Child Support (Management of Payments and Arrears and Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Child Support (Management of Payments and Arrears and Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to introduce this statutory instrument, which, subject to approval, will help more families to access the vital support that is available through the Child Maintenance Service. It will also ensure that efforts and resources can be focused on taking action to collect unpaid arrears in those cases that will make the biggest difference to children. These changes build on a number of improvements that we have already made and are among the first in a further wave of legislative measures that we plan to bring forward to ensure that the service is more accessible, simpler and speedier and ultimately gets more money to more children more quickly.

Families are the cornerstone of our communities. Each family is unique, but the importance of the bonds that bind them together is universal. When these bonds fray or falter, the impact on children can be significant, including where parents separate. It is therefore right that we continue to take action to promote family cohesion and reduce conflict, so that children grow up with the love and support that they need.

It was an honour to respond to the recent debate on the Love Matters report, commissioned by the most reverend Primates the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of York. The report delivered a powerful reminder of why love and support matter and the importance of strengthening and supporting family life, including ensuring that children get the best start in life.

The Child Maintenance Service plays a key part in that endeavour. It is part of a wide-ranging set of programmes and initiatives that my department is leading on. For example, through the reducing parental conflict programme, we are supporting parents to reduce the impact of frequent conflict. Delivered through local authority family services and with local community and faith partners, we are on track to have directly supported 40,000 parents in the last two years. Since we introduced it in 2014, the family test has been guiding policymakers in looking at the potential impact of policies on the family. It is something that I have actively supported in my role and I am committed to promoting it across government. Our new childcare offer has removed one of the biggest barriers to parents working and providing for their family, with a nearly 50% increase in the amount of childcare costs that parents on universal credit can claim back.

I will just highlight a number of other linked programmes happening across government. In addition to the childcare change for parents on universal credit, the Government are also substantially increasing the amount of free childcare that working parents in England can access, with 30 hours of free childcare a week all the way through from nine months up to their child starting school. Our £2.4 billion Supporting Families programme is showing how intervening early can improve outcomes for families in the long run. The Start for Life and family hubs programmes have created a network of centres and extra support for families with children.

I return to the Child Maintenance Service, which I oversee. Alongside the range of help that I have just outlined, it plays a crucial role in securing financial support for children where parents have separated, mandating, and where necessary, enforcing arrangements so that money flows from paying parents to receiving parents. This can benefit children and help to prevent them from falling into poverty. The Child Maintenance Service is currently supporting nearly a million children through maintenance arrangements. Between 2020 and 2022—the latest figures available—160,000 children were kept out of poverty each year because of parents coming to private arrangements and with our interventions through the Child Maintenance Service.

Furthermore, the Government supported two child maintenance Private Members’ Bills, which gained Royal Assent earlier this year. This included the Child Support (Enforcement) Act 2023, which we consulted on in November to seek views on how we accelerate enforcement by replacing the slow and outdated court-based process to obtain a liability order. Once implemented, this will reduce the process from 22 weeks to as low as six weeks, making it quicker to see money flow through for children.

These regulations are intended to further improve access to the Child Maintenance Service for all families and to ensure that it runs effectively to focus on getting more money to children. First, to improve access, the regulations remove the £20 application fee that currently needs to be paid to access the Child Maintenance Service. By way of background, the original rationale for introducing the fee in 2014 was to help parents to think twice before going down the statutory route by default and encourage them to come to their own arrangements. However, as part of an evaluation of the fee and its impact, we found that it has not quite worked as intended.

Research published by my department found that the fee is not a major factor for parents when making decisions about whether to apply to the Child Maintenance Service. Indeed, the evaluation found that families on lower incomes, who we know disproportionately experience conflict and are therefore often in need of support, can find the application fee a financial barrier to accessing the service. It is important to highlight that around 54% of all applicants already pay no fee because of existing waivers, such as victims of domestic abuse and those aged under 19. Therefore, we think it sensible to remove the application fee completely for all, ensuring that those most in need can get support more easily.

Secondly, the regulations will ensure that the service can more efficiently focus resources on getting larger, more-recoverable unpaid payments flowing to children. We continue to engage with parents who refuse to pay child maintenance and fail to take responsibility for their children, through a range of enforcement powers to collect unpaid amounts. However, in these regulations, we are taking a pragmatic approach to bring forward powers to write off very minimal amounts of £7 or less, in a small number of inactive cases that would otherwise have been closed were it not for this outstanding balance.

We are doing this for two pragmatic reasons. First, the reality is that keeping these cases open requires considerable resource and taking action to recover such small amounts often costs more than the actual value of the debt. Left open, the cost of maintaining them could increase for decades with no greater chance of money being paid to receiving parents. We need to ensure that taxpayers’ money, as well as the time and effort of caseworkers, is being directed effectively, such as by focusing action against parents who owe significantly larger sums and where the impact on children missing out on that money is greater.

Secondly, given that we will close only the cases in which we have stopped calculating child maintenance payments, it is likely that they are longer needed. This could be because the child has become an adult, the parents have reconciled or the absent parent has unfortunately died. It therefore makes sense to close these cases, not least for the certainty and clarity that it would provide for families. As I said, we expect only a small number of cases to qualify and the vast majority are likely to have outstanding arrears of less than £1. The full details of the criteria permitting write-off of a debt are set out in the regulations. As I said, they include cases where maintenance calculations have ceased and no payments have been made in the previous three months. In addition, the Child Support Act 1991 provides that, in order for write-off powers to be exercised, we need to be satisfied that it would be unfair or otherwise inappropriate to enforce liability in respect of the debt.

I believe both these measures to be proportionate common-sense changes that will further improve the Child Maintenance Service. The changes are good for parents, good for the taxpayer and, more important still, good for children. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting these draft regulations and I commend them to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his overview of the whole system. He eventually got to the regulations in front of us, but he gave us a good idea of the various things that the Government are attempting to do; I thank him for that.

I come to the regulations themselves. The Minister will, I am sure, be pleased to know that I and my party agree with the removal of the £20 application fee; it has been my party’s policy in the past couple of manifestos. We would, however, make an additional change: in addition to removing the £20 charge, it is Liberal Democrat party policy to remove the 4% charge for receiving parents using the collect and pay service. I would appreciate his view on the possibility of this.

The Minister pointed out that the Government are trying to be pragmatic in dealing with the rest of the instrument. I welcome the suggestion that up to £7 of arrears could be written off but I hope that the Minister can clarify whether that would be a one-off £7 at the end—with which we would have no problem—or could apply to more than one item of £7. Is this meant to be a generous action or is it to save administration costs, or a bit of both? He did say that it was pragmatic. Who gains and loses on this £7? I read the provision through and was not quite sure—perhaps it is just me—whether the receiving parents loses £7 or that the Child Maintenance Service in some way writes it off internally. I am not calling for it to be increased but does the Minister have any information as to whether an increase in the write-off—let us say it was £10; I am just dealing with the theory of it—would have any administrative effect? Would we save money? If it is meant to save on administration, is £7 an appropriate cut-off? I think that it is, but it is worth asking.

I will move on in dealing with this £7 write-off. My reading of the statutory instrument is that time arrears will be written off in only these limited circumstances: maintenance arrangements have come to an end because the payee parent has requested it; the paying parent has died; the child has died; the child is no longer a child; the parents have been cohabiting for more than six months; a new arrangement has been put in place; or the parent has failed to pay anything for the final three months. Presumably, there would be only one £7 sum of arrears rather than a series of £7 sums that could be written off unless a new arrangement were later put in place—for instance, if the couple got back together, then broke up or the payee parent requested that a new arrangement be put in place—but subsequently ended again. However, that would be some months or years down the track and would not happen too often, I hope. It may seem fairly obvious to the Minister but I have read the SI and it really is not that specific. The ambiguity is such that I would appreciate, for the purposes of Hansard, it being set out.

