Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2012 Commons Chamber

The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission was asked—

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

5. What recent assessment the Electoral Commission has made of the accuracy of the electoral register.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton)]

The Electoral Commission’s 2011 report, “Great Britain’s electoral registers”, estimated the accuracy of the 1 April 2011 parliamentary register to be 85.5% and the accuracy of the 1 April 2011 local government register to be 85.4%. The Electoral Commission defines accuracy as the percentage of entries on the registers that relate to verified and eligible voters who are resident at that address.

[Dan Rogerson]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that answer. He will be aware that in areas such as Cornwall, the number of multiple property owners appearing on the register at various addresses is a matter of concern. I welcome the steps the Government have taken to provide electoral registration officers with the tools to help crack down on that issue. Will the Electoral Commission look at that issue to ensure that the guidance to electoral registration officers is absolutely up to date and that they are aware of the role they can play in ensuring that it really is one person, one vote?

[Sir Gerald Kaufman]

I know that this issue has been a matter of continuing concern to the hon. Gentleman, and I am grateful to him for raising it again on this occasion. The Electoral Commission is certainly ready to advise electoral registration officers on how most accurately to ascertain the residences of second home owners and whether the people living in them have the right to be registered for a second home. As the hon. Gentleman will know, there are rules in secondary legislation to make that more precise. I am sure that the Electoral Commission will be willing to advise all electoral registration officers if they feel in need of that advice.

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Shuker]

The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that when the power under clause 1 is triggered, there is proper parliamentary accountability and oversight at the time of making any reductions. The hon. Lady mentions the regulatory regime. It would not be particularly affected under clause 1 as it currently stands. Ofwat’s role will be to see the money coming in and the money going out. This amendment would not change that situation at all, except that we in this House would have the opportunity to examine any scheme that is to be established and to have answers to any questions we might have: namely, how long, for which customers and for what duration.

As I have said, we agree with the proposals to give financial relief to the south-west from April 2013. Indeed, we examined this issue when in government and laid the groundwork for helping 700,000 households in the region. We therefore accept the argument that the south-west requires additional help to keep water affordable, but stopping there misses the point.

The south-west has the highest bills in the country and about 200,000 people are under water stress. In the Thames region, that number is 1.1 million, however. Our new clause 1 therefore starts with the simple proposition that by April 2013—the month when financial assistance will start flowing to Devon and Cornwall—the Secretary of State should bring forward minimum standards for a company social tariff. We think that is not too much to ask.

The numbers speak for themselves. As I established on Second Reading, 400,000 households in Wales, 460,000 households in Yorkshire, 780,000 households in the Severn Trent region and 1.1 million households in the Thames region pay more than 3% of their disposable income on water. The squeeze on living standards is real. This Government’s actions are contributing to high inflation and pressure on family budgets. The rise in VAT has pushed up the price of petrol, and the cost of child care is going up at twice the rate of wages, just as the Government cut that element of the working tax credit. Families with children who cannot raise their working hours from 16 to 24 could find themselves almost £3,000 worse off from next month. Energy prices have risen, while for many people pay has been frozen.

The crunch will be felt first and worst by low and middle-income families, particularly those with children. A single-earner couple household with kids that is earning £44,000 might sound well-off—and, indeed, in comparison to many, it is—but it will be hit hard by the £1,750 a year that it will lose overnight when child benefit is scrapped.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

I am intrigued that the hon. Gentleman wants to have a debate about tax credits, as we recently had a vote on such issues. Is he going to mention the fact that this Government are delivering free nursery places for the most disadvantaged two-year-olds, and that increasing numbers of children will be covered by that in the course of this Parliament?

[Gavin Shuker]

I will not test your patience, Mr Hoyle, by continuing that debate. The hon. Gentleman puts his case on the record, but one of the key arguments in respect of new clause 1 is the squeeze on family living standards. We believe it would be wrong to park that argument in a different silo from the rising costs of water bills.

People are facing falling living standards, frozen wages and rising water bills. Our amendment would ensure that the power to introduce a company social tariff—a power that we legislated for when in government—is followed by Government action to ensure that these schemes are effective at making water affordable for those who are struggling to pay. Under the current Government’s plans, the design of any social tariff is entirely in the hands of each of our 20 or so water companies. Apart from WaterSure, there will be no national tariff, and there will be no national branding of water affordability schemes. Outside the south-west, there will be no new Government money to help those who cannot pay.

Under this Government’s plans, it is even down to the individual companies to decide whether to introduce a social tariff scheme at all. Although we believe the industry and Government should be working towards a national affordability solution, the first part of new clause 1 would require the Secretary of State to bring forward plans for minimum standards for water company social tariffs.

The second part is just as important. We know that if we cannot measure it, we cannot manage it. Therefore, water companies should be held to account by ensuring a league table is published each and every year reporting on the performance of company social tariffs. In the energy sector, Ofgem sets parameters for what can be included by suppliers as part of their spend on social initiatives, and it annually monitors suppliers’ progress against the voluntary commitment. A handful of water companies already have good social tariff schemes, but we want to raise the bar for all companies to the standards of the rest of the industry, both by requiring the Secretary of State to have minimum standards approved by Parliament, and by the monitoring and reporting of all companies, shaming those poor performers into action. By also requiring the number of households spending more than 3% and 5% of their disposable income on water to be published, we can monitor the scale of the affordability problem and make meaningful comparisons between companies.

Our amendment 1 and new clause 1 are attempts to improve the Bill. We welcome the money for the south-west, but stopping there misses the point. People’s ability to pay for something as basic as water should not be subject to a postcode lottery. This issue is at the heart of shaping a socially responsible water industry in the years to come. I hope the Minister will accept the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Miss McIntosh]

I am most grateful for that clarification. It would be interesting to know the background to the amendment and, in particular, to new clause 1. It would be helpful to know what discussions took place and what level of support the hon. Gentleman has from water companies and from Ofwat.

I did not have the opportunity to discuss this matter on Second Reading. It is appropriate to examine new clause 1 and amendment 1, as I have a concern and I am trying to help the Minister. A helpful Library note spells out clearly:

“The Government intends that bills be reduced from April 2013. The funding will come from the HM Treasury Reserve until the end of the spending review period in 2014-15. After that time funding will come from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs…budget.”

I understand that that was confirmed in a House of Commons debate in January.

“The payment will continue until ‘at least the end of the next spending review period’.”

So my question is: from which part of the Department’s budget is this funding going to come from 2014-15 until, presumably, 2019-20?

I must make a general remark about departmental budgets, and I do not think that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is any different in this regard. We had the opportunity to question the Secretary of State on the annual report, in its new revised format, and the annual accounts. I think that there is a lack of transparency and clarity in all the departmental accounts—I do not single DEFRA out. I am deeply concerned about the position for those in the south-west whose water bills will or could benefit from this Bill, and for those in other areas who could benefit subsequently, as highlighted in amendment 1 and new clause 1. My real concern relates to how this will be funded in the next spending review period, given that we have not yet worked through all the savings in the budgets of the Department and other agencies, such as the Environment Agency. I am prepared to give any assistance I can in arguing with the Treasury that this money should be ring-fenced. Obviously, there is real concern that if it is not ring-fenced or if additional money cannot be found, other parts of the budget currently being spent on farming or flood defence will simply be hijacked for this purpose.

