Water Industry

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am extremely grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for your generosity in allowing me to speak in this debate. I apologise for having missed the opening speech because of parliamentary business that I could not avoid.

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood). I think that he and I will agree about one thing: the botched privatisation of the late 1980s and early ’90s has led us to a wholly undesirable situation. However, we are where we are. As someone who, in the past couple of years, has had responsibility on the Opposition Front Bench for the issue of water, I have watched the situation very closely. I was struck today by the news that this Government are now apparently taking water affordability incredibly seriously. There has been a damascene conversion—or perhaps a Dunfermline and West Fife conversion, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) has joined the Front-Bench team and is clearly getting far better results than I ever did in the role that he has the privilege of holding.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to this debate and hate to interrupt his complimentary remarks about his hon. Friend. However, following what Government Members have said about the Water Bill and what we want to do on pricing, it is fair to say that we have been working on this issue for a very long time. I think he will find that any announcements in recent days that have come from sources on the Opposition side might be a little new to the debate.

[Gavin Shuker]

What a fantastic set-up for the speech I am about to give, which is about the Government’s record in the past few years. I freely accept that the hon. Gentleman was not a member of the Government at that time, but he obviously voted on many of the issues that I want to talk about.

It is crucial that we in this House have a proper understanding of the impact that the Bill that is being sold to us will have on the consumer bills that are being levied on many of our constituents right now. Let us be clear: no one was talking about water affordability or Government action to reform the water industry to deliver for customers and not just for shareholders until the Leader of the Opposition gave his living standards speech in Brighton back in September.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

This has been a fascinating debate. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) just said about my attitude, I welcome the debate. It is a foretaste of the discussions that we will have on Second Reading of the Water Bill and in Committee and subsequent stages.

Today’s debate has been a useful opportunity for hon. Members to raise a range of issues such as affordability and the practices of water companies, and also local issues such as flooding, development and the history of water supply going back to the locally owned water provision that the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) spoke about. I will come back to some of the comments of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. It is a great shame that he finished off his speech as he did. He knows quite a bit about these issues and enjoyed dealing with them in the Select Committee. He should have written the speech himself, instead of giving a speech that was written for him. He could have done much better himself.

[Thomas Docherty]

rose—

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Gentleman did not take interventions, so I shall follow his lead and try to respond to some of the issues raised in the debate. We will have plenty of opportunity to come back to his comments.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) on leading the charge to secure the debate. He wanted to send a clear message to Ofwat and particularly to the water companies that consumers expect more now. They want a fairer deal to cope with the cost of living and to reflect the fact that the water companies have had some good years. They have had much lower borrowing costs in recent years than was predicted when those prices were set. The hon. Gentleman is looking for some flexibility during the current price review period for those issues to be taken on board.

Clearly, that is a matter for the regulator. Ofwat is being far more assertive in the message that it is sending to the water companies. It has the power to revisit the current price settlement, but in particular circumstances. Ofwat’s discussions with water companies are obviously focused on the coming price review period. It will want to see whether water companies come forward with any suggestions. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State pointed out in his letter to the water companies, they are in far better circumstances than were predicted at the beginning of the current period. As a Government, we are supporting Ofwat and providing political cover. If Ofwat is looking for a deal from water companies that more accurately reflects current circumstances, it has the political back-up to do that. I welcome the signs that Ofwat is indeed doing that.

The issues surrounding investment are crucial. The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras spoke about the simple business of a couple of pipes in the ground catching the rain water and sending it on. That was the case once upon a time. There are also the issues of what happens—how can I put this delicately?—after the water has been consumed by the consumer. What used to happen is that a pipe would be installed, as I know all too well, representing a coastal constituency, and the waste would drift out into the Atlantic ocean. That is not acceptable now and we expect a far better standard of treatment for sewage and better solutions to deal with the problems. That is why we have much better bathing water quality than we used to have.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Dan Rogerson]

I will not give way. I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says about what he considers simple problems. Yes, we want the water companies to do better on price, but we also want them to continue investing and improving. We have a responsibility to deliver better environmental quality. We have seen improvement in that but we want it to go much further, so we want the investment to continue. We will have the opportunity to consider some of these issues on Second Reading of the Bill, so perhaps we can come back to the more technical issues at that point. I know that hon. Members on both sides of the House will want to engage with me in the run-up to that and I look forward to some informal discussions, as well as the discussions on Second Reading.

I pay tribute to my ministerial predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon)—he is not currently in his place—who did a huge amount of work to get us where we are. Some Opposition Members claimed that nothing has happened over the past three years, but nothing happened over the 13 years they were in office, other than reviews. Her Majesty’s Opposition seem to stake their reputation on a number of reviews, but they did nothing on the back of them. This Government will look at that work and the evidence provided and do something, such as dealing with the inequality in the south-west and the problems people there face, which Anna Walker looked at, and the issue raised by the Cave review, which looked at the water industry as a whole. This Government are taking action.

The Government are also looking at flood insurance, because the previous Government left the clock ticking on an agreement that was about to evaporate. We have negotiated something that will now be delivered in a Bill. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury for being at the forefront of delivering that settlement. We look forward to debating that as we take the Bill through the House.

The hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) talked about leakages. He said that although water companies have improved, they could do much better and there is still a long way to go. I absolutely agree. The important point is that we still see companies investing in the infrastructure to put it right and get a better solution to the problems. That is why in all our discussions on price we must ensure that we get the balance right so that we can continue to see that investment.

We heard an interesting exchange between the hon. Member for South Swindon and the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife on household disconnections. It was not clear to me whether the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife was recommending that water companies should have that power. I hope that that was not the case, because it is certainly not something the Government want to reopen.

[Thomas Docherty]

indicated dissent.

[Dan Rogerson]

I am pleased to see that is not something the hon. Gentleman wants, because we certainly do not.

We hope to see some benefits through retail competition, but we want to do that carefully. This is a huge area of reform and a big change. That might slightly disappoint the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), who looks forward to a time when there will be an ample supply of water for everybody to enjoy in all sorts of ways and when we will not have such nasty things as metering and restrictions. There are other reasons for metering which relate to energy use and environmental concerns, because whatever we do to reform the retail side will not suddenly and hugely increase the amount of water. We will work on abstraction reform and encouraging new people into supply, but that does not necessarily mean we want to abandon our commitment to using the water we have efficiently and managing our resources effectively.

However, I accept what the right hon. Gentleman said about the challenges monopolies present, which is why we want first to move towards allowing businesses, charities and so on to have the benefit of competition. We also want them to look at how they can simplify, so that businesses with many sites across the country, for example, can have one unified bill. That would be a huge saving for them and would allow far more transparency, rather than having separate bills for every site.

A number of hon. Members mentioned the tax situation and financing. Some of those points are for the Treasury, rather than me, but they have had the chance to put them firmly on the record. Many of them have been campaigning on that outside this place, which I know they will continue. I know that Ofwat is listening to that carefully. One of the things it is keen to do with water companies is look at how it regulates to encourage transparency and overcome opaqueness, which relates to what Jonson Cox has said. The companies that take a more responsible attitude to engaging with consumers, feeding back their information and being open about what they do can be regulated in a way that reflects that, and those that refuse to engage with that progress will be the ones that Ofwat will want to investigate much more closely and have close conversations with in future. That is the sort of approach that I very much welcome. Having mentioned Ofwat a number of times, I should also pay tribute to the Consumer Council for Water for its work as the voice of the consumer, which has not been mentioned in the debate so far.