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Is the department following these recommendations? What else is being done to make direct pay more effective? I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for their general support for these regulations. Certainly, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, was fully in agreement with what we are doing with the £20 application fee. I appreciate the noble Baroness’s very complimentary remarks about the regulations. We work hard to get them right and I will certainly pass her remarks on. I thank both Members for their valuable contributions during this short debate.

Providing for our children is a fundamental responsibility. Most people can independently reach agreement about arrangements under the Child Maintenance Service, but there will always be circumstances where this does not happen or is not possible, as I said. Sometimes relationships are complicated and conflicted and, of course, there are reasons due to domestic abuse. That is why the work of the Child Maintenance Service is so vital. To add to what I said in opening, it provides that safe service for parents who specifically face safety concerns, and it ensures that both parents actively play their part to support their children, whether they live with them or not.

I will answer the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, about writing off £7 arrears. This legislation will permit the Child Maintenance Service to write off small volumes of very low-value debt in cases that meet certain criteria and that would otherwise have closed if it were not for that outstanding balance. Writing off low-level debt will be permitted only in cases where it would be unfair or otherwise inappropriate to enforce liability in respect of the arrears. I will explain more in a moment but, broadly speaking, it applies where a maintenance calculation has ceased, under specific provisions of the Child Support Act 1991 and where no payments have been made towards the arrears in the last three months.

We believe that setting the threshold higher, which I think was the gist of the noble Lord’s question, would give the wrong message to paying parents about their obligations. As the flat rate for child maintenance—the minimum amount a parent is expected to pay to meet their statutory duty to maintain their children—is £7 per week, we consider setting the threshold just below that amount the best way to strike that difficult balance. I hope that helps to explain our rationale behind the policy.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked why we are removing the application fee, why it was not removed sooner and whether we are doing this for the benefit of the customers. As I set out, the application fee was introduced partly to provide an incentive for separated parents to make collaborative family-based arrangements to facilitate better outcomes for children. In removing the fee, we first needed to allow enough time to properly evaluate the impact of this measure. As part of this evaluation, evidence published by my department has shown that the fee is not a significant factor when making decisions, as mentioned earlier. Most importantly, evidence has also found that families on lower incomes disproportionately experience conflict and are less able to make a family-based arrangement. Therefore, the fee could act as a financial barrier to those families accessing the service. The removal of the fee is expected to lead to a relatively modest loss of income of around £1 million to £2 million per annum. Looking at this, we think that, on balance, this is the right thing to do.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, asked about collection charges. They are applied to all Child Maintenance Service collect and pay cases. Our research suggests that this encourages some parents to use direct pay. The charges are 20%, as he knows, on top of the liability for the paying parent, and—the gist of his question—4% of the maintenance received by the receiving parent. Charges such as the application fee were originally introduced to provide both parents with an incentive to collaborate. Running the collect and pay service incurs costs for the taxpayer, especially where collection and enforcement action is required to secure payments. Therefore, it is reasonable for most parents to contribute towards running such a service. In a survey conducted between 2017 and 2019, 44% of receiving parents said that collect and pay charges influenced their decision to use direct pay. To answer the question directly, the Government continue to keep the other Child Maintenance Service measures, including the 4%, under review. No decision is being made, but we are keeping it under review.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

Can that be changed without it coming back? It cannot, can it? The Government are missing an opportunity. The Minister said £7 per week. Is that what he meant?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

No, I did not mean £7 per week. I should have said £7 arrears. On the £4, I understand that we have to use legislation to take that forward, should we wish. However, it is not on the agenda and we are keeping that under review.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised a number of questions. I shall first address the points made about the NAO. The Government also thank the NAO for conducting such a thorough report on the value for money audit of the CMS. The Government’s response partially and fully accepted a number of the NAO’s recommendations, as the noble Baroness probably knows, including investigating why fewer people are taking up the CMS than expected, tackling any inappropriate barriers that prevent families using its services and improving the effectiveness of direct pay and collect and pay arrangements.

Another question the noble Baroness asked was about what evidence the department has relating to the drivers of the fall in usage of the statutory system. Having a maintenance arrangement is not right for all parents. We know that many who do not have one want one. The department is investigating existing research and data to understand why some parents chose not to have a child maintenance arrangement and to improve its knowledge of customers who use its service. This is work in progress and the noble Baroness raised an important question. It is also important to note that, since the conclusion of the value for money audit, we have already seen greater take-up from parents wanting to use the service, so that perhaps helps to answer the question.

The noble Baroness also asked whether there is any more information that we can share with her about what we are doing to improve the effectiveness of the arrangements. Over the past few years, the Child Maintenance Service has developed and delivered significant improvements to its online services. These services make it easier and quicker for parents to engage with the service and the majority of applications are now made online. We are also continuing to work towards implementing the recommendations on improving the effectiveness of direct pay and collect and pay arrangements. Customers on direct pay can now report missed payments via their online account. In addition, the CMS developed an email campaign in 2022 to prompt direct pay customers to get in contact if their direct pay case was not working for them. This capability will be considered for future campaigns to communicate better with parents. For collect and pay cases, the department has set out its fast enforcement plan, which includes specific test and learn campaigns and greater use of risk and intelligence to drive compliance. As part of this regulations package, we will be extending our write-off powers for arrears of less than £7 when, as I said, certain circumstances are met. This aligns with the NAO’s recommendation to review the approach to managing arrears. The Committee will also be aware of our plans to improve and accelerate our enforcement of CMS, as outlined earlier, and our plans to consult more broadly on the service types.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, was also concerned about take-up more broadly. I am sure she will appreciate that these regulations will make it easier for people to access the CMS.

There is a lot more that we could be doing. There is a major programme in my department on using AI and making it effective for not just this service but others within the department. I think the noble Baroness is aware of that from the Question I answered not so long ago. I make the point that human contact is incredibly important. In the various products that we have, we are all the time dealing with some of the most vulnerable customers in the country, as she will be aware.

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I do not know whether it is too historic, but I possibly should have drawn the Committee’s attention to the fact that I have a historic pecuniary interest as a former director of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission; I just want to place that on record.

I am grateful for and appreciate the Minister’s thorough response. He mentioned that the Government are doing more research. Will that be published? He also mentioned an email campaign in relation to direct pay. How is that going?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

On the latter point, which is a good one, I shall certainly need to write to the noble Baroness. On the former one, it is fair to say that we will write as well. Those will be added to a number of other questions that I may have to answer.

Motion agreed.

Love Matters (Archbishops’ Commission on Families and Households Report)

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Friday 8th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, it is an honour to close this debate on Love Matters, the report of the Archbishops’ Commission on Families and Households. I start by thanking all noble Lords for their valuable contributions today and, in particular, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury for initiating this important debate and for treating the House to a moving and passionate speech. If noble Lords will excuse the pun, in looking up to the gods, I thank the commission for its work in producing the report. It is a landmark report for the Church which makes valuable recommendations. I assure the House that these have been closely studied by the Government and are reflected in our plans and actions across the families agenda.

I add that it is a delightful change to see that there are more recommendations for the Church than for the Government on this occasion. However, just to reassure the House, there still remains much for us to do. As my noble friend Lady Bottomley said, faith groups and the Church are a crucial element in communities around the country and support many families. We have strong partnerships with the Church, including on the delivery of high-quality education in schools, and I will say more about that later.

Before I begin, I will just round up some of the themes. There were a lot of wide-ranging themes this afternoon: the importance and value of marriage, including same-sex marriage and in the traditional sense; a focus on children; views on single-person households and lone parents; relationships generally, and relating better, and how much this matters; a focus on the elderly from the noble Lord, Lord Davies; the joys or otherwise of being married to an MP; national service for young people cropped up; and, it is fair to say, bad days at the office for benefits officials struck me as being quite interesting. There was an emphasis on friends and “Neighbours”, and we have been exhorted to watch “Coronation Street” next Wednesday—I must make sure to put that into my diary.

