Subsidy Control Bill (Second sitting)

Stephen Flynn Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con)]

Q Thank you for your time this afternoon, Dr Barker; it is much appreciated. I wanted to look at the part of the Bill to empower local authorities, public bodies and central and devolved Governments, particularly the public bodies aspect. Do you see this as a welcome broadening-out of the routes by which subsidies can be brought to business, not only through central devolved Governments but through local authorities and public bodies?

Dr Barker: That is potentially welcome, but now we are extending subsidy-granting powers to a large number of bodies—about 500 in total. That will create a requirement that each of those bodies understands the principles for granting the subsidy and the processes that need to be gone through. They need to have some degree of expertise to guide business through the process in a confident way. In practice, that will probably mean that the subsidy advice unit in the CMA will be called on a good deal from a lot of those bodies for advice, information and to try to get an indication of whether the process being followed is the right one.

I am slightly concerned that consulting the subsidy advice unit may become a kind of quasi-obligatory stage in the subsidy approval process. The question is, will that delay things? Will it take away the nimbleness of the system? Does the subsidy advice unit have the necessary resources to deal with the hundreds of public bodies that will be consulting it? That is an uncertainty and a concern.

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

Q Thank you for your helpful answers and input so far, Dr Barker. I think earlier you alluded to—those who gave evidence this morning certainly alluded to it—the lack of detail behind the Bill, the lack of guidance and the powers that sit with the Secretary of State. That prevailing situation is unlikely to change before the Bill comes into law. Do you think that is a help or a hindrance to businesses as it stands?

Secondly, we know that historically the UK’s spend when it comes to state aid, as it is more commonly known, has fallen well below that of European partners. Do you think the Bill will change that in any way, shape or form? Is there any indication in the Bill as it stands that it will change, certainly from a business perspective?

Dr Barker: I do think that more clarity is needed around a number of the concepts in the Bill. The need for more detail increases with the number of public bodies that are being empowered to grant subsidies. To give some examples, there is uncertainty around what would constitute a subsidy of particular interest, which is a subsidy that requires much more detailed pre-assessment by the CMA. Will that apply to a significant proportion of potential subsidies, or will that be done just on an exceptional basis? The answer will affect the nature of the entire system. At the other end of the spectrum, I think we still lack detail about the streamlined subsidies that can benefit from fast-track approval.

Another area that is important, particularly for IoD members, is the extent to which this regime can facilitate the support of start-ups, particularly those companies that do not have a long-standing financial track record and are still some way from generating profit or even revenue. I think that the proposed regime in this respect is preferable to the previous European Union regime, which had a prohibition over supporting undertakings in difficulties, which really ruled out start-ups. Within this measure, the only thing that is ruled out is the support of ailing or insolvent companies, which increases the scope of what can be supported. However, we still need clarity about what kind of going-concern assessments will be conducted to ensure that a potential recipient is eligible.

To answer your first question, there is still some way to go to provide all the interested parties with more clarity about how the system will operate. With your regard to your second question—do I think that this framework indicates that we will have more state support of business?—in itself, the answer is no. As I said before, it provides a framework in which that kind of policy could be pursued, but there is nothing about it that necessarily implies that it will be pursued. As I have said previously, in certain sectors there is a need for a changed approach to match those of our key competitors. That is really how the IoD is viewing it—is it going to be useful for that purpose? The answer is that it could be.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Q Good afternoon, Dr Barker. I would like to go over a few things that you said and put them back to you to see if you have answers to the questions that you put to us. You began by talking about ideally having a system that is easy to navigate with enough certainty that businesses and awarding bodies are not going to be challenged. First, what is your top priority in the legislation that you would like to see strengthened or changed? Secondly—this comes back to a point that you made a couple of times about international comparisons; you talked about what our competitors are doing—what is the top thing that you would like to learn from which is going on internationally? On your point about the subsidy advice unit, is your big concern about lack of capacity in the Competition and Markets Authority?

