Subsidy Control Bill (Sixth sitting)

Kirsty Blackman Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:

Amendment 19, in clause 34, page 18, line 12, leave out “may, in particular,” and insert “must”.

This amendment seeks to ensure the Secretary of State will include all these measures in the regulations.

Amendment 41, in clause 34, page 18, line 12, leave out from “The” to “particular,” and insert “Regulations made under subsection (1) must”.

This amendment makes it a requirement for subsidies entered into the database to include the information set out in paragraphs (a) to (i) of subsection (2).

Amendment 20, in clause 34, page 18, line 27, at end insert—

“(j) any other matter which the Secretary of State deems necessary”.

This amendment is linked to amendment 19.

Amendment 21, in clause 34, page 18, line 27, at end insert—

“(j) the purpose of the subsidy”.

This amendment would allow the Secretary of State to include a requirement in regulations that a public authority’s entry in the database details the purpose of the subsidy.

Amendment 43, in clause 34, page 18, line 27, at end insert—

“(j) the date the subsidy or scheme was entered onto the database.”

This amendment requires the date on which the subsidy or scheme was entered onto the database, to be included in entries on the database.

Amendment 42, in clause 34, page 18, line 34, at end insert—

“(3A) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about further information that must be included in a public authority’s entry in the subsidy database in relation to a subsidy or subsidy scheme.”

This amendment allows the Secretary of State to make regulations setting out further information required to be published on the subsidy database.

Amendment 44, in clause 34, page 18, line 34, at end insert—

“(d) the date the public authority confirms the decision to give each subsidy under the scheme;

(e) the duration of each subsidy under the scheme;

(f) any time limits or other conditions attached to the use of each subsidy under the scheme;

(g) the amount of each subsidy or the amount budgeted for each subsidy under the scheme;

(h) the date each subsidy under the scheme was published.”

This amendment requires that the information required to be entered into the subsidy database for subsidy schemes includes much of the same information required for subsidies.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Thank you for chairing the Committee, Ms Nokes. I came back thinking that I had notes, but I have just written two sentences on a bit of paper. Hopefully I will not ramble too much. I want to speak to amendment 19 and amendment 20, which is linked to amendment 19, and amendment 21. I think that is all, but I will speak to other amendments as we come to them.

The logic behind amendment 19 is, unsurprisingly, to try to give us a bit more certainty about what the Secretary of State will require to be included in the subsidy database. It changes “may, in particular” to “must” in subsection (2), to give us certainty that those things will definitely be included. That strengthens the clause and makes it clearer. Amendments 20 and 21 allow the Secretary of State to include anything else that they think is necessary, because if “may” is strengthened to “must”, we need to allow the Secretary of State to have a bit more flexibility to include anything else not listed.

Amendment 21 is about the purpose of the subsidy. We are concerned, having looked at the entry requirements for local authorities—sorry, I mean public authorities; I spent far too many years as a local authority councillor. This amendment has been included because I am not convinced that paragraph (b) on the policy objective of the subsidy scheme adequately covers what we would like to have in that database. People who put things in the subsidy control database need to say why they are giving the subsidy to the organisation. That is important not just for setting the policy objective, particularly in subsidy schemes, but for knowing the point of that individual subsidy—why it is given to that organisation. It will be very helpful if the Minister outlines whether he thinks additional things may be added to this list by the Secretary of State. I hope he can be clear with the Committee that this is not necessarily a prescriptive list and the Secretary of State may include other things in it. I am assuming that is why the language was chosen at the beginning of subsection (2), but if the Minister could state that, it would be helpful for us to understand.

We have discussed at some length the importance of the subsidy control database, and the fact that it is the only way enterprises or public authorities will be able to find out about subsidies that have been made that may distort competition. I agree with the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston, that it is very important that we get this right, and that we have as much information as possible, so that people can make pre-action requests and challenge a subsidy.

The subsidy control database is not a tick-box exercise, and I hope that subsidy control is not a tick-box exercise; subsidy control is necessary, and not just so that we can meet our international obligations. Presumably, the Government think that it is a good thing. It is good that we have regulations around subsidies; that is very important. If subsidy control is not to be a tick-box exercise enabling us to meet our obligations, and if we are not saying, “We’re just going to do the bare minimum,” it is key that the Government give some thought to the amendments tabled by Labour and the SNP, and consider whether it is important to strengthen the data on the subsidy control database, as well as the ability to search it and timelines, which we have talked about.

Amendment 21 would require the purpose of the subsidy to be put on the database. That is missing from the list in clause 34. It would be useful for organisations and public authorities to have information on why the subsidy was given. If the Minister believes that

“the policy objective of the subsidy or scheme”

adequately covers the purpose of the subsidy, it would be helpful if he could state that, and say that the Government will request authorities to include the purpose of the subsidy. That would give us comfort about the information that will be on the subsidy control website.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

It is, as ever, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. I thank hon. Members for their interest in clause 34 and the amendments to it. As we have heard, the clause concerns the technicalities of how we will require public authorities to upload details of subsidies to the database, and allows the Secretary of State to make regulations setting up the information requirements of the database. The regulations will be technical in nature, and Parliament will have the opportunity to review them through the negative procedure.