Several hon. Members raised the issue of bad debt, and I am pleased about that. We have been very clear that we want the companies that have done less well on that to look to the examples of those that have done much better in offering a better deal, and to try to build on that work.

The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) talked about development issues. Water companies have the opportunity to have an input into that process, but so does the Environment Agency in relation to flooding, and that is important. We want to see housing growth in the economy and investment in housing for people who are desperate to get on to the housing ladder or, indeed, to rent. We have to get the right balance in that process.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) posed a number of challenges and raised detailed issues that I am happy to discuss with him as we move towards the Second Reading of the Water Bill and its progress into Committee.

The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) raised issues about flooding and infrastructure investment. It is important that we encourage companies to continue to invest to overcome these problems at the same time as bearing down on price. The hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) talked about transparency and the tax framework. He also noted that some consumers feel that they have very little voice in what is being done with the money that they hand over to the water companies in their bills. Ofwat is taking a much tougher line on this, and I welcome that.

Our approach in the Water Bill is to look to update the structure of the industry to deal with some of the problems we have heard about, but not to try to step in and do what Ofwat is there to do. It is the regulator, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury said, it will regulate. We will therefore make sure that there are opportunities for it to make any proposals that it thinks will improve the Bill. If there are things we are not doing in primary legislation or it wishes to see change, it will be able to get involved in and develop those things without having to come back to this House or the other place.

The Government’s approach to this issue is a responsible one. Knee-jerk reactions that undermine the strengths of the regulatory system could be immensely damaging. A stable, independent regulatory system is vital in keeping bills affordable. Small changes to the industry’s financing costs can have a significant impact on customers’ bills. In that context, I reiterate my strong support for Ofwat’s drive to secure efficiencies and improvements through the price review and other measures that will allow us to keep customers’ bills as low as possible while ensuring that we can continue to attract significant, low-cost investment in the sector.

I thank hon. Members for bringing this issue to the attention of the House. The interest and passion expressed by Members displayed the importance that we all place on the matter, and I assure them that it continues to receive the highest level of attention from the Government. We will return to many of these important aspects of the industry as we move towards the Second Reading of the Water Bill in due course.

Flood Defences (Thurnham, Lancashire)

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I want to thank the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) for giving us the opportunity to explore the issues. I also thank him for the way in which he has approached the subject. It would be too easy for a constituency MP to come here and say, “There’s a problem. What are you doing about it, Government?” He is doing that to a certain extent, but he is also saying that the people in the communities that he represents are very open to being a part of the solution and to working in partnership with the Government and the Environment Agency to achieve that. I welcome the role that he has played in bringing the sides together and ensuring that we have a helpful way forward, and I really mean that.

As a Member of Parliament representing a coastal constituency, I know exactly what the hon. Gentleman is talking about in terms of discussions on managing the coastline for the future. I represent, among many other communities, the village of Boscastle, where, as the hon. Gentleman might remember, there was a horrendous flood in 2004, which also affected communities in Crackington Haven and Canworthy Water. The issues of flooding are foremost in my mind both as a constituency MP and as a Minister with new responsibilities, which I am trying to carry out to the best of my ability.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware—in fact, he pointed to this—of the national scale of the challenge that we face on flood management. In England, one in six properties is at risk of flooding. By area, 11% of the country benefits from flood defences, including some of our most important commercial and economic centres. This includes 1.3 million hectares of agricultural land—a point that the hon. Gentleman made. The majority of the most versatile and productive farmland in England is in flood risk areas. The soil is often productive because it is in a river catchment, and it is very fertile, but it is intrinsically vulnerable to flooding.

Flood management supports the Government’s primary objective to deliver economic growth and build a stronger economy, and it remains a top priority for the Department. The Secretary of State and my predecessor have both been very clear about that commitment. Proof of our commitment to flood management can be seen in the announcement this summer on long-term capital settlement to improve flood management infrastructure. This announcement set out a record level of capital investment of more than £2.3 billion in the six years to 2021.

However, we are not only increasing capital expenditure; we are providing an above-inflation increase of £5 million for the Environment Agency’s flood maintenance work in 2015-16. That is very important for schemes such as the hon. Gentleman’s, which have been there for some time, and we need to maintain them for the next few decades. As he has outlined, there is a potential plan, but we cannot guarantee that beyond 30 years. That is not to say that we will walk away after 30 years, but we will come back to such issues as I continue my speech. Although we have made significant commitments, I know that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the need to contain public expenditure. Central Government funding is simply not sufficient to pay for everything that would be worth while to some degree in flood management. As a result, there will continue to be stiff competition for Government funding, and we must ensure that we get the best value for money for the taxpayers’ investment.

The Environment Agency’s capital programme currently provides an average of at least £8 of benefits in damages avoided for every pound invested in construction of defences. However, the benefits realised are in fact even greater. Once the capital has been spent on construction, the routine maintenance of those defences can provide an even higher rate of return. The agency estimates an average benefit-cost ratio of 14 to 1 for its asset maintenance programme.

It is no longer the case that the Government fund only the cream of projects with the very best benefit-cost ratios, while leaving other worthwhile projects with nothing. In 2011, we introduced partnership funding to ensure that a fair portion of DEFRA funding can be made available for any worthwhile improvement scheme. That inevitably means that not all Government-funded schemes are fully funded. The new approach ensures that investment in flood management is not constrained by what the Government alone can afford, thereby increasing certainty and transparency on the level of DEFRA funding for projects, leveraging further investment towards worthwhile projects, allowing greater local ownership and choice, and encouraging more cost-effective solutions. That is just the approach that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents are keen to see.

So far, partnership funding has brought forward up to £148 million in external funding over the four years to 2015, compared with £13 million during the previous three years. That huge increase in match funding is helping those projects, which were perhaps slightly less attractive initially, into development.

Early indications suggest that up to 25% more schemes will go ahead in the coming years than if project costs were met by central Government alone. That is relevant to the hon. Gentleman’s case because a partnership approach is clearly needed to manage the flood risk in such areas. The work of the Environment Agency and other risk-management authorities in the shoreline management plan has highlighted that issue. Further hydraulic modelling and more detailed economic appraisal commissioned by the agency has clarified the fact that the most effective option is not managed realignment but maintaining the existing line of defences for as long as it is feasible to do so. We are then back to the cost of doing that beyond the 30-year period.

The defences will eventually need to be rebuilt. They can be patched for only so long, and it seems unlikely that central Government funding will be able to meet the full cost of those projects. The Environment Agency has told me that it estimates that the defences will need to be rebuilt at the end of that period. In the meantime, I understand that the agency’s recommended policy is to continue to maintain the defences, subject to the availability of funding.

I have already explained the priority the Government place on flood management and the resources they have secured to demonstrate that commitment. However, I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman what the funding situation will be in 30 years’ time. I have highlighted the competition that already exists for that funding. The geography of the area means that, although the maintenance and renewal of the defences is economic, the case for investment to improve the defences may not be so great as in some other areas, including areas elsewhere in his constituency that, as he points out, are about to receive significant investment. In such situations, the community cannot assume that the taxpayer will guarantee the full cost of maintaining and improving the defences, so there will need to be a partnership. Any local arrangements that reduce the cost of maintaining and improving the defences, or raise contributions from other sources, will help to deliver that.

