, which is maybe more of a compromise on these issues. It would mean that the Bill cannot come into force

“unless a document setting out the thematic headings of the statement of strategic priorities have been laid before Parliament”.

Maybe somewhere around there is where we might be able to coalesce. In any case, this is an issue that needs further work and constructive compromise. My sense is that there are some concerns about these matters on all sides of the Committee. In the first debate on the Bill, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, mentioned that this needs to be in the Bill—I welcome that statement. I look forward to working with the Minister to find a solution.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I was going to stand aside from this debate early in the process because of the mountain of expertise that is building up on all sides of this Committee against many aspects of the Bill. It is not our job to turn it down in this House, but it is our job to try to improve and rescue some of the bits that may be particularly dangerous and damaging, of which there are several that we will no doubt come to. I was going to stay silent, but my noble friend Lord Effingham’s splendid speech touched on so many of the fundamental problems that are so obvious in this exercise—setting up this kind of body with this kind of money.

We have of course been here before. We went over this again and again in the 1960s, with the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation, when almost exactly the same arguments were used. Many of us on all sides—it was not partisan—questioned whether that bright idea of Harold Wilson and a Mr Cant, one of its designers, would work. I hope now that we leave our mark of doubt and scepticism about whether this whole approach works.

The IRC failed because the belief prevalent among economists at the time was that if you built big and created such things as British Leyland, size would deliver. Unfortunately, size did not deliver and there was a mood and a realisation—this was long before the digital revolution—that size might have diseconomies, as was then proved with projects such as British Leyland, a disaster from which Japanese inward investment 10 or 20 years later saved us. That was the third reason why I was not going to say very much at this stage.

I apologise for being a few minutes late for the Minister’s excellent speech on the last set of amendments, but there was a gap, something which he did not mention. My noble friend Lord Hamilton intervened about Sizewell. The Minister then produced the standard line on Sizewell, but he did not mention money. Yet money is the whole issue in organising our resources for the energy transition to come, which will be fearfully expensive, particularly if we have to leave unused a very large chunk of intermittent supporting energy—nuclear and other sorts—for the 3,000 hours every year when the wind does not blow. Until we get to the hydrogen stage, which we are a decade or so off, I suspect, that will leave a big gap to fill with otherwise idle machinery—which is very expensive indeed if it is not earning or producing. None of that has been touched on yet. The more that I listen to this, the more I see that we are heading into a nightmare of expenditure problems and dilemmas.

The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, with his ruthless clarity, hinted that this is the way things are going. The only saving grace from here is to have a system of accountability, a strategy and a clear and honest recognition of the colossal dilemmas ahead and the timescale, particularly for nuclear. Perhaps we will not discuss nuclear very much, although there are related amendments, but the issues of not only cost but timescale have been totally ignored.

There is chatter around, although even the Government estimate that Sizewell C will cost about £20 billion, as opposed to whatever Hinkley C is now running at. My bet would be that it is much nearer to £20 billion than £30 billion, but never mind about that. The question is: who has the money? The Government have not got it. Governments all across the world, and certainly our Government, are underwater on debt, understandably reluctant to tax more and not really able to borrow more. It will have to be done with the private sector, but the private sector will not touch something like Sizewell C, which is a dodgy EPR design that has not worked well anywhere in the world so far.

The timescale for Sizewell C is probably the mid to late 2030s. The alternatives of the new technologies in nuclear—I am sorry to bring this into a non-nuclear discussion—are massive. Rolls-Royce is talking about being able to deliver clean green electricity by 2030 or 2031. No one, even a super-optimist, believes that Sizewell C can touch our electricity supply before 2037 or 2038; I bet it will turn out to be 2040 or later still. These things have not been touched on yet, so goodness knows how we will deal with them as we come to all the amendments lying ahead. The one saving grace is that we would have a chance for both Houses and those who are informed about these things to point out at every point some of the further dangers and damages into which this entire structure will slump.

That is what one has to add at this stage. I am afraid that the Minister will not be pleased to hear that ahead lies a vast pile of questions and doubts about this project and the philosophy behind it—a philosophy of setting up large, semi-state-owned or state-owned organisations to push through things that apparently cannot be produced by the private sector alone. The philosophy simply does not work in the digital age. It did not work with the IRC before the digital age, it will not work in the digital age, and it will not work in the AI age. The nature of the economy is quite different from even 20 or 30 years ago. These are the problems which now have to be addressed, and they certainly will not be addressed by this.

I am afraid that we are heading for a lot more amendments on the detail of everything I have said. In the meantime, both the amendments that have been debated are excellent and should be accepted by the Government as part of the vital need for Parliament to have a regular, continuous, accountable and effective say, maybe with a special Select Committee. We invented Select Committees in the 1960s and they worked very well for departments. The Select Committees here are excellent and produce superb reports. Maybe this is an area where we need to beef up our own penetrating techniques on Select Committees and reports, to ensure that there are no more blunders ahead. I would bet $100 or more, if I was a betting man, which I am not, that there are plenty of blunders coming along, written into the Bill as it stands.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, very briefly, I offer Green group support for Amendment 56 and, in particular, Amendment 116, which has broad support, as we see from the signatures. I declare my interest as a member of the advisory committee, as I think it is now called, Peers for the Planet. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, has already said many of the things I was going to say. I just add that I can go back even further than she did, to the Pension Schemes Act 2021. That was an historic moment, with climate being written into a finance Bill for the first time ever.

I have been in your Lordships’ House for five years, and we have had win after win, as the noble Baroness just outlined. It really is time for us to stop having to bring this to the House to be inserted, taking up so many hours of your Lordships’ time to get us to the point at which clearly the Government should have started.

I will add an additional point to what the noble Baroness, Lady Young, said. In the recent election, Labour explicitly said that it was aiming to take a joint nature and climate approach to its way of operating the Government. This surely has to be written into the Bill.

To set the context, a nature recovery duty was discussed in the other place. My honourable friends Siân Berry and Adrian Ramsay were prominent in that, along with people from other parties. We are one of the most nature-depleted corners of this battered planet, but our statutory duty is at the moment only to stop the decline, not even to make things better. We surely cannot be creating such an important new institution as this without building nature into its statutory obligations. The Government regularly remind us that the economy and GDP growth is their number one priority, but the economy is a complete subset of the environment. The parlous state of our environment is an important factor in the parlous state of our economy.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly to Amendment 116, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to which I have added my name. I am sorry the noble Baroness is unable to be here today, and I wish her well. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for speaking to this amendment.

The amendment would give Great British Energy

“a climate and nature duty requiring it to take all reasonable steps to contribute to the achievement of the Climate Change Act 2008 and Environment Act 2021 targets in exercising its functions and delivering on the objects in clauses 3 and 5”.

We face a climate change issue and a nature issue; they are interlinked and co-dependent. The actions that we take on climate change cannot be at the expense of biodiversity and nature, particularly in our seabed, which locks up so much blue carbon. We are still developing our understanding of just how important that is, and how susceptible the seabed is to disturbance. The two are interlinked and interdependent, and they have to be seen together. The more that we can do this across all our public bodies, the better we will be.

A nature recovery element to the proposed duty would give GB Energy statutory direction to invest in clean energy projects that meet the highest of environmental standards. It is really important to make sure that the work GB Energy does on climate change also supports nature. That would give it a key concentration in its broad decision-making and investment decision-making, as well as in projects, project management and delivery. A nature recovery duty would give GB Energy the power to use nature-based solutions and to review what it does and hold itself to account, and for us in Parliament to do the same.

The Crown Estate Bill and the Water (Special Measures) Bill have been mentioned already. Both those Bills have had the addition of a general climate change and nature target. This was a welcome development, which I was very pleased to see. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for the work she has done, and to Peers for the Planet and other Members of this House who were involved in those processes. That target is an important part of our transition.

I was pleased to see the same amendment proposed to the GB Energy Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, worked constructively with the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, to get that done, and they found a wording that worked for both of them in the context of this Bill. The context exists: GB Energy’s primary partner is the Crown Estate, so half of this partnership has a reporting requirement already. At a very minimum, if this amendment is not accepted or amended to make it acceptable, the amendment in the Crown Estate Bill has to be mirrored in this Bill. I have tabled an amendment in a later group which picks up on that work and seeks to make sure that that happens.

These are important matters. I hope that this amendment can be carried forward. Labour made a commitment in its manifesto not only to fight climate change but to protect nature. It is important that the institutions that this Government set up to fight climate change also implement Labour’s other manifesto commitments.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 116, I declare my interest. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for all she has done in this area in general, and in relation to this amendment in particular.

I want to make a specific point, and I made it at Second Reading. I do not think that we have enough detail on the objects, directions or priorities; there is a lack of specificity to them. The Minister has said he does not want what he has called constraints, which I can understand, but to other people such constraints are clarifications. Somewhere between the two, there has got to be a measure of talking to see how we achieve that.

There is a case in company law called Re Introductions Ltd. I mention it because the facts illustrate how important it is to get these things right. The company in the case was set up to introduce overseas visitors to the delights of Britain at the time of the Festival of Britain. For reasons that are not entirely clear, the company changed its activities and went into pig-breeding, completely against what was said in the objects clause and in breach of directors’ duties and so on. The law on objects clauses has changed a great deal, but it is still important that we are able to see that directors are going to do the things that we want them to do. That is what Amendment 116 is all about.

