Shaker Aamer

David Ward Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

I know that this will not satisfy the hon. Gentleman, but I can only repeat that these are intelligence matters on which I cannot comment in this House. I cannot do that. Following this debate, I will be writing to the US ambassador, Ambassador Barzun, to let him know the outcome, the passion expressed and this Government’s determination to see Shaker Aamer released.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

I understand the difficulty the Minister is in, but, as he announced, we all know that others have been released, although he cannot give any reasons. It appears that there is to be an investigation, but it seems there is a clear difference between those who have been released and Shaker Aamer. Is that the picture that emerged from the Minister’s conversations?

[Mr Ellwood]

Again, the hon. Gentleman will not be satisfied with my answer, but I cannot be drawn on the individual case or into dealing with intelligence matters. I am afraid that that is as far as I can comment on this—[Interruption.] Would the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) like me to give way?

Gaza

David Ward Excerpts

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Westminster Hall

[Chi Onwurah]

rose—

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

rose—

[Mr McCann]

May I make some progress? I will then be happy to give way again. Hamas—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr McCann]

Hamas continues to reject the Quartet principles. It has publicly condemned any peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority and it continues to reject the two-state solution. By contrast, the Palestinian unity Government have committed to the Quartet principles and they are the legitimate interlocutor in Gaza, both for the international community and for Israel. All sides must do their best to enable that Government to govern in Gaza.

[Mr Ward]

If Gaza was demilitarised, could the hon. Gentleman guarantee that the Palestinians will be treated as well there as they are in the demilitarised west bank and East Jerusalem?

[Mr McCann]

I think we could hope for even better than that. In terms of a normalisation process, we can hope for the rights of Palestinians to be restored completely and for them to live in freedom and peace alongside their neighbours, the state of Israel. I very rarely hear those words said by people who propagate the type of view that the hon. Gentleman holds—[Interruption.] Someone says, “Nonsense” from a sedentary position, but I am sick and tired of coming to debates in this House where we hear about people dying, about the blood, and about the disaster of buildings being destroyed and hospitals being destroyed. I am sick and tired of coming to debates like that. I am trying to move forward with a positive proposal for peace.

A Labour Government were responsible for proscribing Hamas’s military wing. I commend the Government for their work to ensure that it remains listed by the European Union. However, I also urge the Minister—perhaps he can address this in his contribution—to assess the increasing evidence that Hamas’s political and military wings are contrapuntally linked, and they should also be looked at in terms of their contribution to peace or war.

Britain can contribute to preventing another war in Gaza. I have set out the practical steps: first, demilitarisation and initiatives to stop Hamas’s rearmament, with additional reassurance that the British Government must also pledge that the push to secure a nuclear deal with Iran does not lessen the pressure on it to cease its destabilising policies in the region.

Secondly, Britain can show leadership at the United Nations Security Council by proposing an initiative that would impose sanctions on UN members caught attempting to transfer weapons to Hamas and other militant groups. Such a resolution would provide a clear signal that the international community is committed to preventing a return to hostilities in Gaza. However, it should also go further by providing for disarmament inspectors on the ground who would oversee the destruction of rockets, mortars and other heavy weaponry in Gaza.

Thirdly and crucially, a robust staged disarmament mechanism in return for economic development must be designed to open up Gaza and reconnect it with the world. Together, Israel, the Palestinian unity Government, the Quartet, Egypt, Jordan and the Arab League should present Hamas with a clear choice: let the disarmament inspectors into Gaza and let them do their job; and in return, the international community, Israel and the Palestinian unity Government will immediately begin the work needed to ensure Gaza’s reconstruction and future prosperity.

I remind hon. Members that that $5.4 billion investment has not been prevented by Israel or the international partners. It has been prevented because the two competing elements of the Palestinian leadership cannot agree on a way forward. Most importantly, with our place in the European Union and our seat on the Security Council, Britain can lead an international effort to stop the inevitable next step without demilitarisation, and therefore the inevitable next step and next debate in this House—perhaps led by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Easington or another hon. Member—in which we talk about another bloody war in Gaza.

I suspect people may not agree with this point, but nothing in my contribution today should divide us. If some hon. Members want to go over the history of who is right and who is wrong, count me out. If people believe that what Hamas is doing can be justified, please will they have the honesty to stand up and say so in their contributions? However, unlike the solutions—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

It is customary in these debates to ask the Minister for answers or information, but I want to ask him not to do something: not to tell us how he has urged this or condemned that. I ask him and the Government to be agents of change, because unless we do something differently, no change will be brought about. The UK can be an agent of change.

We all know that the Balfour declaration was conditional: it was clearly anticipated that conflict could arise, and a future home in Israel was conditional on the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities being protected. We all know that, and we also know that there has been a clear breach of that contract.

What has disappeared from our TV screens is the daily reporting of numerous rockets being fired from Gaza. That has disappeared, of course, because it is not happening. That is good news, and we all welcome it. We all condemn the firing of the rockets, and we are pleased that innocent Israelis can go about their lives free from fear. We wish that for everyone.

What has also disappeared from our screens, however, is the daily suppression of the Palestinians in Gaza. It has disappeared not because it is not happening, but because the world has largely moved on to other issues. That suppression is still taking place, and, as I have said many times, the absence of bombing in Gaza is not the only determinant of whether there is peace.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Having visited the west bank with the hon. Gentleman a couple of years ago, I agree wholeheartedly with the points he is making. Last week’s UNICEF report showed the systematic and widespread ill treatment of Palestinian children detained on a military basis. That is still going on, but, again, it has been absent from our news reporting.

[Mr Ward]

That is the very point. I assume other Members will refer to the living conditions in Gaza, so I will leave that to them, but we know the situation that people face. Schools, hospitals, water treatment plants and homes are not being bombed at present by the Israelis, but can we really call the conditions in Gaza peaceful?

The international community would allow no other country to treat anybody the way Israel treats the Palestinians. Such a country would be ostracised and treated as a pariah state; at the very least—as in the case of Myanmar, Russia and South Africa—we would impose sanctions. I have an online petition with more than 80,000 names calling on the Government to be an agent of change and to consider sanctions as part of bringing about a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

The truth is that, until we engage in an honest debate about why Israel is given special protected status, we will never resolve the conflict.

[Neil Carmichael]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one useful step would be to send a signal that we would recognise a Palestinian state? Does he agree that that would mean safety for Israel and improved governance in Gaza?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ward]

Of course. The long-term solution is peace for both sides. Although those who support Israel are called friends of Israel, I would argue that they are the enemies of its long-term safety and security because they defend the indefensible actions it takes every day against the Palestinians.

What is apparent to anyone visiting Gaza is the tremendous contribution that countries around the world make to support the Palestinians. However, I have to ask how much of what is contributed is the result of genuine concern for the suffering of the Gazans and how much is donated by nations with a guilty conscience because of their failure to take action against the country that destroyed the very buildings they are helping, yet again, to rebuild. Too often, it is the easy way out for those nations to say they are supporting the Palestinians by helping them to rebuild and to reconstruct, when the damage would not have occurred if those countries had had the courage to take action against Israel.

The debate is not about our contribution to the important life support machine of international aid for a stricken patient, but about our contribution, as an agent of change, to ensuring that the Palestinians and Israelis can live in peace as neighbours. Unless something changes, things will stay the same. The urging and the condemnation do not work; something new needs to happen, and I would argue that that will come through sanctions.

Given its legacy across the region, the UK can and should provide leadership. The same old responses from a UK Minister will not help—they will simply not take us anywhere, and they will not bring about change. We are no longer waiting for banal responses; we need action from the Government to show that they are on the side not only of the Palestinians but, in the long term, of those in Israel who seek to live with the Palestinians in peace, side by side and in a neighbourly way.

Rohingya Community (Burma)

David Ward Excerpts

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

Is this situation not compounded and made far worse by the fact that the Rohingya are regarded as stateless not only within Myanmar-Burma, but within Bangladesh? There is nowhere for these people to go.

