Licensing Act 2003 (Diamond Jubilee Licensing Hours) Order 2012
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I speak to this Motion in relation to a matter of business that the Government would like your Lordships’ House to take on Wednesday of this week—namely, consideration of Commons amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill.
During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill we on these Benches have risen on business Motions to speak to a number of matters, including Commons financial privilege. I apologise to the House for having to do so again today, but the lack of proper opportunities to raise points of order about the business of this House is a gap in the procedure of this House. I intend to write to the chairman of the Procedure Committee, the Chairman of Committees, proposing that the committee consider this issue. It will not be a surprise to the Leader of this House that I am raising my concerns today about the ping-pong arrangements for the Welfare Reform Bill, because we discussed the matter in a telephone call on Thursday.
The Government have decided that this business should take place on Wednesday as dinner-break business. We believe that that is completely inappropriate for this Bill, which is a major piece of government legislation that affects large numbers of people in this country, especially vulnerable ones. We on this side of the House believe that welfare in this country needs reform. However, we do not believe that some of the changes put forward in the Bill are the right ones. It is precisely because we believe in welfare reform that we believe that the Bill should at all times be handled and considered properly by this House. In line with that, we do not believe that considering what the Commons wishes to put before this House should be done as a piece of dinner-time business during another major Bill. This Bill and the House deserve better.
We also object to the way in which this business is being scheduled for your Lordships’ House. This House is not like the other place, and we rightly pride ourselves on self-regulation. This House is proud, too, that in many respects we proceed by agreement and consensus. This House wants to see these points reflected in the way that business is organised here, which in turn means the smooth running of the usual channels arrangement. We have a very good relationship between the usual channels of this House.
However, the usual channels, of course, occasionally have their ups and downs. We do not believe that announcing that a stage of a Bill of this magnitude will be taken as dinner-break business should be done without the agreement of the usual channels. To make such an announcement simply by changing the forthcoming business publication makes things that much worse, especially when it happens during a week when your Lordships' House is in recess. I believe that this could be to the inconvenience of the whole House, and we do not believe that this is what the Government should be doing. Whatever the scale of the Government’s political majority in this House, we do not believe that this is the sort of behaviour that your Lordships’ House wants to see.
We on these Benches have put all these points to the Government previously, but even at this late hour we urge them to reconsider. We urge them not to take this important parliamentary stage of this important Bill as dinner-break business on Wednesday, but to allow the matter to be considered by the House properly and in full. We urge the Government to reflect on this and to think again.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I am astonished and a little disappointed by what the noble Baroness has just said. I would understand it if there were some sort of government ploy to catch out your Lordships by giving the House just under a week’s notice of ping-pong, but everything that we have done on this Bill has been entirely precedented. It is well precedented to take more than one Bill in a day; it is well precedented to take divisible business, including ping-pong, in the dinner break; and it is well precedented not to take ping-pong as first business. What is so appalling about what the noble Baroness has just said is that each was done under her own Administration and, indeed, under her leadership.
I should remind the House that the Standing Orders allow us to take ping-pong not only at any point in the day but as last business and without notice, both of which are also well precedented. On this occasion, we advertised a date for this second round of ping-pong last Thursday, in time for each party’s Whip and group notices. The Government can hardly be accused of squirreling away the business when we have given the House nearly a whole week’s notice.
I am at a loss to understand what is going on. However, there was brought to my attention a twitter by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who calls himself—
Lord Strathclyde
A tweet, rather. He calls himself LordPhilofBrum. In it, he said:
“Appallingly the Govt have scheduled vote out of normal voting time on Wednesday evening”.
But the last time we voted on this issue it was 8.17 at night. The idea that we vote only before 7 pm is entirely new to me in the 25 years that I have been a Member of this House. This is a bogus protest and I very much hope that we can carry on with the Motion before us.
Social Security (Contributions) (Re-rating) Order 2012
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Office of Fair Trading
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I think that we should hear from the Liberal Democrats first.
Baroness Kramer
I shall try to be very brief. The Minister will be aware that for the ordinary consumer trying to deal with the combination of the OFT, Consumer Focus, Consumer Direct, the CBA and the Competition Commission, knowing where to go when there is an issue that needs to be raised is next to impossible. With the restructuring coming, the confusion is just adding laying layer upon layer. Would it be possible for the department to put some real clarity on its website to direct people under the current structure and with some clear indication where restructuring is going to take us?
House of Lords: Membership
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, in line with the coalition’s programme for government, the Government are working towards the objective of creating a second Chamber that reflects the share of the votes secured by the political parties at the last general election.
Lord Dubs
Oh. [Laughter.] My Lords, on 24 January, the Leader of the House said:
“There is no plan to pack the House with at least 60 government supporters. It would look absurd and it would be absurd”.—[Official Report, 24/1/12; col. 919.]
Given the Answer that he has just given to my Question, does he agree that it is doubtful whether he could find a single Member of this House who thinks that increasing its number is a good idea, both on grounds of cost and of making this House look even more absurd than it does with an increase in numbers? I ask the Government to think again about this stupid idea.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord can ask whatever he wants, but the Government’s position is the one I outlined in my original Answer. It is up to the Prime Minister, as it has been up to previous Prime Ministers, to decide whether he wishes to make more Peers. It is widely known that a draft Bill to reform your Lordships’ House is before a Joint Committee that may well turn into a Bill in the next Session of Parliament. But in any case, since the general election a number of deaths have sadly been recorded among your Lordships, which means that there has been a reduction from the high reached earlier on. Even if my right honourable friend the Prime Minister were to replace the number of Peers who have died, we would not be at the all-time high we saw recently.
The Lord Bishop of Chichester
My Lords, I cannot declare an interest as I speak from the Benches whose number is fixed. However, I would like to ask the Leader of the House to reflect upon what he said about the principle of the balance in relation to the very important role played by the Cross Benches in this House. Their relative influence could be changed significantly if the House were to be increased in size in the way he mentioned. Does he agree that an important question of constitutional principle is at stake here?