We have thought really carefully about this, and I would like briefly to take the Committee through our rationale for taking the power. The definitions, rules and processes at the core of the proposed new regime are set out in the Bill. Further technical detail and specificity will be needed on the exact transparency requirements. Our new regime needs to be responsive to market and technological changes and to reflect future trade deals and international obligations. It is also important that it can respond to unforeseen events and developments. We need to be able to act quickly, when necessary, to events such as financial crises, covid-19, and changes in world markets and the global capacity for the production of particular materials.

The list of information that must be uploaded on the database relates to the technical, administrative reporting requirements placed on public authorities, rather than the substantive subsidy control requirements that determine which subsidies are given. For these reasons—the need to change at pace, and the fact that these are simply reporting requirements, not rules about when subsidies can be given—we have provided for the Secretary of State to have the power to make these requirements by regulation, rather than putting them in the Bill.

We share the desire to be as transparent as possible. This is a crucial part of the regime, not a tick-box exercise; I assure the hon. Member for Aberdeen North that we take it very seriously. In order to give Parliament further information about what kind of information may be provided, subsections (2) and (3) provide illustrative lists.

Amendments 19, 20, 41 and 42 concern similar matters, so I will address them together. As I have said, the Government’s intention in providing the list of requirements in subsections (2) and (3) is to illustrate the kind of information requirements that may be included in the regulations. Those regulations are not yet prepared. More work is required to gather evidence and scope out the most appropriate way of setting out the database upload requirements in legislation. These requirements need to be clear and operationally viable, and must ensure appropriate transparency and value for those interested in subsidy award data.

Our intention is to make the regulations as straightforward and concise as possible and to avoid duplication. The amendments would mean that the Secretary of State must include in the regulations all the fields listed in clause 34(2).

Amendment 41 also covers the list in subsection (3)—the lists would no longer be illustrative but would be a minimum that could be added to. The regulations would be required to include information that, on the basis of the information gathered before drafting the regulations, might be surplus to requirements. We want to ensure that the exhaustive work is done beforehand, because we have tried to avoid creating additional, unnecessary reporting requirements for public authorities in the UK’s new subsidy control regime while still being as transparent as possible. Before setting out the requirements, the Government will carry out full analysis to ensure that data fields are useful and appropriate.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Can the Minister give me some comfort that public authorities updating the database and those searching the database will be involved in the consultation, and that the majority of the decisions taken by the Government are likely to be led by consultation responses, rather than if the consultation comes back and states, “We absolutely want paragraph (f); that absolutely has to be there” the Government would be unlikely to decide not to have paragraph (f)?

[Paul Scully]

We will engage with all those bodies—with the public authorities that will have to do the reporting; with the recipients of subsidies; and with people interested in subsidy data and transparency. We have already started that engagement, and it will continue because it is important that the database is as useful as possible and is balanced by a proportionate approach so that we do not duplicate effort. None the less, these will all be taken into account as we gather the evidence.

The data required for the database needs to be available to public authorities without creating large administrative burdens, either on those authorities or on subsidy recipients. It needs to be data that is relevant to all subsidies and schemes, or to be clear in which circumstances it is required, and where it is not. It needs to be presented so that those viewing it can easily access the data available and seek out the information they need. 

In addition to getting this right for commencement of the new regime, it is important to remember, as I mentioned earlier, that the requirements may need to change over time. For these reasons, I believe it is right that the lists in subsections (2) and (3) remain illustrative—that is to say, the regulations should not be required to include all types of information listed. The ability to tailor the regulations in future is essential for ensuring that the database does what it needs to do and can allow for different requirements for different types of subsidy. 

Amendments 21, 43 and 44 seek to add further categories of information to the illustrative lists. As I have already set out, these lists should be considered illustrative of the technical requirements that the Government expect to bring forward in secondary legislation. As such, any additions are unnecessary.  

The illustrative list provided clearly demonstrates that the regulations are intended to cover the information for interested parties to understand the key facts about a subsidy or subsidy scheme, and whether it is likely to harm their interests.

Amendment 40, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston, would make it compulsory for the Secretary of State to make regulations under this power. I assure members of the Committee that the Government intend to bring forward these regulations before the commencement of the subsidy control regime. However, I do not believe it is appropriate to consider these regulations essential to the operation of the new subsidy control regime as set out in the Bill, because the regulations are essentially technical.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The Minister says that the Government intend to bring forward the regulations before the subsidy regime starts. Can he give us an assurance that it will be not a few days before but long enough for public authorities to understand their obligations and include the correct data?

[Paul Scully]

I can reassure the hon. Lady on two things. First, we want to ensure that we develop this with public authorities—that we engage with them so that they are part of the process. They will be reporting, so we want them to understand what they have to do.

Secondly, as I said in answer to the hon. Lady during a previous sitting, we want to do this in good time and ensure that public authorities, beneficiaries and everyone involved have time to digest it. That is very much the aim ahead of commencement.

The regulations are essentially technical in character and do not fundamentally change the substantive subsidy control requirements. The current practice clearly demonstrates that there is no need to have such specific requirements in force for the database to be operational as it is already up and running, although we can and will improve it.

I therefore request that the amendment be withdrawn.

