Oral Answers to Questions
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Hoban
My hon. Friend is well known for his support for getting young people into work, and I commend him on the job club and job fairs that he has run. As a result of the collective effort between employers, Members of Parliament, Jobcentre Plus and others, youth unemployment today is lower than it was in May 2010.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister not realise that however good some of these programmes are—and some of them are quite good—we are not doing enough? Nearly a million young people are unemployed. There must be more imagination. Could we not agree on a cross-party basis that we must not allow young people to fester in unemployment any longer?
Mr Hoban
No one should be complacent about the challenge that young people are facing, but I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that, if full-time students are excluded, 66,000 more young people have been in work over the last quarter. We are seeing more progress, but we must not be complacent, and we must not forget that the problem started some time ago.
Oral Answers to Questions
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Hoban
My hon. Friend will be aware that in Lichfield, 30 claimants have started with a business mentor. That has led to 20 businesses starting already. Some 8,000 new businesses have been started as a consequence of the new enterprise allowance, and I am pleased to announce that we are going to extend the availability of the new enterprise allowance to lone parents on income support and to some employment and support allowance claimants, because they are the sort of people who would be able to benefit from the new enterprise allowance and combine their existing responsibilities with starting a business for themselves.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
May I push the Minister on what is happening to people who want to start their own business if they pitch up at Jobcentre Plus? Is it not a scandal, the way that Jobcentre Plus recycles people? Giving them a job for one day removes the onus of finding them anything, such as starting their own business, or referring them to the Work programme. There is a tension between what is happening in Jobcentre Plus and what is happening in the Work programmes that does nobody any good.
Mr Hoban
To answer the hon. Gentleman’s question about enterprise, when someone first makes a claim for jobseeker’s allowance, advisers talk to them and ask them whether they have an idea for a new business. Where they have a credible plan, they can be referred to a mentor, who will work with them to develop that business plan which, if successful, can lead to the new enterprise allowance. We see the importance of small businesses and of getting new start-ups going. Both the Work programme and Jobcentre Plus are focused on how they can help people set up a business themselves and start to recruit others.
Jobs and Social Security
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Byrne
I would be happy to trade arguments about our record with the Secretary of State, because while Labour was in office, the amount of money that we spent on out-of-work benefits fell by £7.5 billion. That is why his noble Friend Lord Freud described Labour’s record in getting people back to work as remarkable. It is a shame that he could not arrive at the same judgment about this Government’s programme, which is now in place.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I am sure that my constituents want a reflective debate today, not the sort of intervention they have just heard from the Secretary of State. As I remember, Lord Freud—or Mr Freud or Dr Freud, before he was ennobled—did a thorough piece of work for the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair. What went wrong? Was his analysis wrong or was the way the Conservative Government interpreted it wrong? Was Freud wrong and his analysis abused, or was he right and something has gone wrong with the Government?
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to take part in this debate, although I must say that there were moments when I wondered whether some of the Members who have spoken had somewhat lost the plot. So few people seem to be interested in our parliamentary democracy these days, and sometimes I think that is because of how we shout across these Benches, which puts many people off. The truth of the matter is that all the mature industrial democracies are facing some deep-seated structural challenges. The previous Government struggled with those structural difficulties, as will this Government. If anyone expects the coalition Government’s policies, many aspects of which I am critical of, to solve the problems that the Labour Administration failed to solve, I think that they are being rather naive.
What do we all want for our economy and our democracy at the moment? I want us to have full democratic citizens, something we do not often talk about. I get sick of Governments, even my own, talking about taking people out of tax. I want everyone in our country to pay tax. I want a broad tax base and the people who pay tax to feel that they are real citizens and participants. They do not want to be non-taxpayers. They also want good pay that is fair and better than the lowest legal pay, the basic minimum wage. We want full citizens, good taxpayers, fair pay and, of course, high skills.
One of the real challenges our country faces, as exemplified by the Ofsted inspector’s annual review published yesterday, is that a significant percentage of people do not get a good deal out of education and skills. We have improved immensely. The previous Government expanded higher education, and much of our school education has been improved under the previous Government and this Government. However, the fact of the matter is that roughly 25% of kids—perhaps even 30%—in many constituencies across this country are not getting the opportunity to acquire the kinds of skills that would make them full, taxpaying, participatory citizens.
Indeed, evidence given to the Skills Commission, which I co-chair along with Dame Ruth Silver, by the chief executive of Hackney college—the Secretary of State does not seem to be interested in this, but he should listen—which takes in the whole of silicon roundabout, shows that around 30,000 jobs have been created there, but unemployment in the area has not fallen by so much as 0.5%. That gets to the heart of what the McKinsey report states, which is that there is a real problem across modern industrial democracies: those people whom we cannot skill-up, whatever age they are, and who cannot get jobs.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend makes some good points about skills and training. Does he share my concern that the Department for Work and Pensions is still to reach agreement with the Scottish Government about who is responsible for the cost of training those who have entered the Work programme in Scotland and that, as a result, applicants in Scotland are actually less likely to get training under the Work programme than those south of the border?