I happen to be wearing a tie with an elephant on today, and the House will know that elephants have deep family bonds. They are loyal to a fault and they are known to spend time with the relics of their ancestors, so clearly, in that respect, love matters. I welcome the report’s focus on love, which provides an important reminder of the human element, the unconditional bond that underlies the entire families agenda. We all know that children benefit from growing up in a family that provides love and support and is part of a community. These are the things that ultimately make a difference to children’s happiness and success throughout childhood and up through as far as employment.

We also know, sadly, that this is not the case for all children, and that some families require greater support. As a result, providing such support to create an environment where all children can thrive is a key priority for this Government. That is why, in February, we published Stable Homes, Built on Love, which sets out our vision for a social care system built on love, safety and stability, along with the actions being taken to reform children’s social care, a focus shared by the report. This is just one part of our wider support for families, and I will highlight some of the further initiatives shortly.

The term “family” does not automatically imply everyone living together under one roof, nor only those who find themselves under the branches of the same family tree, so I welcome the report’s broad definition of family. In preparation for this debate, I was struck by one definition I happened to come across. It goes as follows.

“Family is loving and supporting one another even when it’s not easy to do so. It’s being the best person you could be so that you may inspire your loved ones”.


Indeed, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister puts it, quoted by the report,

“whatever your family looks like, it doesn’t matter as long as the common bond is love”.

I echo the report’s celebration of all forms of loving relationships. As the most reverend Primate and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham said, they are significant for every individual, whether they opt for a life as a pair within a family unit or as a single person. We must respect and recognise the different family arrangements and structures, so that we can provide the right types of support. However, I listened very carefully to my noble friends Lady Stowell, Lord Cormack and Lord Robathan. They spoke passionately, particularly my noble friend Lady Stowell, about the value and benefit of marriage and the need to keep promoting this, and they are absolutely right.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham echoed the view, which was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, that the marriage ceremony is enormously important, and the preparation for the ceremony—preparing for the commitment of marriage—was at the heart of this. The right reverend Prelate cited a role model for this at the Holy Trinity Brompton. I also declare an interest that I believe that I am a beneficiary of good preparation for marriage, having just, last June, celebrated 35 years—not quite as many as some others in the Chamber. I also noted the question raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham about the registrar possibly doing some signposting. I will reflect on that, and I will certainly get back to him, and put a letter in the House Library regarding that important point.

In terms of supporting marriage, I remind the House that the Government do indeed support the institution of marriage. The House will know that we introduced the marriage allowance in 2015 to recognise marriage and civil partnerships in the tax system as just one example of our support for marriage. The Government also have a strong track record of advancing LGBT rights, including the introduction of same-sex marriage in 2013. I was deeply moved by the speech from my noble friend Lord Herbert.

The most reverend Primate mentioned the importance of state intervention where needed. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, added in at different stages, and I think he alluded to the reference made to the elderly. I will come back to that, hopefully, with time later.

I will directly address what support the Government are providing on issues that affect families. As my noble friend Lady Bottomley highlighted, my own department, DWP, oversees the reducing parental conflict programme, which shows that supporting parents, inter alia, to reduce the damage of frequent arguing—I make the point that it is frequent arguing, not just arguing, that is very damaging—achieves positive and sustained impacts for children. This programme is delivered through local authority family services and with local community and faith partners. The most reverend Primate emphasised the importance of local action in this respect, and he is right. We continue to provide ongoing support for local authorities across England on this programme and are on track to have directly supported 40,000 parents in the last two years.

In addition, the start for life and family hubs programme has created a network of centres for families with children up to 19, or up to 25 where the child has a disability. These family hubs link professionals, local partners and faith groups to support families. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham spoke about family hubs very eloquently. They also support the very important early years development, which I know is a priority for the Royal Foundation and her Royal Highness the Princess of Wales. I am sure that the House will welcome the joined-up support being given by midwives and family hub workers to expectant and new parents, helping them with both their child’s and their own health and well-being.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham asked how the Government will ensure that faith groups are involved in family hubs, and that they provide the necessary relationships advice. He is right: faith groups are at the heart of many communities and therefore are a key component of the family hub model. We have published guidance for local authorities on the services we expect family hubs to offer, including helping families access support for separating and separated parents, and to reduce parental conflict.

In another passionate speech, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester spoke about children with a parent in prison—a very important subject. A parent going into prison can have a profound impact on children, which I would say is an understatement. Local agencies are best placed here to determine what support is needed, for example, Keeping Children Safe in Education 2023: Statutory Guidance for Schools and Colleges states that the additional needs of children with a family member in prison or who are affected by parental offending should be considered.

Healthy relationships are built on a foundation of mutual respect, trust and honest communication. In schools, our children are being taught about the importance of healthy relationships through the inclusion of age-appropriate relationships, sex and health education within the curriculum. This helps them to develop mutually respectful relationships more broadly, but that is not all the help that they get on relationships. School mental health teams are already making a difference when relationships get tough, to help children address problems early before they escalate.

The reality is that not all relationships stand the test of time. The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, put it very well when he said, “Bad things happen”, and indeed they do. In 2020, the Government introduced the Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Act. The legislation has modernised divorce laws and has created an online divorce service to help with financial settlements and childcare arrangements after separation.

In addition, the Child Maintenance Service—which I am directly responsible for—plays a crucial role in securing financial support for children where parents have separated. It mandates—and, where necessary, enforces—appropriate arrangements so that children have the best start in life with a solid financial foundation. Through both private family-based arrangements and more formal Child Maintenance Service arrangements, looking at the years 2020 to 2022, on average 160,000 children were kept out of absolute low income on an after-housing-costs basis.

Despite this progress, however, there is much more we can do. That is why, in October, my department announced measures to strengthen the Child Maintenance Service by accelerating our enforcement powers and removing the £20 application fee. We will also consult on the ways in which the Child Maintenance Service collects and transfers maintenance payments, all with the primary aim of getting more funds to children. My noble friend Lord Robathan is right to mention that it is mainly men—93%—who have strayed in a marriage. However, I emphasise that not all do not take responsibility for their children, so it is a complicated story.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham spoke about the two-child limit, which I was certainly expecting to speak about this afternoon. He will probably know what my answer will be; my noble friend Lady Stowell alluded to it. The two-child limit has been extensively debated in this House. On inception, the policy had two clear intentions: first, to make universal credit fairer and more affordable to the taxpayer; secondly, to make sure those supporting themselves through benefits face the same financial choices around the number of children they can afford to have as those not on benefits. The House will be aware of the exceptions that apply. Child benefit continues to be paid for all children in eligible families.

Going further, in 2014—as the most reverend Primate highlighted—we introduced the family test, which guides policy-makers in assessing the potential effects of their decisions on family dynamics, including elements related to marriage. The family test is for individual departments to apply. The approach allows for flexibility to consider the test at the most appropriate points in the policy-making process. In my role, I have actively supported the family test and I remain committed to promoting it across government.

I know the most reverend Primate regards this as being very important. We acknowledge that some people, including himself, might like to see the consideration and publication of the family test become a statutory obligation. To work best, an assessment of the potential family impacts of policies needs to be done early in the policy development process, so that consideration can be given to adapting proposals. Feedback from policy-makers tells us that statutory tests risk becoming a box-ticking exercise at the end of the policy process, with pass or fail outcomes. However, perhaps I can reassure him and the House that we continue to work across government to support officials developing policy to apply the family test from the earliest policy development stages and encourage the sharing of best practice. We are also starting work across government to consider the language of the family test questions and supporting guidance. We really do want to ensure that it continues to be relevant and appropriate. We acknowledge the recommendations in the report, but also in the Children’s Commissioner’s report.

I will turn to some other matters raised in the report. On reducing poverty and supporting low-income families, the Government believe they have a strong track record of helping vulnerable families. There were a number of questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and I will need to write a letter as there were an awful lot of them. I will be touching on housing later, however, which was a general theme during the debate, so I hope that some answers may come to her from that.