With those remarks, I welcome the opportunity to have this debate and to understand a little more about the thinking behind these proposals. However, I shall have to disappoint the hon. Member for Luton South by telling him that I will not be following him into the Lobby.

[Dan Rogerson]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hoyle. I follow the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), whom I customarily refer to as “Madam Chairman” in the Select Committee. Obviously, it is a delight still to be considering this Bill. We are doing so rapidly, in order to make progress and get it on the statute book, so that it can start delivering fairness for my constituents and those of other Members across Devon and Cornwall, and so that we can start putting in place the framework for the necessary works here in our capital.

Although the amendment and the new clause proposed by the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) present a number of opportunities for discussion, they will not necessarily take us that much further forward. The amendment makes a reasonable point: if in future the Secretary of State or any other Secretary of State wishes to use the enabling powers of the Bill to make a difference to another part of the country that seems to have been disadvantaged, that should be explained to the House. I would have thought that it would be extraordinary, however, for such a thing to happen without a great deal of public debate or decades of campaigning, such as that which we have experienced in Devon and Cornwall. Perhaps other parts of the country might have such a keen hold on the Secretary of State or any future Secretary of State that they could get it all pushed through within a matter of weeks, but I suspect that that would not be the case. The Treasury would want to know very plainly and in great detail why the money was required and why it was felt to be a priority.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

From a south-west perspective, the money we are getting is clearly welcome. As the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, other parts of the country might have demands, and given drought measures and so on, there might be reservoirs or other very large schemes in small areas that might impinge on us as our water bill payers could be asked to pay towards the costs. That would not be unreasonable, as we are expecting the payment to go the other way. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that, as the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) mentioned, the money is not ring-fenced and how it is spent in future will be at the discretion of the Secretary of State?

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Lady is referring to the money identified for the south-west, and the worry that it might, to use a watery phrase, be diluted and spread out across the country. I suspect that that could potentially happen, but I know that the coalition Government are absolutely committed to seeing this provision through for the people of Devon and Cornwall. Who knows what might happen under a future Government? I hope that they would take the plight of our water bill payers equally seriously and continue that level of support. The hon. Lady makes an interesting point.

As I understand it, the amendment seeks to ensure that if a Government wished to offer such support to further areas, a statutory instrument would have to be tabled and debated. I find it hard to believe that any Government would consider doing such a thing without a debate not only in this place but out in the country at large and, I am sure, a debate in the Treasury too, which would have to be conducted publicly as well as privately. I know that that has been the case with the programme we now have for Devon and Cornwall. Although I accept the logic of what the hon. Member for Luton South said, I will wait to hear what the Minister has to say in reply before I decide what approach to take. Naturally, I want to support the Government—as I would on every occasion, but particularly as regards the provisions in this Bill.

The new clause concerns social tariffs and the next steps that we might want to take to help people who are under water stress, which, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, will still be a significant problem for people in the south-west after the support set out in the Bill is delivered. Of course, water stress is also a worsening problem in other parts of the country.

I am delighted to see that the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) is in her place. On Second Reading, when we debated this subject, I intervened on her and made the point that any social tariff within a water company area presents problems as well as opportunities. If there is to be a social tariff at a significant level for those experiencing the worst problems in an area such as the south-west, despite the fact that many people will benefit we must be aware that within an area with a small population, a huge amount of the funding for the tariff will be provided by people just above the qualification threshold. I am very worried that in-region social tariffs will be unable to deal with the problem. When the hon. Lady set out where she would like the Bill to be improved, she said that she would do something about national water tariffs. It is a shame that we do not have such a provision and Devon and Cornwall MPs have put the matter before the Government. I understand that there are issues with the Treasury’s response, as that might be regarded as a tax, but we must consider how we can address that situation.

I do not see how a league table will help, however. Indeed, it might mean that water companies were under pressure to introduce the tables in such a way that it might disadvantage those people about whom I was talking—those just above the threshold who will not benefit from the tariff but whose water bills will increase to pay for their hard-pressed neighbours.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

My hon. Friend is making a very good point. At the risk of delaying the process of the Bill through the further elaboration on the amendments, does my hon. Friend agree that the best way of addressing the issue would be to seek the assurance of the Minister that the issue will be addressed in the forthcoming water Bill as quickly as possible after the Queen’s Speech?

[Dan Rogerson]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The water Bill will be a further opportunity for us to revisit these issues and I welcome the fact that hon. Members across the House are still considering this matter as one that needs further exploration.

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

I want to reply to the hon. Gentleman’s point about league tables. The idea came from Ofwat and is meant to ensure that there is transparent information for customers, shareholders and the Government so that they understand who is levelling the tariffs, where they are going and where the money is going. That was Ofwat’s idea and I cannot claim any credit for it, much as I would like to.

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Lady is very generous in ascribing the idea to Ofwat. I suspect that Ofwat could probably do that anyway and would not need legislation; if it wanted to publish a league table, it could get the information. Ofwat would have information from companies about where the money was coming from and where it was going and could publish it without that needing to be on the face of the Bill.

[Miss McIntosh]

I remind my hon. Friend that, as those on the Opposition Front Bench might not be aware, the Select Committee had some very compelling evidence from the water companies about social tariffs paid for by charitable trusts from each water company.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Rogerson]

I thank Madam Chairman—my hon. Friend—for putting that on the record. I am delighted that the Opposition Front Benchers support what the Bill seeks to do for bill payers in Devon and Cornwall and that they have chosen not to oppose it in any way. I do not think that the case is proven that either amendment 1 or new clause 1 will make a huge difference or improve the Bill significantly, but they do touch on two areas that I hope the Minister will address.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I call the Minister—

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hughes]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, Thames Water has a very complicated corporate structure: the graphic picture shows that there are about 10 layers of corporate entities. At the top are investors Macquarie—an Australian company—and the new Chinese investor that was recently announced when the Chancellor was in China, and there have been other acquisitions.

We must not prevent Thames Water and its holding company, and its holding companies, from obtaining money from external investors; indeed, we need to encourage that. However, we, the Government and Ofwat must ensure that we do not condone, particularly in relation to Kemble Water, which is the relevant driving company, and Macquarie, a practice that is unacceptable in two respects. First, it allows the company to pay out in dividends to its shareholders very large profits while not retaining the money that it needs for its capital investment, thereby forcing it to come to Government and, in turn, to the taxpayer, to underwrite something for which it should not have had to come to the taxpayer. Secondly, these processes should not result in our corporate sector avoiding the taxes that we would expect it to pay. One of the issues for next week’s Budget is the need to ensure that people, personally and corporately, who can afford to pay their due taxes do pay those taxes. There has recently been a pretty unpleasant history regarding Kemble, Macquarie and Thames Water whereby people have paid far less tax than the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster and I would believe to be acceptable. They have been using various onshore and offshore mechanisms to avoid tax liabilities involving money that should have come back into the Treasury to the general benefit of the taxpayer.