Mr Sheerman
My hon. Friend will forgive me for knowing less about the situation in Scotland than I do about the situation in Yorkshire and England, but I am sure that she is right. There are many local differences, as I am finding in my area.
That is why I asked for the Freudian analysis earlier. Lord Freud, before he became a Member of the upper House, was asked by Tony Blair to evaluate which programmes worldwide had actually worked and addressed the structural problem of how to get people into work so that they can be full citizens. He looked right across the piece to identify which programmes had been successful. By requesting the Freudian analysis, I was asking whether it was good information. It was the whole basis of the policy that influenced our Labour Government’s policy and also that of the Conservative party. Freud is very important to these discussions, however he has been interpreted, and we should not forget that he was trying to look at that central problem we all face.
Mr Duncan Smith
Given that the hon. Gentleman has asked about my noble friend, who is an excellent addition to our team—whichever party he represented previously, he is a very good man and is doing very well—I may say that the Australian system, which is the basis of the Work programme, has shown some of the best results, which occur once companies are geared up and focused on getting people back into long-term, sustained employment. The system is working very well and says that it is on track.
Mr Sheerman
I thank the Secretary of State for that intervention, and I accept what he says. He knows that what I am getting at in this short contribution is that we play this game of blaming each other all the time, but the problem is international and global and we will have to sometimes forget party differences and work together on it. I want to make a couple of suggestions as to how we might do that.
Let us face it: all Governments throughout Europe, the United States and beyond have a long history of failure. Modern industrial democracies have this problem of skilling the work force. Indeed, I have never heard such castigation of our country’s further education system as that in yesterday’s annual report by the chief inspector of Ofsted, who said how poorly further education was performing in our country. All the evidence shows that further education is where young people get skills for the good life. It is where they get high skills to get good jobs to be the full citizens that I am after.
I have never heard of the chief inspector picking on one town in particular. I do not know what he has against Hastings, but he said that early years and primary schools are a failure for the children of Hastings and that they also fail when they go on to secondary school and further education. I was astonished. Thank God he was not talking about Huddersfield. It comes down to the fact that a significant percentage of people in our country have inadequate training and skills, and we need to work across parties to do something about that.
I want to share some of my experiences. One of my last reports when I chaired the Children, Schools and Families Committee looked at the problem of those not in education, employment or training. We found that intelligent programmes on the ground which represented a positive response from local authorities that understood their local communities, and which also had good local skills training and good employers, could make a significant difference to the number of people gaining skills and getting into work. There are good exemplars in this country, but some towns are more fortunate than others in retaining their manufacturing and employment base.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
I rise merely to express agreement with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s argument on skills, and in particular to say that London is the classic case that supports it, because it has created hundreds of thousands of jobs over the past decade or so, yet large numbers of our young people have been left behind. That points to a much more deep-seated problem.
Mr Sheerman
That is why I spoke of our experience in the United Kingdom, which has good exemplars of significant improvement, but the best example that I found in Europe was in the Netherlands, which has a much tougher welfare policy than us. It is difficult for someone to get any welfare payment there until they are about 27. If they are not in work, they have to be in education or training, and if they are not in education or training, they do not get a welfare payment. We in this country seem to have accepted over a long period that significant numbers of young people, many of them with low skills, can be left in a shadow land—a marginal existence—on housing benefit and a little benefit for subsistence, and that they can live in this half world as half citizens for a very long time.
During one of my shadow ministerial jobs a long time ago—it was so long ago that I was a deputy to Roy Hattersley—I became something of an expert on crime and criminality. It is fascinating that if young people do not get into crime before they are 25, they do not at all; unless they bump off their partner for the usual reason later on, they do not get into criminality. The sensible policy on deterring young people from crime is to spend money on doing so early on. We can apply the same analysis of our society to unemployment. What we hate most is intergenerational worklessness, where three generations of a family have never known anyone work.
Mr Sheerman
No, I am sorry.
Intergenerational worklessness is a dreadful scourge. We all see it on some of the estates that we represent, and we hate it, so what are we going to do about it?
We have to say, on an all-party basis, that nobody under the age of 25 should be unemployed. We should not let them down in that way. Every young person under the age of 25 should be in work, in training, or participating in a programme; I do not care if we call it the new deal, the new new deal or the Work programme. They should be in a routine of getting up in the morning, going to work and doing something creative, whether it is in the community or helping in hospitals. We have got to the stage where we are moving very quickly towards the participation age rising to 17 or 18. Neither the former Government nor this Government have seriously tackled what young people with a lower level of skills are going to do in the extra year. That is a challenge for those on both sides of the House. I once said that to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), but he got very cross with me for pointing it out, and asked what I wanted for these young people. I said that I wanted for them what rich people have—a personal trainer and a life coach—and he thought I was mad, but never mind.