Lord Strathclyde
It is good to hear the right reverend Prelate speak in support of the Cross Benches of which I, too, am a great supporter. That is why I have consistently opposed the idea of a 100 per cent elected House. Indeed, I am also a supporter of the role of the right reverend Prelates. They make a substantial contribution to the workings of the House. I do not think that the proportion of the Cross Benches has changed very much over the course of the past 10 years. We know of the tremendous contribution they make, not just in votes in the House but also in making speeches, and I do not think it is planned to change that proportion under the current system. But if a Bill is put before Parliament, of course everything will be up for grabs.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, whose comments better reflect a mature and reasoned understanding of the challenges attending reform of the House of Lords? Are they those of the president of the Liberal Democrats, who has likened your Lordships’ House to the tyrannical Syrian regime, or those of their leader, Nick Clegg, who has described your Lordships as an “affront” to liberal democracy?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it was the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who originally coined the phrase “an affront to democracy” in relation to the House of Lords, so my right honourable friend is certainly not the first to say that. I am not responsible for what the president of the Liberal Democrats has said, but perhaps he should wander up the corridor from the House of Commons and see the real work that is done in this House, not least of all by my colleagues and friends who represent the Liberal Democrat Party here.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, could my noble friend help me by explaining the logic of a Government’s policy which seeks to reduce the size of the House of Commons in order to save public money while greatly increasing the size of the unelected House of Lords? Would I be cynical in thinking that this is an attempt to discredit this House in order to justify their plans for abolition?
Lord Strathclyde
No, my Lords, my noble friend would, unusually, be quite wrong in thinking that. The plain facts are, first, that the House of Lords has, in its relatively recent past, been considerably larger than it currently is and, secondly, that it is widely known and understood, which I think allows me to make this point one more time, that the House of Lords is incredibly good value. The cost per Peer is considerably smaller than that for Members of the House of Commons or indeed for Members of the European Parliament.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, since the election, the coalition Benches have swollen by 71 Peers —who are very welcome, of course—and my own Benches have been increased by 39. Does the rumoured rise in the number of coalition Peers have anything to do with the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of Parliament?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of Parliament simply indicates that the House of Lords is doing its work extremely well in suggesting changes to our well thought through legislation and asking the Government and the House of Commons to think again. The fact that the House of Commons does not always agree with the wisdom of your Lordships is its constitutional right. As for balancing out the numbers, it is again a well known fact, which I know noble Lords opposite do not like, that the Labour Party is for the first time ever the largest political group in opposition in the House of Lords. It does a very effective job. The coalition, meanwhile, still makes up only 37 per cent of the House. This is not a majoritarian House.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, since the Government have indicated that their current intention is to reduce the size of this House by about half, does it follow that those who are to be appointed before that happens are being told that they are being appointed for life, or for a period of years until the Lords’ structure is changed?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Jay, will be telling new Peers coming through the Appointments Commission, but certainly the Prime Minister is not telling anybody anything. [Laughter.] That is because he is not appointing any Peers just at the moment. A peerage is for life, but it does not necessarily give a right to sit and vote in Parliament. That is the difference.
Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, will the Leader of the House make a Statement to the House on Monday, first, on when the Welfare Reform Bill will return to this House following Commons consideration of Lords amendments yesterday and, secondly, on the procedural impact on the Bill of the declaration of Commons financial privilege in relation to a number of the Bill’s clauses?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I accept the invitation that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has made. First, the decision on when we will take Lords consideration of Commons amendments on the Welfare Reform Bill will be made in the usual channels in due course and will then appear on the Order Paper, which I hope will be for the benefit of the House. We will have the discussions in the usual channels as soon as possible.
Secondly, the clerks of the House stand ready to give any noble Lord procedural advice, but perhaps I may repeat something that I said yesterday afternoon: namely, that privilege is nothing new, having existed for nearly 350 years, and that any amendment with implications for public expenditure might involve privilege, but that it is a matter for another place, not for me or us. As the previous Clerk of the Parliaments stated in a recently published memorandum,
“until the Commons asserts its privilege, the Lords is fully entitled to debate and agree to amendments with privilege implications”.
There is nothing new in any of this. The Commons asserts its privilege in almost every Session. It has done so already this Session and did so regularly in the previous Parliament. Indeed, the previous Department of Work and Pensions Bill that attracted financial privilege was in the Session 2006-07 when the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, himself was the Minister.
It is also worth reminding noble Lords that the Joint Committee on Conventions, which sat under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham and reported in 2006, said:
“If the Commons have disagreed to Lords Amendments on grounds of financial privilege, it is contrary to convention for the Lords to send back Amendments in lieu which clearly invite the same response”.
The House took note, with approval, of that report on 16 January 2007. If the Commons has asserted privilege, it is simply not profitable for this House to persist.
I hope that that is a helpful explanation of where we are, but I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity of making this short statement.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I do not know whether this is in order, but if it is I would like to do it. My noble friend should know that concern about this matter is not confined to the other side of the House. I also think that, notwithstanding what has just been said or what the previous Government may or may not have done in 2006, this raises real questions about the relationship in practice as it has existed over many years between the two Houses of Parliament. I think that we are entitled to an opportunity to hear a Statement and ask questions about just where that relationship is now going.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I note all that has been said and the wisdom that has come from many Members of this House. I have two questions for the noble Lord. First, could he confirm that if the Government so wished they could waive financial privilege? Secondly, in the light of all that has been said in this very short debate and the importance of the work being undertaken by the Joint Committee in relation to conventions, I think that the House as a whole would welcome a Statement from the noble Lord on Monday to further discuss these issues.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that was a useful tour around the House on this matter of privilege. From time to time there are debases on privilege in this House, and it is entirely right that we should have them. But as I have explained, the matter of privilege is nothing to do with the Government, although the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, is entirely right that in certain instances the Government can waive financial privilege—if, for instance, they were to agree with an amendment made in the House of Lords or to part of an amendment. As I understand it, neither of those occurred on this occasion.