Ofwat has said that on the previous two occasions when it carried out price reviews, it assumed, for the purpose of setting price limits, a gearing within the range of 55% to 65%. It worked from that starting point, although it was simply an assumption for the purpose of price setting, not a requirement. My suggested figure is therefore also a starting point to see whether we should write in a figure that requires a balance between payment out of dividends and the retention of capital and earnings to ensure that there is no abuse of the relationship with the taxpayer, to the detriment of the consumer.

At the end of the day, this is about the level of water bills for people in the Thames Water area. The current projection is that as a result of the Thames tunnel project, bills will rise by about £80 a year indefinitely. I do not want Thames Water to charge every ratepayer roughly £80 a year extra and, at the same time, not pay much money into the Treasury by way of tax and indefinitely siphon off huge amounts of profits to national or extra-national investors while we are paying for something that we ultimately do not own. There are parallels in the history of the private finance initiative regarding public sector investment in projects where the money then goes off into the private sector. The M6 toll road, in which Macquarie had an interest, has not been a happy tale of investment benefiting taxpayer and users, with some people apparently creaming off the profit to the disadvantage of those taxpayers and users.

[Dan Rogerson]

My right hon. Friend has set out a number of measures relating to safeguarding public investment. Is it fair to say that he is seeking to bring a far greater level of transparency where matters are a little opaque, particularly because we might see an emerging relationship between private companies and levels of public subsidy, and that makes the need for transparency paramount?

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hughes]

That point is very helpful. I have raised this subject as a matter of general Government policy with my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, because it is not just an issue for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but an issue across Government and for the Treasury in particular. It is also a matter for the Public Accounts Committee, audit organisations and others. In a second, I will link the points that I have made with the PFI issue, which my hon. Friend just raised, and other places where we are spending public money on projects that are excessively encouraging or facilitating private gain to the disadvantage of the state and the taxpayer.

[Dan Rogerson]

My right hon. Friend is making some excellent points and shedding a little light on fairly shady areas of corporate restructuring. Sports fans are well aware of such things going on at their beloved sports clubs. He referred to Ofwat’s handling of the situation over a number of years. He has clearly raised the matter with the Department. In his scrutiny of these affairs, has he received any response from Ofwat on why it has not taken action up to now?

[Simon Hughes]

I have sought from Ofwat an explanation of its current policy. I have not sat down with Ofwat to go through what more it might do. I want to raise the matter here and see what colleagues think. There is a debate to be had about Ofwat and I hope that changes in what Ofwat does and how it behaves will come out of it. These issues also relate to other regulators, such as those for gas and electricity. This is an issue about regulators and private utilities.

The Secretary of State kindly replied to me, as the Minister knows. I will quote the key points from her letter that responds to the issues that I have raised in Committee. The first matter relates to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George):

“I would first like to point out that it may not be Thames Water Utilities Limited who carry out the project. We have consulted on provisions that would enable the project to be delivered by a separate Infrastructure Provider to be regulated by Ofwat separately from Thames Water Utilities Limited. Any contingent financial support will be directed at assisting the entity that is building the Tunnel—and so not necessarily Thames Water Utilities Limited.”

I understand that. It does not change things, but it is important to realise that although Thames Water may be the supplicant, it may not be Thames Water that does the building.

The Secretary of State continued:

“The level of gearing and the securitised structure of Thames Water Utilities Limited is similar to that of some other water companies. Our and Ofwat’s analysis shows that contingent financial support from government would be required for Thames Water Utilities Limited (or any other water company) to build a single project of the scale and complexity of the Tunnel whatever its financial structure (within the norms for water companies).”

I do not dispute that. I am not denying that this is a very big project, or that it may need the reassurance that comes from being supported nationally, rather than just being the project of a regional water company.

The Secretary of State went on:

“Our goal is to ensure that the level of this contingent financial support is kept to a minimum and that we achieve best value for money for customers.”

Amen to both of those things. We all have the same objectives. She continued:

“It is in that context that we are considering whether the Tunnel should be built by the Thames Water Utilities Limited or a separate entity.”

The Secretary of State then discusses the question of where Ofwat’s rules currently bite. She states:

“Ofwat regulates each water and sewerage company in England and Wales under the terms of its Instrument of Appointment…The licence contains conditions aimed at ensuring that each water and sewerage company has sufficient financial and managerial resources to carry out its functions and that the regulated company is operated separately from the rest of the group.”

That is quite important. She continues:

“These licence conditions are collectively known as the regulatory ring-fence.

It is Ofwat’s view that it is for the management of each regulated water company to determine its own optimal financial structure.”

Within limits, I do not dissent from that, but it seems to me that Ofwat is there to hold the reins properly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Rogerson]

It is a great pleasure for those of us from the south-west to be talking about some measure of help for our constituents who have laboured for a long time under an unfair burden of very high bills. That is a legacy given to them by privatisation, which has hardly been mentioned without the word “botched” in front of it, certainly in the case of Government Members, but also Labour Members; I am delighted that they have followed the same pattern.

Two great injustices were done to my constituents at the time of water privatisation in the late 1980s and early ’90s. The second one, sadly, has become topical in the context of this debate.

The first injustice, as I have said, was the lack of a sufficient green dowry to deal with the huge cost of cleaning up the sewage along the beautiful coastline of Devon and Cornwall. That work has been done and has been funded by the bill payers of the south-west, through extra debts taken on by the company. We have praised the steps that the management of the company have taken in recent years to engage with the Government, Members of Parliament and their customers to get to where we are today. I would also like to pay tribute to former Members of this House who are not here to blow their own trumpet, although I am sure that they would be too modest to do so anyway. Linda Gilroy has been mentioned. I would also like to mention Julia Goldsworthy, the former Member for Falmouth and Camborne, who did a great deal both inside and outside this place to advance this cause.

The second injustice followed the incident in July 1988 in which 20 tonnes of aluminium sulphate was dumped into the water at the Lowermoor water treatment works. For about a fortnight, 20,000 residents in that part of North Cornwall were unaware that they were drinking a potentially poisonous cocktail. The aluminium sulphate generated acids that flushed out everything else in the pipes and it was in the water supply for many days. My predecessor, Lord Tyler, campaigned for a full inquiry into that issue before he was elected to this place and afterwards. The right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), when he was a Minister, at least commissioned a committee to look into the issue.

I am grateful for your forbearance, Mr Deputy Speaker, in allowing me to raise this matter today. The reason I do so is that Michael Rose, the West Somerset coroner, has issued a narrative verdict today on the sad death of Mrs Carole Cross in 2004. Her husband, Doug Cross, was one of the members of the committee, along with Peter Smith, a lay member who was from the area and experienced the incident. Doug Cross has been a tireless campaigner on behalf of the people who were affected by the incident. It is tragic that he lost his wife.

The coroner’s verdict today was that there was a “very real possibility” that the ingestion of aluminium contributed to the death of Mrs Cross. He also criticised the South West Water board for

“gambling with as many as 20,000 lives”

by not telling people about the incident for a fortnight. There was also evidence, thanks mostly to the work of Lord Tyler, the Western Morning News and others over the years, of a cover-up at the time of privatisation. The coroner said that it was “deeply suspicious” that the incident was handled in the way it was, due to the impending privatisation.

