Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

With exemplary brevity, Ann Clwyd.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Given the historical child abuse in north Wales, will Ministers now place in the Library the unredacted copy of Lady Macur’s report on the Waterhouse inquiry, which relates to many of the children involved?

[Mr Lidington]

The honest answer is that I am not familiar with the detail as to why an unredacted copy has not been published, but I will undertake to ask for urgent advice on that and will write to the right hon. Lady.

Domestic Abuse Victims in Family Law Courts

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Thursday 15th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Angela Smith]

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for having given us this very important debate, which I think has shown the House at its finest. We have heard not only the arguments, but the stories and the voices that needed to be heard. Claire is here today, and I know how much this means to her, but all of this means nothing until we see effective change.

The extent of the challenge was made clear to me this afternoon by a rather unpleasant tweet sent to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) and me in response to my hon. Friend’s comments about the high quality of the debate; it said:

“man-hating at its finest…well done”.

If that does not spur us on to make the changes necessary to put children first in our family courts, nothing will.

I thank the Minister for his thoughtful and considered response, but I urge him to act as quickly as is reasonably possible to make the changes that we know are necessary to stop children dying at the hands of their father.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House notes the Women’s Aid report entitled Nineteen Child Homicides, published in January 2016; and calls on the Government to review the treatment and experiences of victims of domestic abuse in family law courts.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. About an hour ago the Foreign Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, published a report on the use of UK-manufactured arms in Yemen, accompanied by a press release.

As a member of the press I know that very often, to save time, one reads the press release, not the report. I would be grateful for your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to make it clear that there was a majority report and a minority report. The minority report was tabled by myself and the hon. Member for North East Fife (Stephen Gethins). Nowhere in the press release is the minority report mentioned.

I think it is very misleading to put out a press release which suggests that the report is supported by all the members of the Foreign Affairs Committee. We specifically supported the reports from the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee and the Department for International Development. That is included in the report, and we say quite clearly that the arms export licensing regime has not worked, and we recommend that the UK suspend licences for arms exports to Saudi Arabia that are capable of being used in Yemen, pending the results of an independent United Nations-led inquiry into reports of violations of international humanitarian law, and that the UK issues no further licences. That should have been included in the press release.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

The right hon. Lady knows that I have no jurisdiction over press notices and press releases on Committee reports, but as she has made good use of the Chamber today, I am sure that all the newspapers and the media that are looking on will have taken notice of that, and I am sure it will be highlighted. It is not a point for the Chair, but it is certainly on the record now.

Arrests of Chinese Protesters

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

Although I fully understand the hon. Lady’s feeling that she needs to support her constituents—I fully understand that—we must wait, because that is the sort of democracy we are in. It is an ongoing investigation. The gentleman she refers to is on bail. Let us wait and see what happens. After it is all over I will be more than happy to meet colleagues to discuss this, but we must wait.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I spent most of last week in Geneva chairing a committee of the Inter-Parliamentary Union on the human rights of parliamentarians. Many of the breaches of their rights involved freedom of expression and so on—many of the things that appear to have taken place here last week—and I feel rather embarrassed to be lecturing politicians from other countries about freedom of expression when what was, as I understand it, a peaceful demonstration was treated in such a way.

[Mike Penning]

I met the right hon. Lady just before she went to Geneva so I know exactly why she was there, and I hope it was a very successful visit. Thousands of people did demonstrate peacefully. Three people were arrested. Let us wait and see what the investigation shows. [Interruption.] I trust the police to do an investigation. The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) does not, and he should be ashamed. [Interruption.]