As the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, explained yesterday and again today, financial privilege is a matter for the House of Commons alone and, within the House of Commons, it is a matter for the Speaker on advice from the Clerks, not from the Government. I do not think that it would be useful for this House to debate endlessly or take a view of procedures in another place, any more than we would like another place to have a view about the procedures in this House. Both Houses have a longstanding convention that we do not debate the other’s practice, and I think that that is entirely right.
What I sense underlies much of this angst is what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, talked about, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth—about the possibility of a reform. I am the first to defend the rights and privileges of this House, as I have done continually since I have been Leader. It is perfectly true that in the scenario of an elected House over time, the procedures and powers in this House would evolve; it could well mean that we ended up with a stronger and more powerful House, better able to challenge decisions made in the House of Commons. But that is part of the evolution between the two Houses. It would be a reversal of the evolution that has taken place over the course of the past 100 years, or so, but there is no reason why that should happen. If the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, and others were to amend or wish to amend a Bill on the reform of the House to do that, of course that is entirely possible. I am not sure what the Labour Party’s position is on the powers of the second Chamber. Perhaps this is the kind of positive thinking—or critical thinking, or continual thinking—that the Labour Party needs to do, apparently, and it will let its views be known.
My noble friend Lord Lawson was such a distinguished Chancellor of Exchequer for many years. I do not have the statistics, but I cannot believe that when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer he cheered every time the House of Lords spent more money.
Lord Strathclyde
I am well aware that my noble friend managed perfectly well.
My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay asked whether I was going to make a Statement on whether or why this was not a money Bill. I must say that I have not the faintest idea why this was not a money Bill. I am sure there are very good, practical and well precedented reasons why social security legislation is not deemed to be a money Bill.
A number of noble Lords have suggested that I should make a Statement at some stage next week on privilege. Let me consider that. There is no point making a Statement if we do not add very much more to the amount of knowledge that we already have. We will have an opportunity to debate the Bill when it returns from the House of Commons and when we have decided on a date, but if I can shed any extra light then I will do so. It might be better to have a Question for Short Debate, where we can discuss these matters in the round.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I have to crave the indulgence of the House once more to quote something back at the noble Lord the Leader from when I was a transgressor on financial privilege. This is a very enlightening piece from Hansard. The noble Lord the Leader said:
“The Government therefore did not seek to debate the substance of my noble friend’s amendment in another place last night; they simply declared it unconstitutional and cited privilege. I do not think that that is good enough. The Government should not hide behind the principle of privilege as a matter of course, because what is constitutional should be a matter for the whole of Parliament. Parliament should not accept the use of the privilege amendment in cases of doubt simply to stifle debate, which is the impression that the Government have given in dealing with my noble friend’s amendments. After all, if the amendments of your Lordships’ House are not to be discussed, what is the point of this House ever agreeing to any amendments? I ask the noble Baroness”—
that is, me—
“to consider this matter carefully with her colleagues in another place, with Members of this House and, perhaps, with the Clerk of the Parliaments and his opposite number in another place to see how this issue can be resolved. If the rights of your Lordships are well understood—not only in their limits but in their reality and usefulness—then none of us should see those rights lightly eroded”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; cols. 1359-60.]
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is always nice to have my speeches quoted and of course we could do this all day. The noble Baroness could quote my rather good speeches and I could quote her equally good ones. In fact, I will requote what I also said to the noble Baroness in that same speech: that she had,
“rightly pointed out that there is a long established position that this House does not insist on an amendment where the other place cites financial privilege, and no one, least of all me, is trying to change that”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; col. 1359.]
I rest my case.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
My Lords, the question is that the original three Motions in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, be agreed to en bloc.
Motions agreed.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that at Report on the Bill there will be issues which relate, however indirectly, to the finances of the National Health Service. Perhaps I may ask the Leader of the House whether the Government could give an indication of the procedural implications for this House on the Welfare Reform Bill following a Statement on financial privilege by the Minister earlier today in the other place.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind invitation for some procedural advice. We will be dealing with the Welfare Reform Bill when it comes back from another place. I should say that matters for privilege are not a matter for the Government but a matter for the House of Commons and the Speaker of the House of Commons on advice from his clerks. The position of privilege has of course been jealously guarded by the House of Commons since 1671. It is well precedented and there is nothing unusual, although the second Chamber might always think that the Commons using financial privilege is a little unfair.
We will get to that Bill in due course. I cannot comment on the Health and Social Care Bill, which is of course the subject of the Motion before us now, as to what the Government’s attitude will be on defeats. But, as I said earlier, there is nothing unusual about financial privilege being prayed in aid. Since there are many former Members of another place present in this House I am sure that they will readily understand.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, the Leader of the House has given us a proper and guarded answer to quite a difficult question. However, does he not agree that this encapsulates the kind of problem which needs to be resolved before we have a directly elected second Chamber? It goes to the heart of one of the issues that has been accepted as the norm by both Houses for many decades but which would undoubtedly be challenged time and again in the event of a directly elected House. I do not expect the noble Lord to give an immediate answer now—he will give a guarded response—but can I try to be helpful and suggest that this is the kind of issue which the committee of my noble friend Lord Richard should look at, and that that may involve an extension of the period of time the committee needs to consider it? But it is clearly issues like this—alongside, in relation to an Oral Question taken earlier, issues like the impact of a referendum in Scotland—which need to be considered by the Joint Committee before we proceed any further.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, perhaps I may ask a question of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I ask him as the Leader of the whole House—which I know he is very mindful and respectful of—and not just as the leader of a government coalition party. Whenever we deal with a social security Bill—apart from turning negative regulations into affirmative regulations—that almost inevitably involves expenditure, either increasing it or reducing it. That may also apply to health Bills and transport Bills. If, on any choosing of the Speaker and one of the noble Lord’s right honourable friends at the other end in a position of authority, the claim can be made that that is financial privilege—this is before the Speaker has even ruled on it, so clearly there is a government view so far as I can tell; I stand to be corrected—and if any Bill involving any element of expenditure, including on welfare, pensions, health and education, can at the fiat of the House of Commons be ruled as money and therefore privilege, then, taking the noble Lord’s statement that this House is a part-time House, it will become a very part-time House indeed because we might as well go home.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, let me deal with the two questions put by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. My noble friend Lord Howe, who is an expert on these matters, will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. In response to the noble Baroness, as I said earlier, this is a matter for the House of Commons; it is not a matter for me. It is the Speaker who takes a view on the advice of the clerks. I would not be at all surprised if they had had a discussion with the Government, but there is nothing new in any of this. No procedure has changed and no substantive law or practice has done so. It is perfectly possible for this House to suggest and recommend changes to Bills over a whole range of issues, no doubt including financial ones. How the House of Commons deals with those is a matter for that House.
