Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Grayling Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

3. What progress his Department has made towards the launch of its Work programme providing personalised assistance to those out of work.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I am pleased to inform the House that the contracting process for the Work programme is going well. We have had more than 100 expressions of interest from would-be prime contractors. We will announce those who will be on the framework in late November and we will then move on to the next stage of contracting. All is on track to launch the Work programme in the first part of next year.

[Elizabeth Truss]

Is the Minister aware of the work of the Keystone Development Trust in Thetford, particularly the social enterprises it runs such as the green bikes scheme, which helps local people to get into work and gain practical skills? It is setting up a pilot that is due to be launched in November. Is the Minister willing to come and see the pilot in action?

[Chris Grayling]

I am delighted to hear about the work that is being done in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and when I am next in Norfolk I shall be delighted to find out more about the work being done there. Her comments underline the very important role that the voluntary sector and social enterprises play in getting people back to work. That is why we stipulated that prime contractors for the Work programme must demonstrate an ability to forge a team of specialist organisations, including social enterprises and voluntary sector bodies, that have the expertise that we need—either on a localised, geographic basis or in dealing with specific groups with a particular need—to ensure that we get people back into work. It will be a requirement of the Work programme that they have a place at the table.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

May I urge my right hon. Friend to select a number of providers who have strong roots in rural communities both in advising clients and in networking among the rural labour market?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely assure my hon. Friend that that will be a factor. As we select organisations to fill different geographic parts of the Work programme, bidders’ ability to demonstrate a knowledge, awareness and understanding of the geography they will be dealing with will certainly be a factor for us. In substantially rural areas, it is essential that organisations have the expertise to deal with the particular challenges of the rural economy and not simply with those found in towns and cities.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that the best personalised assistance that could be offered to a couple with six children who are facing the £500 benefit cap would be to advise them to split into two single-parent families of three children? As a family, they already consume £500 in benefits plus £250 in housing benefit, but as two separate units they would get £250 each in benefits plus £250 in housing, thereby costing the Exchequer £1,000, using two houses and being a split-up family.

[Chris Grayling]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recognise how important it is that work pays in our society and how frustrated working people are that it is possible for a family to receive, when the tax equivalent is taken into account, an income comparable to £35,000 a year in benefits. If we are to send the message that work pays, we have to limit the amount that the state supports people when they are outside work.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

The Minister will be aware of the pilot scheme operating in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire. In this extremely rural area, people are being asked to travel significant distances to appointments and the availability of suitable public transport is very limited. Will he consider taking appointments to the rural communities where people are rather than asking them to travel long distances to jobcentres?

[Chris Grayling]

One reason we are doing the two pathfinder projects is to understand precisely the issues and challenges that we will face when we roll out the programme nationwide next year. I am very happy to consider any of the lessons that have been learned from the experience in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire to see whether we can do things better. In the mean time, we have provided additional funding to the two towns and cities involved in the first programmes—Burnley and Aberdeen—so that local needs that arise during the process can be met.

[Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

I applaud the payment by results model: it has worked in America and Australia, and it will work here. May I draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to the Department for Work and Pensions website of 19 July, where he makes the point that results have to be delivered before any payment is made? Lots of small charities that I have spoken to up and down the country say that that will mean that they simply do not bid for contracts, even if they are part of a consortium with a big corporate player. What will my right hon. Friend do to design a system to protect the interests of the smaller charities that are so important for the big society?

[Chris Grayling]

May I say what a great pleasure it is to have a question from my hon. Friend, and to see him in his place?

We are doing everything we can to ensure that the systems in place are suitable to ensure we have a mix of organisations. We have launched a specific new code of conduct for prime contractors—the Merlin standard—that is designed to ensure that they look after the commercial interests of smaller organisations on the framework, or that are working with framework providers. It is essential that we have a proper mix of organisations involved in the Work programme and we will take all the steps we can to ensure that that is the case.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

A great deal will hang on the Work programme. We all remember the damage in our constituencies when unemployment reached 3 million before, and we remember which party was in government at the time. The warning last week from PricewaterhouseCoopers that 500,000 private sector jobs, as well as 500,000 public sector jobs, are under threat makes clear the danger ahead. The Minister will know of the fear of the small providers we have been talking about—social enterprises, rural organisations, community groups and faith groups—that they will be included in bids for marketing purposes, but dropped once the contract is awarded. How will contracting address that danger?