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Division 9

Ayes: 5

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Labour: 4
Scottish National Party: 1

Noes: 9

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Conservative: 9

[Kirsty Blackman]

I beg to move amendment 22, in clause 34, page 18, line 35, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

“(4) Regulations to be made under this section for the first time are subject to the affirmative procedure. (5) Any subsequent regulations made under this section are subject to the negative procedure.”

This amendment would have the regulations be considered under the affirmative procedure, in the first instance, and the negative procedure for any future tweaks.

I like to think I am not an unreasonable person. We have debated at some length what needs to be on the subsidy control database, and it was also discussed during our evidence sessions. It is fundamental to the operation of the scheme that the subsidy control database is fit for purpose and that the information that is available on it is agreed in consultation with the public authorities and the enterprises that it will affect. That relates both to what goes on to the database and to the ability to challenge anything that is happening.

When the regulations are first made, there is likely to be some disagreement. We have had plenty of disagreement already about whether a provision should say “may” or “must” and members of the Committee have brought up good points that Ministers may not have heard before. The Minister’s characterisation of some of the consultation responses has been slightly challenged by the shadow Minister on the ground that some of those responses were not as clear as the Minister suggested. For that reason, when we consider for the first time the information to be included on the subsidy control database, it is important that we do so by the affirmative procedure. Any subsequent changes can be done by the negative procedure.

As the Minister has said, this is a framework Bill, but we have not seen this part of the framework. If the scheme is to work, we need to see what it will involve. The Minister said that this section was specifically about what was included on the database and not about the regulation of subsidy because there are rules on whether or not they are awarded. He is right about that, but we will not be able to understand whether subsidies are being given unless they are on the database. We simply will not know whether they exist. The only burden on public authorities is to provide a letter to the business; it does not involve any level of check or anything that enables us to scrutinise what has happened. The affirmative procedure, in the first instance, would be the best way forward, with the negative procedure for future iterations—tweaks to ensure it is operating correctly.

[Paul Scully]

Amendment 22 concerns the procedure by which the Secretary of State can make regulations to set out the information that public authorities must upload to the transparency database.  

As we have discussed in the context of other amendments, these regulations are highly technical. They do not change the substantive subsidy control requirements or the basis on which subsidies can be given. They are also not necessary for the database to function—as demonstrated by the fact that it is already operational. 

The negative procedure is most appropriate for a technical issue such as this.  As I mentioned this morning, the Bill proposes the right parliamentary procedure for different types of secondary legislation. I mentioned the powers to amend the exemption thresholds in clause 42(1) being subject to the affirmative procedure because they affect the substantive subsidy control requirements rather than the thresholds or entries on the database that we are discussing.

The regulations will be drafted and published in good time to ensure that public authorities understand what the regulations will require of them.  I therefore request that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I thank the Minister for his statement. It will be interesting to see whether the regulations come forward in the negative or the affirmative.

I do not intend to press the amendment to a vote. I say simply that, although the website is operational, it is not very functional. The Minister has admitted that it has shortcomings, a number of which would have been sorted if the intention of the regulations had been made clearer in the Bill or if they would be discussed under the affirmative procedure.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Paul Scully]

The clause gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations that stipulate what information must be provided by a public authority with respect to a subsidy scheme or subsidy award when it is recorded on the subsidy database.

The regulations will be subject to the negative procedure.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Subsection 2(g) of the clause mentions

“the amount of the subsidy or scheme or the amount budgeted for the subsidy or scheme.”

That directly contradicts what the Minister said in relation to tax measures. He said that tax measures could not be put on to the database in advance of knowing exactly how much the tax measures would be. I suggested that it would be possible to include the budgeted amount on the website. The Minister said that would not be possible—it would be important to have the final amount. This specifically states that in regulations the Government might ask for the budgeted amount—particularly for tax measures, where there is such a long time before a public authority has to upload the information, during which a business might, because of the distortive effects of the subsidy, be in serious financial difficulties and go under. It is bizarre that the argument that the Minister made is directly contradicted by subsection 2(g). It would be helpful to know why the provision is in the Bill if the Government would not even consider using it—which is what he suggested earlier.

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[Paul Scully]

To answer the question from the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston, the criteria used to determine how the figures are arrived at are part of the purpose of the subsidy, which is why that information is in the Bill, but guidance will also be provided, as will regulations on gross cash equivalents.

On the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, that, effectively, is why this is an illustrative list. Budgeted amounts can vary significantly from the final subsidy, so it might not be appropriate for them to be used in all cases, including for tax. None the less, we want to work out these issues on an evidence-led basis, having engaged with the public authorities to see how the database will work in practice. It is important we work with the public authorities to come up with the guidance and final regulations in plenty of time before commencement.

[Kirsty Blackman]

It would be very helpful if when the consultation is carried out the Government were to ask enterprises whether they would prefer to see the data earlier, or the final figure. I think the Government have got it wrong on this one.

