Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Robin Millar Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 18th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

I will make a little progress.

Significant reform will be needed in other areas, which is why the powers in the Bill are necessary. The people of the UK expect and deserve positive regulatory reform to boost the economy. Via this Bill, we will deliver reform across more than 300 policy areas. We cannot be beholden to a body of law that grows more obsolete by the day just because some in this House see the EU as the fount of all wisdom.

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is setting out a very powerful case. On the one hand, she is making the case that in Britain we have many laws that are superior and offer greater benefits and protections to residents, and on the other hand, she is making the self-evident point that we should unshackle ourselves from laws that will become increasingly historical, some of which were assimilated into British statute without scrutiny.

Will the devolved Administrations be able to preserve retained EU law where it relates to devolved areas of competence?

[Ms Ghani]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If the law is already devolved, the devolved Administrations have the ability to assimilate, amend or revoke, which is why some of the interventions from Opposition Members are slightly absurd. Why would they not want the opportunity to have a review? If the devolved Administrations want to assimilate the law, they can. If they want to amend it, they can. If they wish to revoke it, they have that choice. Why would the devolved Administrations not want to embrace the powers this Bill will give them?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). Bluntly, we do not agree on much, but I do not doubt his enthusiasm for the subject. If what he is on comes in powder form, I would be grateful if he could slip me over some wraps—I think I am missing out on quite a journey.

Much as we disagree with the substance and content of the Bill, it is a pleasure to speak in the debate. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara), who did much of the heavy lifting throughout its earlier stages and who, for his troubles, was rewarded by metamorphosing into our Chief Whip so he cannot be here today. I am pleased to carry on his work. The fact that he has maintained his sunny disposition and sanity during the process is testament to his fortitude, because when I read the earlier proceedings, I could not help thinking that they were some sort of satirical effort written by Armando Iannucci, Ian Hislop, Paul Foot or—to go back a bit further—Jonathan Swift or Lewis Carroll; I very much enjoyed “Nusrat in Wonderland” during the Minister’s opening speech.

I will focus on our amendments 29, 30, 31 and 33. We will press amendment 28 to a vote, because we believe that it is worth checking the mood of House. I will come on to the detail of that in due course.

I will speak about our philosophy and approach to the Bill, and about its import. I have never been more conscious of the difference in world view between Government Members and my party and country. We did not see the EU as a prison to leave or as undemocratic. EU laws were passed in conjunction with the democratically elected UK Government and democratically elected MEPs in the Council. The hon. Member for Stone talked about the codified basis of EU legislation, and he is right about that in codified jurisdictions, but to enter into the domestic legal framework of these islands, it had to be dealt with via statutory instrument. I really do not think, therefore, that the starting point of the Bill is correct.

I will give our bona fides. SNP Members deeply regret leaving the EU, as does my country, which voted against it. We in Scotland were taken out against our democratic will, so although the hon. Gentleman talks about a democratic deficit, Government Members should worry far more about the democratic deficit in the UK than the one in the EU. I see their smirks, as ever, but it is not just us that they are denigrating—it is the people of Scotland. In the last opinion poll, 72% of the people of Scotland wanted to go back into the European Union. We hear that Brexit has been such a success, but in 2016, the UK economy was 90% the size of the German economy and it is now 70%. If anybody would like to prove me wrong about that, they can try. These are facts.

I accept the democratic mandate that some hon. Members talk about, but in terms of where we are coming from with the Bill, I hope that Government Members respect our pro-EU sentiment, because it is deeply felt. To be clear, this is a matter of deep sadness and anger for us, but I am not interested in fighting old battles. I am interested in fighting future ones, however, and we will have plenty of those.

I say to Government Members: “If you will do this damn silly thing, don’t do it in this damn silly way.” I do not agree with the premise or the intent of this legislation, but it is the content that will quickly come back to haunt the Government, in exactly the same way that many other mistakes that were harrumphed to the rafters in this House came back to haunt the Government who tried to deny that they had anything to do with them.

[Robin Millar]

The hon. Gentleman makes some interesting and thoughtful points. How, then, did leaving the European Medicines Agency come back to haunt the country, given that we were free to invest in and create a vaccine that has benefited others because we were not part of it?

[Alyn Smith]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned that often-quoted canard. As a starter, the European Medicines Agency had 700 jobs in London, which were lost. There was also absolutely nothing in the UK’s response to covid that membership or otherwise of it hindered; it is important to get that point across. It is perfectly legitimate to have wanted to leave the EU or the European Medicines Agency, but let us not claim that successes were predicated on things that they were not.

What I find so objectionable about the Bill is that it is unnecessary. I am really not interested in fighting old battles, but the people who voted leave and wanted to take back control of our laws and so on won—it happened, so get over it! They are not so much bad losers as bad winners. Every single law, regulation or standard, however it was derived through the EU channels over the long history of the UK’s involvement in it, is subject to this House and this Government—right now. Any legislative instrument that the UK Government want to amend, repeal or bin is open to that authority in the House right now, so there is a deeply ideological mistake in the Bill that, even at this stage, I urge hon. Members to think hard about.

The fact that we do not know how many legislative instruments will be affected by the scope of this Bill should give a sensible, rational Government pause. I do not dispute the idea that a greater complementarity of the domestic statute book is desirable: I am in favour of the codification of all UK and Scots law. If the UK had a unified Gesetzbuch the way the German Government have, we would have a far more logical legislative framework, but we do not need to set arbitrary deadlines that are going to come back to haunt our own officials and Ministers for the artificial black hole that will open up over various Whitehall Departments. That will not give any legislative certainty. It will give the opposite: there will be a chill effect over deeply held rights.