I will not delay the Committee too long because the ground has already been trodden on how this is something we should be doing. It should not come as a surprise to the Government that your Lordships want this Bill to be about ensuring we take proper regard of the Climate Change Act, which has had support from across the House. We supported it during our period in government; indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, chaired the Climate Change Committee. It is important that we embed it and the commitment to the environmental targets for biodiversity in the legislation, as there is a read-across between the two: if you do one it has a beneficial effect on the other, and vice versa.

As other noble Lords have said, this would be consistent with the Government’s approach. They have already done this in the Water (Special Measures) Bill, which they amended so that Ofwat has to abide by the climate and nature duty, and in the Crown Estate Bill, as has been mentioned, which was amended to ensure that the commissioners keep under review the impact of their activities on the achievement of sustainable development. I do not think it is a great deal to ask of the Government to have a consistent approach, to adhere to it and to make sure this legislation works accordingly. I hope the Minister will be able to give a favourable indication of what will happen between now and Report, because it is very reasonable to request that this be written into the legislation.

Great British Energy Bill

Earl Russell Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom on carbon accounting. He said that he does not know very much about oilseed rape, but I do. About 20 years ago, in some of the very earliest stages of emissions reduction, I was involved commercially in that.

My noble friend asked that we should have pilot plants and studies to see whether the energy balance of oilseed rape can be done, as if it has never been done before. I can tell your Lordships that pilot plants were set up on Teesside, at enormous expense, and analysed to death. Although this is not a debate on farming, I can say that, at normal yields, when all was said and done, after the ploughing, sowing, fertilising, spraying, harvesting, processing and transportation, you came ahead on a carbon basis only when or if you burned the straw that otherwise would have been left behind in the field. Of course, at low yields, you spent more carbon on growing it than you got back at the end.

I make no other comment save to say that my noble friend is correct that, often, superficially attractive green energy schemes, when you boil them down, cost more carbon than they yield. That is important to look at because, otherwise, we could sleepwalk into an enormous waste of public funds through GB Energy, chasing projects that do not hit the target—which, of course, is to allow us to be more sustainable in future.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly. If I may, I will call out the elephant in the room on this Bill. We have had 10 groups of amendments turned into 18 groups on this final day in Committee—over half of the groups that we are discussing today are the result of one party degrouping amendments. We have spent over two hours speaking to the first group of amendments, and we have 18 groups to speak to today. I have heard a lot of speeches, but in the case of many, I could not tell which amendment they were even speaking to.

I will say just this: we support the Government and the Bill. This is an extremely important Bill. I am pleased to see action taken on these measures after the Conservative Party failed to do anything about it, left bill payers vulnerable to the increase in bills as a result of the war in Ukraine and ended up spending £40 billion of taxpayers’ money subsidising bill payers for no long-term benefits. In this group, we are generally supportive of Amendments 61, 65, 69, 70 and 74. For groups that we feel were unnecessarily degrouped, we will probably not make comments.

[The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, because it seems to me that we have “enjoyed” what essentially has been a rerun of previous debates, with Second Reading-type speeches, when the key concern, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, suggests, is Clause 6 and the power of direction.

So I do want to come back to the intent of Clause 6. First, we want GBE to be operationally independent. A founding principle of GBE is that it should be independent as far as possible in executing its functions. The Bill is focused on making the minimum necessary provisions to establish the company. At Second Reading, some noble Lords opposite accused the Government of drafting the Bill in a way that meant we would use Clause 6 to micromanage GBE. We have always maintained, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, rightly pointed out, that this is a backstop provision, yet now noble Lords opposite seek to micromanage both the Government and GBE by these various amendments, most of the issues in which we have already debated.

Secondly, we have set up GBE as a company for long-term success and as an enduring institution. Some of the amendments, which include short-term targets, would be wholly inappropriate in legislation. Indeed, it would be more appropriate for the Secretary of State to set priorities via the statement of strategic priorities in Clause 5, of course within the framework of Clause 3.

My third point is the intended use of the power in Clause 6. Let me make it absolutely clear, as I have done in the past, that the power to give directions to GBE is intended only for urgent or unforeseen circumstances. These amendments would widen the intention unnecessarily. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is right about the relationship between government and such organisations. She and I have both had experience in relation to the NHS; it is a slightly different set-up, but we are talking about the relationship between a government department, the Secretary of State and public bodies. She will know that there the Secretary of State has always had a power of direction, but I think it has had to be used only a handful of times. The reason of course is that chief execs of NHS bodies understand that the Secretary of State is able to set the overall direction of the National Health Service without having to call on what is essentially a backstop power.

My fourth point on a number of the amendments is that the existing reporting requirements are set out in the Bill, which makes provision for GBE to produce and publish an annual report and accounts. They will undergo external audit; they will contain information on the activity of the company over the year; and they will also include reporting in line with the recommendations of the Task Force on Climate-Related Financial Disclosures. GBE may also make information available through reporting, such as when projects or investments are announced. We think that that is sufficient accountability.

On some points raised by noble Lords on Amendment 59, we believe that in an unstable world, the only way to guarantee our energy security and protect bill payers permanently is to speed up the transition from fossil fuels to home-grown clean energy. This is consistent with advice from the Climate Change Committee and it is why we have set an ambitious target to reach clean power by 2030, which the independent NESO considers achievable. We believe that the key role of BGE is focused on driving forward deployment.

I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that I agree with them on the importance of nuclear power. But I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that this is the second time he has tried to divert the Government from supporting Sizewell C. I say to him that this is a massive development and we are moving to final investment decisions over the next few months. It will produce 3.2 gigawatts, it is a replica of Hinkley Point C, 80% above ground, and we have the regulated asset-based approach which will bring in private sector expertise and disciplines. So, in agreeing with him on the importance of small modular reactors and advanced nuclear reactors, we should not underestimate the potential of Sizewell C—and indeed Hinkley Point C when it comes on line, I hope at the end of this decade.

Of course I take the points that data centres will need a lot of electricity, that grid capacity issues are vital and that we need more investment in the grid. I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, about the beauty, or not, of pylons. I of course accept the point he makes, but we are going to have to have more pylons. None the less, they will have to go through vigorous planning and meet environmental protection requirements.

On jobs and Amendment 60, GBE aims to revitalise the UK’s industrial areas and we think that, by situating its headquarters in Aberdeenshire—which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, will welcome—it will be able to leverage the skilled workforce available there and throughout Scotland. More broadly, we have set up the Office for Clean Energy Jobs to promote clean energy employment and focus on skills development and training in the core energy and net-zero sectors.

Amendments 61 and 76 concern supply chains, which are of course very important indeed. GBE’s founding statement has already made it clear that my department expects the company to prioritise the development of supply chains and to report to government on progress. To come to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, of course we have debated these matters over the years and I absolutely understand where he is coming from. But it will be for GBE as an operationally independent company to determine the projects and technologies it chooses to invest in, in accordance with its objectives. It will be expected to respect human rights under the Human Rights Act 1998 and it will be subject to the provisions on forced labour and supply chains, both under the Modern Slavery Act 2015 and the Procurement Act 2023.

We recently set out our Clean Power 2030 Action Plan, which requires significant deployment of solar electricity—noble Lords are right on that. Developing sustainable, diverse and resilient solar supply chains, free from forced labour, is important for the Government. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, knows, we also have the Solar Taskforce, which will be looking at these matters.

On Amendment 63 on the cost of fulfilling the company’s strategic objectives, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Petitgas, that the Secretary of State will set ambitious but achievable objectives for Great British Energy that can be achieved through the funding envelope. GBE will be backed, as noble Lords will know, by a capitalisation of £8.3 billion over this Parliament, and its objective is to crowd in additional private sector investment. However, it will be subject to HM Treasury’s value-for-money guidelines and, like existing publicly financed institutions, its investments will be subject to safeguards and risk assessments.

On Amendments 69, 70 and 85A, on the impact on carbon emissions of GBE’s investments, the company is committed to advancing the deployment of clean energy to aid the Government’s goal of decarbonising our electricity system by 2030. The amendments would require a report to be produced for every investment made by Great British Energy, which seems neither proportionate nor effective. On importing energy into the UK, we acknowledge that reliance on imported fossil fuels presents economic and security risks, as evidenced by the situation following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The best response is to increase domestic power generation through renewable energy sources and nuclear power, while simultaneously transitioning to more sustainable methods for heating homes, fuelling vehicles and powering industry. These can substantially mitigate our exposure to volatile international markets and energy price fluctuations. We see GBE as being at the heart of those efforts.

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Moved by

[Earl Russell]

66: Clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may not give specific or general directions to Great British Energy unless they have delivered an oral statement setting out those directions before Parliament.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would prevent the SoS from directing GBE unless they have delivered an oral statement to Parliament.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to open this group of amendments, all on consultation and oversight, and to move my Amendment 66 in this group. Amendment 66 seeks to prevent the Secretary of State from directing GB Energy unless they have previously delivered an Oral Statement to both Houses of Parliament. Our view is that this is a reasonable check and balance on the use of these powers. My amendment does not stop the Secretary of State from giving strategic directions; it simply requires that, before doing so, the Secretary of State must have previously given this Oral Statement to both Houses.