[Jonathan Ashworth]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point; I know that he has spoken out many times on this issue. The focus of this debate is indeed on Burma-Myanmar, but there are questions for the Bangladeshi regime as well; perhaps the Minister could touch on Bangladesh when he responds.

I am sure that many hon. Members welcomed the United Nations General Assembly’s adoption of a non-binding resolution in December, which urged the Burmese Government to grant Rohingyas full citizenship and equal access to services. The UN also called for an office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to be opened in Burma without delay. Although I especially welcome that move by the UN, I am deeply disappointed that the Burmese Government still refuse, despite that UN resolution, even to acknowledge the Rohingya as an ethnic group and criticise the UN for using the term “Rohingya”. They have suggested that reports of Muslim persecution are a “fabrication”.

I am sure that, because of international pressures, the Burmese Government have tried to make progress in Rakhine state, but I do not accept that it is progress. The Rakhine state action plan was introduced last September, to much fanfare in that part of the world. However, looking into it, we see that it means that the Rohingya can secure citizenship only if they register themselves as Bengali, therefore implying they are illegal immigrants from Bangladesh. As the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) intimated, Bangladesh has not exactly been helpful in this situation. Even if the Rohingya conform to that Rakhine state action plan, in reality they are only receiving partial citizenship rights. It is unacceptable that Burma should not give the Rohingya full citizenship, as the UN has called for.

The Minister said in the debate in September 2012—I know that he is committed to this cause—that

“the UK has been and will continue to be one of the most active, vocal members of the international community in raising concerns about the plight of the Rohingya community.”—[Official Report, 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 20WH.]

We were reassured by those words. In this debate, I want to give the Minister the opportunity to update us on the work that he has done, and the work of the Foreign Office, in the last few years. However, I want to put some concerns on the record. The Minister will be familiar with the concerns about citizenship and sectarian violence, but I hope that he will respond to other issues as well.

Campaign groups, for example, have told me that there is a sense that British diplomats have begun to avoid using the term “Rohingya” in meetings with the Burmese Government. They feel that the Burmese Government are putting pressure on diplomats to stop using that word. I would be grateful if the Minister commented on that. I did a quick trawl of Hansard; I may be wrong—I do not want to speak out of turn—but I cannot find, for example, the new Foreign Secretary using the word. The previous Foreign Secretary was very committed to the plight of the Rohingya. As I say, I might have just missed it, but I would be grateful if the Minister commented about whether we are getting pressure from the Burmese Government to avoid using that word.

Humanitarian access has been denied, or the regime has made it more difficult, deliberately, to get humanitarian aid and relief into that part of the world. I would be grateful if the Minister commented on that. Does he agree that perhaps it is time for a UN-level initiative to help us get the humanitarian aid and relief that is so desperately needed into that part of the world?

Human rights abuses remain. I would be interested to hear the Minister update us on his view, or the Foreign Office’s view, on human rights abuses in Burma.

I understand why we want to increase trade with Burma; I am a great believer in increasing international trade. Leicester, the city I represent, trades with all parts of the world. However, many people are deeply concerned that we are trying to increase trade with Burma, for understandable economic reasons, yet we still seem to turn a blind eye to some of the human rights abuses. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comment on that.

I end with a piece of good news. Earlier this month, the Pope appointed the first Cardinal in Burma, Cardinal-elect Bo. We were hoping that he would visit Westminster in the next few weeks, but I think he has had to rearrange his visit, which we look forward to. One of the first things that Cardinal-elect Bo did on his appointment was to call for the citizenship of Rohingyas to be recognised. He argued that

“true peace and real freedom hinge on respect for Burma’s ethnic and religious diversity”.

I wholeheartedly agree. I am sure that the Minister does, too, and I look forward to his response to the points I have put on the record.

Palestine

David Ward Excerpts

Monday 1st December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

Unless something changes, things stay the same. In an attempt to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, two routes have been tried—one is violence, the other is negotiations. The violent route will not work. Israel has tried that route and the route of suppression, with attempts at ethnic cleansing, for nigh on 70 years, and that has not worked. That has been matched by violence by the Palestinians on the other side, which has usually resulted in their suffering even more. That has not worked for them, but it has not broken their will. Violence will not work.

The negotiations have proved unsuccessful: why? Negotiations usually require both sides in a dispute to concede something. What more, really, could the Palestinians concede? In Gaza they have given up the air, the sea, the land and indeed the water, as they have done in many other places. There is not much more they can give. Agreement can only really be arrived at when both sides in the dispute believe that the cost of not reaching an agreement is higher than the cost of continuing the dispute.

The Israeli Government have certainly suffered from the insecurity that they have brought on their citizens through the continuing dispute, but the cost of that insecurity has been overwhelmingly outweighed by the territorial gains that they have made and continue to make daily. Why should they engage in meaningful negotiations when they gain so much from the conflict?

[Mr Mike Hancock]

Does the hon. Gentleman genuinely believe that they think that is a price worth paying?

[Mr Ward]

I believe that they do. I believe that the gains they have made as part of the grand design have proved successful for them, and they have considered the price worth paying. That could not of course have continued without the support of many countries, including our own, but most of all the United States. Our Prime Minister recently confirmed his deep commitment to Israel and said:

“When we look across the region and at the indexes of freedom, we see that Israel is one of the few countries that tick the boxes for freedom”.—[Official Report, 26 November 2014; Vol. 588, c. 915.]

However, Martin Linton has supplied the information that in the 2014 index of economic freedom, Israel is placed 44th, behind Macedonia, Latvia, Armenia and Jordan. Are those really the countries with which we should be comparing Israel, rather than France, Sweden or Italy? Is it possible to think of another democracy that flouts UN resolutions on a daily basis and remains a fully fledged member of the international community?

What can change? I was privileged to listen to Rebecca Vilkomerson two weeks ago when she spoke to a small group here in Westminster. Rebecca is the executive director of Jewish Voice for Peace, the fastest-growing Jewish organisation in the United States. It grew rapidly during the attack on Gaza. She suggested some changes as ways to bring about something different. The first was using boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. The cost to Israel of not negotiating seriously must be greater. I have an online petition with 80,000 names on it calling for the use of BDS as a peaceful means of applying economic pressure. At the very least that should apply to settlement goods, but I argue that it should go beyond that.

Rebecca also mentioned the increasing change among the Jewish diaspora around the world. Many members of the Jewish community are growing tired of Israel and are embarrassed by it and somewhat ashamed of it. The JVP is growing rapidly and adds a powerful voice.

The final area to be mentioned is public opinion, which has been referred to before. I am accused of pandering to Muslims. That is an insult to me—but I can take that. However, it is also an insult to Muslims and to the many non-Muslims who are sick and tired of Israel’s behaviour.

Human Rights (Burma)

David Ward Excerpts

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burrowes]

I shall address a number of those points in my remarks, but yes, Britain has responsibility and involvement, and it supported the census, which in principle is a good approach. However, it has also brought into sharp relief the state of the Rohingya people, who are stateless. They are the most persecuted of peoples, not just in Burma but around the world, and their lack of full citizenship is a real litmus test for Burma.

I shall deal later with the constitutional issue, but the hon. Lady’s point about political prisoners was well made. One does not have to look just at the visit of President Obama—when President Thein Sein came to this country, it was made clear that all political prisoners would be released. The Prime Minister welcomed that, as did we, but it has not come to fruition. People are playing about with what we mean by political prisoner, but in reality that crucial commitment has not been honoured.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. Does he have anything to report on Rakhine state action plan and the proposed resettlement of a large number of Rohingya out of their own area?

[Mr Burrowes]

When I was in Burma, leaked documents were in the public domain, and the issue is causing real concern. In the words of Human Rights Watch, if the plan was followed through it would be

“a blueprint for permanent segregation and statelessness.”

The plan would involve the construction of temporary camps for those who refuse to abandon the name Rohingya, with a view to relocating them to third countries. That is abhorrent, and they would be forced or obliged to identify themselves as Bengali in order to be considered for citizenship. That plan certainly needs to be condemned and I hope the Minister will be able to do that.