The Environment Agency is undertaking local discussions on how best to manage flood risk, including the residual risks if flooding does occur. I ask only that the hon. Gentleman encourages all interests to work together, as he is clearly doing.

The hon. Gentleman has highlighted a number of solutions suggested by the community. His first question was on why areas are considered separately. Bluntly, it is because there are different risks in different areas. Some flood risks are linked to river catchments, and some are connected to topography and its interaction with the sea, so there are a number of solutions for different areas. Cost-benefit ratios have to be considered in relation to the number of families and homes at risk. All of those things are considered alongside each other, so they are not held entirely in isolation. We have to consider individual schemes. In Thurnham, of course, there is an existing defence, which highlights the fact that we are looking at a particular catchment in relative isolation.

There are still many internal drainage boards doing great work across the country. They are established and have set procedures and set ways of bringing in the revenue they need to carry out the work that they want to do. We are very supportive of projects and innovation, so we have allowed seven pilots to proceed in which the maintenance of watercourses will be considered. The internal drainage boards and farmers are keen on that, and we will look at how those pilots go.

The hon. Gentleman’s constituency has a coastal situation. There may be a solution that we can move towards, although we will have to consider how that model might work in his case. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has previously said that he is happy for there to be new internal drainage boards if needed, so long as we are sure that they fit the circumstances that the hon. Gentleman describes.

On the “floating fund” that the hon. Gentleman excellently outlines, it would be positive to see the community taking steps to prepare for what might happen in 30 years’ time. He has asked me to contact colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government to consider what might be the best mechanism to achieve that, and I am happy to do so because we want to overcome any barriers to the local community starting that fund so that the contributions can begin to be built up ready for such an eventuality.

I will continue to ensure that flood management remains a priority and that Government resources are used to the best possible effect. We will continue to bear down on costs and to press the Environment Agency and other risk management authorities to look for better ways of working within available budgets. That will, however, need to be in partnership with local communities, such as those that the hon. Gentleman so ably represents today.

DEFRA is working to remove unnecessary burdens that might discourage farmers and landowners who want to undertake their own maintenance, and there may well be other approaches, too. On 14 October we launched seven watercourse maintenance pilots, and we will consider whether they achieve the outcomes hoped for by the IDBs in those areas. One of those pilots is in the Alt Crossens area of Lancashire, which is particularly relevant to the hon. Gentleman. He may wish to look at what is happening there.

Nationally, the Environment Agency is working with the National Farmers Union and other partners to improve communications and guidance for farmers who wish to undertake their own maintenance. Although I am focusing on those challenges, I do not underplay what is being achieved now and what could be achieved in future both in rural and urban areas. The agency is currently maintaining more than 97% of flood defence assets in high-risk areas in the required condition. Those defences help to protect more than 1.6 million properties and the vast majority of the most productive and versatile agricultural land.

Capital projects in the DEFRA-funded national programme completed in the past two years have provided improved flood protection to more than 150,000 hectares of farmland, as well as improving protection for more than 100,000 households. Protecting households and farmland from the risk of flooding underpins the Government’s priorities of delivering economic growth and building a stronger economy, and I am happy to work with the hon. Gentleman to deliver that.

Food Contamination

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

It is a delight to be here, as always. I congratulate the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and all her Committee members on securing this debate and on the sterling work that they have put in throughout this year. As a critical friend of the industry and of Government, they have scrutinised the causes and effects of and response to the food contamination scandal in a frank and honest way.

It is a great pleasure to follow the contributions from the hon. Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). They have great experience in terms of their personal backgrounds and in terms of Select Committees. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton made the point that we got away with it. That is the point that we want to focus on. It is not adequate to say that we got away with it. We need to ensure that, within the realms of all the identifiable risks that we can think of, we do not simply get away with it again. We need to put the right things in place to avoid it happening again. As has rightly been pointed out, fortunately there was not a major public safety scare, although there could have been. This was an issue of provenance. We need a fleet-footed response from all the agencies and Government and everybody else.

I also welcome to his new position as Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth—

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

indicated dissent.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My apologies. I was expecting to see the other new Minister. I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson). It is a great position and a great Department. I am sure he will do a wonderful job. I am beginning to think that DEFRA Ministers have taken against me as they keep disappearing in front of me. His previous role as a member of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee stands him in good stead. As I draw on evidence and recommendations from the Committee’s two reports, I am conscious that he is a collective author of those words, findings and recommendations.

[Dan Rogerson]

One of the reports.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The Minister is a collective author of one of the reports, and there is no way in which he would seek, for whatever reason—under pressure from officials or his Secretary of State, or the lure of the red box or the trappings of a Minister—to resile from the positions that he laid out so very recently. He is a good and honourable man and will stand by his words.

This is a timely debate to look back at the lessons learnt to try to avoid repeating the same mistakes and to return confidence to an industry that was shaken badly. To put it bluntly, consumers were tricked, deceived and defrauded by criminals operating within or alongside the food chain. It is the same food supply chain that we trust to supply safe, nutritious, affordable food and drink to our household tables, our schools and hospitals, and our care homes and cafeterias. That supply chain betrayed us—nothing less. It would be wrong, particularly while criminal investigations are ongoing, to delve too deeply into specific companies and individuals. I think the public and consumer organisations will be rightly outraged if the criminals who infiltrated the supply chain are not brought to book. If complicity or duplicity is identified within the supply chain itself, those companies and individuals should also be brought to book.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

It is a pleasure, Mrs Osborne, to serve under your chairmanship and to stand here as both a Minister and a member of the Select Committee—at least in name, if not in application. The House will remove me from the Committee in due course.

Before I get on to substantive matters, let me say that it has been an absolute pleasure and an honour to serve on that Committee for more than eight years, under the excellent chairmanship of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and also of Michael Jack, who did fine work as Chair of the Committee in the previous Parliament. It is also a pleasure to follow all those who spoke in this debate; they spoke with passion and brought insight. I may not agree with all the conclusions that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) has drawn, but I pay tribute none the less to his experience and the care that he has taken in preparing for this debate. As he knows, I have family roots in his constituency, so it is always a pleasure to hear from him.

I am grateful to the Chair of the Select Committee and colleagues for securing this debate, so that we can explore this issue in some depth. As highlighted, the incident has been the subject of a number of reviews and reports, which reflects the level of public concern and the fact that it is essential that consumers have confidence in the food that they buy or are served.

Food fraud is completely unacceptable, and that is what we are dealing with here. Consumers have every right to expect food to be correctly described. It is up to the whole food supply chain to ensure that such an incident does not happen again. As the Committee’s report says, industry’s assurance measures and the action that it takes to ensure the traceability of products are key to a sustainable food chain.

As the Committee is aware, the industry is taking its own steps to build consumer confidence. Although the Government should not be closely supervising the industry or limiting its ability to react to market signals, they do have a role in helping to restore consumer confidence and in enforcing EU law.

To help restore consumer confidence, the Government have encouraged industry to continue to give high priority to the testing of processed meat products and the sharing of information. More than 36,000 industry test results have been reported, covering manufacturing, processing, retail, catering and food service, which demonstrates the seriousness with which the industry is taking the need to remain vigilant and to restore consumer confidence in its food.