We recognise that, for the Government, this is a reserve power that would be used only in emergencies. We also recognise that the Bill as written requires the Secretary of State to have previously consulted with GB Energy and any other persons the Secretary of State considers appropriate, and that the directions must be laid before Parliament. Our concern is that these are both very powerful controls given to the Secretary of State and, even with the condition to lay the direction before Parliament, that is done only after the direction is given. There is no opportunity for Parliament to discuss in any form the direction given or the reasons for it, or to have any opportunity to amend it before the direction is given to GB Energy. Parliament also has no say or chance to contribute to the form the direction should take. There is no way that Parliament can change the shape of it or amend it. These powers are absolute: GB Energy is directed in statute that it must comply with the directions given under this part of the Bill.

I draw the Committee’s attention to the fourth report of the 2024-25 Session of the House of Lords Constitution Committee, published on 28 November, which says of these provisions that,

“we are concerned that clauses 5 and 6 amount to ‘disguised legislation’. … This is of constitutional concern because there is no parliamentary oversight over the making of the statement of strategic priorities or the directions to Great British Energy”.

I must admit that I have to agree with that assessment. Our view is that, if there is a level of need such that directions from the Secretary of State are required, then there is also a level of concern such that a Statement should be provided to both Houses of Parliament.

When matters have gone this badly wrong, it is also important that Parliament should be given the opportunity to scrutinise what went wrong and why and what proposals the Secretary of State is bringing to make them right again. It is important that Parliament is given the right to look at how the new plans might work in practice and to be able to advise and raise objections with and suggest improvements to the Secretary of State. The Minister may come back on this amendment and may speak of this being a reserve power. He may say that these will be used rarely, if they are ever used at all; but when they will be needed, they will be needed urgently. The Minister may also argue that the Secretary of State would have previously consulted with GB Energy and others as the Secretary of State saw fit. This is all correct, but consultation in private could amount to no more than delivering the unhappiness on behalf of the Government and instructing the direction to GB Energy. These meetings happen in private, and Parliament is not privy to any of this information or the outcomes.

The Minister may also argue that these powers have been used in—and, indeed, directly copied from—the nuclear energy Bill. To that, I might kindly argue that nuclear accidents and nuclear emergencies are of a different order of magnitude to our renewable sector, although I do recognise the need for urgency when it comes to our energy supply and energy security. I also recognise that GB Energy will have a role in the nuclear sector—although that is to be strictly defined as yet—and, if the Minister wishes, a government amendment to my amendment could call for an exemption for either a nuclear accident or a national energy security emergency. I would be interested in the Minister’s response to my amendment, and I would be happy to discuss this with the Minister prior to Report.

For all other cases, my view is that an urgent Statement can be tabled in both Houses in a matter of mere days, and this can run concurrently while the Minister fulfils his other obligations in respect of consulting with GB Energy and others. Our view is that this is a carefully crafted amendment which seeks to balance the need to address emergency issues against the need for proper and full parliamentary scrutiny to take place. These may be reserve powers, but they are absolute powers, and they are under the sole control of the Secretary of State. They are enacted after consultations and are merely reported to Parliament after they have been enacted.

I ask the Government to think carefully. I know that they might feel that these powers are safe in their hands, but how would the Minister feel if, for example, Labour were to lose the next general election and these powers were in the hands of another Administration? I think it is in that light that the Government should reflect on whether there is a need for a further check and balance on these powers.

Turning to the other amendments in this group, Amendment 87, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, goes further than my amendment. It says:

“A Minister must table a motion for resolution in each House of Parliament on any directions given to Great British Energy under this section before the directions are adopted”.


I am generally supportive of this amendment, but I have two concerns about it. First, holding a vote will take more time. Secondly, if Parliament, for whatever reason, decided not to approve the directions, I wonder what the consequence would be, because these directions are only given in emergency situations. That is an unlikely consequence, but I do not necessarily agree that having a vote actually helps in this case. What I am interested in is parliamentary scrutiny and conversation, not Parliament having the right to have a vote on this issue.

Finally, Amendment 86, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, amends Clause 6 by adding that consultation should take place with the National Energy System Operator, the Climate Change Committee and the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority. This amendment is helpful, but to my mind it does not resolve the issue; the issue is one of parliamentary scrutiny, and Amendment 86 does not provide further parliamentary scrutiny. The heart of this, for me, is simply having greater opportunities for parliamentary scrutiny while not delaying emergency actions. That is what I am trying to balance. I beg to move.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, Amendment 86 in my name is, as noble Lords will realise, very similar to Amendment 56 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, which was spoken to last month by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale. The point is that we all have concerns about the overwhelming statutory powers of the Secretary of State to control, and give random formal directions to, GBE. As I said at Second Reading, we are worried that modern politicians are no longer likely to have had experience of running a business, particularly an investment business, which is what this is. On the whole, the same applies to civil servants who might be advising the Secretary of State. They also usually have little experience of the nitty-gritty of day-to-day private sector business and its associated hour-by-hour assessment of risk and, more to the point, when to take that risk. In other words, you cannot always be totally safety conscious.

Probably the key person with whom the Secretary of State should be consulting is a private sector investment analyst, or even a team of private sector investment analysts, as the noble Lord, Lord Petitgas, was saying early on in the previous discussions. That might be hard to spell out on the face of the Bill, so I will leave that one hanging. As noble Lords can sense, however, I am not at all happy that a politics-orientated—maybe even a party- politics-orientated—Secretary of State of either party should be able to give any direction at all on the issue of practical investment to a hopefully business-orientated board of GBE. I support Amendment 68 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell.

The next thing to say is that Clause 6(3)(b) is superfluous. It states that the Secretary of State should consult

“such other persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”.

It is legally meaningless. The Secretary of State could take it or leave it. If he consults with no one, he can claim he did not consider anyone appropriate, so he is under no obligation to consult anyone, apart from Great British Energy, as it stands in Clause 6(3)(a). We therefore need some more specific recommendations.

It is of course right that the Secretary of State should have to consult GBE—after all, it will implement whatever direction he or she gives it—but the Secretary of State should also consult NESO. After all, it is responsible for driving the delivery of our power through the national grid and other transmission companies—we discussed this on another group—so, clearly, it needs to be consulted.

Then there is the Climate Change Committee, which is in very close touch with the state of play of the progress to net zero. It is also in touch with the latest science and knows the priorities of what is most needed to get us to net zero. It will have a view on what could or should be the essential focus of GBE, so it should also be consulted.

Then of course there is Ofgem, which represents the consumers and is their voice, so it seems only right that it should also be consulted on any formal direction from the Secretary of State to GBE. There may be others, and I take the point from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, about the fact that my list is of consultants, rather than Parliament, which might be able to influence the direction of the Secretary of State in a more formal way—although I hope that a consultation exercise would also influence his decision-making process.

In his response to Amendment 56 last month, the Minister seemed to say that the amendment was unnecessary because the Secretary of State would be in permanent consultation with all the organisations involved anyway, but he was at that time talking about the consultation on the strategic priorities in Clause 5 and here we are talking about later specific directions given by the Secretary of State to GBE. After all, the Government themselves put Clause 6(3) in the Bill, so they must have thought that highlighting the importance of consultation, and whom it is with, was important and necessary. In my view, they did not make it specific enough, or possibly wide enough, so I hope they can accept that they should enlarge their constituency of consultees.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Cryer) (Lab)]

My Lords, I now turn, as you would expect, to Amendments 66, 86, 86A and 87, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. As I have said, and as my noble friend has said previously, Clause 6 sets out that the Secretary of State will be able to give directions to Great British Energy, and that Great British Energy must comply with those directions.

As Great British Energy will be operationally independent, the intention is that the power will be used only when it is really needed. This will ensure that GBE has the space it requires to fulfil its role and deliver its strategic priorities. I draw the House’s attention to the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, in this context.

The purpose of the clause is to ensure that there is a mechanism in place should any urgent or unforeseen circumstances arise. For example, it could be used if the Secretary of State considers that they need to give GBE a direction that is in the interest of national security or otherwise in the public interest. The amendments before us would risk delaying the Secretary of State’s ability to give Great British Energy that direction, potentially compromising national security under certain circumstances.

The noble Earl, Lord Russell, raised the perfectly reasonable points of accountability and scrutiny. I am not impugning his motives—or the motives of anybody else who has tabled amendments—but if there was an issue of national security that perhaps took place at the start of a recess, it would seriously hamper the Secretary of State’s ability to act.

The noble Earl also raised, interestingly, the possibility of Labour losing the next election. It may come as a shock, but we are not actually planning to lose the next election. However, the mechanism of accountability and the decisions of this Government and future Governments are subject to the views of voters. That is part of the democratic process. We might not like a future Government exercising the directions we have put on the statute book, but that probably applies to past Governments as well. It is part of the democratic process and the process of accountability and scrutiny.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, would take this point further by requiring the resolution of each House, which I genuinely do not think is practicable. However, to ensure transparency and accountability, any directions given to Great British Energy will be published and laid before Parliament before they are given.

Further, Clause 6 requires that the Secretary of State must consult GBE and other persons considered appropriate, before giving directions to GBE. This means that GBE’s management and its board—yet to be appointed—will have the opportunity to express any reservations they have about the direction to Ministers before any such direction is made. If appropriate, this could include the National Energy System Operator, the Climate Change Committee—which has been consulted by successive Governments—the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority, Great British Nuclear and the National Wealth Fund, as well as groups not referenced in Amendment 86.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, mentioned at least two of the organisations on that list; he mentioned others too, as I think did the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. We could end up with a list as long as your arm of bodies that have to be consulted, which would seriously hamper the Secretary of State’s room for manoeuvre.

