Royal Mail Takeover

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Monday 16th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Justin Madders]

First, I extend my sympathies to my hon. Friend’s constituent who was attacked. We all feel abhorrence when public servants are attacked doing their job.

My hon. Friend can be assured that services will be protected. This is an opportunity to get investment. We have commitments that were not in place previously post privatisation, so we are in a better place than before.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

On Friday I will be visiting the delivery office in my constituency. Like other Members, I am concerned to reassure those who work there about what this privatisation will mean for them. We have talked a lot about services and universal obligations, but what reassurances can the Minister give that jobs will not be lost down the line?

[Justin Madders]

It is not a privatisation—that began under the hon. Lady’s party’s time in office. This is an important step forward, getting commitments that were not previously in place to protect the Royal Mail brand and delivering the investment that we all clearly see is needed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Thursday 12th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Gareth Thomas]

Yes, we are determined to maintain and, indeed, strengthen the post office network. I suspect that the hon. Member will recognise that we inherited a Post Office with huge problems, which we are working with the new leadership of the Post Office to begin to tackle. We are looking at what new commercial opportunities there may be for the Post Office, and banking appears to be the most significant one. We are also working with the Post Office to identify some of its infrastructure problems, not least in developing a replacement for the Horizon scheme.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

15. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of levels of take up of parental leave.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Justin Madders)]

The parental rights survey 2019 found that 89% of employee mothers took maternity leave and 70% of employee fathers took paternity leave, but take-up of shared parental leave is much lower. In fact, it is disappointingly low, which is why we are committed to a review of the parental leave system. Work is under way to deliver on that, and I will provide an update in due course.

[Christine Jardine]

I agree with the Minister: it is very disappointing. For many parents, current maternity pay is too low, and the leave system is not flexible enough. A recent report by the BBC said that almost half of new fathers were unaware of what was available to them. The system is skewed, and the take-up is lower among lower earning families. That is particularly important—this was pointed out to me by a constituent in Edinburgh West—for those with multiple births who need not only more time but more financial support during maternity leave. Does the Minister agree that maternity pay levels need to be increased, and that the flexibility of the scheme needs to be improved, as does public awareness?

[Justin Madders]

The hon. Member makes a number of points, which I am sure we will consider as part of the review we are undertaking. The Employment Rights Bill has a number of important measures to support working families, bringing 1.5 million parents into scope for parental leave and another 32,000 into scope for paternity leave. We are keen to build on that and we want to support families who are in work.

Fireworks: Sale and Use

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Monday 9th December 2024 Westminster Hall

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank the hon. Member for Keighley and Ilkley (Robbie Moore) for securing this debate, which has a specific resonance in my constituency. When Edinburgh Zoo told me what happened to the baby red panda whose birth we had all welcomed and celebrated just a few days before, my stomach dropped. It was heartbreaking. What terror she must have felt alone in the dark, bombarded by loud noises she could not have understood and with no comfort. We later learned that her mother had also died probably as a result of stress caused by fireworks.

I thought about other animals, not just in Edinburgh Zoo but across the country. My dog had paced the floor barking, running in from the garden terrified when the first of what seemed like hundreds of fireworks began going off. Worse, I thought about the accident and emergency departments that would deal with burns. I thought about instances like the heartbreaking story of Josephine. I pay tribute to her family and thank them for allowing her story to be shared here today.

I, too, am reluctant to ban fireworks, partly because I loved bonfire night as a child. When we were parents of young children, our group of friends loved the annual firework display, with hot drinks and snacks organised by the school. Hogmanay for me is defined by the awe-inspiring firework displays from Sydney to New York to mark their respective midnights, and Edinburgh is of course always a highlight.

I have always believed that the availability of fireworks for those spectacular organised public displays was part of a valuable expression of celebration, but now I am not so sure. That is why I welcome the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen). We need to somehow limit noise levels, especially of fireworks sold to the public, so perhaps the time has come to question our attitude to fireworks, if not through legislation. We need to think about how we prevent celebrations descending into antisocial nuisance. Many people agree that something should be done—they signed the petitions, after all—so it is time we listened.