The Government agree that they have a role in working with businesses from across the food supply chain to identify ways to strengthen the industry and to enable it to respond to the challenges and opportunities that it faces. Regular meetings are being held, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, to ensure that British food is recognised for its rigorous standards and traceability and that our farmers and producers do not get a bad reputation as a result of incidents such as the one involving horsemeat.

Research shows that in the wake of the horsemeat incident, UK consumers have a greater level of trust in British produce, and the industry must welcome and build on that. That point was made by my hon. Friends the Members for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) and for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), as well as my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee in her opening remarks.

During the incident, the Government’s role focused on working with industry and local authorities to establish the scale of the problem, investigating and taking enforcement action against those responsible and prompting action at a European level to deal with some issues that have again been raised today. Our focus is now on learning and sharing the lessons from the incident and on improving the current approach to food authenticity and fraud.

The UK Government reacted quickly when they were alerted to the presence of horsemeat in beef products on sale in the UK by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland. That is backed up by the findings of the Troop review, mentioned by the Committee Chairman and others, into the FSA’s response to the incident.

The Committee has questioned whether the FSA should have done something sooner when the Food Safety Authority of Ireland mentioned that it was developing testing methods to detect horsemeat. I would like to clarify that a competent authority in another member state informing the UK that it is planning to develop a detection method is not the same as a member state informing the UK that it has found evidence of contamination or food fraud. We would hope and expect that any intelligence that another member state had would be shared with us at that juncture. Nothing was brought to the Government’s attention at that point; it was only that the FSAI was developing a test.

Just as we have a programme of work to develop testing to support our enforcement of EU food law, other member states develop methods for testing the authenticity of food. In its evidence to the Committee, the FSAI stated that it was “surprised” by the results and retested and reconfirmed the results before informing its Government officials and Ministers.

Once the presence of horsemeat in beef products had been identified as potential fraud, rather than unintended contamination, the UK’s response to the incident was rapid and extensive—more rapid and extensive than that of any other member state. An unprecedented level of testing was carried out quickly by industry and local authorities, the results of which were communicated to consumers and shared with the Commission and other European countries. It is to the credit of the industry and enforcement officers that that activity was carried out at pace and effectively, and to UK laboratories’ credit that they demonstrated the ability to up their capacity to meet demands.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I commend the Minister for making a very good first stab at it; I know that he will be excellent in this role—I genuinely mean that. However, I want to clarify that he is now distancing himself firmly from the recommendations and findings of the Committee and the National Audit Office. He is turning 180°.

[Dan Rogerson]

I am seeking areas of common ground between the two—between the Committee and the NAO. Having had the opportunity to discuss this matter with officials in preparation for this debate, having looked at the report from the Committee of which I was a member, having looked at the other report that the hon. Gentleman mentioned and having sought the evidence, what is clear to me as a Minister is the important distinction between the notification that a test was being developed and the discovery that horsemeat had been found. That is an important distinction.

The Government share the Committee’s desire to see those responsible for the situation brought to justice. I note the Committee’s concerns about the pace of those investigations and the number of arrests. However, it is a criminal matter and so is being dealt with by the prosecuting authorities—not something in which the Government should intervene. However, the police Gold Group, chaired by the City of London police, is taking the matter very seriously and the necessary steps are being taken.

Another point to make is that if we wanted a faster response, we might well have ended up with lesser fines, of the sort that Members have been concerned about today. We would have had a local authority response at a lower level, which would have been swifter but would perhaps not have picked up on the issues. I want to reassure Members present here that these investigations are live, that—as we know—arrests have been made and that these matters are being taken very seriously. However, it would not be proper for me to seek to jump to conclusions ahead of the report on those investigations.

We will continue to share information from the UK with Europol and other enforcing authorities, and we are mindful that a number of businesses in the UK have been victims of this fraud and will also be keen to see action taken against those responsible. People along the chain could be said to have been victims of the fraud.

As I said, the Government’s focus is on learning from and sharing the lessons from the incident, both through formal reviews and internal discussions to strengthen current activities. Following the publication of Professor Pat Troop’s review of the FSA’s handling of the incident, the FSA and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are working together to address the issues raised. In particular, they are looking at ways to strengthen and improve intelligence sharing with relevant partners, and to clarify the responsibilities and roles of the two organisations.

Horsemeat fraud is unacceptable, but that does not mean that the Government were not effectively identifying food contamination and fraud. Meat fraud and product substitution are not new; as my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton pointed out, across the centuries and across the sector as a whole these are things that unscrupulous people have attempted to get away with. In 2012, local authorities carried out more than 18,000 tests for food authenticity, including tests for meat substitution. However, enforcement officers were not looking for the presence of horsemeat. Instead, the focus of testing was for product substitution with more widely available products, such as chicken and pork.

What the horsemeat incident has demonstrated is the widespread and international nature of food fraud, and the need to consider products that are more readily available beyond the UK, to protect consumer confidence. The Government agree that to understand and robustly assess the risks, we need better intelligence sharing. The FSA and DEFRA are jointly working to achieve better intelligence sharing between Government, industry and local authorities. Intelligence is not solely about testing, and given finite resources it is right that sampling and testing by enforcement bodies should remain targeted and risk-based.

The increase in the number of reported incidents of food fraud demonstrates the effectiveness of that targeting, as well as the successful development of detection methods and the priority given to authenticity. The Government also agree that it is unacceptable for any local authority not to carry out food standards sampling, and the FSA will continue to work with local authorities to ensure that all of them meet the standards set out in the framework agreement. Although we all understand the pressures on local government, the matter is very clear and the FSA has also been clear about working with partners in local government to ensure that those standards are delivered.

The Government recognise that they have a role in horizon-scanning for the unknown risks, but this should be done in a manner and on a scale that still represents good value to the taxpayer. That is something that we will need to consider further and it will still need to be based on intelligence for it to be justified. We are already strengthening information sharing between departments, by linking the emerging risks programme and the authenticity programme to improve our ability to horizon-scan the next unknown risk. The FSA has also reviewed its own operational structure to give greater direction and priority to identifying and combating food fraud in the future.

On the issue that a number of hon. Members raised about the report line for the FSA, we have to be absolutely clear that the FSA is a non-ministerial department of Government. It advises other Departments and shares information with them, as I have been saying, but it is not subject in any way either to my own Department or to the Department of Health. It is independent, and its independence is welcomed. Obviously, that it would be independent was the intention of the previous Government in constituting it.

Although we are looking to communicate better the roles and responsibilities of the FSA and DEFRA, the Government do not accept that machinery of government changes in 2010 impacted on the Government’s handling of the horsemeat incident or on the independent status of the FSA. The FSA led the response from day one, with DEFRA and the FSA working closely together throughout to deliver an effective response. It is right that Ministers were held to account for updating Parliament on the situation during the incident; it is right that Ministers took the lead in initiating action at a European level; and it is also right that the FSA led on investigating the incident and taking enforcement action. The FSA leads on enforcement, and it has in place the necessary framework and relationships with local authorities to instigate sampling and testing.

There will always be boundary issues for the Government’s interest in food, and it is our responsibility to ensure that these issues are understood and that we have the measures in place to make them work. The recent horsemeat incident has demonstrated that the FSA and DEFRA can work together to address issues such as food fraud, but we recognise that there is always more to be done to ensure that stakeholders understand where those boundaries lie and why, even if they do not agree with them.

