Alun Cairns
Main Page: Alun Cairns (Conservative - Vale of Glamorgan)
Valerie Vaz
My hon. Friend makes an important point, and I absolutely agree with her. I should also like to flag up my concern that after the move to Bristol, S4C may be made to broadcast from there to save costs rather than from Wales.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
I am startled by the claim that S4C could be broadcast from Bristol. Is the hon. Lady telling me that that is official Labour party policy?
Valerie Vaz
Oh dear. I thought that the hon. Gentleman was listening. I was voicing not official party policy, but my concerns. I tend to look at the future and worry about things. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that such a move is a possibility. It is not one with which I agree. People have actually starved to secure the channel S4C, and it should remain in Wales, which is the most wonderful country. Let me press on now.
Each generation has seen the BBC achieving new successes. Programmes such as “Doctor Who” have been reworked and old legends such as “Merlin” have been broadcast. Savings can be found by curbing the excessive salaries of the so-called stars.
Alun Cairns
Does my hon. Friend think that the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) meant Bristol, Tennessee or Bristol in Avon?
Glyn Davies
I think I will pass on that one.
My third point is about political coverage in Wales. The new controller of BBC Wales has produced a plan for the future. On the face of it, the plan is a worry for politicians, particularly those based here in Westminster. It looks as if political coverage in Wales, particularly of politics in Westminster, will be reduced. If that happened, it would be a huge concern for me. I am reassured that it will not. We will have to wait and see the extent to which transferring the production of programmes from BBC Wales to the private sector happens. I gather that one programme in particular will be commissioned by the private sector. Let us wait and see how it works out and whether it delivers the same level of political coverage that we have been used to.
My feeling—this is a criticism I have made of the BBC in the past and I have heard Opposition Members express the same concern—is that coverage of Westminster politics is not as strong as it should be. It is more convenient for the BBC, given that it is located in Cardiff, to contact Members of the National Assembly and to relate to them. It is more difficult for it relate to Members of Parliament. It places a responsibility on us to make sure that we are noticed and that the BBC reports what we do. It is a serious concern, and I believe that over the next couple of years, we will have to look at whether the changes to the BBC in Cardiff actually deliver what the controller tells us they are going to deliver. I hope that our fears will not prove to be worth being overly concerned about.
There is no doubt that the BBC faces a huge challenge. The reductions in the licence fee and in the investment that the BBC can make are going to mean an awful lot of changes, but £3.5 billion is a huge amount of money. My view is that the BBC will return to the swaggering, confident self it used to be but has perhaps not been for the last couple of years, so that I can start to feel comfortable complaining about the BBC again. I look forward to regaining some of the pleasure I have often taken from that.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
It is simplistic to complain only about the cuts the BBC is facing. We need to take into account the broader economic perspective. Instead of adopting the top-down approach of considering where savings can be made, our starting point should be to ask the following question: what do we want the BBC to do and to achieve? Let me say at the outset that I am a strong supporter of the BBC. The quality of its output is first class, and it covers subjects that no commercial operator would consider addressing. It responds positively to education and social needs and demands. As a public service broadcaster, it ticks all the boxes and more. However, in doing the “and more” part, does it stifle competition and squeeze out competitors, thereby reducing plurality of provision? A guaranteed licence fee income of £3.5 billion and a total income of £5 billion puts the BBC in a strongly favourable position compared with providers who have to deal with fluctuating advertising income and economic unpredictability.
Critics of BBC budget cuts need to recognise that it may well be able to operate more efficiently in some of the many areas of its output, and, indeed, that it might not need to operate in all those areas, as other providers may be better placed to cover them. To the credit of the BBC—and the Secretary of State for Wales—freezing the licence fee has resulted in its being forced to look at what it does, and the Delivering Quality First agenda is the outcome, although I would suggest that it should be the start of its reaching the desired outcome.
I want the BBC to start by focusing on what other providers might do and what capacity they may have for providing entertainment and information, as the BBC must ask itself how it can ensure that it strikes an appropriate balance in services and subject areas while representing all parts of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom. How can it contribute to innovation, rather than squeeze out competition? Should it operate in every area where there are commercial alternatives, such as in the market that Radio 1 covers? Plurality and news output to target audiences must be considered of course, but do we need to continue with the same traditional approach?