For those who want to take back control, I do not dispute the logic of the idea. If there is a particular legacy piece of EU legislation that is not fit for purpose, it is open to the Government to get rid of it through the normal legislative process, but this Bill is not the normal legislative process. We have heard much about parliamentary scrutiny, but this Bill is a huge blank cheque for here today, gone tomorrow Ministers who have demonstrated throughout the Brexit process a lack of foresight and competence. That is not a sensible thing to do. I appreciate that there is a degree of scrutiny over subordinate legislation, but it is nowhere near as good as the scrutiny of this House, which is why we will support amendment 38, which would make it clear that this House, and not here today, gone tomorrow Ministers, should be in charge of that process.

The idea is that the abolition of laws will lead to some sort of dynamism and freedom, but it will not. It will lead to legislative black holes into which bad actors will expand very quickly. The idea that the UK Government are properly set up to take due account of that, when they cannot even tell us how many instruments are under consideration, should be of concern.

So I do not like this Bill, and I really fear that the Government are making problems for themselves, because this legislation is neither rational, proportionate nor pragmatic. The idea that particular domestic provisions—they are all domestic provisions now; they have all been incorporated into domestic UK law—should, because of their origin rather than their content, somehow lapse is an utterly flawed premise.

Oral Answers to Questions

Robin Millar Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

12. What steps he is taking to support the growth of science and innovation through the Government's levelling-up agenda.

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

16. What steps he is taking to support the growth of science and innovation through the Government's levelling-up agenda.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (George Freeman)]

As part of our step-change increase in investment in science research an innovation—an increase of 30% over the next three years to £20 billion a year—we are putting levelling up at the heart of our investment through clusters around the country. That is why we are putting £200 million into the strength in places fund for 12 projects across the UK; making the groundbreaking pledge that 55% of BEIS funding will go outside the greater south-east; launching three innovation accelerators in Glasgow, Manchester and the west midlands; and extending eight freeports, with two in Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[George Freeman]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, because this is the third time that he has raised this matter with me. He makes in important point. The Boeing interest in Doncaster Sheffield airport is part of our plan to grow an aerospace cluster around the whole of the UK. I very much welcome the opportunity to visit him and meet Boeing and local stakeholders.

[Robin Millar]

Last September, Llandudno in Aberconwy was identified as having the fastest economic recovery in the UK and, last week, an analysis of Companies House filings identified it as the start-up capital of the UK. I pay tribute to the entrepreneurs and businesses for making that happen. Will my hon. Friend the Minister join me in Llandudno with some of those entrepreneurs to see how we can nurture those green shoots, secure the growth and turn Llandudno into a growth and enterprise hub for north Wales?

[George Freeman]

With pleasure. My hon. Friend makes an important point: the Welsh dragon is roaring not just on the rugby pitch and in tourism, where Llandudno is the queen of Welsh resorts, but in the science, research and innovation economy. With the north Wales energy corridor, the south Wales life sciences cluster and plant health at Aberystwyth, Wales is a science and innovation engine that we intend to support. I pay tribute to his work in the area and look forward to visiting the Llandudno cluster as part of our work on supporting clusters around the UK.

Small Modular Reactors and Energy Security

Robin Millar Excerpts

Wednesday 19th January 2022 Westminster Hall

[Virginia Crosbie]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I am looking forward to an invitation to visit Caithness and see at first hand how important hydrogen is, how it can be linked with nuclear and how we can, I hope, come up with pink hydrogen. In my constituency of Anglesey, we are fortunate to be developing the Holyhead hydrogen hub, which the hon. Member might like to visit.

With much of the European gas supply transiting the continent through central and eastern Europe, the UK and other western European nations are at risk of Russian action to influence the price of wholesale gas and supply through Russian pipelines. Worse still, many of the other sources of gas for heating and industry also come from unstable parts of the globe. The UK is facing an existential crisis in energy supply that ultimately leaves the country exposed to soaring energy costs and potential electricity blackouts if we are unable to secure affordable, home-grown energy long term.

Addressing our energy needs is an urgent priority for the UK. We must build our way out of this overreliance on foreign energy by developing our indigenous supply in a way that is compatible with our COP26 and net zero commitments. To meet the requirements of the sixth carbon budget, we will need all new cars, vans and replacement boilers to be zero carbon in operation by the early 2030s. To move people towards the use of electricity while hitting net zero production by 2035, we must quickly move away from generating that electricity from fossil fuels. Britain currently has slim spare capacity in electrical power generation to feed those changes, leaving both our energy supply and our security under threat.

There is an obvious solution on the horizon. Nuclear power, which has been a neglected part of our energy mix, can bridge the gap. SMRs provide a once-in-a-generation opportunity for the UK to develop a new, global industry sector that will contribute to the country’s long-term energy security. A single SMR located on Anglesey in my constituency could produce enough energy for the whole of north Wales, which is primarily rural. A large plant in the same location could power the whole of Wales—with a little bit left over for England, if we are feeling generous.

Not only are SMRs easier to finance, but a factory build in controlled conditions means that they could be up and running as soon as 2028.