I thought that the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, were precisely the kind of points that he might make if a “reform of the second Chamber” Bill were brought forward. I would not dream of trespassing on matters which are the preserve of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and his Joint Committee. I am sure that they will have taken account of what the noble Lord said.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. Perhaps I may come back to a point he raised. I am sure that the procedure was followed appropriately in the other place and I assume that the Government made application to the Speaker. The question is whether it was wise for the Government to use this process in this place, because, essentially, they are hiding behind parliamentary procedure to curtail consideration of the amendments that your Lordships passed on the Welfare Reform Bill. In essence, my noble friend has put it absolutely right: if the Government continue to do this on these Bills, our role as a revising Chamber is effectively undermined.
Lord Strathclyde
I simply disagree with the noble Lord. This situation has existed for 350 years. It was as though the noble Lord were suggesting that the Government had found some new ploy to stop the will of the House of Lords. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, will agree that we are an unelected House. The House of Commons is an elected House. It has protected its financial privilege since 1671. Nothing has changed for the debates that we will no doubt have on the health Bill and the welfare Bill.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I wish to question the timing of such a decision on the part of the Speaker. It seems somewhat of a waste of time if your Lordships debate provisions which turn out to be completely sacrosanct because of the decision on privilege made at the other end. The expense involved in your Lordships coming here and taking part seems a waste of taxpayers’ money at a time of considerable austerity if the whole procedure is useless. I suggest that the timing of such decisions needs to be looked at.
Lord Elton
Would my noble friend enlighten me? I think I know the answer to this, but I may well be wrong: the more an amendment changes the volume of money in issue, the more likely a Bill is to become a money Bill. If that is the case, we all know where we are: it is just a question of how high the bar is.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am rapidly becoming an expert on privilege, which I was not expecting a few moments ago. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, because he explained with his experience the process of deciding privilege in another place, which I repeat is not a matter for me as a member of the Government. Nor is it a matter for the Government or a Member of this House. It is something that has been jealously guarded by the House of Commons for many years.
My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, raise the same question, which is how we could be pre-warned. I am not sure how that process could take place because we do not know what the Government will lose or what amendments the House of Lords will press to a Division. I dare say that we could. I am thinking as I am speaking, which is always a dangerous thing to do from the Dispatch Box, about a system where amendments might be deemed to be likely to invoke privilege by the House of Commons. But I suspect we can probably do that ourselves. Maybe my noble friend Lord Elton was correct in saying that amendments that mean a substantial increase in expenditure of public spending are more likely to invoke privilege than those that do not. Perhaps that is the way to go.
I wonder if we are profiting in continuing this debate now. Would it not be better to wait until the Welfare Reform Bill returns from the House of Commons with its amendments to see if privilege has been invoked? There is then a well trodden process in this House. I do not think that the House wastes its time by debating the issues. We do not insist on all the amendments that we pass in this House. We sent them back to the House of Commons to get the Government and the House of Commons to think again. If they have thought again and invoked financial privilege, we should let the matter rest.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, I have listened to the noble Lords, Lord Martin of Springburn and the Leader of the House. They both claim, each in their different way, that this is a wholly independent procedure. Are we really to believe that one morning the Speaker gets up and says, “Eureka, I’m going to decide whether this is financial privilege or not”? Who initiates the process? It is hard to believe there was not a nudge and a wink from the Government to try to save their own blushes.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, is not the reality that when the Government have run out of arguments and patience they ask the Speaker if he will invoke financial privilege? They cross their fingers and hope that he will do so. Do this Government actually want the House of Lords to operate as a revising Chamber or not?
Lord Strathclyde
I do find it faintly comical that former Members of the House of the Commons, who would have died in a ditch to preserve and protect financial privilege, decide to take a completely different view as soon as they are translated into Members of this House. I said earlier that surely the time for us to have this debate is when we are faced with the facts of the Bill, with the amendments from the House of Commons. We will have the benefit of seeing the debate that is taking place in the House of Commons as we speak. Would that not be a better way of proceeding? I very much hope that we will be able to pass this Motion from my noble friend Lord Howe, unless he wishes to add anything to the questions that were put to him.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, perhaps I could address the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, about my department’s risk register. When I last spoke to the House on this matter, I promised to use my best endeavours to ensure that the appeal hearing on the matter of the risk register took place at the earliest possible date. As a result of discussions between my department and the tribunal that will hear the Government’s appeal, that date was brought forward from the one that I originally announced to 5 and 6 March. I believe that is a welcome development. The outcome of the appeal will not be known until a few days after that. It is of course a matter for the tribunal.
As regards the timing of Third Reading, the noble Lord will know that it is a matter for the usual channels in this House. I am aware that there is a Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Owen, which invites the House to consider the matter of the department’s risk register before the House goes into Third Reading on the Bill. I suggest that once the timing of the appeal outcome and of Third Reading are known, it would be appropriate to revisit this question. However, it is perhaps a little early to decide now quite what the best order of events should be.
