Blind and Partially Sighted People: Employment Support

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered employment support for blind and partially sighted people.

It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq. I am really pleased to have secured this debate on what I and others—judging by the number of Members here today—believe is an incredibly important issue. I thank the many organisations that provided briefings ahead of the debate.

In October, the all-party parliamentary group on eye health and visual impairment, which I chair, published its “Changing Attitudes, Changing Lives” report, which looked at employer attitudes towards blind and partially sighted people. I thank the secretariat—the Royal National Institute of Blind People and the Thomas Pocklington Trust—all those who responded to the written consultation, and especially those who shared their experiences at the oral evidence sessions, which I will discuss shortly.

We wanted to know why the number of blind and partially sighted people in employment is still stubbornly low at a time when there are about 900,000 job vacancies, despite the Equality Act 2010, a wealth of diversity and inclusion policies, and more than a decade of welfare-to-work programmes from various Governments. In November 2023, the APPG commissioned YouGov to carry out polling to look at employer attitudes. The findings were shocking, and prompted the APPG to launch its inquiry to look at the issue in more detail. To my knowledge, it is the first parliamentary inquiry to look solely at employer attitudes. We held a series of oral evidence sessions, put out a call for written evidence and held a number of one-to-one meetings with employers, including Apple and Channel 4. We heard from a range of employers, sight loss organisations and, most importantly, blind and partially sighted people themselves.

We found that 48% of employers said that they did not have accessible recruitment processes, so for many the online job application was not accessible, and in many cases it was not compatible with assistive technology. That obviously prevented many people living with sight loss from applying for those jobs in the first place. Some employers were not willing to make reasonable adjustments where possible, for example for psychometric testing, which is part of the recruitment process for many grad schemes, so many of those platforms were also inaccessible. Most worryingly, about a quarter of employers said that they would not be willing to make workplace adjustments or adaptations in order to employ blind and partially sighted people. The problem stems partly from a lack of awareness of where to access support or funding, or just advice and information, but there is also a pattern of outdated attitudes towards visually impaired people.

During the oral evidence sessions, we heard powerful testimony from many blind and partially sighted people. Many expressed a deep sense of frustration and anger at the job market because employers do not understand the importance of ensuring that their recruitment and interview processes are inclusive. Websites were not accessible, and application forms were not provided in alternative formats. Many respondents had to face the dilemma of whether to disclose their disability, or even ask for reasonable adjustments during the interview process.

I know that from my own experience. I have always been in the camp that chooses to declare their visual impairment at the start, but not everybody has the confidence to do that, based on their experiences. Others referred to the time it took to complete applications and said that their request for a reasonable adjustment of extra time had not been granted. One respondent reported that an interviewer seemed more focused on their blindness than their qualifications; they said that it felt as though the assessment of their ability to do the job was treated as a secondary factor, rather than the primary objective.

Although I am speaking a lot about the recruitment process—applications and interviews—many respondents shared their frustrations about being in work and acquiring their sight loss, or being in work and wanting additional aids or adaptations. I hope hon. Members do not mind my speaking from my own lived experience. Throughout my working life—I will not show my age by saying how long that has been—I have known the challenges that many have faced. I have been a Member of Parliament for seven and a half years, and to this day I still face challenges with technology, which cause a lot of stress and worry. There are days when I am not able to do my work as an MP because my IT kit is not working. Recently, I had to go further and lodge a formal complaint. I hope that by doing that I will finally be able to get all the kit I need to do my job and represent my constituents, just as my colleagues can.

Why do we need action and change? The employment rate for people living with sight loss is 42%, compared with 82% for non-disabled people. The disability pay gap is around 17%, which equates to us working unpaid for 54 days a year. The disability employment gap has remained at around 29% to 30% for more than a decade. I think that is hugely disrespectful. Actually, it is a disgrace. Employers are missing out on a wealth of talent. One of the respondents at our oral evidence session, who is quite senior in their workplace, said that they found that their visual impairment became less of a barrier the more senior they became. That is absolutely the right thing, but it should start at the entry level of any job.

