Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I begin, as others have done, by congratulating the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) on securing this important debate. I apologise that the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), who should be responding to this debate, cannot be here today.
The debate has been not only well-attended, informative and passionate, but constructive, and I am pleased that we have had it. It is our right to debate such matters in this place. India and Pakistan are long-standing and important friends of the United Kingdom, and our unique historical and cultural ties still bind us, as do the important Indian and Pakistani diasporas that have been mentioned. The situation in Kashmir attracts much public and parliamentary interest in the UK, and I welcome the contributions of all hon. Members from both sides of the House.
Before responding to the specific points made during the debate, I will briefly set out the Government’s position on India-Pakistan relations and Kashmir. Before I do that, however, I want to extend, as others have done, the Government’s deepest condolences to all those who have lost family and loved ones in the extensive flooding in Pakistan and in both Indian and Pakistani-administered Kashmir. We particularly note the offers of assistance to each other by the Governments of India and Pakistan to tackle the humanitarian crisis.
The Department for International Development is of course monitoring the situation, but the UK has not received any request for assistance. We will nevertheless continue to monitor the evolving situation in close co-operation with the European Union and the other bilateral and civil society agencies. The British Government stand ready to assist where appropriate. Our travel advice has been updated to take account of the current flooding, and we advise all British nationals in the area to take extreme care and to contact our consular staff in case of emergency.
The UK Government recognise the importance of a strong relationship between India and Pakistan not only for its own sake, but for regional stability. We encourage both sides to maintain dialogue, the pace and scope of which is for the two countries to determine. In that context, we welcome the renewed engagement between India and Pakistan in recent years, including the potential economic benefits that that would bring. We hope that both sides will continue to take further steps to help the growth of both countries’ economies.
As the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), whom I thank for the extra time that he has provided me, highlighted from his position as shadow Minister, we welcomed Prime Minister Modi’s invitation to Prime Minister Sharif for his swearing-in ceremony on 26 May and his statement of 29 August calling for
“peaceful, friendly and co-operative ties with Pakistan.”
We agree with Mr Modi that
“any meaningful bilateral dialogue necessarily requires an environment that is free from terrorism and violence”.
The long-standing position of the UK is that it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting resolution to the situation in Kashmir, one which takes into account, as the shadow Minister said, the wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is not for the UK to prescribe a solution or to mediate in finding one.
I will now address some of the specific points made in the debate. The hon. Member for Bradford East began his speech describing the water issues. Management of water resources is a global challenge that requires international co-operation. Transparent mechanisms already exist to support Indian and Pakistani water management, but it is for both sides to find ways to optimise their water resources effectively. He also asked about UK aid and development, which is a Department for International Development matter, so I will write to him with more detail. However, the long-standing position is that it is for us to feed our funds for Kashmir through Pakistan and through India, and I will provide him with a breakdown of the numbers in writing.
The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) gave a passionate speech and was the first to mention the right of this place to debate such matters. He mentioned Edmund Burke, who is a hero of mine and all Government Members, as the philosophical founder of conservatism. I think he was a Whig to begin with, but we will gloss over that.
Mr Ellwood
Indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) has written a book on Burke’s contribution and the right of individuals to have their say. The hon. Member for Brent North also spoke of the importance of the historic elections that have taken place.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) also gave a passionate speech and reminded the House of the significant diasporas here in the UK that we represent, many of whom are connected with those who have been caught up in the floods.
The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) spoke passionately about the people who actually live in Kashmir and about the challenges on the ground, which stand in sharp relief to the debates taking place elsewhere.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) spoke of the historical ties between the two countries and of the use of the Jammu and Kashmir Public Safety Act in Indian-administered Kashmir. It is also worth mentioning the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act. It is important that all judicial practices meet international standards.
Steve Baker
The Minister says that it is important that all judicial standards meet international norms, but do they?
Mr Ellwood
I have much to cover, so I will get the Minister of State to write to my hon. Friend on that.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) spoke movingly about her relationship with the situation. She brings a passionate and personal aspect and dimension to the debate, which is much better for her contribution and for her bringing her knowledge and experience to bear. She also spoke of human rights violations. India has a strong democratic framework that guarantees human rights within its constitution. However, it also faces numerous challenges relating to size and social and economic development. The British Government are working with the Indian Government to build capacity and share expertise to tackle those challenges, including the promotion and protection of human rights.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) spoke of the importance of confidence-building measures.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) took the novel approach of turning up without any notes at all, but he did an amazing job. I will give that method a try the next time that I turn up for a debate—
Mr Ellwood
Probably not as a Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West gave a powerful speech and wisely and rightly placed the conflict into context. He described the limitations of what stakeholders can and cannot do, or should or should not do, away from Kashmir itself.
The hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) spoke about the devastating floods and of the welcome collaboration between Pakistan and India in responding to the event. I agree that it is for the two nations to resolve the matter, and I am pleased that he made that point.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West—[Hon. Members: “East!”] I am not doing well here; I will bring a compass next time. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) also mentioned flooding. As I said, we have not yet received a request from either Government for assistance, but we are in close contact with the relevant partners in both countries and stand by ready to help. As has been mentioned, we, including under the last Government, have given support during previous disasters in the region. In Pakistan, we are already helping more than 250,000 people who had their livelihoods destroyed in the 2012 flooding to use more productive farming techniques, as well as helping over 70,000 people to build more flood-resilient housing.
The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound)—he is the House’s hon. Friend—gave a characteristically entertaining, passionate and wise speech and spoke of our right to debate such issues. We have that freedom, right and ability to speak, but we must speak responsibly so as not to inflame the situation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) talked about the impact of the troubles on the people of Kashmir and about the importance of trade and movement across the line of control, which we are keen to encourage.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) echoed the importance of the two sides seeking a solution to the issue of Kashmir without other countries such as the UK and the US trying to solve it from afar. He also reminded us of the significance of the date today—9/11—when we saw terrorism try to have an effect on, or make a dent in, our democratic values and democratic society. Sadly, as he knows, I lost a brother to terrorism, killed in the Bali bombing in 2002, so I stand here as someone who is passionate about our democratic values and about the fact that we must stand up to and fight terrorism in all its guises. I defend the right for us to have such debates and to promote democracy throughout the world.
Finally, the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) managed to squeeze in at the end, after his flight got in. He spoke about the importance of justice and security issues.
I am grateful to have participated in the debate. We have all learned much about what is happening, bringing the House up to date. I am pleased that on a Thursday, when there is only a one-line Whip for today and tomorrow, we are still able to fill the Chamber and to discuss such matters with the urgency that they deserve. I fully recognise the strength of feeling about the dispute among many people in Britain. I am glad that the debate has given me the opportunity to set out the Government’s position. Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Bradford East for raising the issues and hon. Members for their important and valuable contributions. I hope that I leave enough time for the hon. Gentleman to respond.