People in North Cornwall and elsewhere will want to reflect on what the coroner has said today. However, I believe that the many people who have been arguing for years in the face of the response from Government that what they experienced did not really happen and that the medical consequences were all in their minds will feel that there is some real progress. I hope that we will now start to get the answers that people should have had at the time of privatisation. I hope that the way in which the Minister and his colleagues have today dealt with the injustice of the inadequate green dowry will be matched by a proper inquiry into and discussion of the incidents following the pollution of the water at Lowermoor in 1988.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

Clearly, I am delighted that the Bill has been introduced. I would have liked to have seen it some time ago and I am very pleased that the coalition Government have responded to the call from people in the south-west for a measure of support towards the incredibly high costs that they pay for their water—or, more accurately, for the disposal of their sewage, as that is what we are talking about. We talk about water bills, and as a generic term I suppose that is fair enough, but in reality we are talking about the cost of dealing with sewage. As we heard from the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), that is clearly an issue in other parts of the country, too. This is very much a Bill of two parts and I shall not seek to comment on the question of what is required in London, other than to say that I sympathise with London MPs who see the costs that their constituents will pay in the future. Whatever scheme we use, and, clearly, the hon. Gentleman thinks that this is the right scheme, there will be greater costs for their water—or sewage—bill payers. From a south-west perceptive—that is, from a Cornish and Devonian perspective—people have been paying these bills for a long time, as we have heard. They are not worried about the future; they have been dealing with this problem since privatisation and, as we have heard, it goes back to the way in which the water industry was privatised.

My speech is somewhat timely. I shall not seek to comment in detail on the inquest that has just reopened in Taunton, but we need to remember just how controversial the process of privatisation and how it was undertaken were. The water poisoning incident at Lowermoor in my constituency still concerns people today and I shall follow with interest the outcome of the inquest into the death of Mrs Cross and the question of whether information was withheld from people as privatisation was introduced.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

On the broader, rather than the narrow, point, may I say that those of us with London seats do not try to make the case that our bills are as high as those for people in the south-west and have always argued for a better deal for them? Any argument about the Bill, for us, concerns part 2 and the terms and conditions under which the Government might support Thames Water with any funding for big projects.

[Dan Rogerson]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Bill offers opportunities for other parts of the country in that if the Secretary of State felt subsequently that measures should be put in place to look after the interests of water bill payers—or sewage bill payers—in other regions, the Bill would allow them to do that. That is very welcome to all parties.

Let me return to my point about privatisation in the south-west. I do not have the figures to hand about whether much of a receipt was realised at the time, but, clearly, the liabilities companies were being asked to take on were quite high. I suspect that some income was coming into the Treasury at the time of privatisation and a small “green dowry”, as it was called, was provided to the south-west to deal with the recognised cost of clearing up the woeful underinvestment in sewage treatment around a very long peninsula. If a fairer assessment of the real picture had been undertaken at that time, bill payers in the south-west could have been spared a great deal of hardship. It is worth putting on the record that more account could have been taken of the situation at the time. Rather than everything being rushed through, there could have been a better deal at that point that more fairly reflected the burden being placed on my constituents and those of other hon. Members in Devon and Cornwall.

Members from other parts of the country have said to me, “Well, you live in that wonderful part of the world and have that coastline. You enjoy it, so you’ve got to pay for it.” They should try saying that to a young person living with their family in the ward in which I live and in which I spent the early part of my life, St Mary’s ward in Bodmin, which is one of the most deprived wards in the south-west. I would venture to suggest that a young person growing up in that ward might well spend far less time on the beaches of Cornwall than people from other constituencies who come down and visit, or than those who are fortunate enough to own a second home in my constituency that is very close to the beach. My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) has already discussed the costs sometimes involved in connecting water and sewerage systems to isolated and remote properties, which may be unoccupied and have low water bills because they are on meters. Those costs are borne by people living inland, on the peninsula, who probably do not get the benefit of going to the coast very often.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

rose—

[Dan Rogerson]

I suspect we will hear more about people in Plymouth who are in that situation.

[Alison Seabeck]

Actually, I rose to talk not about people in Plymouth but about the additional costs that the water company has had to bear of placing pumping stations in places that will not spoil tourists’ views of a harbour or a beach. That is certainly the case in some places in Cornwall. People do not see those costs but South West Water bill payers have been burdened with them.

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Lady makes an excellent point, and we can set that against the background of what others have said in this debate and in our previous debate on this. People in our part of the world have low incomes and comparatively high housing costs—not as high as those of constituents here in London, but much higher than in the north-west or the north-east. When combined with a low income, those costs are a significant pressure on people’s spending power.

I am delighted that the coalition Government have recognised that this problem needs to be dealt with, but it is not easy. The previous Government looked at the issue for some time and I pay tribute to those who have previously campaigned on this, including many Members who are still in the House. Members from my party and some Conservative Members, as well as Linda Gilroy, who was very useful to have involved, along with the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) and the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), all helped to put pressure on the then Labour Government to take action. We got as far as getting the Walker review, so I suppose we should be grateful for that.

[Alison Seabeck]

Before the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) leaves the Chamber—oh no, he has gone—I wanted to draw attention to something he said earlier about the problem being partly due to the fact that there were only three Labour MPs in the south-west. Clearly, it is about quality, not quantity, but on that premise, given that we have a very large number of MPs from the Government parties in the area now, I assume that everything we want in the south-west will happen. That was a little churlish because the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) is right that there was complete cross-party effort on this.

[Dan Rogerson]

I think we can point to the time before the Labour Government, during the early days of the privatised industry, when, although there was a preponderance of MPs in the area from the Government party, we did not get anything. We have to recognise that there has been a problem and that it is being dealt with to some extent.

The company still has work to do, so we are not looking at a static position. We are looking at the fact that, as the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr Offord) said in his excellent contribution in our previous debate on this issue, raw sewage is still being washed out. That happens in London, as the hon. Member for Hammersmith has described, and in coastal locations such as Trevone, which I mentioned in an intervention. Water companies argue that that is a very rare event, happening two or three times a year, but the statistics show that it happens far more than that. Rainfall patterns are changing and development patterns have changed. We have, fortunately, got some affordable housing and market housing built in some of those communities, but that has added to the burden on the sewerage systems, which are just not up to the job. South West Water still has work to do and it also has to take responsibility for taking over the private sewerage systems. I welcome that change, but it will add to the costs going forward. The measures are long overdue and will, I hope, help to offset some of the burden on bill payers.

I have some concerns about the debt model that has been agreed between Ofwat and the water companies. The debt that has been taken on over previous decades to provide infrastructure is not being paid off to any significant degree. Under the debt model, those loans are repackaged periodically.

The water companies and Ofwat argue that that is a great deal because it keeps the cost of borrowing down—if we were to start to pay off these things now, we would put bills up even higher. I see that, but I am concerned that, essentially, we are saying that the Government’s sensible proposal will have to continue for ever, because we will never, ever pay off some of the significant debt that has been arrived at to put in the infrastructure. I hope that Ofwat will continue to look at the issue, because my constituents come to me and say, “At least we must have paid off a lot of this money by now and we must be getting to the point where the bills will start to go down.” No we are not, because the debt is constantly repackaged. That issue perhaps needs to be examined.