[Chris Grayling]

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his position. I look forward to working with him, as well as debating the issues, over the months ahead.

PricewaterhouseCoopers’ chief economist said he expected the private sector to be able to take up the slack from changes in the public sector. On smaller providers, the Merlin standard is designed to achieve precisely what he aims for. Under the terms of the Merlin standard, a prime contractor who wins a contract off the back of an attractive-looking consortium of organisations but dumps them all the next day can lose its contract. We shall be assiduous in ensuring that the interests of smaller subcontractors are protected, particularly those with the specialist needs we absolutely need for the Work programme. That is what the Merlin standard is designed to achieve.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

2. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of services provided to jobseekers by Jobcentre Plus.

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[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

4. What support his Department plans to make available to people on incapacity benefit to enable them to take up employment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We will make the Work programme available to incapacity benefit claimants who are moved back into the jobseeker stream. They will be eligible for support through the Work programme. We will pay an enhanced price to those providers who work with people coming off incapacity benefit to make sure that they get the tailored support they need.

[Tony Baldry]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he make sure that Jobcentre Plus, work clubs, and disability organisations can ensure that no matter where people are—whether they are on incapacity benefit or in Remploy factories that are making losses—they know where they can access support and get the skills training that they need to get back into the world of work?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the central goals of our work over the next 12 to 18 months is to start a process of ensuring that far more people with long-term health problems and disabilities have the opportunity to get into the workplace. We will take whatever steps are necessary, primarily through Jobcentre Plus, to ensure that those people are handled effectively, and are steered to the right support through the Work programme. The aim is to achieve a goal that we all want, which is to allow as many of them as possible to find jobs.

[David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

The Minister is aware that a map of where incapacity benefit is most taken up would look like a map of Britain’s industrial heritage. In former shipbuilding constituencies such as mine, people do genuinely have long-term incapacity, which is associated with the work that they did. He will agree, of course, that that does not mean that they cannot work ever again. Is he absolutely fixed on what the question actually asks? It asks what support the Government can give to help people on incapacity benefit to move to work. I would like to hear him outline that support, rather than talking about the stick of benefit cuts.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I am sure that he would agree that one of the great failings of the past 13 years has been the fact that we have consistently had 2.5 million people on incapacity benefit, and the previous Government did absolutely nothing to help them to get back into work, which is a terrible tragedy and a huge waste. We intend to change that. The Work programme will deliver tailored, specialised support for those people—support that is relevant to them, and designed not in Whitehall but by the people working with them on the front line. We intend to make a difference to those people in a way that the previous Government did not.

[Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)]

May I report that the pilot scheme in Burnley has now started? We have managed to get the local jobcentre involved with a local recruitment company, Vedas Recruitment and Training. The scheme seems to have started well; my only concern is that funding may run out before we complete it. Will the Minister guarantee that funding will carry on for a short period afterwards, if necessary?

[Chris Grayling]

I thank my hon. Friend and all those in Burnley, including those in the local authority and other local agencies, who have come together to help make the first stage of the migration from incapacity benefit a reality. I assure him that it is my belief that the money that we have supplied to Burley should be sufficient to see us through to the point when the Work programme starts next year. If there are issues, I will be very happy to talk again, and we will see what can be done about them.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

5. What plans he has to amend the eligibility criteria for winter fuel allowance; and if he will make a statement.

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[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

9. What steps his Department is taking to improve the quality and accuracy of the work capability assessment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We believe that the work capability assessment is effective at identifying a person’s functional capability for work and work-related activity, and very much more so than its predecessor, the personal capability assessment. However, I am clear that we must get this right, particularly with the large-scale migration beginning next year. On taking office we implemented some of the recommendations of a review carried out under the previous Administration. I have commissioned a new review under the chairmanship of Professor Malcolm Harrington of Birmingham university, with input from some of the leading figures among the mental health charities, to try to make sure that we get this right—that we deal with any rough edges that there may be in the system before the migration next year.

[Stephen Mosley]

There are a number of conditions—for instance, MS—where the health of an individual may vary daily. What consideration has the Minister incorporated in the work capability assessment to ensure that the fluctuations in someone’s daily health do not affect their entitlement?