[Paul Scully]

As I said, we will engage with enterprises and public authorities, as well as academic and legal experts, to make sure we get the balance right. We think we have a balanced and proportionate response, but that will be developed in plenty of time before commencement.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 34 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 35

Introductory

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

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[Paul Scully]

The exemption allows public authorities to award low-value subsidies of up to £315,000 over three years with maximum flexibility and minimal administrative burden. Subsidies given through the minimal financial assistance exemption are very unlikely to have any appreciable distortive impact on international trade and investment, or UK competition and investment, so it is appropriate to exempt them from the substantive requirements of the regime, subject to the value threshold set out in the clause and the relevant procedural requirements set out in clause 37.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I continue to believe that subsection (2) of the clause is meaningless and unpoliceable because of the way that the subsidy control database is being put together. I would very much like it if the Minister would, either now or at some future point, in writing preferably, let us know how the Government intend to ensure that public authorities are able to find out whether an organisation has had a subsidy before, what its value was, and whether the subsidy that it will potentially award to that organisation will push it over the £315,000 limit.

There is no point in the clause if there is no way in which it can work because of the Government’s decisions on how the database is run. I am very pleased that a public authority will have to write a letter to an organisation to say, “We’re giving you a subsidy under the minimal financial assistance scheme,” but that does not go far enough. It may be helpful if it had to write a letter to all granting authorities, because then they would all be aware of the subsidy that had been given, and they could take decisions. This is an unfair and not sensible burden to put on granting authorities, because there is no way that they can ensure that they are abiding by the law, or get the transparency data to prove that they have done so.

[Seema Malhotra]

We will not support clause stand part. My contribution will build on the arguments made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North. We debated amendment 33, which I think went part way to covering some of our concerns, but our concerns are broader, in questioning the exemptions from some of the control requirements.

The clause outlines subsidies that are exempt from the subsidy control principles, stating that the principles do not apply to subsidies worth less than £315,000 to one enterprise over three years. We believe that subsidy control principles exist for a reason; we are having these debates and setting up this regime for a reason. Subsidies should help to pursue a specific policy objective. They should be proportionate. They should encourage certain behaviours. They should not fund unnecessary costs. They should not be distortive or cause overwhelmingly negative effects. They should not affect competition and investment within the UK. Those principles should stand regardless of the size of the subsidy.

A subsidy being smaller does not mean that it cannot be disproportionate or bring about negative effects. All subsidies have the power potentially to harm the economy. They should be transparent and subject to scrutiny and the potential for challenge, and therefore all should be required to be in line with the subsidy control principles. I have not heard anything from the Minister, although he may yet persuade me otherwise, about why the clause is needed and why the Bill cannot require all subsidies to be transparent and in line with the subsidy control principles—it is the Subsidy Control Bill.

[Paul Scully]

Clause 37, as we will discuss in a second, states that the public authority has to confirm with the enterprise that the subsidy is still below the threshold. That is the right balance for a proper process to confirm that the threshold is respected without applying disproportionate burdens of oversight for small subsidies that are unlikely to be distortive in any way. Although the regime is light touch, it still imposes some obligations, and it is not proportionate to impose them on very small subsidies that are unlikely to have an impact on trade and competition. For that reason, we feel that the balance is right between the transparency required to make sure that the subsidies are made and reported, and that we can understand the effect and distortion they may have, and the administrative burden that will be put on public authorities and those smaller businesses.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I appreciate the case that the shadow Minister made. I am not entirely convinced at this point; I need to think about it a bit more. I will therefore abstain if clause stand part is pushed to a vote, but I reserve the right to change my mind on Report.

[Seema Malhotra]

We wish to push clause stand part to a vote.

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[Paul Scully]

It works both ways. If I were an enterprise receiving a subsidy, such as minimum financial assistance, I would want to make sure that I was doing my own due diligence, and public authorities do. Any businessman would know that there are legal implications and legal requirements of running a business. It should be the case that it works both ways.

There are interlocking elements within the framework that ensure that both public authorities and enterprises are doing their own due diligence. The procedural requirements will make sure that enterprises receive subsidies only through the MFA exemption when they are genuinely entitled to do so, while still minimising the administrative burden associated with awarding a subsidy. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I have a few questions about the clause. It would be helpful if the Minister could lay out what he expects the timeline to be for these requirements. The minimal financial assistance notification has to be given in advance of the subsidy being awarded. It is an intention letter that says the body intends to give the subsidy. Presumably that has to happen at any point in advance of the actual cash changing hands or the tax measure taking place.

My second question is about the minimal financial assistance confirmation, which is the written statement confirming that the subsidy has been given, the date it has been given and the gross value of the assistance. The Minister made clear earlier in the debate that it could be up to a year, or even longer, before an enterprise actually knows what the gross value of that assistance is if it is a tax measure. Are the bodies expected to give the confirmation as soon as they give the subsidy, or are they expected to give the confirmation as soon as they know the exact amount, particularly for tax measures? The provision does not seem to add up with the details we were given on the subsidy control database.

The other questions I have are about what “written” means. If a public authority emails these details to an organisation, does that count as written? Clause 37 says that

“the enterprise must keep a written record”.

Does it have to keep these details on a piece of paper in a filing cabinet, or can it be kept in an electronic form? What if the enterprise does not have much in the way of offices? What if it operates largely online? We have seen many enterprises move towards online working. Is an electronic version acceptable? Would the enterprise be fulfilling its duties by keeping an electronic record, or do we need that bit of paper, hanging about somewhere in someone’s house or office or wherever?