Hon. Members have talked about national WaterSure, or social tariffs. I know that the advice from the Treasury is that that effectively amounts to a tax—we need to examine that—but any scheme that seeks to help those who are struggling the most ought to do so regardless of where those people live. Even after the welcome investment in tackling inequality in bills across the country, people in my constituency and in other constituencies across Devon and Cornwall—because of low income, high housing costs, and high water and sewage costs—will still be worse off than people in other parts of the country.

I accept that other hon. Members will say, “Come on, you are getting this and surely you must be satisfied with it,” but I will be satisfied when I think there is a fair deal for people in my constituency and in neighbouring constituencies. As I said in a Westminster Hall debate earlier this year—or perhaps at the end of last year; memory fails me—I hope that we reconsider having some sort of national tariff. If measures are kept within region, the pressure on the other bill payers will be so high that those measures will not be allowed to be significant enough to meet the need.

We also need to keep a close eye on the profits of the water companies. In an excellent contribution to the first part of the Second Reading debate, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) mentioned the sometimes arcane business models and the layers of companies that manage to pass on significant dividends. Ofwat could do more to look at the profits there. As my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives said, the leadership at South West Water is far better than it was and those people have engaged hugely with the campaign to deliver on this issue. They are being open and realistic about what is achievable, but all water companies need to consider the contribution that they, too, could make to perhaps providing a more generous WaterSure or social tariff scheme. We need to be vigilant about that.

[George Eustice]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that another shortcoming of the WaterSure tariff is the fact that it is available only to those who are on meters? That is good if it encourages people to go on to a meter, but there is a problem with blocks of flats where it is not practical for people to go on to a meter. Some of those people are in temporary rented accommodation, and it is not their call whether they go on to a meter.

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and we might be talking about some of the people who are worst off, because they live in smaller flats or houses in multiple occupation. I hope that as the Government move forward with their review of water policy they will consider whether any resource could be put into finding technological solutions to overcome those problems. At a time when we are considering smart metering and all sorts of things to do with energy, there must surely be a solution that allows metering for all water consumers, no matter where they are. A small investment, perhaps in that, or some encouragement to companies that might be coming up with such ideas, would help to deal with the issue. The sooner we can get everybody on to a meter, the sooner we will take the burden from those who, thus far, have been unable to take advantage of metering. The hon. Gentleman makes a strong point.

I should perhaps conclude by returning to the issue of fairness and who these measures are designed to help. South West Water feels strongly that it would like to see help for small businesses—it is concerned about that. I sympathise with that point of view, although we have to be realistic about how much money there is, and therefore about the support that will be available to residential customers if businesses are covered as well. It is difficult to distinguish between the smaller and the larger businesses, some of which are national and quite profitable. They would see a benefit that was nothing to them, but which would suck up money that could go to a residential customer down the road.

Second homes are an issue, as one might expect me to say. The Government’s proposals contain a careful appraisal to make sure that nobody gets £50 off their bill if they are currently paying less than £50, or we would be giving them money. I suspect that many in that category are people on water meters who are not using much water because the property is empty much of the time, as a second home. If, as the Bill moves beyond Second Reading, anything more could be done to examine the issue and make sure that it targets people who live in the area and pay higher water bills, I would welcome that.

I am delighted that the Government are moving on the matter at last. I hope they continue to examine ways in which we could help the very poorest consumers through social tariffs. I congratulate the Minister on tiptoeing through the various minefields surrounding the subject and coming up with the Bill that we are debating. I look forward to it making progress and becoming an Act.

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mary Creagh]

I am happy to say that we will not vote against the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman waits, I will come on to some of the wider affordability issues and will, I hope, answer some of his questions on the wider issues.

The next unanswered question is: why are we debating the Bill now? We know that the Government ran out of meaningful new legislative business about two months ago, and the House has been surviving on thin rations—a meagre diet of one-line-Whip business and Back-Bench business debates, valuable though they are. There was no new Government legislation, but suddenly—boom!—out of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, a Department whose Ministers are the embodiment of clout, grip and competence, spurted a sudden, short water Bill, born of the realisation that if the Department has lost its slot in May’s Queen’s Speech, it had better deliver on the Chancellor’s promises to the south-west and his coalition partners. That happened just six short weeks before the end of one of the longest parliamentary Sessions ever held. Clearly, such a masterstroke of parliamentary planning and timing could have been confected only by the Department that brought us the forest sell-off.

Labour in government corrected many of the injustices of water privatisation. As I said, in 2000 we banned water companies from cutting off the water supply of homes, schools and hospitals for non-payment. It is extraordinary to think that legislators would allow provisions that let hospitals—care givers and providers of sanitation—be cut off for non-payment of bills. We allowed for compulsory metering in areas of scarcity, and a more muscular Ofwat, holding the water companies to account, has emerged in recent years.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Mary Creagh]

I will make some progress, and then I will give way. Where specific issues required careful consideration, we brought in experts to advise us. We commissioned the Pitt report after the 2007 floods, the Cave report to look at competition and innovation, and the Walker report, which analysed water charging and looked explicitly at the problem of high bills in the south-west. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) legislated for water companies to introduce social tariffs in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. I shall now examine each of those issues in turn.

Some have questioned why the Tory and Lib Dem Government wanted to extend £40 million a year in financial assistance to a region dominated by Tories and Lib Dems. I will leave others to speculate about the politics, but it is clear that customers in the south-west face bills that are, on average, 43% higher than in other areas. That is why we examined the issue in government and did the groundwork on helping those 700,000 households. I pay tribute to colleagues in all parts of the House, and to our former colleague, Linda Gilroy, for their work on the issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mary Creagh]

I thank my hon. Friend for that clarification. It is clear that much work was done in the south-west because it has the highest penetration of WaterSure customers and the highest rate of metered households, despite the fact that water is plentiful in the south-west, so it has nothing to do with scarcity. It has to do with people making a rational economic choice and understanding that if they move to metered bills, their costs will go down.

The Government should be using existing data about benefits to ensure that everyone who is eligible is on the WaterSure tariff. I hope we have described the heavy lifting that we did on that tariff. Last year the Government consulted on taking on the costs of WaterSure and absorbing them at a cost to the Exchequer of £10 million a year, as opposed to continuing the cross-subsidy. This idea was dropped from the water White Paper. What has happened to that notional £10 million? Why is it not being used to part-fund company social tariffs or a wider tariff to help the wider population?

Londoners will see their bills rise by £70 to £80 a year when the Thames tunnel is finished in, we hope, 2020. London has some of the poorest people in the country and a significant number living in water poverty. WaterSure will not help most of them. It is imperative that company social tariffs are introduced well before the Thames tunnel is completed to minimise the financial impact on Londoners, yet the Government’s draft guidance on company social tariffs shows that they are adopting a minimalist approach.