The House will be aware of the £276 billion spent on welfare in Great Britain over 2023-24. I will not rehearse all the Autumn Statement announcements, because the House has heard them on several occasions over the past two weeks or so. However, as I said earlier, I will focus on housing. The noble Lord, Lord Mann, raised this, and the most reverend Primate also spoke about the importance of family, where they live and how they live, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford spoke about the types of houses, the intergenerational focus on the buildings and, frankly, making it a lot better for families to live near each other so that we have the influence of the intergenerational aspects. Those are incredibly important points, which I certainly take on board.

In the meantime, as the House will know, in the Autumn Statement the Government are raising the local housing allowance rates to the 30th percentile of local market rents in April 2024, which will benefit 1.6 million low-income households by on average £800 a year in 2024-25, and of course help many who are in poverty. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford asked about timing. I will certainly take her point back about perhaps bringing the date forward but I certainly cannot offer any reassurance on that.

The report rightly identifies many of the features that support families’ flourishing, including friendship, shelter and the ability to deal with conflict. However, I highlight the importance of work. I have to say that I am slightly amazed that this has not been raised at all during this debate, so I will take this opportunity to focus on it. It has been a long-standing principle for the Government that the most effective and sustainable way to tackle poverty is by championing employment, acknowledging the mental health benefit that this brings and supporting people, including parents, to progress in work. Work can be an important part of bringing families together, supporting their mental health, and role-modelling positive behaviours for younger generations. The Government are committed to improving lives by ensuring that more people can reap the rewards of work. The voluntary in-work progression offer is now available in all jobcentres across Great Britain. We estimate that around 1.2 million low-paid workers will be eligible for support to progress into higher-paid work, and we will encourage them to take up this offer.

On childcare and the actions of my department to support parents into work, from June 2023 we increased the universal credit childcare cost caps by 47% to £951 a month for one child and £1,630 a month for families with two or more children. Importantly, we can now also provide even more help with up-front childcare costs when parents move into work or increase their hours. I reiterate my appreciation to faith groups and their commitment to parents, carers and children, and I am grateful to the commission for its invaluable contributions to supporting and strengthening family life since it was established in March 2021.

I want to raise one very important point, which is the role of grandparents—the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referenced the elderly in his remarks, but I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Mann, profusely for raising this important subject. The intergenerational aspects of grandparents—the way they play a pivotal role in families, often stepping up to provide kinship care and support to children and their parents—are important. Many kinship carers, especially grandparents, take on this role at a time in their lives when they least expect to raise a family, we would guess. They provide support, sage advice and stability, forging strong relationships not out of duty but because love matters.

I will answer a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, to do with having a Cabinet-level Minister for Children. Perhaps I can be helpful by saying that of course he will know that we have a Children’s Minister, but that was not his point. The Secretary of State for Education fulfils the role of Cabinet-level Minister. She makes sure that the best interests of children and families are front and centre in policy and decision-making at this highest level of government. She has a statutory duty to promote the well-being of children in England under the Children and Young Persons Act 2008, and is responsible for overseeing domestic implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and leading the reporting process on behalf of the UK to the UN.

The Minister for Children, Families and Wellbeing also chairs a cross-government child protection ministerial group. This group helps to ensure that safeguarding is championed at the highest level by government departments that provide services to children and families. Through this group, the Secretary of State also ensures that other government departments are held to account in delivering for children.

This Government are committed to delivering on issues that matter to the British people. That is why we will continue with our mission to help all families to thrive, and our young people growing up within them to flourish.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

Before the Minister sits down, can I ask him whether he used a word in his section on divorce advisedly? He referred to a proportion or percentage of men who had “strayed”. To me, that suggests an element of blame, whereas I thought that the whole thrust of developments in divorce law is for the law to avoid allocating blame.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. I clarify that I was not attaching any blame; I was just making a factual point that it is the 93% of men who stray. There is a balance that we strike within the Child Maintenance Service to be sure that we take account of the issues relating to paying parents and receiving parents. It is very important that we do not take sides, but we also have to look at the facts.

Universal Credit

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 7th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to the proposal from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Trussell Trust for an ‘Essentials Guarantee’ in Universal Credit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, the department has taken note of the report and recommendations. We are aware of the continuing pressures people on lower incomes face. We will spend £276 billion through the welfare system in 2023-24 in Great Britain. From April 2024, benefits will increase by 6.7% and the national living wage will increase by 9.8% to £11.44. We are investing £1.2 billion in restoring local housing allowance rates, which ensure that 1.6 million low-income private renters gain, on average, £800 per year.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the Minister that, of the 6.2 million people on universal credit, 38% are in full-time work. Has he read the latest report from Barnardo’s on bed poverty, published only in September? The research showed that, due to the lack of an essentials guarantee, 900,000 children share a bed or sleep on the floor. Can he imagine the anxiety and tiredness that this creates? There is a lack of an essentials guarantee, which could be monitored by an independent body. It is not just a question of upping the benefits; there ought to be some serious effort put into this.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Yes, absolutely. The noble Lord’s points chime with what I said earlier about the fact that we understand the pressures that some people are experiencing. The Government have demonstrated their commitment to supporting the most vulnerable by providing one of the largest support packages in Europe. Taken together, the Government are providing total support of £104 billion from 2022 to 2025 to help households. I am aware of the Barnardo’s report. What we are doing for the household support fund includes funding to enable local authorities to help people with the cost of essentials in houses, including food, energy and furniture.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, has my noble friend had the opportunity to read the report of the Economic Affairs Committee on universal credit, which pointed out the injustice of people who moved on to universal credit and who received overpayments under the previous system, through no fault of their own, having their universal credit reduced? Surely at a time of such pressures, the Treasury should write off the sum and acknowledge it was a mistake made by government, for which people who are under very stressed circumstances should not be paying?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I take note of the point raised by my noble friend. I am not able to comment directly on that, but I will take his points back to the Treasury.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister give due consideration, along with his ministerial colleagues in government, for the need to reform the social security system to ensure that poverty, particularly food poverty and child poverty, is put at the centre of any new policy, to ensure that there is an elimination over the next number of years?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Indeed, the noble Baroness is right that poverty is incredibly important. Absolute poverty is the Government’s preferred measure, as the poverty line is fixed in real terms. There is some debate over how one defines poverty; we are very alert to that, particularly in the field of child poverty. We take it very seriously, and although there is not time to go through all the measures we are taking, it is very important that as many children as possible—all children—are taken out of poverty.

[The Lord Bishop of Worcester]

My Lords, thinking of the effects of poverty, the Mental Health Foundation has recommended that all front-line workers, including those who work in essential services and government, should be given training and support to know how to respond effectively to the mental health effects of financial stress and strain. Will the Minister agree that this training and support is both vital and necessary?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right. Across government, we are putting a lot of work into tackling mental health, particularly post pandemic. We have a sustainable long-term approach to tackling poverty and, as I said earlier, supporting people on lower incomes. Perhaps I can say to the right reverend Prelate that, in 2021-22, there were 1.7 million fewer people in absolute poverty after housing costs than in 2009-10, including 400,000 fewer children.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, one group ignored by the Government in the Autumn Statement is unpaid carers. The Chancellor’s speech in the other place failed to mention the estimated 10.6 million people providing care, while the statement document itself mentions them only in relation to technical changes. In recent research by Carers UK, 60% of all carers said that they were worried about the impact of caring on their finances, while over a third of carers receiving carer’s allowance say they are struggling to afford the cost of food. Will the Minister look at reforming the rate of carer’s allowance and taking further steps to prevent eligibility restrictions acting as a barrier to employment?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Indeed, the noble Lord raised an important point about carers, who play a vital role in our country. We are very alert to this; I will certainly take the point he raised back to the Treasury, but I am unable to comment on whether we can or cannot do it. In terms of carers, we have strong evidence that some carers would also like to take on some work if it is appropriate, so there is much work going on with job coaches, to encourage them to speak to carers to see whether it is possible for them to combine work as well as their caring responsibilities, if it is appropriate.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister says that the Government are concerned about poverty, and he describes the things the Government have done, but we have to look at the results, because I am afraid that the Government do not get to mark their own homework. If the Minister does not like the Barnardo’s study cited by my noble friend, does he like the Joseph Rowntree Foundation finding that last year a million children experienced destitution? What about UNICEF, which found recently that the world’s worst rise in child poverty between 2012 and 2019 was in the UK—the worst of the 39 richest countries in the world? Is the Minister proud of that?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am certainly not proud of that, but, as I say, there are a number of reports that have come out, and some that have come out recently. I can only repeat again that we are aware of the pressures involved; some families find it difficult even with where they can find the next meal. We are very aware of and alert to that; I think the noble Baroness will know that we are particularly busy in looking at what more can be done to help those in absolute poverty. She will know from the Autumn Statement the measures we have taken forward, and I can only repeat again that we are very alert to this.