I want to abolish unemployment for those under 25 and to get people out of that routine. I want to get rid of intergenerational worklessness, with a fundamental change in how we allow people to live that half life. My plea is that across the parties we should agree on a programme that gives all our young people the opportunity to live a full, democratic life.
Oral Answers to Questions
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Maria Miller
I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for the opportunity to clarify the position. She and I have already had discussions about this very issue. I hope that we will continue to have such discussions, and that they can involve the other parties as well. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will be able to make things clearer in his business statement later today.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State will recall that the Leveson inquiry started as a result of the phone hacking scandal. Is she aware of recent evidence that journalists were using information like a trading commodity, one of them picking up the hack and then passing it to another to disguise the source of the hacking? Will Leveson cover that aspect?
Maria Miller
Obviously Lord Leveson has been looking at this issue in an enormous amount of detail, and criminal investigations are also in progress. I am sure that the specific issue raised by the hon. Gentleman, and indeed many other issues relating to the prevalence of phone hacking, will be dealt with in Lord Leveson’s inquiry report, which, as I have said, will be available very shortly.
Oral Answers to Questions
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Duncan Smith
Indeed I can. The innovation fund was set up by me when I came into the Department. It consists of approximately £30 million of seedcorn funding to enable voluntary groups, charities and organisations—beyond the normal organisations that one comes across in the work process—to show that their programmes, which help people to deal with drug addiction, family breakdown or gang violence, actually work, to prove that concept, and to set them up to be able to run those programmes. At least 11 social impact bonds have come out of this and we have just launched a second round.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Secretary of State agree that much social breakdown stems from intergenerational worklessness? Is he as enthusiastic as many Opposition Members are about the Heseltine review, “No Stone Unturned”? Will he ensure that he takes a positive role in bringing some—indeed, most—of those recommendations to fruition?
Mr Duncan Smith
When one of the big beasts from the past roars, it is always difficult not to be incredibly enthusiastic about what they are roaring about, so I accept the hon. Gentleman’s invitation to express my interest and support for the report. Obviously there are details in it, but he makes the vital point that in too many communities there are families of two and three generations that have been beyond the work cycle. This is about getting them back into the idea of work not just for the money but because their whole lives disintegrate without it. I agree with him and will certainly make sure I tell Lord Heseltine how supported he is.
Oral Answers to Questions
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Duncan Smith
I agree. Actually it is so good that they volunteer for it; I wonder whether we should run a work experience programme for those on the Opposition Front Bench.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
It is very difficult for Opposition Members to get a word in on this one. Is not the Secretary of State being rather silly, because most people know that if the work experience is of high quality and does not displace other people’s jobs, we are all in favour of it? Is it not about time that all of us on both sides of the House made sure that we had decent schemes for young people, which are of high quality and lead to jobs?
Mr Duncan Smith
I respect the hon. Gentleman and I am grateful for those comments; I wish that everybody else on his side of the House approached this issue with the same attitude. Work experience has resulted in about half those going on to it getting off the benefits roll. They want to do it—this is really important—and what they are getting from it is experience they cannot otherwise get. Employers say to people time and again, “We can’t employ you because you don’t have experience,” yet they could not get that experience. Surely this has got to be a good thing for them and a good thing for all of us.
Oral Answers to Questions
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(12 years, 2 months ago)
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Mr Duncan Smith
My right hon. Friend the Minister of State who has responsibility for employment held a meeting with a number of employers who are part of the scheme, all of whom backed and supported it. They were concerned that the message goes out that the scheme benefits young people. One employer who is not a profit-maker—the chief executive of Barnardo’s—said:
“Scrapping the scheme would have taken a lifeline from thousands of young people.”
I should also quote a girl called Dawn, who was on the programme after having real trouble finding work. She said that work experience was daunting, but that:
“It’s work experience—the clue’s in the name. Nobody is going to give you a job unless you get experience first, and that means sometimes working for free”.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I urge the Secretary of State to sort out the teething problems with the programme—there have been such problems. Will he look at the Morrisons initiative, which is different and overcomes many of the criticisms that have been made of the programme? Will he also be assured that many Opposition Members want a scheme that gets young people into work and work experience rather than being on the dole?
Mr Duncan Smith
I accept the hon. Gentleman’s positive involvement. I simply say to him that the scheme as it stands is incredibly positive. More than 50% of those who enter the work experience scheme go into work, many with the employers who took them on for work experience. The reason we set up the scheme is what young people said, and they told us, “Our problem is that when we go to an interview, employers ask us, ‘What experience have you got?' We say, ‘We don’t have experience.' They say, ‘We can’t employ you.' But without employment we can't get work experience.” I genuinely believe from our discussions with employers that the scheme is a positive move, but I will certainly look at the scheme that the hon. Gentleman talks about.