The Government have ruled out data sharing, which is key to helping water companies identify customers in water poverty and enabling them automatically to reduce their bill, which is obviously the least painful way, rather than allowing people to get into water debt and then taking action through the courts to pursue the money. They have ruled out an affordability scheme administered nationally, and they have ruled out an extension of WaterSure, which is the only national social tariff. Under DEFRA’s draft guidance, the design of social tariff schemes is left entirely to the water companies. Indeed, it is their choice whether to implement a scheme at all. This is the big society in action: a postcode lottery for millions of customers facing water poverty. We believe that it is untenable for the Government to pass a water financial assistance Bill without providing any assistance to the rest of the country. We will pursue amendments that would oblige water companies to deliver a social tariff scheme that meets clear and uniform criteria.

[Dan Rogerson]

On the question of how WaterSure will be funded and placing obligations on companies, if we have a funded social tariff in the south-west, it will have a disproportionate effect on the other bill payers who are paying into the pot. More work needs to be done before we start pushing regions down the route of having generous social tariffs, because we need to know what costs are being loaded on to other bill payers in the region.

[Mary Creagh]

That is an excellent point. That is why we were interested in the Government’s consultation, which talked about a national affordability scheme and offered the potential to absorb the costs of WaterSure. I hope that the Minister will offer some clarity on that in his closing speech, and I am sure that we can work together on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Offord]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am probably aware who he is citing, and, having had conversations with the former leader of Hammersmith and Fulham council, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we do not agree on this subject, though we may agree on many others.

The super-sewer in London is essential to ensure that the UK complies with European environmental standards and, most particularly, the urban waste water treatment directive. All British taxpayers are at risk of having to fund hefty EU fines if the UK is confirmed to be in breach of that directive.

It is not just London and Thames Water that need to take action, however. All water companies have a contract with their consumers not only to provide them with clean water, but to remove their sewage and to treat it responsibly, but that is not happening. The water quality of Britain’s beaches is being jeopardised by thousands of unregulated overflow pipes that dump raw sewage into coastal waters and rivers. It has been estimated that 3,500 pipes operated by water companies pump unlimited amounts of raw sewage into more than 80 rivers and along sections of our coastline. That comprises more than 60 operated by South West Water, including pipes on the River Torridge, which flows to a popular Devon beach; more than 250 outlets operated by Yorkshire Water, including sewage flowing into the North sea; sewage overflows on the River Don, where thousands of fish were killed by sewage pollution in 2006; and an overflow, operated by United Utilities near Manchester, which was blamed for polluting a fishery in 2005.

[Dan Rogerson]

The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case for the need to be mindful at all times of how outdated sewerage systems can cause problems. People may be more accepting of occasional discharges during periods of very high rainfall, but he knows north Cornwall well, and if he considers the area of Trevone he may wish to look again at South West Water’s record on delivering its promises, because in that area discharges have been occurring several times a month, and the company has yet to take action. I have raised that issue with South West Water, and we hope to address it soon, but he is absolutely right that there is a problem not just here in London, but throughout the country.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is a worrying pattern developing whereby the erudition of interventions is equalled only by their length.

Bovine TB

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

When a programme of badger control was part of the original randomised badger culling trial, the science showed a clear reduction within the controlled area, and an impact on the edge of the area. We have proposed to build on that science base and grant licences to areas with more firmly controlled boundaries to reduce the perturbation effect. It is indisputable that the original trial saw, on average, a 16% reduction in the incidence of TB in cattle herds.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

The Secretary of State has quite rightly set out the sad decision that has had to be taken on this issue. She has also made it clear that the decision is based on the scientific evidence that was provided by the trials. Ongoing monitoring has shown there to be a lasting effect and that perturbation is only temporary. None the less, there will be those who, understandably, will have an emotional response to this issue. They may be inflamed by people in this House and elsewhere who are somewhat removed from the problem. Will she undertake to carry out as much publicity as she can and to work with organisations such as the British Veterinary Association to make the case for those who have an instinctive response and have not had the opportunity to consider the issues?

[Mrs Spelman]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I understand that this issue excites strong emotions, but for those who feel strongly about it I point to the Farm Crisis Network report, which shows the devastating emotional cost to the farmers who lose their cattle. It is probably right at this point to pay tribute to the work done by Adam Henson and “Countryfile” to make members of the public more aware of the cost to farmers of the slaughter of their animals as well as of the impact on wildlife.

Water Bills (South West)

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Westminster Hall

10.59 am

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Crausby, and I am very grateful for the opportunity to cover this particular topic. It will not be for the first time, I must say. Those who have sat in your position over the years have seen many debates secured by Members from our part of the world on this huge issue for our constituents: very high water bills.

We have moved on a little since we last met. I recall being here in March for a debate secured my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders), at which point we were still looking at how the responses to the Walker review of 2009 would come forward. We now have a concrete response from the coalition Government, about which I am delighted. Politicians are always looking out for our constituents, so there are one or two things I want to ask the Minister later, particularly about social tariffs and WaterSure, but I would like to start off the debate by congratulating the Department and the Minister’s colleagues across Government for the contributions they have made.

It bears repeating why we are in this situation and what the experience of our constituents has been in Devon, Cornwall and the west of Somerset and Dorset over the past couple of decades since privatisation. At the time of privatisation, there was an aspiration on the part of the Conservative Government to see private investment coming in to develop infrastructure that had been neglected. There is no doubt that it had been neglected for decades, but there was huge concern at the time from those who could not see how competition could work in a sector where there was one main supplier and one main company dealing with waste. That has been an issue, in that no sort of market emerged, unlike in other privatised industries.

The key question for us in the South West Water area was one of infrastructure. The company was able to do a huge amount, both to deal with the environmental legacy that it was left and to meet the requirements set by the Government and the European Union. We welcome that, of course. Organisations such as Surfers Against Sewage, which has been around and done fantastic environmental work over the years, were at the forefront of holding Government and industry to account to deliver on their commitments and obligations. While we have seen progress, investment can only be secured against an income stream. The company had to seek that investment—get investment from shareholders and go to the markets for money—on the basis of an income stream.

In Cornwall and south-west England, we have seen a huge legacy of environmental works that need to be carried out, to a far greater degree than any other part of the country. I refer to the fact that the population of Cornwall accounts for 3% of the population of England, but we have 30% of the coastline. That is an easy way to illustrate the scale of the problem; we have a large amount of work to do, but a relatively small population to pay for it, despite the fact that the coastline is a national treasure, if you like. It is enjoyed by people from across the country who come to take advantage of it. We have the south-west coast path and all sorts of attractions for people to come to enjoy the beaches and countryside of Cornwall and Devon, but we have not had a way to capture a contribution from those people towards the maintenance of infrastructure. It falls to people living closer to that national asset to pay for the whole lot.

There has been some concern in the press recently about the policy of contribution outlined in the Budget and referred to in the autumn statement, and the money set aside to help in this regard. There was an article in The Times last week, in which there were rumblings from other parts of the country about how unfair this was. I do not think that that unfairness exists; this is a much fairer solution to a problem that people in my constituency and those neighbouring it have experienced for a couple of decades. There is still, however, a lack of understanding. We have perhaps not made a big enough effort at national level to get across to those who are concerned in other parts of the country just why there is a desperate need.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

First, I congratulate my hon. Friend on having secured this important debate. I would like to congratulate the Government and welcome the announcement in the autumn statement yesterday, although I have to say that it was a 20-year ask. My hon. Friend referred to WaterSure and the social tariff. Does he agree that the statement yesterday does not mean that we should not also make a strong case for an equitable outcome with regard to the future statement on WaterSure and the social tariff when the water White Paper comes out next week?