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech about how SMRs are of value not just to the UK, but beyond its shores. In Aberconwy I talk to farmers—they are the custodians of some three quarters of the constituency, and they produce some of the finest lamb and beef in the world—and I am hearing from them already that the impact of energy costs mean that bills are rising by up to £1,000 a month. Will she urge the Minister to meet with farmers and farmers’ representatives in Wales to make sure that is taken into consideration in looking at the energy supply?

[Virginia Crosbie]

My hon. Friend and neighbour from the beautiful constituency of Aberconwy makes a very important point. In his previous roles, the Minister has been keen to reach out to the farming community. He has already committed to coming to visit Anglesey and Wylfa Newydd, and I am sure he will reach out to the important rural and farming communities as part of that visit.

When it becomes law, the Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill will give developers a guaranteed return on their investment and lower the cost of raising the capital required to build a power station; that accounts for much of the cost of nuclear projects. We have already seen the regulated asset base model used for infrastructure projects in London, such as the Thames Tideway tunnel, and using it in Wales to finance new nuclear will make a big difference in levelling up the UK.

There has been rapid progress in recent months. Rolls-Royce has received the green light to develop its SMR technology, with match funding from the UK Government. The Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill will also make a big difference in allowing new sources of funding for nuclear projects. There are other exciting SMR technologies that can help the UK reduce its dependence on expensive foreign energy.

The generation IV molten salt reactors developed by Terrestrial Energy not only have the potential to provide clean energy to the grid, but could provide scalable clean hydrogen for industry. Boiling water reactors, such as that developed by GE Hitachi, deliver clean, flexible baseload energy, too. There is a real opportunity for the UK to take a lead in this field, supported by engineering firms such as Assystem and Bechtel, as well as the wider UK supply chain, which can support the development of all different types of SMR reactors.

This Government have made some impressive funding commitments so far, with the recent Budget allocating £1.7 billion of public funds to support new nuclear projects. The Government have committed to £385 million in the advanced nuclear fund, £215 million for small modular reactors, £170 million for research and development on advanced modular reactors and £120 million for the enabling fund announced in the net zero strategy. Finally, there is an additional £40 million for developing regulatory frameworks and supporting UK supply chains. That is very welcome, but given the scale of the potential energy crisis, there is scope for the Government to do more. The UK should be looking at contingency plans to get new SMRs into play as soon as possible to replace fossil fuel generation.

Subsidy Control Bill (Seventh sitting)

Robin Millar Excerpts

Thursday 4th November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Bill Esterson]

The hon. Gentleman is wearing a mask, so I will give way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robin Millar]

Is it not precisely the point that this does reflect the devolved agreement, because the Secretary of State has those reserved powers?

[Bill Esterson]

I think the hon. Gentleman missed the point I was making, but there we go. It is entirely appropriate, given that the regime is a four-nation regime, that the four nations have the powers of call-in to the CMA in the way that our amendment sets out.

[Robin Millar]

This is an important point, so I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again so soon. There is no four nations concept within our constitution. We have one United Kingdom Government and three devolved Administrations. Four nations is something reserved for rugby matches and the vernacular—[Interruption.] Indeed, the rugby is six. It is not something within our constitution. He has referred to the four nations on several occasions, and on this occasion I feel it is important and relevant to make that point.

[Bill Esterson]

I suspect that more than one party would be very interested in repeating those remarks multiple times, certainly in two of the nations of this country. They are called nations within the devolved settlement; we have a devolution settlement that has “four nations” within it. It will be interesting to see how many times the hon. Gentleman is quoted saying that.

I will quote what George Peretz told us about why it matters that there should be a call-in power for all four nations:

“In a situation where an English local authority, the Secretary of State or another UK Government body acting as an English Department does something that is designed to benefit England but causes serious concern in Scotland or Wales, why should the Welsh or Scottish Ministers not be able to do the same thing if the concern is with competition or investment within the United Kingdom? I find it slightly hard to see what the argument against that is.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 44, Q63.]

I have not heard from either the hon. Member for Clwyd South or the hon. Member for Aberconwy an argument against what he told us last week.

Rachel Merelie, senior director for the Office for the Internal Market at the CMA, noted:

“It is really important that all granting authorities are treated fairly and equitably, regardless of whether they are in the devolved nations or in England.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 69, Q98.]

I am not the only one talking about the devolved nations by any means; we have it from the CMA.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bill Esterson]

We have concerns about the way the clause allows the Secretary of State to use regulations to affect the content and form of CMA reports. This is a question of the CMA’s independence. On the Competition and Markets Authority website, it describes itself as

“an independent non-ministerial department”.

The CMA’s work

“is overseen by a Board, and led by the Chief Executive and senior team. Decisions in…investigations are made by independent members of a CMA panel.”

In contrast, the clause would empower the Secretary of State to amend, by using regulations, the content of the CMA’s reports. It is very hard to see how this is anything other than a direct contradiction of the principle of independence, baked into the CMA’s set-up.

The timing of the change, given the shameful proceedings in the Commons Chamber yesterday, leaves the suspicion that it is, again, about removing the principle of independence from the heart of the CMA’s role. We saw this with the Prime Minister’s own adviser on ministerial standards, Sir Alex Allan, resigning because of the breach of the ministerial code, and we saw it yesterday with members of the ruling party scrapping the rules or attempting to scrap the rules on MPs’ conduct because one of their own was found guilty of what the Standards Committee described as an “egregious” breach and then wanting to scrap the role of the independent standards commissioner.