Unemployment
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Byrne
I will in a moment.
Amid these difficulties, people in this country expect the Minister for work to do something about it, and I think that I speak for many Members of the House when I say that most right-thinking people in this country believe that the Government should be doing more to get people back to work.
During Work and Pensions questions a month ago I pressed the Secretary of State to tell us what exactly he is doing to get Britain back to work. A vast constellation of initiatives was set out, including work clubs, work experience, apprenticeship offers, sector-based work academies, the innovation fund, the European social fund, the skills offer, the access to apprenticeships programme, Work Together, the Work programme, Work Choice and mandatory work activity. Listening to that list, I became slightly puzzled. With such sweat being worked up at the Department for unemployment, surely we could expect the country’s unemployed to be positively flowing back into jobs. Members can imagine my surprise when I saw the Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecast that, amid that blizzard of initiatives, unemployment is forecast to go up. How can that be?
We asked the Secretary of State to tell us just how many jobs have been created by this glorious expenditure of energy at his Department. This is what we were told in a written answer in Hansard. On Work Choice, no statistics will be available until spring 2012. On mandatory work activity, no statistics will be available until February 2012. On work clubs,
“the data requested are… not available.”
On work experience, a link was provided to a website that says nothing about jobs actually created. On apprenticeship offers, we were told:
“Information on the number of people placed in work through apprenticeship offers… is not available.”
On sector-based work academies, we were told that
“there is no national requirement for districts to record and report job outcomes achieved.”
On the skills offer, “information… is not available.” On Work Together,
“the data requested are not available.”
On the innovation fund,
“no young people have been placed into work at this point.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 122W.]
Here we are, with unemployment going through the roof and the OBR telling us that unemployment is forecast to rise again next year, but despite the multiplicity of schemes laid out by the Secretary of State, who cannot be bothered even to come along to the debate, he cannot tell us how many people are going into work as a result of the spending his Department has in place, with the exception of one programme. The one initiative—it is buried in his answer in Hansard—run by his Department that he can claim is actually creating jobs is the programme financed by the European Union. He said:
“European Social Fund support has achieved 75,671 job outcomes from July 2008 to October 2011.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 122W.]
No doubt that is why he is urging his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to get the hell out of the EU.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Are not leadership, boldness and imagination missing from that catalogue? With 1 million young people unemployed, surely we need something that captures the imagination—for instance, by using young unemployed graduates to train other people in the community and in the environment. We need imagination now.
Mr Byrne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and he has been a long-standing champion of the need to get young people into work and, crucially, equip them with the skills to succeed in the workplace, but I am afraid that we have a deficit of that from the Government. It is an embarrassment for the Minister that he is unable to tell the House how many people his schemes are getting into work. The Secretary of State appears to have so much confidence in the schemes that he cannot be bothered to turn up this afternoon. However, I want to make a more substantive point about the Minister’s flagship scheme.
Chris Grayling
What the hon. Lady has missed is that the OBR said at the time of the autumn statement that the structural deficit—not the cyclical deficit—that we inherited from the previous Government was much worse than it had previously believed. That means that the economic legacy that we inherited was much worse than we had previously believed. It is therefore a much bigger task to overcome that and to get the economy growing again, to get jobs being created again and to get Britain moving.
Mr Sheerman
I know that the Minister cares about this issue and that we are going to have point scoring. However, a million young people and their many millions of parents and friends are waiting for something to happen. Point scoring will not help them. The shadow Secretary of State finished by remembering the 70th anniversary of the Beveridge report. He was offering an olive branch. In that spirit, why can the Government not say, “Let’s all get around a table and find something together that helps the young unemployed people in this country.”?
Chris Grayling
The hon. Gentleman will learn, if he listens to my speech, that we are already doing things. We have delivered a package of support that will make a significant difference to the lives of the unemployed.
We keep hearing about a mythical two-year gap in provision. I remind the Opposition that the programmes that we inherited from them finished only three months ago. Today’s unemployment figures cover part of the period when the previous Government’s programmes were continuing.
Let me take up the points that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) made about this morning’s unemployment figures. He questioned why I had said this morning that the labour market had showed some signs of stabilisation. Let me explain why. It is because over the past month, employment has risen by 38,000 and unemployment has risen by 16,000, a number that is considerably exceeded by the change in activity levels. The youth unemployment figure, excluding full-time students, has remained static, and the jobseeker’s allowance claimant count has risen by 3,000, whereas the total number of people who have moved off incapacity benefit and income support as a result of our welfare reforms is 10,000. Those are one month’s figures and certainly do not reflect a long-term change, but they are at least a sign of some stabilisation in the labour market. I think he would and should welcome that.