House of Lords: Scottish Referendum
Lord Strathclyde Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the Government can proceed only on the current constitutional framework. We will of course take all relevant factors into account when planning the timetable for reform.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am enormously grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for that illuminating response. Remarkably, it appears that Mr Clegg’s Bill is to be the centrepiece of the Government's legislative programme for the next Session. However, this will be in advance of the outcome of the Scottish referendum which could—I am sure the noble Lord will agree—have profound constitutional significance for the United Kingdom. How will the Government take that into account? Furthermore, as Scotland is to have a referendum, why on earth are the British people not to be allowed one on Lords reform?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there were a number of questions there. The noble Lord is right that it would have profound constitutional implications for the United Kingdom if there were to be a referendum result in Scotland in favour of breaking up the United Kingdom. However, as I said in my Answer, we can proceed only on the current constitutional framework. If there is a Scottish referendum, I for one—and, I am sure, the noble Lord for another—will campaign in favour of retaining the United Kingdom. The Government of course considered the case for a referendum on the future of the House of Lords. However, given that all three manifestos in the most recent election were remarkably similar on reform of the House, we feel that people's views have already been taken into account.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, the manifestos were rather different. However, does my noble friend agree that those of us who are concerned about the future of the United Kingdom must not take the people of Scotland for granted and must not appear to patronise them? To anticipate the results of the Scottish referendum would seem to do precisely that. Therefore, is there not the strongest possible case for getting the issue decided before we turn to House of Lords reform?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, of course we must neither patronise nor anticipate. On the other hand, normal work should not come to a halt because of a possible referendum. That is why we are carrying on with our stated proposal for reform of the second Chamber.
Lord Kakkar
My Lords, if the Scottish people were to determine that their constitutional destiny lay with the devo-max model, would it be appropriate for them to participate in elections for the Deputy Prime Minister’s senate in 2015?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, a rather different question is raised by the noble Lord, and I am not sure that I know entirely what is meant by this phrase devo-max.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I hear some moaning from the other side, but I expect that if we asked three of them what they thought devo-max meant we would get four different answers. It would probably be the same if we asked them their views on House of Lords reform. The point is that any different arrangement of the United Kingdom would of course have an impact on an elected House, in the same way as it would have an impact on the House of Commons.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I am not going to ask about devo-max. However, last week, in reply to a question from my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, the Leader of the House gave an unequivocal reply that no list of new Peers is being proposed. In the Daily Telegraph today he was quoted as saying that there is a new list, and indeed that the SNP has been asked to nominate. Would he care to clarify the position?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I stand by my original answer. It is, of course, up to the Prime Minister to decide when and if he comes forward with a list. I am not aware that he has any current plans to do so. I certainly voiced a view that there is no reason why there should not be a Scottish nationalist in this House, but I do not believe that any has been proposed.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, would it not be wise to allow the United Kingdom to reach consensual decisions about the role, powers and composition of this House when the future political relationships of all the constituent nations of the country have been settled?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not think there is any requirement for us to wait on a referendum on breaking up the United Kingdom, which may not take place until the end of this Parliament, before legislating on what a future second Chamber will look like. However, as I said in my earlier Answer—which I think is not out of keeping with what my noble friend has just said—if the relevant factors were to change, we would take them into account when planning the long-term timetable for reform.
Lord Cunningham of Felling
My Lords, would not the best way of improving Scottish influence on proposals for House of Lords reform be to abandon the current, deeply flawed draft Bill, and replace it with support for the excellent Bill tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, which commands wide-ranging respect in this House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am well aware of the respect with which it is held in this House. However, it does fly in the face of the three manifestos on which the Members of the House of Commons were elected only 18 months ago.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, is it not the case that because the people of this country had no chance to vote for any party except those that support Lords reform, they ought to be afforded such an opportunity?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that is a good point: when all the parties are united, there is no room for much opposition. However, if a Bill is published after the gracious Speech, I am sure that there will be very effective debate within Parliament, because, as I have said before, very often the differences on House of Lords reform exist within the parties rather than between them.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, to revert to an earlier answer, why does my noble friend think that the world is not going to come to an end if a Bill to abolish the House of Lords is introduced into your Lordships' House?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am always wary of my noble friend winning this sort of competition to speak in the House. I rather wish that I had taken the question from the noble Lord, Lord Low.
EU Council
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, it may now be a convenient moment for me to repeat a Statement made by the Prime Minister earlier this afternoon on the European Council. The Statement goes as follows:
“With permission, I would like to make a Statement on yesterday’s informal European Council. Countries right across Europe need bold action to recover their economic dynamism, to get to grips with their debts and to secure growth and jobs for the future, and that was rightly the focus of this Council.
First, we agreed important measures needed to restore Europe’s competitiveness. Next we discussed the separate intergovernmental treaty on fiscal discipline in the eurozone. Finally, we issued a statement on Iran, Syria and Burma. Let me take each in turn.
Britain’s agenda in Europe is to promote growth, competitiveness and jobs. We have repeatedly said that the best way that the EU can drive growth and create jobs is to complete the single market; to establish trade deals with the fastest growing parts of the world; and to cut the regulatory burdens on business. At this Council, we made important progress on all these issues. We agreed to establish a fully functioning single market in services, where there are still 4,700 professions across Europe to which access is regulated by government; and, in digital, where there are over a dozen separate copyright regimes in what should be one single market, we will take action to secure what should be a fast-growing area right across Europe. Together, these changes in services and digital alone could add more than 6 per cent to EU GDP within 10 years.
We also agreed to complete the energy single market, which has the potential to cut costs for businesses and consumers across Europe. On free trade, we said that:
‘2012 should be a decisive year to move ahead on trade agreements with major partners’,
such as Japan, India, Canada and the United States, and on regulation we agreed a growth test to ensure,
‘that all actions at the European Union level fully support … growth and job creation’.
We also agreed to reduce regulatory burdens, especially for SMEs and microenterprises, and to complete a patent package to support innovation. This has been discussed in Europe for well over a decade and, finally, we are making decisive progress.