As the Select Committee is aware, the Government’s independent review, “Integrity and Assurance of Food Supply Networks”, will focus on consumer confidence in the authenticity of food products, identifying any weaknesses that could have implications for food safety and authenticity. The review will consider the efficiency of current frameworks and operations, and I am sure that stakeholders will have taken the opportunity to raise their concerns or highlight issues.

The Chair of the Select Committee raised the issue of reviews. It is important to point out that this is a separate review. The Troop review was into the incident itself; this review will now set out where we go from here. It is looking at what we need to do to ensure the integrity of the supply chain right the way across, and we look forward to the interim publication of its findings later in the year.

The “Integrity and Assurance of Food Supply Networks” review is not only focused on Government but will look at the roles, and responsibilities to consumers, of the industry, and at what businesses need to do to support consumer confidence. That is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton made when he was talking about the responsibility of the industry. As the Government, we are engaging with this issue and seeking to reassure people that the food chain is secure, but ultimately those involved in the food chain are responsible for it. They are the ones who are selling products to consumers, engaging with producers and taking part in that chain.

My hon. Friend was absolutely right to raise that issue; the Government have a role in this process, but we must ensure that it is those who are involved in the chain itself who guarantee its integrity. The food industry is ultimately responsible for making sure that food is authentic and meets the required standards expected not only by the Government but most importantly, as hon. Members have said, by consumers.

I am sure that, as I am, the Committee is looking forward to seeing Professor Chris Elliott’s interim report in December.

[Miss McIntosh]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his first outing as Minister. There is some common ground between us, but there are still areas of disagreement. Nevertheless, we have had a very good debate and exchange this afternoon.

It was remiss of me not to thank all those who participated in our inquiry, including the witnesses, who gave both oral and written evidence. I will momentarily point out to my hon. Friend the Minister that his name is recorded in the formal minutes of both reports and we were delighted to have his support.

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Lady is absolutely correct. When I was responding to the hon. Member for Ogmore earlier, I thought that he was referring to the NAO report when he talked about “two reports”, rather than the two phases of the work that the Committee did.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Are you in the NAO report as well? [Laughter.]

[Dan Rogerson]

No—absolutely not.

[Miss McIntosh]

Anyway, a week is a long time in politics.

I will just go through some of the points that have been made. Regarding traceability and the supply chain, I think that the Minister has taken the point, and we need to process that.

On insufficient testing, we concluded—although none of us spelled it out, and it was remiss of me not to do so—that the FSA at the moment does not force the industry retailers to carry out testing. It would be good if we could agree that the Department should look into that and consider giving the FSA a steer on it. Perhaps the Elliott review will do that, and say that large retailers must carry out regular DNA testing of meat ingredients for frozen and processed meat products, with the cost being borne by themselves—the industry—and not by the consumers. That point has been echoed by hon. Members throughout the debate and I think that consumers will respond to it. We insisted, in our conclusions, that the results of the tests ordered by the FSA should be submitted to it and that a summary should be published on the retailer’s website.

There must be change in respect of issuing horse passports. There is a worrying increase in numbers of horses in my county, let alone between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland.

We need to deal with insufficient testing by retailers, including supermarkets, especially those who do not do it at all. I will be pleased if the Elliott review addresses the issue of analysts. I welcome what the Minister said about strengthening intelligence sharing.

[Dan Rogerson]

I should like to mention a couple of points that I did not talk about directly in my remarks. The issue of horse passports will be settled at European level, but the Government are keen to engage in that process and see what can be done, as long as it is proportionate, to ensure that we get it right.

The NAO considered capacity in terms of analysts, although it did not say that there was a lack of capacity. The FSA holds that under review, so we will keep a close eye on that.

[Miss McIntosh]

I am most grateful to the Minister. Although it would be hugely expensive to deal with, there is concern about abattoirs slaughtering both cattle and horses. We need to be aware of that.

There is a real issue about the governance and structural problems. I poked fun at the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ogmore, about how his Government set the structure up. However, it is possible that we have been seen to compound that situation. We will be able to draw a line under this matter only when we can say, hand on heart, where contamination, adulteration and lack of authenticity entered into the food chain. The sooner we can see prosecutions of the perpetrators from the big retailers, the more it will boost consumer confidence.

I endorse comments made about the processed foods that have been a cause of concern. At the heart of our report was concern about processed foods and frozen foods.

I am delighted that the Minister, and the shadow Minister, gave us a hearing today.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

3. What timetable he has set for the completion of the England coastal path.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

We have not set a timetable for completion of the English coastal path. We will be implementing coastal access step by step by tailoring the amount of activity to the resources available. Natural England is currently working on a programme to deliver coastal access on a number of stretches of the English coast.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

At a cost of £1 per metre, the coastal path represents excellent value for money. However, the Minister’s predecessor showed little enthusiasm for the project, leading to fears that it would be shelved. Will the Minister confirm that the coastal path budget will be protected during deliberations on the Department’s future spending, and give a date for final completion?

[Dan Rogerson]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question: it was a pleasure to serve alongside her briefly on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee following her election. The key issue for us is pushing forward this project, but we have to be honest about the fact that we are in a time of restricted resources. We must therefore be efficient in working with landowners and others to streamline the process and to deliver the coastal access that everyone in the House would like to see.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

4. How many cattle were slaughtered in Britain as a result of bovine tuberculosis in the last 10 years; and at what cost.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

7. What plans he has to protect consumers from excessive rises in water bills.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

Water bills are regulated by Ofwat, which sets price limits every five years. Government guidance to Ofwat in advance of the 2014 price review has emphasised the importance of delivering a fair deal for all customers, and of protecting customers who are struggling to pay their bills. We have also published guidance to help companies to introduce social tariffs for vulnerable customers.

[Julie Elliott]

There is a cost-of-living crisis in my constituency and throughout the country. Millions of households in England and Wales are experiencing water poverty. Will the Minister support Labour’s proposal to impose—not just recommend—a duty on water companies to introduce social tariffs to help struggling families to pay their bills?

[Dan Rogerson]

I entirely understand what the hon. Lady has said about the cost of living. We are all aware of the problem. I represent an area in which incomes are very low, and in which water bills are a significant issue. It is clear from our discussions with Ofwat—my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has engaged in some recently—that it understands the importance of the issue, and believes that the benefits to water companies of, for example, low borrowing rates should be passed on to customers. I am pleased that companies are considering the introduction of social tariffs, and I shall continue to keep the matter under review.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I congratulate all who have been elevated to both Front Benches. We look forward to the return, in the very near future, of those of them who have served on the Select Committee—[Laughter]—in their ministerial capacity.

Will my hon. Friend use his good offices to press Ofwat to ensure that the 2014 price review enables the necessary investment to be made in the infrastructure and in innovation? May I also tease out of him the date on which the Water Bill will be given its Second Reading, and can be scrutinised by Parliament?

[Dan Rogerson]

I thought for a moment that my hon. Friend, who chairs the Select Committee, was petitioning the Prime Minister to summon us back to it, and that our tenure on the Front Benches might be very brief.

The timing of the Bill is, of course, a matter for those who manage our business. I look forward to debating the issues with colleagues in the House and, subsequently, in Committee.