Youth Unemployment
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will my right hon. Friend please ignore Government Members? They are in denial about what is happening to young people in this country. Young people are always the ones to suffer most in a recession. Does he agree that outside some parts of London and the south-east, we are in recession? We are in recession in Huddersfield and in his constituency, and we have to do something about it, but the Government are doing nothing.
Mr Byrne
Is the hon. Lady seriously denying that a crisis in youth unemployment is unfolding now? [Interruption.] I am glad that she says from a sedentary position that she agrees that there is a crisis, because the question now is what we do about it. That is the answer we want from the Government.
Before I set out what the Opposition believe is the right next step, let us remind ourselves who is paying the bill for this failure. Since the Government came to office, the benefits bill alone is projected to rise by more than £12 billion, which is £500 for every house in this country. To pay that bill for the new workless, the Government are having to squeeze working people through cuts to child care and tax credits, and the acceleration of the rise in the state pension age. Good people who are doing the right thing and who are trying to get on and go up in life are being squeezed to pay the bill for people who have been put out of work by this Government.
Mr Sheerman
Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need a massive plan for young people in our country, because this problem will get worse? We need education and training leading to work in the community and the environment. We need something bold and imaginative. The fact is that Government Members know that it is cheaper to keep young people on the dole.
Chris Grayling
I can indeed, and I shall carefully go through the different measures we have taken to tackle the youth unemployment problem. It is also important to note that we are targeting investment and support on parts of the economy where we want private sector growth so that jobs can develop.
It is worth remembering that the previous Government fiddled the figures on youth unemployment; they claimed to have abolished it. When people moved on to the new deal, they had a period of work experience and were transferred to a training allowance, at which point they no longer showed up in the figures. By that mechanism people who remained out of work for long periods temporarily disappeared from the figures, so long-term youth unemployment was, according to the previous Government, “abolished.” That was absolute nonsense.
Mr Sheerman
I have known the right hon. Gentleman for a long time, and he is a reasonable man. People outside this place want a positive initiative, to which we can bind other parties. They want an adventurous and innovative scheme to give young people the chance to get off the dole and into training and work. That is what we are waiting to hear. If the Minister comes up with a scheme like that tonight, we shall support him.
Carbon Monoxide Poisoning
Barry Sheerman Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I feel privileged to be able to introduce a debate on the Government’s policy on preventing carbon monoxide poisoning.
I think you will agree, Ms Dorries, that many of the best campaigns in this House derive from constituency experience and the constituents who come to us with particular problems. About 10 years ago, a little boy, Dominic Rodgers, was found dead in bed by his mum, Stacey Rodgers. He had died from carbon monoxide poisoning. He was 10 years of age. He had been killed by a faulty boiler in a house next door—the gas had leaked across from one premises to the next. At that time, I promised that young lady that I would never give up campaigning against unnecessary deaths by carbon monoxide.
Over the years, through the all-party parliamentary gas safety group and in other ways, we have had a constant campaign to try to reduce the number of deaths and serious injuries from carbon monoxide poisoning. Many people do not realise how prevalent they are. The group has just had a major inquiry, chaired by Baroness Finlay. The latest statistics found in evidence that, every year, approximately 4,000 people are diagnosed by accident and emergency departments as having been poisoned by carbon monoxide. If they were poisoned by carbon monoxide, that means that they could have died from it.
I was talking to a casualty surgeon this week, at the launch of the Baroness’s report. Simon Clarke, an accident and emergency consultant from Frimley Park hospital, said that the other week he had a young woman come in who was not dead but severely affected by carbon monoxide. The two budgerigars in the house, however, were dead. Interestingly, I read a recent report that people do not keep budgies and canaries much these days—except in this case. The old use of the canary in the mine was to prevent the miners from being trapped by rising carbon monoxide.
Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real problem that we face in this country. Many people do not recognise it because it is a silent killer—carbon monoxide is odourless and we cannot tell when it is around. The poisoning symptoms are tricky, and people might feel that they have a heavy cold or the flu. They might present themselves to their GP or even to A and E, but be sent home to the very environment that can kill because the symptoms are not recognised. We need a fully trained work force carrying out regular inspections in rented and owned property in this country.
When I started campaigning, the real problem was student accommodation, particularly if not very good landlords had not inspected the gas appliances, which became neglected and ceased to work properly. Time and again, we read of tragedies involving students dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. The regulations were changed, and landlords now have to inspect their property annually and have the appliances in such accommodation checked every year. What a fantastic lifesaver! We now rarely hear of students or people living in rented accommodation suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning. Yet that regulation does not apply to ordinary people’s homes.