[Dan Rogerson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Earlier, I hinted that I would return to that, and of course he understands that further questions remain, which, if settled fairly and equitably, could ensure that the contribution set aside in the Budget has the maximum impact, and that none of its benefits are lost through unintended consequences with regard to tariff schemes.

[Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and would like to add my thanks to the Government for what is undoubtedly a great contribution to our household bills. Is my hon. Friend expressing concern that, while that is a good first step, we want to ensure that the benefit is not eroded by future changes? There is the prospect of further EU directives impacting on the cost of preserving our beaches.

[Dan Rogerson]

We must always have an eye on those sorts of costs and look at any other measures that the Government introduce to deal with the emerging issue of water poverty, which is unfortunately catching up in other parts of England and Wales. Any measures to tackle that should not undermine the good done in the recent announcement.

The time of privatisation in the late 1980s was particularly fraught in my constituency, because it coincided with a water poisoning incident at the Lowermoor treatment works, which is still controversial today. A link was drawn between the fact that there was no inquiry into the incident at the time and the fact that privatisation was under way. I must say that that feeling still exists in the minds of many who feel that they may have been affected by that incident. There is an ongoing inquest in Taunton that is finally getting to the bottom of some of those questions. I pay tribute to Doug Cross for all the work that he and his fellow campaigners have done on that issue over the years.

We then moved into the period when it became apparent that all of this work needed to be done. It was done, and there have been huge improvements in water quality, with benefits to the local community and people from further afield who can come and enjoy our wonderful environment. After the departure of the last Conservative Government, we moved into the period of the Labour Government. I pay tribute to Linda Gilroy, a former Member who campaigned a lot on this issue. It was very helpful to have one Member on the Labour side—they were few and far between, and it is even further between in the south-west now—and she very much engaged with this, and was seeking a response.

Right at the end of the previous Government we had the Walker review. At the last gasp of their term in office, they finally had that review. I must say, however, that we had the feeling at the time that there was not going to be the kind of response that we wanted to hear, in terms of national recognition of this problem. We wanted the recognition that it needed to be handled at that level rather than by the relatively small population in the area. I was frustrated by the attitude of Ofwat in all of this. They could have played a much stronger role in advocating to the Government on the issue of unfairness and the problems it causes for bill payers and the industry in the south-west.

We move on, however, and we now have a coalition Government who put their determination to do something about this in the coalition agreement. I pay tribute to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on the Liberal Democrat side, and to the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin) on the Conservative side. I know that both of them are determined to work with DEFRA to deliver on this and ensure that that commitment is met. However, with the very welcome £50 contribution towards each household’s domestic bills in the South West Water area, there are further decisions to be taken around WaterSure, which is a scheme that helps people who are in the most need with their bills. It is funded by a form of cross-subsidy from billpayers. The crucial question is whether that subsidy is a within-region subsidy, or whether it is a national one.

I have heard the view that it should just be within the water company’s area. However, that is a dangerous road to go down, for the following reasons. First, I believe that it should be about meeting need, wherever that need may be. Even after this £50 contribution to high water bills per household in the south-west, we will still have the highest water bills in the country, by some way. If we compare the average £517 annual charge in the south-west—and that is the average, of course; those who are unmetered will have a much higher charge—with the Thames Water figure of £319, we see that there is a £219 difference. The £50 will close that gap a bit, but it will still be considerable.

I accept that that is as far as the Government could go with that measure of financial support in the Budget. However, for customers still struggling with those high water charges, WaterSure is a lifeline. For those who are just above that threshold, as always, we have this issue. It would be unjust, having at last secured recognition and support from the Government, to see some of that £50 clawed back in a significant way to fund WaterSure, and also further in regional social tariffs, which is something that water companies are exploring.

South West Water have really engaged in this process. As a private company, it is a tricky thing for it to do; confronting the fact that it has the highest bills is perhaps something it does not want to talk about. However, I pay tribute to Chris Loughlin and the management of the company, who have been absolutely straightforward about the fact that this is the problem they are facing. They want a solution, and they want to play their part in driving forward efficiencies in the business. They were honest about the situation that we face.

South West Water also want to do more with social tariffs. However, the issue for the company is that if we were to have WaterSure funded only within the South West Water area, that would mean that every bill payer who is not on WaterSure would be paying approximately £3.41 towards those who are, whereas across the country the average funding for WaterSure on bills—I am sure the Minister will correct me if I get this wrong—is 30p to 40p. That is a far fairer way of dealing with the issue. Just because someone happens to live in the south-west, they should not be affected by these social tariffs to a greater degree than people elsewhere. The need for people to be on social tariffs in the South West Water area is much higher than in other parts of the country, because the bills are higher, but also because, despite what some might feel about the leafy south-west, it is an area of great poverty. My own region of Cornwall is in receipt of convergence money from the European Union in recognition of the fact that, sadly, our economy still has some way to go to catch up with the wider UK economy.

Another parallel that could be drawn is the issue of additionality. It was always a battle under the previous regional development agency regime to say that, just because we are getting the convergence money, we should not miss out on our fair share of the regional development agency’s money as well. It is supposed to be additional, to help us get to parity with everybody else. This £50, welcome though it is and a tribute to how the coalition Government is tackling these problems, should be in addition to WaterSure and social tariffs that come along. It is not a replacement for them. While the Minister’s Department is looking further at how these social tariffs could play a role in meeting that need, my key point today, in thanking the Minister and the Government for what they have done for our constituents with this £50 assistance, is to ask that when we return to the issue of WaterSure and social tariffs, we should, as far as possible, make them fair and focused on individuals, no matter where they are in the country, rather than being in some kind of fortress south-west, because we would then be taking a step back, having made a step forward. I would hate the Government to be doing that when they are at last making great progress on an issue which has been a huge problem for us over the past two decades.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) on introducing this debate in an extremely timely manner. Perhaps if it was this time yesterday he would have been extolling the Government to take yet more action, and I am very glad that we were able to deliver. It has been a feature of Parliamentary life that when two or more south-west MPs are gathered together, the issue of water charges is raised, and as the Minister responsible, I am well aware of its importance to a huge number of his and other hon. Friends’ constituents in various constituencies across the south-west.

This is a really important issue for those people, and I recognise the important point that my hon. Friend made at the end: welcome as the measure is, he and other Members from all parts of the House will continue to push on this issue until they feel that greater parity has been achieved in water charges. As he knows, the average water and sewerage bill for household customers across England and Wales is £356, but the average for South West Water, before we implement these changes, is £517. He and other hon. Members will have dealt with cases of constituents, many of them in extremely straitened circumstances, whose bills are considerably higher. I recognise that this is an ongoing discussion and one that I am keen to continue to have with hon. Members across the south-west.