Saudi Penal System

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Let me absolutely emphasise that the Minister for the middle east and the Foreign Secretary make representations regularly not just to the Saudi Government, but to other Governments whose behaviour gives us cause for concern in respect of human rights matters. However, as my hon. Friend acknowledged in his question, there is always a balance to be struck by the Government between—quite rightly—standing up for human rights, and recognising our broader security and other relationships which help to keep British citizens safe.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

When answering questions put by the Foreign Affairs Committee the other week, the permanent secretary to the Foreign Office said that human rights were fairly low down in the list of priorities, or certainly not as far up as the Secretary of State suggests. The UK’s College of Policing provides training courses for Saudi police. What training is being given, and at what price?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Lady’s record of commitment in advancing human rights globally is second to none in this place. I should stress that I am not a Foreign Office Minister, but it is clear to me from all my dealings with the Foreign Office that it places advancing the cause of human rights and protecting fundamental freedoms at the heart of British diplomacy. We are guided by our values first. However, when we are co-operating with countries across the world, it is important for us to recognise—even as we argue first and foremost for respect for human rights—that there are shared security concerns. I think that the particular work that is undertaken in relation to policing, although another Government Department is responsible for it, falls fairly and squarely into that category.

Insurance Companies: Child Abuse Inquiries

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I have campaigned for several decades to expose child abuse in Wales and will continue to do so until all the cover-ups have been exposed and justice has been served. I feel very strongly about this matter because children from my constituency of Cynon Valley in south Wales were taken to Bryn Estyn children’s home in north Wales, 130 miles away from their families and friends. All those young men have been damaged in some way. Their experience affected their future relationships with people. Some of them got into trouble with the law. Of the many young men who gave evidence to the Jillings inquiry, to the police or to the Waterhouse inquiry, a shocking number have committed suicide, have self-harmed or have been killed in mysterious circumstances.

Many people have expressed their concern at the adverse influence that insurance companies can exert on any inquiry or report into complaints about children in the care of local authorities—though that also applies to other areas such as churches, hospitals and so on. This influence, or cover-up, has been used in many previous inquiries—I am talking about the Kincora children’s home in Ireland, the Cartrefle inquiry in Wales, the Jillings inquiry in Wales and the Waterhouse report in Wales—preventing exposure of the problems, often redacting vital information and so failing publicly to uncover the truth for the alleged victims.

In February, the BBC’s “File on 4” carried out an investigation that found evidence that local authorities in England and Wales may have allowed fear of losing insurance cover to influence their approach to child abuse inquiries. There were also cases where insurers attempted to suppress information about abuse allegations.

In Rochdale, the then council leader, Colin Lambert, was shocked by a response from council officers when he proposed an investigation last year into a possible cover-up of child abuse at the Knowl View special school for boys. That involved the alleged sexual assaults by Rochdale’s former MP, the late Cyril Smith and others, in the 1970s, ’80s, and early ’90s. Mr Lambert says he was told that an inquiry could lead to problems with the council’s insurers. He said:

“I can recall a conversation with officers that this could lead to the insurers withdrawing cover…Holding an actual open inquiry would expose exactly who did know what—and therefore the council probably would have been liable. And that then opens up the insurers to claims.”

In Bedfordshire, Tim Hulbert, former director of social services, said that insurers “instructed” him on what to do when he was helping set up an inquiry into alleged child abuse at a children’s home in the early 1990s. He said:

“I had a phone call from the insurers who were anxious to influence the terms of reference of the inquiry so they didn’t actually produce circumstances which would increase the likelihood of claims.”

At another council, Hereford and Worcester, in the same period, former child protection manager Peter McKelvie said council lawyers warned him not to admit the authority’s liability at an inquiry into abuse at Rhydd Court school for boys, near Malvern. He said:

“I could talk about the abuse that children suffered, but I was not to talk about how it could have been prevented.”

Mr McKelvie believed that insurance concerns lay behind the instruction.

There have been a number of inquiries into serious sexual abuse in children’s homes run by the old Clwyd county council. I want to concentrate on two previous inquiry reports whose publication was prevented by the council’s insurers. The first, which became known as the Cartrefle report in 1992, was an investigation undertaken by Detective Inspector Cronin of North Wales police into allegations of sexual abuse at Cartrefle. Later reports found that Cronin undertook a thorough investigation to the best of his abilities, but that the investigation was restricted by a lack of co-operation by children’s services and social services. Cronin’s report found insufficient evidence to undertake a successful prosecution, but it was subsequently submitted to the council.

In 1992, Clwyd council was told by Municipal Mutual Insurance Ltd, which now operates under the name of Zurich Municipal, that publication of the first report, the Cartrefle inquiry, could amount to a waiver of public interest immunity or privilege and could become a contempt of court case in view of anticipated forthcoming criminal proceedings arising from the abuse.