Finally, it is not unusual for a Secretary of State to be able to direct an arm’s-length body and such powers are found in several pieces of legislation—again referenced by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. In the specific context of government-owned companies, such powers are, for example, included in the Energy Act 2023, which created Great British Nuclear, where named stakeholders are also not included in the directions clause.

For these reasons, I hope the noble Earl recognises that adding this detail would not be beneficial and will withdraw his amendment.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

In my speech, I recognised the needs of national emergencies or an energy emergency. One of the options I offered the Government was to allow them to amend my amendment to exempt those situations from the need to give an Oral Statement. Will the Minister respond to that specific point, please?

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

The noble Earl makes a fair comment. However, what he is putting forward is far too prescriptive. There are plenty of precedents for Secretaries of State being able to operate in this way.

I am starting to sound like the secretary of the Baroness Noakes fan club, but the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, pointed out that there is the ability to summon the Secretary of State before a Select Committee. There are various Select Committees which have the ability to summon Secretaries of State after the fact. Ministers of all Governments might not be that keen on appearing before Select Committees, but they do not have a lot of choice in the matter. In the vast majority of cases when they are summoned, they appear before the Select Committee and give an account of their actions.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank the Minister for responding, and I thank everybody who spoke in the debate: the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.

These are important issues; they are absolute powers. I recognise the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, that there are other ways of summoning Ministers and that the whole idea of ministerial accountability is that Parliament afterwards can question Ministers. I think that is a bit of a second-tier kind of accountability, but I recognise that there may be situations where the Government need to act with urgency and even the act of giving a Statement could impede the Government from doing that, whether it relates to nuclear energy, energy security or foreign interference in our energy security. I did, therefore, offer the Government the possibility of amending my amendment.

It is important that we have discussed these issues. They are important powers, and it is important we debate them. I do not think we found an answer or a way forward, but the debate itself has been interesting. I thank the Government.

Amendment 66 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly to respond to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fuller. We congratulate him on moving his first amendment—indeed, he got his own group of amendments together, which is to be welcomed. I am afraid that, on these Benches, we cannot support what he is doing; this is just not the right Bill to do it. Even if his amendments were successful, all they would do is limit the powers of Great British Energy to do this stuff; they do not limit any other organisation or body from doing it.

It is very important that the Government come forward with the land use framework as quickly as possible—these are important issues. My understanding is that that Bill should come through in April or around then. These are complicated issues; we are a small island and there is lots of competition on our land use.

Labour also promised us a rooftop solar revolution. We strongly support that and encourage the Government to continue to work on its delivery. France, for example, gets 5% of its electricity from solar panels on car parks. I would like to see this Government replicating that. We have heard about warehouses, but many are constructed to a standard that cannot take solar panels, because the roofs are not strong enough. We must do more to get solar panels into commercial spaces and housing.

I also encourage the Government to do more on the future homes standard. There is uncertainty about whether it will have proper, fit and strong purposes and standards for new-build houses. Then there is the issue of retrofitting existing houses and how we get more energy-efficient measures into them.

I will point out something to the Conservative Benches. The idea that we can either eat or have solar panels is a false dichotomy. I note that, while Amendment 67 applies to agricultural land of grades 1, 2 or 3, Amendment 73 applies to agricultural land of grades 4 and 5, so the Conservatives are covering quite a lot of grades with their amendments. I argue that climate change itself is the biggest issue for us in terms of food security, not solar panels that cover far less than 1% of our land. We have just had the worst harvest since 1988—if not ever, as some people say—and that was because of a continuous wet climate. We have had the failure of the last autumn and winter crops. It is climate change itself that is causing us to have problems with food security—and that is causing massive problems for our farmers.

I welcome the amendments but they are not ones that we can support.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for missing the first bit of my noble friend’s introduction to his amendments. I take this opportunity to ask the Minister whether he could update the Committee on where we are with the land use strategy. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I, too, have been banging that drum for some time.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, gently chided my noble friend for the length of his introduction, I say to her that he is perfectly entitled to speak for 12 and a half minutes when introducing an amendment. That would not be the case if he were just one of the rest of us.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, it has just gone 10 pm. We are just over half way through the Government’s stated targets for this evening. As the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, said, it is highly unlikely that we can finish another eight groups any time soon.

It is a firm convention that the House rises at 10 pm between Monday and Wednesday, and there has been no agreement to the contrary. We have had, thus far to date, one and a half days in Committee against a committed three days. This is a significant Bill; £8.3 billion worth of taxpayers’ money is going into it. We owe it the scrutiny that such public spending, rightly, should deserve. I ask the Government Chief Whip whether he will resume the House now or fairly soon after.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

Will the Opposition Chief Whip take an intervention? I just want to point out that there have been two and a half days of scrutiny and not one and a half days. She is not correct.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think that the noble Earl was not listening to me. I said that, to date, we have had one and a half days of scrutiny, and tonight would make two and a half days. The Government committed to three days. That was the point I was making.

Great British Energy Bill

Earl Russell Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to follow the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, in speaking to Amendment 93, which he moved on behalf on my noble friend Lady Noakes. I have also added my name to this amendment.

As has been said several times in our debates, this is in essence a framework or enabling Bill but one that gives a large number of Henry VIII powers to the Secretary of State. A requirement to produce a framework document setting out the operating and financial principles that GBE will use would be a significant improvement to the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, explained so eloquently. It is essential that the principles underpinning the relationship between the Secretary of State and GBE should be publicly understood and supported. The arguments that I have previously used in relation to my Amendment 86A also apply here; other relevant public bodies, as mentioned in that amendment, clearly include GBN, NWF, NESO, Ofgem and Mission Control.

I also support my noble friend Lady Noakes in her Amendment 121A, which I think is justified in the circumstances, but I would certainly like to hear the Minister’s view on it. Amendment 121A would ensure that the framework document is laid before Parliament before the Act comes into force.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly on this group of amendments.

I generally give my support to Amendment 93. I understand that these things are being done quickly and urgently to get GBE established and that the Government need to get that done, but there is a general lack of detail in the Bill and we do not have the framework agreement. If the Minister could update the Committee on where that framework document is and what stage it is at, that would be useful. In the interests of trying to find a compromise and a way forward on these issues, I do not know whether it might be possible for the Minister to provide the equivalent of heads of terms or to say something from the Dispatch Box about what he would expect the framework document to cover or to send us an outline of what is likely to be in that document. We are keen to support the principles of this Bill, but the Bill is extremely short and lacks detail.

On the other side of the fence, there is a slight feeling that we are being asked to approve things without knowing what it is we are approving. If it were possible to find a way forward on these issues before Report, that would be appreciated, but I am interested to hear from the Minister what stage these documents are at and what impediments there may be beyond the Minister’s control in these matters.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Noakes, in her absence, for her amendments in this group. In fact, this amendment, Amendment 93, ties closely with Amendment 125 in my name, which would ensure that this Bill does not come into force until a financial framework document has been published. Together, these amendments address an essential issue in the governance of GBE: the need for proper financial oversight and clear frameworks that ensure that this body is held accountable. That is the reason why I support Amendment 93 and why it is so critical to the Bill—because it would require the Secretary of State to prepare a framework document that sets out not just the operating principles but the financial principles through which GBE will pursue its strategic objectives.

Without this clear framework, GBE would operate without the financial clarity and accountability required to protect public funds and to ensure that GBE’s financial practices align with the UK’s broader energy strategy. A financial framework is not just a bureaucratic detail; it is fundamental because the energy sector is complex and fast-moving. GB Energy will be responsible for substantial public investment. Without this financial framework, there is a risk of financial mismanagement and inefficiency or lack of transparency. The framework simply provides clear guidelines on budgeting, expenditure, revenue generation and risk management; it also ensures that GBE’s financial decisions align with the Government’s energy and climate goals, such as achieving net-zero emissions and maintaining energy security.

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[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Offord’s Amendment 94, to which I have added my name. I have also added my name to Amendment 103 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Cameron, and my noble friend Lady Noakes.

The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, made the same point that I tried to make on Monday much more eloquently than I did: GBE and GBN are not comparable institutions. Unfortunately, it seems that the Minister’s department does not recognise that. I refer to the Explanatory Notes at page 6, paragraph 22. The power to give directions in the hands of the Secretary of State

“is consistent with the power that the Government has to direct comparable institutions, for example: the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero has a statutory power to direct Great British Nuclear, although, to date, this has never been used”.

I repeat the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that, despite what this says, I cannot think that they are comparable institutions.

Both Amendments 94 and 103 require an independent person to carry out a review of GBE’s effectiveness. Of the two, I prefer Amendment 103, which requires the independent person to review the extent to which investments by GBE have encouraged private sector investment in those projects. Amendment 94 requires an annual independent review, whereas Amendment 103 requires such a review only once every three years. Perhaps we could compromise at two years.

I have also added my name to Amendment 102, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell. This requires GBE to report on its relationships with other connected bodies and is, to some extent, similar to some of the other amendments we have debated. It is obviously a requirement of working together on strategic objectives and directions that GBE should maintain excellent relationships with its stakeholders. One of the ways to achieve that would be by adopting the noble Earl’s amendment, and I look forward to hearing him speak to it and to hearing the Minister’s response.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendment 102 in this group, which concerns independent review and governance. It would insert a new clause after Clause 7 on Great British Energy stakeholder relationships. To be honest, it is a bit of a probing amendment and one that is looking for a bit of reassurance from the Minister.