Dr Barker: Yes. To address your first point, the factors that will ultimately make this most predictable include, first, guidance on the principles under which subsidies will be granted. It is a tricky balance between providing guidance that is too prescriptive, which becomes difficult to penetrate and understand, and, on the other hand, principles and advice that are too sparse and which try to be nimble but leave too much uncertainty on the table in specific instances. It is about finding the balance.

Secondly, it is about the subsidy advice unit operating effectively and being really useful, informative and timely in being able to assist the various parties and point them in the right direction. The third part of the process is the tribunal. One would hope that the number of cases coming to tribunal is minimised, but at least it provides timely, transparent and understandable rulings that assist parties in future in how they assess their ability to give subsidy. Those are my answers to that question.

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[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

Q How many, sorry?

Alexander Rose: Two hundred and fifty seven out of 501. In order to bring a digital review challenge, you are probably going to have to spend between £25,000 and £40,000, so if you are seeing a nil value, you are very unlikely to bring a claim.

Some of those are going to be schemes, and I will bring out some of the schemes on that website at the moment. SC10261, the Tees Valley Capital Grant Scheme, is listed as having been posted on the website on 1 April 2020, but the website did not exist on 1 April 2020. SC10388 is a real estate grant of £675,000 in Girton in Cambridgeshire—I picked this one because it is the last—and that one does not have a date at all. There is no way that somebody wanting to challenge would be able to know that date unless, as I have personally done, they have been saving the spreadsheets and comparing them.

Now, essentially, what we have here, therefore, is a mousetrap that is lacking a spring. Unfortunately, the Bill does not fix that. The way to fix it is at clause 32, which relates to the database, and it must expressly say that there needs to be two things. First and foremost, that information has to be included—the date it is actually entered and/or modified. Secondly, I think you need to end up having a search function that gives you three pieces of information. You need to have the date an entry was entered or modified; the name of the funder, because that is currently not searchable; and the name of the beneficiary, which is on there at the moment. Those are the three key pieces of information. The other element is, in order to capture that scenario where people simply are not putting into the database, you need to have some sanction if you fail to put it on.

The other issue that needs to be considered is that, at the moment, you have up to six months to put that information on the database. A large enough subsidy could make a business insolvent within that six months, so it feels to me that the period needs to be shorter. Likewise, the period to challenge needs to be longer. There is no obvious reason for having a shorter period for what is rightly described as the most important piece of post-Brexit legislation than for a planning permission judicial review. It should be longer. The next point is that there should be some level of sanction if that information is not put online. For example, maybe a sensible level would be the challenge period is extended to six months.

Jonathan Branton: The challenge period is not validly started if the right information is not put online. That is one way of looking at it. If it is not validly started, it never ends.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Thank you all for that very helpful information. There are perhaps two different elements of discussion in relation to the Bill going on here. Richard referred to the Bill perhaps providing more of a light touch in that regard, and it may well be beneficial. We heard from individuals earlier today in relation to the lack of guidance or understanding as to how the Bill will operate. How do you get to that conclusion, notwithstanding the lack of guidance that sits behind the Bill that is due to come from the Secretary of State in future? Ultimately, do you foresee a situation where the Bill will actually provide an increase in state aid, as I am sure your organisation would like to see?

Alexander and Jonathan, if I may say so, you gave quite a devastating indictment of current practices and we would all hope that the Bill will improve on that situation. Do you think it will, as it stands?

Alexander Rose: First and foremost, I think that the general structure of the Bill is good. I think it is quite sensible. My concern is in terms of those details. I think there is capacity to refine the Bill so it is better. I agree that transparency is a concern.

The other area I am very concerned about is the ability to create schemes because the schemes can then only be challenged in the period they are set up. Why that nil point is so important is that, essentially, you have got a situation where there is an unlawful aid––an unlawful subsidy––but you can only challenge it within the month the subsidy is set up. I struggle to see how an organisation could ever really know that it is going to be affected by that subsidy scheme unless it identifies the competitors who are going to get a subsidy and the amount.