[Robin Millar]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Bill Esterson]

Of course, they will all want to intervene—

Subsidy Control Bill (Fifth sitting)

Robin Millar Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Seema Malhotra]

I thank the Minister for his comments, but I must say that I do not feel that they have so far moved us forward in tackling the very serious issues that the debate has started to uncover. I also want to refer to his consultation as an illustration of how complex this is and how it requires further considered discussion, also in the light of the risks of things going wrong. A system works well when we plan for things to go wrong. When we do that, things will largely go better, because we have managed the risks and taken them seriously. As an example, page 45 of the consultation states:

“The consultation also asked for views on whether there should be a minimum threshold of £50,000 below which no subsidies have to be reported. 14% of respondents answered this question. Of those that responded, 64% agreed there should be a minimum threshold of £50,000.”

It goes on with differing views across differing areas. That comes back not just to how the regime will be used by those who use it in good faith but to where things can go wrong. We must ensure that there are measures, boundaries and transparency in place to prevent things going wrong and to protect the public purse. Value for money surely must be a consideration—more than it seems to be for the Government from the comments that we have heard so far. This requires a much more considered debate. We need to consider some of the evidence and the risks again.

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I think that it is important that we pay attention to those matters, so I am grateful for the discussion, which I am following with interest. However, I have some familiarity with grant schemes in local authorities. One of the first questions that we, as a subsidy-awarding body, were asked was, “Has anybody else given you money?” It seems sensible for any subsidy-awarding body to ask a potential recipient of a subsidy whether they have applied for or received a subsidy elsewhere. If they fail to declare it, that is a case of fraud.

[Seema Malhotra]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comment. If he thinks that there should be such a requirement or that that should be in the guidance, perhaps he might raise it with his own Front Bench. It is important to have some of those checks in place. However, where fraud might be taking place, or there is an impact of—perhaps genuine—cumulative subsidies, whose responsibility is it? If an enterprise has been in receipt of multiple subsidies and does not declare them, where are they declared? If feedback to the local authority or the public authority is incomplete, how do we find out, unless subsidies are on the database and it is then much easier to search and identify them?

There is a lot more to be taken away from this discussion in terms of inefficiency and higher risk of fraud—or, if not fraud, perhaps some forms of maladministration or error. A transparent and full database would reduce the risk of many of those issues arising, and would then reduce the cost of seeking pre-action information or judicial review. Why must we clog up our tribunals with matters that could have been avoided had we had better control systems in the first place? A transparent and full database would ensure the value for money not just of the subsidy but of what the system demands and who pays for checks and balances later in the process.

The complexity of some of those issues requires us to think them through in more detail. I will not be pushing amendment 35 today, but we certainly plan to return to it in later stages of the Bill.

Subsidy Control Bill (Sixth sitting)

Robin Millar Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman]

The hon. Gentleman said that it is almost certain—probable, at least—that the Secretary of State would do so, but it is not certain. The amendment allows an actual mechanism for the devolved Administrations to make that request. It also makes it clear that if the Secretary of State refuses a request of this nature, they have to explain why. That is very important for transparency. This transparency issue is also important—

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

What would the logic would be if the situation were reversed, so that the UK Government wished to declare a natural emergency, but the devolved Administration did not? Has the hon. Member given that any thought?

[Kirsty Blackman]

That is nothing to do with the subject of this amendment, which is specifically about the devolved Administrations being able to ask. If the Secretary of State wishes to declare a natural disaster, and Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland does not want them to declare it, there is no mechanism for that—we do not have the powers to do that.

On the issue that was raised by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, it is important that the devolved Administrations have this mechanism because, as has been stated earlier, trust is at an all-time low. We have been very clear that some of the relationships between the devolved Administrations and the UK Government are not in a particularly good place right now. Building this provision in means that there is an additional safeguard in place, so that those places that know their areas best and know the effect on those areas better than Westminster does, because they are closer, are able to make that request.

Subsidy Control Bill (Fourth sitting)

Robin Millar Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to take part in the Committee’s proceedings with you in the Chair, Ms Nokes. I want to say a couple of things. I agree with almost everything that the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston said, apart from the idea that the Secretary of State should have powers over what happens in Scotland, because obviously I believe that Scotland should be independent—but that is probably an argument for another day.

The powers of the Scottish Parliament were voted for democratically in a referendum that showed the Scottish people’s will that a Scottish Parliament should be created. Those powers have been discussed on many occasions, including in subsequent Scotland Acts. The powers of the Scottish Parliament, having been agreed democratically, are part of our democracy, whereas the powers that Westminster has do not seem to have ever been discussed or voted on democratically.

As regards what the Opposition spokesperson said about upholding the democratic nature of the United Kingdom and the democratic powers of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly, I think it is really important that the ability to make streamlined subsidy schemes be included. If the Government are going to talk about levelling up, which I am sure they will—they generally do on such matters—they should consider that those devolved bodies, which are elected to represent those areas, have a huge amount of knowledge and are much closer to the places they represent. They should be able to make streamlined subsidy schemes too, because I believe, as many people do, that they would make them better than Westminster is likely to.

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Nokes. It is important to recognise what the constitution of the UK says, and that is very clearly that powers and competences are reserved to the United Kingdom Government. We do not have a system of equivalence; there is no equivalence between a devolved Government and the UK Government, because sovereignty rests here. I know that equivalence features in some of the contributions we are hearing, but there is no place for it in our constitution. The devolved powers and competences are very clearly defined, which is absolutely correct. The suggestion that the Secretary of State’s powers should be replicated elsewhere does not fit with our proper constitutional model.