The amendment argues:

“Within one year of the day on which this Act is passed, and every two years thereafter, Great British Energy must publish a report regarding its relationship with … Great British Nuclear … the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets (Ofgem) … National Energy System Operator (NESO) … the UK Infrastructure Bank … the Crown Estate”.


Obviously, it is essential that Great British Energy publishes reports and that these are available. It is important that we have a good understanding of how Great British Energy is working in practice. That involves understanding how it is establishing its working relationships alongside other partners and fulfilling its missions and goals, as we work towards net zero. It extends to objectives and joint projects and asks, “What problems are happening?” These are all key issues in the energy transition, which is itself a complicated business that involves lots of partner organisations and joint and crossover responsibilities. This is already a crowded space—or a tangled web, if you like—in which Great British Energy is being created. Indeed, the delivery of GB Energy’s goals will happen only if the new organisation builds strong and lasting relationships that develop well and help create both joint working and good outcomes.

I want to say a word about the Crown Estate Bill, if I may. It is the cornerstone of GB Energy’s relationship with the Crown Estate; their partnership was announced on the same day that GB Energy was created. Clearly—certainly for the initial part of GB Energy’s life—that partnership will be about developing floating offshore wind with the Crown Estate. As part of the Crown Estate Bill, an amendment was agreed in order that the Crown Estate produces an annual report on its relationship with GB Energy. So that is already happening on the Crown Estate side. I ask the Minister to give an assurance that, from the Government’s point of view, there is no reason why that requirement would not be mirrored on GB Energy’s side. I cannot see one; it seems like common sense to me. As others have said, reporting is a general issue running across this Bill.

I note what the Minister has said today in relation to group 10. I also note what he has said about the possibility for ongoing parliamentary scrutiny. Ministers are responsible, of course, for example at Question time. As the Minister has confirmed today at the Dispatch Box, GB Energy will be subject to scrutiny by all the Select Committees across both Houses of Parliament, but it is important that these relationships are reported on via an annual report. I would like to hear some reassurance from the Minister on that.

I turn briefly to the other amendments in this group. As we have heard, Amendment 94 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Offord of Garvel, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, would require the Secretary of State to appoint an independent person to review annually the effectiveness of Great British Energy in delivering its objectives, meeting its strategic priorities and complying with its directions. The independent review would be required to cover Clauses 3, 5 and 6 of the Bill.

I would be interested in the Minister’s response to this amendment. My worry is that this would be overly burdensome for the organisation. I am not certain that I was able to find another comparable organisation where these conditions applied, so my concern is whether we are asking for something that is not on a level playing field with other, similar types of organisations. I note as well that strategic directions can be given and, as I said, there are also other methods of scrutiny, so it would be the Minister’s right, at any point, to give the strategic direction for that to happen.

Amendment 103 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, would require an independent review of the effectiveness of Great British Energy in achieving its objectives and the extent to which it had encouraged private investment. But this would be every three years. I was interested to hear what the noble Lord said in relation to the UK Infrastructure Bank. Again, my worry is whether this is a level playing field, but I was interested that the noble Lord said that that is part of that organisation and how it works. That makes me more inclined to lend support to his amendment.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl. This was lifted directly, almost word for word, from the relevant legislation, the UK Infrastructure Bank Act.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank the noble Lord. I would be keen to hear what the Minister has to say in response to that amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate and I am grateful to noble Lords for what they have said. I will start with Amendment 102, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and supported by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. As he said, the amendment focuses on Great British Energy’s relationships with its key stakeholders and would require the company to publish a report every two years detailing its relationship with a number of named public bodies.

As I have already said, we of course expect and want Great British Energy to enter into a number of partnerships or relationships with other public bodies. This will include public bodies beyond those highlighted by the noble Earl, including, for example, those operating in the devolved Administrations—although I agree with him very much about the importance of the relationship with the Crown Estate.

I think it was implied in what I said earlier that we are absolutely certain, as part of the rigorous reporting requirements that the organisation will need to take part in through its annual reports and accounts, that it will report on activities undertaken as part of these partnerships. That seems to me a perfectly sensible request, which I can affirm readily. In view of that, I am not sure that you need a separate report, but we can make it very clear to GBE that we expect it to report on this regularly. We have already publicly committed to setting out how Great British Energy and the National Wealth Fund will collaborate and complement each other. I can assure noble Lords that we have made the same commitment on Great British Energy’s relationship with Great British Nuclear.

In terms of Great British Energy’s relationship with Ofgem and the National Energy System Operator, again, we would expect GBE to be subject to the same legal and regulatory frameworks as other entities. Clearly, when it comes to the Crown Estate, I readily say that, of course, GBE will report on its relationship, just as the noble Earl said. The Crown Estate will be doing similar, and we hope that there will be a consistency of approach in their reports. I am sure that there will be.

Turning to Amendments 94 and 103, which would require independent reviews of Great British Energy’s effectiveness, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Offord, Lord Vaux and Lord Cameron, and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for putting their names to them. We all agree that Great British Energy needs to be accountable, transparent and clear about how it is delivering against its objectives and the statement of strategic priorities. The Bill already ensures that GBE will provide regular updates through its annual reports and accounts. These documents will be laid before Parliament, ensuring public accountability. Clause 5 provides that GBE must “act in accordance” with the priorities set out by the Secretary of State. To ensure this, Great British Energy must publish a strategic plan on how it will deliver those priorities, and it will update this plan regularly.

On the question, generally, of a review, I certainly understand the point that noble Lords have made and agree that reviews are important. I am prepared to consider the principle of a review between Committee and Report. I would not want to get into a debate about how regular those reviews should be. It is important that GBE has a good run before it is subject to such a review. Equally, I do not think you want a review happening on a regular annual basis because that would detract from its ability to perform effectively, but I understand the principle of a review. I will take this away without commitment at this stage, but I am happy to talk to noble Lords between now and Report about it.

Coming back to additionality, we obviously agree that it is an important principle, and we would expect Great British Energy to learn from the UKIB/National Wealth Fund approach. Of course, GBE has rather a wider role than the National Wealth Fund, particularly in that it is not just an investor but a developer, and it has an important future role to play in trying to get rid of some of the barriers to investment that we have seen in the energy sector.

Having said that, I think additionality will be covered. Equally, we accept that undertaking reviews from time to time is important. But they should not be done so frequently that they lose impact in what they are there to do. I hope noble Lords will accept that I have tried to be constructive in my response to these amendments.

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Moved by

[Earl Russell]

95: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause—
“Budget report(1) Great British Energy must publish an annual budget report and send it to the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, or any successor Committee, of the House of Commons.(2) This report must include but is not limited to—(a) a breakdown of current and expected funding sources;(b) spending per sector;(c) grid spending;(d) future spending;(e) estimations of future profitability.(3) A representative of Great British Energy must appear before the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, or any successor Committee, if requested by the Committee.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires GBE to publish an annual budget report.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 95, I will speak also to my Amendments 96 and 97, on accountability to Parliament. This group is all about GB Energy reporting to Parliament. As I have said, the Bill is quite short and some bits are missing, so I think noble Lords are just looking for as much reassurance as the Minister can give on these matters.

As the Bill stands, there are no real basic requirements for GB Energy to produce an annual report, or requirements for it to report to Parliament, beyond those in Clause 7 and what the Minister has said at the Dispatch Box today. I note that GB Energy will be subject to the same general reporting as other arm’s-length government organisations.

My Amendment 95 would ask GB Energy to publish an annual budget report, which would be sent to the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee or a successor committee of the House of Commons. That report must include but not be limited to,

“a breakdown of current and expected funding sources … spending per sector … grid spending … future spending … estimations of future profitability”.

It goes on:

“A representative of Great British Energy must appear before the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, or any successor Committee, if requested”.


Amendment 96 says:

“Great British Energy must publish an annual report and send it to the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, or any successor Committee, of the House of Commons”,


and that that report

“must consider Great British Energy functions and activity in the contribution to the following … supporting local communities and economies … the achievement of the United Kingdom’s climate and environmental targets … the relationship with The Crown Estate … a just transition to green energy … a jobs and skills transition into the green economy”.

It would also provide that Great British Energy must appear before that committee if requested.

Amendment 97 would require GB Energy to commit to an ongoing sustainable development review of its activities. It states:

“Great British Energy must keep under review the impact of their activities on the achievement of sustainable development in the United Kingdom”.


This would require GB Energy to keep under constant review the impact of its activities on sustainable development goals, as recognised by the United Nations, the Commonwealth and other bodies that refer to human rights developments, which aim to meet the economic, environmental and social needs of the present, while also ensuring the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.

At the outset I acknowledge to the Committee that my amendment is a direct copy of one tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and so skilfully negotiated with the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, as part of the Crown Estate Bill. It was agreed as a government amendment to that Bill as it left your Lordships’ House. I wish to put on the record my thanks to both of them for their work in getting the amendment into the Bill. My reasons for bringing the amendment here again are, as I said, simply to mirror the other Bill, because the two organisations are so closely interlinked. For me, this is a minimum backstop amendment. I have added my name to Amendment 116, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and I continue to support it, but I wish to make clear that if that amendment falls, this one is a kind of backstop.