We know that not getting the right support has a negative impact on health and wellbeing. There is clear evidence that good work improves health outcomes across people’s lives and protects them against social exclusion. Employment can bring not just better incomes but financial stability, security and a greater sense of purpose, which in turn can lead to healthier diets, increased exercise, higher living standards and, most importantly, better mental health outcomes.

Our report contains some excellent examples of best practice, and I will share a few. Roger told us that in his corporate workplace, screen-reader software and ergonomic equipment enabled him to perform his tasks efficiently, and that having a supportive team who understood his needs made him feel valued and included in his workplace. Another person told us that about a member of an interview panel who guided a visually impaired person through the process, taking them to the interview room and explaining its layout; then, as they sat down, the panel described themselves and gave information about who they were. Those are examples of small adjustments that can be made. They are not complicated or costly. As one respondent put it,

“It’s not just about providing the tools; it’s about creating a supportive environment where blind and partially sighted employees can thrive.”

Our “Changing Attitudes, Changing Lives” report makes a series of recommendations that aim to fix what we believe is a broken system. The key element is the need for a disability employment strategy that sets out measures to improve employer attitudes and increase the number of blind and partially sighted people finding and retaining work. Does my right hon. Friend the Minister agree that we need a clear strategy, and that this must be a watershed moment in how we improve employment opportunities and support?

Another recommendation is for the Government to partner with sight loss organisations to develop best practice on recruiting blind and partially sighted people and supporting them to enter work, as well as on supporting them in work. I hope that the Minister will agree to look at how he can do that. Other recommendations include reviewing the Equality Act to ensure that it is fit for the 21st century and our modern labour market. This is not just about the Government taking action; it is about employers taking action. We want them to take practical steps to ensure that their workplaces are inclusive, including by preparing documents and information in accessible formats. Naturally, we need to address the issues in the Government’s Access to Work scheme, including the delays and backlogs. When Access to Work is working efficiently, it is probably the best form of employment support.

I hope that the Minister will look carefully at the recommendations in the report, which I know he has had sight of. I welcome the fresh approach from the Government, who are taking a serious look at this issue, and thank the Minister for agreeing to meet me later today—it is interesting that the debate came on the same day. I also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for Employment, who gave a speech at the report launch. She said that it was an opportunity for “big change”, which was

“needed so that all blind and partially sighted people can play their full role in society”.

She kindly said that the report would be considered as an early submission to the upcoming employment White Paper, so I look forward to seeing what the White Paper includes in relation to a disability employment strategy.

Does the Minister agree that this issue is not just about the Department for Work and Pensions? We need a cross-Government approach that incorporates the Department for Business and Trade, the equalities office and others to ensure that we have a strategy that helps to shift employer attitudes. Will he commit to working with the Department for Business and Trade to ensure that we take an approach that truly supports employers to snap up all the amazing talent that is waiting for them and that they are currently missing out on?

The report recommends looking at practical steps to ensure that workplaces are inclusive. However, there is already brilliant guidance and best practice available, so in many cases this is not about reinventing the wheel, but about working collaboratively with other organisations. At the moment, we subscribe to accessibility standards for online spaces. I am keen to know whether the Government will look at legislating to ensure that all websites meet an accessibility standard requirement.

Finally—I raised this issue previously—will the Government look again at the Sense charity’s recommendation for a jobcentre technology fund? Such a fund would equip jobcentres with specialist assistive technology, such as screen-reading software, so that some disabled people are able to look for work in jobcentres. At the moment, no computers in jobcentres have specialist assistive technology. The recommendation seems like a nice, quick fix that could ensure that those spaces are inclusive for people who are looking for work.

I look forward to working with the Minister and his colleagues in implementing the recommendations and ensuring that Labour will deliver for all disabled people. At the end of the day, ensuring that recruitment practices are accessible and workplaces are supportive is not about charity; it is about doing what is right and just. It is also about helping employers and our economy to benefit from the skills and talent they are missing out on.