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

My Lords, food inflation remains stubbornly high, at slightly over 10%, although thankfully it is 9 percentage points down from its peak in March this year. On this vital household metric, there is significant risk that prices will stay unaffordably high. What measures will the Government take to encourage the price of essential food items to come down from current levels in retail, local shops and supermarkets?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My noble friend raises another pressure, which we are also aware of. First, tackling inflation is the Government’s number one priority, and that is coming down. The Government monitor consumer food prices using the consumer prices index, as my noble friend will know, and in October 2023 CPI food price inflation reported by the ONS was 10.1%, down from 12.1% in September 2023. I reassure him that, through regular engagement, Defra will continue to work with food retailers and producers to explore the range of measures they can take to ensure the availability of affordable food.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

As the Minister has just said, and the House agrees, the price of food is very high. Could the Minister explain to the House—or maybe help me—why we have a very good system called Healthy Start, which provides a supplementary bit of money to pregnant mums and kids under four, yet 40% of the people who are eligible for this are not registered, because the system is really complicated? NGOs such as the one I chair, Feeding Britain, have been campaigning for a long time for automatic registration. The money is there; it is not drastically expensive. Could the Minister agree to look into this very simple process that would help a lot of people?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Again, I will certainly take that point back. The Healthy Start scheme is an important point of the Government’s programme. Through healthy food schemes, the Government provide a nutritional safety net to those families who need it most. In terms of the uptake, the latest Healthy Start uptake figures were published, as the noble Baroness may be aware, on 31 October. The uptake for the NHS Healthy Start scheme was 70%.

Department for Work and Pensions: AI

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how the Department for Work and Pensions is using artificial intelligence and what governance process is in place for such use.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, DWP has used forms of AI for some time and we continue to investigate new opportunities. This includes looking at how generative AI can help us deliver high-quality services to improve customer experience and colleague efficiency. We are aware of the transformative benefits of AI, as well as the potential risks. We have created the AI Lighthouse programme to explore opportunities, and we have a framework ensuring that we work safely, ethically and transparently.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, this Question has become topical since I tabled it, since the Government have started to take powers to look into the bank account of every pensioner in the country. But that has made me even keener to understand exactly how DWP is using AI. Can the Minister tell the House whether it is used to select people for health reassessments, or to decide who to investigate or who to sanction? If so, what safeguards are in place to ensure that it is used transparently and fairly? How do we avoid it becoming a sort of digital version of stop and search?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness that we already have a proven track record in delivering technology in a responsible and well-governed way. We have extended our governance to include an AI steering board and an assurance and advisory group. DWP always ensures that appropriate safeguards are in place for the proportionate, ethical and legal use of data, with internal monitoring protocols adhered to. I further reassure her that the Cabinet Office’s Central Digital and Data Office has recognised our Lighthouse programme’s safe acceleration framework as an exemplar for AI development in government.

[Baroness Buscombe (Con)]

My Lords, given that the DWP’s proposed total expenditure for 2023-24 is a staggering £279.3 billion, can my noble friend tell the House whether this use of AI will contribute and is contributing to cost efficiencies within the department?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I can reassure my noble friend that it will. I shall give a bit of granular detail: a 2021 DSIT report highlighted the potential impact of AI on the UK labour market, and this of course includes DWP. Automation is forecast to increase, rising from an estimated 7% to 30%, but I can reassure my noble friend that, with the changes, there will be a net gain. We have an average of about 900,000 employees per quarter moving from one job to another, so I can reassure my noble friend that my department’s employees will reduce, but there will be opportunities for those in AI.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister said, the Government are rolling out massively complex new systems, with significant risk to claimants because they have not got their original systems in order. We hear constant reports of backlogs at the Future Pension Centre, payments for national insurance credits being lost within the system and more and more historic pension errors coming to light when it comes to things such as home responsibilities protection. Can the Minister update the House on the steps to get those existing systems in order and on what learning exercises will be carried out to ensure that no such errors will be carried forward on the new and potentially more powerful systems that he has outlined?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We are certainly working very hard to look at and mitigate delays, and AI will over time be a game-changer for that. To manage and mitigate risk, we have produced a risk framework, in line with the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. We are setting out AI governance and an approach to AI enablement which will be transformational.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall pick up on what my noble friend said about digital stop and search, because there is growing concern about the potential for hidden bias in the use of algorithms to detect social security fraud. What steps has the DWP taken to prevent such bias, with potentially discriminatory outcomes?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an important point. We are committed to building trust in our use of AI and are fully aware of the risks of the technology, as discussed at the UK AI safety summit. Where AI is used to assist its activities in the prevention and detection of fraud within UC applications, DWP always ensures appropriate safeguards, and bias is something we are very alive to. It will very much depend on the input of data and we have some risk profiles in place to ensure that we adopt best practice in that respect.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, given the appalling amount of fraud within the DWP, costing billions per year, surely we should welcome the fact that DWP is using AI and algorithms to target this problem. The key is presumably that, once AI has reached a conclusion, actual human beings should review the situation. Can the Minister tell the House whether the DWP has robust internal quality assessment procedures?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

There are couple of questions there. We continue to explore the potential of AI in combating fraud. This includes the integrated risk and intelligence service, using AI to assist in identifying possible fraud in processing universal credit advances. To answer my noble friend’s question, importantly, DWP does not use AI to replace human judgment when considering the potential for incorrectness to either determine or deny payment to a claimant. The NAO and the ICO looked at this issue recently and found no areas of immediate concern.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the issue that my noble friend raised about access to millions of people’s bank accounts came up at a very late stage—Report—of Commons dealings with the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. Can the Minister outline why such contentious measures were introduced only after the line-by-line consideration of the Bill in the elected House? Why did the Government refuse the Opposition’s request that the legislation go back to Committee, as did the Online Safety Bill in the last Session? Can the Minister justify why this very contentious piece of legislation is being rushed through?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I will not be drawn into answering questions on that, but I can say that it is important that the scrutiny of the Bill is done in an effective way and, of course, this House is very good at doing that. As I have mentioned before, it is very important that there is trust in AI solutions; this must be a prevalent issue among all users of AI.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Will this AI enable people who are on social security to get a better deal and get off social security, so that we can tap into the skills and abilities of millions of people who are caught in the Bastille of poverty and social security?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Yes, and I can outline that a lot of very good work has been done so far. As I said earlier, the work still has to include human judgment, but AI is being used to assist with improving on repetitive processes for staff. We are introducing conversational platforms for triaging, which will lead directly to having a human face. The whole point is to speed up the process and include more human judgment in ensuring that more people get into work, and faster.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

Has the Minister seen the Paradot website? If not, will he look at it? Is the department examining whether the buddy concept developed there could be used in the department that he represents and in other government departments, and what the consequences of using that in government service would be?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am not aware of that, but I will most certainly look at it.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Can the Minister say what percentage of staff within the department are fully skilled and trained on the use, application and assessment of AI decisions?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I will need to write to the noble Lord with those specific figures.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

The Minister has said repeatedly that he wants the public to have trust in the use of AI in the system. Can he therefore tell us what proportion of cases where AI has been used are subsequently checked by a human? Will he publish the results of that analysis to show whether the AI decisions are the same as human decisions, or perhaps better, or worse?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I can give the noble Lord some reassurance on the processes that we have in place. AI is an evolving, iterative process and it is important to highlight the fact that we have a test- and-learn approach. We must proceed with extreme caution in what we are doing. Test-and-learn means that we need to get to a point where we are assured that this will work and that nobody will be affected detrimentally. Then we can accelerate our programmes.