My amendments are relatively straightforward, so I will turn to the other amendment in this group, Amendment 117, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. This would hold Great British Energy accountable to the relevant parliamentary committees of both Houses of Parliament.

The Minister has said—I already suspected that this would be the case with an arm’s-length body—that this would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. It is good that he has confirmed that from the Dispatch Box. I just wanted to indicate my full support for the amendment and the principles that it sets out. It is obviously important that all bodies that the Government set up should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny from the Select Committees.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to the amendments in this group, which contains amendments in my name and those of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, one of which he moved. I thank the noble Earl for introducing this group; I appreciate the sentiment and spirit of his amendments, and his support for mine.

I do not wish to repeat noble Lords’ arguments from previous groups, but these amendments again seek to shape the governance, accountability and sustainability of the proposed Great British Energy entity. They have been drafted in line with the values of responsible governance, fiscal prudence and national interest, so, although I will not repeat his arguments, or those of my noble friend Lady Noakes from earlier, I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made by my noble friend Lord Roborough on the first group.

On Amendment 95, which would require GBE to publish an annual budget report, I appreciate the sentiment of ensuring transparency in how public funds are utilised. On these Benches, we have always championed the prudent use of taxpayers’ money, and this amendment acknowledges that principle. However, we must ensure that such reporting is not merely a box-ticking exercise. The report must provide meaningful insights, ensuring that GBE operates efficiently and delivers value for money. We cannot allow an additional layer of bureaucracy to stifle innovation or create unnecessary costs. Therefore, I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Russell, on the spirit of this amendment, and I look forward to hearing from other noble Lords about how the reporting requirement could best be used to ensure that GBE operates in the best interests of the nation.

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[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Cryer) (Lab)]

My Lords, I will begin with Amendments 95 and 96 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell.

Amendment 95 proposes requiring GBE to publish an annual budget report and send it to Parliament through the Commons Energy Security and Net Zero Select Committee—or its successor, as he said, since its name seems to keep changing every five minutes. Amendment 96 proposes requiring GBE to publish an annual report on various topics which must also be sent to the Select Committee. GBE will already have a requirement to produce publicly available annual reports and accounts at Companies House, and the Secretary of State will lay copies before Parliament.

The noble Earl, Lord Russell, also mentioned the requirement that the Secretary of State appear before the Select Committee to speak to those reports. That requirement is already fulfilled. I know that Select Committees cannot subpoena witnesses, so there is no compulsion, but the Secretary of State and other Ministers regularly appear before relevant Select Committees. I emphasise other Ministers with specific interests. Once GBE is up and running, and producing these accounts, that is the time when the Secretary of State will appear before the relevant Select Committees. In theory, the Secretary of State does not have to appear—as I said, there is no compulsion—but it would be pretty odd if they did not do so under those circumstances.

There are also additional requirements on government-owned companies to ensure transparency and accountability. These include the obligation to follow the Treasury’s directions on accounts through the powers extended in the Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000, and laid out in the Government Financial Reporting Manual and related “Dear Accounting Officer” letters. Furthermore, GBE will be required to report on its governance around, exposure to, and risk of, climate-related scenarios in its operations as set out by the Task Force on Climate-Related Financial Disclosures a couple of years ago.

I acknowledge the noble Lord’s expectation that Parliament will hold a strong interest in the performance of GBE, which anybody who knows anything about how Parliament works would expect. I fully anticipate that the relevant Select Committees will call representatives from the company and from the department to provide evidence when required.

The point about hydrogen made by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, is a little wide of the scope of the amendment. However, I remind noble Lords that the exact mix of technologies in which GBE, as an operationally independent company, chooses to invest will be determined by its board in due course. His prediction—he is inviting me to look into the future, and I suppose he is doing the same—is that, as technology advances, hydrogen starts to fall in cost. That is fairly sensible, although I do not ask the noble Lord to hold me to it, because we are looking into the future and we do not know what technologies there will be then.

Amendment 97 proposes that GBE reviews the impact of its activities on sustainable development in the UK. This Government—this has been made very clear and repeatedly so—firmly believe in a healthy natural environment and that is critical to a strong economy and to sustainable growth and development. Our commitment to the environment is unwavering and will be in the future, including through meeting the Environment Act 2021 targets and halting biodiversity decline by 2030. That is a pretty demanding target, but that is what we have set out for five years’ time. I assure the noble Earl that the projects in which GBE is involved will be subject to the usual and rigorous planning and environmental regulations, where the impacts on the environment and habitats are considered. The Bill focuses on establishing the company, and adding more detail at this point may restrict its activities or add layers to its reporting and governance.

Amendment 117, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, seeks to legislate the scrutiny of GBE by relevant Select Committees. My noble friend and I have touched on that to some extent. This amendment goes beyond the precedent and practice of the involvement of Select Committees in public appointments. The chief executive of Great British Energy, once appointed, will also be its chief accounting officer and will be accountable to Parliament for their stewardship of GBE and its funds. As is common practice for public bodies, the management and leadership of GBE will be available to the relevant Select Committees as needed. There is no real need to legislate on this arrangement at this point.

I remind noble Lords that the chief accounting officer would, in all likelihood, be called before the Public Accounts Committee. Over the past few years, the PAC was chaired by Margaret Hodge, as was, who is now the noble Baroness, Lady Hodge; she was followed by the honourable Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch. Those who have seen those sessions know what an acute and thorough grilling that committee gives to anybody who appears in front of it. That Select Committee is always chaired by a Member of the Opposition; that is set up in the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. It is now chaired by the honourable Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury. Having served with him in the other place for more than 20 years, I assure noble Lords that he will be just as incisive as his predecessors.

The Cabinet Office guidance on pre-appointment scrutiny by House of Commons Select Committees provides criteria and processes for such roles. It sets out that decisions on the scrutiny of individual posts should be made between the Secretary of State, the chair of the relevant Select Committee and the Cabinet Office. It is not common practice for this to be set in primary legislation. As per this guidance, no public body currently appears to have its full board subject to that kind of pre-appointment scrutiny. We anticipate recruitment for the substantive board to begin over the course of this year and will ensure that it is undertaken in a manner that aligns with best practice. To reassure the noble Baroness—

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I am sorry to intervene, but I think the noble Lord has moved on to the next group of amendments in his response to me, unless I am mistaken, because the next one is on government appointments, is it not?

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

No, at present I am talking about Amendment 117.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

Oh, I am sorry.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

But we are coming to that.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thought the noble Lord had moved on; I apologise for interrupting.

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

I am glad I was able to reassure the noble Earl. I hope that I have provided the assurances and explanations sought by noble Lords in tabling these amendments, and I sincerely hope that they will not press them.

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[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question. I cannot add anything to what I said before. GBE will look at a range of technology and sources. The whole of energy policy is predicated on security of supply and range of supply, because at various times in British history, although those two things have not been absent at the same time—or perhaps they have, briefly—there have been times when one or the other has been absent. If it is possible for hydrogen to play a part in that security of supply and range of supply—it certainly would on the latter—I do not see why that should not be part of the nation’s energy supply in the future.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the discussion on this group of amendments, and I thank the Minister for responding to me; I apologise for interrupting him. I appreciate everything he said, and I appreciate that there will be reports on GB Energy and that there are lots of opportunities for parliamentary scrutiny. It is appropriate that we ask these questions. The amendments in this group and others look to go a bit further to ensure that certain things will be reported on.

In response to the discussion on the previous group, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, asked me whether we were looking for a separate report. In my mind, this is about making sure that GB Energy produces a really good-quality annual report that covers a broad range of areas and is open and transparent about its activities.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Perhaps I may intervene. In the discussion on the first group of amendments, I promised to write a letter to noble Lords focused on financial information. It might reassure noble Lords if I pick up that challenge and say that we should perhaps also try to encompass the annual report arrangements. If that would be a sensible way forward, the letter will set this out very clearly in writing so that noble Lords can see it after Committee but before Report.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

That would be greatly appreciated and would really reassure us. That was the point that these amendments were trying to get to, so I thank the Minister.

Amendment 95 withdrawn.

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[Earl Russell (LD)]

I shall speak to my Amendment 101, and I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, for adding his name in support of it. It would simply prevent the board of GB Energy from being appointed until each prospective appointment had been scrutinised by the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee. I believe in pre-appointment scrutiny, and I put this forward as a way of helping to ensure that that happens.

I shall not speak for long on this amendment, because I suspect that it will not win favour with the Government and that the Minister will argue that there are well-established processes and procedures for making such appointments. It might be useful if he could say a brief word about what those processes will be.

Amendment 99 is very similar to mine on pre-appointment scrutiny, so I lend my support to it. However, I would probably leave out the politics; I am much more interested in the skills and abilities people have to perform the functions that they undertake. Their personal politics should not really come into it.

Amendment 98, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, has three elements. The first reflects my amendment in this group. The second calls for the headquarters to be placed full time in Aberdeen. The third calls for the chair of GB Energy to undergo an annual review by external auditors, and for that review to be sent to the Secretary of State.

I cannot disagree with the first part, because we are kind of on the same ground, so I welcome it. Labour made commitments on the second part, but I am not certain that the Bill is the place to go into what a full-time headquarters is and how it should be defined, so I will park that. On an annual review by external auditors, my question is again about level playing fields. Would other people in other similar organisations find that that was part of their normal working relationship with their employment contracts? I suspect that they would not. If the answer is no, there is no precedent for putting it in the Bill, so I would not think it acceptable.