In response to the comment from the hon. Member for Aberdeen North about powers being discussed and voted on, we do of course discuss and vote on powers in the UK Government every time there is a general election, and frequently through sittings like this too, so I am happy that there is extensive consideration of them.

On the point about streamlining, it is important to understand some of the limitations, which are themselves discussed within the devolved Administrations, in particular on the number of elected members. For example, there is currently a discussion within the Welsh Senedd about increasing the number of its Members, and one of the reasons is to improve its ability to scrutinise itself. For all those reasons, I hope that I have made a helpful contribution to the discussion.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Is the hon. Member’s concern about streamlined subsidy schemes that he does not believe the Welsh Senedd has enough Members to agree to such schemes?

[Robin Millar]

No, I was observing that there is a discussion taking place within the Senedd about the number of Members, and one of the arguments for increasing that number is about improved scrutiny, because having more Members would allow for greater and more effective scrutiny of internal operation, and therefore any decision made, whether on a streamlined subsidy scheme, funding, grants or whatever, would benefit from that extra scrutiny.

[Paul Scully]

Streamlined subsidy schemes have an important role to play in supporting public authorities to deliver well-designed subsidies: subsidies that address market failures but minimise the risk of excessive distortion to competition, investment and trade and that are not subject to mandatory or voluntary referral to the subsidy advice unit under the provisions of chapter 1 or part 4. The Government intend that streamlined subsidy schemes will be a pragmatic means of establishing schemes for commonly awarded subsidies, including in areas of UK strategic priority, that all public authorities in the UK would able to use if they wish. They will therefore function best when they apply across the entire UK. The Government will design them so that they are fit to be used in all parts of the UK. In addition, clause 10 sets out the procedural requirements when making a streamlined subsidy scheme, including the requirement that it is laid before Parliament.

The practical effect of the amendment would be to require devolved Administration Ministers to lay streamlined subsidy schemes before the UK Parliament, both when they are made and if they are modified. The appropriateness of that procedure is questionable, given that devolved Ministers are not directly accountable to the UK Parliament.

Subsidy Control Bill (Second sitting)

Robin Millar Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Thank you very much for those answers. As you will be aware, concerns have been raised that the role, voice and powers of the devolved Administrations within the regime may not be strong enough, particularly for a four-nations approach. It has been suggested that that should be addressed and the Bill strengthened. Are there specific areas that you would say need to be strengthened?

Ivan McKee: A four-nations approach clearly has to take recognition of areas of devolved responsibility, be that for agriculture, forestry, fisheries, environment, economic development and so on. A range of areas on which the Bill impinges are devolved under the settlement. So clearly that is a concern.

I suppose another concern about the Bill’s general operation is the lack of the option, or requirement, under the EU regime for pre-notification or advance approval. In advance of an award or a subsidy being made, that gave certainty that it was aligned with the rules in place. The absence of that in this Bill creates a great deal of uncertainty as to what is allowable and what is not in advance of any subsidy decisions being made.

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Q It is a pleasure to be here with you in the Chair, Ms Nokes.

Welcome to this Committee of the UK Government, Mr McKee. We are discussing a UK Government instrument and within that there are provisions made for the role of the devolved Administrations. Clause 10 gives the devolved Administrations scope to set their own scheme of subsidies. Is that your understanding? Do you feel that that provides the Scottish Government with the powers to do what they need to do?

Ivan McKee: No, because the Secretary of State has powers over devolved areas that Scottish Government Ministers do not have, and that impinges on the devolution settlement. That settlement is quite clear on areas that are reserved and devolved, and it is the Scottish Government and Scottish Ministers who have the power to act and operate in those devolved areas. The Bill gives those powers to the Secretary of State and the UK Government, but it does not give equivalent powers to Scottish Government Ministers to operate likewise in devolved areas.

[Robin Millar]

Q I will ask the question in a slightly different way, then: does the Bill give you powers to do things that you were not able to do when the UK was part of the EU?

Ivan McKee: As I have said before, we believe that we should be in the European Union. The scope that we had within the European Union to be able to give subsidy, within a controlled environment, was very clear. We were able to get clarity in advance of making any subsidies as to whether it complied or not. There was clarity about that process that does not exist under the current proposals.

[Robin Millar]

I think the point you are making—

Ivan McKee: To answer your question, we don’t know. We do not know until we have made a subsidy and then someone decides that they want to challenge that at some point down line. Until then, we will not know whether we have the authority to do what we think we might like to do.

[Robin Millar]

Q If I understand you correctly, you are saying that when we were within the EU, there was certainty that came from being told what we could and could not do. May I suggest that clause 10 gives the devolved Administrations scope to set their own subsidies? That was not a freedom that you had when we were in the EU.

Ivan McKee: No, because that would be open to challenge potentially further down the line, and we would not have clarity in advance about whether it was open to challenge or not, and what the conclusion of any challenge may be.

[Robin Millar]

Q I am grateful that you used the word “potentially” because there is not a certainty around that; it is only potential. The fact is that clause 10 does set the freedoms for the devolved Administrations to set their own subsidy schemes, so I am grateful to you for confirming that.

We have just had very interesting evidence from Mr Greenberg, who is the Parliamentary Counsel for the House of Commons concerned with domestic legislation. He said that we should not be complaining about a skeleton Bill because we should not be focused on detail so much as on ensuring that it gives us the freedoms that we want to do the things we do. I just come back to clause 10 and I wonder again what your response is to that. Do you feel that the clause gives you freedoms?