Benefit Claimants: Free Prescriptions

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 30th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by expressing my own condolences at the loss of the noble Lord, Lord Darling. I was shocked and greatly saddened when I heard the news earlier today. He was a giant of a man, and he was extremely helpful, indeed instrumental, in helping the country through the financial crisis back in 2008 and onwards.

It is a pleasure to close this important debate which, at its heart, is about ensuring that more people who can work are supported to do so and benefit from all the rewards of work. I start by thanking all noble Lords for their valuable contributions, in particular the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London for initiating this debate. I also thank her for our meeting earlier this week, which was greatly appreciated. Getting into work and ensuring that work pays remains a key government priority. Building on the £7 billion employment package announced in the Spring Budget, the Autumn Statement set out a further £2.5 billion investment in employment support over the next five years. This support will ensure that no claimant reaches 18 months of unemployment if they have taken every reasonable step to comply with the jobcentre support offered to them.

I will cover two or three points upfront. I was interested in the very hard-hitting speeches from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. They both opined about the issues of sanctions more broadly. It is fair to say that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London alluded to some misrepresentation in the press. I can think only that the noble Lord and noble Baroness have maybe been reading too much in the papers, but their questions were fair.

I say at the outset that conditionality supported by sanctions has been a long-standing feature of benefit entitlement and a policy of past Governments, including past Labour Governments. Claimants on work-related benefits are generally expected to take responsibility for meeting the conditionality requirements that they have agreed to with their work coach. Where a claimant fails to attend a mandatory appointment or fails to comply with specific work-related activities without good reason, an open-ended sanction is applied. Open-ended sanctions are applied from the date of the failure up until the date that the claimant complies with the agreed requirement—I will say more about this later. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for her general acknowledgment of this policy.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London understandably asked about continued disengagement and whether the policies we are taking forward are a bit harsh—I think that is the general principle of what she said. Perhaps I can be helpful by saying that claimants are set mandatory work-related requirements based on the benefit regime that they are in. All mandatory requirements are tailored to the claimant’s circumstances and are discussed with them beforehand, as are the consequences of failing to comply. We have also hugely increased the training that job coaches have. I reassure the House that the quality of job coaches is increasing the whole time, and there is a great deal of sensitivity involved, as the House will imagine.

Following a failure to comply, the claimant has the opportunity to provide good reason. Additionally, a pre-referral quality check is in place to check for known vulnerabilities before a sanction referral is made. Following a referral, cases are reviewed to ensure that the mandatory requirement was fairly set in the first place and to check whether a conditionality easement should have been applied. Claimants will be contacted through the normal channels from the point of sanction decision. These include a digital nudge at six weeks following the decision. Where a claimant remains disengaged following an open-ended sanction, they will receive a notification at month five that will inform them of the claimant closure intention and prompt them to re-engage or to inform us of any new circumstances that may impact this.

The right reverend Prelate asked, reasonably, about the cost of living. We remain very aware of the pressures that people are facing with the cost of living. That is why we have provided £94 billion of support across last year and this year, 2023-24, to help households and individuals with the rising cost of bills. In addition, subject to parliamentary approval, working-age benefits will rise by 6.7% from April 2024, in line with inflation. The House is well aware of the Autumn Statement announcement on the local housing allowance rates, which I know will make a considerable difference.

The right reverend Prelate asked about statutory sick pay. There is a very short answer: we will absolutely continue to keep it under review. She also asked about primary legislation and timing. Although I cannot give her any precise information on the timing, I can say that it is very unlikely that we will be able to bring this forward during this Parliament. That helps perhaps to answer a question from the noble Lord, Lord Allan of Hallam.

Turning to the issue of disengagement, I should explain that for the quarter ending August 2023, 95.3% of sanctions were for universal credit claimants failing to attend a mandatory appointment with their work coach, as opposed to refusing a job interview. These sanctions are typically open-ended, as mentioned earlier, meaning that they can easily be ended at any time by the claimant re-engaging with their work coach. We know that the majority of people who have open-ended sanctions do re-engage with the support on offer within six months. However, there is still a growing number who are choosing not to engage with employment support, despite support being available to them.

It is important to place this area in the context of the Government’s wider Back to Work plan. A key part of this is about ensuring that a short spell out of work does not turn into a period of longer-term unemployment. I am sure that we all agree with that, because the longer someone remains unemployed, the harder it is for them to return to the labour market. This can have detrimental impacts on the individual, as well as the wider economy. That is why, as part of our plan, we are bringing in much more intensive back to work support earlier on in someone’s claim. This includes upskilling, job search support, practical work experience and tailored advice to support claimants. Those claimants who remain unemployed after 18 months of intensive support will undergo a review by a work coach and will be expected to either take up a job or mandatory work placement, or engage in a programme of intensive activity.

To ensure fairness to the taxpayer, it is right that there are consequences for those who refuse to engage with the support on offer. It comes back to my initial comments at the beginning of my remarks. As a result of this new approach, no claimant should reach 18 months of unemployment in receipt of their full benefits if they have not taken every reasonable step to comply with jobcentre support. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, asked about the additional jobcentre support—the AJS. She asked whether this was even proven to work. Perhaps I can reassure her that there is good evidence to show that work is generally good for physical and mental health and well-being, whereas worklessness is associated with poorer physical and mental health and well-being. Work can be therapeutic and can reverse the adverse health effects of unemployment. This is why the AJS aims to support those closest to the labour market to return to work as quickly as possible and prevent long-term unemployment. So we do think this is a very worthwhile project. It will send a clear message to claimants who can work about engaging properly with support.

Having covered that area, I will now focus on the important points that were raised about claim closure. I would like to, I hope, give some reassurance, and dispel a few myths which were put about. I listened carefully to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, whom I have much respect for. However, I am afraid that I just did not agree with much of what he said in this respect. It is important to underline that not everyone who fails to meet with their work coach is subject to a sanction. If you have good reason, you will not be sanctioned, nor will your claim be closed. The examples of “acceptable good reasons” include new or worsening illnesses, health condition flare-ups and periods of mental ill-health—which answers a question raised by another noble Lord. They also include working or attending an interview, unexpected childcare, attending the funeral of a close family member or friend, or transport failures.

Even if there is no evidence of good reason, work coaches can also apply discretionary easements, as mentioned earlier, such as domestic emergencies. When an easement is in place, we relax our requirements so that individuals will not be sanctioned, nor will the claim be closed. Still, if you do not have a good reason for a failure but you take corrective action and re-engage with the support on offer within six months, your sanction will end and your claim will not be closed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked who these people were, and I hope I can help to answer that. There is a rapidly growing group of disengaged claimants, as the right reverend Prelate acknowledged, on nil award, who have had a failure without good reason and have failed to re-engage for more than six months. They have no housing or child elements attached to their claim. Crucially, this means that claimants who do have housing costs or children can rest assured that they will not be at risk of losing the income that they have come to depend on.

In addition, the people in the impacted group have not declared that they are homeless or, because they have no housing element, they are likely living with family, possibly including their parents, or their friends. We also exclude any claimant with a health condition that impedes their ability to look for or carry out work—which might play into the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. It is therefore only right that we close the loophole that allows people to continue to maintain a claim without complying with any commitments.

In the remaining time, I will focus particularly on free prescriptions. This was another theme raised by the right reverend Prelate. Not everyone who is subject to a claim closure will lose access to free prescriptions. There is a variety of exemption criteria beyond receiving universal credit that would qualify an individual for free prescriptions. Claimants are entitled to help with health costs, including free prescriptions, only if they are in receipt of a monetary award of universal credit that is above zero and if their earnings in their last assessment period were below the income thresholds. Many will have stopped receiving access to free prescriptions when their claims were fully reduced by the sanction.