Last week, the United States called for a new plan to be developed. I hope the Government can support that call. The UN Secretary-General called for the rights of the Rohingya people to be respected. This is a good opportunity for the Minister to make it abundantly clear, as he has done previously, that any plan that involves such segregation into camps and forces Rohingya to identify as Bengali is totally and utterly unacceptable.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Ward Excerpts

Tuesday 28th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hammond]

I would like to answer this question, because I know exactly what the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) was trying to say earlier on. The settlements are illegal and building them is intended to undermine the prospects of the peace process. We must not allow that to happen. These are buildings; buildings can be transferred and demolished. Where these buildings are built must not be allowed to define where the final settlement line can go. We must be very clear about that.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

I very much welcome the comments condemning the illegal settlements, but if the Government’s response to calls for sanctions against Israel is “not yet”, how many additional illegal settlements are required for the answer to be “now”?

[Mr Ellwood]

The Foreign Secretary has just made it clear that we do not want the settlement issue to hog the wicket here. We need to focus on the humanitarian efforts. Gaza will face an emergency in a number of weeks when the winter weather approaches. That is a priority. Then we need both sides to come back to the table. That is our focus at the moment, and we do not want to be distracted by the settlement issue.

Palestine and Israel

David Ward Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on securing the debate, which is so important.

As a young man, I backpacked around Israel and had a wonderful time. I stayed at various hostels—in Ein-Gedi, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Eilat. I swam in the Dead sea and went to Masada. I loved the place and its people and I wanted to return. I went back and spent time working with Mashav in the Arabic desert and living with an Israeli family. We had many discussions as we sat on our upturned vegetable boxes, drinking tea and taking a break from picking peppers and tomatoes. The farmer, the head of the family, told me over and again about his personal experiences—his military service and how proud he had been to do what he felt was his duty in representing his country in the military. From where we were sitting, we could almost touch the Jordanian mountains a few miles away. He also told me about the real existential threat involved in being surrounded by what he regarded as hostile Arab states. I have never forgotten that or sought to trivialise it in any way, or to minimise the sense of insecurity that Israelis must feel.

That sense of insecurity—felt by many Jews, I suppose, throughout the centuries—has occurred as they suffered persecution throughout eastern and western Europe, and beyond. That persecution, as we all know, included an attempt at annihilation. Quite apart from the Zionist agenda, the need for a place to be safe somewhere was so important because of the failure to find safety from persecution in many other places. All that is perfectly understandable, but what I do not understand is why the Palestinians should have had to pay such a terrible price for the creation of the state of Israel, where it was believed that security could be created, or why the Israelis believed that the brutal expulsion and continued suppression of the Palestinians would ever lead to the sense of security that they seek.

I remember a meeting not too long ago in one of the big Committee Rooms in the House of Commons at which there were lots of members of the Palestinian community. I said that the Israelis were winning; I was in despair at the lack of progress. I said that they will not negotiate and asked why they should when the immense support of the US and the inaction of the international community at large meant that they were gaining, day in and day out, and could ignore international law, continue to act with impunity, and, of course, increase their holding of Palestinian land. But a Palestinian rebuked me, saying that they were not winning because “We have not forgotten and we never will forget.” How can the Israelis believe that they can ever have security, because the Palestinians will never forget?

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

My wife, who is a delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross, met many Palestinians in south Lebanon who still have keys round their neck on a string from the house that they were ejected from in the late 1940s. They will not forget.

[Mr Ward]

Indeed—how could they?

I support the motion for many reasons, but I will state three. First, for the Palestinians to turn away from the men of violence, they need hope, and this motion represents a degree of hope for them. Much is made of the failure of Hamas to recognise Israel, and we know about that, but let us imagine the sense of despair that ordinary Palestinians must feel at the failure of the international community to recognise their right to exist. My tweet on the firing of rockets out of Gaza and the previous comments by Baroness Tonge were never, of course, condoning terrorist acts by Palestinians; they were simply our recognition of the despair and sense of hopelessness that leads to terrorism.

Secondly, Israel is in breach of the contract set out in the Balfour declaration stating that

“nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”.

In the light of the Nakba and everything since, that seems like a sick joke. The failure of the international community to recognise the state of Palestine has helped Israel to ignore this commitment.

Thirdly, on a personal note, this Sunday at Eden Camp in north Yorkshire there will be a gathering of the Palestine veterans. They will parade at 1 o’clock, but many of them will not be able to walk very far, if at all—they are all over the age of 80. They went to that land in 1945 as a peacekeeping force, but lost over 700 members of the armed forces and 200 police. I believe that we owe it to them for tonight’s motion to succeed. Many were not conscripts; many were veterans of Arnhem, Normandy and Bergen-Belsen. Many felt, and still feel, betrayed by Israel and question the sacrifice that so many of their colleagues made. If this vote on recognising the right of Palestinians is won, they will very much welcome it, but it has been long in coming.

Kashmir

David Ward Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I welcome all Members to today’s extremely important debate on the political and humanitarian situation in Kashmir.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone.

It would be completely wrong to start this debate without reference to the recent devastating floods in Kashmir. Much of the area either side of the line of control has been devastated. The press reports that are coming in on an hourly basis paint a grim picture. We hear of substantial loss of life on both sides of the line of control. The press reports I have received recently discuss the loss of life and the 1 million people who are deprived of basic services, but then refer quite hopefully to the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan offering at the weekend to help each other to deal with the disaster, which I am pleased to say temporarily diverted attention away from fighting along the border. Alas, that was not to be for long.

The latest we heard on Wednesday was that violence had again flared up on the line of control, with two dozen soldiers fighting militants even as flood rescue operations were under way elsewhere. Three militants were shot dead by Indian troops in Kashmir after a gun battle. Similarly, on the other side, we heard comments from a prominent Islamist in Pakistan who accused India of water terrorism. Can anyone believe that? He accused India of causing flooding across the border by discharging dam water downstream. In such a short space of time, we have seen the seriousness of the issue, as well as the despair that many, many people here and across the world must feel when they consider the conflict in Kashmir.

I want to give a little more detail. The latest information from the European Commission’s humanitarian office states that, in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, the flooding has caused 231 deaths—undoubtedly, there will have been more by now—injured 401 people and affected 580,000 people in 1,460 villages, with 5,400 houses partly damaged and 2,400 destroyed. In India, more than 200 people have been killed and 50,000 have been rescued with help from the Indian army. As I mentioned, more than 1 million people have been affected because the flooding has cut off basic services. In addition to the Minister’s response to today’s general debate on the long-standing conflict between India and Pakistan, will he comment on the Government response to the humanitarian crisis currently faced on both sides of the line of control?

I thank the hon. Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) for supporting my application for this debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) could not support my application because he is a member of that Committee, but I know that he supports the debate. I also thank the Jammu Kashmir Self Determination Movement (Europe) for supporting the debate, for supporting me and for galvanising support throughout the country, by helping to get many thousands of signatures on the petition that demanded a parliamentary debate.

I have spoken to a lot of groups and organisations— I will refer to some of them later in my speech—but I found the contribution from the Kashmir Development Foundation to be of real help and value, particularly in terms of the importance of the Indian, Pakistani and Kashmiri diasporas, both in this country and internationally, and the positive impact that they could have on the situation in Kashmir.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, my parliamentary neighbour, for giving way, and apologise to him and to you, Mr Hollobone, for the fact that I cannot stay for the whole debate because of other meetings. While the hon. Gentleman is giving his thanks, would he like to join me in thanking Raja Hussain for all the work he does to promote the Kashmiri cause in Bradford and around the country? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, at a time when we are allowing self-determination for people in Scotland and when people such as me want self-determination regarding our membership of the European Union, it is only right that people in Kashmir should have exactly the same opportunity for self-determination regarding their own future?

[Mr Ward]

I echo the hon. Gentleman’s words about Raja Najabat Hussain. There are also many others who have stuck at this issue for a long time. I will focus on self-determination a little later.