What my hon. Friend has said about investment in the sector is crucial. We have already managed, through our regime, to deliver huge investment in water infrastructure. We now want to establish a regime which, while being fair to customers, also attracts further investment, so that we can have an industry that is fit for the future.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

May I begin by paying tribute to the previous Minister who worked in a bipartisan manner throughout his term in office and welcoming both new members of the Government Front-Bench team? I should also thank the chairlady of the Select Committee for her tutelage of us all over the past three and a half years.

Does the Minister understand that when households are struggling with inflation-busting water bills, it is simply unacceptable for water companies to try to avoid paying corporation tax? If he does, will he work with Opposition Members to make the necessary improvements to the forthcoming Water Bill?

[Dan Rogerson]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his post and look forward to debating these issues with him. As we look at the regime the Bill is seeking to bring in, we can discuss some of these issues, although there are probably other key areas we will want to focus on. The issue of corporation tax is crucial across many industries and I look forward to hearing what the hon. Gentleman has to say on the subject as we move forward.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)]

T4. Will the Secretary of State ensure more people are able to enjoy access to woodlands, particularly those close to our towns and cities?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

We are consulting on the future of the publicly owned forest and management of forestry issues generally and looking at what we will take forward. There are many excellent landowners, such as the Woodland Trust and the National Trust, who encourage public access and enjoyment of woodland and I look forward to working with them and other landowners to ensure we increase access for everybody.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

A National Audit Office report today shows the response to the horsemeat scandal was hampered by confusion caused by the coalition Government splitting the Food Standards Agency’s responsibilities in 2010. It also raises concerns over the reductions in food testing, public analysts and local officers working on food law enforcement since this Government came to power. So will Ministers now accept their share of responsibility—or is this the fault of the badgers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Rogerson]

Although in England we cannot mandate where the money will go, because the relevant primary legislation, the Climate Change Act 2008, does not allow for that, we will discuss with retailers how the money raised should be spent and encourage them to give the profits to good causes. We have an expectation that, as in Wales, the money raised should benefit good causes.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

T3. Is the Secretary of State aware of the most recent piece of scientific research on the Cayman turtle farm? It supports the position of the World Society for the Protection of Animals that: “There is no humane way to farm sea turtles”. Will he, along with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, take decisive action to alleviate the suffering of these endangered animals?

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State meet me and my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson) to discuss the persistent and serious breaches of control of the Waste4Fuel site on the boundary of our constituencies, which the Environment Agency appears to be unable to cope with?

[Dan Rogerson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the concerns of his constituents about this site. I have looked into the issue, am aware of it and discuss it with the Environment Agency. If he and my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington wish to meet me to discuss it, I will be happy to do so.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

Does the Minister share the concern of Stoke-on-Trent boat club, and the Association of Waterways Cruising Clubs all over the country, about DEFRA’s deferment of the decision to stop Environment Agency navigation waters going over to the Canal and River Trust? Will he urgently review that situation and raise it with the Treasury?

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Lady has obviously been concerned about these matters for some time. I would be happy to hear more from her about the details and perhaps we could take the matter forward on that basis.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

Do my right hon. and hon. Friends share my alarm at the growing practice of Natural England’s insisting on the removal of sheep from land under new stewardship projects? Given the absolute need for the UK to be able to provide more of its own food, is that not a dangerous step? Will Ministers take action?

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 24th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Heath]

I welcome and encourage all such beneficial collaborations. They can serve to optimise the input costs, efficiency, competitiveness and ultimate profitability of our farmers, all of which are key to their long-term future.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

Following the excellent work that the Government have done to secure the access of pigmeat from this country into China, for example, what work is the Minister able to do to encourage dairy processors to look slightly to the longer term in developing these markets, given that the more low-hanging fruit might be just to explore opportunities in this country?

[Mr Heath]

We continue to press all the opportunities that we can for export potential. Indeed, the Secretary of State was in Shanghai recently pressing for exactly what my hon. Friend is asking for, which is opportunities for dairy exports in China. The industry needs to grasp opportunities, when they are there, to develop new export markets and find the right products for the right place so that we can expand our industry.

Ash Dieback Disease

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Heath]

It is important that we work with everybody; this is not something that we can leave entirely to the scientists and the experts. Anyone who spots an incidence of disease in trees would do well to advise the authorities. We can then use the great body of voluntary organisations that are interested in the health of our forests to do all we can to deal with the disease as quickly as possible. I repeat that there was not a delay over the summer. Planting does not take place during the summer period and, as far as we are aware, the voluntary moratorium has worked very well.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

Given the importance of a joined-up approach to tackling the threat to trees and plants, will my hon. Friend tell us the likely make-up and remit of the expert taskforce?

[Mr Heath]

We are keen to bring together experts in plant disease, industry experts and wider forest interests so that we can see what more, if anything, can be done to deal with what could be a disastrous outbreak of the disease. We also need to look at how we will deal most effectively with plant and tree health in future. The Secretary of State and I have discussed that, because we feel that for many years this country has not been as well equipped to deal with plant health as it has with animal health. I would like us to be prepared for all eventualities at all times.

Badger Cull

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

The debate has unfortunately become perhaps a little polarised, but we have had a determination to focus on the science. The interesting thing is that the same scientists are being used—if I might use that expression—by both sides.

The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox), my near neighbour, has highlighted the issue as it was set out to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee. I am still a member of the Select Committee, and I have served on it since 2005. As the Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), said earlier, we hope to look again at some of the vaccination issues in the near future. However, the main piece of work that the Select Committee carried out during that period was the one to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred.

I will come back to the science, but I want briefly to re-emphasise something that many hon. Members on both sides of the debate have pointed out. This is a very pressing issue in terms of cost to the rural economy and to the Treasury—indeed, to all of us as taxpayers—because of the amount of money having to be spent dealing with the effects of the problem, even if we are not dealing with the causes. Those costs will continue to rise, as has been freely admitted on both sides.

There is a human effect, too. We have heard about the disease’s effect on farmers—not just the distress caused, but the fact that ultimately it will push some people out of farming. I wrote to a court where a company was trying to repossess a farmer’s property, on the basis partly of the farm being under TB restrictions and therefore not being able to trade efficiently. The farmer and his family and others employed by the business constantly live with that worry.

The disease has an animal welfare cost for livestock and the wildlife population.

[Roger Williams]

Some people who keep cattle are saying, “I can’t put up with this any more,” so they sell their cows and buy a plough, with the result that more wheat is being grown, which is not what we want for the landscape.

[Dan Rogerson]

That is absolutely true, although in parts of my hon. Friend’s constituency and of mine that choice is not available, so land will go out of production, with the loss of all the environmental “goods” such as stewardship and protection of the landscape.

The only piece of work that we have on which we can base an understanding of the science is, as hon. Members on both sides of the debate have said, the report that the ISG submitted to the Government based on the randomised culling trials. The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon was right that its conclusions are crucial to the debate, but the question is whether one stops just before the end of the report, where the group said that culling has an effect and can help, or goes on to the coda, where it outlines its ultimate position and states that it does not think culling is practical. I argue that that is for the Government, politicians and those who will implement the policy on the ground to resolve. That I why the Select Committee felt that we needed to give the Government a chance to respond.