Ivan McKee: Again, I don’t think that that is the case, because there is no advance approval. At the moment, there are several proposals on my desk that we are considering, and have done in the past. The process is that you go through a consideration, and then assess and get clarification on whether it would be allowable, or would breach state aid rules. If we are in an environment where you go ahead and do things and then you may get called up later on it because there is no clarity in advance as to whether it complies, clearly you can say that we must do something, but if it is then ruled non-compliant at a later stage because you did not know that in advance, that is a freedom that is not worth much.

[Robin Millar]

Q A final question, because I am really trying to get to the bottom of this point: would you be happier if the UK Government told you what to do?

Ivan McKee: No, I would be happier if there were clear rules for everybody across the UK that had been agreed with all parts of the UK, so that everybody knew exactly what that level playing field was, everybody knew what the rules were in advance, and there was a process for clarification before you took very important decisions about subsidies and economic development for very good reasons: to support businesses, industries, communities and parts of Scotland. I would be happy if we knew in advance that those things were clear and allowable, and if the Bill respected the powers of the devolved Administrations with respect to the devolution settlement.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Thank you, Ivan, for coming along this afternoon. There are a couple of points that I wish to make, if I may. First, we heard this morning from Dr Pazos-Vidal, who said that the Bill is not reflective of the territorial constitution of the UK as it stands. This afternoon, we heard some comments from George Peretz QC that alluded to the wider discussion about the fact that BEIS could ultimately seek to invest in projects, be they in Wales, England, or indeed Scotland, and that those projects could have a consequence upon the devolution settlement—they could be at odds with the intentions of the Scottish Government. Do you believe there is an issue there, given the fact that, ultimately, it will be only BEIS that has the ability to refer such matters to the CMA? Do you believe that the Scottish Government, along with the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly, should have the ability to refer such matters, should they feel that those matters impinge upon devolution and they want to challenge the situation as it stands?

Secondly, I would be grateful if you could expand upon your concerns in relation to agriculture, because I know it has been spoken about at length.

Ivan McKee: With regard to your first point, yes, of course that is a concern. It is lopsided, it is asymmetrical and it gives BEIS powers in devolved areas that it does not give to the devolved Administrations. Those are, to say the least, problematic with regards to devolved Administrations operating in areas of devolved competency. That is clearly of significant concern. I did not hear all the earlier evidence—I dipped in and out of some parts—but I am aware that those comments you referred to were made, and that does support the view that we have. It is not just ourselves: the Welsh Government and, I believe, the Northern Ireland Executive also have concerns regarding the powers that the Bill gives to the Secretary of State in devolved areas that are not reflected with equivalent powers for Scottish Government Ministers.

With regards to agriculture, our concern is that income support mechanisms for agriculture that would have been outside the scope of an EU subsidy control regime are inside the scope of the Bill, which raises concerns about the extent to which we can apply such income support mechanisms within the agriculture sector in Scotland, and of course elsewhere. That is a concern for us: we believe that agriculture should be excluded from the Bill, and I understand that an amendment could be coming forward with that objective in mind.

Subsidy Control Bill

Robin Millar Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd September 2021 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)]

I am seriously pleased to see the Bill coming forward. It is much needed, not just because, as the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) pointed out, it is a fulfilment of our international obligations, but because, as the Secretary of State rightly said, before we went into the EU and had any kind of proper subsidy control regime, it was pretty much a free-for-all and I am afraid that, no matter who was in government, broadly speaking, the lack of rules was terrible.

Politicians on all sides and of all stripes over an extended period have a dreadful track record in yielding to temptation, particularly when they are being lobbied hard by someone pleading desperately for this or that piece of help—it’s just one more wafer-thin subsidy, sir. We give way. We all do—it is only human—and it is a long proven fact that politicians are terrible at picking winners, but losers are really good at picking politicians. It is therefore essential that, as we come out of the EU, we have our UK-only version of a rules-based system in place. The Secretary of State is right to move towards that, even if we did not have those international obligations to deliver it.

I am also pleased to see the seven principles that are the core of the approach, backed up by various other environmental principles as well. They start with the notion that there must be a market failure before any form of taxpayers’ cash can start to be dished out. We can all think of businesses in the past—perhaps even today—that would have liked nothing better than to reach their sticky fingers into the taxpayers’ pockets and extract some cash to make their lives better, their shareholders’ lives simpler and their management’s lives easier. It is therefore absolutely right that the Secretary of State has limited his own freedom—and, more particularly, that of his successors—so that we can have, we hope, a consistent approach and we will not have open season for Government failure. We always talk about market failure in this place, but that principle is crucial for avoiding Government failure in future.

That is a point I made in the Government-commissioned report I was asked to write by the Secretary of State’s predecessor on competition policy. Self-denial is absolutely essential to make sure that we do not start splashing around taxpayers’ cash in an unproductive way and subsidising commercially hopeless cases because they have good lobbyists. The trouble is that the more hopeless they are but the deeper pockets they have and the better lobbyists they have, the harder it is to avoid that kind of temptation.

