Online Safety Legislation: Abuse on Social Media
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the ability of current online safety legislation to regulate abuse, including racism, Islamophobia, homophobia, and sectarianism, on social media platforms.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)
My Lords, as my noble friend will know, we take these issues very seriously. The Online Safety Act will tackle illegal abuse, protect children and empower users. Regulated providers, including social media companies, must implement systems to reduce the risk that their services are used for illegal activity, including illegal abuse. Under the Act, stirring up hatred is a priority offence, requiring providers to proactively combat illegal racism, Islamophobia, homophobia and sectarianism.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for her detailed Answer. What consideration have the Government given to the flourishing of hate content on smaller online platforms, which they have the power to regulate under the highest tier of regulation: category 1 under Schedule 11 to the Online Safety Act? Are the Government minded to reject Ofcom’s advice not to use the powers available to them under the Act to do so?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, we share my noble friend’s concern about the flourishing of hate crime on these sites and particularly on smaller online platforms. The Secretary of State for DSIT is carefully considering Ofcom’s categorisation recommendations and will make regulations as soon as reasonably practical. He can decide to proceed with Ofcom’s advice or divert from it. If the latter approach is taken, a statement must be published explaining why.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, it was reported today that the United States, the EU and the UK are all expected to sign the Council of Europe’s convention on AI, which emphasises human rights and democratic values in its approach to the regulation of public and private sector systems. The convention, which is legally enforceable, requires signatories to be accountable for any harmful or discriminatory outcomes of AI systems and for victims of AI-related rights violations to have legal recourse. In addition to the offence of sharing, is now not the time to consider criminalising the creation of sexualised deepfake images without consent? The noble Baroness, Lady Owen, called for this on 13 February in your Lordships’ House, and described deepfake abuse, which is almost wholly misogynistic and now epidemic. It is the new frontier of violence against women.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, my noble friend will know that, in addition to the implementation of the Online Safety Act, we already have plans to bring forward a new data Bill where some of these issues can be debated. We also have ambitions to bring forward a further piece of AI legislation, on which we will have the opportunity to talk about those issues in more detail. He is absolutely right: these are serious issues. They were debated at length during the passage of the previous data protection Bill, and we hope to return to them again.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, is it not the case that Ofcom is letting down the public? What we need is to review the role of Ofcom and other regulators and, if they are failing to do their duties for the public, they should be removed from office.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, Ofcom has a very wide-ranging and serious set of responsibilities. There is no suggestion that it is not carrying out its responsibilities in the run-up to the implementation of the Online Safety Act. We are working very closely with Ofcom and believe that it will carry out those additional functions that we have given it with proper scrutiny and to high standards. Yes, there is a case for looking at all regulators; we have a debate on this on Monday in the House, and I am looking forward to that, but that is a wider issue. For the moment, we have to give Ofcom all the support that we can in implementing a very difficult set of regulations.
Baroness Kidron (CB)
My Lords, the crafting of the Online Safety Act was fraught with exceptions, exclusions and loopholes, the most egregious of which is that regulated companies get safe harbour if they comply with Ofcom’s codes, but Ofcom has provided us with codes that have huge gaps in known harms. What plans do the Government have to fulfil their election promise to strengthen the OSA by ensuring that it protects all children effectively, even the very young, and that it has adequate mechanisms to act swiftly in a crisis, or with an evolving new risk, to stop abuse being whipped up algorithmically and directed at minority groups?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I think that we are in danger of downplaying the significance of the Online Safety Act. It is a trail-blazing Act; the noble Baroness was very much involved in it. Our priority has to be to get that Act implemented. Under it, all user-to-user services and search providers, regardless of size, will have to take swift and effective action against illegal content, including criminal online abuse and posts of a sexual nature. We should get behind Ofcom and the Online Safety Act, and we will then obviously have to keep that Act under review, but we have the tools to do that.
Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)
Does the Minister agree that digital literacy is crucial, so that people are better able to identify often damaging misinformation and fake news? What is the Government’s strategy in that respect?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Baroness makes an important point. Part of Ofcom’s responsibility is to heighten the role of media literacy. We are talking to the Department for Education, and obviously there is a role for schools to be involved in all this—but parents also have to take responsibility for their children, and for their access to these sites. The media literacy role that we have to play goes right throughout society; it is the responsibility of all of us to make sure that people understand, when they access these sites, what they are able to see and how all that can be moderated. Again, the social media companies have a particular responsibility to play in all that. We expect them to uphold their terms of service to make sure that children cannot access the sites that are inappropriate, and we will work with them to make sure that this happens.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
I hope that the Government will look with sympathy at the Private Member’s Bill being brought forward by my noble friend Lady Owen of Alderley Edge, which the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, mentioned. It deals with very important issues.
The Minister will be aware of the arrest of Pavel Durov in France—the founder and chief executive of the messaging application Telegram. I do not expect her to be able to comment on an ongoing investigation, but can she tell your Lordships’ House whether His Majesty’s Government have had any contact with the Government of France in relation to this matter and whether British law enforcement agencies have been involved in the investigation? I appreciate that she may need to write after checking with them.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
I pay tribute to the noble Lord for all the work that he did in getting the Online Safety Act on to the statute book. With regard to Telegram, obviously we cannot comment on issues in another country’s jurisdiction. We have regular contact with all friendly nations dealing with those issues. I cannot comment on whether there has been specific dialogue on the issue of Telegram, but we would normally expect that to be something for the French Government to deal with.
The Lord Bishop of Leicester
My Lords, I recognise absolutely the urgency and importance of legislation in this area, but does the Minister agree that equally important is the work of tackling the prejudice that lies behind online abuse, and the important role therefore of intermediate institutions such as community groups and faith groups in tackling prejudice? What are the Government doing to support those groups in that work?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The right reverend Prelate makes a very important point. I think that we were all pleased with the community reaction to the riots. It was very heartening to see that people were not prepared to have those abhorrent views coming to the fore in their communities. We need to do more to encourage that community response, and we need to work with all of civil society, including the Church, to make sure that happens. We also need to make sure that the police, as they play a community role, make clear what is illegal and take action when actions in a locality are illegal. This is a much broader issue about civil society, and I agree with him.
AI Technology Regulations
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts(4 months, 4 weeks ago)
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Lord Knight of Weymouth
To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to regulate artificial intelligence technologies.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)
My Lords, as set out in the King’s Speech, we will establish legislation to ensure the safe development of AI models by introducing targeted requirements on a handful of companies developing the most powerful AI systems. The legislation will also place the AI Safety Institute on a statutory footing, providing it with a permanent remit to enhance the safety of AI. We will consult publicly on the details of the proposals before bringing forward legislation.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
I thank my noble friend the Minister for her reply and congratulate her on her appointment. There is no doubt that AI will be an important part of the economic growth that is this Government’s priority, but there are also growing concerns about the potential harms being caused by this technology, in particular around the creation of deepfake content to pervert the outcome of elections. What is the Government’s view on that potential harm to democracy, and are there any plans to extend the regulation to political advertising, as recommended in the 2020 report to this House from the Democracy and Digital Technologies Select Committee?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for those good wishes. Of course, he is raising a really important issue of great concern to all of us. During the last election, we felt that the Government were well prepared to ensure the democratic integrity of our UK elections. We did have robust systems in place to protect against interference, through the Defending Democracy Taskforce and the Joint Election and Security Preparedness unit. We continue to work with the Home Office and the security services to assess the impact of that work. Going forward, the Online Safety Act goes further by putting new requirements on social media platforms to swiftly remove illegal misinformation and disinformation, including where it is AI-generated, as soon as it becomes available. We are still assessing the need for further legislation in the light of the latest intelligence, but I assure my noble friend that we take this issue extremely seriously. It affects the future of our democratic process, which I know is vital to all of us.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the creation of an AI opportunities plan, announced by the Government, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, says, we must also tackle the risks. In other jurisdictions across the world, including the EU, AI-driven live facial recognition technology is considered to seriously infringe the right to privacy and have issues with accuracy and bias, and is being banned or restricted for both law enforcement and business use. Will the Government, in their planned AI legislation, provide equivalent safeguards for UK citizens and ensure their trust in new technology?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for that question and for all the work he has done on the AI issue, including his new book, which I am sure is essential reading over the summer for everybody. I should say that several noble Lords in this Chamber have written books on AI, so noble Lords might want to consider that for their holiday reading.