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend is right. This is the central issue that we have to get right. It is one of the reasons I asked Professor Harrington to include Paul Farmer, the chief executive of Mind, in his review, and why I invited mental health charities to make practical suggestions about changing the work capability assessment to identify precisely the issues that my hon. Friend has highlighted. I want to get this right. It is in no one’s interest that people should be given a steer in the direction of work if that should not happen to them. I want to look after those who genuinely need ongoing support. We will do everything we can to get this right.

[Mike Crockart]

Many of my constituents complain that too much weight was placed on one chat with one individual on a particular day, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) stated. That might be a good day for their condition, and the chat with that one individual may not provide a long-term in-depth knowledge of the claimant’s work capability. What help can the Minister give to assure my constituents that proper weight will be placed on the opinions of the claimant’s full medical team?

[Chris Grayling]

As I say, we must get this right. I have sat through a work capability assessment, so I understand exactly the issues that people are raising. I have looked carefully at the structure of it and have invited people with expertise to take part in the process. We will do everything we can to get it right. What I will not do is condemn people with mental health challenges to a life on benefits, with little opportunity of getting into employment. That would be the wrong thing to do for them. They deserve better and they will get it from this Government.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

The Minister will remember one of his ministerial colleagues describing the Conservative party as the “nasty party”. Given the obvious demonising of unfortunate people who need welfare benefit, should he not just stand up, give it to us straight and say, “Be afraid, be very afraid, the nasty party is back”?

[Chris Grayling]

That is precisely the kind of negative politicking that I hope we will not have from the Opposition over the next few months. I believe, and I think that most Members believe, that people with long-term health problems are better off being helped back into the workplace, if possible. They are better off than they would be if they spent a lifetime on benefits, and that is what all the charities that work with them also say to us. I want to do the right thing by those people, and I hope that Members on both sides of the House will unite behind a programme designed to deliver that.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Contrary to the Minister’s earlier assertion that our Government did nothing to deal with incapacity benefit, I must say that that is clearly not the case, because all of us will have heard our constituents’ experience of the work capability test. The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) mentioned some of the problems, and one issue that some of my constituents have raised is that written reports from their doctors or other people are not taken into account at all; the assessment is based simply on the test carried out by the company in question. Will the Minister agree to allow written documentation as part of the test?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady is not right, because written evidence can already be submitted to an inquiry. The decision maker in Jobcentre Plus will look at written matters as well, and that is right and proper. I have also asked those taking responsibility for the test to ensure that we maximise the discretion that is available to all the professionals involved, so that we get the assessment right. It is of course proper that we do so, but although the previous Government introduced the assessment for new claimants they left the 2.5 million people on incapacity benefit untouched. That was a mistake, and I hope that we can all work together to put it right.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

7. What steps he is taking to increase the proportion of benefit fraud detected.

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[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

11. What recent assessment his Department has made of the effects on levels of benefit dependency of wage levels.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We have not yet made an assessment of the direct impact of wage levels on benefit dependency, but we firmly believe that work must pay. Within the current system, we have the anomaly that some individuals can keep as little as 4p in an extra pound earned if they move up the income scale, and a small number of individuals receive more than £26,000 a year in benefits—a substantial amount when compared to the incomes of most working households. That cannot be right, and that is why we are bringing forward radical welfare reform proposals to ensure that work pays.

[Jim McGovern]

I thank the Minister for his response. I hope that he agrees that the national minimum wage gave a massive lift to many working people throughout the UK, and it is now time to move on and progress to a decent living wage. When wages are low, it is no surprise that benefits are often worth more than work. In my view, that is not a problem for benefits, but whatever the problem I hope he agrees that the solution is a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work.

[Chris Grayling]

Clearly, as an Administration we would like employers to move people up the income scale, and for there to be wealth in the country to enable our businesses to do that. Of course, they have big challenges to overcome after the past few years and all the economic problems that were created under the previous Government, but I share the hon. Gentleman’s aspiration. I would like people to move up the income scale, but above all else, we want to ensure that, in all circumstances, work pays. That is why we are introducing the universal credit and the changes that we are making. There should never be a point at which somebody says, “It’s not worth my while going back to work.”