This debate is long overdue. Thousands of parliamentary questions have been asked about Kashmir in the House of Commons, but I believe that the last time there was a comprehensive Kashmir-dedicated debate on the political and humanitarian situation in Kashmir was, believe it or not, in 1999, 15 years ago. The conflict in Kashmir was discussed in a debate in the main Chamber a few years ago in 2011—I believe that the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) was behind that—but it was a shared debate.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

In respect of the debate in the Chamber, my hon. Friend should note that occasions such as this are part of the reason for having a Backbench Business Committee that allows Back Benchers to drive what is debated by Parliament. This debate was not allocated in Government time.

[Mr Ward]

Indeed; the Backbench Business Committee has proven to be extremely valuable because we can raise issues that may not seem to be vastly important but are none the less important to focus on for particular groups. I am reminded of the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), who secured an Adjournment debate on the Kashmiri involvement in the census. Without these debates, we would not have the opportunity to raise such issues. A three-hour debate on Kashmir is justified and, as we can see by the attendance, welcome.

The conflict in Kashmir is long-standing and complex. The former princely state is divided: approximately one third is Azad Kashmir, or AJK, and approximately two thirds is administered or controlled by India. Other parts include Gilgit-Baltistan, which is administered by Pakistan, and the Chinese-administered disputed regions of Aksai Chin and the Trans-Karakoram Tract. That much we know.

More than 24 years ago, I stood as a candidate in a parliamentary by-election in the seat I eventually managed to win. I asked my party for a briefing on Kashmir, and it was provided to me. I had already been a councillor in the area for six years. I knew of the issue, but I thought that I had better be on message, which shows how young and naive I was. The response that came back was safe and predictable. If asked on the doorstep or at a public meeting about the Kashmir issue, the safe things to talk about were the United Nations resolution, self-determination and the plebiscite, and I suspect that all candidates from all parties receive that briefing. I have probably attended more than 300 meetings on this subject—many of them largely the responsibility of Raja Najabat Hussain—in Bradford and here over the past 30 years, and the message has not changed much at all. Many Members will have attended meetings in their own areas where a succession of speakers turn up and say more or less the same thing to a round of applause. They are followed by another speaker, who is followed by another speaker, and then we go and have a meal.

[John Hemming]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does he agree that one of the difficulties with long-standing conflicts is that the temperature is raised by human rights abuses and that a focus on dealing with human rights abuse is not only good in itself, but assists in resolving the political problems in the long term?

[Mr Ward]

I regard human rights abuses as being a constant cause of conflict. As I will mention later, we have had periods of calm and progress, but then something happens that freezes that good progress. Often, that is because of the abuse and violations that have taken place.

The prevailing view on this debate—certainly in India and, from what I have read in the press, in the Indian high commission in the UK—is that the debate is not welcome and the House of Commons should not be poking its nose into someone else’s business. The House of Commons briefing paper includes a quote from the state president of the Bharatiya Janata party referring to this debate as

“a brazen interference in the internal affairs of India”

and

“that Jammu and Kashmir is a settled issue and cannot be reopened under any pretext whatever.”

It does not seem to be a settled issue to me.

I kindly received a message from Mr Balwinder Singh Dhillon, who wrote to me yesterday or the day before. He said:

“I am very concerned why our Members of Parliament are wasting their valuable time and resources to promote these key ring leaders of these terrorist organisations”.

I am not aware that I have done that. In fact, I know that I have not, but that shows something of the degree of emotion that surrounds this area.

A press release came out in the Asianlite newspaper, supported by the Indian high commission. It names the deputy high commissioner. It says that I have called this debate because—I have heard this one before—I have many Muslims in my constituency who have pressured me into doing so. I have to tell the Chamber that I am not very good at responding to pressure. It is offensive when people make such comments about me.

The Times of India quoted the Deputy Prime Minister as saying—it was originally quoted in August, but it has been resurrected—that

“Britain does not want to be a mediator between India and Pakistan over Kashmir.”

I accept that, and I do not think I have ever suggested that it does. There is a massive difference, however, between mediation and the offer of help, to which I will return. I welcome the Deputy Prime Minister making it categorically clear that he did not oppose the debate in itself and that we had a right to discuss whatever we want to discuss, although I will further justify that later.

I have no qualms about raising the issue of Kashmir in Parliament. We cannot escape the British legacy on the matter. We have a responsibility. We have not so much a right as an obligation to take an interest in Kashmir. We should not take a mild interest from a distance; we should offer help to resolve the conflict. I do not take the view that Britain is interfering. We are highlighting the importance of resolving the issue, not for one side or the other, but for all inhabitants of the region. Ultimately, given the propensity for terrorist acts to be undertaken anywhere in the world as a result of conflict in one part of the world, resolution is of interest to us as well.

Efforts to resolve the conflict have so far been unsuccessful. We have to be honest about that. India and Pakistan have always maintained that this is a matter for them alone, and that might be suggested today. We know about the Simla agreement and the Lahore declaration. We know that that is the line that has been taken, all the way from Sir Owen Dixon through to the improvements and progress made post-2003 right up to today, including the 15 boxes of mangoes that were sent recently as a gift from Pakistan to India. Perhaps we need more mangoes. We need positive moves, even if they might be regarded just as gestures.

We have had so many false starts on reaching agreement, which have faltered for various reasons, including awful, atrocious terror attacks in India, infringements across the line of control—even with the flood devastation facing people on both sides of the line of control—domestic politics in India and political instability in Pakistan. For whatever reason, just as progress is made towards some sort of normalisation, there is a freeze.

The constant cry from Kashmiris is that they have been overlooked as major stakeholders. Their exclusion from peace talks has led to frustration and growing disenchantment, particularly for those seeking independence from India and Pakistan. I welcome the contribution I received from the Kashmir Initiative Group, which made the observation that, while it is common to hear about the trust deficit between Delhi and Islamabad—we are all familiar with that—the trust deficit that has developed in Jammu and Kashmir over the years is seldom discussed. There have been periods of calm when greater progress could have been made. There have been opportunities and there was fertile ground for greater progress to be made, but the danger is that the absence of genuine political initiative in Kashmir will leave the region susceptible to a resurgence of violence at any time. Other Members might refer to that. I am not the first to comment on the withdrawal of NATO-led forces, the international security assistance force, from Afghanistan and the added challenges that that could bring to Kashmir.

Barrister Sultan Mahmood Chaudhry, the former AJK Prime Minister, met MPs here this week through the all-party parliamentary group for Kashmir. With the rise of extreme jihadists and NATO forces leaving Afghanistan, there is a real danger that what he called “unemployed jihadists” will look for new opportunities within the unresolved Kashmir conflict, whether they are invited to take part or not. Further escalation of the conflict through acts of terror could be perpetrated in the name of the unresolved issue over Jammu and Kashmir. That means that the situation is of interest not just in that area but internationally.

On the removal of article of 370 of the Indian constitution—others may comment on this—it has been eroded over time, but it does grant Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir autonomous status within the country. Removal is a controversial and decisive step, even the discussion of which could be a catalyst that sparks an uncontrollable and dangerous escalation in the conflict. It could be a magnet—I have already referred to one possible source—for disenchanted jihadists.

If further justification for Parliament’s interest in the conflict is necessary, I return to my constituents. Each time I meet members of the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front or the Jammu Kashmir National Independence Alliance, it becomes clear to me that the Kashmir conflict is not a mere matter of interest to them or just something that they read about; it is an anguish that burns within them and never leaves. They do not just in the newspapers occasionally follow events that happen a long way away; news gets fed directly to them through strong family links. On visiting the area—I know that many hon. Members have—I might be asked by shopkeepers on the high street in Mirpur whether I know their cousin on Nottingham street in Bradford. That helps us to understand the links and why the matter is so important.

Seeking a final resolution to the Kashmir question is hugely important for world peace—it is that serious—because the potential still exists for India and Pakistan to go to war. We only have to think back to December 2001 when we were on the brink of something terrifying as both armies mobilised along the international frontier and maps were drawn up of where a potential nuclear strike might occur, or November 2008 and the atrocious Mumbai attack, to realise that the longer the issue remains unresolved, the more dangerous it becomes in this already dangerous world.