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[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I shall not prolong the conversation tonight but the noble Lord is, once again, absolutely right about national defence, radar and being able to see an incoming attack with missiles or whatever. The problem was that the Ministry of Defence did not man that area enough. Decisions were extremely slow. There was a rumour—of course, I have no proof of this —that it used to use its slowness and its objections to insist that developers helped it upgrade its military equipment. I do not know whether it was true—I am sure that it was not, of course—but that was the perception. The main problem was the slowness of response.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to my Amendment 118A, which covers wider considerations. Let me be clear: it is also a probing amendment, as are all the amendments in this interesting and diverse group. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson of Earl’s Court, for adding his support to my amendment, which is about ensuring that communities benefit directly from the renewable energy projects that Great British Energy undertakes. I put it forward to see whether that is possible and to ask, from the Government’s point of view, what barriers to that might exist.

My amendment would ensure that 5% of gross revenue from all Great British Energy

“renewable energy projects generating over one megawatt”,

both onshore and offshore, would

“be paid into community benefit funds”.

The idea for it came from the honourable Angus MacDonald MP’s experience with Scottish Government Good Practice Principles for Community Benefits from Onshore Renewable Energy Developments. This guidance promotes community benefits of a value equivalent to £5,000 per installed megawatt per annum, index-linked for the operational lifetime of projects.

My amendment requires that:

“Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must prepare and lay before Parliament a report setting out proposals for ensuring that local communities benefit from renewable energy projects undertaken by Great British Energy. The report … must set out, but is not limited to, proposals for 5% of the gross revenue from all such renewable energy projects generating over one megawatt to be paid into community benefit funds”.


I will not go into the rest of the details; the amendment is before noble Lords. It simply puts into the Bill that local communities should directly benefit from renewable energy undertaken, and that there is a mechanism available for doing that. On the 5% figure, I am happy to have a conversation with the Minister if it is an issue. I note that Denmark’s Law on the Promotion of Renewable Energy 2008 had a 20% figure, in relation to which 5% is a lot lower.

To talk more about the spirit of the amendment, this is really about helping disadvantaged communities, particularly those that are hosting our renewable energy. A lot of them are in the highlands and in Scotland. They disproportionately suffer from poor infrastructure and poor public services, and a lot of them are living in fuel poverty. They are putting up with having their landscapes covered in turbines, dams, electricity transmission lines, substations and all the rest of it. I support community energy, as everybody knows—I have spoken to it in two other amendments and will not go into it here—but this is about more than that. This is not a nice-to-have; in my opinion, this is an essential part of the energy transition. It is about ensuring the continued long-term support for this journey that we are undertaking as a society.

Recent opinion polls on these matters are really strong. Where local communities benefit from the energy infrastructure, particularly the infrastructure that they host, their support for this transition is much stronger and more resilient. If this support falls away, that could be the end of the whole transition and of all this, so this is not just about being fair and supporting the communities that need it most and that host this stuff. It is also about making sure that these things go on beyond one Government and one term, that they are here, that we manage to take society with us on this journey, and that those who are hosting things that other bits of society need benefit from them.

Turning to the other amendments in this group, I signal my support for Amendment 118 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield. I note that the Wildlife and Countryside Link put out a detailed briefing on that and why it needs to be there. I also support Amendments 114 and 115 in the name of my noble friend Lord Teverson. I will not go into too much detail on that. As he said, there is an Oral Question on this tomorrow. It is unfortunate that we have had more recent incidents, not just in the Baltic but off the coast of Taiwan. Obviously, the UK has a number of electricity interconnectors and gas pipelines —we had a conversation about gas in the House this week—and they will only ever increase. New contracts have been signed. We have about 7.7 gigawatts at the moment, and that will rise to 18 gigawatts by 2032, so this is a crucial part of our energy security and our journey to net zero.

I would ask the Minister one thing. We can have conversations about the other aspects later on, but I am worried about the Government going away, stepping up their appreciation of this risk and maybe recalculating some of their calculations around the security of supply as we transition to net zero in 2030 and beyond. Is there is a greater need to look at some of those things again? We will talk about the rest tomorrow.

If the Committee will excuse me, the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson of Earl’s Court, has left me a note. Does the Committee mind if I read that in support of my amendment?

These are his words: “My Lords, I would like to speak in support of Amendment 118A. I should first declare an interest as a director of two family-owned hydroelectric companies in Wester Ross. Having worked in the Treasury during the 1980s boom in North Sea revenues, I am all too conscious that Britain has a poor record in reinvesting the benefits of energy windfalls and an even worse record in passing on those benefits to communities directly affected by energy production. I think Shetland receives some money, but other places do not”.

“It is in the nature of renewable energy production that it tends to take place in remote areas. I am thinking in particular of the Highlands of Scotland, but the same applies to Cornwall, Devon, Wales and Cumbria. People living in these communities often have to live with negative aspects of renewable energy: towering windmills or hydroelectric schemes which change the natural environment and can particularly scar a hillside. Because of the remoteness, oil and gas and electricity connections cost more”.

“Successive Governments in Westminster and Edinburgh have supported the principle of requiring energy developers to support their local communities, and there have been some good examples of community investment. But practice is variable, and often contributions are set in cash terms and bear no relation to the subsequent success of renewable energy schemes. Great British Energy has a huge opportunity to lead by example in exercising best practice. By setting up community benefit as a fixed percentage of gross revenue, this amendment seeks to ensure communities benefit more fairly. A 5% contribution is relatively modest, as I understand it”—and he then goes on to make the Denmark point.

“Of course I hope that the noble Lord the Minister will agree to the amendment, but I have a feeling that he will argue that this amendment will cut across the operational independence of Great British Energy and that this Bill is the wrong vehicle for addressing community benefits. If that is the case, I would like to ask the Minister if he can go beyond fine words of general support for community benefits. Will he commit to setting out a clearer definition of what represents a reasonable and fair rate of community benefit for a given level of revenue for renewable energy projects?”.

[Lord Cryer (Lab)]

Before the Minister responds, I should have pointed this out before, but I was not aware: reading out speeches from another Member is not acceptable, according to the Companion. That is partly my fault. I apologise: I should have said something.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I apologise; I thought that it was acceptable. The noble Lord should have intervened earlier if it was not. I would not have done it if I had known that it was not acceptable, so I apologise to the Committee.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

We certainly got the noble Lord’s point.

This has been an interesting debate with which to finish today’s proceedings. I start with Amendments 106, 107 and 115. The debate between the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Hamilton, on the benefits of oil rigs and other structures for fish populations allows me to say that other energy infrastructure can also have a positive impact on nature. We know, for instance, that wind farms can coexist with farmland easily. We have examples of solar meadows, which is a practice of growing wildflower meadows on solar farms. I have heard talk of green corridors, where beautiful new pylons are built to extend the grid. I am not being facetious here, as we need to look at ways in which energy can contribute to nature recovery. It is an important point to make.

I agree on the importance of our coastal communities and commercial fishing, as reflected in Amendments 106 and 107. Amendment 115 would require GBE to consult annually with the commercial shipping sector and fishing industry. I would expect GBE to provide regular updates on its work on such issues through its annual reports and accounts. We know that the projects that Great British Energy is likely to be involved in will all be subject to relevant regulations, including environmental impact assessments. There will be statutory stakeholder engagement to understand the potential impact of development. In line with other energy developers, GBE will consider the impact and risk of its activity on the commercial shipping sector and fishing industry, as it will other affected stakeholders. I will draw these remarks to the attention of the chair of GBE, so he can understand the importance of the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Offord, has raised.

In relation to coastal communities, there will be many opportunities in the energy sector in the future. We talked about the challenge of the North Sea transition. We obviously hope that, as jobs reduce in the oil and gas sector, the people involved can take up other jobs, some of which I hope will be in the wider energy sector. But overall, GBE has an important contribution to make in this area.

On Amendment 114, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised an important point on the Ministry of Defence and security agencies. Clearly, to ensure resilience, GBE will have to consider the impact and risk of its activity on offshore installation, including its pipeline and cable connections, within the context of relevant security regulations and hostile state action. It is a very important and serious matter. All nationally significant infrastructure projects, which include projects in the energy sector over 50 megawatts, undergo rigorous scrutiny to monitor and mitigate security risks. In the end, these decisions fall to Ministers to make in relation to development consent orders.

There was an interesting debate on air defence issues between the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Hamilton. I have to say that my department is working very closely with the Ministry of Defence on these issues. We are talking closely and working to ensure that our own offshore wind ambitions can coexist alongside air defence. MoD programme NJORD will deliver an enduring radar mitigation solution, which will prevent turbines from interfering with MoD radar systems. In the context of our more general working relationship with the Ministry of Defence, it will be a responsibility of GBE to consider and consult relevant stakeholders. My department will of course ensure that that happens appropriately.

Amendment 118, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, would place a nature recovery duty on Great British Energy. Let me say at once that we are absolutely committed to restoring and protecting nature and meeting our Environment Act targets. We want GBE to focus on its core mission to drive clean energy deployment, but I assure the noble Baroness that the projects that GBE invests in and encourages will be subject to all environmental and climate regulations, in the same way that every other company is.

I draw her attention to our recently published Clean Power 2030 Action Plan, which dedicates an entire section to

“Integrating clean power and the natural environment”.