The hon. and learned Member spoke of the Select Committee’s membership in the previous Parliament: the late David Taylor, an active Member on many issues and on culling; the former Member for Stroud, David Drew; and Dr Lynne Jones. They were of such independent minds that it was a great comfort to Lord McAvoy when the Committee visited rural North Yorkshire or the south-west to look into the issue, because if instead they had been here, they might have been a little more challenging of the then Government’s position on whatever matter was being debated. They freely admitted that they were not convinced that culling was the answer to the problem, whereas others wanted to give those in the farming community the opportunity to show that it could work. The collective view that we reached appears in black and white.

The scientists—Professor John Bourne, Christl Donnelly, Rosie Woodroffe and Sir David King—gave evidence before us. The atmosphere between them was interesting; it was probably more of an atmosphere than we sometimes have in here for Prime Minister’s Question Time, such was their commitment to the work they had done. None the less, the Select Committee reached the view that it did.

I should like to look at the alternatives to the culling trials. I emphasise that we are discussing pilots, not country-wide implementation overnight, and moving forward carefully, sensitively and in line with the science in two areas to demonstrate that culling is effective.

[Andrew George]

Of course, after these two pilots merely assess the effectiveness and humaneness of the culling method, the intention is then to roll it out throughout the country at a very much accelerated pace.

[Dan Rogerson]

We will see what happens during the pilots. Looking at the methodology is one of the key issues, as my hon. Friend rightly points out. It might be that other problems are pointed out, which would make it impossible to continue, but we have to give the people involved the chance to carry out and test what happens. As Opposition Members have said, we will not have the data that we need to move on unless we try to do what the ISG findings point towards: using the hard boundaries, using the wider area and getting on and doing it.

I have heard some hon. Members say that the coalition Government have cut spending on vaccination. Actually, since 1994, just over £40 million has been invested; over the next four years, the Government are planning to invest over £15 million. That means an acceleration of the effort towards vaccination. We still have problems with the tests. It is possible that the DIVA test will get us where we want to be, but we are still not there yet. The practicality of vaccination is another issue. We have talked about the practicality of a cull, but there are huge problems around vaccination.

We would all like to get to a state where it is not necessary to carry out intervention of this sort in wildlife. We would all like farmers and others concerned about animal welfare issues to unite around something—but we are not yet there. Effectively, we are saying, “Let’s do nothing.”

On biosecurity measures, the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who, as she said, has looked a great deal at food policy, painted a bit of a picture of farmers who were completely lackadaisical and not at all interested in biosecurity. It is in their interests to be interested in biosecurity, as they are the ones who suffer in their businesses from restrictions and all the other problems that we have now. Of course they are taking the issue seriously. The one or two of them who are not will be rejected by the rest of the industry, which is absolutely committed to delivering on the further restrictions that the Government are introducing.

To say that the cull is an easy option and that farmers are going to hang up on biosecurity, forget all about it and just get on with killing badgers is absolute nonsense. I do not want to over-characterise what the hon. Lady said, but the gist was that farmers do not care. Of course, the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) was quite scathing in what he had to say.

I am running out of time. To Members who think that those of us with rural constituencies are doing this because we are after votes, I should like to say that we are not. Huge numbers of people even in my own constituency where bovine TB is a problem have told me that they are worried about a cull of badgers. We are doing this and supporting it because it is the only game in town at the moment—it is the only thing that we can possibly do to bear down on this problem. If we fail, we will deserve to be roundly criticised.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Heath]

I wish it were that easy. I wish we could ignore all the regulations and precautionary measures that are taken for the licensing of vaccines and just go to the EU and say, “Sort this out. Do it tomorrow,” and then come back and start using the vaccine. However, it is not that easy. We cannot put at risk several billion pounds-worth of produce from this country by implementing something that is illegal. Last week we saw a lot of nonsense in the newspapers about people going over to the European Commission to sort it all out because we stupid Ministers could not quite bring ourselves to do it. We have had an announcement from the Commission; it was mentioned earlier. It said that the Commission was disappointed to see an article by Brian May in The Mail on Sunday on 21 October, that some of the quotes were out of context or inaccurate and therefore misleading, and that vaccination of cattle against TB is forbidden under current EU rules agreed by all member states. That is very clear.

I will happily arrange for those who are genuinely interested in this issue and who want us to develop a vaccine, as we do, to speak to Glyn Hewinson at the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency—our chief scientist who is working on this—and he will tell them directly, as he told me only two weeks ago, the exact state of play with vaccines. I want a vaccine to be in position at the earliest opportunity, but I have to face facts, and wishful thinking is not going to get rid of bovine tuberculosis in this country. We must have programmes and measures that work, and we must use all the tools in the box.

[Dan Rogerson]

I am glad that my hon. Friend has set out the Government’s intention to persist, with determination, with vaccines but also to look at the testing regime, which is crucial in allowing the whole process to work in future. In the meantime, I am pleased that he is also continuing to pursue pilots to ensure that the science is further improved so that we are completely ready and have all the arguments at our fingertips.

[Mr Heath]

Let me be absolutely clear: we will use every tool in the box to bear down on bovine TB. That is why we are not going to reject something that has been shown by experimental evidence to be efficacious as part of the answer, as some would have us do. That is why we will continue to put a lot more money into research and push ever further on the research into vaccines. That is why we will continue to do everything we can on controls for the movement of cattle and on biosecurity. If the question is, “Will you not do the cull and will you lock up every cow in the country in a shed to prevent them from having contact with badgers?”, the answer is no.

The Government are determined to tackle bovine tuberculosis by all the means available to us. Having looked at all the evidence over many years, I am utterly convinced that badger control is the right thing to do. Indeed, the higher than expected badger numbers only serve to underline the need for urgent action. I remain fully committed to working with the farming industry to ensure that the pilot culls can be delivered effectively, safely and humanely next summer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

As we are undertaking a Cook’s tour, we might hear about broadband in Cornwall.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

I am happy to focus on broadband across rural areas, Mr Speaker.

Will the Secretary of State ensure that all the programmes that the Government are funding, such as the one in Cornwall, which involves European Union structural funds, prioritise the areas that are still on dial-up? I am concerned that we are concentrating on superfast broadband—areas that some companies would have got to in a few years anyway—when we need to prioritise those still on dial-up.

[Mr Paterson]

I entirely sympathise with my hon. Friend’s comments about the problems in rural areas—I have already touched on the problems in my constituency. It is an absolute priority for us to get functioning broadband that works right across the country by 2015.

Bovine TB and Badger Control

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

It will be the marginal costs. We will have to discuss that with the relevant forces and come up with a number.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

The Secretary of State has rightly said that the Government will continue to tackle all sources of the disease and to look at biosecurity, as well as dealing with the cull. If there are further problems over the next few months with the designated cull areas, will he look at other areas where landowners and farmers might be keen to be part of the cull trial?

[Mr Paterson]

That is an interesting question. Yes, I will look at that in detail. At the moment, the NFU is probably thinking of carrying on in the two areas where it has put in such a lot of work and preparation, but I am open to looking at other areas. We want to pull off two pilots that show that this system, in a bigger area and with a more efficient system of culling, does work and does reduce TB.

Dairy Industry

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 13th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Walker. To put a time limit on speeches was a courageous decision for someone who is currently running for office.

I welcome the new Minister to his post. He may know that the last Liberal Minister to hold the farming brief was Auberon Herbert, who was President of the Board of Agriculture between 1914 and 1915. However, that does not bode well for the current Minister because Herbert only held his post for one year and did not survive the forming of a coalition Government. None the less, I wish the Minister well in the post.