I will end by quoting an individual who appeared before the APPG. They said:

“The more blind and partially sighted people there are in the workforce, the more public assumptions and attitudes will be challenged. This will benefit blind and partially sighted people of all ages, and ultimately change…attitudes, which is the biggest barrier to thriving for all.”

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Lee Pitcher (Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme) (Lab)]

It is great to see you in the Chair, Dr Huq, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) on securing this hugely important debate.

I speak today from personal experience. My lovely wife has retinitis pigmentosa, a degenerative eye condition that has no cure or treatment. Julie has reached the stage where she uses a white cane and eventually, like her mum and uncle, she will probably need a guide dog to assist her. Those who watch “Strictly” may know that retinitis pigmentosa is the condition that comedian Chris McCausland has. Like Chris, Julie is an inspiration, not a gimmick, having recently learned to ski blind.

Julie has never let her disability define her; instead, she excels with the abilities that she does have. What we have learned together over 30 years, as our careers have progressed, is how those abilities can allow her to thrive, and I have to say that her workplaces have been enormously supportive of her.

I will focus on the use of technology and the importance of awareness, because the use of artificial intelligence is a game changer. Apps such as Seeing AI can narrate the world around the user. It harnesses the power of AI to open up the visual world, and describes nearby people, texts and objects. In the world of work, it supports people to identify colleagues and helps to facilitate a team culture. As long as those colleagues do not take offence at being taken for a 55-year-old man, as happened to me when the camera was held up to my face—I am in my mid-40s—it is an absolute gem of a research project.

Maximising the use of existing functionality is also important and remarkably useful. Adobe will read out pages of text, and people can ask ChatGPT to find those texts with a simple verbal instruction. My one ask is that when people use hashtags, they should use a capital letter for each new word because that ensures that the hashtag makes sense when read out.

The ability to work from home has opened up a world of opportunity, as meetings and conferences can be accessed from an environment that does not require travel. Although I often witness the kindness of the majority of people when Julie travels on buses or the underground to visit me or work in London, I also witness people who just barge into her as she gets on to an escalator slowly, or who tut because they cannot get past her. I get upset by that. Julie takes no notice because it has become her norm.

There is a broader need in society for people to better understand disabilities, and that starts with education and awareness in school. Will the Minister speak to the relevant Education Minister about how that can be raised as part of the curriculum review?

Future transport technology is also exciting. It may be that when we travel in future, we will jump into our own driverless vehicles and travel to our destinations. When Julie and I visited San Francisco, we saw a driverless taxi for the first time. At the moment, that can be a scary thought, culturally, but it offers a different kind of hope for travel independence in the future, and we should start to embrace what is out there across the globe.

It is great to have all those technologies and the ability to work from anywhere in any part of the world. It is also great to hear that the world is changing.

[Marsha De Cordova]

My hon. Friend is making a fantastic speech, and I am pleased that he is talking about technology. Does he agree that many technology companies have cottoned on to the fact that if they make their products inclusive, it is better business for them? Companies such as Apple, Microsoft and others are leading the way by ensuring that their apps and devices such as iPads are accessible, which will help not just blind and partially sighted people, but disabled people in general into work.

[Lee Pitcher]

I could not agree more. There is a whole world of innovation out there, involving companies such as Apple and Microsoft, and we need to embrace that and find a way to channel it into everyday society and use.

As I was saying, it is great to have those technologies, but having them out there is not enough. We need to find a way for people to know about them and use them. The amazing work of organisations such as the RNIB, Guide Dogs, and the Partially Sighted Society in my area of Doncaster is just incredible. They make us aware of what can be done at home and at work through the use of technology.

The challenge for us, and for the 2 million Julies out there in the UK, is how to amplify the work of those organisations to improve employment support for blind and partially sighted people even more, to help employers to understand the technologies and processes that give opportunities for all and allow everyone to thrive. I ask the Minister how he might raise awareness of AI use in the workplace to support adjustments to maximise those opportunities.