We are keen on warm zones and green zones and all the good things we do to insulate our homes, such as having double or triple glazing, cavity wall insulation and thicker stuff in our lofts or attics, to make our little domestic idylls warm and cheap to heat. At the same time, however, we block out all the draughts and incoming fresh air which, often, saved us from carbon monoxide poisoning in the old days. Both this Government and the previous one had programmes to improve people’s ability to keep warm at low cost, but at the same time we added to the danger because less fresh air was coming in. This week in London—they are still in the city I think—we had a wonderful couple, Ken and Kimberly Hansen, whose young daughter of 17 died of carbon monoxide poisoning two years ago when she was at a sleepover at a friend’s house. Ken and Kimberly are from Buffalo, in up-state New York, which gets very cold in winter. As our winters get colder, we will have the same problem, with people again trying to keep warm and cut down energy bills but not venting through chimneys any more, so when it gets cold they block off that bit of air that seems to cause a draught in the apartment or house and then, of course, the carbon monoxide kills.
Deaths can also be caused when people to whom we refer, probably disrespectfully, as “cowboys” are not properly licensed to attend to gas appliances in the home such as boilers and other vectors.
We are considering not only gas but solid fuel, such as wood burning stoves or barbecues. My next-door neighbour the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) will be saying something about barbecues, because he lost a constituent who used a barbecue on a camping holiday only this year. All forms of gas—propane, bottled gas, liquefied petroleum gas—kill people as well, with approximately 50 deaths a year from all sources, of 4,000 reported cases in A and E.
If people go on holiday—to France—they should take a portable gas detector. I do not have a portable one with me, but one for the home, which is still quite small. In France, there were 200 deaths last year from those little gas heaters that the French are so fond of in their bathrooms and kitchens. An early-day motion tabled by the all-party group, appropriately in July, was intended to make people aware of what was happening.
Carbon monoxide poisoning is a great danger to our constituents. What we really want is regular servicing by properly trained engineers, and that annual check in all homes if we can have it. If we cannot have that, in the short term, we really need a detector in every home—such detectors are cheap. I sometimes ask the financial and insurance community why on earth a home insurance policy would be given without a detector in the home. The detectors can cost as little as £15 to £25, and they should be given to everyone who buys a home insurance policy or gets a mortgage. Forty-five thousand people a month in the spring and summer change their house, so why does a detector not go into a house every time one changes hands? I would like dual use with a smoke alarm, but a detector alone would be a great lifesaver. We have run the campaign for 10 years and I have become very intolerant of the slow approach. We want the detectors in the short term—now.
Tomorrow, with my colleagues and on an all-party basis, I shall promote a symbolic Bill, which privately I call Dominic’s Bill after the little boy who died in my constituency, to demand a carbon monoxide detector in every home in the United Kingdom. That would save us from many deaths and many cases of poisoning through carbon monoxide. I have to tell you, Ms Dorries—I know of your interest in health—that even cutting down long-term exposure that is not fatal would be a great breakthrough, because all the research shows that any exposure to carbon monoxide influences health and ability to function and can damage brain function.
I do not want to detain the Chamber, except to say that the campaign came from constituents and from a brave young woman, Stacey Rodgers, who instead of turning in on herself and destroying herself as many of our constituents do when they have a tragic loss, started campaigning, as did that American couple. She has been campaigning for 10 years, going into schools and doing something; there is no one better than her at explaining to young people the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning.
In a sense, we have reached a day of celebration, in that the “Preventing Carbon Monoxide Poisoning” report came out on Monday, and Baroness Finlay should be given all the credit for it, although there was also the work of the people who gave evidence. The Minister had input into the report, so he must pretty much approve of the 17 recommendations and I hope that he will take them on board. I also hope that he will look at our Bill. Let us get some action. Let us cut the deaths and the exposure to carbon monoxide, and let us do something practical for the short and the long term for our constituents.
Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)
May I check with Mr Sheerman and the Minister that it is okay for Mr McCartney to speak—you have cleared it?
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I start by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) and my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) for the work that they and the all-party group have done. The commitment that the group has shown, both in producing the report and in raising awareness of the dangers, is enormously valuable.
As the hon. Member for Huddersfield said, this is an area where MPs working away over a period of time can genuinely influence change, as they clearly have done already. On a personal note, the first thing I did after visiting the all-party group last year was buy a carbon monoxide alarm, so I echo his comments about the desirability of doing that. I am sympathetic to the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley about retailers, and my officials and I will look at what options are available to us.
We are very much aware of the threat that carbon monoxide poisoning can pose to people in their own homes, and of the devastating impact it has on people’s lives when things go wrong. Both Members spoke movingly about the terrible consequences of getting this wrong, and about the twin tragedies in their constituencies. I suspect that we would find similar tragedies in constituencies up and down the country. It is a tragic waste, often of a very young life, when such tragedies occur. That is why we are committed to supporting a range of measures taken by industry, health care professionals and others to prevent such tragic incidents occurring. That includes ensuring that we have appropriate regulation. I am not always a great fan of regulation, but regulations to ensure that we have properly trained gas engineers are entirely appropriate, as is raising public awareness of the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning and working to improve early diagnosis of the symptoms. We wish to see that built into the training for any professionals.