The second inquiry, chaired by John Jillings, tried again to investigate abuse in Clwyd care homes after being commissioned by Clwyd county council in 1994. The panel met with considerable opposition over the course of its inquiry. For instance, the then newly appointed North Wales chief constable refused to meet the inquiry or help with access to the police major incident database. Some 130 boxes of material handed over by the council to the police were not made available to the panel. The Jillings inquiry said in 1994:

“We were disappointed at the apparent impossibility of obtaining a breakdown of data. We are unable to identify the overall extent of the allegations received by the police in the many witness statements which they took.”

In addition, the council did not allow the inquiry to place a notice in the local press seeking information, because this was considered unacceptable to the insurers. It is interesting that the insurers of the county council were also the insurers of North Wales police.

This resulted in the need to collect 70 duplicate and additional witness statements. I put a notice in my local paper, and six young men answered the advert. I took detailed statements from four of them who wanted to talk to me. I took a long time to interview them individually, and I found the allegations that they made and the descriptions of their experiences totally emotionally draining. If I felt like that, it is impossible to imagine what their feelings were.

The Jillings report commissioned at the time laid bare the north Wales child abuse scandal. It found a child care system in which physical and sexual violence were common, from beatings and bullying to indecent assault and rape. Children who complained of abuse were not believed or were punished for making false allegations. The report stated that the number of children who were abused was not clear, but at least 12 former residents were found to have died from unnatural causes.

The report stated that some staff linked to abuse may have been allowed to resign or retire early. It stated that allegations involving famous names and paedophile rings were beyond its remit and something best addressed by a potential later public inquiry. It concluded that its panel members had considered quitting before publication, due to

“the considerable constraints placed upon us.”

The final report’s appendices included limited copies of the key witness statements taken by North Wales police during their earlier investigation.

Despite such obstructions, the panel stuck to its brief to investigate child care in Clwyd, in the wake of a number of allegations and court cases involving care workers. Most of the allegations covered the period from 1980 to 1988, and a four-year police inquiry saw 2,600 statements taken and 300 cases sent to the Crown Prosecution Service. Eventually, eight men were charged and six were convicted.

Mr Jillings has made clear what he discovered back then:

“What we found was horrific and on a significant scale. If the events in children’s homes in North Wales were to be translated into a film, Oliver Twist would seem relatively benign.”

According to Jillings, the scale of what happened and how it was allowed

“are a disgrace, and stain on the history of child care in this country.”

Had the report been published at the time, it would have sounded alarm bells and things would have moved much faster.

The report was not published because of concerns over libel, and because of legal advice and concerns from the council’s insurers, Municipal Mutual Insurance, which warned that publication would encourage court cases and compensation claims. The report, which was limited to 12 copies only, was virtually unseen by committee or council members and was pulped. The insurers even suggested that the chair of the council’s social services committee, Malcolm King—a brave and determined whistleblower—should be sacked if he spoke out. They wrote to the council:

“Draconian as it may seem, you may have to consider with the elected members whether they wish to remove him from office if he insists on having the freedom to speak”.

In November 2012 Malcolm King said:

“Because it was suppressed, the lessons of the Jillings report were not learned. It was the exchange of financial safety for the safety of real people. It was one of the most shameful parts of recent history.”

In 1996, just before William Hague announced the Waterhouse inquiry, I tabled four early-day motions to put on the record what had allegedly happened in north Wales, because I had seen the Jillings report. To do that, I had to block parliamentary business for two nights running. As Members can imagine, I got into considerable trouble with my Chief Whip, as well as with Whips from other parties. I re-tabled one EDM in November 2012, which contained the gist of the complaint at the time. Back then, however, the subject disappeared from the Order Paper. The moment the Waterhouse inquiry was announced in Parliament, discussion of these matters in this place was shut down for four years. That is why I thought it so important at the time to table the EDMs, so that people would understand the seriousness of the allegations.