Despite criticism from various quarters, this debate is actually timely. Following a long period of relative calm and with new political leaders in both India and Pakistan, we now find ourselves in a period of opportunity to discuss new and perhaps more fruitful avenues to achieve peace and security for the Kashmiri people. It may sound controversial to some, but I long ago ditched the party line that peace can be attained through a plebiscite. I just do not think that that will happen. The long-awaited plebiscite seems no longer to be a route towards a solution, but instead a contributor to the ongoing conflict. What is the point of a referendum when the outcome will not be accepted by the loser? Would we be having a Scottish referendum if we believed that whoever lost would take up arms? Was a referendum the answer in Northern Ireland? We knew that the result of a Northern Ireland referendum of whatever form would not have resulted in people saying, “Well, we lost.” It is crucial to accept the reality.

Let us not forget that the plebiscite did not propose to offer the third option of an independent state of Kashmir. However, it did offer Kashmiris a say in deciding their own future. That was its value and that vital element can still be achieved. If it is to happen, a plebiscite needs to be viewed as a means to an end and not the end in itself. Surely the end should be peace and security in Kashmir and for the people who live there. The question then is, how can those within the former princely state, who have suffered for so long, have some say in what their future should be? Sometimes to get to what can be, we have to accept what cannot be.

[Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

Although I am struggling to agree with much of what my hon. Friend says, it is not right to say that the people of Kashmir do not have a say in their future. At the most recent state elections, 61% of them participated, and there will be elections again this year. There is a democratic process, and it forms part of the world’s greatest democracy.

[Mr Ward]

I was approached by someone who said that the separatists should be fully engaged in the elections.

[Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)]

The right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) mentioned the elections. The real issue was, how many international and European Union observers—indeed, observers of any kind—were allowed in during the elections to verify the figure that he just provided.

[Mr Ward]

I raised the issue of participation in elections. The answer was that the elections are not trusted and that there is no confidence in them being fair.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is difficult to undertake a fair election when some 300,000 or 500,000 Indian troops are in the area? That surely has an impact.

[Mr Ward]

What hon. Members are saying is simple common sense. That is the reality of the situation. We cannot go on pretending that things are how we would like them to be. The reality is that India and Pakistan will not give up what they believe to be their right to certain parts of the former princely state. It is ludicrous to continue to believe that that will happen. If that is the case, we must ask what we can do to try to make life tolerable for those who have suffered for so long.

Some might regard that as equivalent to giving up on ever getting rid of slavery or apartheid in South Africa. It is selling out, particularly to those who seek independence. In answer to the question of whether Kashmiris are given the vote, however, which Kashmiris are we talking about? Would Ladakhis regard themselves as Kashmiris? Who are we talking about?

In the totality of Jammu and Kashmir, Muslims constitute about 67% of the population and Hindus 31%; the rest are Sikh or Buddhist. In Jammu itself, however, Hindus constitute 65% of the population, Muslims 31% and Sikhs 4%. In Ladakh, 46% are Buddhist, 6% Hindus and so on. Gilgit-Baltistan is Muslim, as is Azad Jammu and Kashmir, but even within AJK, identity is as much to do with baradari as with religion—believe me, I come from Bradford and I know that. The cultural and linguistic links in AJK are actually stronger with the Punjab than they are with the Kashmiris in the valley. That is the reality.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

I have listened with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s speech and his view of why we should be debating the issue. He seems to be suggesting that the Indian and Pakistani Governments cannot be trusted to reach some form of agreement on the future. Is he suggesting that this country, the United Nations or some other country should somehow force a solution? That would seem completely against self-determination for the people of the Kashmir valley.

[Mr Ward]

I am not suggesting that. As I said earlier when discussing mediation, we should certainly not be forcing a solution; I do not see that as a part for us to play. However, we have close and strong links with those countries, and I believe we have some part to play. We should acknowledge that and find out what that part is. The hon. Gentleman talked about trust; this period of distrust, this failure of trust, has not affected us, but it has resulted in hundreds and thousands of people dying. That has an impact internationally, but also on the people whom I represent.

[Gregory Barker]

Given Britain’s legacy in India, I have to say that I find the assumption—presumption, rather—that we somehow have a role to play slightly offensive. It smacks of neo-imperialism, it is arrogant and we should respect the extraordinary achievements of India since 1947. Britain would have a role to play only if and when our advice or assistance were sought. Clearly, in this case, it is not.

[Mr Ward]

Well, that is one view. We have a role to play and our task is to find what the role can be. I will come on to that later.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I am reluctant to help the hon. Gentleman out, but, on that particular point, British Kashmiris are no more likely to ignore the issue of Kashmir than Irish Americans were likely to ignore the issue of Northern Ireland. In a representative democracy, we should simply accept the absolute need for us to listen to our thousands of constituents and to represent their views.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ward]

My doubt is whether some people want a solution. We have a part to play, but I will come to that.

In 2009, an opinion poll conducted by Chatham House provided more evidence, if that were needed, that the views of people on either side of the line of control differ widely on a range of issues. Wide differences also exist among the views of people from district to district, not only among those from AJK or J and K. They certainly differ a lot in Pakistan and Indian-administered areas.

The consensus view, however, held by 75% of AJK people and 82% of J and K people, is that the dispute is important. They believe it to be a strong issue and they have little faith that politicians will sort it out. The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) might well trust the politicians to sort things out, but the people of Jammu and Kashmir do not.

When asked what the most important theme was for the people of the whole area, 66% in AJK and 87% in J and K said unemployment. Basic, ordinary things concerned people—things no different from those affecting our own country. They want to get on in life, get a job and look after themselves. On political change, fewer than 1% in either AJK or J and K wanted the status quo; they wanted change, and just over 40% in both areas wanted independence. Although the preference for independence was fairly uniform across AJK, however, it was very unevenly distributed in J and K. There is no evidence that the proposition to join India or Pakistan would come close to obtaining more than a quarter of the total vote.

That was one opinion survey, but at least it provided an attempt to answer one of the most serious criticisms levelled at India and Pakistan—namely that the views of those in both Pakistan and India-administered Kashmir were not sufficiently heard in the debate about their future. At least the survey gave them a voice.

I will finish on the subject of human rights violations; others will probably refer to them in more detail—in particular the atrocities committed by the Indian army. On hearing about the debate, various groups representing non-Muslim Kashmiris approached me. I knew, and was certainly made aware, that members of my own party were concerned that the debate would be an Indian-bashing one and that, as an MP who represents a large Kashmiri community, many originating from AJK, I would be biased. For party colleagues to hold that view is disappointing; they clearly do not know me. I met a small group of Kashmiri Pandits, who told me how many thousands of people from their community were forced to flee in fear in from the Kashmir valley. Many fled to Jammu, and I have to tell the Chamber that they still live in pretty intolerable conditions there to this day.

If decisions cannot yet be agreed about who is right or wrong, which country Kashmir should belong to or whether it should be independent of either India or Pakistan, can it still not be agreed that terrorist acts and violations of human rights should not and will never provide a path towards such an agreement? Until that peaceful path is found, can we not increase measures that normalise life, such as lax borders, demilitarisation, increased trade and removal of mines? Above all, as those measures begin to make life more tolerable for the long-suffering people on both sides of the line of control, can both the Indian and the Pakistani Governments make a commitment to refuse to allow normalisation measures to be derailed by the violent reaction to normalisation that is inevitably carried out by terrorists? The measures can and should continue.

[Gregory Barker]

It is very difficult to follow the hon. Gentleman’s logic. Surely the terrorists, most of whom penetrate across the border from Pakistan, would like nothing more than the withdrawal of Indian troops, who are there to protect the border and the integrity of the frontier. If the troops withdraw, de facto the terrorists will have won.

[Mr Ward]

There is a strong argument that the terrorists need the armies as much as the armies need the terrorists. If the right hon. Gentleman does not understand the powers of the armies in both countries, I do not see how he can understand the difficulties faced by the two Governments, who have made steadfast efforts in the past to reach a peaceful solution.