I finish with this: I ask you, Dr Huq, to imagine Julie on that slope for the first time, carefully traversing the snow, the ice and the undulations with her white cane, then ditching that cane for ski poles, and hurtling down the mountainside with skill, talent and ability. The “Wow!” that you see on our children’s faces says it all. She is a role model and an inspiration. Anything is achievable with determination and the right support and resources. Let us make sure that everyone gets the opportunity to apply those abilities at home, when travelling to and from work, and at work. I want to see a world where that “Wow!” is visible every day in the workplace.

[Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)]

Thank you for your sterling chairmanship, Dr Huq. I thank the hon. Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) for securing this debate on an issue that is extremely important, particularly in the light of the recent report. It is extremely helpful that we have the opportunity to debate this matter and engage with the Minister. As the Liberal Democrats work and pensions spokesperson, and as someone who is registered blind, I hope I can bring something to the table.

I am sorry to say that, as has been said, there is sadly still significant discrimination against blind and partially sighted people. Taxis, hotels and restaurants are pinch points where disabled people going about their business often hit hurdles. Hon. Members have alluded to the kindness of strangers, however, and before I had my guide dog, I would occasionally try to use the underground in London. My belief in humanity would always be reaffirmed, as there was much kindness from strangers—the milk of human kindness is out there.

As the Liberal Democrats spokesman, I endorse the findings of the report that we are debating. The most important thing is to ensure that we do things with people, rather than to people, so co-design is extremely important. Tackling discrimination must be part of our agenda, because sadly it is alive and well, and we must strengthen the legislation on it.

Part of the challenge is the legacy of more than a decade of Conservative-led Governments, who have not tacked these issues. Mental health is a particularly challenging area. People who are blind or partially sighted face challenges and hurdles in their lives, so we need to be alive to the fact that the black dog of depression and mental health issues may not be very far away from them. Enhancing our mental health services as part of our general approach would be a real step change in support.

Once upon a time—in the ’80s—I went to the Royal National College for the Blind in Hereford, so I belong to the 1980s Royal National College Facebook page. When I became aware that this debate was coming up, I reached out to people who had gone to the college to see how the world treats them now that they are 50-something, as I am. Although a number of them had positive employment experiences, others had experienced real challenges. Somebody in their 50s told me that they had had less than a year’s gainful employment during their life, which is shocking. They said that they were able to find voluntary work, but that there were blockages in the way to longer-term employment.

Access to Work is a significant issue, as delays to it have doubled to more than 55,000. We must tackle that issue to drive the positive change that we want to see. People from the Royal National College also spoke to me about the Disability Confident employer scheme, as they are not sure whether it is just virtue signalling and not worth the paper it is written on.

[Marsha De Cordova]

The hon. Member touches on the Disability Confident scheme. Does he agree that for the scheme to be worth the paper it is written on, it needs to have proper quality frameworks in place, so that those who become Disability Confident employers actually employ disabled people? Currently, some employers with that status do not employ a single disabled person.

[Steve Darling]

The hon. Member has clearly been reading my notes, because my next point was that someone cannot be a Disability Confident employer and not employ anyone disabled—she is spot on. I have made some inquiries in this area since getting elected in July, and the problem is that the Government do not measure Disability Confident employers. When I went to my local jobcentre, it said that it did not have to report up to top shop at all, and the Library was not aware of any monitoring by the Government. If we do not measure it, it does not count, so that is a real issue.

Going back to my trip down memory lane to the Royal National College for the Blind, one of the issues I heard from former college friends was that we should not have to go out and champion the Access to Work scheme ourselves; Government should be doing that. It should not be one of Government’s best kept secrets, but sadly it sometimes is. People also described it as an overcomplicated system that had resulted in their not being able to employ support workers as agents. They said it was too complicated and there were too many delays in obtaining support through that scheme.