As always, if entitlement to other benefits is reliant solely on a universal credit claim to establish eligibility, that eligibility will cease if the claim is closed. By excluding the claimants who have more severe health conditions and vulnerabilities from sanctions, we believe that the claim closure group would likely be claiming prescriptions for only minor health conditions. I think the right reverend Prelate acknowledged this in her remarks.

There were a number of questions, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, pressing me on the lack of support for the most vulnerable. I hope I can be a bit more helpful. A well-established system of hardship payments is available as a safeguard if a claimant demonstrates that they cannot meet their immediate and most essential needs, including accommodation, heating, food and hygiene, as a result of their sanction. In universal credit, claimants are able to apply for a hardship payment from the first assessment period the sanction reduction is applied.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about work being the best route out of poverty. He knows what my reply will be, which is that the Government are committed to a sustainable long-term approach to tackling poverty and supporting people on lower incomes. He is well aware of the expenditure that the Government are making in this area and we believe that the best route out of poverty is through work. The Government remain committed to a sustainable, long-term approach in this respect.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, asked about abolishing the prescription charge. I say very briefly that the Government have no plans to abolish the prescription charge in England or to review the medical exemption qualifying list. Our policy remains to help those whose need is greatest through the rules we currently have in place.

I really ought to finish. There are a number of questions that I will most certainly answer—

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am sure that the Minister will write, but I will ask one simple question before we are timed out: how many people could be affected by this policy?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I have asked about that figure. I will need to check whether I can give it to the noble Baroness, as it is not in the public domain. It is substantial. I will write to her to give her whatever answer I can. It is a very fair question, which was also raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London. However, that is as far as I am able to go.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Could the noble Viscount put that in the Library and share it with everyone in this debate?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I will most certainly do that.

I will conclude briefly, because time has run out. I have not had a chance to focus on safeguards, which the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised. I will write to her on that as there is quite a lot to say. I close by saying that our Back to Work plan is about putting fairness at the heart of our welfare system: fairness for claimants who play by the rules and try their best, and fairness for taxpayers who contribute to the welfare system. Above all, it is about helping those who can work to move into jobs, which will grow our economy, change lives and, indeed, change their own lives.

Carer’s Assistance (Carer Support Payment) (Scotland) Regulations 2023 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Wednesday 15th November 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 16 October be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 14 November.

Motion agreed.

Occupational Pension Schemes (Amendment) (Equal Treatment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Wednesday 15th November 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 18 September be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 14 November.

Motions agreed.

Pensions Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) (Equal Treatment by Occupational Pension Schemes) Regulations 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Pensions Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) (Equal Treatment by Occupational Pension Schemes) Regulations 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak also to the Occupational Pension Schemes (Amendment) (Equal Treatment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023, the Pensions Act 2004 (Amendment) (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) Regulations 2023 and the Pensions (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023. These regulations were laid before this House on 18 September 2023. In my view, the provisions in these sets of regulations are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

When the UK left the European Union, much EU law was initially preserved to ensure legislative continuity. Now, however, some pieces of law need to be restated. This is because following the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act after 31 December 2023 certain retained EU law addressed in court cases will stop applying. Therefore, to remove any legal ambiguity for occupational pension schemes, DWP is restating the law addressed in three court cases—Allonby, Walker and Hampshire—the former only in relation to the extent that it applies to guaranteed minimum pensions.

We will be debating four sets of regulations: a set of two instructions for Great Britain and Northern Ireland covering the Allonby and Walker judgments and a similar set of two instructions for the Hampshire judgment. At the request of the Northern Ireland Executive, the Government have agreed to legislate on behalf of the Department for Communities in Northern Ireland. I will start therefore with the Pensions Act and the Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) (Equal Treatment by Occupational Pension Schemes) Regulations 2023 and its Northern Ireland equivalent that relate to the Allonby and Walker judgments.

Allonby is about the right to equal pay between men and women where discrimination has arisen in an occupational pension scheme because of legislation on guaranteed minimum pensions—GMPs. Regulation 2 restates the law dealt with in the European Court of Justice’s Allonby judgment, but only to the extent it applies to guaranteed minimum pensions legislation from 17 May 1990 onwards. I will provide a little background, as there are a few things that need to be brought together. First, GMPs, which were a part of the occupational pensions system from 1978 to 1997, are unequal for men and women, reflecting general differences in treatment between men and women in legislation at the time. There are disparities, including the age at which guaranteed minimum pensions can be paid: age 65 for men and age 60 for women. These differences in treatment can result in men and women in identical employment receiving different amounts of pension benefits from their occupational pension scheme.

Secondly, the European Court of Justice’s Barber judgment of 17 May 1990 found that pension benefits must be paid to men and women on an equal basis for pensions earned from the judgment date onwards. This means that pension schemes are required to equalise pensions to correct the unequal impact caused by members having a GMP.

Thirdly, in 2004, the European Court of Justice’s Allonby judgment found that where legislation is the source of discrimination, it is not necessary for a claimant to be able to point to a real-life opposite sex comparator.

This brings us to the Equality Act 2010, which requires schemes to have an equal treatment rule; anything in a pension scheme’s rules that treats one sex less favourably than the other should be read as if it does not do so. However, this applies only when there is a real-life comparator. If a woman wanted to show that she was being treated unequally, for example, she would have to point to a real-life man who was being treated differently. In some pension schemes this was difficult to prove. Noble Lords will remember occupations such as dinner ladies or miners.

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for a very helpful introduction to these orders and particularly for explaining the background to the court cases, which will make reading Hansard for this debate a bit more comprehensible than might otherwise have been the case. I also thank my noble friend Lady Drake, to whose comments I shall return, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, whose confidence in my determination to expose the detail and minutiae I trust will not be disappointed.

All these regulations are a product of Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving. I shall start with the draft Pensions Act 2004 (Amendment) (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) Regulations 2023—the other way around from the Minister. As we have heard, it was prompted by two court decisions: the Hampshire court judgment, whereby the ECJ found that former employees should get at least half the value of their accrued pension benefits if their employer was insolvent before they hit pension age, and Hughes, when the High Court disapplied the cap on PPF compensation for those below normal pension age on the date of the employer’s insolvency.

These regulations amend the Pensions Act 2004 to ensure that affected scheme members receive at least the minimum level of protection due under the Hampshire judgment and remove reference to the PPF cap. Also, interestingly, they clarify how the Hampshire judgment is being implemented by providing a calculation of PPF compensation by reference to a one-off valuation, as approved by the Court of Appeal in Hughes.

As has been noted, action is needed because, under Section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the principles of EU law will sunset at the end of this year and cease to have effect, including where the position has changed as a result of court cases, which is very relevant to us today. The purpose of these regulations is to ensure that the effects of the Hampshire and Hughes judgments will be preserved in domestic legislation. Could the Minister confirm for the record that nothing will change from the current position once these regulations take effect and the relevant EU retained law has sunsetted?

Secondly, paragraph 10.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum reports that the DWP met with a cross-section of representatives of the pensions industry to seek views on its proposed response to the Hampshire judgment. There was broad support for retaining the effects of the judgment—but anybody who has worked in government will know that “broad support” can cover quite a range of views being expressed in the room. Out of interest, was there any opposition to retaining the effects of the Hampshire judgment and, if so, on what grounds? I am just interested in who was in the room.

I have read the draft Pensions (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023, which look on the face of it to be identical to the regulations I have just discussed, but amending the Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 2005 instead of the Pensions Act 2004. Can the Minister confirm for the record that the effect of those regulations will be the same as the other ones, but just in Northern Ireland rather than in Great Britain? When regulations are this technical, it is important for the Committee to hear from the Minister what the intention is rather than just taking my word for it—love of detail notwithstanding.