This is a welcome and necessary Bill, and it is vitally important. As my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom) said earlier, I do not think we should have any truck with the notion that we were not one of the most prolific users of subsidies when we were still part of the EU. We ranked relatively low in the league table against other countries in the EU in our use of subsidies, and as a free marketeer I think that should be a badge of honour. It shows that we are in general allowing capitalism to run and allowing capitalist animal spirits to move resources, investment and productive assets around our economy in the most efficient way to drive our economic growth. Ultimately, it is that economic growth that pays for the public services we all care about, and that we all need and rely on as well. So yes to capitalism and yes to avoiding distortions, discriminations and, dare I say it, potentially the risks of political favouritism if we do not have these rules in place and a rules-based system. I am delighted that this Bill is here, and it establishes some really important principles for all of us.

There is one small fly in the ointment, which I will mention now. I do not want to try your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, by going into things that will I am sure be properly covered both in Committee and on Report. I will mention the principle at this stage—it has already been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) and by others—and it is the point about transparency. The Secretary of State has made that a central point, and he is absolutely right to say that he wants to establish the UK as one of the leading examples of subsidy transparency in, I think, the world. I may be misquoting him slightly, but I am sure the principle is one he would sign up to.

That is an absolutely core piece because if we do not have such transparency—if we cannot see what these subsidies are or we cannot see what they are until it is too late—how on earth are we to know that this excellent new set of rules-based principles are being followed properly or not? Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as we all know, and exposing this to public scrutiny cannot be bad. Because we are setting up this rules-based system, we should have nothing to hide. If we are worried about transparency, that is always a bad sign in the first place. Therefore, the central principle, which the Secretary of State and his fellow Ministers have already enunciated, is entirely the right one.

My concern is therefore not with the principle that the Secretary of State has enunciated; it is whether or not this Bill will actually deliver the principle in the way he hopes. This is a technical concern, not one of principle at all, but the technical concern is real. We have left the EU, but the EU’s basic rules for disclosure required us to disclose subsidies of above €500,000. The new Bill, as we have heard, has a variety of different exemptions, but broadly speaking it requires us to disclose subsidies of above £500,000. That means we will be disclosing fewer subsidies in future than we were under the EU because the threshold is higher. It is not the only threshold; there are other thresholds. One of them is even higher still, at £725,000, for public interest subsidies of one kind or another, which I think is for subsidising things such as buses and social housing. All those things may very well need subsidies, but why are we being secretive about it? Why should we not make this public?

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

There are very specific exclusions for inclusion on the central database. Would my hon. Friend extend his argument to consideration of those excluded items as well?

[John Penrose]

There are a couple of exclusions that I think make an awful lot of sense. For example, there is an exclusion about national security, which I hope everybody on all sides of this House would sign up to. However, in principle, to follow and frank the principle that the Secretary of State has rightly put across about how we want to be the most transparent about our use of subsidies—because it will show that we are following those rules, and that we are letting capitalism rip and therefore that productive assets are being used in the most effective way without distortion—in general there should be fewer exclusions, with only the minimal number of exclusions that is safe, although I completely accept that there will need to be some. There is no reason why we should worry about disclosing pretty much any subsidy, particularly because local councils, for example, already have to report anything they spend above £500. They already take records, keep notes, and publish those details, and it would be peculiar to say that although they have to declare spending above £500, they do not have to declare subsidies above £500,000. I am not sure that is terribly consistent.

The Secretary of State has rightly pointed out that when subsidies are notified they have to be turned round and approved or disapproved by the CMA within 30 days. That is entirely right. We need a prompt, nimble, and agile response in order for our economy to work in a prompt, nimble and agile way. It therefore seems odd, if I may put it politely, that we are allowing subsidies not to be registered for up to six months after they have been made. We will therefore have fewer subsidies declared, in a way that does not match what local councils already have to declare. Councils already have to keep such information and data; it is not something they will have to start doing from scratch, and all they will need to do is paste it on to a central database. They also do not have to put it out for six months. These are small technical tweaks, but they are central to delivering on the principle, which the Secretary of State rightly enunciated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Flynn]

That is an entirely fair and accurate point.

[Robin Millar]

From the Opposition Benches this afternoon, we are hearing a lot about asymmetry. In particular, we are hearing about a lack of involvement and so on. I will not make any points about sovereignty—I do not wish to go down that road—but I will make a simple observation and perhaps the hon. Gentleman can comment on it. Was that not the case when we were a part of the EU? We were directed into things. We did not have the same control he seems to think that they should have now.

[Stephen Flynn]

The hon. Member makes his point in his own way, but let me be clear. How can I put this? We do not think that the system that operated within the EU was one that we should have turned our back on. What did we turn our back on it for? Let me answer that briefly, as a slight anecdote: it was for Brexit—the chaos of Brexit. Food shortages, staff shortages, trade barriers, the chaos that we see—

[Robin Millar]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Stephen Flynn]

The hon. Member has had his say, and I am sure that he will make further contributions later.

Conservative Members come to this Chamber and tell us that Brexit will solve everything, but of course it has not; it has only made things worse for working people in our society. What we have before us, in no uncertain terms, is a Bill that undermines devolution, following on from the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and the shared prosperity fund. If they want to protect their Union, they are doing a damned good job of destroying it. Do some more!

--- Later in debate ---

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I sense a restlessness among colleagues, so my comments will be brief, and the moment we are all waiting for, when the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), gets to his feet, will be upon us shortly.

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, and it is only right and proper that UK law and a UK subsidy regime must prevail in that part of the United Kingdom. I hope, indeed, that they will be rejoicing on the streets. My understanding is that the Government have, in effect, made it clear that article 10 of the protocol is redundant, given that the subsequent trade and co-operation agreement establishes a framework of mutual recognition of state aid rules, with which the Bill complies. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that in his remarks.