Clause 70(2) needs to be amended to add some wording at the end along the lines of providing that, at the time of entry of information about the subsidy scheme on the subsidy database, sufficient information has been made available for an interested party to make an informed decision as to whether and to what extent their interest may be affected. To my mind, the transparency database and the addressing the schemes point are the two issues that will most damage the award of subsides in future if not rectified.

Jonathan Branton: I would second that. The transparency register is relatively easily fixed, I would have thought. The schemes point is a potential loophole that, if not closed, could lead to some frankly bad schemes being adopted and then being impervious to challenge on the basis that the time had passed since the scheme had been published, but the actual awards pursuant to that scheme were somehow protected.

That is at odds with the fundamental principle that interested parties ought to be able to see what is out there and affecting them so that they may challenge it, and they cannot see that until an actual award has been made to a competitor or another party in which they are interested. Until cash is parted with, they do not see that, and that is arguably at odds with at least the spirit of the TCA provisions around schemes, and I think that could be very much tightened up.

Broadly, the Bill does a good job. It will help the regime to mature and become more effective, but it must be recognised in huge part that it puts in place a framework to achieve a whole load of things that have not yet been decided. There is talk of streamlined subsidy schemes, referrals to the CMA and so on, but the Bill does not say what will be in a streamlined subsidy scheme or what will be the subject of a referral, so all those details will come in the future. I absolutely applaud the creation of the framework to be able to implement a streamlined subsidy scheme. What will matter—the proof of the pudding—will be what is actually within that scheme in due course.

A final point: a lot of people have mistaken the detail of the Subsidy Control Bill and the subsidy control framework regarding their effectiveness for remedying, levelling up, or whatever might be the question of the day. The Bill does not set the division of funding to different places and activities, which is a fundamental part of the redistribution of wealth. A lot of misconceptions suggest that the Bill should achieve all that, but the fundamental point of how the cash is carved up and distributed is not necessarily a question for subsidy control law.

Richard Warren: Just to go back to the question about problems that might arise with a light-touch approach, from our perspective the difficulties we have had with the system that we are replacing—the European system that we removed ourselves from—have been on the more prescriptive side. When we have asked the Government to introduce x, y and z, the response has often been, “The EU doesn’t say you can do it, so we assume you can’t.”

Other Governments have taken a different approach. When we proposed to the Government that they should provide an exemption from the cost of the capacity market within electricity pricing, BEIS said that as EU state aid law did not provide explicit rules on that, it could not introduce an exemption. The Polish Government took a different approach, saying, “We’ll come up with one and introduce it.” The more prescriptive approach in the EU has been limiting, certainly as the UK Government approached it, so we feel that we will be more empowered as industry to bring forward proposals with greater confidence that they will be within the UK scheme for subsidy control because, as I said in response to a previous question, everything is allowed apart from what is explicitly not allowed, so we will be in a stronger position to be confident of saying, “Actually, this is allowed by UK subsidy control rules.”

My final point is that the biggest barrier has probably been the UK’s culture of not using the power. Time and again, the reason why we cannot do x, y and z that has been given by either Ministers or officials is that the state aid rules will not allow it. We have often taken a different view, but that excuse has been an almost permanent barrier to doing things. The new regime might reveal whether the excuse has been something to hide behind, or if there is a general culture of preferring not to use state aid rules or subsidy. That is probably a more important point for the steel sector than the Bill, which broadly provides the right framework—we have no major concerns about it.

Let me briefly touch on the regional point that Jonathan made. It is valid, in that the new system opens up a huge amount of flexibility for regional development. Historically, the UK has not done a huge amount of regional development. If we look at the split of what we have spent in the past few years, barely anything has been spent by the UK on regional development in terms of state aid. The system gives us an awful lot of flexibility to redefine which areas we want to give regional development to.