I turn to the draft Pensions Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) (Equal Treatment by Occupational Pension Schemes) Regulations 2023—these are not catchy titles. These regulations were also prompted by court cases. In the Allonby case—I take the Minister’s point that this is being retained only inasmuch as it relates to GMPs, not its broader findings—the ECJ found that an opposite-sex comparator was not needed to demonstrate discrimination, where that was caused by legislation. In the Walker case, the UK Supreme Court found on the basis of EU equality law that legislation could not allow occupational pension schemes to restrict survivor benefits for survivors of same-sex civil partnerships or marriages so that only contributions from 5 December 2005 matter, when these became possible.

Something the Minister said confused me a little. I think he said that the Government were restating the law to avoid and remove any ambiguity. From reading these judgments, I understood that their contents have so far been resting on retained EU law and that, when that sunsets, there will be nothing supporting them. I may have misunderstood, so perhaps the Minister could clarify that. I understood—or perhaps misunderstood —that these regulations were necessary because without them the contents of those court judgments would not be retained.

Presumably, the Government could have amended domestic law to bring it in line with all these judgments. We have had an awful lot of pensions Bills in the last year; presumably any one of them would have been a means for doing this. Can the Minister explain why that did not happen? Since retained EU law rights will sunset at the end of the year, we need changes to be made. These regulations amend the Equality Act to remove the need for an opposite-sex comparator and they amend the Pensions Act 2004 to introduce the same test for unequal treatment when members are entitled to payments from the PPF. They also amend Schedule 9 to the Equality Act 2010 to reflect the framework directive rights with which the legislation was deemed incompatible.

Will the Minister confirm for the record that the effect of these changes is to maintain the position we are in now, resting on retained EU law? Is the position of the survivors of all marriages and civil partnerships now the same, whatever the sex of either the surviving or the deceased member? Is everybody, in any civil partnership or marriage, in the same position, irrespective of the sex of those involved?

These regulations retain one form of protection, as my noble friend Lady Drake articulated, but still we are left with a significant gender pensions gap, an issue to which the House returns periodically. There are various contributory factors, including the carer penalty and the impact of the gender pay gap that means women are more likely to have lower pension contributions. What plans do the Government have for reforms to reduce the gender pensions gap more widely?

One of the contributory factors is the fact that women are less likely to be eligible for auto-enrolment, so will the Minister tell the Committee when the Government intend to implement the provisions of the Private Member’s Bill sponsored by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, which enabled the extension of auto-enrolment from age 18 and set contributions from the first £1 of earnings?

As far as I can tell, the draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Amendment) (Equal Treatment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023 seem to mirror the provisions of the previous regulations but amend the Equal Pay Act (Northern Ireland) 1970 and the Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, instead of the Equality Act and the Pensions Act. Once again, can the Minister confirm that the effect will be the same, albeit just in Northern Ireland?

Finally, I am really interested to hear the Minister’s response to the question from my noble friend Lady Drake: given how close we are now to the end of this year, are there any other areas where DWP has been relying on retained EU law that will be sunsetted in a few weeks? A clear assurance to the Committee for the record would be very helpful on that point. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords who have spoken for their general support for these regulations. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, was right when she alluded to there being an element of complexity but, if I may say so, all four of us have seen through that complexity. I appreciate the general support. Nevertheless, I am very aware that a number of questions were raised and, as ever, I will do my best to answer them, in no particular order.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, asked about the WASPI. I understand exactly why he raised that. He will probably expect the only answer that I can give: we are not able to comment on the status of the WASPI at the moment because, as he will be aware, there is an ombudsman investigation ongoing. He has probably heard me say that in the Chamber before; I wish I could say something different, but I am afraid I cannot go any further.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

Does the Minister have any idea of when we might hear or when the judgment will allow us to say something?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I wish I could as well, but it would depend on when the ombudsman is ready to do so, and I am not aware of when that might happen. Of course, we can always ask, but it is fair to say that if we asked, I think we might know what the reply might be. However, that is a fair question.

I said that this was in no particular order. In answer to a question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, on why there is a reference to resolving ambiguity when these rights arose under EU law—that was towards the end of her speech—in the Pensions Protection Fund regulations, references to the compensation cap in the Pensions Act 2004 are removed by these regulations to reflect the decision in Hughes. I hope that makes sense.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether I can confirm that the effect is to maintain the current position. Yes, the regulations reflect decisions of judgments relating to the current position.

I think the question that was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, as well as the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, referred to the effect of the Northern Ireland regulations and whether they are the same as the GB regulations. The answer is yes, the effect of the Northern Ireland regulations is just the same as the GB regulations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, asked a very specific question about whether all protections are preserved, and if they are not, which ones would fall away after 31 December 2023. I think that falls into a number of questions she asked about timing, so I hope I can reassure her by saying that, on the timings leading up to 31 December 2023, I am not aware of any issues or concerns over the timing. I hope that gives some reassurance. However, to put a little more into the answer, the noble Baroness may be aware that the Government have decided to allow the Bauer judgment to sunset under the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act. This means that former employees whose employer becomes insolvent on or after the sunset date will not have an entitlement under that judgment. However, I reassure her that I am not aware of any other preserved under Section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, which I believe she raised.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether the Northern Ireland regulations provide the same effect. The answer is yes—I think I have covered that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether anything will change from 1 January 2024 as regards protection provided by the decisions in Hampshire and Hughes, and yes, that is correct. For insolvencies after that date, the same rules will apply because of these regulations.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, raised a question about the LEAP exercise, and I hope I can give a slightly longer and more helpful answer in terms of where we are with that. He will know that the DWP became aware of the issue of state pensions underpayments —which was not addressed under previous Governments— in 2020 and took immediate action to investigate the extent of the problem. The Government have fully committed to ensuring that any historical errors are put right as quickly as possible where underpayments are identified, and the DWP will contact the individuals to inform them of the changes to their state pension amount and of any arrears payment that they will receive. My department in its annual report and accounts, particularly for the year 2022-23, published on 6 July 2023 updated figures relating to estimated expenditure and the number of cases affected. The overall number of customers to be reviewed is approximately 678,000; of those, we estimate that 170,000 customers will be affected. Between 11 January 2021 and 31 March 2023, 263,350 cases were reviewed. I can reassure the noble Lord that the department is on track to complete the exercise for category BL and category D by the end of 2023—to get into some granular detail on this. I think I understand that, and I hope the noble Lord will be reassured by it. For missed conversion cases, the exercise will run to late 2024—the end of next year.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked a specific question about whether there was any opposition to retaining the Hampshire judgment. The answer is that there was very little opposition—hardly any, although I am not sure I can give her any more information on that—to retaining it from stakeholders. I think it was to do with the Hampshire judgment that the noble Baroness raised.

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

On that last point, the Minister mentioned the Private Member’s Bill, but my question was actually about when the Government were planning to implement its provisions—perhaps he could give me a steer on that. I would be grateful if he would read Hansard because, if he thinks that he has answered the questions, I perhaps did not shape them as precisely as I had intended. Could he have a look at that and then come back to me?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Most certainly— I am grateful that the noble Baroness has put me right on the precise question. I knew what she was asking at the time. On the timing and where we are with the rollout of the Private Member’s Bill, I do not have that to hand—actually, it has been handed to me, so perhaps I do; it is one I prepared earlier. The consultation on implementation is coming soon—I am aware that a consultation comes out of that Private Member’s Bill—but, in terms of actual dates, I am afraid I cannot go any further. But I hope that that directly answered that particular question. I feel that a letter is due. A lot of questions were asked about exactly how this should be, and I pledge to answer them all fully if I have not done so this afternoon.

Motion agreed.

Occupational Pension Schemes (Amendment) (Equal Treatment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Occupational Pension Schemes (Amendment) (Equal Treatment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023.

Motion agreed.

Pensions Act 2004 (Amendment) (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) Regulations 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Pensions Act 2004 (Amendment) (Pension Protection Fund Compensation) Regulations 2023.

Motion agreed.