Kashmir

Andrew Griffiths Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Ward]

I raised the issue of participation in elections. The answer was that the elections are not trusted and that there is no confidence in them being fair.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is difficult to undertake a fair election when some 300,000 or 500,000 Indian troops are in the area? That surely has an impact.

[Mr Ward]

What hon. Members are saying is simple common sense. That is the reality of the situation. We cannot go on pretending that things are how we would like them to be. The reality is that India and Pakistan will not give up what they believe to be their right to certain parts of the former princely state. It is ludicrous to continue to believe that that will happen. If that is the case, we must ask what we can do to try to make life tolerable for those who have suffered for so long.

Some might regard that as equivalent to giving up on ever getting rid of slavery or apartheid in South Africa. It is selling out, particularly to those who seek independence. In answer to the question of whether Kashmiris are given the vote, however, which Kashmiris are we talking about? Would Ladakhis regard themselves as Kashmiris? Who are we talking about?

In the totality of Jammu and Kashmir, Muslims constitute about 67% of the population and Hindus 31%; the rest are Sikh or Buddhist. In Jammu itself, however, Hindus constitute 65% of the population, Muslims 31% and Sikhs 4%. In Ladakh, 46% are Buddhist, 6% Hindus and so on. Gilgit-Baltistan is Muslim, as is Azad Jammu and Kashmir, but even within AJK, identity is as much to do with baradari as with religion—believe me, I come from Bradford and I know that. The cultural and linguistic links in AJK are actually stronger with the Punjab than they are with the Kashmiris in the valley. That is the reality.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak, Mr Hollobone. I start by expressing my disappointment with the premise of the debate. The issue being discussed, as it has been framed, has cause to be divisive for the diaspora communities in this country. It could not only bear a negative impact on the UK’s thriving relationship with India, but prove to be an intrusion into the internal affairs of democratic countries. We have also talked about 9/11 and paid respect to those who lost their lives in that tragedy.

Jammu and Kashmir is currently facing its worst floods in half a century. With areas still inaccessible, many people are still stranded and in danger. Multitudes are currently homeless. I congratulate the Indian Government, who have shown their commitment to the people of Jammu and Kashmir by providing immediate assistance to the flood victims through their massive ongoing rescue and relief operation. The Indian central Government are doing all in their power to help the victims. I hope that the damage in the region will soon be contained and the victims will be safe. I also congratulate the armed forces on the role that they played in the past few days of the crisis.

Kashmir has certainly been the subject of much contention over the years, but it is clearly an issue that rests in the hands of the two democratic countries involved—India and Pakistan—and not in those of a third party. There is continued dialogue between India and Pakistan. Any issue concerning Kashmir should remain a concerted effort for those two nations to resolve.

Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India, the largest democracy in the world, one that is secular, and with elected representation from all the country’s main religions. The elections in Jammu and Kashmir, as said earlier on, are open to all. All citizens, regardless of their faith or political beliefs, have been encouraged to exercise their democratic right. As I am sure we will all agree, in a free democracy the ballot box is the best illustration of the will of the people. The elections in Jammu and Kashmir have not reflected any determination for separatism. It is for us to respect the democratic choice of the citizens of Jammu and Kashmir, not to question it.

Furthermore, at a time when all three main parties advocate a greater and closer relationship with India, this debate and involvement in its internal affairs threatens the very future of our bilateral interest. We have heard statements from the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. They have all said that this is not our responsibility. Every leader has said that they will intervene or assist if asked to do so.

[Andrew Griffiths]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Sharma]

The hon. Gentleman can shake his head, but he should read the Hansard report of the Prime Minister’s message two days ago. He said that we must deal with the democratic Governments in Pakistan and other parts of the world.

Over the past 60 years in this country, we have all worked relentlessly to preserve unity between diaspora communities, who will of course feel very strongly about these matters. It would be a shame and it saddens me that the good will of our communities might be squandered by getting involved in an issue that is under the control of two democratic countries. It is not our responsibility. As British Members of Parliament, we have to respect the rights of two autonomous and democratic countries to determine their own internal affairs of state. That is my view as a British parliamentarian of Indian background. As a representative of a diverse constituency, I cannot help but feel that this debate will inflame pre-existing tensions. Many community leaders in this country—Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims—have raised concerns about its impact on their communities.

Unfortunately, I am also concerned about the balance of the debate and its misguided aims. I therefore feel the need to mention the terrible plight of the Kashmiri Pandits. The Pandits have been the victims of continued ethnic cleansing. It is estimated that some 400,000 Kashmiri Hindus—more than 95% of the Hindu population in the Kashmir valley—fled and are now living in exile in their own country. Starting in 1989, there was an organised and systematic campaign by Islamist militants to cleanse Hindus from Kashmir, including documented massacres of innocent civilians, rapes, threats, assassinations and intimidation.

I thank Kashmiri Pandits and the Indo-European Kashmir Forum for providing a briefing on the political situation in Kashmir. Fewer than 4,000 Kashmiri Pandits remain in the valley today. The rest of their kin are internally displaced persons, still unable to return to their homelands and living in overcrowded camps with inadequate facilities and without basic necessities.