There is a well-established, strong regulatory environment in relation to gas safety and exposure to carbon monoxide. It is a legal requirement that installation and maintenance of gas appliances be undertaken only by a suitably qualified and Gas Safe Register engineer. There are also legal requirements placed on landlords to ensure that they exercise a duty of care over their tenants. That is absolutely right. An annual check of gas fittings and appliances is required, and appliances must be maintained in a suitable manner. Those measures are important in providing protection for the public. When they have their boiler fitted or checked, they can be assured that it is done by a competent and properly trained professional. If that does not happen, the consequences can be devastating for the lives or welfare of individuals and families, as we know from too many bitter experiences.
Mr Sheerman
It should be on the record that we do have a system. Unlike New York state—we were talking about comparisons only this week—we have a regulatory framework, which is delivered by the Gas Safe Register. However, the Minister is aware of how many cowboys are out there. They are not registered; they do work on the side, and they do it very badly. We must be aware of the many who hire such people.
Chris Grayling
The hon. Gentleman is correct. We have shifted the Health and Safety Executive’s focus away from monitoring low-risk, unproblematic business areas so that it can concentrate more of its efforts on the rogues out there in a whole variety of sectors. Our regulatory regimes should focus on the people who act as cowboys, as the hon. Gentleman says, not simply in one area but in a variety of areas. That is where we must make a difference.
Gas Safe Register operates the statutory registration scheme for gas engineers. There is now a good kitemarked list of registered engineers. We have the highest ever total of people—more than 130,000—now on the list. It is quick and easy to find a Gas Safe Register professional who can do the job in a proper, effective way. There is no need for anyone to turn to a cowboy, but that does not mean that it does not happen. There are industry-backed schemes for other fuels such as oil, and there is the heating equipment testing and approval scheme for solid fuels. That enables consumers easily to find professionals with the appropriate qualifications, so that they can make sure that fittings are safe.
Mr Sheerman
Will the Minister take on board what one of the witnesses who gave evidence to the inquiry under Baroness Finlay told us when I was part of the team? He told us that things may look good on paper, but he knew of cases where someone who was a taxi driver one month was a gas fitter a month later after satisfying the gas-fitter regulations.
Chris Grayling
There are often anecdotes, but it is always difficult to know how substantial they are. I believe that we have a good system. I do not claim that it is flawless, because I do not think that such a system has yet been invented by mankind. Clearly, it is important to ensure that the training provided is of an appropriate quality. That does not mean that people cannot change careers, but I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point that people who make such career changes need to have the appropriate skills, particularly in such a sensitive area.
The message to the public is simple and compelling. We can avoid the devastating consequences that the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley described by using people who have the requisite skills, training and certification. In that way, families can be certain that the person who has done the job is not operating in an unregulated environment. It is certainly not sensible to hire cowboys, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield rightly pointed out.
Of course, as we have heard today, and as we see in the report, there is a big challenge to get the message out. One of the report’s contributions was to underline again the nature of the challenge in building awareness of the issue. We have made good progress with smoke alarms, but we have much further to go with carbon monoxide alarms.
Mr Sheerman
It is worrying; we have smoke alarms in 85% of homes, but the figure for carbon monoxide detectors is still languishing at 18% or 19%, which causes serious concern.
Chris Grayling
It does, and that is why the work done by the Gas Safe Register organisation is tremendously important. We have given it the task, as did the previous Government, of running communication campaigns and undertaking other activities to encourage the use of its services to raise awareness of the dangers. There have been major campaigns targeting particularly vulnerable groups, and we recently had the first gas safety week. Also, there are other influences. The hon. Gentleman will have seen the recent “EastEnders” storyline relating to carbon monoxide poisoning. If we can get that kind of media penetration into the public consciousness, we have a real chance of building awareness in a way that Governments struggle to do. Something that people see in a soap opera on a Tuesday night has much more impact.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister is generous in giving way. One of the first campaigns that I got involved with in Parliament was on seat belts, and I organised and drove through legislation on that. This is a good moment to mention Jimmy Savile, who sadly died the other day; he was a great part of that campaign. However, even despite “Clunk-click, every trip,” and all the television advertising, we never got more than 35% of people wearing seat belts. Wherever we advertise, and regardless of “Coronation Street”, “EastEnders” or whatever, we will not increase the number of people using gas detectors unless we bring in regulation. Is the Minister willing to consider legislating for every home to have a detector?
Chris Grayling
We have rules relating to landlords and tenants, and I would be happy to consider such a measure in those cases. It is difficult, however, for Governments to instruct the public about what they should do in their houses, and we do not have such regulations for smoke alarms. I will certainly take the hon. Gentleman’s point away and give it due consideration.
Mr Sheerman
Is there not an alternative? I know that the Government do not like regulation, but could it not be put in law that a house could not be insured unless it had a gas detector? That would make insurance companies deliver on the measures that I have suggested. As I say, why should insurers and big mortgage providers not ensure that every home has one of these cheap items?