It was not until July 2013 that a redacted version of the Jillings report was finally published, after a request by the BBC under the Freedom of Information Act. Flintshire County Council had previously uncovered one copy of the report in its archive. The six north Wales councils took legal advice on whether it could be made available. That was after demands by myself and many others for the report to be published after the Jimmy Savile sexual abuse scandal came to light.

I want to finish by discussing the Waterhouse inquiry. At the time, it was

“the biggest investigation ever held in Britain into allegations of physical, sexual and emotional abuse of children who passed through the care system”.

The findings, which were published in February 2000, concluded:

“Widespread sexual abuse of boys occurred in children’s residential establishments in Clwyd between 1974 and 1990. There were some incidents of sexual abuse of girl residents in these establishments but they were comparatively rare.”

The Waterhouse inquiry stated that the insurers had

“acted throughout with the honourable intention”

of preventing the council from acting in such a way that they would be forced to repudiate liability for claims. However, during the Waterhouse inquiry, the insurers’ representatives accepted that they went too far and

“that at times the tone of the correspondence on their behalf”—

that is, the insurers’—

“was intemperate and went too far in the demands made of the Council.  They accepted also that their approach to the dilemma of striking a balance between the duty of a council to seek the truth and identify reforms on one hand and its duty to protect its financial interests on the other, may be open to criticism.”

The inquiry made 72 recommendations for changes, constituting a massive overhaul of the way in which children in care are dealt with by local councils, social services and the police. Recommendations 71 and 72 called for the Law Commission to investigate the legal issues arising from the clear conflict of interest between insurers and the insured. In July 2004, The Law Commission published a 220-page report, “In the Public Interest: Publication of Local Authority Inquiry Reports”—No. 289. That very thorough report makes two principal recommendations for reform: first, to amend the law of qualified privilege; and secondly, to create a new power of inquiry. The report found that

“insurers do in practice ‘lean’ in some way on authorities to prevent publication when reports may reveal admissions of liability”.

It said:

“The practical difficulty is that insurers and local authorities are in a market. If the risk for the insurers becomes too great, they might either raise premiums so that it is uneconomic for authorities to pay them or they might walk away from the business altogether.”

The report also points out that although it investigates local authorities and their insurance issues, in principle the same issues can arise in relation to any public body providing a public service, other than central Government. While the Law Commission report was presented to Parliament and accepted, it was not implemented.

It is a matter of concern that insurance companies can still exert adverse influence on any inquiry or report on complaints about children in the care of local authorities. As Tim Hulbert, former director of social services in Bedfordshire, explained in a report on the BBC’s “File on 4”,

“There is actually a conflict between the responsibilities of a local authority to safeguard its finances, which represents the interests of the insurers amongst other people, and the responsibility to protect children in whatever circumstances.”

He went on to say:

“For that reason, it needs to be dealt with as part of the whole examination of what influences have allowed the cover-ups of child abuse for so long.”

While we wait to see what comes out of the Macur review, I fear that the Goddard inquiry will not have access to that uncompleted review and may not have access to all previous unredacted local authority inquiry reports.

It is now high time—I hope the Minister agrees—that the Government implemented the Law Commission’s recommendations and brought forward a Bill to reform insurance company influence. I hope that in future any council that wants to publish a report, on whatever subject, will be protected from its own insurers. This matter has not yet been resolved and needs to be put right.

Finally, I pay tribute to Alison Taylor, a residential care worker who was one of the first whistleblowers in Gwynedd, and to Councillor Malcolm King, who was the chair of social services at Clwyd County Council. They were both outstandingly brave, and Alison Taylor was sacked because nobody believed her at the time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

I can happily tell the hon. Gentleman that we have no plans to leave the convention. We are signed up to it, along with the other 46 nations, but where we see the need for change, we will ensure that those changes take place, in the same way that changes took place in Brighton last month.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

5. What recent representations he has received on the operation of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.

[Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

We receive regular correspondence on the operation of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Following consultation and consideration of the representations received, the Government have introduced a package of reforms to the Act, through the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which recently received Royal Assent.