I represent Torbay, and a resident there tells me that after 30 years of solid work for the national health service, she decided to change employment to Devon in Sight, an outstanding local charity that supports blind and visually impaired people across Devon. Sadly, though, it took three months for payments to come through from Access to Work, which left her with significant financial liabilities. Fortunately she had flexibility in her own finances, but if the next person was coming out of a period of employment and faced financially straitened circumstances, it could have resulted in their not being able to continue with their employment.

I am also aware of a lady from the midlands who was recently made redundant by a large national charity, for which she was a rehabilitation officer. She is now looking to change to a local charity undertaking similar work, but Access to Work is only offering her a support worker one day a week. That is impacting on her personal wellbeing, as she is having to take up the cudgels and battle the scheme over what seems a bizarre offer of help. I would like to challenge the Minister on how we ensure that, when we design new schemes, we are working with people; I would welcome some assurances on that.

I would also like assurances around a project plan for Access to Work. I mentioned that there are 55,000 people in the backlog. I would welcome assurances from the Minister on how we are going to tackle that, with a project plan to do so within a reasonable length of time. Have they done the sums around that? What assurance can the Minister give that it will be up to a 28-day turnaround? Finally, I would like some assurances around Disability Confident, so that it can be a scheme that is valuable, drives positive change and, most of all, drives positive culture change in our society, so that people who are blind or partially sighted can play the active part in our communities that they should be undertaking.

--- Later in debate ---

[Marsha De Cordova]

First, I thank all hon. and right hon. Members for their contributions. That includes the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), my hon. Friends the Members for Glenrothes and Mid Fife (Richard Baker) and for Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme (Lee Pitcher), the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling), and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for East Wiltshire (Danny Kruger).

I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security and Disability on his response to this important debate. His commitment to this issue really came across, as did his drive to make the change. It has been a good debate; every contribution brought something different and important, particularly on the opportunities of technology. I am a big advocate—forgive me—of Apple. Apple changed my life. When the iPhone and the iPad came out, they enabled me to read newspapers, finally. There are other providers out there, obviously, but it did really change my life.

Making use of AI is also important. I recently met representatives of a company called Be My Eyes, and I was bowled over by how its AI worked: you put these pretty swanky glasses on and look down, and the glasses read everything in front of you or describe what is around you. That will be game changing once they are available to everybody.

I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme for his skiing tips. I will have to have a proper chat with him, because I have always wanted to ski, but I was held back. Hearing that my hon. Friend’s wife is doing it, I am absolutely up for it now.

On a more serious point, it is a shame that, in 2024, we are still debating this issue. However, after 14 years, it is truly amazing that we now have a Labour Government who are committed to changing the experience, not only of blind and partially sighted people, but more importantly of disabled people as a whole, when it comes to engaging with the labour market.

I thank the Minister for Social Security and Disability. He is a friend, and I know he is a good listener, because I talk his ear off on these issues a lot. None the less, he is also a man of action, so I look forward to working with him and his colleagues.

I want to press my final point: this is not just about the Department for Work and Pensions; it is about working cross-Government, in particular with the Department for Business and Trade, the Department for Education and the Department of Health and Social Care, so that we can bring about the transformative change that will lead to changing attitudes and, most importantly, changing lives.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered employment support for blind and partially sighted people.

Oral Answers to Questions

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Liz Kendall]

The hon. Lady raises an extremely important question, which I have discussed with a hospice and other organisations such as Marie Curie and Sue Ryder in my own constituency. I want to look at how the system can be made to work as quickly and swiftly as possible, particularly for people at this very difficult time in life, and I would be happy for the Social Security Minister and my office to contact her directly to get more information.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

T7. Research by Sense has found that none of the computers in jobcentres across Britain are equipped with specialist assistive technology, and it has estimated that it would cost £5 million to ensure that every jobcentre had that specialist assistive technology. Will the Minister commit to introducing a jobcentre assistive technology fund in order to aid disabled people in their quest to look for work?

[The Minister for Employment (Alison McGovern)]

My hon. Friend is an absolute expert on this kind of inclusive change that we need to make to our employment support system so that we can help everybody, and I look forward to working with her on ideas just like that when we bring forward our White Paper in the autumn.