If the Minister cannot give exact answers to my specific questions, it would be handy if he could supply the answers at a later date—

[Paul Scully]

In writing?

[Kirsty Blackman]

In writing would be absolutely fine—if that is by email, I am happy to receive it electronically. It would be helpful if the Minister could write to us to confirm what “written” means. For people to be able to meet their obligations, he will probably have to make some sort of statement about what the Government intend, either today or at a later stage.

[Seema Malhotra]

It is a pleasure to speak to clause stand part. The Minister could have saved himself a whole debate had he supported our arguments on clause 36, because this clause sets out the procedural requirements attached to subsidies given under the clause 36 exemption.

The clause outlines how public authorities must provide the intended recipient with a notification, stating that they cannot award a subsidy until they have received confirmation from the intended recipient in a number of areas, including that the relevant threshold will not be breached. There are a whole set of debates to be had about what is considered a subsidy and what is not—we have had that on other aspects of the Bill—and about the lack of full clarity on the interface with the freeports policy or on taxation and subsidies. Clear guidance will be needed for interpretation by the enterprise of what it needs to consider when answering the question under subsection (2)(c). I hope that the Minister will set out in his remarks how he intends that to happen, to give surety to the enterprise and to the public authority.

As I said, Labour does not support clause 36. In my view, we have not heard a convincing case for such exemptions, which seem to be beyond what is needed. Our starting principle must be and must remain transparency. Confidence in this regime is all about transparency, to ensure that there is no cronyism or potential fraud. Once we have set up an agile, simple and robust system, which it is surely not beyond our wit to do, it should be straightforward to provide that information.

The Minister said earlier that the MFA notification would not need to be published. Will he clarify whether that is still the intention if an MFA notification goes to an enterprise? Local authorities and public authorities can simply publish on their websites, for example, when they have given some form of notification. That is a common thing to do, and publishing on a website what has been given to an enterprise does not in my view involve any issue of commercial confidentiality or of not being in the public interest; it would simply be transparent.

If we do not win the argument about changing the detail of the regime, there might be a middle way: at least the notifications ought to be published. Will the Minister tell us whether that has been given consideration and, if so, what the conclusion was and why? If it has not been given consideration, perhaps he will take it away and we can look at it as part of ongoing discussions with local authorities and other public authorities on other areas in the Bill, particularly clauses 32, 33 and 34.

Given that clause 36 remains part of the Bill, however, we recognise that the regulations listed under clause 37 will be necessary to bring some procedure to minimal financial assistance. We will therefore not vote against clause stand part.

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[Paul Scully]

It is something that we will continue engaging with local authorities and public authorities on. For local authorities, there are already other spending databases, so subsidies over £500 will already appear on those databases. Again, we will work through that kind of engagement as we come on to the guidance.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The Minister said that the letters are allowed to be sent by electronic means. Can I clarify that the written records kept by enterprises are also allowed to be electronic?

[Paul Scully]

I believe that is the legal definition of what “written” means and therefore how those records are kept, but if it is not, I will clarify that later.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 37 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 38

Services of public economic interest assistance

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

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[Paul Scully]

The devolved Administrations remain one of the key areas—perhaps the key area—where the subsidies will be given. We are not substantively changing the spending powers of the devolved Administrations, or indeed of any public authority.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The Minister specifically mentioned agricultural subsidies. Agriculture is devolved to the Scottish Parliament—it is a Scottish parliamentary competency—but he is suggesting that if Westminster intervenes in a devolved competency it is okay for it to not even run it by the Scottish Parliament in any formal way.

[Paul Scully]

We have not committed to changing the agricultural threshold. We intend to analyse carefully the full implications of lowering the threshold before making any final decision. Why would we want to do that? Because it may be desirable to effectively manage UK competition and investment as a whole. However, this was one area in which our analysis showed that there was no one single response to the consultation. I come back to the point that we will continue to engage closely with the devolved Administrations, as with all public authorities.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I disagree with the comments of the hon. Member for Aberavon. Clearly, I think that Scotland should be able to make its own decisions and have its own regime. In fact, I think it should be part of the EU and under the state aid regime, which has worked particularly well in an awful lot of areas.

I do not think that the amendment goes far enough. I am happy to support it if it is pushed to a vote, but I would have gone further in making sure that the Scottish Government, Scottish Ministers, the Welsh Senedd and Northern Irish Departments had even more of a say than that proposed by the amendment. If the amendment is pushed to a vote, I will support it on the basis of it being the minimum that I would expect, but I would prefer it to be even stronger.

[The Chair]

Perhaps we could have some clarity as to whether the amendment is to be withdrawn or pushed to a vote.

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[Bill Esterson]

I beg to move amendment 46, in clause 43, page 25, line 16, at end insert—

“(3A) The Scottish Ministers, the Welsh Ministers, and a Northern Ireland department may request the Secretary of State to declare a natural disaster or another exceptional circumstance in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

(3B) If the Secretary of State refuses a request made under section (3A), he must make a statement in the House of Commons outlining the reasons for his refusal.”