We know from official figures that around 2,000 people visit accident and emergency departments with firework-related injuries every year, many of them severe burns that require long-term treatment. Sadly Roxie, the red panda cub, is not the only animal casualty. The Kennel Club says that around 80% of dog owners notice their pets shivering, barking excessively, hiding, howling and crying as a result of stress caused by fireworks. The British Veterinary Association says that some animals suffer such terror that they have to be put down.

It may seem unusual that the death of one baby red panda in a zoo should cause such outrage, but perhaps it is the irony of an endangered species being legally protected across Asia, carefully looked after and bred by one of the world’s respected zoological societies and yet utterly defenceless against noisy fireworks, or perhaps it is the innocence of a tiny orphaned creature that tugs at our heartstrings. Whatever the reason, it is time that the UK Government paid attention to the people who have signed this petition to say that we must find a way of preventing the damage that is done every year.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

Like the hon. Lady, I have had multiple complaints from constituents who are concerned about the impact of fireworks on the most vulnerable, children and pets. That particularly applies to fireworks being set off by people in their gardens or illegally in public places. According to recent research, Slough has 18 firework-related events, displays or shops per 10 square miles, which is the highest number of any UK town. Does the hon. Lady agree that centrally-held events are often safer and more considerate, and limit the environmental impact on our local areas?

[Christine Jardine]

I agree that that is often the case, but it still leaves the problem of noise, which is central.

In Scotland we have an unusual situation: the use of fireworks is devolved, but the regulation of the sale of fireworks is reserved, so local authorities such as Edinburgh have brought in trial control zones. Edinburgh Zoo welcomed that, but suggested that silent or at least quieter fireworks might be the solution; others want an outright ban or specially controlled areas. As I say, Edinburgh introduced such areas this year, but unfortunately it could not select the area around Edinburgh Zoo in my constituency. Whatever the solution, we have to find it quickly or accept that fireworks and firework displays will be consigned to the past because they are too noisy, stressful for animals and dangerous for people.

Post Office Horizon

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Justin Madders]

We are taking a close interest, as the hon. Member would expect, in the evidence coming forward in the inquiry. Much of it is shocking. The amount of obfuscation and, shall we say, misinformation put out by a number of individuals is concerning. We think it is right to wait and see what the chair of the inquiry recommends in terms of future action, but we are committed to looking at that closely and ensuring that individuals take responsibility for their actions.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

One of my constituents was about to end more than 20 years of service with the Post Office with a comfortable package, but she was persuaded to take on a post office for two months. She did so and then got caught up in the Horizon scandal. She had months of trauma, trying to prove her innocence and arguing with the Post Office, and then she was sacked. She lost the package and incurred a lot of expense. I spoke to the previous Minister about that.

My constituent has applied for compensation, but she has been told that she is not entitled because she did not have a contract, which she says she did. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how we can protect such people and ensure that they get the compensation they are entitled to, and that we do not have this continual excuse-finding for not paying people who deserve compensation?

[Justin Madders]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for that question. Where there are evidential difficulties, we are looking at other ways of ensuring that those who should be eligible are entitled to claim. I am happy to have further conversations with her in that respect.

Terms and Conditions of Employment

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. Most employers treat their employees with dignity and respect. That is what we expect and what we see in the vast majority of cases. An economic environment in which we have virtually full employment means a competitive market for employees. That is the best protection against the kind of approach that some employers take and which we are trying mitigate. We believe the measures strike a fair balance. We believe there are situations where dismissal and re-engagement is appropriate—I can expand on that if he would like me to—so it is about trying to strike a balance, and we think we have struck that balance.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I thank the Minister for giving way on that point. Does he appreciate that many of us think the code looks very optimistic, presuming a best-case scenario in human behaviour and industrial relations, and that the result is really toothless in dealing with companies that might operate outwith the norm?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I do not think so. There is a financial deterrent to going down a route that is not appropriate, and to not following the code. As I say, we are striking a balance. There are situations in which, as a last resort, businesses need to do something more drastic; for example, a business might be in peril and unable to survive without making the kind of changes we are discussing, and such cases have come before tribunals. If the question is whether it is right that everybody shares a small burden—say, a reduction in salary—one person cannot hold out against that, and prevent a restructuring that is in the interests of the many, rather than the few. The provisions have been used in the past to save businesses and therefore jobs. That is what we are trying to protect, while also protecting against a rogue employer using such opportunities irresponsibly and unfairly.