I was going to quote from it, but I do not think I need to do now. We are launching an engagement exercise in 2025 to invite communities, civil society and wider stakeholders to submit their ideas on how we can best encourage nature-positive best practice into energy infrastructure and development. Feedback from this exercise will allow the Government to better understand how we can integrate nature restoration through the clean power 2030 mission. We very much agree with the substance of what the noble Baroness said.

Great British Energy Bill

Earl Russell Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Grand Committee

There are two missing great chunks of this issue. There is the recognition that the environmental impact is enormous, and that it requires intimate co-operation —an issue we have come back to again and again of co-operation with new or existing nuclear sites, maybe with small reactors on them instead of the big ones. There will have to be co-operation there, because most of the nuclear sites are on the sea and most of the switching stations obviously have to be on the sea as well, presumably in similar places. I do not know; this is all left completely undecided and undiscussed. It is certainly not mentioned in the Bill at all and I would like some comments from the Minister on that.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I am sorry, but I am just a little confused which amendment the noble Lord is speaking to. This is obviously not Second Reading and we are not making general speeches. Could he help me with which amendment he is speaking to?

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

I had actually finished but I spoke repeatedly to the environment amendment. I mentioned it six or seven times. I am not sure what the noble Earl’s motive is. I thought that ought to be clear. Is it not clear?

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Moved by

[Earl Russell]

122: Clause 8, page 4, line 15, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
“(2) This section and section 5 come into force on the day on which this Act is passed.(2A) Sections 1 to 4, 6 and 7 come into force on the day the statement required by section 5(1) is laid before Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment means the Bill cannot come into force unless the statement of strategic priorities has been laid before Parliament.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I stand to open the very last group of amendments as part of the final day in Committee on the Bill. This group is on commencement and, in moving Amendment 122, I will also speak to Amendments 123 and 124. I will be very brief on my amendments in this group, as I feel that I have already spoken to them in the group on strategic priorities during day 2 in Committee, a debate that was so nobly led by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, who I note is in his place. We had a very good and useful conversation on the strategic priorities as part of that group.

Amendment 122 would require that the strategic priorities are laid before Parliament. I have also tabled Amendment 123, which would require that they be laid before and approved by Parliament, and Amendment 124, which is, as I said, more of a compromise on these issues. It says that the Act

“cannot come into force unless a document setting out the thematic headings of the statement of strategic priorities has been laid before Parliament”.

That last amendment is where I really want to be on these issues.

My sense is that there is a general concern across the House, and across parties, on the need for some further clarity on the strategic priorities, but I welcome the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, at Second Reading. He made a welcome statement that some work should be done to try to find a solution on this. I also recognise that the Minister is in a difficult position here and that there is a need to get on with the Bill. I recognise that these things are being negotiated with the devolved authorities.

My last amendment is really an attempt to try to find a solution to these issues, and my hope is very much that a solution can be found. I hope that the Minister can say something on that solution today and maybe, after further consideration prior to Report, give at least the heads of terms of the kind of things that will be in the strategic priorities. On that, I think we can progress. My worry is that it otherwise feels, from our point of view, a bit like we are signing a blank cheque on these matters. That being said, those are my amendments.

I turn to the three other amendments in this group. Amendment 125, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Offord of Garvel, is on the publication of a financial framework document and calls for that document to be published before the Act is passed. From my personal point of view, I would like to see some progress on the financial document and what it might contain. I am not certain that I would refuse to pass the Act if it were not published prior to then.

Amendment 126 is in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. This amendment says that the Act cannot come into force until its impact

“on the number of jobs in Aberdeen”

has been published. We do not feel that we would support that amendment. The development of offshore renewable energy will help to create jobs, and GB Energy will be headquartered in Aberdeen. The exact manner of how that happens is to be seen, but green energy and green jobs are good for our future and the Bill is good for our energy security.

We have had a few conversations about the cost of this Bill and GB Energy. I kindly remind the Conservatives that they spent over £40 billion subsidising energy bills as a result of the war in Ukraine. While that money was useful to those who were suffering in fuel poverty, in the longer term it did absolutely nothing to generate energy security for our country and our future. The biggest cost is doing nothing. To continue to do nothing is not an option that remains open to us, either in terms of preserving our future or of looking after bill payers. In the main, therefore, we welcome the Bill.

I turn, finally, to Amendment 127 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, which calls on the Secretary of State to publish a report on the cost and viability of the Government’s net-zero strategy. That is not necessary before the Bill is passed, but I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Frost, who is not in his place. It is important that the Government are clear on figures, and those figures should be updated. However, when we have these conversations on cost, they are, unfortunately, very one-sided. The cost is always on one side of the equals sign and not on the other. There is a huge cost in doing nothing. We have seen LA go up in flames, and there are huge predicted costs to the global economy and our future.

The Government, to my mind, must do more in continuing to look at reforming the electricity market mechanism. The Government’s projected direction of travel is for us to electrify, and it is important that we continue to look at the cost of electricity and that the Government continue to work on providing social tariffs and making sure that those in need can afford to heat their homes. With that, I beg to move.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Yes, but the fact that a number have gone already because the industry is declining is not a compelling reason for destroying even more, in my view—but I hear what the Minister says.

Of course, this contrasts tremendously with the inaugural address from President Trump, saying, “Drill, baby, drill”. He is quite keen on expanding the oil industry in the United States, which is interesting because he slightly gives the impression that the United States has been rather laggardly in producing oil. I have some quite interesting statistics from the Library that indicate that, throughout the Biden years, despite all the green initiatives that were produced, the United States was actually the biggest producer of oil in the world. In 2020, it produced 11.3 million barrels a day, and in 2023 it produced 12.9 million barrels a day. Of that, it was using about 8 or 9 million barrels for its own consumption and exporting the rest. The idea being put out by the Trump regime that drilling for oil will somehow be a new venture is quite interesting; it has been going on, fit to bust, under the Biden Administration—you slightly wonder how that ties in with all the green credentials that he was boasting about, when they were producing these vast quantities of oil. They were way ahead of the Russians, who were the second-biggest producer of oil, at about 10 million barrels a day.

We are now in an interesting situation, as there seems to be a recognition by the Trump regime that we will go on needing hydrocarbons and oil way into the future. At the end of the day, the idea that we can somehow phase all this out in this country slightly defies credibility because, as we have discussed already, the reserves of oil are higher than they have ever been, and we will go on needing it for quite some time. It is rather extraordinary that we do not produce our own oil in the North Sea for our requirements. As it is, we will have to import it from other places, creating CO₂ emissions and so forth on the way.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I was listening to what the noble Lord was saying, and the truth is that North Sea oil is declining by 7% a year—which will not change—and that we have the third-best wind resources in the world. North Sea oil will never meet our energy needs and, if we do not find alternative forms of energy, we will be dependent on the international markets, which will mean huge variability, no security and huge cost to our bill payers. Surely the best thing to do is use the third-best renewable resources in the world that we have to back that up with a system that works.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I find that an interesting comment because, at the end of the day, wind energy is totally dependent on the feed-in tariffs that end up on everybody’s electricity bills. That is one reason why we are paying such enormous sums of money for electricity at the moment. The idea that wind is somehow a cheap option does not seem to be quite working out.

The broad point is that anybody who looks at the energy demands of this country knows that we will go on needing oil for quite some time to come. It seems extraordinary that we then depend on imports of oil from around the world, with all the CO₂ emissions that go with that, rather than producing our own. I can see no logic in that at all. The production of oil in the North Sea may be declining, but that does not mean that we should not, therefore, give licences to produce more oil from the North Sea if we actually need it in this country. That seems inexplicable when we are importing it from elsewhere.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very interesting comment indeed.

I turn to Amendment 127, the effect of which I resist because in the end, it is inconsistent with our intention to set up GBE as quickly as possible. I understand noble Lords’ concerns about information being available now, but we are keen to see GBE up and running. The statement of strategic priorities will ultimately be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. We want GBE to play a full part in the discussions on it and the framework document will be extensive, following normal procedure.

On that basis, the Government are not willing to move in that area. However, I am looking at some of the issues around the statement of strategic priorities, particularly in relation to timing, and will perhaps give a sense of some of the pointers that will be raised in it. I will continue to have discussions with noble Lords on that between Committee and Report.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I start by reflecting the Minister’s last sentence in his response to this group of amendments. I thank him and his officials for the open nature with which they have engaged and continue to engage with us. The prospect of further discussions on these issues prior to Report is very welcome from my point of view.

As I have said, I recognise the need to set up GB Energy at speed, and I recognise that it needs to exist to feed into the strategic priorities. I particularly welcome the Minister’s last sentence. As I said, my amendments in this group were about trying to find a compromise and a way forward. I also welcome his comments from the Dispatch Box on the framework document, guaranteeing that it will be produced and will be extensive and follow the proper course of action. Again, those are welcome documents, and I am sure that Members of this Committee will note them.

It is welcome that GB Energy will be headquartered in Aberdeen. It is my opinion that GB Energy will help to create good and stable green jobs. The Minister said that 90% of oil and gas offshore jobs have high levels of transferrable skills. I think we can all agree that we need a just and fair transition for the people who work in our oil and gas industry, and we all need to keep that in mind. The Committee will also note the Minister’s comments on Amendment 127. With that, I thank all noble Lords for taking part in what has been an interesting set of debates.

Amendment 122 withdrawn.