The noble Lord will know that the use and regulation of live facial recognition is for each country to decide. We already have some regulations about it, but it is already governed by data protection, equality and human rights legislation, supplemented by specific police guidance. It is absolutely vital that its use is only when it is necessary, proportionate and fair. We will continue to look at the legislation and at whether privacy is being sufficiently protected. That is an issue that will come forward when the future legislation is being prepared.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, would the Minister agree that the way to regulate AI is principles-based, outcomes-focused and input-understood, and always, where appropriate, remunerated? To that end, what is the Government’s plan to support our creative industries—the musicians, writers and artists who make such a contribution to our economy, society and well-being, and whose IP and copyright are currently being swallowed up by gen AI, with no respect, no consent and no remuneration? Surely it is time to legislate.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Lord raises a really important point here and again I acknowledge his expertise on this issue. It is a complex and challenging area and we understand the importance of it. I can assure the noble Lord that it remains a priority for this Government and that we are determined to make meaningful progress in this area. We believe in both human-centred creativity and the potential of AI to open new creative frontiers. Finding the right balance between innovation and protection for those creators and for the ongoing viability of the creative industries will require thoughtful engagement and consultation. That is one of the things we will do when we consult on the new legislation.
Lord Evans of Weardale (CB)
My Lords, artificial intelligence poses a risk not only to high-profile issues such as existential threats and safety, but also potentially to public standards—a matter on which the new Government have made many statements. Areas such as objectivity and accountability are potentially undermined through the use of AI for official decision-making. Can the Minister confirm that those aspects of the risk posed by AI will also be properly considered as steps are taken to move towards regulation?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Lord is right that there are issues around the risks in the way he has spelled out. There are still problems around the risks to accuracy of some AI systems. We are determined to push forward to protect people from those risks, while recognising the enormous benefits that there are from introducing AI. The noble Lord will know I am sure that it has a number of positive benefits in areas such as the health service, diagnosing patients more quickly—for example, AI can detect up to 13% more breast cancers than humans can. So there are huge advantages, but we must make sure that whatever systems are in place are properly regulated and that the risks are factored into that. Again, that will be an issue we will debate in more detail when the draft legislation comes before us.
Viscount Camrose (Con)
My Lords, let me start by warmly welcoming the Minister to her new, richly deserved Front-Bench post. I know that she will find the job fascinating. I suspect she will find it rather demanding as well, but I look forward to working with her.
I have noted with great interest the Government’s argument that more AI-specific regulation will encourage more investment in AI in the country. That would be most welcome, but what do the Government make of the enormous difference between AI investment to date in the UK versus in the countries of the European Union subject to the AI Act? In the same vein, what do the Government make of Meta’s announcement last week that it is pausing some of its AI training activities because of the cumbersome and not always very clear regulation that is part of the AI Act?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
Again, I thank the noble Viscount for his good wishes and welcome him to his new role. He is right to raise the comparison and, while the EU has introduced comprehensive legislation, we instead want to bring forward highly targeted legislation that focuses on the safety risks posed by the most powerful models. We are of course committed to working closely with the EU on AI and we believe that co-ordinating with international partners —the EU, the US and other global allies—is critical to making sure that these measures are effective.
Lord Hannett of Everton (Lab)
My Lords, I also express my good wishes to the Minister and say that my noble friend Lord Knight has raised an exceptionally timely Question on what is, increasingly, a major challenge for the UK: AI. I was pleased to work with my noble friend recently—or at least a few years ago now—on the Future of Work Commission. My area of concern is work. Can the Minister expand further on the use of regulation and the timeline, if possible? Does she have concerns about the potential loss of employment, despite the many opportunities?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for his question. He is right that there are huge opportunities from applications of AI in the workplace, but also a number of areas of cause for concern. As he knows, there have been very worrying cases where people have been sacked by a computer, sometimes incorrectly. We want to make sure that that is not possible in future and that people have more rights to be dealt with by a human being rather than by a machine.