[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

12. What programmes his Department operates to deliver equality for disabled people.

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[James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)]

17. What steps his Department is taking to increase the quality and accuracy of the work capability assessment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

As I indicated in my earlier remarks, I hope that the Harrington review will enable us to make the work capability assessment as appropriate as possible for the months ahead and the start of the migration from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance. However, we will continue to review the work capability assessment on an ongoing basis, and if any opportunities arise to improve it, we will take advantage of them.

[James Morris]

I have been approached in my constituency by many carers of people with severe mental health difficulties who have expressed concern about the work capability assessment. Does the Minister agree that we need to see how it can be adapted and refined to meet the requirements of severely mentally ill people?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. That is why I have said to leading mental health charities that I actively seek their input on how we can improve, in particular, the wording of the different elements of the assessment. Equally, however, I stand by my view that, where we can, it is better to help people with mental health challenges into work than to leave them on benefits long term, doing nothing.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

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[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

T3. Building business will create employment opportunities in my constituency of Weaver Vale. What support will the Government provide to help unemployed people into self-employment?

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that we are looking to expand the support available to people in parts of the country that are particularly affected by unemployment and that have a small local private sector economy. We will provide enhanced support from early next year, including through more money than is currently on offer to help the self-employed and—this is particularly important—through mentoring for small businesses, to ensure that people have practical advice and guidance so that they not only set up small businesses, but those businesses survive, grow and flourish.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

T5. Will the Secretary of State join me in recognising the great contribution that the 54 supported employment Remploy factories make to our country? Even at this late hour, will he agree to lobby the Treasury on their behalf? It would be entirely unfair and unacceptable for 3,000 of the most vulnerable disabled workers to be handed their P45s by the Chancellor on Wednesday.

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[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

T8. A constituent with bowel cancer has been found fit for work, despite having his colostomy bag changed 16 times a day. He is now going through appeal. How will my right hon. Friend ensure that those who are genuinely and obviously not fit for work are dealt with more humanely?

[Chris Grayling]

The point about cancer patients is a particularly apposite one. One thing I was astonished to discover on taking office was that we still had tough return-to-work requirements for those going through chemotherapy. Anybody who knows someone who has been through that knows it is a time when people cannot possibly return to work. We have sought to change that and we will make a number of other changes through the Harrington review. As I said earlier, our goal is, above all, to get this right. I do not want to do the wrong thing by those people who need support; I do want to do the right thing by the people with the potential to get back into work and make a better lot of their lives.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that we want to minimise the number of people claiming mortgage interest payments by keeping them in work? Does he agree that the best way of keeping my constituents in work is to ensure that the aircraft carrier goes ahead?

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[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I welcome what the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), said previously about looking into the work capability assessment. I met a delegation from Chesterfield and north Derbyshire on Thursday, although they were due to have a meeting with him. One in the group was told that she was fit to work four days before a cancer operation, while another who had a plaster cast the whole length of his arm was told that he was fit to work. Unfortunately, the Minister cancelled his appointment to see them on the day before they came down to London. Will he commit to seeing them? If he really wants to learn about the work capability assessment, he should meet some of the people who have been affected by it.

[Chris Grayling]

I did not cancel any appointment, and I had a meeting with the TUC official who organised the rally on that day. What I cannot do is get into discussion of every individual case. My goal remains to do the right thing by those people who are on incapacity benefit in the long term. We need to modify and refine the work capability assessment based on the best information available to us. What we face today is what we inherited from the previous Government. What I am doing right now is trying to improve it so that it is as foolproof as possible when we come to the national roll-out next spring. I will do my best to get that right and I hope there will be cross-party support for doing so.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

T10. The auditors of the Department have not signed off the accounts for many years. Will the Secretary of State’s announcement today keep the auditors happier in future?

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[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Many people in Sefton who work in the private sector rely for their livelihoods on customers who work in the public sector. What action will the Minister take to ensure that as a result of the comprehensive spending review, there is adequate provision in jobcentres around the country for both private and public sector workers?

[Chris Grayling]

Where we have issues in the labour market, whether public or private sector, we have a rapid response team within Jobcentre Plus that is available and able to provide advice to those who have lost their jobs. If the hon. Gentleman had read the letter that appeared in this morning’s media from some of our leading business people, whose businesses have a presence all around the country—we are also advised of this by the Office for Budget Responsibility—he would know that the private sector, in the right environment, with the deficit dealt with, can more than make up for any job losses that result of our dealing with the deficit, which we inherited from the previous Government.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—