[Ann Clwyd]

Although I welcome the changes made in the 2012 Act, will the hon. Gentleman consider some loopholes that might be closed? A few months ago I brought up the case in the Chamber of a constituent, an ex-miner who had been fined 28 years ago for stealing a bag of coal in the middle of the miners’ strike. He subsequently tried for a job in a care home as a groundsman. He was offered the job, but it was then withdrawn. That seems ridiculous, because the job had nothing directly to do with the people in the care home, and he had not been accused of—

[Mr Speaker]

We are extremely grateful to the right hon. Lady, but is there a question mark coming?

[Ann Clwyd]

I started with a question mark, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

It is a good idea to finish with one!

[Ann Clwyd]

I am very pleased to finish with one, Mr Speaker. The CRB check should not apply in the case of my constituent, so will the hon. Gentleman look at the loopholes?

Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nick Herbert]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Finding a job on release plays a significant part in reducing the reoffending of prisoners. That is why we have worked with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that prisoners being released who are eligible for jobseeker’s allowance will be mandated immediately on to the Work programme. We are also re-commissioning learning and skills in prisons. One of the main objectives is to ensure that learning focuses far more on employability, and our employers forum will encourage employers of all sizes.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

A constituent of mine aged 60 was offered a job recently as a handyman in a care home and his Criminal Records Bureau check was called for. It showed that he stole a bag of coal in 1983, 28 years ago, and the job offer was withdrawn. I would allege that this had no relevance at all to the job that he was offered, so will the Government look again at the use of CRB checks?

[Nick Herbert]

We are reviewing the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. We have to strike the right balance between protecting the public and ensuring that those whom we want to resettle in society and get the right kind of work are able to do so.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 2, page 100, line 10, leave out clause 152.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 154, page 100, line 17, at end insert—

‘(a) A specialist unit shall be established within the Crown Prosecution Service, reporting to the Director of Public Prosecutions, so as to ensure minimal delay in decisions relating to arrest warrants issued under this section.

(b) A specialist unit shall be established within the Metropolitan Police so as to ensure minimal delay in the issuing of arrest warrants under this section.’.

[Ann Clwyd]

The amendment would remove clause 152. At the outset, I should like to say that whatever one’s views on the changes proposed by the clause, it should not be part of the Bill. It is a justice measure in a Home Office Bill, which is already packed. It would be better if the Government had not crow-barred it into the Bill. However, I am glad that we have an opportunity to debate the measure, although we cannot debate it to the extent that other Members and I would have liked.

The Government propose to change the law on the procedure for obtaining an arrest warrant in a private prosecution in a universal jurisdiction case. Such cases are concerned with the gravest crimes against humanity: war crimes, torture, genocide and so on. The Government propose that the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions should be required before any such arrest warrant can be issued.

My area of interest is human rights, so it is on the human rights implications of the clause that I shall focus. I object to the clause and the Government’s proposals because they will undermine the UK’s standing on international human rights issues. The current situation in Libya and recent events there and elsewhere in north Africa and the middle east provide a helpful context for the debate. For example, if anyone from Gaddafi’s regime—his sons or other senior political and military cohorts—tries to visit the UK at some point in future, they will be affected by this change in the law.

The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and other Ministers have been strong in their condemnation of Gaddafi, in their calls for him to face justice, and in their support for the International Criminal Court investigation. I agree with them. The best place for Gaddafi to end up is in front of a court on an ICC indictment for crimes against humanity. However, the existence of the ICC does not absolve us of responsibility to ensure that those most serious of crimes can be prosecuted within our jurisdiction.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the current situation is the best one, because it keeps the Government away from allegations of political bias in cases in which arrests are sought for a court in this country? Clause 152 will bring every prosecution into the political orbit, where it certainly should not be.

[Ann Clwyd]

My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head as usual, and I shall develop that argument in a few minutes.

We still have obligations under the Geneva conventions —they are obligations, and not discretions or permissions —to bring before a court persons suspected of committing the gravest crimes against humanity when we are able to do so. This change in the law will undermine our commitment to those Geneva convention obligations.