It may be unfashionable to mention James Murdoch at present, and I would condemn him if he were to be found guilty of any of the allegations that have been made.
Alun Cairns
If the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) wants to intervene on that point, I will happily respond.
James Murdoch has highlighted that when some years ago Radio 2 was losing its target audience of 24 to 45-year-olds, it paid millions of pounds to recruit Jonathan Ross to try to regain those listeners even though commercial operators already addressed that audience. If that is not an example of the BBC squeezing out competition, I do not know what is.
Does it make sense for the BBC to cover sporting events that ITV, Channels 4 or 5 or Sky would like to broadcast? I agree that we need to look at what should be free to air and whether pay per view is appropriate in all areas, but let us consider the example of Formula 1. The BBC has paid £300 million to screen Formula 1 over a five-year period. That amounts to £3 million per race, yet Sky will also broadcast every race. The partnership between Sky and the BBC is a significant and positive step forward, as it is certainly better than the previous situation of their competing outright, but two issues remain unresolved. First, could not ITV, Channels 4 or 5 or another broadcaster screen that popular sport? Secondly, the simple fact of the BBC bidding with public money will drive up the price and squeeze opportunities for others.
I recognise that the quality of the BBC can give it an edge over other broadcasters, but I remind Members that the BBC covered test match cricket for a long time, but the greatest innovations in the coverage of the sport occurred when the broadcasting rights were won by Channel 4 and then Sky, who took coverage to a much more sophisticated level. Innovations such as Hawk-Eye were introduced and a more informal approach to cricket attracted more viewers and new audiences.
I pay tribute to the BBC’s website coverage, which has set the standard for such output. It covers national and regional news in a structured way, and addresses subject matters across the spectrum from hard news to social gossip. It is an excellent example of the innovation the BBC can achieve. Yet if it continues to dominate this part of the market, that could prevent other providers—newspapers, broadcasters or even new entrants—from having the opportunity to innovate. The BBC set excellent standards, but it needs to consider whether there should be a subsequent, partial withdrawal when the market has matured.
I strongly support the BBC’s activities in areas where the market cannot provide. News in general is extremely important, and without the BBC’s news activities in many parts of the UK there simply would not be any coverage of significant news or social or cultural events. Wales and Scotland are of particular relevance in this regard, especially with the advent of devolution.
Other Members have talked about local television, so I shall now briefly address a parochial issue. The UK press does not always cover Wales as adequately as it should. This is where the BBC comes into its own of course, but in Wales its implementation of the Delivering Quality First agenda involves a squeeze on its political coverage. It argues that news is not being cut under the current proposals, yet there is a reduction in political output. Politics is news, so there is obviously a cut to news.
Although the BBC has, to its credit, responded well to devolution, that should not be achieved at the cost of coverage of non-devolved matters. Over recent years, there has been a trend to reduce political coverage on mainstream news outlets. Welsh questions have been covered on a mainstream outlet in Wales since 1987, but under current proposals that will no longer be the case.
Glyn Davies
Does my hon. Friend agree that Members of all parties must not stand back on this issue? Instead, we must raise our voices to complain, as a former controller of the BBC has urged, so that we in Wales get the coverage we deserve?
Alun Cairns
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, and in his speech he highlighted that very point, and I underline it and pay tribute to it. Let us all have confidence about complaining to the BBC when we are unhappy so that it can respond. If we do not air issues and concerns, how will the BBC know about them?
I recognise that we, as politicians, are not the most popular people in the world. I would suggest, however, that some of the issues we debate are at least sometimes relevant to mainstream outlets in the nations and regions of the UK. There is no proposal to change coverage on the English regional output—granted, there will be local changes to BBC radio in England, but in Wales that situation does not exist.
While I am discussing Wales-related issues, I want to join my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) in recognising the deal on S4C and I pay tribute to the BBC and the Secretary of State for delivering what he promised at the outset: a channel that was well funded, secure in its funding for the future and operationally and editorially independent. There were many sceptics in the debate, but even they have now been won over. I support the tribute that was paid to Elan Closs Stephens and to the chairman of S4C, Huw Jones, at the end of the negotiations, despite some of the difficult tensions among the membership of the authority.