It is shameful that those minorities are unable to return safely to their homeland and worrying that a region that pre-1989 had a diverse population mix is now almost homogeneously populated by one religious group, following the systematic terrorising of ethnic minorities. That makes me even more disappointed at the bias of the debate, the aim of which is clearly to be divisive. I maintain, as I did at the beginning of my speech, that those complex internal affairs should remain in the hands of the two countries involved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I speak as the chairman of the all-party group on Kashmir. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) on securing this debate and introducing it so well. I also congratulate Raja Najabat Hussain, as other colleagues have done, for informing Members and bringing this issue to our attention. I welcome Barrister Sultan Mahmood Chaudhry, former Prime Minister of Azad Kashmir, who joins us for this important debate.

Obviously, I am at the tail end of this debate, so I do not want to repeat too much of what other hon. Members have said. Perhaps it might be more helpful if I addressed some of the points raised. A suggestion was made at the beginning that this debate should not be taking place at all—that we are wrong to debate the issue in the House. However, I tell the people who say that that the 4,500 to 5,000 Kashmiris/Pakistanis in my constituency expect us to raise these issues. The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) got quite exercised about whether we should be making this case. I gently point out to him that a look at his Hansard appearances shows that in the last few weeks he has spoken about Gaza, Israel and Ukraine, so there is a precedent for us to talk about international issues.

[Barry Gardiner]

Of course, we must debate international issues. My point was quite simply that, under the Simla agreement, the two countries will deal with the matter bilaterally. To that extent, it is not for the British Government to interfere.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I politely point out to the hon. Gentleman that there was also an agreement at the United Nations—resolution 47, in 1948—which called for a plebiscite in Kashmir and for the people of Kashmir to have a voice on this issue. It might be inconvenient for the hon. Gentleman, but those are the facts.

[Barry Gardiner]

rose—

[Andrew Griffiths]

No. I think I have heard enough from the hon. Gentleman. I have a short amount of time, so I should like to move on.

It is sad that this debate started off in such aggressive tones, because we should not forget that it is not about lines on a map or territory, but about humans and humanity. That must be central in all discussions that take place on this issue.

We have heard some fantastic speeches. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) for leading the first debate on Kashmir on the Floor of the House, in which he spoke eloquently and was very informed. I had the pleasure of visiting Pakistan and Kashmir with my friend the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), and talking to people who had been affected by this issue. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) also made a fantastic speech.

I want to talk about the impact of this situation on the people of Kashmir. We need to talk about human rights. The hon. Lady mentioned the report compiled by Amnesty International, “India: A ‘Lawless Law’”, which considered the operations of the 500,000 Indian troops stationed in this area—just think about that figure for a second. We heard earlier that, of course, the elections had taken place and that it was all fine: nobody had raised the issue of separatism in the elections. I say gently that there are 500,000 troops with guns pointed at people in this area, so it is slightly difficult to accept that an election can take place under those circumstances.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) says, “Well, this is a minority in Indian-administered Kashmir who want a plebiscite and their right to self-determination.” If that is so and he genuinely thinks that only a small minority of people in Indian-administered Kashmir are in favour of independence, then let them have the vote. What is there to worry about? What have the Indian Government got to worry about?

[Bob Blackman]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Andrew Griffiths]

I will carry on, if I may. I have only a few minutes, as my hon. Friend will understand.

There is a serious issue here in relation to human rights. Amnesty International clearly identifies instances of people being abducted and disappearing and talks of torture and rape. We have well documented evidence of mass graves and mass killings. We are talking about the fact that 100,000 have died as a result of what has gone on in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Lots of people in the Kashmiri diaspora in the UK get hugely frustrated that this is the forgotten crisis. How on earth can we forget—how can we ignore—the fact that 100,000 people, or more, have lost their lives, that there are mass graves and that rape is being used by the Indian army? These cases are well documented by recognised non-governmental organisations. It is essential that we address this matter here.

Many hon. Members have said today that we should keep our nose out and that the British Government have no reason for involvement in this matter, but of course they do. We have an obligation because it is well documented that the British drew a line on the map. We chose where the borders were. It was a British decision and we have a responsibility to do what we can to assist. It is not for us to come in like some grand colonial power, telling India and Pakistan what they should do. However, we have an obligation to try to facilitate and foster a resolution. We should use our influence to get the Indian and Pakistan Governments around a table, discussing this issue in a calm, civilised way.

There are three sets of people who must take part in these discussions: the Indian Government, the Pakistan Government and the people of Kashmir. That absolutely must happen, and until it happens it will continue to be a stain on India. I am a great fan of India—I have great respect for the country—but this is a question mark that hangs over it and it is in everybody’s interests that it finds a solution to the problem.

The hon. Member for Bradford East is pessimistic and I understand his pessimism, but there is some opportunity for us to move things forward. Although we have had some setbacks with Mr Modi, he has the power and the desire to find some solution here.

There are other things we can do. We must keep in the forefront of our minds the effect that the situation has on the people of Kashmir and try to do what we can to improve the lives of those people—including, as we have heard, allowing trade across the borders and allowing movement. It is unthinkable that, because of the line of control, people have never been able to see their grandchildren or visit the graves of their parents. That is barbaric and we must do what we can to solve that problem.

We should try to demilitarise the area. I understand the concerns about the line of control, but how can it be necessary to have 500,000 troops to defend that? We must try to take the gun out of this situation as much as possible.

We have seen the devastating impact this situation has had on the people of Kashmir. I hope that there is a change in approach from this Government and that we can be proactive in trying to encourage a solution. The British and American Governments have a role to play in facilitating that dialogue and improving the lives of the people of Kashmir. There must be an improvement in those people’s quality of life. Yes, I would love to see the people of Kashmir having the right to self-determination, but it is critical that Kashmiris’ lives improve, and improve as soon as possible.