Above all, as various measures begin to make life more tolerable for those on both sides of the line of control, both Governments must ensure, as they have in the past, that there is a commitment to continuing with the process of normalisation. As the right hon. Gentleman said, while the issue remains unresolved, both India and Pakistan consider a significant military presence is necessary in the region, which brings hardships and human rights abuses for the people there.

One of the most disappointing and perhaps tragic aspects of this whole saga is that huge numbers of people in both India and Pakistan live below the poverty line. How much more money could be spent on health, education and development if it was not being spent on guns, mines and keeping standing armies of hundreds of thousands of troops? We are aid providers, so are hon. Members really saying that we do not have a direct say or interest in that, or any influence over it? Armies need enemies to justify their existence. How many hungry children die because the Kashmir dispute remains unresolved after all this time?

Before I draw to a close, I ask the Minister what our Government are doing. Have they washed their hands of the British legacy? Is there no diplomatic pressure they believe they can bring to bear on the respective Governments to find a lasting solution to the conflict, or at least move towards a process of normalisation for those who have suffered? Does he not see that the continuation of the conflict presents a real danger to international peace, through the involvement of extreme elements in Kashmir?

This is not about being patronising, condescending or judgmental. It is not about diplomatic finger-wagging. We want to be a friend to Pakistan and to India, but support for Pakistan as an ally in the war on terror or for India because of its power and value to us as a trading nation—or for whatever reason hon. Members believe is right—should not make us afraid of being a critical friend. We look on the Kashmir conflict not in a patronising way, but with great sadness, because we believe that it holds back both Pakistan and India from what together they could be.

Many people have helped me on this issue. I finish by thanking Victoria Schofield, in particular, for her support and advice, and by quoting her book, “Kashmir in Conflict”, in which she states:

“That the world can be held in thrall because India and Pakistan, after over half a century, are still arguing about their respective positions on Kashmir, invokes international concern at the highest level.”

That, if nothing else, makes it important that we discuss the matter here in the UK Parliament.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ward]

I will not require all the time, but I thank the Minister. I thank everyone who has taken part in and attended the debate. I think that it has been of value and, personally, I found it interesting to hear the different views. I believe that the debate has been conducted, with a few exceptions, in the right spirit.

I regret that some of the speeches that I have heard today were written before coming to the Chamber, as most would have been, but then not adjusted after I had spoken. Some people anticipated what I would say. I serve a diverse community, including Hindus, Sikhs and, as is known, a large Kashmiri community. I feel that some of the speeches were prepared on the assumption that I would be pro-Pakistan and anti-India. That was unfair, because that is certainly not what I attempted to do, or did, in my speech. I tried to express the concerns of people on either side about malpractices and atrocities on both sides of the line of control.

Some comments were made about the debate itself being inflammatory, but, strangely, it seemed to me that such comments were made by those who made the most inflammatory speeches. They were more partisan than the rest of us. That was a great shame.

Many people have talked about whether it is right for us to discuss the subject. I am bound to say this, but I thought that the balance of the arguments justifying our right and obligation to raise and debate the issue was in favour of doing so. I would say that, wouldn’t I? I stick to my view that we have that right, and that we have exercised it well today.

I was not happy with the criticism from the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman). It was strange criticism, because one of his arguments was that Kashmir is not our business, that we should not discus it, that Pakistan and India should come up with a solution and that we should not prescribe one. I was then criticised for speaking for so long and for not having come forward with a solution, which I found a strange argument to make. I was carefully avoiding saying what I believe that the two countries and the Kashmiri people should be deciding for themselves. Whatever my beliefs about the subject, I tried to avoid making that comment.

I was also unhappy about what the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) said. I took exception to his comment about white middle-aged men. I do not feel it necessary to apologise for not being from a large community that I do my very best to represent. I said something along the lines of not wanting to be patronising, but it was then suggested that I was being patronising in some way. I take exception to that.

What did I say? What has been echoed by many of us? First, the issue is one for us to discuss. I welcome the Minister’s comments accepting and acknowledging that, and agreeing with me on that. Secondly, although it is not for us to propose a solution, I said that until a solution can be found, please do not support or commit atrocities. That is the essence of what I was saying. The subject is complex and difficult, otherwise it would have been solved many years ago. I tried to emphasise, however, that violence on either side will never take us closer to a final resolution.

Perhaps we can provide support, as a friend of Pakistan and of India, when the inevitable violent interventions of terrorism on both sides take place. We can ensure support for both the Pakistani and Indian Governments, so that they are not blown off course or derailed when introducing normalisation initiatives, which simply make life more tolerable. The issue is a humanitarian one; it is not about land, or who it belongs to, but about how to make the situation more tolerable for those who are living and have lived in insufferable conditions for so long.

My final point has been made by many other Members. When a solution is being considered, the people of Kashmir themselves must be part of that process. That is the message. Whatever the divide, whatever our opinions or however strongly we feel them, the solution should not be arrived at without hearing the voices of the people of Kashmir. I hope that that is something on which we can find common agreement.

Question put and agreed to.

Israeli Teenagers (Abduction and Murder)

David Ward Excerpts

Tuesday 1st July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hugh Robertson]

That is a difficult question to answer briefly, as I am sure you would wish me to do, Mr Speaker. The British Government give long-term and short-term support. The long-term support relates to the work we are doing with the Palestinian Authority to build up capacity and to relieve poverty. I saw many of the schemes during my visit last week, including the training at the police academy and the schemes where we are helping Palestinians with planning issues. Our shorter-term support is about the work we are doing with our ministerial contacts, our embassy’s contacts and the consul-general’s contacts in east Jerusalem to work not only for de-escalation but, crucially, to find the perpetrators of this appalling crime.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

I very much welcome this urgent question on what I have described elsewhere as brutal and sickening murders. Does the Minister agree that if urgent questions were sought each time a Palestinian was treated brutally and murdered by the Israeli defence forces, we would, sadly, be here most weeks? Does he also agree that the violence perpetrated by both sides must be condemned equally, and that such violence is not and cannot be in the interests of the Palestinians or the Israelis if we are going to work towards a solution to this dreadful conflict?

[Hugh Robertson]

I doubt that anybody in the House, or anybody involved in the politics of the middle east, believes that a further escalation between the two sides in this conflict is in anybody’s interest—that way lie more deaths similar to the ones we have seen overnight. On whether a life is worth more or less one side of the line or the other, I say it absolutely is not; there is no hierarchy of victimhood, and people suffer equally.

Burma (Persecution of Minorities)

David Ward Excerpts

Wednesday 25th June 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

It is good to appear before you today, Mr Howarth. I thank the Minister for also appearing today. His portfolio covers many difficult issues, not least of which is the one we are discussing. I do appreciate that. I also thank other hon. Members who have been involved in raising this issue. I have spoken to some of them this morning. They are genuinely interested in the issue and concerned, and have previously initiated various debates in their own right, which gives an indication of their support for raising the issue, but they could not be here today.

Let me explain why I continue to want to raise this issue. The little secret is that seven or eight years ago, I had to google “Rohingya” to find out what the group was and what its background and history was. That arose when I was approached as a Bradford councillor, which I was then, through a housing association that had been contracted to provide accommodation and support to a group of Rohingya who were coming or wanted to come to Bradford through the Gateway programme, and we did provide a lot of support. There are certainly no votes in this, but there is now an important group of people, whom I consider to be Bradfordians and constituents, who regularly raise with me appalling stories of what is happening. The new arrivals originally came from Bangladesh. We campaigned hard on some of the issues faced by the Rohingyans in the camps in Bangladesh, but obviously in the last few years a new issue has emerged in the public’s awareness—the issue was not new in itself, but it was new in terms of public awareness. I refer to the activities that were taking place in Burma or Myanmar, and those are the ones that I want to talk about today.

The UN special rapporteur, Mr Quintana, produced a report back in April, and I will need to quote from it at some length, because this is someone who knows the issues. He has been to Burma many times—nine times, I think—and has visited some of the most difficult areas in Kachin and Rakhine. He reported back a sombre tale of his time in Myanmar.