I am delighted that the Government were able to announce details of support for customers of South West Water in the autumn statement yesterday. Every South West Water household bill, as my hon. Friend says, will be reduced by £50 a year. That follows the commitment made in the Budget earlier this year to use public expenditure to support households facing high bills. The Government had to act. In her review, Anna Walker identified the fact that households in the south-west of England faced the highest water bills in the country, because at the time of privatisation, South West Water had the lowest levels of infrastructure required to protect drinking water quality and safeguard the wonderful environment that my hon. Friend so accurately described. This was the biggest challenge facing any water company at privatisation and in the 20 years that have elapsed since then, South West Water has invested around £2 billion to raise sewerage standards to the same level as elsewhere.

Local people have benefited though improved water quality, reduced leakage, cleaner beaches and bathing water, but—and it is a very big but—the cost has been met by those customers. The Government recognise that circumstances faced by customers of South West Water are exceptional and unfair. We are now addressing this historic issue and will contribute to the cost of reducing bills. We looked very closely at Anna Walker’s recommendations, and that was a feature of the debate that my hon. Friend secured some months ago in this Chamber. We decided that each household customer should receive an annual discount on their water bill. I am very grateful to all the south-west MPs who have doggedly raised this issue and demanded action. It is in the hon. Gentleman’s character to be big enough to recognise the input from Members of all parties and, of course, to Linda Gilroy, who raised this question in her time in the House.

This is a fairness measure: a payment to all South West Water household customers to redress an historic unfairness. This debate comes just ahead of the water White Paper, of which a key theme is affordability. South-west MPs have often raised with me and my predecessors individual cases of people in their constituencies who really struggle to afford their bills. Thankfully, even before yesterday’s announcement, South West Water had taken action to address the region’s particular set of circumstances and to tackle affordability problems. The company has a free debt helpline that helps customers to set up payment plans, it offers water metering and water conservation advice, and it recognises that many people are able to reduce their bills and to use water more efficiently by having a water meter.

I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall about Chris Loughlin and his team. I have worked closely with them, and they have an absolute and genuine determination to address the issues. South West Water works with local citizens advice bureaux and other experts, and it has introduced a range of initiatives to help those who find it difficult to pay their bills. It has established an advice gateway with south-west citizens advice bureaux and it trains and sponsors CAB debt advisers. Advice agencies such as the CAB can refer struggling customers to the company’s water care scheme and can obtain benefit entitlement checks, tariff checks, water efficiency advice and free efficiency devices.

South West Water also has a scheme for customers who are in debt, and I am very impressed by that work. I have been into households with advisers and seen the impact that they can have on the bills paid by people on low incomes just by installing a very few items or by changing those people’s behaviour, including what they do and how they use water throughout the day. That can have an enormous effect on household bills, but I recognise that, in this context, it might still be only a relatively small proportion of bills. In doing that, South West Water and companies with similar schemes have recognised the benefits to customers, and also to the company. I applaud such schemes, which are designed by water companies to tackle local problems in their region. Many companies in other Members’ constituencies have similar excellent schemes.

Water affordability problems are not confined to the south-west. Across England and Wales, 23% of households spend more than 3% of their disposable income on water and sewerage charges. Some 2.5 million households are spending more than 5% of their disposable income on water. That is a very important issue and one that the Government take very seriously. That is why water affordability will be a key theme in the upcoming water White Paper. We will commit ourselves to a long-term and a short-term set of actions to ensure that water bills are affordable.

WaterSure, to which my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall referred, will continue. It will be supported by social tariffs, which will enable water companies to design locally appropriate schemes. We believe WaterSure is really important, but we recognise that its criteria mean that it deals only with families who have a relatively large number of children—three or more—or with elderly or infirm people who require more water because of their circumstances. I have been persuaded by the many moving cases that have been put to me by colleagues about the circumstances of particular constituents.

I recognise the importance of WaterSure in addressing the concerns of those individuals, but I also recognise that about 50,000 people are currently claiming. WaterSure can therefore only ever help a small group of people in water need. That is why company social tariffs, on which we are consulting, are so important. When the consultation ends in January, we will quickly announce the guidelines for those enormously important tariffs.

[Dan Rogerson]

The Minister is being very helpful. On the groups who are covered by WaterSure, the south-west not only has many people on low incomes, but it has an ageing demographic because of the huge inward migration of older people and the outward migration of younger people. If WaterSure could be established with a national coverage, it would ensure that when people spend their active working life in another water region of the country and then end up in the south-west—I hope, to live a happy and long life in retirement—we had a fairer distribution of the cost. Otherwise, that will all have to be funded within the region.

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. However, the other important point to note is that the fact that the south-west has a much higher percentage of households on meters is good for those particular people, because they very often use much less water than larger families or households in multiple occupancy. That offers a really effective way not only of paying proportionally lower bills, but of managing problems—for example, they will know much sooner, if they are on a meter, if there is a leak. I applaud the work done by the company. We want to see such work developed not only in the south-west but elsewhere, and we will encourage that.

Bovine TB

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Spelman]

The locations will be made public, but the identities of those contracted to undertake the operation will not, for their own safety.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

In the last Parliament, as a member of the Select Committee, I welcomed the report that we published which, having looked at the evidence, decided that the approach that the Secretary of State has set out would be beneficial. Some members of that Committee went into the inquiry opposed to a cull, but came round to that view having seen the evidence. Does she agree that it would be great if those who have understandable doubts about a cull could come to rural areas, such as Cornwall, and see the devastation on the ground so that they could understand that we need to do something about this issue?

[Mrs Spelman]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point and I thank him and the Select Committee on which he served, as well as the present Select Committee, for the efforts that they have put into addressing this difficult issue. However, nothing compares to visiting a farm in one of the worst affected areas and learning at first hand about the devastation and heartache that repeatedly having to send cattle to slaughter brings.

Water and Sewerage Charges (South West Water)

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Sanders]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point, and I made that same point in a Radio Cornwall interview not an hour ago. It is amazing that that station can be picked up so far away.

My main point is that the development of a solution is fundamentally undemocratic and beyond scrutiny. Deciding which combination of Walker’s recommendations to implement should be down to the political will of Ministers and the Government. It should be for them to take the courageous decision to put an end to this injustice or suffer the political consequences. The solution should not be watered down—excuse the pun—by quangos and officials who have no inherent interest in standing up for water customers, especially not those in the far south-west. Ofwat claims that a levy on other water company areas to bring down bills in the south-west, or to equalise bills across the country, would breach Treasury rules, and it is not keen to explore changing those rules, but the nationwide social tariff suffers from that very same problem, because it involves moving money around between water customers, outside the Government’s coffers.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for all his work on this issue over a great number of years, and I congratulate him on securing the debate.

Does my hon. Friend not agree that there is perhaps a misapprehension among some people that the south-west is a wealthy part of the country, and that that somehow informs the view that costs could not be shared across the country? There is an idea that many wealthy people are sitting down on huge estates in the south-west and being subsidised by poorer people in urban areas elsewhere when, in fact, areas such as Cornwall are some of the most deprived—there are very low incomes there. That is what ought to inform the decision about a more equitable way forward.

[Mr Sanders]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In my constituency of Torbay, the unitary authority area now has a gross value added level lower than Cornwall’s was when it qualified for objective 1 assistance, and there are other such pockets in the south-west.