Why, then, are the Government seeking to change the law? The Justice Secretary, yesterday, and the Foreign Secretary, last Thursday, set out clearly in replies to questions in the Chamber the reasons why the Government are seeking to do so. The first reason that they gave was that it is too easy to obtain an arrest warrant. They suggested that anyone could turn up on a frivolous pretext, spin a yarn to the court and walk away with an arrest warrant—put a penny in the slot and out comes a warrant! I cannot believe that that argument has carried any weight with anyone at all.

[Dr Huppert]

I share the right hon. Lady’s deep interest in human rights and I absolutely accept her point. May I, however, go back to what she was saying earlier about the arrest process? Does not she accept that a prosecution is more important than an arrest, and that whether or not the clause is passed, the Attorney-General’s consent will still be required for a prosecution, making the issue a political one? Are we not having the wrong debate? Should not we be debating the Attorney-General’s role in private prosecutions?

[Ann Clwyd]

That is certainly a subject for future debate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman when he said in Committee:

“I am not persuaded that there is a need for change…I do not think that a sufficiently strong case has been made about why the current system is not working.”––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 17 February 2011; c. 684.]

I hope that he still holds that view.

[Mr Llwyd]

On the question of granting a warrant on the basis of flimsy evidence, is the right hon. Lady aware that, according to the Director of Public Prosecutions, there have been only 10 applications in the past 10 years, of which only two were granted?

[Ann Clwyd]

That was to have been my very next point. It is amazing that in the past 10 years, there have been just two successful applications for arrest warrants, and that they were then either withdrawn or not acted on.

[Michael Ellis]

Does not that 80% failure rate indicate that people have been making frivolous and vexatious applications? Also, is it not right that proper evidence should be tendered to a court or other authority before the issue of an arrest warrant that could have international ramifications?

[Ann Clwyd]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware of the facts. The fact that there have been 10 applications and that only two were granted means that the judges who currently implement this legislation are absolutely spot on. They do not take frivolous applications—quite the contrary: they are only too careful. They are experienced judges, not ordinary magistrates. The current system works comparatively well, and no one can point to any frivolous applications.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend might be aware that a document issued by the Liberal Democrats in June last year stated:

“The issue of the arrest warrant for a war crime is decided only by specialist legally qualified magistrates such as the most senior district judge at Westminster Magistrates’ Court. They are well qualified to decide whether the high threshold of evidence, liability and jurisdiction has been met and that no immunity applies…The removal of the right of public prosecution in such cases would have the effect of turning our country into a safe transit point for war criminals, torturers and those guilty of genocide from all over the world.”

[Ann Clwyd]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. Indeed, all the human rights organisations, including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Redress and Justice are opposed to this change in the law.

In Committee, the Minister conceded:

“The problem is not that large numbers of warrants are being issued—the Government are aware of only two”.––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 17 February 2011; c. 682.]

It is incredible that the Government think that that is too many, and that there should be rather fewer. The fact that two arrest warrants have been granted in 10 years should be a matter of concern, not because it is too many but because it is too few.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I agree with my right hon. Friend that war crimes and crimes against humanity are horrific, but does she really think it just that an arrest warrant was issued against Tzipi Livni who was here seriously to negotiate peace between Israelis and Palestinians and to save lives?

[Ann Clwyd]

Well, the other reason the Government gave for the change in the law is, I suppose, the real reason, in respect of which my hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head: it is the Tzipi Livni case. The Government, as the Foreign Secretary and the Justice Secretary explained, are changing the law because of an Israeli politician. Changing the law at the request of a foreign Government does not, I would argue, enhance our ability to act as an international peace broker. It does exactly the opposite by undermining our credibility to speak as a country that takes human rights seriously.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is it not incongruous that at the same time as we continue to speak here about human rights, justice and democracy in the middle east, we also have to move this particular amendment?

[Ann Clwyd]

Indeed. I think it sends the wrong signal at this particular time. I hope I can persuade many more hon. Members of the force of my argument.

In today’s The Guardian online, there is an article, stating that coalition criminal justice plans

“make a mockery of universal jurisdiction”.

It continues:

“Giving suspects from ‘protected countries’ immunity from war crimes arrests would turn the UK into a safe haven for suspects”.

That was written by an eminent human rights lawyer, Daniel Machower. He goes on to say:

“A legal case for changing the current judicial process, through the senior district judge, has not been made out and parliament is entitled to reject the proposed change on that basis alone.”