I want to make a point about how the Bill supports devolution. We have heard Opposition Members refer—not universally, but on a couple of occasions—to how the Bill damages devolution. There is much that could be said about the gaps between the way the world is viewed by Opposition Members and the way it is viewed by Government Members, but one such gap has come through during this debate in the constant references to things that are missing. I suggest that that gap indicates different ways of looking at things: while Government Members are happy to set down principles within which business can flourish and prosper, it seems to me from the comments made today that Opposition Members are looking for a high degree of prescription about what can and cannot be done. Those are different ways of looking at the world.

Let me make it clear that I am a supporter of the principles behind devolution. I want to draw out three principles in particular: local leadership, broader accountability and shared prosperity. Sadly, the first, local leadership, has never really been fully realised in north Wales. To us, devolution has led to decision-making powers flowing south to Cardiff bay. In Scotland, too, we have seen a centralisation of powers, with decision-making powers drawn from the regions to Holyrood and reserved to the Government there.

As just one example—I could give many—we saw that in the disbursal of EU funds. Only 9% of EU funds spent in Wales made it as far as local authorities for decision making; the majority were decided on and spent from Cardiff bay. England has its own problems and challenges in this area, but, by contrast, the figure in England was 36%: four times as much money and decision making flowed out into the local authorities and the regions from Westminster. That is a telling tale, because the sense in north Wales is still that Cardiff is distant and remote—accusations that are typically laid against this place. The Bill will help to address that and give local authorities and even the devolved Administrations freedom to set up targeted, effective and practical schemes in their area.

I must say, though, that something has changed in the air in north Wales since the arrival of this Government in Westminster. The sense of alienation is starting to evaporate. Those who know the area of the world I am talking about will know that in the Conwy valley and Aberconwy, the morning mists start to roll down the valley at this time of year, and they are starting to evaporate now thanks to the Government’s involvement.

There is much that I could say about how the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 has changed things, but I will not, for reasons of time. I will say, though, that the prospect of inbound UK Government funds has rapidly mobilised my own council, Conwy County Borough Council. It is engaging with communities and leaders on their thoughts and plans for delivering change, and I am grateful for the support and engagement of its leader, Councillor Charlie McCoubrey, and the economy portfolio holder, Councillor Louise Emery. For my part, I have been meeting local councils, organisations, residents and business leaders in the community to seek their thoughts and advice, and there is no shortage of them.

The second principle that I would like to draw attention to is accountability. I welcome the universal reporting database being introduced through clause 33. My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) gave a tour de force on the benefits of the transparency that it will bring and even prescribed fresh air and sunshine to bring benefits to businesses.

The different reporting systems that exist in different parts of the UK have often clouded transparency and obscured comparisons. Wales and Scotland have different reporting regimes in many different areas—we have heard reference to patient waiting lists—and during the pandemic we have seen different local responses only causing further confusion. Key universal systems avoid such inconsistency, and the database provided for in the Bill will be one of those. They allow for public transparency and comparable information about how money is being spent in the UK.

[Stephen Flynn]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Robin Millar]

I will, as the hon. Gentleman gave way to me.

[Stephen Flynn]

I thank the hon. Member. He said at the start of his speech that he respected devolution and believed in the principles of devolution, yet throughout his speech all he has done is criticise it, to the point where he is now criticising local authorities in Scotland. Far be it from me to defend a Tory-led local authority in Aberdeen, but why is he criticising local authorities, and how does that marry with his support for devolution?

[Robin Millar]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I am not sure what he was listening to. Not one word of criticism of local authorities has passed my lips. I was explicit in starting my speech by addressing the principles of devolution. I suspect that he may be confusing the principles of it with the practice of it that he sees in Scotland. Accountability is important, and it has been allowed to slip, but I believe that the Bill addresses that by supporting and encouraging it.

The third and final principle that I want to mention is shared prosperity, which the Bill will support. Aberconwy has seen an impressive recovery from the pandemic, and according to some reports Llandudno has experienced the fastest recovery of any town in the UK. I pay tribute to those who are working so hard in their businesses, from Glenn Evans and his team at the Royal Oak in Betws-y-Coed to Clinton and his team at the Blend coffee shop on Clonmel Street in Llandudno. Right across Aberconwy, it is people like them who make that economic recovery a reality. We owe them a debt of thanks and gratitude for their hard work—it is not we in this place but they who make the difference, and I am grateful to them for it. The prospect of additional funds and subsidies coming their way—coming our way, into Aberconwy, directed by local leaders and businesses—provides the potential to capitalise on that endeavour, help economic recovery and bring forward the promise of a locally delivered prosperous future.

Of course, there is much to do. Other principles set out in part 2 of the Bill ensure that our internal market operates freely and without hindrance, avoiding the subsidy race that has already been referenced between different parts of the UK. Other parts of the Bill reduce bureaucracy and—again, I make this point—enable decision making by devolved Administrations in a targeted and effective way, faster and in a way that they could never do before.

Finally, I support the Government’s hopes for the Bill that it will enable a thriving competitive economy and, in north Wales, lead to the kind of investment that we want to see in renewable energy, road, rail and broadband connectivity, and, I hope, even a freeport. It is because I believe the Bill delivers on the principles of devolution and makes possible a prosperous future in Aberconwy that I will be voting in support of its Second Reading.