The good news, at the beginning of Mr Quintana’s report, was about the release of many prisoners of conscience—more than 1,000—but some of his other comments make pretty worrying reading. In particular, he raised the ongoing issue in Burma of human rights. Despite the release of political prisoners and other reforms that are taking place, he had to conclude that he saw

“no improvements in the human rights situation.”

Indeed, he believed that the situation was getting worse, from what was “an already dire state.” He found that the practice of separating or segregating communities

“continues to have a severe impact on the Muslim populations in Rakhine…and in particular the Rohingya community.”

The discriminatory and really quite strict restrictions on freedom of movement for Muslim populations remain in place, as the Minister is well aware. Mr Quintana concluded that part of the report by saying that that continues to affect

“a range of other human rights including”—

sadly—“the right to life.”

So serious are some of the issues that Mr Quintana identified and experienced that he went on to conclude that the extrajudicial killings, rapes and other forms of sexual violence—

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He will be aware that since 2011 the Christian community in Burma has been persecuted dramatically, with 64 women and girls raped, 66 churches destroyed, 200 villages burnt down and more than 100,000 people displaced. Right up to 2013, there were gang rapes, as he has mentioned. Surely more pressure should be brought to bear on the Burmese Government to stop this horrendous activity.

[Mr Ward]

That is absolutely right. The fact that many of my comments, because of issues raised by my constituents, refer to the Muslim Rohingya in no way minimises the atrocities that are committed against other groups as well.

These issues are very serious. I started to mention some of them. Others include the lack of due process, fair trials and rights; forcible transfers; and the deprivation of liberty for so many people. These are not isolated incidents; they are happening on a large scale and are directed, in many cases, against the Rohingya population. So serious is the situation that the special rapporteur concluded that they amount to “systematic human rights violations”. They are so serious that they should be referred to the International Criminal Court as crimes against humanity. They are crimes against humanity as defined under the Rome statute and need to be elevated to that level in the public consciousness. We are talking about the worst of the worst.

I know that the Minister is aware of the report, and other hon. Members may want to pick out specific points, but it contains a whole series of recommendations, many of which the British Government could contribute to. I will come to specific actions that I and others believe the Government could and should take. More recently—again, the Minister will be aware of this—there has been a report back to the United Nations by the Assistant Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs, Ms Kyung-wha Kang. If anyone has not seen the video of the interview and questioning that took place, I recommend that they watch it. The report back to the UN was made only two weeks ago—I think it was 17 or 18 June; it was very recently. She points out that this is the second anniversary of the inter-communal violence in Rakhine and the third anniversary of the terrible conflict in Kachin.

The UN Assistant Secretary-General found that there were severe issues in providing access to international humanitarian aid. It is restricted, although in different ways, in the two states to which I have referred. In Kachin, there are up to 100,000—the point about the scale of this has already been made—displaced people in camps. Half are in Government camps, where some aid, of a limited nature, is possible and available. However, half are in IDP—internally displaced people—camps, which are under independent army control and where access is simply unobtainable.

The level of suffering is indicated in the comments of the UN Assistant Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs, who said that in Rakhine she witnessed

“a level of human suffering in IDP camps that I have personally never seen before”.

Men, women and children are living in appalling conditions, with severe restrictions on their freedom of movement, in camps and isolated villages. In Rakhine, there are estimated to be 140,000 displaced people, 90% of whom are Muslims, although there are some of other faiths. The problems are made worse by the fact that Rakhine is the poorest state in Myanmar. We can take it as a common state of existence that there is no electricity, no schools, no toilet facilities and no freedom of movement. Many people have been living in those conditions for years, although such accommodation—if we can call it accommodation—was supposed to be temporary.

In theory, humanitarian aid can be provided in those areas, but in practice it is much more difficult for a whole host of reasons. The first of those is travel; the Minister, who has visited the area, will know far more about that than I do. The UN Assistant Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs pointed out that a two-hour boat ride was required to reach one of the camps, let alone to transport any aid. There are also administrative barriers to obtaining authorisation. Often, the local community are at best distrustful and at worst hostile towards aid workers, whom they believe favour the Muslim community. We are talking about people who are in desperate straits. Humanitarian aid workers, who are incredible human beings who risk their own safety and put their lives at risk, are treated with hostility because they are thought to favour a particular group.

The real concern, as the Minister knows, is the continued statelessness of the Rohingya, on which there seems to be very little progress. It is telling that Ms Kang was advised not to refer to the Rohingya as Rohingya, because to do so would be controversial and might trigger tension, which might provoke a violent reaction. Considering the awful past in Burma, it appears that relationships with other states, such as the United States and the United Kingdom, have improved—although they could not really have been much worse. Notwithstanding Ms Kang’s comments about the negative aspects of the situation, to which I have referred to, she pointed out that huge strides had been made in political and economic reform, but little progress seems to have been made on the question of the Rohingya in Rakhine. She echoed Mr Quintana’s comments about the need for a change in culture. Pressure is being applied for constitutional change, but a fundamental reconciliation and a change in culture are the most important things. What is the point of a constitutional change if it is not supported by a change in attitude and culture in the region?

There are some points that I would like the Minister to respond to. Ms Kang refers in her statement to the Government action plan on Rakhine. Does the Minister know anything about that, and what progress is being made on it? There is also an opinion—I would like to know whether the Minister is aware of it—that the UK Government’s criticism of the Myanmar Government is muted because foreign Governments do not want to disrupt the progress being made and are therefore taking a softly, softly approach. We want reforms to continue, but that cannot happen at the cost of providing much-needed support for the Rohingya. Defending the Rohingya cannot be seen as contrary to a desire to support changes and reform in the country.

There is also a view that the reforms to date have simply been a smokescreen—that the President is carrying out limited reforms with a view to trying to get the international community to remove or reduce sanctions. As I understand it, some sanctions have been removed, so the strategy is working. It does not seem to be of any benefit to the Rohingya, however. I am grateful to the Burma Campaign UK, which has supplied me and other Members with briefing material over the last several months. The campaign has raised some specific concerns, to which I would like the Minister to respond. One is the census in Burma, to which the UK contributed £10 million. As the Minister knows, however, the promise that the Rohingya would be allowed to register as Rohingya was not kept. That is a broken promise. There is also a view that the Minister was somewhat snubbed and was banned from making a planned speech at Rangoon university; I do not know whether that is true. In addition, within hours of his visiting Kachin state and calling for peace, the Burmese army attacked two civilian villages.

There is also the issue of the limitations being placed on the numbers of children that Muslims can have and the restrictions on non-Buddhist men that prevent them from marrying Buddhist women. I find the whole question of the Buddhist faith difficult, and it is not something I have a great deal of knowledge about. Some time ago, however, I saw a BBC report—I think it was—of a Buddhist monk who was justifying the slaughter of children. When he was asked how he could possibly justify that and be a Buddhist, his response was: “It’s a bit like weeding a garden: if you want to get rid of the weeds, you have to get right down to the roots.” The killing of children was therefore justified on the basis of destroying the roots of a plant to prevent it from growing and becoming a problem later. It was sickening and appalling, and if that is Buddhism, I have a completely wrong perception of what that religion is.

There is also the question of political prisoners. More than 1,000 political prisoners of conscience have been released, but I understand that the number of political prisoners is increasing again. The number of people being held has doubled this year. Many prisoners were released with the intention of removing sanctions, but we now have another escalation in the persecution of political prisoners. I do not know the details of the Andy Hall case, and I do not know whether the Minister has any comments. Does he know of that case? If Andy Hall is convicted, he could face many years in prison, but I am not too aware of the case.

The other issue is military training, which I and others have raised in parliamentary questions. Military training, like many of the other things to which I have referred, could have been used as a lever to try to bring about improvements, particularly for the Rohingya.

[David Simpson]

I have seen research showing that young Christian adults and teenagers have been threatened with conscription to the army if they do not give up their faith. They are told to shave their head, as the Buddhists do. If not for charities such as Barnabas and others, which provide shoes and clothing to Christians in Burma, they would be in a very bad state.