Next, on the eurozone, we want the eurozone to sort out its problems. They are having a chilling effect on our own economy and tackling them is one of the best ways in which we can help secure growth, both here in Britain and right across Europe. As I have repeatedly said, short-term steps must be taken—and taken properly. There was the so-called October package. Europe’s banks must be recapitalised properly. The uncertainty in Greece must be brought decisively to an end, and the firewall needs to be big enough to deal with the full scale of the crisis and the potential contagion. In the longer term, proper fiscal discipline in the eurozone is clearly an important part of the solution, and something that Britain recognises is necessary.
The question has never been about whether there should be greater fiscal discipline in the eurozone but rather how it should be achieved. I went to the European Council last December prepared to agree a treaty of all 27 countries, but only if there were proper safeguards for Britain. I did not get those safeguards, so I vetoed the treaty. As a result, eurozone countries and others are now making separate arrangements outside the EU treaties for strengthening budgetary discipline, including ensuring that there are much tougher rules on deficits. So, at this Council, 25 EU member states agreed a new treaty outside of the European Union. Britain and the Czech Republic have not signed up, and we will not be taking part.
Let me deal directly with the issue of the institutions. The new agreement sets out roles for the European Commission and the European Court of Justice. While some of those roles are already permitted through existing treaties, there are legal questions about what is planned. As I said, it is in Britain’s interests that the eurozone sorts out its problems. It is also in our interests that the new agreement outside the EU is restricted to issues of fiscal union and does not encroach on the single market. The new intergovernmental agreement is absolutely explicit and clear that it cannot encroach on the competencies of the European Union and that they must not take measures that in any way undermine the EU single market. Nevertheless, I made it clear that we will watch this closely and if necessary, we will take action—including legal action—if our national interests are threatened by the misuse of the institutions.
The principle that the EU institutions should act only with the explicit authorisation of all member states remains, so let me be clear: this is a treaty outside the EU. We are not signing it, we are not ratifying it, we are not part of it and it places no obligations on the United Kingdom. It does not have the force of EU law for us, nor does it have the force of EU law for the EU institutions or for the countries that have signed it, and there will be no inner group of European countries distorting the single market from inside the EU treaty. That is the fundamental protection we secured with our veto in December, and that protection remains.
Finally, we also made an important statement on developments in Iran, Burma and Syria. Britain has played a leading role in getting Europe to act together on each of these areas. On Iran, last week all EU countries agreed an unprecedented oil embargo, which shows our determination to keep up the pressure on the regime to turn away from any plans to develop nuclear weapons.
In Burma, Aung Sang Suu Kyi has for years been an inspiration to her people and the world. Britain has supported her at every stage and been at the forefront of EU sanctions. Now there are signs of a new moment of opportunity for democracy and we should be prepared to relax these sanctions, but only in stages and in response to reforms. When I spoke to Aung Sang Suu Kyi on Saturday, she emphasised the importance of credible and free by-elections in April. I assure the House that we will be watching them very closely.
On Syria, the Council condemned the continuing violence and repression of the Syrian people. Reports suggest that more than 60 people were killed on the streets of Syria last week alone. In total, more than 5,000 people have been killed, 400 children murdered and tens of thousands of people detained. Today the Foreign Secretary is in New York to support the Arab League’s call for Security Council action condemning the repression and supporting a transition of power. All 27 EU members backed that call for UN action, and if the violence does not end we agreed that we will tighten EU sanctions further. Our message is clear: we will stand with the Syrian people. It is time for all members of the UN Security Council to live up to their responsibilities instead of shielding those who have blood on their hands. The killing must stop and President Assad must stand aside.
In conclusion, Mr Speaker, this was an important Council for Britain. On competitiveness, the single market and trade, Britain is setting the agenda. On action to face down dictators and dangerous regimes in Iran and Syria, Britain is leading the way, and by saying no to a new EU treaty we have protected Britain’s interests. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I wholly understand why the noble Baroness has to trot out this stuff, which she no doubt gets from the shadow Cabinet, but it is far removed from reality. I very much welcome her own welcome and support for our position and indeed Europe’s position on Syria, Iran and Burma, but when it comes to the eurozone intergovernmental treaty, she has a fundamental misunderstanding of what has been going on over the past couple of months. What we were seeking to defend in the December European Council were British interests, and that is what we did by vetoing a treaty which we believe would fundamentally impact British interests in a negative way. This treaty does not because we are wholly in favour of the countries of the eurozone, and others, sorting out their own fiscal problems, and have supported them in creating this intergovernmental treaty. Therefore, I do not regard it as a failure of diplomacy at all. Indeed, Article 2 of this treaty demonstrates that the treaty shall not encroach upon the competences of the European Union. That is an important safeguard for us.
The noble Baroness asked about the economic strategy and the fiscal compact and whether or not it will work. Most international commentators now agree—and have done so for some time—with the position that the United Kingdom Government have taken over the past 20 months of austerity. It is true that the countries of the eurozone are now seeing that that is the sensible way forward and believe that you cannot buy your way out of a debt crisis. The fact that the informal council spent so much time talking about the growth strategy, about employment, about exports and about completing trade rounds is an indication that throughout Europe we share similar problems, including those of youth unemployment. However, if you look at the forecast that is being made by most international commentators, you will see that Britain, which has had to take the worst of the medicine first, is in the best position for long-term growth. It would be good if the noble Baroness and her party could support us in that.