The code will apply to all employers, regardless of size. We expect all employers in relevant scenarios to adhere to it. As I said, employment tribunals will have the power to apply an uplift of up to 25% of an employee’s compensation if an employer unreasonably fails to comply with a code that applies.

In accordance with the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, the Secretary of State consulted ACAS on a draft statutory code before publishing it. Between January and April 2023, the Government publicly consulted on a draft code, enabling trade unions, employers and other interested parties to contribute their views. Careful consideration was given to those views, and as a result, changes were made to the draft code. The Government are very grateful to all respondents to the consultation for their considered and helpful responses. An updated draft code was laid before Parliament on 19 February, and a Government response to the consultation was published on the same day. The draft code was then debated in both Houses of Parliament. I am pleased to say that it was approved. The Government will introduce separate legislation to bring the code into force before summer recess.

The Government are going even further by bringing forward this order, which will increase the deterrent effect of the code by adding a protective award where there is non-compliance with the collective consultation requirements in schedule A2 to the 1992 Act. The protective award is compensation awarded by an employment tribunal when an employer does not consult with its employees before dismissing 20 or more of them within any 90-day period at a single establishment. Schedule A2 to the 1992 Act sets out the list of claims for which an employment tribunal can make a 25% adjustment to compensation if one of the parties has unreasonably failed to comply with a code of practice made using powers in section 203 of the 1992 Act. The relevant code of practice that will be impacted by this change is the code of practice on dismissal and re-engagement. The change will mean that where an employment tribunal is making a protective award, and it appears to it that the employer has unreasonably failed to comply with the code, the tribunal may increase that award by up to 25%. The change was called for by respondents to the consultation, including trade unions, and will increase the deterrent effect of the code.

There are calls to ban the practice of dismissal and re-engagement, or to restrict the practice in a manner that effectively amounts to a ban. The Government believe that we must preserve companies’ flexibility, so that they can manage their workforce in times of crisis. The UK’s flexible labour market is key to economic growth and helps business to thrive, so it is right that we have mechanisms to enable us to save as many jobs as possible. The code is a proportionate response to controversial fire and rehire practices, balancing protections for employees with business flexibility. The vast majority of employers want to do the right thing by their employees. For most employers, decisions to change terms and conditions, or to let members of the workforce go, are not taken lightly.

The UK is a great place to start and grow a business. It has a strong labour market, and its success is underpinned by the balance between labour market flexibility and worker protections. It is vital that we continue to strike the right balance, while clamping down on poor practice. The Government intend the code and the order to be in effect before the summer recess. I commend the order to the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Alan Mak]

The Government launched our critical imports and supply chain strategy earlier this year, and I chaired the Critical Imports Council last month. We are bringing together 23 organisations to make sure that our supply chains are robust, and I look forward to my hon. Friend’s input into that.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

The village of Kirkliston in my community recently became the latest to lose its post office—there have been a whole series of closures. That community is not isolated, but it is not in the centre of Edinburgh, and there is no alternative. As I say, it is one of a series, so can the Minister tell us what the Government are going to try to do to halt this decline in post offices?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

As I said in response to an earlier question, we put in £50 million to support the uncommercial parts of the network. I am sorry that the post office that the hon. Lady mentions has closed. I am happy to meet her to see what we can do to ensure that there is a local post office. There are network access requirements on the Post Office, and 99% of the population must be within 3 miles of a post office. If that is not the case in her area, I am happy to do what I can to ensure that that is rectified.