Let me return to the broader issues. I know that the BBC has made significant progress on salary levels, but there remains scope for some further progress, particularly in relation to talent. I know that Graham Norton’s deal reduced from £16.9 million over three years to £4 million over two.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, especially as I just came into the Chamber a few minutes ago. He talks about salaries at the BBC. Would he take this opportunity to make a comment about Jeremy Clarkson and say something about responsibilities coming with salaries?
Alun Cairns
I would certainly underline that point, but we should bear the context in mind. I did not see the broadcast and although I have read some reports about it, I would like to watch it before I comment specifically. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will refer to it when he sums up.
I was talking about salary levels and progress has been made, but Graham Norton still earns £4 million over two years. I am sure that if that amount was squeezed further, he probably would not walk. Reference has already been made to the fact that David Dimbleby earns £15,000 per episode. Anne Robinson’s salary was cut from £4 million over two years to £2 million over two years. Demand for such roles clearly outstrips supply and the BBC has a fantastic ability in developing talent. It generates the supply as well as satisfying the demand. There is no excuse for paying such salaries to those people.
Julian Smith
Does my hon. Friend agree that work needs to be done to ensure that management salaries at the BBC in London and the south are much more equitable with management salaries and executive salaries in the north?
Alun Cairns
I am grateful for that point. The ultimate test is transparency and that is an area where the BBC has taken some small steps. For comparison, the agenda of the Government as regards local authorities, where every invoice in excess of £500 is published, leads me to expect the BBC to go that way, too. That greater transparency would allow people to judge and would better inform the BBC about its judgments and, no doubt, misjudgments, on occasion.
In the minute I have left, let me refer to Professor Anthony King’s report about how the BBC must better reflect the nations and regions of the United Kingdom on the network. It has taken some positive steps. For example, “Doctor Who” has been highlighted in this debate and it is now filmed and produced in Cardiff. There is a significant shift to Salford, too, but that does not get away from the fact that television from the nations and regions of the UK about the nations and regions of the UK should be broadcast on the network. Let me highlight, for example, “Boys from the Blackstuff”, a pioneering programme about Merseyside that educated significant numbers of people about some of the culture there. “Auf Wiedersehen, Pet” was a programme that made the north-east attractive to many people, and it brought it out through the characters. We need to see more of that sort of innovation and I am grateful to have had the opportunity to highlight it.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith). I am very much enjoying all this football banter between northern Members of Parliament and finding out about all these broadcasters whom I had not heard of, such as Ali Brownlew and Toby Foster. I am going to have to tune into some local radio services in the north-east. Obviously, they provide a first-class service; we would not expect anything else from local radio in the north-east.
Hon. Members might be surprised to hear that I am not going to speak about local services. I am going to speak about national services, but not those provided by the wonderful Radio 4, Radio 2 and Radio 1. I am going to talk about the impact of the cut on national services in Scotland. We will experience a disproportionate cut compared with that across the United Kingdom. Scotland is not a region—it is a nation, and a nation needs a specific type of broadcasting capability available to it. We have our own national Parliament, which as everybody knows has many significant legislative powers. We have our own civic institutions, we have our own legal system and we provide education and health services entirely differently from the rest of the UK. As everyone knows, we have our own national culture and we require that to be reported in a remarkably different way from any other region in the United Kingdom. That is why it is absolutely critical that we get the correct resources to ensure that our nation is served adequately.
Alun Cairns
Does the hon. Gentleman feel that Wales, which is also a nation in its own right, has the same needs as Scotland?
Pete Wishart
Yes, is the short answer. I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for turning up today. There are two Welsh Conservative Members of Parliament present and we are hearing from Members from right across the United Kingdom, but is it not unfortunate that other than the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton), who is here on Whip’s duty, there is not one of the 40 Labour Members from Scotland here to debate such an important and significant issue as the BBC in Scotland? It is a real tragedy that they would rather turn up and vote on English issues than discuss issues of real importance for the people of Scotland.
We need a BBC that is properly resourced to cover adequately what is happening in England, but what is happening is that one nation’s BBC services are being protected at the expense of another’s. Lots of people in Scotland like Radio 4, and when I am in London I put the Today programme on, but what we learn from the Today programme is usually about the NHS in England and education in England and Wales. I like hearing about the NHS in England and finding out what is going on within the education services in England and Wales, but that means absolutely nothing to me or my constituents. We are continually served up a diet of UK news that is totally inconsequential to Scotland.