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne
Does my noble friend agree that, whereas, of course, the Government were fully entitled to decline to sign the new treaty, it was also very wise not to try to deny the use of the European Union institutions to those countries that chose to sign the treaty? To attempt to do so would have been to risk the use against us of qualified majority voting as the normal legislative tool in areas of vital importance to us, such as financial services, to our great detriment?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is always nice to welcome a question from my noble friend on this matter. On this occasion, we chose to reserve our position on the treaty, at least in part, because we recognise that there are problems within the eurozone that need to be tackled. We believe that we are using that reservation to watch the operation of the treaty closely and, if necessary, we will be able to take action if our national interests are threatened. However, the principle that EU institutions can be used only when there is permission from all 27 member states has been safeguarded. Of course, we have a number of legal concerns on the use of the institutions but we do not want to hold up the eurozone doing what is necessary to solve the crisis, as long as it does not damage our national interests.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, first, in the Statement there is the intention finally to close these free trade agreements with countries such as India. The UK India Business Council, of which I am president, has been asking for this EU-India treaty for years now. Do the Government honestly think that, with the present crisis, it is realistic to be able to conclude such treaties at this time? Secondly, the Government keep talking about wanting fiscal discipline to sort out the eurozone crisis. Can the Government get real? In the growth and stability pact there was no discipline; even Germany did not fulfil the requirements to join the euro when it did so. When are the Government ever going to be able to impose fiscal discipline when there is no sovereign union throughout the united states of Europe? There will never be a united states of Europe. Do the Government think that the Greek crisis will just go away? If Greece defaults, will there be contagion throughout Europe? Are we prepared for that contagion?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord asks me a load of questions at the end of his intervention which are not my or the Government’s responsibility. They are very difficult questions to answer. We all have to hope that the steps that the eurozone countries are taking are the right ones to prevent the contagion of which he speaks. We hope that they have done that. People like me, who rather oppose a single currency, have pointed out these problems for many years. It is hard to see how a currency union can work without greater political and fiscal union. It may well be that the countries of the eurozone are heading in that direction.
On the noble Lord's first question about international treaties between the EU and other countries, including India, it is, at least in part, because of the state that we find ourselves in and the lack of moving forward on the Doha trade round that I feel confident that the statement made yesterday in Brussels is heading in the right direction. There is a lot of political force behind it and I am sure that the whole House will welcome this strong declaration of coming forward with a long-term treaty between the EU and India.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the tone of the Statement, which I am grateful to him for repeating, was rather arrogant when it spoke about Britain “setting the agenda” and “leading the way”? That is the sort of leadership that this country can well do without—isolating ourselves from the mainstream of Europe. Will the Leader of the House also acknowledge that although he spoke about defending our interests, there is a lot to learn from Mrs Thatcher? She never sought to defend our interests by leaving a Council meeting and walking out. The way she defended our interests was to stay and fight for them. I have a specific question to the Minister. When he talks in the Statement about a fully functioning single market in services, is that supposed to include financial services?
Lord Strathclyde
Very much so, my Lords. We want to see the completion of a single market and the digital economy. It is not arrogant to say that the United Kingdom has been at the forefront of the growth agenda. It is Britain that has been pointing out the dangers of overcentralisation, overbureaucratising, and overexpensive institutions that militate against the interests of the free market that will in the long term provide the jobs we need, not just in this country but throughout Europe.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Prime Minister is absolutely right not to join the proposed new treaty and to distinguish it from the existing treaty? Is he not also right to say that it is essential for the eurozone to sort out its problems? The problem with doing that has been that it has confused the debt problem with the exchange rate problem. The reality as far as Greece, for example, is concerned is that it is inconceivable that it will become competitive at the present exchange rate, however much it is bailed out. There is therefore no way that these matters will be solved until certainly Greece, and perhaps others—one must hope not—leave the eurozone. It is crucial that if they do so, the period of transition should be as brief as possible. The difficulty is that we do not have available in terms of notes and coins a currency that will enable such countries to leave, quite apart from the dreadful problems there will be in the transition over the need to impose exchange controls, which one must doubt the Greek Government’s ability to do. Until that side of things is sorted out, no amount of bailout or fiscal co-ordination will solve the problems of the eurozone.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s words on the principle of the position we took yesterday at the informal Council. As to what he said about the desirability of the eurozone solving its problems, I completely agree and that is very much one of the reasons why what happened yesterday happened. However, some of my noble friend’s analysis is not really a matter for me or the British Government, although we wish the euro well. These matters will no doubt be taken up within the eurozone. There are real challenges for countries such as Greece and, within the eurozone, the balance of trade between different countries. They have chosen a route along which they wish to try to solve this matter, and we should wish them well in their attempt to do so.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I join the noble Lord, Lord Brittan, in saying that the Prime Minister was extremely well advised not to contest the use of the institutions in the context of this intergovernmental agreement. I would only add, gently, that you cannot reserve your position on a decision that you are not a party to.
Can the Minister now answer a question that I have been asking with a certain persistence without getting any answers: what provisions in the intergovernmental agreement are objectionable to the British Government? He has just spoken warmly about Article 2, and I imagine that he could speak quite warmly about most of the other articles, so why are we not joining the agreement? It is a little difficult to understand. Perhaps the Prime Minister let the cat out of the bag when, with a look of some relief on his face—at least it looked like that on my television set—he said, “Nothing to sign. Nothing to ratify”—and, he might have added, “Nothing to make me run the gauntlet of my Back-Benchers”.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if those were his motivations, there would be nothing wrong in that. In fact, the Prime Minister made it entirely clear in response to questions and in his Statement on the December Council that his only aim was to preserve British interests. At the December Council, he asked for certain safeguards and those safeguards were not offered. Hence, we have got to the current position.
As the noble Lord knows extremely well, we have a number of legal concerns about the treaty, particularly on the use of the EU institutions, but, as I said, it is in our national interest for the eurozone to solve its problems. That is why we are reserving our position. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asks my noble friend Lord Howell questions from time to time. He will have an opportunity to have another go in a couple of weeks’ time, when we are having an all-day debate on the European Union.
We will be watching developments very carefully over the next few weeks and months, and if there is any sign that they will encroach, particularly on the single market, we will seek to take appropriate action.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, it is at least reassuring that the Prime Minister now appears to be conducting our diplomacy in the EU in a cool, calm and reasoned fashion, although it is very worrying that we shall not, apparently, even be in the room as observers when the 25 meet regularly from now on.