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill (Instructions)

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I find myself in the unusual position of supporting an SNP motion. It is probably the first time; I suspect it will be the last. The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) has shown her dedication to the people whom she represents. I have sat in Committee with her, and I have listened to her in debates, and I know how passionately she feels about this matter. She is not, in my view, just making a political point; she honestly believes that postmasters and postmistresses in Scotland who have been wronged by the Post Office, which carelessly dealt with her cases, deserve the same justice as those in Northern Ireland, England and Wales.

I appreciate the fact that the Minister listened to voices from Northern Ireland. Since coming into his position—this matter has gone on for a long time—he has been dedicated to resolving the issue, and I praise him for that, but we have one last part of the jigsaw that needs to be dealt with. It could be dealt with by including Scotland in the Bill, as Northern Ireland has been included.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Like others who have spoken, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) for the work that she has done. We all feel for the postmasters throughout Scotland, but does the right hon. Gentleman accept that a lot of people in Scotland watching this are wondering why the SNP’s argument is not with the Lord Advocate, the person responsible for this delay? Why are SNP Members bringing it here? Why are their Government not taking this up with the Lord Advocate?

[Sammy Wilson]

I do not know about the relationship between the Lord Advocate and the Scottish National party, but I do know that a remedy is going through this House today that could dispense with whatever differences there might be in Scotland, and deal with an issue that all of us in this House are agreed needs to be dealt with quickly.

I have listened to the argument made by the Minister and others that due process needs to be followed. Indeed, I have listened to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), who said, “You have to remember that the Scottish system is different. The level of proof in Scotland is different. There was greater information available.” The implication is that when the Scottish Parliament considers this, it might come to the conclusion that some of the convictions were safe, and some postmasters and postmistresses would not be exonerated at all. We have not taken that view for the rest of the United Kingdom. Indeed, some judges have argued that not all the convictions were unsafe, but we have decided that given how the whole Horizon situation was dealt with, it is fair that we take the view that the problems may affect some people who were rightly convicted and do not start going through each case. I remember that an argument made by a number of Members here was, “Why don’t we do this case by case?”

Lesbian Visibility Week

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kate Osborne]

Yes, hate is hate, and it is unacceptable in any form. We defeated it then, in the ’80s, and we will defeat this hate and discrimination now.

Let me return to my coming out. Although I had a supportive family, when I came out “lesbian” was still a dirty word, a word thrown at me at school in a derogatory way. If you were a lesbian you were seen as unnatural. You were chased out of girls’ bathrooms—that has, in fact, happened to me in recent years—and you were sexualised by men far older than you, which is something that lesbians still face today.

It was 10 years after I came out that I bought my first copy of a magazine called DIVA. There was nothing else like it at the time; there was nothing else for my generation that helped lesbians to feel included, and that magazine helped me to feel less alone. That was 30 years ago—so happy birthday, DIVA, and thank you.

In the last 30 years DIVA has been a lifeline for many women, and it was DIVA and Linda Riley who launched Lesbian Visibility Week. DIVA is much more than a magazine: as it tells us, it is a movement. It has an annual Power List, and for the first time, in 2024, I have made it. To travel from being that young, lonely lesbian 30 years ago buying my first copy to being included in this list has made me feel honoured and deeply grateful. It is a privilege to be named alongside colleagues and other brilliant activists, including the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell), my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome) and the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mhairi Black). Today, I feel proud to see so many LGBTQIA+ women basking in the freedom to explore their sexuality in ways that many women could not, only a few years ago.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

The hon. Lady has reminded me of a thought that I once had: something that I felt very strongly when the Bill that became the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 was passed. I had a young daughter, and I felt that if I had two daughters and one was straight and the other was a lesbian, I would want them to have the same quality of life, the same protection under the law, and the same right to love whoever they wanted to love. Does the hon. Lady feel that we have made progress towards a situation in which that will be the case?