I am sure that hon. Members wish to pay tribute to the outgoing Agriculture Minister, the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice). While he and I may not always have agreed, he did his best and will be sadly missed by the farming industry and by members of the Environment and Rural Affairs Committee.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). We served together on the Select Committee, and as many Members know, he is a mine of information on agriculture. He and I have combined on more than one occasion to ensure that our farmers’ voices have been heard in Parliament. He is a real champion of Devon farmers and regularly makes the case that Devon cream is far superior to Cornish cream. With your permission, Mr Walker, he will sum up at the end of the debate.

A number of important debates are taking place in the House today, and I appreciate that Members might not be able to stay for the whole of this debate. None the less, I thank everyone for coming along.

Members will know that despite the favourable market conditions, the UK dairy sector has been a source of dispute for a number of years. During the summer, the public campaign led by dairy farmers to protest against large cuts in milk prices captured the British public’s imagination. The profile generated by that campaign combined with the lobbying and overwhelming support from all parts of the House have resulted in some significant progress. Indeed, more than 70 parliamentarians went to the National Farmers Union’s dairy summit in July. Several retailers that were identified as not doing enough to support the dairy farmers took belated steps to address some of the unsustainable prices that they paid for their milk. That has helped processors either rescind or reverse the effects of their proposed August milk price cuts. Many of the same retailers have made commitments to address their long-term pricing models for liquid milk. That is very welcome.

In recent days, Arla Foods has committed itself to a 2.5p per litre rise, and today Müller-Wiseman has announced that it will raise its price to 29p per litre. Agreement has been reached between farming unions and Dairy UK on a voluntary code of practice for dairy contracts. However, the industry still suffers from systemic problems that need to be addressed. As the NFU has warned this week, if we do not take action, recent progress will be nothing more than a sticking-plaster solution.

The milk supply industry is not made up simply of producers and processors. Supermarkets also have an important role to play in ensuring fair prices. It is simplistic to portray all retailers as the villains of the piece; the situation is much more complex. Some retailers, such as Tesco and Sainsbury’s, have taken progressive steps in the liquid milk sector, with dedicated pools of producers, and they should be congratulated.

The cheese market remains much more challenging for farmers, however. I hope that one outcome of the code will be to increase transparency in the pricing of milk going to make cheese. Last year, the Select Committee took evidence from Tesco for our report on the dairy industry. We found dishonest its arguments on why it does not provide the same support for farmers who produce milk for the cheese market. It is ludicrous to suggest that there is not enough stability in demand for a workable contract for cheese.

The Select Committee was clear that if supermarkets such as Tesco continue to rip off farmers, the Government should be prepared to step in. Tesco is by no means the worst offender, and I am disappointed to have to report that we are repeatedly told that the Co-op provides the worst deal to dairy farmers. It is vital that customers and Co-op Members apply pressure to those retailers to provide a fairer share of the retail value to their suppliers.

The recent crisis was brought about by the reckless actions of Asda, which was selling milk at a loss-leading price of eight pints for £2, which is less than the price of bottled water. That in turn sparked a price war, which inevitably led to a cut in the price being paid to farmers. While supermarkets have seen quarter on quarter rises in their profits, many farmers have been pushed to the brink. Although I welcome moves by Morrisons, Asda and the Co-op belatedly to increase their price, they have a responsibility to ensure that we have a sustainable dairy industry now and in the future.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Although he has been making a good case, he made some rather strange assertions about cream, which we will brush over. Does he agree that when looking at how the price is passed on to the various people in the chain, the trends that have emerged are that the processors’ share seems to have been relatively static, the retailers’ share has grown and the farmers’ share has shrunk? Anything that we do to look at the relationship between the processor and the farmer must also take account of the relationship between the retailer and the processor.

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman is correct. I will touch on the role that the groceries code may play in that process in the future. I did not say that I necessarily agreed with the assertions about Devon, but they have been forcefully made on more than one occasion.

I say well done to those retailers who have belatedly got on board, but why did it take them so long? The actions of the House and the dairy industry forced the retailers to take those steps. Members on both sides of the House will look to the Minister to hold all elements of the supply chain to account. We all want the groceries code and the voluntary code to work, but it is vital that he takes the lead on pushing through these issues.

On the specific case of the adjudicator, the previous Government gained cross-party support for a supermarket ombudsman to ensure a fair deal for farmers and food producers from the major retailers. Following a Competition Commission inquiry in 2008, Labour introduced a new groceries supply code of practice in August 2009, which came into effect in February 2010. The Competition Commission also recommended the creation of an ombudsman to enforce and monitor the code of practice.

This Government presented their Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill in the House of Lords before the summer recess. However, the Bill grants only limited power to the adjudicator to tackle the issues in the dairy industry. It will be limited to tackling the direct supply between the processor and the supermarket, or the farmer if they have a direct contract with the supermarket, and will not be able to deal with a three-party contract. I hope that the Minister will reflect on that and listen to the Select Committee’s cross-party advice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Heath]

I am responsible only for farming in England. However, I have already contacted the analogous post holders in the devolved Administrations. I am keen to work with them to establish, as far as possible, common practice across the nations of the United Kingdom to ensure we do the best for our farmers.

I will continue the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire in the dairy supply chain forum, which is a crucial element in keeping a secure domestic market as a strong base from which to innovate, explore and expand the horizons. There are opportunities for replacing imported goods with British dairy products. I am glad that the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) has done such work in his constituency.

There are clear openings for sending out British dairy products for the world to enjoy. I have already started that process. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are committed to opening those markets, which I hope will expand the interests and reach of the British dairy industry to all parts of the world, including emerging markets.

[Dan Rogerson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Heath]

Unfortunately, I do not think I can give way, although I would love to do so.

I will continue supporting the Dairy 2020 project and the dairy roadmap, which we want to continue producing positive change. I wish we had another hour so we could carry on talking about what the dairy industry means to the country and how we can support it, but I will summarise my support for the industry. I am committed to a dairy industry that delivers for the future. I want to work strategically with the industry, with a clear focus, particularly in the dairy supply chain forum, on delivering the vision of an

“ambitious strategy for the UK dairy industry’s future without EU milk quotas, which takes full advantage of growing domestic and global demand for dairy products.”

I want to promote British dairy products overseas and remove barriers to trade through the joint Government-industry export action plan, under which DEFRA is researching markets and products that have the biggest potential for export.

I want to talk directly to businesses and to understand what they really think about their prospects, what barriers they struggle with and what they need to grow and take advantage of export opportunities. I want to encourage collaboration and new approaches and to make the best use of the £5 million boost to dairy businesses through the rural efficiency grant scheme. I want to push marketing, joint ventures and new facilities, which are central to enabling the industry to diversify and increase exports. I want better information and advice, and I want to work with experts to provide the information and advice that dairy businesses need, particularly on exports.

We need a sustainable dairy industry. I cannot do everything, but I am determined to do all I can to support that ambition. I simply do not believe that the consumer buys milk from the supermarket on price, a point that has been raised several times. There is an artificial market for milk and milk products in this country. If we can break free, and if we can unleash the British public’s enthusiasm for buying British products in British supermarkets, which this summer has shown, we will have done well by the industry.

I am grateful for the support of so many hon. Members.