However, I sincerely congratulate the Government on their contribution to the achievement of the single market conclusions of the Council, particularly in relation to energy. I hope that there will be follow-through and implementation.
If Greece defaults, which it may, there may be contagion. If there is contagion, there would be a very serious banking crisis. In those circumstances, it would be extremely expensive for us to bail out our banks. Would it not be much cheaper now to make a more modest contribution to the new financial stability fund, the IMF or otherwise to the firewall which we keep nagging our European partners that they should be putting together without us, up to now, being willing to contribute at all?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is not my role, nor that of the Government, nor is it appropriate to speculate on the position of Greece. Greece has to make its own decisions on that question. Our view is that it is important that all parties should stick to the deal agreed in October and that all the elements of that package, including the PSI, are finalised and implemented without further delay. We are not contributing directly to more bailouts of the eurozone, as the noble Lord knows. One thing that we agreed earlier through the new ESM is that we are extracting the United Kingdom from having to pay for eurozone bailouts in future. IMF payments are of course an entirely different matter, but we believe that the IMF is there to lend support to a country, not to a currency.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, this is one Statement on which the Prime Minister and the coalition Government should be congratulated. There is total agreement on matters relating to the agenda on jobs and growth. Does the Leader agree that now that we are winning the argument we should be looking to work very closely with our allies, including Italy and Spain, to spell out a truly ambitious and far-reaching plan for delivering jobs and growth from now through to 2015?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, if I may say so, that was an entirely sensible and constructive question from my noble friend Lord Dholakia. We believe that the statement made by the European Union yesterday was an important signal about a change of direction in trying to create a proper market for jobs, services and growth. Of course, we will be working with our allies—not just with the European Commission but with countries such as France, Spain and Italy—so that we can all learn from each other what works, particularly with regard to apprenticeships, and in the long term that will benefit us all.
Lord Richard
My Lords, three or four times this afternoon in making his Statement the noble Lord has referred to the fact that at the December meeting the Prime Minister was forced to cast his veto because he did not get the safeguards that he required to protect British interests. The difficulty is that the Government will not tell us what safeguards he was demanding and, until we know that, we cannot tell whether the veto was sensible. Perhaps the noble Lord could draw the veil a little this afternoon. There seems to be an atmosphere of reflective penance on the part of the government Benches today. Can he tell us what safeguards the Prime Minister was demanding that he did not get, as a result of which he felt obliged to cast the veto?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is always beguiling to be asked questions by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, in that manner. The events of the December Council were in fact quite a while ago and I do not have a list of all the great safeguards that we wanted.
Lord Strathclyde
However, basically we wanted to protect the single market. We also wanted to make sure that we were safeguarded from a financial transaction tax that would have an unfair bearing on Britain within Europe. Unless it was applied on a global scale, we were not going to support it. The noble Lord shakes his head as though I have not been helpful but, if not to safeguard British interests, why else would the Prime Minister have vetoed it?
Lord Willoughby de Broke
My Lords, I want to follow the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, in reference to competition. Is not this Council statement just a rehash of the European agenda, which was such a notable failure? Does the Minister agree that, as usual, it is all words and no action? Do not figures of 23 million unemployed in the European Union and 51 per cent youth unemployment in Spain show that the European Union is a total failure for its citizens? Would it not be much better to leave before we get sucked even further into the euro mire?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the views of the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, on this are extremely well known. He believes that there should be a referendum in the United Kingdom about leaving the EU or that the United Kingdom should just leave the European Union as soon as possible. That view is not shared by this Government. We think that in the past the EU has gone in the wrong direction but we are hopeful. The noble Lord may not have read the European Commission’s statement but I hope that he will take the opportunity to do so. I am glad to see he is indicating that he has read it. I think he should be heartened by much of what was said in it about growth, jobs, deregulation and single markets, which will aid prosperity in the long term.
Lord Trimble
My Lords, my noble friend the Leader of the House has made reference to implementing as soon as possible the matters agreed last October. However, is that realistic? Last October, there was reference to agreeing a private sector reduction of Greek bonds by 50 per cent. There has been no agreement, and apparently officials are now looking for a reduction in value of 70 per cent, although the chance of there being agreement on that is minimal. Other institutions talk about firewalls and contagion. The EFSF was created but has turned out to be a complete damp squib. There is now talk of bringing forward the next measure but it is similar in character and is also likely to be ineffective. I appreciate that my noble friend has to be diplomatic but is not the reality that that agenda and those agreements are not going to work with regard to Greece? As my noble friend Lord Higgins said, Greece will have to leave. The euro has been a failure as far as it and other countries are concerned, and the sooner the people who are trying to give that leadership to Europe get their heads round that, the better.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is not just diplomatic to say that these are issues that Greece and the other countries of the eurozone need to sort out; it is common sense. My noble friend's gloomy view may come to pass, but we should all fear that. There is a chilling effect on the economy already because of the crisis in the eurozone, and it would be considerably worse if there was a real banking problem in the whole of the eurozone and the whole of Europe, which would leak into us. Therefore, we urge the countries of the eurozone to solve their problem. With the intergovernmental treaty, we have given them the best opportunity to do so.
Energy: Tariffs
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Lord Marland
My Lords, I must admit that I was hoping that the noble Baroness would say well done on incurring only £66,400 of costs. It is a curious old world when we save the consumer £1.5 billion at a cost of £66,400 and are told that we should declare to the nearest penny. Let us look at what we are taking to court. This is one of the most ridiculous schemes that have ever been dreamt up. It is already going to cost the consumer £7 billion for £400 million of net present value.
Lord Marland
Exactly; it is ridiculous. That is on a product where you need electricity when the sun does not shine. It will produce 0.1 per cent of our electricity supply and it does not target the needy or consumers. This is one of the most ridiculous policies ever dreamt up. Guess who did it: yes, the dying embers of the Labour Government.
Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions
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Lord Strathclyde
That notwithstanding the resolution of this House of 27 June 2011, it be an instruction to the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions that it should report by 15 March 2012.