[Kate Osborne]

Unfortunately, I have to say that we have gone backwards in recent times. I thought we would be further forward than we are, but when I look back to some years ago, I see that that is not the case.

Weeks like this really matter. They show solidarity, and they enable us to support each other and help us to celebrate our differences, embracing the whole LGBTQIA+ community. Too often people seek to divide us, but as the theme of this Lesbian Visibility Week shows, we are unified, not uniform. We are here to be fabulous in our differences and to be seen, to let others know that they can be their true selves. We have to use our own experiences to help people, and to use our platforms to give LGBTQIA+ people spaces. That is what Lesbian Visibility Week is about. That is why I am holding this debate.

An often-used expression is that we stand on the shoulders of giants, which we do, and I want to honour just a few of the wonderful women who have given so much to our community and been inspirational to me and to so many others. In the 1970s, Maureen Colquhoun made history by becoming the first openly out lesbian in Parliament. Her courageous act in the face of media hostility has meant that so many of us can stand in this Chamber today and follow in her footsteps.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) is an iconic lesbian in Parliament. The first to come out in office, and now a dame, she is a role model to many, breaking down barriers as the first lesbian Minister and always fighting for equality by using her platform to stand up for our community.

Of course, there are brilliant women who are the driving force behind so many political and campaigning movements. Lisa Power was one of the founding members of Stonewall in 1989. Like me, she was a volunteer at the Lesbian and Gay Switchboard. Lisa has led a decade-long fight on behalf of people living with HIV.

There are women such as the brilliant Sue Sanders, the founder of LGBT+ History Month, and Baroness Barker, who led the first ever debate in the other place on lesbian, bisexual and transgender women’s health. There are historic queer trailblazers such as Anne Lister, who was fabulously represented by Suranne Jones in “Gentleman Jack”. I was distraught when I found out that “Gentleman Jack” would not be returning for a third season. For the first time, I saw someone on TV who represented me, so much so that I was even told that we look alike, to which I responded, “I wish!”—but I do love wearing a waistcoat.

The wonderful Sophie Ward is a trailblazer for LGBTQIA+ rights. As an actress and model, she was one of the first high-profile women to come out as a lesbian in 1997. The brilliant Phyll Opoku-Gyimah is a wonderful campaigner and the founder of UK Black Pride. Dame Kelly Holmes is a sports hero to us all. She is an icon who was instrumental in the fight to address the vile mistreatment of LGBTQIA+ veterans and those who are still in the Army, and she is now empowering women through her Athena Effect events.

Of course, there is also Linda Riley, one of my best friends, who is the founder of Lesbian Visibility Week and publisher of DIVA magazine. She is a titan who has done so much for lesbians, and who I know will do so much more in her lifetime.

Let us not forget another good friend of mine, Nancy Kelley, who is in the Gallery today. Nancy has recently been appointed as the director of Lesbian Visibility Week. She has already been a trailblazer as chief executive of Stonewall and an award-winning human rights and social justice campaigner. She is a champion of LGBTQIA+ rights who always stands up for our community, so I am excited to see what bigger and brighter things are next for Lesbian Visibility Week in the years to come.

Although there is a lot to celebrate, it is important that we do not forget the challenges that lesbians still face. In fact, in celebrating Lesbian Visibility Week, I have faced some awful homophobic remarks on social media, simply for being open about my sexuality. I have been called a “nonce” and had threats on Twitter— or X. I receive a constant barrage of homophobic abuse, but such abuse will not stop me standing here or speaking up on behalf of my community. The toxic culture on social media, and the toxic narrative from the Government, at times, in pushing their war on woke makes LGBTQIA+ people less safe. We have seen a rise in hate crime, and we must make active efforts to support our non-binary and trans community, who still face unique day-to-day challenges simply for being themselves and loving who they love.