Under the EU system, the map of which areas of the UK were considered to be category A was pretty limiting. One of them happens to be where Port Talbot is based, but it has been a slightly moot point because it has not received a lot of regional aid anyway. The point is: the Government can redesign it, and that will be a key element if they are to use their new subsidy control regime to the maximum flexibility to pursue their levelling-up agenda.

[The Chair]

Before I bring in Simon Baynes, may I remind panellists that five more Members wish to ask questions? Could we keep the answers succinct, please?

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[Robin Millar]

Q A final question, because I am really trying to get to the bottom of this point: would you be happier if the UK Government told you what to do?

Ivan McKee: No, I would be happier if there were clear rules for everybody across the UK that had been agreed with all parts of the UK, so that everybody knew exactly what that level playing field was, everybody knew what the rules were in advance, and there was a process for clarification before you took very important decisions about subsidies and economic development for very good reasons: to support businesses, industries, communities and parts of Scotland. I would be happy if we knew in advance that those things were clear and allowable, and if the Bill respected the powers of the devolved Administrations with respect to the devolution settlement.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Thank you, Ivan, for coming along this afternoon. There are a couple of points that I wish to make, if I may. First, we heard this morning from Dr Pazos-Vidal, who said that the Bill is not reflective of the territorial constitution of the UK as it stands. This afternoon, we heard some comments from George Peretz QC that alluded to the wider discussion about the fact that BEIS could ultimately seek to invest in projects, be they in Wales, England, or indeed Scotland, and that those projects could have a consequence upon the devolution settlement—they could be at odds with the intentions of the Scottish Government. Do you believe there is an issue there, given the fact that, ultimately, it will be only BEIS that has the ability to refer such matters to the CMA? Do you believe that the Scottish Government, along with the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly, should have the ability to refer such matters, should they feel that those matters impinge upon devolution and they want to challenge the situation as it stands?

Secondly, I would be grateful if you could expand upon your concerns in relation to agriculture, because I know it has been spoken about at length.

Ivan McKee: With regard to your first point, yes, of course that is a concern. It is lopsided, it is asymmetrical and it gives BEIS powers in devolved areas that it does not give to the devolved Administrations. Those are, to say the least, problematic with regards to devolved Administrations operating in areas of devolved competency. That is clearly of significant concern. I did not hear all the earlier evidence—I dipped in and out of some parts—but I am aware that those comments you referred to were made, and that does support the view that we have. It is not just ourselves: the Welsh Government and, I believe, the Northern Ireland Executive also have concerns regarding the powers that the Bill gives to the Secretary of State in devolved areas that are not reflected with equivalent powers for Scottish Government Ministers.

With regards to agriculture, our concern is that income support mechanisms for agriculture that would have been outside the scope of an EU subsidy control regime are inside the scope of the Bill, which raises concerns about the extent to which we can apply such income support mechanisms within the agriculture sector in Scotland, and of course elsewhere. That is a concern for us: we believe that agriculture should be excluded from the Bill, and I understand that an amendment could be coming forward with that objective in mind.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Thank you for that, Ivan. Another question, if I may, Chair. On that income support for the agricultural sector, in the discussions—as you understand them—between Scottish Government officials and, indeed, officials from other devolved nations and the UK Government, has there been any indication that there would be a situation that arises where the UK Government would be cognisant of the concerns that the devolved nations have, and would seek to acquiesce to your request that agriculture be not included within the scope of this regime?

Ivan McKee: The proof of the pudding will be if an amendment comes forward in that regard and is accepted. We have not had confirmation that such an amendment would be accepted, so we will see where that goes. In answer to your question, we have not had confirmation from the UK Government that they would accept the exclusion of agriculture from the Bill at this point in time.

[Paul Scully]

Hi, Ivan. Good to see you.

Ivan McKee: Hi, Paul.