[Mr Ward]

That echoes the familiar pattern that emerges. Burma is almost like two nations. Good news stories continually come out about the progress that is being made, and on the other side there are horrendous atrocities and abysmal behaviour towards large sections of the ethnic minority communities. It is almost like two parallel worlds that exist alongside each other. I can understand why we want to encourage one side to improve and become part of the international community and—if we want to be cynical—to develop trade. We know the benefits of international trade and how it can bring about political reform, but what about the other side? What about the daily reports of behaviour that would be unacceptable in any other part of the world?

Burma Campaign UK has produced eight steps that it believes the British Government could take to improve human rights in Burma. First, the Government should put human rights—not trade or political reform, but human rights—at the top of the agenda, elevating human rights as the Government’s policy priority in Burma. Secondly, the Government should support an international investigation into human rights violations against the Rohingya. We hear about various internal investigations, but an international investigation is required into what the UN special rapporteur believes to be crimes against humanity.

Thirdly, the Government need to consider the use of aid as a lever. I believe that twice as much aid— £20 million—is spent on building Government capacity and moving towards democracy than is spent on helping civil society and relations between the different ethnic groups across Burma. Is that the right balance? As I said earlier, there seems to be a view that if we can bring about political reform and constitutional change, everything else will follow. That view is contested by those who believe that cultural change is required as well as constitutional change.

Burma Campaign UK also calls for a global summit on countering hate speech. The Minister may want to say something about that, as it has been well documented. Hate speech is becoming a severe problem, and such a summit should not be a talking shop, but should lead to a clear action plan with significant—it would have to be significant—international funding and technical expertise provided to address hate speech. Further, the campaign recommends that the UK Government should make any future training of the Burmese military conditional on the ending of Burma’s tactics in ethnic states. There is clearly a lot for which the Burmese Government are either responsible or to which they turn a blind eye.

Burma Campaign UK also recommends that the UK Government should support the establishment of an international investigation into rape and sexual violence in Burma, which has continued unabated since Thein Sein became President. No steps seem to have been taken and impunity seems to be a major problem. Human rights violations are committed on a regular basis, with impunity for the perpetrators.

The campaign calls for support for an internal, cross-departmental investigation into the decision to fund the census. Again, was that another lost opportunity to provide something that would lever the changes we seek? Finally, the campaign supports a new independent review mechanism for political prisoners in Burma. We welcome the number of prisoners who were released, but it seems that, after the international acclaim and praise for those actions, the Burmese Government simply reverted back to their old ways. The review mechanism has to be lifted out of the internal investigations and appraisals within Burma and be done by the international community.

There are quite a few things there, and I hope others want to contribute, but the main message that I bring to the debate is the frustration felt by everyone who understands the issues, particularly those from within the Rohingya community, which I now know very well. The Rohingya community has fitted into our own community, but it feels totally powerless about what is happening so far away. The Rohingya community believes that its cause is not forgotten, but is not considered a top priority compared with other important international diplomatic measures.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. Does he agree that some of the Rohingya in Burma have not even been counted in the census?

[Mr Ward]

I thank the hon. Lady for that question. The census was supported by UK funding, but the Rohingya are not only not counted, but are not allowed to describe themselves as Rohingya, so we are not aware of the scale of the problem. We can only conclude that the problem is greater than is publicly known. That, among many others, is an issue that I hope the Minister will address.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hugh Robertson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, with which I entirely agree. The longer I spend in the Foreign Office, the more I begin to realise that engagement with countries that do not accept our norms and standards is uncomfortable; there is no doubt about that, but I am absolutely convinced that engagement is the correct approach. If we fail to engage and simply stand off from a problem and criticise, we will lose both moral authority and the authority to try to influence. Sometimes, even when engagement does occur, influence does not come from making a lot of noise. Change is often effected by years of quiet diplomacy and initiatives such as those mentioned by the hon. Gentleman and those undertaken by the Speaker and others, which play an important role.

[Mr Ward]

Most people would understand the dilemma to which the Minister refers. The frustration, particularly for the Rohingya, is that when they say that things are going badly for them in Rakhine, they are constantly told that things are going well elsewhere. They say, “Violations and murders are taking place,” but the response is, “Yes, but things are going well over here. Be patient.” It is difficult to be patient when crimes are being committed against a number of ethnic minority groups. The continual message is, “Put up with it, because we are making progress in so many other areas.”

[Hugh Robertson]

I entirely understand that frustration. The hope is that a policy of constructive engagement will help to move the whole piece along. I acknowledge that the situation may move much more slowly than we all would want, and that those who are affected will be annoyed and frustrated by the pace of change and will wonder why more is not happening internationally. I understand all the frustrations that the hon. Gentleman properly articulates, but I am not saying that progress is fast enough; it is far too slow and the situation has not moved at the desired pace.

I hope that those who arrive at the hon. Gentleman’s surgery will be given some comfort to know that the matter is being raised in a balanced and sensible way in today’s debate. I hope that he will be able to point to the Government’s actions and the assurances that I have been able to give him, and to the fact that we recognise that a huge amount of work still needs to be done. In a sense, this covers the last point in his excellent speech, which was about the sense of disempowerment and frustration at the pace of progress. I understand and acknowledge that the affected must feel that way, but I hope that I have provided some assurance that we are taking the matter seriously. If we consider the list of responses, including those from the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister of State, and the summoning of the Burmese ambassador, that is quite a catalogue of actions, and I do not think many other countries receive such a high level of diplomatic attention.

The hon. Member for Strangford raised, as he always does, the plight of Christians, with his customary attention to detail. He also mentioned Kachin province. During his recent visit, the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon, made a particular point of asking to see members of the Kachin Baptist Convention, which is the largest religious organisation in Kachin state, and he discussed a large range of issues with them. He raised our concerns about the Christian community and other human rights issues with senior members of the Burmese Government. He made a particular point of calling for religious tolerance and dialogue during his speech at the British Council. Earlier this month, we also welcomed Archbishop Bo to London for the preventing sexual violence initiative summit.

As I have told the hon. Member for Strangford in our many conversations about my area of responsibility, the Foreign Office gets an enormous number of letters on the treatment of Christians around the world. We take the issue seriously, and it is definitely moving up the agenda. He knows from debates we have had—indeed, we had one yesterday—that I have particularly prioritised the issue. I am off to Lebanon on Sunday, and I will make a particular point of seeing members of the Christian community on Monday. This really is something that we take very seriously.

We have talked a bit about the preventing sexual violence initiative summit. As a specific result of the summit, funding of £300,000 is earmarked for projects in Burma offering greater support and protection to survivors of sexual violence.

In her speech, the hon. Member for Bristol East highlighted many of the issues that have been raised this morning. She said there is a danger that the narrative of progress will breed complacency. I hope my response has given her some assurance that that is absolutely not the case, and that we realise the problems we face.

The hon. Lady talked briefly about the intermarriage laws. The issue is very much on the radar, and she is right to highlight it. We are concerned about the possible implications of the proposed legislation, and we are following the ongoing discussions through the embassy in Rangoon. We have already raised our concerns with the Burmese Government, and we want to make sure all draft laws are in line with international standards. We want to make it absolutely clear that respect for the rights of women and for the freedom of religion and belief must be guaranteed. To give the hon. Lady further reassurance, let me add that the EU also raised concerns at the recent EU-Burma human rights dialogue.

I hope I have covered the various points that have been raised. Let me finish by returning to where I started half an hour or so ago and thanking the hon. Member for Bradford East for raising this issue; he and other Members are absolutely right to raise it. The Government know that much remains to be done and that progress is not guaranteed; there is an enormous way to go. However, it is worth reflecting—this goes back to a remark made earlier—on a comment made by the International Development Committee in March:

“Progress will not happen by standing back, adopting a cynical attitude to change.”

It really is important to have a constructive agenda if we are to try to force the changes we all want to see. The best way to help achieve our vision of a democratic Burma that enshrines freedom and human rights for all is to engage with the parties there. I understand that that will be a frustrating process, and that progress may well not seem quick enough for representatives of minority groups. However, engagement is the key to helping Burma embed reform and to encouraging further meaningful progress towards peaceful and democratic government.