Last October I led a debate calling on the Government to remove the additional financial burdens for same-sex couples who need to access in vitro fertilisation. The Minister committed then to a timetable to remove the barriers and bring forward a statutory instrument to end the postcode lottery for same-sex couples seeking IVF, so where is it? The legislation has still not materialised. Before qualifying for IVF on the NHS, same-sex female couples must fund six cycles of artificial insemination, so it comes as no surprise that too often people are being priced out of starting a family. My constituents Holly and Leanne have had to choose between buying a house or having a baby—a decision that couples should never be forced to make. They have been unable to afford IVF and are now, like so many, looking at alternative routes. We need to see action, because many cannot wait any longer.

Today we are told that young people are too woke and that it is fine for young LGBTQIA+ people when they come out, yet the reality is often very different. LGBTQIA+ children are twice as likely as others to be bullied. Some young LGBTQIA+ people are still kicked out and made homeless when they come out, and many do not feel safe where they live. The Albert Kennedy Trust reported that 77% of young LGBTQ+ people gave family rejection, abuse or being asked to leave home as a cause for their homelessness.

A DIVA survey in 2024 showed that less than a third of LBQ+ women and trans people in the UK feel safe where they live. To have this continue today is dystopian. Just yesterday, I asked the Deputy Prime Minister about IVF provision and pointed out that the LGBTQIA+ community are being let down. His response was that the Government have been “excellent”, but I can tell the House that none of the lesbians I have spoken to this week thinks the Government are excellent at anything.

We must use our platforms and our ability to speak up, to highlight our diversity and to look at the impact of intersectionality. We must consider how the world is for lesbians of colour and lesbians with disabilities, and how the gender health gap and gender pay gap negatively impact on us all but in different ways.

I am privileged to be able to stand up in Parliament and say all this, because in a third of countries across the world, including 64 UN member states, it is illegal to be LGBTQIA+. Until we have won equality for all people globally, the fight goes on. I wish everyone a happy and safe Lesbian Visibility Week.

Oral Answers to Questions

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

14. If she will make an assessment of the potential impact of regulatory costs on small and medium-sized enterprises.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

We are hacking through the red tape, not least with our smarter regulation programme. We have announced reforms to employment law and the recording requirements of the working time directive, which will save UK businesses up to £1 billion, particularly benefiting SMEs.

[Christine Jardine]

I note that the Minister welcomed yesterday’s Budget as helping small businesses, particularly in the hospitality sector, which is very hard hit in my constituency. One of the problems that many businesses tell us about is the business rates system. More businesses have failed in the past two and a half years than have been established. In Scotland, we often find that while the downsides of this Government’s policy are happily passed on by the Scottish Government, any benefits are not. We would like to see complete reform of the rating system—not tinkering but reform. Can the Minister tell us whether widespread reform is planned? How would he plan to do it? How could businesses in Scotland also benefit?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to point to some of the difficulties in the hospitality sector. I speak to hospitality entrepreneurs in my constituency and across the country who are finding it difficult, which is why we stepped in with, first, a package of about £13 billion of business rates support, and there was £4.3 billion of business rates support last autumn. We passed the equivalent moneys on to the Scottish Government to pass on to their hospitality venues, but they passed on none of it.

A typical pub in Scotland is £15,000 worse off than a typical pub in England, and a typical guest house is £30,000 worse off. That is why Scotland has a 30% higher failure rate than England. Similarly, a typical pub in Labour-run Wales is £6,000 worse off and a typical guest house is £12,000 worse off, and there is a 19% higher failure rate. It is critical that the benefits are passed on to those businesses, and that we look for structural reform. Anyone who wants to scrap business rates needs to show where the £22.5 billion of income will come from, rather than simply saying that they will scrap them without announcing a replacement.

Conversion Practices (Prohibition) Bill

Christine Jardine Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 1st March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

I totally agree.