This amendment allows the devolved administrations to ask the Secretary of State to declare a natural disaster or exceptional circumstances, so that the exemptions listed in Clause 43(1) applying to Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland may apply. If the Secretary of State refuses a request for exemption, this amendment requires him to make a statement to the House of Commons.

Amendment 46 allows the devolved Administrations to ask the Secretary of State to declare a natural disaster or exceptional circumstances so that exemptions listed in clause 43(1) applying to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland may apply. If the Secretary of State refuses a request for exemption, the amendment requires them to make a statement to the House of Commons. To reiterate the point I made in the last debate, we are determined to ensure that the role for the devolved Administrations in the administration of their own nations is respected and considered. Of course, we agree that the subsidy regime sits with the Westminster Government, because it is a UK-wide system, but on matters as important as states of natural disaster, devolved Administrations should always be consulted.

Members will appreciate that natural disasters are not political by nature. A natural disaster does not discriminate who it targets and where it affects. By that logic, devolved Administrations, which are just as likely as anywhere else to experience natural disaster, should be granted powers to request that the Secretary of State declares a natural disaster or exceptional circumstance so that the exemptions listed in clause 43(1) may apply. We believe the amendment would respect the role of devolved Administrations in managing their response to disasters effectively, while still ensuring the Secretary of State has the final say.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The very nature of natural disasters is that they do not occur across the entirety of the UK in one go. Let us hope a natural disaster does not occur across the whole of the UK in one go! Generally, they are regionally specific; they will happen in a relatively confined geographical area. Whether it be flooding, an earthquake or something of that sort, not everywhere will be affected. Therefore, thinking about how this provision could apply, it makes a huge amount of sense for there to be an actual mechanism through which the devolved Administrations can request for the Secretary of State to declare a natural disaster. I would hope that the Secretary of State would be doing so anyway, and would recognise that a disaster in Wales—

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

Surely that is exactly the point. If a natural disaster has occurred, it is almost certain that the Secretary of State would declare a natural disaster. There is nothing that I can see preventing any devolved Administration within the United Kingdom from requesting that the Secretary of State does that in law anyway. I do not think this amendment is required at all.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The hon. Gentleman said that it is almost certain—probable, at least—that the Secretary of State would do so, but it is not certain. The amendment allows an actual mechanism for the devolved Administrations to make that request. It also makes it clear that if the Secretary of State refuses a request of this nature, they have to explain why. That is very important for transparency. This transparency issue is also important—

[Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)]

What would the logic would be if the situation were reversed, so that the UK Government wished to declare a natural emergency, but the devolved Administration did not? Has the hon. Member given that any thought?

[Kirsty Blackman]

That is nothing to do with the subject of this amendment, which is specifically about the devolved Administrations being able to ask. If the Secretary of State wishes to declare a natural disaster, and Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland does not want them to declare it, there is no mechanism for that—we do not have the powers to do that.

On the issue that was raised by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, it is important that the devolved Administrations have this mechanism because, as has been stated earlier, trust is at an all-time low. We have been very clear that some of the relationships between the devolved Administrations and the UK Government are not in a particularly good place right now. Building this provision in means that there is an additional safeguard in place, so that those places that know their areas best and know the effect on those areas better than Westminster does, because they are closer, are able to make that request.

[Paul Scully]

Natural disasters such as floods, fires and other exceptional circumstances can arise that require subsidies to be given at pace, to compensate for the damages caused. The clause allows the Secretary of State to publish a notice to declare that exemptions from the subsidy control requirements apply in respect of a natural disaster or other exceptional occurrence. That will allow public authorities to give subsidies that compensate for the damage in a timely manner.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North is right that not all such emergencies would apply across the whole of the United Kingdom. In many cases, the natural disaster in question would be localised to a specific place or region. Although it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State to declare that the exemption applies, subsidies using the exemption may be given by different public authorities, such as UK Government Departments, local authorities, agencies and, of course, the devolved Administrations. Public authorities are empowered to design subsidies in the most appropriate way to address the damage caused for their specific local needs. The Secretary of State does not need to approve the subsidies given under the exemption, once the natural disaster or other exceptional occurrence has been declared. The existing processes in the Bill already ensure that this type of subsidy can be given across the UK, by the devolved Administrations or other devolved authorities.

If a natural disaster or other exceptional circumstance occurred within the area of any of the devolved Administrations, it would of course be open to that Administration to request that the Secretary of State trigger the exemption, if the Secretary of State has not already done so. If the conditions for the exemption were fulfilled, the Secretary of State could then seek to publish a notice as soon as possible.

The clause is limited to very narrow circumstances to avoid creating an over-broad exemption to the domestic subsidy control regime that could damage UK competition and investment, and our ability to fulfil our international obligations. It is therefore appropriate that the Secretary of State has sole responsibility for determining when the criteria for triggering the exemption have been met. The Secretary of State must publish and lay in Parliament a notice to trigger the use of the exemption. That will ensure that the Secretary of State exercises the power in a transparent and accountable way. I request that the hon. Member for Sefton Central withdraws the amendment.