Chris Grayling
I praise the hon. Gentleman for his work in encouraging insurance companies to act, but it becomes quite problematic if Governments start instructing insurance companies in law, and telling them what they should put in their policies. I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman, but it is about the degree to which coercion is used and measures are imposed on society. This issue is one of many challenges that society faces when it comes to the health and welfare of individuals, and we must decide where to draw the line between regulation, advice, guidance and encouragement of the kind that is provided in various campaigns. I am not giving him an absolute no, but I am not sympathetic to the idea of an all-encompassing regulation. It is difficult to legislate against all the different risks to society.
Mr Sheerman
The Minister and I work well on these issues, but let us return to seat belt legislation. Would he remove the regulation on seat belts for adults?
Chris Grayling
A lot of people were, but I would not change it. We introduced seat belt regulations for the back seats of cars. The issue is about where we stop legislating against risk in society, and where we start. As for my preference, on such issues, particularly when we are talking about requiring people to have something in their homes, I am instinctively in favour of the work done by the hon. Gentleman and the all-party group to encourage people to do things differently.
As I have said, I will happily look at all the recommendations in the report, and I have listened to what the hon. Gentleman has said today. We will also look at whether there are further things that we can—and should—do. Work is already under way on some of the conclusions in the report, and that is right and proper. We share the common objective of trying to ensure that people do not tragically lose their lives through carbon monoxide poisoning. The question is how best to do that, and the work carried out by the hon. Gentleman and his group has given the Government a timely reminder about a number of other things that they might consider doing.
Mr Sheerman
A real opportunity is coming up with the green deal; 27 million homes will be improved with Government help and money. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), was helpful and amended regulations on the green deal—well, they were amended in the House of Lords—to ensure that if a house becomes airtight as a result of the green deal, it will be obligatory to put a carbon monoxide monitor in it. We will soon see a change in the way we look at homes in this country, because smart metering will provide a chance for every house in the country to look at how its energy is provided.
Chris Grayling
The hon. Gentleman makes some sensible points. I have committed to looking carefully at all his comments and recommendations, and at the content of the report. I will not give him an instant reply, but I share his objectives, and we should try to mitigate the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning whenever possible and prudent to do so.
I join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to his constituent. When I attended a meeting of the all-party group last year, I saw a number of people from different areas who have engaged with this issue because of tragedies that they have suffered. We owe it to those people to look at the best ways to ensure that such tragedies do not happen to other households and families. I give the hon. Gentleman a commitment that I will look carefully at all the recommendations in the report and at his comments this afternoon, and consider further sensible and prudent measures that can be taken to reduce the likelihood of tragedy striking elsewhere.
We must also look at the health care arena. The hon. Gentleman made the point that early diagnosis in an A and E department or a doctor’s surgery is extremely important in ensuring that somebody who has been exposed to carbon monoxide is helped, and that their condition does not become worse so that they potentially lose their lives.
It is crucial that medical professionals are aware of the risks and symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning, so that they can provide early and effective diagnosis. A lot of work has already been done to increase that awareness and knowledge. Three years ago, in 2008, and again earlier this year, the chief medical officer and nursing medical officer wrote directly to all GPs and accident and emergency consultants about carbon monoxide poisoning. Those messages also contained an algorithm developed by the Health Protection Agency to aid diagnosis. Similarly, earlier this year guidance was issued to smoking cessation clinics on the detection and diagnosis of carbon monoxide poisoning from sources other than smoking. Just last month, GPs and other health professionals were alerted to the new estimate of the number of people who attend A and E departments each year displaying signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. There is, therefore, a concerted and ongoing programme to raise awareness and keep the issue on the agenda for front-line health care professionals. That is an important part of the support and strategy that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on the all-party group believe need to be implemented.
Much has already been done, and the hon. Gentleman has had considerable influence in this area over the years. We recognise, however, that there is more to do, and that continued efforts are required to prevent tragedy striking as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning. The group’s recommendations in the report are enormously helpful, and we will consider them carefully with our officials. As I have said, some of the recommendations are already in place, and work is being done to make changes. New thoughts and ideas will be considered carefully as a team, and we will respond in detail on issues that have been raised, setting out what we believe we can and cannot do. We intend to do everything that we can, and we recognise the importance of the issue.
Mr Sheerman
I will give one last little prod, which I know is not necessary because the Minister is a good colleague on these matters. Carbon monoxide detectors carry VAT, as do flue gas analysers. I know that it is difficult to remove VAT, but it would be a step forward if people did not have to pay that tax. Would the Minister’s colleagues in the Treasury consider that? These days, a lot of our constituents are in much more danger of carbon monoxide poisoning when they travel to France and other countries. I know it is difficult, but is the Minister talking to the European Union and the European Commission about what is being done to protect people in other parts of Europe?