The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) made this point and it was also pointed out by Anthony King, who produced a very good and detailed report on how the BBC broadcasts in the nations and regions. It still has things absolutely wrong.
Alun Cairns
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that although the BBC has taken a positive step, partly to respond to Anthony King, by moving to other parts of the UK for broadcasting, nothing replaces the broadcasting of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish issues on the network as well?
Pete Wishart
Absolutely. That was a key feature of the King report. He said that a lot was being lost in relation to Scotland and Wales when it came to national news reporting. Sometimes, we got the funny little story at the end about going up to Loch Ness or Snowdon or somewhere and giving an amusing little anecdote to end the news, but in terms of significant reporting of news concerning Scotland, Wales and even the English regions, there was absolutely nothing.
The King report made another important point, which the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan will recall. Some English journalists had to be sent on devolution training so that they would start to understand the difference between devolved powers and reserved powers and work out how to communicate that to the rest of the nation. They still get it absolutely wrong sometimes. We get it so often that we are becoming a little tired of it in Scotland and, presumably, in Wales and possibly in some of the English regions.
A particular type of approach is required when broadcasting for a nation; we have very different requirements, in terms of how the everyday experiences of the Scottish people are reflected and reported, and how the news agenda is shaped. That is why the cuts will have a disproportionate impact on the people of Scotland. Let me detail what we will experience in Scotland. One in 10 jobs at BBC Scotland is to be lost, and there is to be a reduction of about 16% in the total budget. BBC Scotland’s news operation and support staff will be hit hardest by the cuts. Between 100 and 120 jobs will be lost at the Pacific Quay headquarters in Glasgow by 2016-17. It is feared that production operations, and online and Gaelic services, and perhaps sport, will be cut and hurt. BBC Scotland’s news operation is to lose 30 jobs; 20 jobs will be lost at Radio Scotland. Craft and production will shelve 35 jobs, and operations and support will lose another 30. The whole future of the BBC symphony orchestra is still under review. That is on top of efficiency savings that will cost some 20 jobs.
The future of BBC Scotland’s “Newsnight Scotland” programme—affectionately known as “Newsnicht” down here—is under threat. It is an important feature of the news output and agenda in Scotland. It gives us the only opportunity that we get in the evening to go over, debate, and comment on what has emerged during the day in the Scottish Parliament, elsewhere in Scotland, or down here. I enjoy turning up at 11 o’clock in the evening to contribute to “Newsnicht”.
The problem with “Newsnight Scotland” is that although there has been an assurance from the BBC that it will be maintained, BBC 2 will be making a transition to high-definition television, and there is not the capability or opportunity for opt-outs for the nations or the regions. If the BBC is listening to this, I hope that it will tell us what it will do to ensure that we continue to get “Newsnight Scotland”, because it is a critical feature to so many people who are interested in the daily political and cultural diet in Scotland.
The Broadcasting Entertainment Cinematograph and Theatre Union in Scotland says that the scale of the cuts means that it will be almost impossible to ensure that the job losses will happen through voluntary redundancies; compulsory redundancies are likely. It is so concerned about the scale of the cuts in Scotland that industrial action has been talked about, and might be a feature, unless we get the problem resolved.
People are taking the issue into their own hands in other ways, too. There is a fantastic campaign about “introducing…”, which is a little programme on Radio 1 on a Monday evening, from 10 pm to 12 midnight. There is “introducing…in Northern Ireland”, “introducing…in Wales”, and “introducing…in Scotland”. That is under threat by the BBC. They are great programmes; they give many new artists and bands a radio platform for the first time in their career. They are responsible for the early development of artists such as Paolo Nutini and Calvin Harris. Bands such as Biffy Clyro and Frightened Rabbit sent their first demos to “introducing…”, and they are now to go.
Such is the response to those little programmes on Radio 1 that a petition on the subject has already secured the signature of some 6,000 people—more, per head of population, than the petition to try to save Radio 6. That is how much concern there is about it in Scotland. That is the type of impact that there will be on local services. I am grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who will meet campaigners who are trying to save the programmes. I have not had a response from Mr Thompson; perhaps we could have a discussion about his coming to meet the campaigners, so that he can explain to them why that iconic little programme is to be shelved. The proposal is ridiculous, because it will not save any money; there will still be an “introducing…”; it will just broadcast across the United Kingdom. The individual identities of the programmes, and the opportunity for bands from Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland, will be lost. You know, Madam Deputy Speaker, how passionately I feel about the music industry and opportunity for young artists. I really hope that the BBC thinks again.