In the process of writing the Bill, I endeavoured to meet everyone who asked. I visited people in their communities across the country and I invited people to meet in this place. I want to thank various groups, including Stonewall, the Ban Conversion Therapy campaign group, TransActual, TransLucent, and the medical profession. But I also want to thank people who have very different views from mine, who I have met and listened to: the Christian Institute, Keira Bell and her lawyers, the LGB Alliance and the Gay Men’s Network, to name a few. I have engaged with all in good faith. I have considered and, in most cases, adopted suggestions that each one of those groups has made to make the Bill better.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is making a very powerful point and I commend him for the amount of work he has obviously done to reassure people. I think we are all aware that at the moment the debate around transgender issues has become incendiary and difficult, and a lot of damage has been done to a lot of people. One thing I found about his Bill is that, if I am reading it correctly, it aims to be reassuring. There is no attempt to stop people discussing their sexuality, there is no attempt to stop them discussing it with people from whom they might want to take advice, and there is no attempt whatsoever to stop them trying to explore the issues on their own. It is simply protecting them from unwanted interference and traumatic attempts to change them.

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

That is why the predetermined purpose is so important in the Bill. Rather than having arguments about which evidence is better, I have sought a way to find a framework that addresses the real or perceived problems of what it is claimed is happening in any direction. I think we should all agree that it is abuse and the Bill will stop it.

I understand the nervousness of some in the trans community who have been subjected to a decade of victimisation, but the Bill will protect and support them. I understand the wariness of many counsellors and psychotherapists who have been attacked in one direction or another, and who are fleeing the profession because of the lack of guidelines in this area. The Bill will help to re-set the debate with a framework that focuses on predetermined purposed. It means that if you explore or support people through a process, you will always be protected. When people insist that you must have a predetermined outcome in mind at the start of a process, you will now have the guidelines and can push back, saying, “That is not within the scope of what I can do in law.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Bristow]

I will not, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind, as I want to get a few points on the record.

Yesterday, I met local religious leaders from churches and mosques in Peterborough. Like me, they had significant concerns about the Bill and the profound impact that it would have on their ability to offer pastoral care. We spoke for an hour and had a good, constructive conversation about the effects that the Bill could have on them and their family and friends.

It is important to stress that we agree that everyone should be free to live their life, whatever their gender or sexuality, without being persecuted. This is 2024 in Great Britain: no one deserves anything less than the utmost respect and understanding, regardless of their gender or sexuality. However, it is obviously and rightly already illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sexuality or gender, so not only is the Bill unnecessary on one level, but it could have unintended consequences. It risks silencing people for offering honest and good-natured support, often to very vulnerable people.

The Bill also does not comply with protections of the rights to freedom of speech and to religion set out in the European convention on human rights, as has already been said. That was one of the main action points of our meeting yesterday. It cannot somehow become illegal for a priest or an imam to offer advice to a member of their congregation. Obviously, that would be unthinkable.

[Christine Jardine]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Paul Bristow]

I will not, sorry.

I wanted to make that point very clearly. When I sent out my email to that group of faith leaders in my city, I did not understand what sort of response I would get. It is always important for a local Member of Parliament to listen to their constituents and to those who have influence over a large number of them, so I am very grateful to Mohammed Younis of the Darassalaam mosque on Alma Road, Imam Mansoor from the Ghousia mosque, Tommy Cooper and David Weeks from the Way Family church in Werrington, and Giles Knight from the Open Door Baptist church. Those people came to that meeting and were very open minded; they wanted to contribute to discourse. Most importantly, they wanted to be able to offer the same pastoral care and support to their flocks.

The other main issue I have with the Bill is that it is too ambiguous and confusing. It is too open to reinterpretation and could be used in a potentially harmful way. For example, if a young man was confused about his gender and sought advice at his local church or mosque, would it be illegal for the relevant religious leader to suggest that he should not go ahead with a gender change? What about a married man who is told by a pastor or imam that he should stay with his wife and remember the promises he made to God? If he explains that he is attracted to another man, would it be illegal to say, “Remember your marriage vows, remember the children you have and remember the promises you made in front of God”? These are the very serious—

The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)).

Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday 15 March.