I have my own views on the Tzipi Livni case. I happen to regard the crimes documented in the Goldstone report as pretty damning. The very strength of the current system, however, is that it does not matter what my view is: it is a decision taken by a court without political considerations and on the basis of the evidence alone. That is the system that the Government are going to undermine.

[Mr Offord]

The right hon. Lady claims that accusations against an individual are mentioned in the Goldstone report, but she also talks about people having immunity in this country. What evidential basis does she have for presuming to believe that to be true?

[Ann Clwyd]

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is talking about—and I doubt whether he does either.

The Opposition Front-Bench team has tabled an amendment proposing to create new units in the Crown Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan police. As the Minister observed in Committee, however, these units already exist for war crimes investigations. The fact that they already exist, and have done for some time, helps to show us what will happen when the Director of Public Prosecutions becomes a gatekeeper for all universal jurisdiction cases: nothing. Yes, nothing will happen. As we learned from a report in The Guardian last month and the work of the all-party group on the prevention of genocide, nearly 400 war criminals are believed to be in the UK right now—from Iraq, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Rwanda, Zimbabwe and the Congo. How many prosecutions have there been? One—just one, which is the Zardad case.

I conclude here because this is the core of my case. The clause is important because it communicates our attitude towards crimes against humanity and towards international justice.

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

Will my right hon. Friend allow me to intervene?

[Ann Clwyd]

I am concluding; I am sorry.

It is already too hard to try to bring war criminals to justice. Sadly, there are already too few prosecutions. Let us not make it even harder.

[Michael Ellis]

It might be useful to inject some legal realism into the debate. At present the law in England and Wales provides for no real evidential threshold, and contains no requirement for a prosecutor to check the credibility of a claim before an arrest warrant is issued. In other words, all that is required is for an individual to go into a police station or the equivalent and make an allegation. That allegation amounts to a prima facie case: the establishment of a prime facie case is the smallest burden that must be borne. Attention-seeking lawyers and campaign groups are being given an opportunity to use the arrest warrant process as a campaign tool. To describe it as providing immunity from prosecution is completely wrong in law, in fact and in degree, and if newspapers have described it thus they are simply wrong.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clarke]

I will check with the DPP, but I am almost certain he will confirm that that is the case, because I have had assurances from his officials that they are ready to act very quickly. In a proper case, they should act quickly and a warrant should be issued, but at present the fact that warrants can be comparatively easily sought and occasionally obtained is deterring people from coming to this country who are politically controversial but probably not guilty of any war crime or crime against humanity. Indeed, over the years attempts have been made to arrest people such as Henry Kissinger.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

The Foreign Secretary gave a very direct answer to my question last week on the same subject. He explained that the Government are changing the law in order to be able to talk to the Israeli politician Tzipi Livni. Does the Justice Secretary really think the request of one foreign Government is a good enough reason for changing the entire law in the UK?

[Mr Clarke]

The case of Tzipi Livni is a very good example of why the law needed to be changed. She was the leader of the opposition when an attempt was made to get an arrest warrant. It was believed she was in this country, but in fact she was not. However, she was a leading Israeli politician coming here for political purposes, and it is in the interests of our country that we have negotiations and discussions with a wide range of political representatives from many countries. If guilty of war crimes, they will be prosecuted, but we put people off coming here if they are liable to have publicity-conscious arrest warrants served on them.

Courts Service Estate

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Djanogly]

The answer is yes, in both cases.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

The shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), asked whether the Minister would share with the rest of us his calculations on travel times. I assume that he will also put his answer in the Library, and I would like him to confirm that. There will be considerable anger in the Cynon Valley about the decision to close the Aberdare courthouse, and I do not know where the Minister’s calculations on travel times have come from. I invite him to join me on a bus through the Cynon valley, to find out that from many of those areas it is impossible to reach Merthyr Tydfil within an hour.

[Mr Djanogly]

Travel times were worked out by the Courts Service. The difficulty is that times will vary from one part of an hon. Member’s constituency to another, so it is the average times that have to be taken into account.