I have only a few minutes left and a number of issues to raise. The reason I am so annoyed by, and angry about, the BBC cuts in Scotland is that we do not even get our population share’s-worth back from the BBC. We in Scotland are actually subsidising the BBC; we give more through the licence fee than we get back in services. I am appalled that Scotland has to subsidise the BBC for the rest of the UK, just as we have to subsidise the rest of the UK when it comes to resourcing, and the balance of payments to the Treasury. That is a feature that we have had to put up with. If we have to subsidise the BBC’s television and radio services, let us do what we can to protect the services that we have.
We will need a properly resourced BBC, because there will be a few big issues coming Scotland’s way in the next few years. We will ask the people of Scotland to make one of the most substantial and important choices that the nation has ever had; they will have the opportunity to say yes to becoming a normal, self-governing nation, like those throughout the rest of the world.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I want to speak about the decision-making process that has been taking place over the past couple of years, which has, to be frank, been a nightmare. I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for giving us the opportunity to hold this debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) set out the overall implications of Delivering Quality First. He chairs the National Union of Journalists parliamentary group, of which I am the secretary. We have lived with the process for the last two years. We have met the staff who have lost their jobs already, and the staff whose careers are now at risk.
What comes out of every one of these debates is a consensual view across the House about the importance of the BBC. It is always described as a jewel in the crown of British culture, and as setting world standards in public service broadcasting. Many Members have emphasised its critical role as a foundation stone of local and national democracy. However, as a result of Delivering Quality First, as Members have set out, there will be significant cuts over time, which not only undermines the BBC’s potential to maintain those standards but shows that there is an agenda about the long-term future of the BBC itself.
It is important to discuss how we got here. There is a lesson for future Governments about how decisions are made on the issue. Never again should we have to go through this process. This is not just a budgetary exercise. The assault on the BBC is driven by an agenda that has been set elsewhere. I remember the James Murdoch lecture in 2009 at the Edinburgh television festival, in which he set out an agenda which, regrettably, the Government are following almost to the letter. He set out the objective of the Murdoch empire to deregulate the media overall and undermine the BBC by cutting its supply of funds.
Alun Cairns
Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the freezing of the licence fee has made the BBC look at its activities and, at the very least, has reduced the salaries of some of the highest-paid people in broadcasting?
Alun Cairns
If that is such a priority, why was the issue not addressed when the right hon. and learned Lady’s party was in government?
Ms Harman
Perhaps it should have been, but we are talking about the situation now and in future, especially in light of what has happened in the licence fee settlement, with which I shall deal in a few moments.
As well as standing up for the BBC against commercial pressure, the Secretary of State will need to stand up for it against some on his own side. Lord Justice Leveson’s inquiry and Ofcom are now examining media plurality in the wake of the Murdoch scandal. The dominance of the Murdoch empire, which was so much the root of the wrongdoing that is now being exposed, would have been even more dangerous without the BBC.
I do not think we will see James Murdoch repeat his attacks on the BBC any time soon, but some who support the anti-BBC stance that Murdoch set out in his 2009 Edinburgh lecture will see the Leveson proceedings and the Ofcom review as an opportunity to re-launch their attacks, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said. Those voices have kept away from the debate today, but we know that the view still lurks among some in the Secretary of State’s party and on his Back Benches. If he wants a strong BBC, he will need to stand up to some on his own side strongly and publicly. When he does that, again, he will have our strong support.
The Secretary of State needs to stand up for the independence of the BBC. At the heart of its independence is the licence fee, and that is why so much concern has been expressed in the House again today about how the deal on the licence fee was done last October. My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby talked about it as “Three Days in October—When Jeremy Terrorised Mark”. Actually, there was a prequel to that film: “Three Days in October—When George Terrorised Jeremy”. The Secretary of State, appearing to have failed to fight his Department’s corner with the Treasury and to have accepted cuts that were too deep, then imposed major new financial responsibilities on the BBC in a rushed deal behind closed doors, to be paid for from licence fee funds. One was the cost of the World Service.