[Paul Scully]

Clause 43 enables public authorities to award subsidies to compensate for the damage caused by a specified natural disaster or other exceptional occurrence without having to apply the majority of the subsidy control requirements. The subsidies awarded under the clause would be exempt from the principles, prohibitions and requirements, but the transparency requirements would still apply. Before the exemption can be used, the Secretary of State must publish a notice declaring that a natural disaster or other exceptional occurrence has happened and that this exemption applies, and that notice must be laid in Parliament.

[Kirsty Blackman]

It would be useful to know where the notice is likely to be published. Will the Minister commit to considering whether the notice could be on the subsidy control database in some way? Perhaps on the database people could see a wee link that says, “This is where natural disasters have been declared”—hopefully it will not happen very often. If would be helpful if people could see all that information.

[Paul Scully]

Clearly, the notice has to be laid in Parliament, and I hope that I explained in my letter to the hon. Member exactly what that means. Clearly, we will also publish that on the gov.uk website and in other areas. I have forgotten the second part of her question.

[Kirsty Blackman]

It was about whether that information would be on the subsidy control database website.

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[Kirsty Blackman]

It would be useful to know how widely national security is defined. Are we talking about subsidies specifically relating to, for example, new military equipment, or to much more tangential things, such as for an organisation that provides server capacity for one of the security services? How tangential can something be in order to be covered by the clause? If the Minister cannot answer, I would be grateful for an answer at some point, in writing or through the method of interpretive dance, if that is what he prefers, because it would be helpful for us to understand this. This is a brief clause, but I am concerned that that definition could be drawn too widely. I just do not know because I do not have enough information.

[Bill Esterson]

The clause makes it clear that subsidies given to safeguard national security are not subject to the subsidy control regime. This is an important principle that must be interpreted without prejudice in the light of our international commitments; I am sure the Minister agrees with that. We are pleased to see it in the Bill.

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[Bill Esterson]

I beg to move amendment 47, in clause 48, page 27, line 6, at end insert—

“(2A) On the date on which the Act is passed, the Secretary of State must make a statement to the House of Commons regarding the applicability of Article 10 of the Northern Ireland Protocol to subsidies given and schemes made by public authorities in each part of the United Kingdom.”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to make a statement to the House of Commons regarding the applicability of Article 10 of the NI Protocol on the date on which the Act is passed.

The amendment would require the Secretary of State to make a statement to the House of Commons on the applicability of article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol on the date on which the Act is passed. Clause 48 provides that the requirements of the subsidy control regime do not apply to subsidy schemes that are subject to the Northern Ireland protocol. The Minister will suggest, I imagine, that this gives comfort to public authorities and avoids the double jeopardy of both regimes applying to a subsidy scheme—I take that from what he and the Secretary of State said on Second Reading.

If the Minister were to say that, he would be assuming that there is clarity on which subsidies and schemes are subject to the protocol. On this vital question that public authorities will need to interpret, there is no agreement between the UK Government and the European Commission. There is significant uncertainty about the extent of the reach back—that is, where EU state aid rules will continue to apply across the UK. Where a subsidy is applied in Wales, Scotland or England has consequences in Northern Ireland. George Peretz told us in last Tuesday’s evidence session,

“if I am advising a client such as a local authority or a subsidy recipient, my immediate problem is that I have to look at two sets of guidance—one issued by the European Commission and one by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy—that in some important respects tell me very different things.”—[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 46, Q64.]

His final assessment was:

“It is all a bit of a mess.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 48, Q67.]

We should all note that the European Union published proposals to address problems with the Northern Ireland protocol a fortnight ago. That is a step in the right direction, although the proposals it put forward do not address the state aid subsidy issue. In contrast, on Second Reading on 22 September, the Secretary of State suggested

“we have proposed the change to the Northern Ireland protocol to bring all subsidies within scope of the domestic regime.”—[Official Report, 22 September 2021; Vol. 701, c. 338.]

Here we are six weeks later, and we are no clearer about the status of the negotiations with the EU. I hope the Minister will set my mind at ease and tell us what the UK proposals are to solve the problem that George Peretz set out so well in evidence last week.

Let us remind ourselves: the Government negotiated the Northern Ireland protocol and signed it, so they now have a duty to make the protocol work, just as they have a duty to make Brexit work. It is no good threatening to rip up an agreement that the Prime Minister himself signed just two years ago, and certainly not without something to put in its place. Perhaps the Minister can confirm when he last discussed these issues with his European counterparts, and the timeline on which he expects there to be clarity on article 10 of the protocol and its impact on the Bill.

The purpose of the amendment is to require the Secretary of State to provide a statement on

“the applicability of Article 10 of the Northern Ireland Protocol to subsidies given and schemes made by public authorities in each part of the United Kingdom.”

Public authorities and recipients need and deserve certainty on this issue.

[Kirsty Blackman]

The hon. Member for Sefton Central used the quote I was going to use from the Secretary of State, who was really pretty clear that the new subsidy control regime that we are discussing is the one that will apply across the United Kingdom. That was the point the Secretary of State was making—that this is the only subsidy control regime that will apply across the United Kingdom. That seems pretty factually incorrect, not least for Northern Ireland but, as the Opposition Front Bench spokesperson pointed out, for other parts of the UK where that trade will end up going to the EU.