This was an issue that came up for a great deal of debate in the last data protection Bill, which did not make it through the wash-up, but the new smart data and digital information Bill, announced in the King’s Speech, will hopefully pick up some of those issues and we will look at how we can ensure that workers are protected.
Post Office Horizon
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts(5 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to make this new Government’s first Statement in your Lordships’ House on the Horizon scandal. It was one of the Government’s key manifesto commitments to ensure that full and fair compensation is delivered for every sub-postmaster caught up in the Horizon scandal.
I echo what my colleague Justin Madders MP said in the other place. This has been a huge miscarriage of justice and I am deeply grateful to those sub-postmasters who pursued justice against the odds. We owe them a debt of gratitude for their tireless campaigning. I am also deeply grateful to colleagues in this House, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, and in the other place for their work in righting this wrong.
The Secretary of State for Business and Trade has already met with Alan Bates, Kevan Jones and Nigel Railton to discuss progress and what more can be done. We intend to make another announcement on the redress scheme before the Summer Recess and to help those whose convictions were overturned in the last Parliament.
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, to her place on the Front Bench. I am glad that the Government are picking up with a sense of urgency the last piece of business that went through this House before the general election. At this point we might take a moment to congratulate the tireless campaigner Alan Bates on his recent knighthood. It reflects the will of the people to congratulate him on his tireless campaigning on this matter over 20 years.
The Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Act 2024 was an unprecedented piece of legislation that overturned the convictions of 800-plus postmasters and postmistresses. However, the Act quashes convictions but does not provide compensation. That is what we need to turn our attention to now. Can the Minister please clarify whether the July deadline for the letters offering the final settlement of £600,000 to go out to the 800-plus postmasters and postmistresses will be met? Has the Horizon shortfall scheme been implemented, allowing the additional £75,000 top-up? When the Minister says that this will be done before Recess, does she realise that is next Tuesday?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind comments and welcome him to his new role. I echo his congratulations to Alan Bates on his very well-deserved knighthood.
Obviously, we are awaiting the details of the scheme, but once they are in place the follow-up letters will go out at pace. As the noble Lord knows, in the meantime we are implementing the £75,000 fixed sum awards and we will set out further plans for that in due course. I take note that the beginning of the Recess is next week, and I hope to come back with further information in the meantime.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I also welcome the noble Baroness to her position, which I believe spans two departments. I am not quite sure what she has done to deserve that. I associate myself with the remarks made by the spokesperson for His Majesty’s Opposition and credit him for the energy he brought to this subject in the latter half of the last Parliament.
In those discussions, there was a group of people who are still not covered by what we are doing: the unsuccessful appellants of the case. There was a small but significant number who had the courage to take their case to appeal, lost their appeal and are now hanging outside this scheme. I spoke to the last Government in both this place and the other place about the reasons for that. I understand the reasons around the judicial nature of what has gone on, but can the Minister assure us that these people are not forgotten and that a route is being sought to make sure they get the same of level of redress received by the others as a result of the legislation?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, of course we are mindful of those cases and are carefully watching the numbers that remain in that camp. The usual routes of appeal remain for those cases. In particular, those individuals can apply to the Criminal Cases Review Commission to be referred back to the Court of Appeal, if it considers that
“there is a real possibility that the conviction would not be upheld were a reference to be made”.
I hope that advice will be taken by a number of those individuals.
Lord Sikka (Lab)
My Lords, for nearly 20 years, institutions of government and corporations claimed that there was nothing wrong with the prosecutions of sub-postmasters. Now, of course, we know different. With that in mind, I urge the Minister to appoint an independent inquiry into the 100 or so convictions of sub-postmasters that were secured by the Department for Work and Pensions. In many cases, the affected individuals have passed away and their families are traumatised.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Lord makes a very good point. He is absolutely right about the long delays that took place, and I think we around this House have all accepted that that was unacceptable. I hope that all parts of government have learned the lesson from that. On the individuals and the question of whether there should be an independent inquiry, we believe that the best way to deal with this issue now is through the current arrangements being set up, rather than by having another third party involved. I am sure that all these matters will be taken into account in the eventual recommendations.