The very least the Government could do is to ensure that a formal statement is made, because if we are relying on what Government Ministers have said in the course of either debates in the House or statements, we do not know the answer. We have been told a number of different conflicting things. I get that this is a movable feast and that there is no final decision on exactly how it will work. That is why the amendment is so reasonable. It specifically says that the applicability statement will need to be made on

“the date on which the Act is passed”.

Presumably, by the date on which the Act is passed we will have some idea of which regimes will apply in Northern Ireland. We have spoken very little about Northern Ireland specifically during the course of this Committee but, when the Minister talks about giving certainty to enterprises and public authorities, it seems to me that Northern Ireland is in a unique position where there is no certainty at all. People literally do not know which regime will apply.

It is all well and good to say, “We will consult with people and ensure that they see the guidelines in advance of having to put them in the subsidy control database,” but the fundamental issue of which regime they are complying with has not yet been answered in a way that would stand up to any kind of scrutiny. The amendment is completely reasonable and, if the Minister does not want to accept it, he should be clear with us and with the organisations concerned, particularly in Northern Ireland, about how he and the Secretary of State will explain to them which regime they will be operating under.

[Paul Scully]

As we have heard, amendment 47 to clause 48 would require the Secretary of State to

“make a statement to the House of Commons regarding the applicability of Article 10 of the Northern Ireland Protocol to subsidies given and schemes made by public authorities in each part of the United Kingdom”,

on

“the date on which the Act is passed.”

Clause 48 excludes subsidies in the scope of article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol from the domestic subsidy control regime, which, as the hon. Member for Sefton Central says, is to avoid double regulation of subsidies. Subsidies that are subject to the protocol and comply with the EU state aid laws will be exempt from the requirements of the new domestic regime.

I should remind hon. Members that the Secretary of State is already required, as a statutory duty, to publish guidance on the practical application of article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol under section 48 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. BEIS published that guidance on 31 December 2020. That is intended to help public authorities reach a view on whether article 10 applies to subsidies granted in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, to which they must have regard.

The guidance is based on the EU Commission’s unilateral declaration of 18 December 2020, which made it clear that article 10 would apply in Great Britain if there was a genuine and direct link back to a company in Northern Ireland. That is most likely the case of a subsidised company in Great Britain with a subsidiary in Northern Ireland. The Command Paper on the Northern Ireland protocol published on 21 July 2021 set out the Government’s position that comprehensive and robust commitments are in place on subsidy control in the trade and co-operation agreement, and that those are being further strengthened through the UK’s Subsidy Control Bill, making the existing provisions in article 10 redundant in their current form.

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[Paul Scully]

I disagree. This framework, which is a bare-bones framework, as I have said, has to work with whatever is in the Northern Ireland protocol, whatever is negotiated. That is why, for the reasons I have said, I talked about the reach-back provisions, which are never perfect. We know that the Northern Ireland protocol is not perfect, but it is a negotiated view. That is why, in those intensive discussions, we are looking at delivering significant changes and trying to improve an imperfect situation.

[Kirsty Blackman]

If an enterprise in Northern Ireland is given a subsidy, and that enterprise has competition in or trades with both Scotland and Ireland, which regime does it need to comply with if it gets that subsidy? Does it need to comply with the state aid or subsidy control regime, or both?

[Paul Scully]

It would first depend on what it trades in, and then on what its service is, because those are dealt with in different ways. It would then depend on the framework of the company and what structure it has in GB and Northern Ireland, because it must have genuine reach-back to Northern Ireland to be able to apply to that.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I appreciate the Minister being so indulgent in giving way. Are there any circumstances in which an organisation—an enterprise that is given a subsidy or a public authority giving out a subsidy—will have to comply with both the subsidy control and state aid regimes?

[Paul Scully]

The regime has been specifically worked through so that there is no double jeopardy, as the hon. Member for Sefton Central described at the beginning. They have to deal with one or the other. Clearly, as I said, the one they would deal with depends on the framework of the company, the ownership of the company, and whether it deals in electricity or services, because different rules clearly apply. None the less, as the negotiated provision is constituted, they would only have to apply to apply to one or the other. If it is state aid, they do not then need to worry about domestic subsidy control, and vice versa. The Command Paper clearly stated that we believe that we can bring it under domestic subsidy control, although that is not being negotiated yet, so that is clearly not the situation at this moment in time.

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[Bill Esterson]

We gave the Government every opportunity with our amendment, but they chose to vote it down. They have left us with what my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon called a dereliction of duty, which is a good way of putting it. The clause does not do justice to businesses, awarding bodies, communities or our constituents. Those are good reasons why we should vote it down.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I have not had a chance to think about exactly how not having the clause as part of the Bill would affect the Bill as a whole. I share the concerns, that there are major issues with the clause, but at this point I will abstain on any vote.

[Bill Esterson]

I understand the hon. Lady’s concerns, but there is such a big problem with what is set out, it is right for us to register our objection by voting against the clause.

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[Paul Scully]

This clause establishes that subsidies and subsidy schemes for nuclear projects are not required to be assessed against the additional principles for energy and environmental subsidies that are set out in schedule 2.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I would just like to ask why.

[Bill Esterson]

I am interested in the answer to that question as well, given that in the last 11 years of Conservative Government we have not seen the investment in new nuclear that was needed to meet our climate obligations.